No one does great things alone. We need friends, spouses, siblings, colleagues, and others we can turn to for support. So on today’s episode, we’re celebrating partnerships.
Hillary speaks with Call Your Girlfriend podcast co-hosts Aminatou Sow and Ann Friedman, best friends whose bestselling book, Big Friendship: How We Keep Each Other Close, offers an honest and insightful examination of how to make and maintain friendships meant to last. Hillary also talks with Pennsylvania Lieutenant Governor and Second Lady John and Gisele Fetterman, whose shared commitment to civil service—and good humor—have kept their partnership strong. And she meets brother-sister computer programming duo Ileana and Jorge Valdez, the creators of OKZoomer, a dating site for college students stuck at home.
Aminatou Sow is a digital strategist, writer, influencer, and co-founder of Tech LadyMafia, an organization of women in the tech industry.
Ann Friedman is a journalist and contributor to New York magazine, The Los Angeles Times, and The Gentlewoman.
John Fetterman is the 24th Lieutenant Governor of Pennsylvania and currently running for U.S. Senate representing his home state.
Gisele Barreto Fetterman contributes to her community through nonprofit service, founding Freestore 15104 and co-founding For Good Pgh and 412 Food Rescue.
Read a full transcript here.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.
You know, we've heard from a lot of amazing people
on this podcast, like Pamala Harris and Demanda Gorman and
Nancy Pelosi and Stacy Abrahams and Maria Ressa, Tan France,
(00:21):
Jose Andreas, and that's just to name a few. But
I know all of these people would be quick to
tell you that no one does great things alone. We
need friends, spouses, partners, siblings, colleagues, and others we can
turn to for support who will keep us motivated and
hold us accountable. So on today's episode, we're celebrating partnerships.
(00:46):
I'll be talking to Lieutenant Governor and Second Lady of
Pennsylvania John and Giselle Fetterman about their shared commitment to
public service. And I'll be talking to Jorge and Ilana Valdez,
a brother sister team who found a creative new way
to help thousands of college students find friendships and more
(01:08):
while campuses are shut down. But first I'm talking to
Amy not Too So and and Friedman, hosts of the
beloved podcast Call Your Girlfriend, and now best selling authors
about friendship Amy Not Too So, and and Friedman are
(01:32):
each extraordinary women in their own right. Last July, they
released their book Big Friendship, How We Keep each Other Close,
which is really a love letter to friendship and a
guide for people who want to be better friends in
a time when we've been isolated from our friends. This
(01:53):
book sure resonated with me, and I was delighted to
welcome them to the podcast. I'm just so excited to
talk to both of you. And it's particularly poignant to
me because in the last year I've lost two really,
really good friends, and I missed them all the time.
I mean every day I want to talk to one
(02:14):
or the other about what's going on or you know,
what they're thinking or how they're managing. And I almost
have to catch myself because you know, I can't talk
to them. But when you think about friendship, and the
two of you just really have delved into it. What
(02:34):
are some of your favorite examples of friendship and popular culture? First,
I just want to say I'm so sorry for your loss,
Like hearing that is, it's so big and it's so profound,
you know, I think the reason and and I are
so invested in our friendship and in friendship in general.
I think it is because culturally, we haven't made space
(02:57):
to to tell people that, you know, when your friend,
I said, is a significant loss in your life, and
that we should treat it that way, you know, and
you should have time for bereavement, and you should have
people check in on you. So that is you know,
that's a lot to hear. And I'm so sorry you're
dealing with that. To your question about friendship and popular culture,
I think that pop culture for me has always been
(03:19):
where the idealized version of friendship was. I was an
obsessive Mary Tyler Moore show watcher as a kid, and
when and when I was learning English, it was a
show that meant so much to me, and so like that,
friendship is iconic to me. I think, Um, you know,
in the book, we write a lot about Oprah and Gail,
and while that is not a fictional account of friendship,
(03:40):
I think that too very real women sharing how invested
they are in each other. That is something that had
it has left a lasting impression on my life. How
about you, an well, and when we talk about complex
portrayals of friendship that you know, don't just show the
idealized good stuff, but show everything that it can mean
(04:01):
to be in someone's life this way. I think a
lot of those examples come from fiction. We both love
Tony Morrison Sula and speaking of a lifelong, powerful, profound entanglement,
so to speak. That book really gets at some of
the things I think we were hoping to write about,
(04:21):
in the sense that a friendship can be lots of things,
not just always affirming and joyful, but complex and difficult.
You know, when you make friends as an adult, that's
a different kind of entry into friendship. I think about
how YouTube met watching what the premiere of Gossip Girl,
(04:43):
right the prom episode. Let me tell you it was
riveting stuff. I just I love the the image of it.
But you became friends as adults, and I think that's
a really significant event because for so many people, you know,
that's hard for them, you know. I think that and
and I were both people that we were so aware
(05:06):
that so much of our social life when we were
young was really organized around our parents. That is just
the truth of any young person. You meet people because
you're in the same boat as them, and to some
extent that is also true in college. And I think
that you know once you step out into the real world.
You have this opportunity to just be yourself and tell
(05:26):
your story to people who you know don't have like
a preconceived notion of who you are, and you get
to try out almost like a new identity. We're like,
this is who I am when the world is not
negotiating me through my mom and dad or my academic
achievements or whatever. And so I think that, like when
we met, it was very much a phase of life
where you know, we lived in d C, such a
(05:47):
transient kind of city, but we had a lot of
room in our life to make a new friend because
we were trying to figure out who am I going
to be in the world, Like who do I want
to be when I like an older, more established person.
And so when I think about people who don't want to,
you know, they think that they don't have the capacity
(06:08):
to make friends as adults, it makes me really sad
because I think that the opportunity you have every time
you make a friend as an adult, particularly like every
decade of adulthood, is that you get to be a
new person in someone's life, and you get to learn
about yourself in a new context. And so I just
really hope that we are people who are open to
that in every season of life. It's so true that
(06:32):
part of our story is about meeting at this point
where we were trying to figure out what the next
phase looked like for both of us individually. And when
we look back on our admittedly kind of limited experience
in adulthood making friends, like hopefully we're both around a
long time to make a lot more, we really see
that we both have made friends and periods of transition
(06:55):
and periods where something is shifting in our lives and
we maybe require are a new kind of relationship or
support to see us into the next phase. And you know,
we're all always changing, and I think friends are a
great reminder of that and a great inspiration to change more.
You know, when you think about the friends from different
phases of your life, it does reflect who you are,
(07:18):
but it also, as you both said, reflect who you
want to become. Because there is a way in which
your friendship, especially a close friendship, can be such a
stimulant for you having to take steps it might be
a little scary or break off a different relationship because
you've got the support of a friend when you should
(07:39):
have done it even before. So there's just a lot
of learning that goes on through friendship. And you know,
when you talk about friendship, you know, you came up
with a couple of terms that really resonated with me.
One is big friendship. What sets big friendship apart? Is
there such a thing as a little friendship? I love
(08:00):
the idea of a little friendship. You're like a little
friendship as a treat for you. Little friendships everywhere our
next book, right exactly, that's right. You know, I think
that what we were really trying to get at is
that the word friend is so nebulous. Friend is anyone
from that person that you met one time who did
that really nice thing for you, to someone that's you know,
(08:22):
they're just in your Facebook feed and you don't remember
when you met them. And then you know, there's the
friend like Anne is my friend, someone who I want
her to be there on my last day in the world.
I want to know that I have a strong, solid
relationship with her. And in the Golden Girls version of this,
you know she's there at the nursing home with me.
That's the that's the fantasy. Please, you mean, on our
(08:43):
Hawaiian compound, we are not in the nursing home. But
let's let's construct a better fantasy for this. Okay, thank you,
thank you, thank you. But you know, I think that
they're so much of the unexpressed feelings a friendship or
that is that we don't we're not even precise about
what we're talking about here, and so in um, you know,
coining Big Friendship and talking about it, we are so
(09:06):
laser focused on the kind of friendship that you want
to be so deeply rooted in that this person is
a huge part of your life. You want the worlds
to know and to recognize that they're a big part
of your life. It is a relationship that is mature,
It's a relationship that is rooted in the future, and
that is um you know, I think really upends the
social scripts for um, the role that your friends are
(09:29):
supposed to have in your life. Like we are, we
are so deeply invested, you know, in creating a world
where romantic love or you know, like parents and children
bonds are not the only ones that people think make
you a whole adult, you know, And we think that
with Big Friendship, we're getting a little closer to that world.
But I have to point out that you two have
(09:51):
been very honest about the trials and tribulations of your
big friendship. This is the exact reason we wanted to
write a book, in fact, that something that encompasses the
complexity of friendship as opposed to just the joyful, up
on the shelf parts of it. And you know, for us,
I think the hardest moments were things that started small,
(10:14):
you know, moments of disconnect or miscommunication where one of
us felt you know, maybe dismissed or hurt, but didn't
say anything in real time. And then some more time
passed and something else happened, and the disconnect kind of
compounded until it got to this place where we were
really just completely missing each other and also didn't feel
(10:36):
safe or comfortable talking about the hard things in our
lives individually. And it was complex because we on the outside,
we're still hosting a podcast together, we were still extremely
functional colleagues, we still had this really deep well of
love and respect for each other, but in the kind
of emotional day to day our relationship was not great.
(10:57):
And I also have to say that friendship is unique
among intimate relationships. You know, it can kind of fall
into the same traps you know, the same ebbs and
flows that any other relationship has. Conflict is just part
of intimately knowing people, and that's something we wanted to
really bring to the conversation about friendship. We're taking a
(11:19):
quick break. Stay with us. You know, I love this
poem that you have in the book. You share a
few lines of a Pat Parker poem for the white
(11:40):
person who wants to know how to be my friend,
and then you go on to sort of pick that
apart two because for people who might not know who
you are, which I can't believe anybody actually doesn't. You know,
we have a black friend and a white friend, and
the two have had to not only navigate business and friendship,
and there were relationship but also race. Let's you know,
(12:02):
let's be clear. And in this poem, I mean, it's
so fascinating because you know, the poem begins with the
first thing you do is to forget that I'm black. Second,
you must never forget that I'm black. So how do
you to navigate this dynamic in your friendship? And you know,
as somebody who's been blessed with really strong friendships with
(12:24):
black women for many years, I'm often amazed at the
obstacles that they face in their everyday life, which are
you know, just stomach churning and so how have you
to navigate this dynamic? And and and have you ever
had to stop and think or or worried that you're
(12:45):
getting it wrong in you know, trying to be as
honest as you possibly can have I ever, you know,
one reason we love that poem so much is because
it really does speak to this duality of like what
makes friendship powerful is that two people feel connected, right,
they feel a sense of affinity. And at the same time,
(13:06):
if it's an interracial friendship, particularly one like hours involving
a white friend and a black friend, we do not
have parallel experiences in this world. And you know, that
dynamic that you're talking about of, you know, really coming
to a deeper understanding of what it means to be
a black woman in the United States of America through
your friendship with black women is something that I fully
(13:30):
relate to. You know. It's one thing to kind of
read statistics or read the news, and it's another when
a person you love says like this is what's going
on with me, and like this is how this plays
out in my day to day life, and so that
is something that we really write about as not an
equal experience for both people in the friendship, you know.
I mean, I can tell you that I feel deeply
(13:51):
grateful for having my world expanded and having more knowledge
of what it's like for people who are not you know,
of my race in this country. But I also recognize
that that comes at a really painful cost for friends
like I mean not to um and that conversation and
that kind of labor to explain her experience of the
(14:11):
world in a way that you know, I get to
have a learning experience just has a different toll. And
being able to hold those things as joint truths is
not all that different from holding the joint truths of
you must forget I'm black, and you must never forget
I'm black, and and you know, and to your point
about UM, are these things I think about? You know,
I think I have been a lot better at the
(14:33):
first part of that than the second part of it,
you know. I think a sort of constant vigilance and
work and conversation is required for me, a white person
who is raised and steeped in white culture, to be
more actionable and accountable when it comes to not forgetting
that people I love are black and have this experience
in the world, and from your perspective, I mean not
(14:53):
to as one half of this very powerful, big friendship.
How have you navigated race or has it been just
the continuity of your life having to Navy? Well, you know,
as you know, I'm black, so I you know, for me,
it's not having conversations about race is not something that
(15:17):
I am more attuned to when you know, something terribly
racist happens on the news, and so you know, even
just that experience, I think was was something that I
was just like not fully aware of that I was like, oh, yeah,
I talked about race all the time because I'm black
and I don't have the choice to not. But realizing that,
you know, for a lot of my white friends, this
(15:37):
is like they're tuning in now because the news sets
they should tune in, or because there has been an incident,
you know. And and even in my friendship with and
where we are two people who are very justice minded,
and we are people who care a lot about living
in a world that is fair and equitable, we've been
great about talking about you know, racism as it happens
in the world. But understanding that, um, we also needed
(15:59):
to talk about how it was affecting our own friendship.
You know, that required a different kind of work. And
Anna is correct that the toll is the toll is
so very different you know when usually in intimate relationships
with white people. I have noticed and um, you know,
the critic Wesley Morris told us this, um for the
book that usually if a conversation about race is happening,
(16:22):
it's not because the white person is bringing it up.
And that is just like one tiny example of you know,
the kind of repetitive work that you have to do
all the time. And I think you know, Anna and
I are also not naive, like racism is bigger than
our friendship. We love each other a lot and we
we want to be there for each other. But this
(16:43):
is what we mean when we talk about systems that
oppress people, and so um, you know, she is right.
It requires a nimbleness and it requires constant vigilance, you know,
for for us, and I have to say that, you know,
for people who say that they struggle with this, I
would really like push them to think about all of
the other ways that they can be different in their
(17:03):
relationships you know, for white women, I'm like, if you
are married to a man. I'm not saying that it's
apples to oranges, but I think that you you can
understand how you can deeply love someone who also gets
on your last nerve about having that deeply affects your life,
you know, when that is true for straight people who
are friends with not straight people, and it's true, it's
(17:24):
true in in all of these ways. And I think
that having a compassion for people who are different and
having the ability to be the one that says, hey,
I understand that my experience is very different than yours,
and I want to keep checking in on that, and
I want to keep bringing that up because the world
is very cruel to a lot of different kinds of people.
(17:46):
And I think that if you are saying that you
are friends with people, that is something that you need
to acknowledge from the jump, and it's something that you
really have to be invested in, um, you know, in
being part of a conversation. Otherwise your relationship will never
go deeper than them, you know. I started by talking
about two friends that I lost this past year. One
(18:06):
a friend since sixth grade, someone who uh I was
in her wedding, she was in my wedding. You know,
we we were in constant touch with each other. We
just had, you know, one of those incredible friendships where
we knew what each other was thinking at the same
time and could kind of do the old side eye
about what we're hearing or seeing. It was one of
(18:28):
the great joys of my life. And my other friend
was an adult made friend who I met in the nineties,
had a chance to work with in a number of capacities.
Was somebody whose opinion I valued so much, who literally
could and would tell me anything. One of those friends
(18:49):
that everybody needs. Uh So I thought a lot about
friendship and knowing what real friendships have been in my life,
and knowing how difficult it is sometimes for people to
form them to maintain them, especially with everything else going
on in their lives and in the world around them.
(19:10):
I wanted to talk to the two of you because
you've been, you know, so important in modeling what it
means to be a friend. You have fought for your friendship,
you have committed to your friendship, and I find that
really inspiring. I'm getting so emotional, and I'm really going
(19:33):
to try not to cry. But I think that hearing
you articulate everything that you said about your friends who
are gone like that is why it matters. You know,
this idea that, um, you can love people so deeply
and they can mean so much to you. Know, I
think that as a society we are not great at
(19:54):
reinforcing that those people can be your friends. And when
I hear you say that, I I'm just remind it
again and again that we we need people need to
know that the greatest loves of your life can be
your friends. And the reason that it's worth fighting for
your relationships, particularly your friendships, is because you know we
are not all going to be here, and if you
(20:16):
are lucky, you will pass on in the same season
of life. But that is not a reality for everyone.
And I think feeling that you really gave it your
all and that you feel not unresolved about how you
expressed your love to someone that meant so much to you,
you know, I keep coming back to that over and
over again. It's why this is so important. It's true,
(20:38):
and we also owe a great debt to you in
terms of feeling like we can be honest and open
about these kinds of things, and um, We're very aware
that we did not like spring from nothing, you know,
we come from uh, you know, amazing examples in you know,
lgbt Q scholarship and in you know, feminist movement, and
(21:01):
you know, examples of women in politics and business and
in all these other areas that really enable us to
have the conversations that we want to have now. And
so that's one reason why it's so powerful to hear
you say that, because we are also very grateful. Thank you,
my friends. I am so delighted to talk to you both.
Thank you so much. Thank you, I mean not to.
(21:28):
And Ann's book is called Big Friendship How we keep
each other close, and you can hear them every week
on their podcast, Call Your Girlfriend. I first met John
and Giselle Fetterman when I was on the campaign trail
in two thousand sixteen. I was struck by their shared
(21:50):
commitment to public service and by how much fun they
have together. As Lieutenant Governor and second Lady of Pennsylvania.
They've spurred each other on when it comes to getting
things done for their community and advocating for people who
really needs somebody in their corner. They live in Braddock, Pennsylvania,
(22:10):
where John was mayor for thirteen years, and if working
at homeschooling their three children wasn't enough, recently, their lives
got even busier when John announced that he's running to
be the next U. S. Senator from Pennsylvania. I really
was looking forward to talking to them together for this podcast. Well,
(22:33):
let me just welcome you to this show. I'm so
excited to talk with both John and Giselle. And we
know everybody's been you know, kind of COVID isolated. Just
give our listeners a little insight into managing three kids
while you both stay so busy and watching political campaigns
(22:54):
and fulfilling your duties as lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania. You know,
we have a six year old, a nine year old,
and eleven year old boy. It's fun, it's overwhelming. I
know that you know, we're gonna look back and be
grateful for all this time that we had together. I
mean at times I hide in the closet for a
little bit. Yeah, well, how did the two of you meet.
(23:19):
I'm just gonna say this that she's gonna tell the
story to embarrass me. It's a very romantic story. I
hope everyone has tissues. Uh So at the time, I
was working out of Newark, New Jersey and Food Justice
and food Access. I nutritionist by trade, and I was
at a retreat and I read this article about this
community of Braddick and they talked about the history of
(23:39):
this incredibly rich community, Andrew Carnegie's for steel mill, big
contributions to this country, and then it was kind of
left behind, and that was really upsetting to me. It
just felt wrong. And I loved the Brooklyn Bridge when
I lived in New York. I just love this bridge.
I thought it was magnificent. And I learned that the
(24:01):
steal that built the Brooklyn Bridge came from Braddick. Brazilians.
We believe in signs, and I said, this is a sign.
So I wrote a letter to the borough and I
shared the work that I was doing with Food Justice
and I wanted to visit and learn more and understand
how this could happen to a city like this. And
the letter ended up with John and he called me.
(24:24):
I came to visit, I think like two months later,
and then I arrived and he felt madly, just madly
in love with me. So yeah, so that's how she
tells it, and that's obviously not true. But she enjoys
shutting that out there, and then when people see what
an ogre I look like and which she looks like,
they assumed that it's like, well, that's got to be true.
But it is true that that but for her reaching
(24:46):
out to that letter, I don't know if our paths
would have ever crossed. You know. One of the reasons
that I wanted to talk with both of you is
because you both are known for your public service and
for you know, really trying to help people, and you
have a partnership, and the partnership is really key to
what both of you have been able to accomplish. And
(25:10):
so Giselle, I want to start with you first. How
did you get involved in public service? And really what
I view and reading about everything you're doing a really
creative approach to you know, service and empowerment of people.
Thank you. I think my stems from gratitude. You know.
I came to this country as a young immigrant. My
(25:31):
family essentially live in the shadows for almost fifteen years.
We were undocumented, and we found ourselves in this whole
new world and kind of navigating our way around it.
And I saw things that I knew weren't the best
way for something to be done, and I was never
in a position to be able to do something about it.
(25:52):
So I collected these kind of pains and these stories
and these experiences for when one day I was in
the position to do something about it. And so I
think it comes from I'm grateful that I get to
live in this country and I get to do the
work that I do, and that's what keeps me going.
That really resonates with me. You know, John, your story
(26:16):
is also fascinating to me. How did you originally get
into public service? It's it's your family that that did.
I was in year two of AmeriCorps, which you know
very well. You know the history there. Um. I went
to the Hill House, which was an organization in Pittsburgh's
(26:36):
historic Hill District, which is the Great Black Jazz It's
kind of like the you know, the Second Harlem, if
you will, of America, to teach g D classes and
set up computer labs there, and that was made possible
by AmeriCorps. I was at twenty four year old and
I wanted to get into public service, but I wasn't
sure how, but AmeriCorps made that possible. So so thank
(26:58):
you well. I think in a list of accomplishments that
my husband's most proud of AmeriCorps way up at the top.
So I will pass that on. We need more of
that in America right now. I hope that part of
the change in our politics and our society is trying
to intentionally create more and more opportunities for service, which
(27:22):
then has the benefits that you just described. John, when
you came to do that g e D program, what
was your transition into decigning to run for mayor and Braddock?
How did that happen? Yeah, just to put that in context,
Braddock had lost its population. It was as vibrant and
robust as Silicon Valley is because Pittsburgh and the steel
(27:46):
industry was that industry that was driving American innovation. Fast
forward to when I showed up twenty years ago, you know,
affiliated with AmeriCorps. We lost the population and the community
was around black and it was one of the port is,
one of the porst communities in Pennsylvania. So I started
setting up programming to help young people get their g
(28:08):
d s, get their jobs. There's driver's license. And then
after a couple of years it was going beautifully and
I was feeling really enriched, but two of my students
were killed with guns, and it really hit me with
a realization that it's great that I can get someone
a g D or a job, but that's not much
help if they're not around to to do that. So
(28:29):
I I ran for mayor, wanting to be the change
I hoped to impose or create in my community, and
that would be that you don't lose anybody through gun violence.
And that first race, the young people that I worked with,
you know, my former students, all registered to vote and
went and knocked on door to door for me. And
(28:51):
long story short, I won that first race by one vote,
one vote, one vote. So I have the ultimate every
vote counts story because I would never have been mayor,
lieutenant governor, or you know, having the esteem, privilege, and
honor to be talking to you this morning, but for
that one vote back in two thousand and five. Well,
what I like, though, is that you are willing to
(29:15):
speak out and invite people to come into the conversation.
You've been an outspoken advocate on everything from lgbt Q rights,
immigration reform obviously, to marijuana legalization. One of the subjects
you've really run with as lieutenant governor. But in following
(29:36):
your career and just on that marijuana legalization issue, what
you did was very much in keeping with how I
think of politics. You traveled the whole state, the whole
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. You went to you know, every corner,
engaging people. You had people who agreed with you, people
who disagreed, and people who just wanted to know what
the debate was all about. And that led you then
(29:58):
to be able to make a recommendation and based on
real conversations, how do we get back to that, John,
how do we try to reinstate the sense of um,
you know, not only civility, um, but you know, a
real conversation about the direction of our country going forward.
Well that that what a great question because like it
(30:19):
just brought me back to Pennsylvania has sixty seven counties,
and I insisted to go every single one of them,
and just to give you an idea of the diversity
of Pennsylvania, Like our our smallest county has five thousand
people in it. And it's hard to remember that we're
all Pennsylvanians because our life experiences could be so drastically different.
But you just mentioned the words civility and and my gosh,
(30:41):
like those meetings were all civil, it was such a
great conversation, like going to the reddest communities, the reddest
counties in Pennsylvania, Like it's it's nostalgic, but it's crazy,
is that wasn't even that long ago, and you know
how much things have changed and how toxic things have gotten.
But I also learned that people really want to talk
(31:02):
and people want to be engaged. You really get to
see a person's experience through his or her own eyes
when you're in their own community. Absolutely, and social media
has has weaponized cruelty and given it a velocity that
is unprecedented where if you're in a room and personal,
it's a lot harder to do and say some of
(31:22):
the things that get flown around online and never once
you know, in the reddest county. So your question really
made me nostalgic back to a time where we could
have a conversation. And I also discovered that around Pennsylvanians
are for this. It's not a hard left kind of
niche issue. It is a populist like let's just do
(31:44):
it already thing. You know, of course, more Democrats than
Republicans but a majority of Republicans too. But what has happened,
you know, as has been well documented and as we
have all experienced the fore president's campaign and presidency in bold,
did a lot of people to be more vocal in
expressing racists and xenophobic and other very negative, hateful points
(32:09):
of view. And that's something that your family has experienced firsthand.
And Giselle, you had a particularly unfortunate experience at the
grocery store this past fall. What happened there? So I
do usually have the protection of stay troopers with me
because of my husband's role in this time. I just
was running to the grocery store, which is just three
(32:29):
minutes from my house. I just sometimes like to go
by myself because it's you want to feel normal, right,
And the golden Quewis were on sale, and they those
are my favorite. And I ran to get some golden
Quwi's and I was in line to pay, and this
woman passed and recognized me, you know, she stopped and
it just began from there. She you know, yelled some slurs.
(32:52):
She said that I don't belong here, that I'm a
thief and I'm belonging in this country. And I was paralyzed.
I mean, I'm I think I'm really good at standing
up for someone else, but it's when it's for me,
I just kind of freeze and just start crying. And
that's what I did. And I paid quickly, and I
ran off to my car and I was leaving. She
(33:14):
followed me to the car and continued again yelling slurs
at me. And it was it was a pretty terrible
harbor experience of many people face UM in this country unfortunately. UM.
But I you know, when it happens to you and
it's so close, that hate is so close to your face,
it was a lot to process. Wow, I'm so sorry
(33:34):
that happened. How do you try to deal with that?
How do you understand that? What can we all learn
from that? So I cry a lot. I think that's
my first thing. But you know, I tried to understand
that that woman, for example, she wasn't born that way.
She didn't come out of you know, into this world
(33:54):
hating me because I was born in a different country
or spoke a different language. So I have to understand
that she was taught that, and I my hope is
that she can be the one who breaks that cycle. Right,
we want to continue to break cycles. I I thought
of that incident, thinking like, my gosh, did she have children,
does she have grandchildren? Is she teaching them this? So
(34:17):
I asked that she um received support to be able
to find a way out of this. I wanted her
to see herself and say, I don't really like that person,
you know, I don't want to be that person anymore, UM,
and that she can be the one who breaks that cycle.
We'll be right back. You know. One of the hard
(34:49):
parts though about being in public life is your kids.
And I remember when Chelsea was, you know, maybe old
enough to understand the conversation we were having with her
five or six. We were telling her that, you know,
she would hear mean things said about her daddy and mommy,
and you know, she had to understand that that would happen.
And she was so I could just remember a little
(35:12):
face and her eyes getting really big. Well, why would
anybody do that? Why would anybody say anything mean? And yeah,
we're we're there with you. Yeah, but you have to
prepare your children. And and I know that, UM, you
guys have done that because I've read about how you
talk to your kids and tell them that you know, sadly,
(35:34):
this is part of the world. And when you're out
in the public as you both are, you know that's
going to happen. Do they understand that you think they do?
They really do. They've lived it for a long time.
And I don't wanna you know, I want to shield
as much as I can, but I also want them
to know that this is the world. You know, I'm
raising them not for us. We're raising them for this
(35:54):
world so that they can be agents to combat the
rest that's out there. And I remember the night of
that incident. I came home and I was really upset
and crying for a few hours, and we're trying to
explain what had happened to the kids because I was alone.
In August, who's six, He's like, Mom, you're so adorable.
How could anybody say anything to you? Like he was
(36:16):
out age. Well he's a very perceptive child, That's all
I could say. Well, so now you two have launched
a new adventure because John, you have announced your running
for the Senate. How did you make that decision? Well,
I mean I just always want to be in a
position to serve. I mean it started things in my
(36:37):
life worked out like you know I was the product
of a kind of an unplanned teenage pregnant romance, so
my beginnings could have turned out one way or the other.
But I was fortunate where I ended up in a
place where I'm able to and I want to contribute
because I just wanted to make the world a better
(36:57):
place and pay it forward. And that's a lane that
made the most sense, and that really crystallized after we
got into a place with our former president doing and
saying things that were beyond the pale of dismantling democracy.
And I was so outraged that eight out of our
nine Republican Congressional delegation members who were on the same
(37:20):
ballot saying, you know, the voters loved me. No fraud
in my race, but man, Joe Biden, you rigged it
for him. The fact that there are people willing to
trade political capital and temporary popularity to damage this nation's
democratic franchise appalled me at a level that I never
could have imagined. And I said this in jest, but
(37:41):
it's also true that if I am the next Senator,
I promised to be on Sedition free. I love that,
and everyone knows I'm no fan of politics, I'm too sensitive.
My heart can't handle it. Um. But for me, I
think was you know, my family in Brazil, it's everyone's
him to come to America always, you know, every conversation
(38:02):
I have with them, it's like, I'll see you soon.
It's this this long American dream. And when all this
was happening and everything felt like it was falling apart,
my family stopped saying that, They're like, we're fine here,
and UM, that was a really sad moment because I
love this country so much and I want them to
continue to dream of of being here. And I think
(38:24):
that's what Um. You know, my support for him full came. John.
I know that after you announced your Senate campaign, an
incident that happened in Braddock when you were mayor back
in got some renewed attention on social media particularly, So
I just have to ask you, John, what happened? So
(38:46):
in is outside and experienced a really large and sharp
burst of gunfire and there was an individual, you know,
covered head to toe, couldn't tell what their race was,
what there there was running from this corridor where there's
been a lot of shootings over the years there and
I made that split second decision I called nine one one,
(39:10):
and I got my family in safely, and I made
the decision. This was a few weeks after Sandy Hook
as he as the individual was heading towards our elementary
school to intercept him, didn't point the weapon against him.
It was over in less than thirty seconds because the
police were coming from such a short area. And the
allegation was is that it was somehow racially motivated, when
(39:31):
that just couldn't be further from the truth. What I
can say, though, is is that Braddock served as my
my jury after that, and they knew it had nothing
to do with the race. They knew it had nothing
to do with anything other than somebody rising up to
intervene in a situation where there was undisputed gunfire. Multiple
residents you know, attested to that. And they re elected
(39:54):
me by a greater than three to one margin four
months after this incident, and then to another term four
years later, and then to lieutenant governor. And I've just
said that my twenty years in Braddock, the most thing
I'm most proud of is we stopped gun deaths in
our community for five and a half years for the
first time ever. And it has to be said, profiling.
(40:15):
You know this history in the black community. It's a
real thing, and I certainly understood that, But at no
point in time was I ever aware of this individual's
race or even gender based on how they were dressed
and how far apart we were and how rapidly this
all happened. Well, I want to bring this back to
the two of you because I'm fascinated about partnership and
(40:38):
one of my stories that I love about you, Giselle
is I think it was a birthday and John asked
you what you wanted, and you said you wanted a container.
And I'm not talking about like a little tiny container
for a plant. I'm talking about a container that goes
on a huge ship. And so John just kind of went, okay.
(41:01):
I had just got a nice honorarium, which I never
kept any honorariums, of course, they all went to charity.
And She's like, I need I want to start this
thing called the Free Store, and I'm like okay. So
we would always drive by this place that creates a
container offices, like you know, like out of like a
legitimate ocean cargo shipping container, and the price was X
(41:24):
and my honorarium was literally X I was like, okay, sure,
here you go. And then that was what nine years ago,
nine years ago, and that has become the Free Store,
and she has created something that is as fine as
anything that's ever been done to helping the really basic
fundamental needs of the folks here. It was so the
(41:46):
two of you kind of have educated each other about
all sorts of things during your your partnership. Yes, mostly
me educating him because I'm just I'm just the arm
candy secretary, you know, like, well, it's a great partnership.
I want to thank you for, you know, one of
the best memories with Grace. You know, we were waiting
(42:09):
for your event and everything was running late because that's
what happens in campaigns. And she was starving and grumpy
because that's who she is, and we see you coming
and I said, look, Grace, there she is and she said, great,
but now I'm starving and you've got a big bag
of chips from your husband, and I have the best
(42:29):
picture of her just so to her, you are the
one who fed her that day, and she she that's
a great metaphor because you know that that's how I
think about public service. You know, it is a process
of meeting and yes, feeding all of the needs that
are out there. So I just wish that both of you,
(42:49):
you know, the very best in your you know, public
and professional and personal pursuits altogether. Thank you for talking
to me today. The Pennsylvania Senate election in is one
of the most important contests in the country upcoming, So
(43:11):
if you're paying close attention, as I hope you are,
please come back next week. When I talked to another
terrific Democrat in the race, Malcolm Kenyatta, you know, partners
are great, but what if you don't have one? My
next guests set out to answer that question for one
very specific demographic college students stuck at home during the pandemic.
(43:36):
Iliana Valdez is a senior majoring in computer science at
Yale University. Her brother Jorge graduated from college a few
years ago and now works as a software developer. This fall,
they found themselves sheltering in place, so along with a friend,
they came up with the idea for a new dating
(43:57):
site called okay Zoomer and worked together to build it.
I think it's safe to say it's been a resounding success. Hi,
Alianna and Jorgey, Welcome to the show today. Hi, thanks
for having us. Well. I was so intrigued by Okay
(44:17):
Zoomer and I wanna learn all about that. But first
a little bit about the two of you, your brother
and sister. I'd love to learn more about where your
interest in programming came from. So I love to tell
people that it started in the womb because my mom
was at college studying for computer science when she was
pregnant with me. But after that, like my big brother
(44:38):
did it. So of course, like I wouldn't be like, well,
it's a pretty good combination, but the two of you
working together have created something new. It's called Okay Zoomer,
a great name. What inspired you to do this, Eleana?
How how did you even think about it? So when
(45:00):
we got sent home, UM, a lot of my friends
and I were on Facebook because that's all we had
to do at home UM in quarantined, and a lot
of people were posting really funny memes about not being
able to have a love life anymore and not being
able to find their partner before they graduate. So I
remember we were like, what if we solve that problem?
What did we help people find that partner before they
(45:20):
graduate Yale or they graduate whatever university is that they're
going to. And my brother was like, so quick to
be on board and behind the mission. I love that, Jorge.
So here, your little sister comes home from school and
she says, you know, this is really bad because my
friends and I are feeling really isolated. She comes to
me with this Google form of people who are expressing
(45:41):
their desire to find their match right, and it's got
over ten tho sign ups on it, and she's like,
I'm not sure how I'm going to get these people
their perfect match. And one night and I'm like, Okay,
we can solve this together. Let's let's figure it out. Well,
you did a lot of the programming behind Okay, Zoom
or Orge. What makes it different from other dating apps?
(46:06):
We try to not provide any means of superficial first impression,
so there's no pictures on the site. Really, the only
thing we're doing is giving you basic demographic information and
leaving it on you to reach out to that person. Um.
And another thing that's different is that we only give
you a match every Friday. You know, It's not like Tinder,
(46:26):
where you're getting an endless stream of people that you
might be interested in. So really it's focusing on like
making core personal relationships that are built to withstand and Iliana,
You're not just making potential romantic matches, as I understand it,
You're helping your fellow college students replicate the kind of
random encounters they might have if they were, you know,
(46:49):
in the dining hall or the library or walking out
of a class, so that they could have a more
normal life right now. Yeah, that was a big driving
force behind it. I'm also a freshman counselor and a
lot of our first years like have not been able
to meet other people. Um, so this is definitely like
something we want to apply it to. We want to
make sure that, you know, students who are completely remote
(47:10):
still get that experience of networking, because that's a huge
important part of being at college. Aleana, Why do you
think Okay zoomer has struck such a chord and and
how many people have actually ended up using it so far?
I think a huge part of what it struck such
a chord is because our current apps like Tinder and
stuff like that are very driven on hookups and like
short term interactions, which did not survive the pandemic because
(47:32):
we were gone and separated from each other for eight months,
and so people realize, wow, maybe there needs to be
a different method for me to build these like meaningful
conversations before I start a relationship with someone to make
sure that it's going to last. Um So that's been
a huge like part of why I think it worked.
And we've had over twenty thou people use it so far,
and that number keeps growing. Have you gotten any testimonials
(47:54):
that show that you're doing the right thing, You're you're
really helping people during such a difficult time. Yeah. So
one of my best friends actually is currently in rural Wyoming.
In rural Wyoming, his tender options are like zero to none.
Um So, it's definitely been a huge factor for people
that they still want to date people they have things
in common with, so that means they still want to
(48:15):
date people at their respective universities. But the dating apps
they're out there just aren't cutting it anymore, especially in
our new globalized community that we have. It's just we
know that we're going in the right direction just because
we've been able to serve a lot of people who
haven't been served by the current dating apps anymore. Okay,
before we close, I have to ask have either of
you gone on any Okay Zoomer dates. I've gone in
(48:37):
an Okay Seemer friend date and it was awesome. Met
a nice person from Princeton and check in every now
and then. How about you or Unfortunately I'm out of
the age demographic at this point. Well, I'm sort of
hoping that as you grow and develop this new site
that you expand it for ages, because it's not only
(48:59):
college kids who need to have, you know, positive connections
without the pressure of appearance being front and center and
all the ideas of dating and the pressures that that brings.
So I'll put it a plug for you know, expanding
Okay Zoomer. I want to thank both Iliana and Jorge
(49:21):
and really congratulate you on making such good use of
the time you had during COVID to create something that
can bring people together in some really good and positive ways.
Thank you both very much. Thank you to check out
(49:42):
Okay Zoomer go to Zoomer dot Love. Speaking of partners,
we could not make this podcast without you our listeners,
and I love hearing your stories and ideas for upcoming oos. Recently,
after our episode on doing hard Things, I asked you
(50:06):
to share some of the hard things you've had to do,
and boy, I got so many wonderful responses. Anna wrote
to me about how hard her parents have been working
as they try to keep their small business and employees
afloat during this pandemic. Sharon and so many others wrote
(50:26):
in about dealing with loss and grief, the death of
a loved one, the difficulty conceiving, caring for aging parents,
and so much more. Thank you to everyone who has
written in, and on a related note, for a future episode,
I'll be answering questions from listeners. So if you have
(50:47):
a question about the podcast about public service, about the
skills that I have or haven't mastered during this pandemic,
for example, leave us a message at mine one four
four five eight one four four one. Again that's nine
one four four five eight one four four one. We
(51:11):
just asked that you try to keep it to you know,
a minute or so, or if you prefer, you can
email us at You and Me Both pod at gmail
dot com. I really look forward to hearing from you.
You and Me Both is brought to you by I
(51:32):
Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and
Lauren Peterson, with help from Huma Aberdeen, Nikki E Tour,
Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Rob Russo,
and Lona Valmiro. Our engineer is Zack McNeice and the
(51:56):
original music is by Forest Gray. If you like you
and me both, please help spread the word, tell your
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make sure to hit the subscribe buttons so you never
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Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(52:20):
Thanks for listening and see you next week
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.
You know, we've heard from a lot of amazing people
on this podcast, like Pamala Harris and Demanda Gorman and
Nancy Pelosi and Stacy Abrahams and Maria Ressa, Tan France,
(00:21):
Jose Andreas, and that's just to name a few. But
I know all of these people would be quick to
tell you that no one does great things alone. We
need friends, spouses, partners, siblings, colleagues, and others we can
turn to for support who will keep us motivated and
hold us accountable. So on today's episode, we're celebrating partnerships.
(00:46):
I'll be talking to Lieutenant Governor and Second Lady of
Pennsylvania John and Giselle Fetterman about their shared commitment to
public service. And I'll be talking to Jorge and Ilana Valdez,
a brother sister team who found a creative new way
to help thousands of college students find friendships and more
(01:08):
while campuses are shut down. But first I'm talking to
Amy not Too So and and Friedman, hosts of the
beloved podcast Call Your Girlfriend, and now best selling authors
about friendship Amy Not Too So, and and Friedman are
(01:32):
each extraordinary women in their own right. Last July, they
released their book Big Friendship, How We Keep each Other Close,
which is really a love letter to friendship and a
guide for people who want to be better friends in
a time when we've been isolated from our friends. This
(01:53):
book sure resonated with me, and I was delighted to
welcome them to the podcast. I'm just so excited to
talk to both of you. And it's particularly poignant to
me because in the last year I've lost two really,
really good friends, and I missed them all the time.
I mean every day I want to talk to one
(02:14):
or the other about what's going on or you know,
what they're thinking or how they're managing. And I almost
have to catch myself because you know, I can't talk
to them. But when you think about friendship, and the
two of you just really have delved into it. What
(02:34):
are some of your favorite examples of friendship and popular culture? First,
I just want to say I'm so sorry for your loss,
Like hearing that is, it's so big and it's so profound,
you know, I think the reason and and I are
so invested in our friendship and in friendship in general.
I think it is because culturally, we haven't made space
(02:57):
to to tell people that, you know, when your friend,
I said, is a significant loss in your life, and
that we should treat it that way, you know, and
you should have time for bereavement, and you should have
people check in on you. So that is you know,
that's a lot to hear. And I'm so sorry you're
dealing with that. To your question about friendship and popular culture,
I think that pop culture for me has always been
(03:19):
where the idealized version of friendship was. I was an
obsessive Mary Tyler Moore show watcher as a kid, and
when and when I was learning English, it was a
show that meant so much to me, and so like that,
friendship is iconic to me. I think, Um, you know,
in the book, we write a lot about Oprah and Gail,
and while that is not a fictional account of friendship,
(03:40):
I think that too very real women sharing how invested
they are in each other. That is something that had
it has left a lasting impression on my life. How
about you, an well, and when we talk about complex
portrayals of friendship that you know, don't just show the
idealized good stuff, but show everything that it can mean
(04:01):
to be in someone's life this way. I think a
lot of those examples come from fiction. We both love
Tony Morrison Sula and speaking of a lifelong, powerful, profound entanglement,
so to speak. That book really gets at some of
the things I think we were hoping to write about,
(04:21):
in the sense that a friendship can be lots of things,
not just always affirming and joyful, but complex and difficult.
You know, when you make friends as an adult, that's
a different kind of entry into friendship. I think about
how YouTube met watching what the premiere of Gossip Girl,
(04:43):
right the prom episode. Let me tell you it was
riveting stuff. I just I love the the image of it.
But you became friends as adults, and I think that's
a really significant event because for so many people, you know,
that's hard for them, you know. I think that and
and I were both people that we were so aware
(05:06):
that so much of our social life when we were
young was really organized around our parents. That is just
the truth of any young person. You meet people because
you're in the same boat as them, and to some
extent that is also true in college. And I think
that you know once you step out into the real world.
You have this opportunity to just be yourself and tell
(05:26):
your story to people who you know don't have like
a preconceived notion of who you are, and you get
to try out almost like a new identity. We're like,
this is who I am when the world is not
negotiating me through my mom and dad or my academic
achievements or whatever. And so I think that, like when
we met, it was very much a phase of life
where you know, we lived in d C, such a
(05:47):
transient kind of city, but we had a lot of
room in our life to make a new friend because
we were trying to figure out who am I going
to be in the world, Like who do I want
to be when I like an older, more established person.
And so when I think about people who don't want to,
you know, they think that they don't have the capacity
(06:08):
to make friends as adults, it makes me really sad
because I think that the opportunity you have every time
you make a friend as an adult, particularly like every
decade of adulthood, is that you get to be a
new person in someone's life, and you get to learn
about yourself in a new context. And so I just
really hope that we are people who are open to
that in every season of life. It's so true that
(06:32):
part of our story is about meeting at this point
where we were trying to figure out what the next
phase looked like for both of us individually. And when
we look back on our admittedly kind of limited experience
in adulthood making friends, like hopefully we're both around a
long time to make a lot more, we really see
that we both have made friends and periods of transition
(06:55):
and periods where something is shifting in our lives and
we maybe require are a new kind of relationship or
support to see us into the next phase. And you know,
we're all always changing, and I think friends are a
great reminder of that and a great inspiration to change more.
You know, when you think about the friends from different
phases of your life, it does reflect who you are,
(07:18):
but it also, as you both said, reflect who you
want to become. Because there is a way in which
your friendship, especially a close friendship, can be such a
stimulant for you having to take steps it might be
a little scary or break off a different relationship because
you've got the support of a friend when you should
(07:39):
have done it even before. So there's just a lot
of learning that goes on through friendship. And you know,
when you talk about friendship, you know, you came up
with a couple of terms that really resonated with me.
One is big friendship. What sets big friendship apart? Is
there such a thing as a little friendship? I love
(08:00):
the idea of a little friendship. You're like a little
friendship as a treat for you. Little friendships everywhere our
next book, right exactly, that's right. You know, I think
that what we were really trying to get at is
that the word friend is so nebulous. Friend is anyone
from that person that you met one time who did
that really nice thing for you, to someone that's you know,
(08:22):
they're just in your Facebook feed and you don't remember
when you met them. And then you know, there's the
friend like Anne is my friend, someone who I want
her to be there on my last day in the world.
I want to know that I have a strong, solid
relationship with her. And in the Golden Girls version of this,
you know she's there at the nursing home with me.
That's the that's the fantasy. Please, you mean, on our
(08:43):
Hawaiian compound, we are not in the nursing home. But
let's let's construct a better fantasy for this. Okay, thank you,
thank you, thank you. But you know, I think that
they're so much of the unexpressed feelings a friendship or
that is that we don't we're not even precise about
what we're talking about here, and so in um, you know,
coining Big Friendship and talking about it, we are so
(09:06):
laser focused on the kind of friendship that you want
to be so deeply rooted in that this person is
a huge part of your life. You want the worlds
to know and to recognize that they're a big part
of your life. It is a relationship that is mature,
It's a relationship that is rooted in the future, and
that is um you know, I think really upends the
social scripts for um, the role that your friends are
(09:29):
supposed to have in your life. Like we are, we
are so deeply invested, you know, in creating a world
where romantic love or you know, like parents and children
bonds are not the only ones that people think make
you a whole adult, you know, And we think that
with Big Friendship, we're getting a little closer to that world.
But I have to point out that you two have
(09:51):
been very honest about the trials and tribulations of your
big friendship. This is the exact reason we wanted to
write a book, in fact, that something that encompasses the
complexity of friendship as opposed to just the joyful, up
on the shelf parts of it. And you know, for us,
I think the hardest moments were things that started small,
(10:14):
you know, moments of disconnect or miscommunication where one of
us felt you know, maybe dismissed or hurt, but didn't
say anything in real time. And then some more time
passed and something else happened, and the disconnect kind of
compounded until it got to this place where we were
really just completely missing each other and also didn't feel
(10:36):
safe or comfortable talking about the hard things in our
lives individually. And it was complex because we on the outside,
we're still hosting a podcast together, we were still extremely
functional colleagues, we still had this really deep well of
love and respect for each other, but in the kind
of emotional day to day our relationship was not great.
(10:57):
And I also have to say that friendship is unique
among intimate relationships. You know, it can kind of fall
into the same traps you know, the same ebbs and
flows that any other relationship has. Conflict is just part
of intimately knowing people, and that's something we wanted to
really bring to the conversation about friendship. We're taking a
(11:19):
quick break. Stay with us. You know, I love this
poem that you have in the book. You share a
few lines of a Pat Parker poem for the white
(11:40):
person who wants to know how to be my friend,
and then you go on to sort of pick that
apart two because for people who might not know who
you are, which I can't believe anybody actually doesn't. You know,
we have a black friend and a white friend, and
the two have had to not only navigate business and friendship,
and there were relationship but also race. Let's you know,
(12:02):
let's be clear. And in this poem, I mean, it's
so fascinating because you know, the poem begins with the
first thing you do is to forget that I'm black. Second,
you must never forget that I'm black. So how do
you to navigate this dynamic in your friendship? And you know,
as somebody who's been blessed with really strong friendships with
(12:24):
black women for many years, I'm often amazed at the
obstacles that they face in their everyday life, which are
you know, just stomach churning and so how have you
to navigate this dynamic? And and and have you ever
had to stop and think or or worried that you're
(12:45):
getting it wrong in you know, trying to be as
honest as you possibly can have I ever, you know,
one reason we love that poem so much is because
it really does speak to this duality of like what
makes friendship powerful is that two people feel connected, right,
they feel a sense of affinity. And at the same time,
(13:06):
if it's an interracial friendship, particularly one like hours involving
a white friend and a black friend, we do not
have parallel experiences in this world. And you know, that
dynamic that you're talking about of, you know, really coming
to a deeper understanding of what it means to be
a black woman in the United States of America through
your friendship with black women is something that I fully
(13:30):
relate to. You know. It's one thing to kind of
read statistics or read the news, and it's another when
a person you love says like this is what's going
on with me, and like this is how this plays
out in my day to day life, and so that
is something that we really write about as not an
equal experience for both people in the friendship, you know.
I mean, I can tell you that I feel deeply
(13:51):
grateful for having my world expanded and having more knowledge
of what it's like for people who are not you know,
of my race in this country. But I also recognize
that that comes at a really painful cost for friends
like I mean not to um and that conversation and
that kind of labor to explain her experience of the
(14:11):
world in a way that you know, I get to
have a learning experience just has a different toll. And
being able to hold those things as joint truths is
not all that different from holding the joint truths of
you must forget I'm black, and you must never forget
I'm black, and and you know, and to your point
about UM, are these things I think about? You know,
I think I have been a lot better at the
(14:33):
first part of that than the second part of it,
you know. I think a sort of constant vigilance and
work and conversation is required for me, a white person
who is raised and steeped in white culture, to be
more actionable and accountable when it comes to not forgetting
that people I love are black and have this experience
in the world, and from your perspective, I mean not
(14:53):
to as one half of this very powerful, big friendship.
How have you navigated race or has it been just
the continuity of your life having to Navy? Well, you know,
as you know, I'm black, so I you know, for me,
it's not having conversations about race is not something that
(15:17):
I am more attuned to when you know, something terribly
racist happens on the news, and so you know, even
just that experience, I think was was something that I
was just like not fully aware of that I was like, oh, yeah,
I talked about race all the time because I'm black
and I don't have the choice to not. But realizing that,
you know, for a lot of my white friends, this
(15:37):
is like they're tuning in now because the news sets
they should tune in, or because there has been an incident,
you know. And and even in my friendship with and
where we are two people who are very justice minded,
and we are people who care a lot about living
in a world that is fair and equitable, we've been
great about talking about you know, racism as it happens
in the world. But understanding that, um, we also needed
(15:59):
to talk about how it was affecting our own friendship.
You know, that required a different kind of work. And
Anna is correct that the toll is the toll is
so very different you know when usually in intimate relationships
with white people. I have noticed and um, you know,
the critic Wesley Morris told us this, um for the
book that usually if a conversation about race is happening,
(16:22):
it's not because the white person is bringing it up.
And that is just like one tiny example of you know,
the kind of repetitive work that you have to do
all the time. And I think you know, Anna and
I are also not naive, like racism is bigger than
our friendship. We love each other a lot and we
we want to be there for each other. But this
(16:43):
is what we mean when we talk about systems that
oppress people, and so um, you know, she is right.
It requires a nimbleness and it requires constant vigilance, you know,
for for us, and I have to say that, you know,
for people who say that they struggle with this, I
would really like push them to think about all of
the other ways that they can be different in their
(17:03):
relationships you know, for white women, I'm like, if you
are married to a man. I'm not saying that it's
apples to oranges, but I think that you you can
understand how you can deeply love someone who also gets
on your last nerve about having that deeply affects your life,
you know, when that is true for straight people who
are friends with not straight people, and it's true, it's
(17:24):
true in in all of these ways. And I think
that having a compassion for people who are different and
having the ability to be the one that says, hey,
I understand that my experience is very different than yours,
and I want to keep checking in on that, and
I want to keep bringing that up because the world
is very cruel to a lot of different kinds of people.
(17:46):
And I think that if you are saying that you
are friends with people, that is something that you need
to acknowledge from the jump, and it's something that you
really have to be invested in, um, you know, in
being part of a conversation. Otherwise your relationship will never
go deeper than them, you know. I started by talking
about two friends that I lost this past year. One
(18:06):
a friend since sixth grade, someone who uh I was
in her wedding, she was in my wedding. You know,
we we were in constant touch with each other. We
just had, you know, one of those incredible friendships where
we knew what each other was thinking at the same
time and could kind of do the old side eye
about what we're hearing or seeing. It was one of
(18:28):
the great joys of my life. And my other friend
was an adult made friend who I met in the nineties,
had a chance to work with in a number of capacities.
Was somebody whose opinion I valued so much, who literally
could and would tell me anything. One of those friends
(18:49):
that everybody needs. Uh So I thought a lot about
friendship and knowing what real friendships have been in my life,
and knowing how difficult it is sometimes for people to
form them to maintain them, especially with everything else going
on in their lives and in the world around them.
(19:10):
I wanted to talk to the two of you because
you've been, you know, so important in modeling what it
means to be a friend. You have fought for your friendship,
you have committed to your friendship, and I find that
really inspiring. I'm getting so emotional, and I'm really going
(19:33):
to try not to cry. But I think that hearing
you articulate everything that you said about your friends who
are gone like that is why it matters. You know,
this idea that, um, you can love people so deeply
and they can mean so much to you. Know, I
think that as a society we are not great at
(19:54):
reinforcing that those people can be your friends. And when
I hear you say that, I I'm just remind it
again and again that we we need people need to
know that the greatest loves of your life can be
your friends. And the reason that it's worth fighting for
your relationships, particularly your friendships, is because you know we
are not all going to be here, and if you
(20:16):
are lucky, you will pass on in the same season
of life. But that is not a reality for everyone.
And I think feeling that you really gave it your
all and that you feel not unresolved about how you
expressed your love to someone that meant so much to you,
you know, I keep coming back to that over and
over again. It's why this is so important. It's true,
(20:38):
and we also owe a great debt to you in
terms of feeling like we can be honest and open
about these kinds of things, and um, We're very aware
that we did not like spring from nothing, you know,
we come from uh, you know, amazing examples in you know,
lgbt Q scholarship and in you know, feminist movement, and
(21:01):
you know, examples of women in politics and business and
in all these other areas that really enable us to
have the conversations that we want to have now. And
so that's one reason why it's so powerful to hear
you say that, because we are also very grateful. Thank you,
my friends. I am so delighted to talk to you both.
Thank you so much. Thank you, I mean not to.
(21:28):
And Ann's book is called Big Friendship How we keep
each other close, and you can hear them every week
on their podcast, Call Your Girlfriend. I first met John
and Giselle Fetterman when I was on the campaign trail
in two thousand sixteen. I was struck by their shared
(21:50):
commitment to public service and by how much fun they
have together. As Lieutenant Governor and second Lady of Pennsylvania.
They've spurred each other on when it comes to getting
things done for their community and advocating for people who
really needs somebody in their corner. They live in Braddock, Pennsylvania,
(22:10):
where John was mayor for thirteen years, and if working
at homeschooling their three children wasn't enough, recently, their lives
got even busier when John announced that he's running to
be the next U. S. Senator from Pennsylvania. I really
was looking forward to talking to them together for this podcast. Well,
(22:33):
let me just welcome you to this show. I'm so
excited to talk with both John and Giselle. And we
know everybody's been you know, kind of COVID isolated. Just
give our listeners a little insight into managing three kids
while you both stay so busy and watching political campaigns
(22:54):
and fulfilling your duties as lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania. You know,
we have a six year old, a nine year old,
and eleven year old boy. It's fun, it's overwhelming. I
know that you know, we're gonna look back and be
grateful for all this time that we had together. I
mean at times I hide in the closet for a
little bit. Yeah, well, how did the two of you meet.
(23:19):
I'm just gonna say this that she's gonna tell the
story to embarrass me. It's a very romantic story. I
hope everyone has tissues. Uh So at the time, I
was working out of Newark, New Jersey and Food Justice
and food Access. I nutritionist by trade, and I was
at a retreat and I read this article about this
community of Braddick and they talked about the history of
(23:39):
this incredibly rich community, Andrew Carnegie's for steel mill, big
contributions to this country, and then it was kind of
left behind, and that was really upsetting to me. It
just felt wrong. And I loved the Brooklyn Bridge when
I lived in New York. I just love this bridge.
I thought it was magnificent. And I learned that the
(24:01):
steal that built the Brooklyn Bridge came from Braddick. Brazilians.
We believe in signs, and I said, this is a sign.
So I wrote a letter to the borough and I
shared the work that I was doing with Food Justice
and I wanted to visit and learn more and understand
how this could happen to a city like this. And
the letter ended up with John and he called me.
(24:24):
I came to visit, I think like two months later,
and then I arrived and he felt madly, just madly
in love with me. So yeah, so that's how she
tells it, and that's obviously not true. But she enjoys
shutting that out there, and then when people see what
an ogre I look like and which she looks like,
they assumed that it's like, well, that's got to be true.
But it is true that that but for her reaching
(24:46):
out to that letter, I don't know if our paths
would have ever crossed. You know. One of the reasons
that I wanted to talk with both of you is
because you both are known for your public service and
for you know, really trying to help people, and you
have a partnership, and the partnership is really key to
what both of you have been able to accomplish. And
(25:10):
so Giselle, I want to start with you first. How
did you get involved in public service? And really what
I view and reading about everything you're doing a really
creative approach to you know, service and empowerment of people.
Thank you. I think my stems from gratitude. You know.
I came to this country as a young immigrant. My
(25:31):
family essentially live in the shadows for almost fifteen years.
We were undocumented, and we found ourselves in this whole
new world and kind of navigating our way around it.
And I saw things that I knew weren't the best
way for something to be done, and I was never
in a position to be able to do something about it.
(25:52):
So I collected these kind of pains and these stories
and these experiences for when one day I was in
the position to do something about it. And so I
think it comes from I'm grateful that I get to
live in this country and I get to do the
work that I do, and that's what keeps me going.
That really resonates with me. You know, John, your story
(26:16):
is also fascinating to me. How did you originally get
into public service? It's it's your family that that did.
I was in year two of AmeriCorps, which you know
very well. You know the history there. Um. I went
to the Hill House, which was an organization in Pittsburgh's
(26:36):
historic Hill District, which is the Great Black Jazz It's
kind of like the you know, the Second Harlem, if
you will, of America, to teach g D classes and
set up computer labs there, and that was made possible
by AmeriCorps. I was at twenty four year old and
I wanted to get into public service, but I wasn't
sure how, but AmeriCorps made that possible. So so thank
(26:58):
you well. I think in a list of accomplishments that
my husband's most proud of AmeriCorps way up at the top.
So I will pass that on. We need more of
that in America right now. I hope that part of
the change in our politics and our society is trying
to intentionally create more and more opportunities for service, which
(27:22):
then has the benefits that you just described. John, when
you came to do that g e D program, what
was your transition into decigning to run for mayor and Braddock?
How did that happen? Yeah, just to put that in context,
Braddock had lost its population. It was as vibrant and
robust as Silicon Valley is because Pittsburgh and the steel
(27:46):
industry was that industry that was driving American innovation. Fast
forward to when I showed up twenty years ago, you know,
affiliated with AmeriCorps. We lost the population and the community
was around black and it was one of the port is,
one of the porst communities in Pennsylvania. So I started
setting up programming to help young people get their g
(28:08):
d s, get their jobs. There's driver's license. And then
after a couple of years it was going beautifully and
I was feeling really enriched, but two of my students
were killed with guns, and it really hit me with
a realization that it's great that I can get someone
a g D or a job, but that's not much
help if they're not around to to do that. So
(28:29):
I I ran for mayor, wanting to be the change
I hoped to impose or create in my community, and
that would be that you don't lose anybody through gun violence.
And that first race, the young people that I worked with,
you know, my former students, all registered to vote and
went and knocked on door to door for me. And
(28:51):
long story short, I won that first race by one vote,
one vote, one vote. So I have the ultimate every
vote counts story because I would never have been mayor,
lieutenant governor, or you know, having the esteem, privilege, and
honor to be talking to you this morning, but for
that one vote back in two thousand and five. Well,
what I like, though, is that you are willing to
(29:15):
speak out and invite people to come into the conversation.
You've been an outspoken advocate on everything from lgbt Q rights,
immigration reform obviously, to marijuana legalization. One of the subjects
you've really run with as lieutenant governor. But in following
(29:36):
your career and just on that marijuana legalization issue, what
you did was very much in keeping with how I
think of politics. You traveled the whole state, the whole
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. You went to you know, every corner,
engaging people. You had people who agreed with you, people
who disagreed, and people who just wanted to know what
the debate was all about. And that led you then
(29:58):
to be able to make a recommendation and based on
real conversations, how do we get back to that, John,
how do we try to reinstate the sense of um,
you know, not only civility, um, but you know, a
real conversation about the direction of our country going forward.
Well that that what a great question because like it
(30:19):
just brought me back to Pennsylvania has sixty seven counties,
and I insisted to go every single one of them,
and just to give you an idea of the diversity
of Pennsylvania, Like our our smallest county has five thousand
people in it. And it's hard to remember that we're
all Pennsylvanians because our life experiences could be so drastically different.
But you just mentioned the words civility and and my gosh,
(30:41):
like those meetings were all civil, it was such a
great conversation, like going to the reddest communities, the reddest
counties in Pennsylvania, Like it's it's nostalgic, but it's crazy,
is that wasn't even that long ago, and you know
how much things have changed and how toxic things have gotten.
But I also learned that people really want to talk
(31:02):
and people want to be engaged. You really get to
see a person's experience through his or her own eyes
when you're in their own community. Absolutely, and social media
has has weaponized cruelty and given it a velocity that
is unprecedented where if you're in a room and personal,
it's a lot harder to do and say some of
(31:22):
the things that get flown around online and never once
you know, in the reddest county. So your question really
made me nostalgic back to a time where we could
have a conversation. And I also discovered that around Pennsylvanians
are for this. It's not a hard left kind of
niche issue. It is a populist like let's just do
(31:44):
it already thing. You know, of course, more Democrats than
Republicans but a majority of Republicans too. But what has happened,
you know, as has been well documented and as we
have all experienced the fore president's campaign and presidency in bold,
did a lot of people to be more vocal in
expressing racists and xenophobic and other very negative, hateful points
(32:09):
of view. And that's something that your family has experienced firsthand.
And Giselle, you had a particularly unfortunate experience at the
grocery store this past fall. What happened there? So I
do usually have the protection of stay troopers with me
because of my husband's role in this time. I just
was running to the grocery store, which is just three
(32:29):
minutes from my house. I just sometimes like to go
by myself because it's you want to feel normal, right,
And the golden Quewis were on sale, and they those
are my favorite. And I ran to get some golden
Quwi's and I was in line to pay, and this
woman passed and recognized me, you know, she stopped and
it just began from there. She you know, yelled some slurs.
(32:52):
She said that I don't belong here, that I'm a
thief and I'm belonging in this country. And I was paralyzed.
I mean, I'm I think I'm really good at standing
up for someone else, but it's when it's for me,
I just kind of freeze and just start crying. And
that's what I did. And I paid quickly, and I
ran off to my car and I was leaving. She
(33:14):
followed me to the car and continued again yelling slurs
at me. And it was it was a pretty terrible
harbor experience of many people face UM in this country unfortunately. UM.
But I you know, when it happens to you and
it's so close, that hate is so close to your face,
it was a lot to process. Wow, I'm so sorry
(33:34):
that happened. How do you try to deal with that?
How do you understand that? What can we all learn
from that? So I cry a lot. I think that's
my first thing. But you know, I tried to understand
that that woman, for example, she wasn't born that way.
She didn't come out of you know, into this world
(33:54):
hating me because I was born in a different country
or spoke a different language. So I have to understand
that she was taught that, and I my hope is
that she can be the one who breaks that cycle. Right,
we want to continue to break cycles. I I thought
of that incident, thinking like, my gosh, did she have children,
does she have grandchildren? Is she teaching them this? So
(34:17):
I asked that she um received support to be able
to find a way out of this. I wanted her
to see herself and say, I don't really like that person,
you know, I don't want to be that person anymore, UM,
and that she can be the one who breaks that cycle.
We'll be right back. You know. One of the hard
(34:49):
parts though about being in public life is your kids.
And I remember when Chelsea was, you know, maybe old
enough to understand the conversation we were having with her
five or six. We were telling her that, you know,
she would hear mean things said about her daddy and mommy,
and you know, she had to understand that that would happen.
And she was so I could just remember a little
(35:12):
face and her eyes getting really big. Well, why would
anybody do that? Why would anybody say anything mean? And yeah,
we're we're there with you. Yeah, but you have to
prepare your children. And and I know that, UM, you
guys have done that because I've read about how you
talk to your kids and tell them that you know, sadly,
(35:34):
this is part of the world. And when you're out
in the public as you both are, you know that's
going to happen. Do they understand that you think they do?
They really do. They've lived it for a long time.
And I don't wanna you know, I want to shield
as much as I can, but I also want them
to know that this is the world. You know, I'm
raising them not for us. We're raising them for this
(35:54):
world so that they can be agents to combat the
rest that's out there. And I remember the night of
that incident. I came home and I was really upset
and crying for a few hours, and we're trying to
explain what had happened to the kids because I was alone.
In August, who's six, He's like, Mom, you're so adorable.
How could anybody say anything to you? Like he was
(36:16):
out age. Well he's a very perceptive child, That's all
I could say. Well, so now you two have launched
a new adventure because John, you have announced your running
for the Senate. How did you make that decision? Well,
I mean I just always want to be in a
position to serve. I mean it started things in my
(36:37):
life worked out like you know I was the product
of a kind of an unplanned teenage pregnant romance, so
my beginnings could have turned out one way or the other.
But I was fortunate where I ended up in a
place where I'm able to and I want to contribute
because I just wanted to make the world a better
(36:57):
place and pay it forward. And that's a lane that
made the most sense, and that really crystallized after we
got into a place with our former president doing and
saying things that were beyond the pale of dismantling democracy.
And I was so outraged that eight out of our
nine Republican Congressional delegation members who were on the same
(37:20):
ballot saying, you know, the voters loved me. No fraud
in my race, but man, Joe Biden, you rigged it
for him. The fact that there are people willing to
trade political capital and temporary popularity to damage this nation's
democratic franchise appalled me at a level that I never
could have imagined. And I said this in jest, but
(37:41):
it's also true that if I am the next Senator,
I promised to be on Sedition free. I love that,
and everyone knows I'm no fan of politics, I'm too sensitive.
My heart can't handle it. Um. But for me, I
think was you know, my family in Brazil, it's everyone's
him to come to America always, you know, every conversation
(38:02):
I have with them, it's like, I'll see you soon.
It's this this long American dream. And when all this
was happening and everything felt like it was falling apart,
my family stopped saying that, They're like, we're fine here,
and UM, that was a really sad moment because I
love this country so much and I want them to
continue to dream of of being here. And I think
(38:24):
that's what Um. You know, my support for him full came. John.
I know that after you announced your Senate campaign, an
incident that happened in Braddock when you were mayor back
in got some renewed attention on social media particularly, So
I just have to ask you, John, what happened? So
(38:46):
in is outside and experienced a really large and sharp
burst of gunfire and there was an individual, you know,
covered head to toe, couldn't tell what their race was,
what there there was running from this corridor where there's
been a lot of shootings over the years there and
I made that split second decision I called nine one one,
(39:10):
and I got my family in safely, and I made
the decision. This was a few weeks after Sandy Hook
as he as the individual was heading towards our elementary
school to intercept him, didn't point the weapon against him.
It was over in less than thirty seconds because the
police were coming from such a short area. And the
allegation was is that it was somehow racially motivated, when
(39:31):
that just couldn't be further from the truth. What I
can say, though, is is that Braddock served as my
my jury after that, and they knew it had nothing
to do with the race. They knew it had nothing
to do with anything other than somebody rising up to
intervene in a situation where there was undisputed gunfire. Multiple
residents you know, attested to that. And they re elected
(39:54):
me by a greater than three to one margin four
months after this incident, and then to another term four
years later, and then to lieutenant governor. And I've just
said that my twenty years in Braddock, the most thing
I'm most proud of is we stopped gun deaths in
our community for five and a half years for the
first time ever. And it has to be said, profiling.
(40:15):
You know this history in the black community. It's a
real thing, and I certainly understood that, But at no
point in time was I ever aware of this individual's
race or even gender based on how they were dressed
and how far apart we were and how rapidly this
all happened. Well, I want to bring this back to
the two of you because I'm fascinated about partnership and
(40:38):
one of my stories that I love about you, Giselle
is I think it was a birthday and John asked
you what you wanted, and you said you wanted a container.
And I'm not talking about like a little tiny container
for a plant. I'm talking about a container that goes
on a huge ship. And so John just kind of went, okay.
(41:01):
I had just got a nice honorarium, which I never
kept any honorariums, of course, they all went to charity.
And She's like, I need I want to start this
thing called the Free Store, and I'm like okay. So
we would always drive by this place that creates a
container offices, like you know, like out of like a
legitimate ocean cargo shipping container, and the price was X
(41:24):
and my honorarium was literally X I was like, okay, sure,
here you go. And then that was what nine years ago,
nine years ago, and that has become the Free Store,
and she has created something that is as fine as
anything that's ever been done to helping the really basic
fundamental needs of the folks here. It was so the
(41:46):
two of you kind of have educated each other about
all sorts of things during your your partnership. Yes, mostly
me educating him because I'm just I'm just the arm
candy secretary, you know, like, well, it's a great partnership.
I want to thank you for, you know, one of
the best memories with Grace. You know, we were waiting
(42:09):
for your event and everything was running late because that's
what happens in campaigns. And she was starving and grumpy
because that's who she is, and we see you coming
and I said, look, Grace, there she is and she said, great,
but now I'm starving and you've got a big bag
of chips from your husband, and I have the best
(42:29):
picture of her just so to her, you are the
one who fed her that day, and she she that's
a great metaphor because you know that that's how I
think about public service. You know, it is a process
of meeting and yes, feeding all of the needs that
are out there. So I just wish that both of you,
(42:49):
you know, the very best in your you know, public
and professional and personal pursuits altogether. Thank you for talking
to me today. The Pennsylvania Senate election in is one
of the most important contests in the country upcoming, So
(43:11):
if you're paying close attention, as I hope you are,
please come back next week. When I talked to another
terrific Democrat in the race, Malcolm Kenyatta, you know, partners
are great, but what if you don't have one? My
next guests set out to answer that question for one
very specific demographic college students stuck at home during the pandemic.
(43:36):
Iliana Valdez is a senior majoring in computer science at
Yale University. Her brother Jorge graduated from college a few
years ago and now works as a software developer. This fall,
they found themselves sheltering in place, so along with a friend,
they came up with the idea for a new dating
(43:57):
site called okay Zoomer and worked together to build it.
I think it's safe to say it's been a resounding success. Hi,
Alianna and Jorgey, Welcome to the show today. Hi, thanks
for having us. Well. I was so intrigued by Okay
(44:17):
Zoomer and I wanna learn all about that. But first
a little bit about the two of you, your brother
and sister. I'd love to learn more about where your
interest in programming came from. So I love to tell
people that it started in the womb because my mom
was at college studying for computer science when she was
pregnant with me. But after that, like my big brother
(44:38):
did it. So of course, like I wouldn't be like, well,
it's a pretty good combination, but the two of you
working together have created something new. It's called Okay Zoomer,
a great name. What inspired you to do this, Eleana?
How how did you even think about it? So when
(45:00):
we got sent home, UM, a lot of my friends
and I were on Facebook because that's all we had
to do at home UM in quarantined, and a lot
of people were posting really funny memes about not being
able to have a love life anymore and not being
able to find their partner before they graduate. So I
remember we were like, what if we solve that problem?
What did we help people find that partner before they
(45:20):
graduate Yale or they graduate whatever university is that they're
going to. And my brother was like, so quick to
be on board and behind the mission. I love that, Jorge.
So here, your little sister comes home from school and
she says, you know, this is really bad because my
friends and I are feeling really isolated. She comes to
me with this Google form of people who are expressing
(45:41):
their desire to find their match right, and it's got
over ten tho sign ups on it, and she's like,
I'm not sure how I'm going to get these people
their perfect match. And one night and I'm like, Okay,
we can solve this together. Let's let's figure it out. Well,
you did a lot of the programming behind Okay, Zoom
or Orge. What makes it different from other dating apps?
(46:06):
We try to not provide any means of superficial first impression,
so there's no pictures on the site. Really, the only
thing we're doing is giving you basic demographic information and
leaving it on you to reach out to that person. Um.
And another thing that's different is that we only give
you a match every Friday. You know, It's not like Tinder,
(46:26):
where you're getting an endless stream of people that you
might be interested in. So really it's focusing on like
making core personal relationships that are built to withstand and Iliana,
You're not just making potential romantic matches, as I understand it,
You're helping your fellow college students replicate the kind of
random encounters they might have if they were, you know,
(46:49):
in the dining hall or the library or walking out
of a class, so that they could have a more
normal life right now. Yeah, that was a big driving
force behind it. I'm also a freshman counselor and a
lot of our first years like have not been able
to meet other people. Um, so this is definitely like
something we want to apply it to. We want to
make sure that, you know, students who are completely remote
(47:10):
still get that experience of networking, because that's a huge
important part of being at college. Aleana, Why do you
think Okay zoomer has struck such a chord and and
how many people have actually ended up using it so far?
I think a huge part of what it struck such
a chord is because our current apps like Tinder and
stuff like that are very driven on hookups and like
short term interactions, which did not survive the pandemic because
(47:32):
we were gone and separated from each other for eight months,
and so people realize, wow, maybe there needs to be
a different method for me to build these like meaningful
conversations before I start a relationship with someone to make
sure that it's going to last. Um So that's been
a huge like part of why I think it worked.
And we've had over twenty thou people use it so far,
and that number keeps growing. Have you gotten any testimonials
(47:54):
that show that you're doing the right thing, You're you're
really helping people during such a difficult time. Yeah. So
one of my best friends actually is currently in rural Wyoming.
In rural Wyoming, his tender options are like zero to none.
Um So, it's definitely been a huge factor for people
that they still want to date people they have things
in common with, so that means they still want to
(48:15):
date people at their respective universities. But the dating apps
they're out there just aren't cutting it anymore, especially in
our new globalized community that we have. It's just we
know that we're going in the right direction just because
we've been able to serve a lot of people who
haven't been served by the current dating apps anymore. Okay,
before we close, I have to ask have either of
you gone on any Okay Zoomer dates. I've gone in
(48:37):
an Okay Seemer friend date and it was awesome. Met
a nice person from Princeton and check in every now
and then. How about you or Unfortunately I'm out of
the age demographic at this point. Well, I'm sort of
hoping that as you grow and develop this new site
that you expand it for ages, because it's not only
(48:59):
college kids who need to have, you know, positive connections
without the pressure of appearance being front and center and
all the ideas of dating and the pressures that that brings.
So I'll put it a plug for you know, expanding
Okay Zoomer. I want to thank both Iliana and Jorge
(49:21):
and really congratulate you on making such good use of
the time you had during COVID to create something that
can bring people together in some really good and positive ways.
Thank you both very much. Thank you to check out
(49:42):
Okay Zoomer go to Zoomer dot Love. Speaking of partners,
we could not make this podcast without you our listeners,
and I love hearing your stories and ideas for upcoming oos. Recently,
after our episode on doing hard Things, I asked you
(50:06):
to share some of the hard things you've had to do,
and boy, I got so many wonderful responses. Anna wrote
to me about how hard her parents have been working
as they try to keep their small business and employees
afloat during this pandemic. Sharon and so many others wrote
(50:26):
in about dealing with loss and grief, the death of
a loved one, the difficulty conceiving, caring for aging parents,
and so much more. Thank you to everyone who has
written in, and on a related note, for a future episode,
I'll be answering questions from listeners. So if you have
(50:47):
a question about the podcast about public service, about the
skills that I have or haven't mastered during this pandemic,
for example, leave us a message at mine one four
four five eight one four four one. Again that's nine
one four four five eight one four four one. We
(51:11):
just asked that you try to keep it to you know,
a minute or so, or if you prefer, you can
email us at You and Me Both pod at gmail
dot com. I really look forward to hearing from you.
You and Me Both is brought to you by I
(51:32):
Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and
Lauren Peterson, with help from Huma Aberdeen, Nikki E Tour,
Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Rob Russo,
and Lona Valmiro. Our engineer is Zack McNeice and the
(51:56):
original music is by Forest Gray. If you like you
and me both, please help spread the word, tell your
friends about it, post about it on social media, and
make sure to hit the subscribe buttons so you never
miss an episode. You can do that on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(52:20):
Thanks for listening and see you next week
Host
Hillary Clinton
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