April 6, 2021 • 48 mins
How can children thrive during a pandemic? What has this time taught us about the role of education in kids’ lives? And are you a horrible parent, teacher, or caregiver if, at some point in the last year, you were ready to throw in the towel?
This week, Hillary talks to Jamel Holmes, a sixth grade special education teacher in the Bronx who has seen up close how this pandemic is impacting students in one of the poorest congressional districts in the country. She also speaks with economist Emily Oster about what the data tells us about balancing safety, academic achievement, and kids’ wellbeing. Lastly, she sits down with comedian Mike Birbiglia, whose book The New One chronicles his bumpy journey from knowing he should never have kids to becoming a devoted dad.
Jamel Holmes teaches at the East Bronx Academy for the Future. He will graduate this May from Lehman College, CUNY, with a Master of Science as School Building Leader. You can support his work to provide students with the resources they need to learn and thrive at donorschoose.org/classroom/mr-jholmes.
Emily Oster is an economics professor at Brown University known for her writing on parenthood and early childhood. She has published two bestselling parenting books, Expecting Better and Cribsheet, and is releasing her third book, The Family Firm, this August. She also runs a newsletter about evidence-based pregnancy and parenting called ParentData.
Mike Mirbiglia is a comedian and bestselling author whose most recent solo shows, The New One, Thank God for Jokes, and My Girlfriend’s Boyfriend are streaming on Netflix. Mike also wrote, directed, and starred in the films Sleepwalk with Me and Don’t Think Twice. He has written two bestselling books, Sleepwalk with Me and The New One, and currently hosts the podcast “Mike Birbiglia’s Working It Out.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both,
and today I'm taking a look at how kids and
the people who care for them are doing in this pandemic.
I think we're going to be facing a lot of
important questions coming out of this pandemic. Some of them
(00:22):
are about how children have been able to withstand the isolation,
the substituted zoom learning for actually being in a classroom.
There's just so much we don't know, and I think
we're going to be learning and trying to understand what
the impact on kids has been. So later in the show,
(00:43):
we'll be hearing from Emily Auster, who has applied her
skills as an economist and therefore spends her time delving
into data to the incredibly complicated issue of parenting. I'll
also be sitting down with writer and comedian my Berbiglia,
who's talked a lot about his fears and ambivalence about
(01:05):
even becoming a dad. But first I'm talking to someone
who has really been on the front lines of helping
kids in this pandemic. Jamal Holmes, a sixth grade special
education teacher in the Bronx. I am really delighted that
I get to speak to an actual teacher. A lot
(01:25):
of people have understood, maybe for the first time, or
at least in a very personal way, how important teachers are.
When your schools closed down and your kids are at
home and you're figuring out ways of keeping them occupied
trying to learn, all of a sudden, you go, wow,
this is what a teacher does all day, every day.
(01:49):
Jamal first came to our attention through an Instagram account
that celebrates black educators, and in addition to what he
does in the classroom or these days the Virtue a classroom,
he works so hard to make sure that all of
his students have everything they need at home so they
can focus on learning when they sit in front of
(02:09):
that screen. In the past year, he has delivered three
hundred and sixty care packages and counting to his students
with everything in them, from snacks to hand sanitizer. I
was really delighted to speak with him. He is such
a great example of a dedicated teacher. Hello, Jamal, how
(02:31):
are you. I'm doing well, So great to meet and
see you. It's so great to have you on our podcast.
You know, it's been an exhausting year for all of us,
but I think teachers in particular have really borne an
extra set of burdens. So let's just start by checking in,
how are you doing well? I'm doing well. So this
(02:52):
week is spring break, so we kind of have some
time just to kind of like pause, reflect and and
take some time for health care. Around this time. Last year,
our spring break was kind of taken away from us,
and they felt that our students really needed us throughout
that time. So it's good that now we can really,
you know, enjoy some time with the family and just
(03:14):
to kind of do things around the house and take
care of ourselves essentially just the ordinary stuff of life.
How are your students doing? How would you characterize what
they've been through this past year? So it has been
truly difficult for many of our students. But when I
think about my students, perseverance is kind of really what
defines them. You know, they show up. So a lot
(03:36):
of them need an additional push, whether it's you know,
frequent emails and phone calls and things like that. But
when they truly know that they have people in their
lives that genuinely care for them, they'll kind of go
that extra amount. Well, for all of our listeners. Tell
us about your students and a little bit about yourself
to where do you teach, where do your students live
(03:58):
and come from? So um, I teach in the South
Bronx at East Bronx Academy for the Future, and that's
a six to twelve middle school high school. And I
love very opportunity that I get to talk about East
Bronx Academy because I was a student there and I graduated,
and I came back ten years later to teach. I'm
a sixth grade special education teacher. A lot of the
(04:19):
students that I work with have very similar experiences as myself,
you know, growing up in a single parent household, living
in the Bronx, and I wanted to become a teacher
so that way I could be a positive male role model.
And I truly believe that it is easier to build
strong students than to repair broken men. Oh that's a great,
(04:41):
great description. What's a profile of the kind of kids
that you're currently teaching. My students are currently living in
one of the poorest congressional districts in the country, but
they're so motivated and eager to learn, and as far
as like profile in the composition of my classroom. I
(05:02):
work in an I C T classroom, which is an
integrated co teaching classroom, and what that means is it's
the six of the classroom is general education and special education.
So on. Averages about twelve students who come in who
have learning disabilities, and those disabilities ranged from anywhere from
speech and language learning disability. I may have one or
(05:26):
two that are labeled as emotional disturbed, and the vast
majority come in multiple grade levels behind. Did you go
virtually almost from the beginning and has that been the
primary instructional approach that you've used since last year? Yes,
I have been home the entire year. Every now and then,
(05:47):
you know, I'm able to kind of get into the
building when I know that a particular amount of students
are there because I've been taking my students care packages
and doing things beyond the classroom, so if I don't
have to visit them, and can you know, capture ten
students one day in the same building, it's easier to
deliver it there. But as far as teaching, it has
(06:07):
been remotely well. How have you dealt with the fact
that I'm sure some of your students don't have access
to the technology that they've needed to be virtual students.
Do you have any idea how many of your students
didn't have either a computer or internet access when you started.
(06:28):
Particularly in my class, we at least had between twelve
and fifteen students who didn't have devices, and that was
a challenge in itself getting a device, and then one
students had devices. Wi Flife was an issue, right, and
we you know, had to work through that and eventually
the school system was able to kind of provide hot
(06:49):
spots and things like that. But even when our students
got the devices, it was like the proficiency, So now
I need to know how to navigate this device and
do this work. And I think that they were many
other challenges as far as executive functioning skills. Right as
a student who was working from home, you know, you
have to plan. It's the self monitoring, the self control,
(07:10):
the working memory, the time management, and also like the organization. Right,
so first period I'm in this class and after that
class I have to go to this class. Also in
addition to that, you know, the active home life. So
some students are on with us and cameras are off
or you know, when they mute themselves to engage in
academic instruction. Sometimes it's very noisy, it's just so much
(07:31):
happening and not having some sort of structure workspace where
they can actually do their work. And then even at
a very young age, My students are attending eleven years old,
and students would say things like, you know, Mr Holmes,
I can't be in class next period because my mom
is leaving for work and I have to watch a
(07:52):
younger sibling. So, you know, throughout the pandemic, we were
able to really kind of dive in and see like
a deeper view of what I would monies are really facing.
We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. I'm so
(08:15):
glad that you and other teachers working with you have
you paid attention to all of these gaps in their
learning and their access and their time everything you just described.
Is there anything you discovered in teaching online that actually
works better for some students? As a special education teacher
(08:36):
at heart, the first thing is differentiated instruction. Working online,
I'm able to really tailor certain lessons and this student
needs to read allow this student is going to benefit
reading this on this great level. In addition to that,
when I think about the way in which we meet
with parents parents teachers conference. Interesting, have they showed up
(08:57):
more online than they did in person because you could
schedule it around their need or they were at home more. Yes,
So we were able to use platforms in which we
were able to do time slots and it took, you know,
some extra time and just reaching out to parents, are
saying please sign up, but thinking about the opportunity to
get parents involved more, and like, you don't have to
come into the school building, you don't have to sacrifice
(09:19):
leaving work early, You don't have to sacrifice deciding should
you cook dinner or should you go to the evening
parent Teachers conference. I also think about multiple means of engagement,
so synchronous instruction versus the asynchronous instruction. Okay, explain that
for our listeners. What you mean, sure when we talk
about synchronous instruction is everyone is lives and we're working
(09:39):
through this and we're doing this work together. But then
the asynchronous instruction is when students, you know, get their
work online and they can do it at their own pace.
And I was able to use that time to kind
of work with some students who are performing below great level.
You mentioned that you've been providing care packages for students,
and I think that you've been including in those care
(10:02):
packages snacks and essentials and other kinds of activities. How
did you start doing that? And can you walk me
through how you connect with your kids? Yeah, so it
has been next month would be a year since I've
been doing care packages. Oh, that's so nice. It has
been amazing to get out and to be of service
(10:25):
to others. You know, this idea came about because when
we're in the school building, I usually have all these things.
Students coming hang around in my classroom during lunchtime, they
come to after school programming and things like that. And
you know, food is an essential food, drink, shelter, clothing,
those necessary needs have to be met in order for
us to kind of tap into the academics and everything
(10:46):
else becomes secondary. So when we're thinking about the care packages,
and you know, actually have a few. Um, so this
is one. Oh that's big. That's like a big container
filled with all kinds of goodies. I see, Well, you
tell me what's in it. So, um, here like some
hand wipes, we have, um, Colgate two brush and toothpaste. Um,
(11:08):
we have some dove soap for our students. We have
some protective gear, some masks and some hand sanitizing wipes.
We have socks, we have washcloths, we have towels and deodorant.
So it's tons of tons of things that we that
I've been doing to support our students. And in addition
(11:29):
to that, I have been doing what I call the
green bag. Is this green bag bag? Yes? And and
students were saying things like I couldn't come to school
today because I didn't have clean clothes, and I said,
there must be something I can do. So we have um,
got clothes, washing detergent, um, you know, a whole setup
(11:52):
of just things to support them. Well, I love that.
Is there a teacher as you look back on your
own experience at a kid, maybe at the academy yourself,
that you still remember who inspired you to become the
teacher you are today? Hands down, my seventh grade teacher,
Christopher MDN. And he is currently a professor at Columbia University.
(12:14):
And he is truly in a mentor inspired me day
in and day out with his work constantly, you know,
following his work on social media, touching base with him,
and he's just truly has been that model for me. Well,
I bet there are going to be a lot of
young men and women in a few years who look
back and say that you did the same for them. Jamal,
(12:37):
do you have a specific conversation or experience that you've
had this past year that really lets you know that
the work you're doing is making a difference. Sure, So,
I think weren't very recent particular experiences. Just last week
I was out delivering care packages and that same even
(12:57):
in uh student contact, you know, through text message, and
said to me homes like, how did you know that
I needed socks? And I was like, you know, I
didn't know that you needed socks, but it was a
part of the care package, and you know, he said, wow,
like it's almost as if you were in my home
because these are the items that I need it. And
(13:20):
I said, you know, please reach out to me and
let me know what else you need. I received a
surplus of things at home, and this is why I'm
doing this, to make sure that you all have the
items that you need. So I think that kind of
stuck with me because you just kind of never know
and our students, and at least I know my students
for example, not all of them are going to say, like,
(13:42):
you know, I need this, but if you give them something,
they'll find use of it. So it's also like this
trust and it's like homes, I know you got me
beyond the classroom. You know, this really reminds me of
how important acts of kindness are because that's really what
you're doing, and you're modeling Jamal that you never know
(14:03):
what somebody needs and trying to provide help for them
without embarrassing them because you're giving them something that they
need but didn't even know to ask for. It comes
out of your love and your kindness and your understanding
of what your students are dealing with on a daily basis.
Is there anything you want to add as we are
(14:24):
hopefully coming out of this pandemic, but things that you
hope that people don't forget going forward. So I think
that throughout the pandemic, because many of our students started
learning at home, more families started to become more engage
and be a part of their child's education. And oftentimes
you see where it's just like, Nope, that's the school.
(14:46):
You guys are the professionals. You guys do this. But
as we think about this pandemic. We really needed it
to be all hands on deck. So I just want
to just kind of thank all of our parents, all
of our teachers for collaborating, and our school administrators and
everyone for just coming together to do the best, and
you know, putting out children first and making sure that
(15:07):
they have the supports to kind of navigate through this
difficult time. You know you've made your passion, your purpose,
your love of teaching, Your conviction about the possibilities ahead
for your your students and what you can contribute to
make them everything they can be to live up to
their own God given potential is so inspiring to me.
(15:30):
And I really appreciate your taking the time to talk
with me and say a lot of your students the
next time you are online with them from me, thank you.
I so well. If you'd like to support teachers like
Jamal Holmes in providing students with the resources they need
(15:51):
to learn and thrive, visit the donors Choose website. Jamal
posts all of his projects there and you can pitch
in at donors Choose dot org slash classroom slash Mr
dash Jay Holmes. That's h O l M E S.
(16:15):
My next guest is Emily Auster. Emily is an economics
professor at Brown University, and she's also the best selling
author of several parenting books, Expecting Better, Crib Sheet, and
The Family Firm, which comes out this August. You know,
a lot of what we historically have thought about how
(16:36):
to raise kids, how to be a good parent, has
been anecdotal. We pass it on from friend to friend,
generation of generation. But Emily Auster has really dug into
the data and evidence about what works. She has been
a valuable voice during COVID helping parents make sense of
conflicting and confusing information to make the best decisions for
(17:00):
themselves and their kids. But I began my conversation with
Emily with a question about her own childhood. You know,
it's been fascinating to read about and follow your career,
and before we dive into parenthood, i'd love to hear
more about something you mentioned in an interview with The
(17:21):
New Yorker in apparently you were less than two years
old when you would talk to yourself a lot, and
in fact, your parents had a developmental psychologist record and
then publish a book analyzing your monologues. Now, do you
have any memory of that or in retrospect, can you
(17:42):
tell us what you were saying or you were thinking. Yeah,
so I remember when the book came out because I
was like nine or ten, but I of course do
not remember the recording, and I have read it or
I've tried to read it. Most of what I'm saying
is quite boring. Um. And so you know, I've seen
people write about like my Child's Poet. I'm just like
listing stuff that happened. I'm just like, today we did this.
(18:04):
Tomorrow we're gonna do this, We're gonna go to childboard,
we're gonna buy diapers, we're gonna pick up Like that's
my whole narrative. It's just stuff that's going to happen
tomorrow and what happened today. You have two children yourself
now right, You have a daughter named Penelope and Finn,
a son, yes nine and five, And you know your
books became really Phenomenon's Expecting Better Crib Sheet and The
(18:29):
Family Firm, which is coming out in August. And you're
so good at breaking down the research because there's so
much information out there. There's so much stuff flooding into
our heads about everything, and you know, parenting is our
biggest and most important lifelong responsibility, and how do you
make sense of it all? And how did you get
(18:50):
interested in helping other parents to wade through the complexity. Yeah,
so for me, that's really started with my own pregnancy.
And so I got pregnant with Penelope, and you know,
I was an economist, I was a professor. I was
doing my professor things. But you know, like many of us,
sort of when you get pregnant, it kind of it's
not that it takes over, like you can't do other things,
(19:11):
but it's very like particular first pregnance is very occupying,
and there were a lot of questions that I had
about what I could do and what I couldn't do,
and what was the right set of choices to make.
And I basically felt like I couldn't get the answers
that I wanted, or that the books and even my
doctors were not always kind of explaining to the extent
(19:33):
that I wanted things explained. And I kind of found
myself using a lot of what I was doing in
my job, where I was looking into research and evaluating
research and thinking about the quality of research and using
that data to structure my questions. I found I was
basically doing that in my pregnancy, and you know, having
these interactions with my husband, who claims that he's the
(19:56):
villain in the book, which is not how I see it, um,
but you know, have in these interactions where I would
say like, I think we should do this, here's the research,
and then he would say like, oh, well what about
this other you know, what about this piece of evidence?
You know? And so I kind of started doing this,
and then I was explaining to people and some those
people be like, oh, I would want to know that,
and then that's sort of ultimately led into the book,
(20:16):
and then that's kind of led into this whole other
life that I never sure this residency is some extap
with you also, like a sort of version of this life.
I did not think I would have, well, you know,
the so called rules for pregnancy that people have been told,
you know, no caffeine at all ever when you're pregnant,
(20:37):
and natural births are best and and breastfeed for this
many months and absolutely no alcohol. You really dove into that.
I mean a lot of people didn't have the capacity
in the background to be able to do what you did.
And what did you find? So, I mean, I think
that there are sort of little pieces of what I found,
and then there are are big pieces. I think, you know,
(20:58):
one kind of overarching theme and a lot of this
stuff is many of these things that we're told as
sort of prohibitions or you must do this, or you
must not do this, the evidence is more nuanced, So
you know, breastfeeding is a good example where the sort
of very long term breastfeeding is gonna make your kids
smarter and thinner and better and more like a superhero.
You know, that's not really supported in the best data.
(21:21):
And you know, in the books, I spend a lot
of time trying to help people understand where correlation and
causality are different, and how hard it is to learn
from data that compare women who do different things because
they tend to be different in other ways. And I think,
you know, in the end, a lot of the conclusions
and pregnancy are like it's okay to have a little
bit of coffee, you know, depending on your risk tolerance,
(21:41):
there may be a case for occasionally having a glass
of wine also, and sort of going through some of
those pieces of data, but I think the big picture
message in all of the books is that you know,
these are choices you need to think carefully about for yourself,
and that in most cases there are some small risks
and maybe some small benefits, and that you know, mental preferences,
maternal preferences are actually going to play a pretty important
(22:04):
role in making those choices. And there's a sort of
like autonomy aspect of the message. I remember when I
was pregnant, and then of course when Chelsea was born,
and so my mother would say things like, I don't know,
I was knocked out for your birth and your your brothers.
I don't remember anything. So you guys turned out okay.
(22:25):
And then of course when Chelsea had her first child,
I'm in there saying, well, I don't know, I didn't
do that. That's worked out okay for you. I didn't
breastfeed for a year. I breastfed for four months, and
seems like you're okay. So it is an important way
of trying to relieve some of the anxiety to say, okay,
(22:46):
there's a broad range of decisions that are going to
be okay if you are, you know, making intentional, well
informed choices. Yeah, And I think that you know, this
sort of modern experience of parenting is this kind of
like I want to do it right, and this is like,
I'm going to achieve this in the best way possible.
And I think that that has led us in some
(23:08):
cases to really put a lot of pressure on ourselves
but also on other people, like, well, you didn't do
it the way I did it, and so your way
must be wrong. And I think, you know, dialing that
down and saying like, hey, there's the best way for you,
in the best way for me, and they may not
actually be the same, is a way into a little
bit of maybe a little bit less judgment, you know,
of other people, but also to some extentpt for of ourselves.
So I have to ask you, have you followed your
(23:29):
own advice with your two kids and are they different?
Were that? Was it different parenting Penelope versus FIV? Yeah,
so I think, like, you know, I wrote the first
book when I was spreading with Penelope, and there's a
long gap between the first two books and the sort
of second one is really I sort of tell people
I had to have the second kid to write the
second book about parenting, because you know, with your first kid,
(23:51):
every like if I wrote a book based on early
parenting of the first kid, it would be like fifty
pages long, and it would contain every neurosis you know.
I I once like it's spent a lot of time
trying to figure out if she should wear mittens, because
like my mom told me that if they wear mittens,
they won't use their hands. And I was like, what
is that? You know? And that's the second kid, You're
(24:12):
like a mittens who can like And so I think
that my that with Finn, I just I had a
much better sense of what to expect, and so it
was much easier to focus in on the sets of
decisions that were most important right One area that I
certainly resonated with in your academic work is on a
policy level, how the United States could get our infant
(24:35):
mortality right down. That's a issue I've worked on for
a really long time, and you point out some of
the obvious things that should be done, which is, you know,
to make sure we do everything we can to prevent
preterm births, to make sure people women have access to
healthcare from the very beginning, which is one of the
reasons why I was a huge proponent of the Affordable
(24:58):
Care Act and the expansion to Medicaid, because it's hard
to get prenatal care if you can't afford to go
to the doctor, and then looking at the traumas that
happen in labor delivery and postnatal care and therefore mortality
in poor communities, because it's just outrageous that in our country,
(25:20):
African American women have an infant mortality and a maternal
mortality rate that is so much higher, not just than
white women in the United States, but in some parts
of our country, like Texas, certain parts of Texas. It
puts them in kind of third world categories. So I
really appreciate the way you took that issue in particular
(25:41):
and expanded your focus. Yeah, and I think, you know,
there we write about that and think about it more broadly.
I think that for me, a huge thing that comes
out is the need to support women even once they're
at home, and so that this piece is really missing,
particularly in you know, among women of call and particularly
in lower income communities in the US, that you know,
(26:03):
we kind of maybe we support them well in the hospital,
but then they're sort of sent home in the social
support kind of crumbles in a way that that it
simply does not in many European countries. And I think,
you know, what we were trying to push a little
bit there is is to really make sure that we
think about the policy solutions. How can we make sure
that people are supported three weeks, in four weeks in
(26:24):
when you know right now there's no paid family leave.
I know this is something we are likely aligned on
that having you know better, you know better paid family
leave in a national sense is really important. It's important
for moms, important for baby, is important for our families.
We know what works. We just have refused, willfully refused
over many years, even with the convincing evidence about how
(26:47):
these investments early pay off in terms of health and
social consequences that can be avoided or at least blunted.
And that brings me to COVID because here we are
amidst of a pandemic, and I think that the effects
of both loss of learning and then social isolation and
(27:09):
some of the mental health issues that are beginning to
be observed and reported, you know, really raise some big
red flags. So what do you think are good ways
for kids to stay engaged uh and connected and hopeful
about their futures? And do you have any advice about
(27:30):
how to make you know, virtual learning more engaging for
kids who find it isolating. The second piece is very
hard because I think for a lot of kids are
not even logging on, so it's like sort of put
aside making it better, like you got to get them
on the computer. Um. So, you know, I do think
that there's a space for trying to improve our our
(27:53):
ability to kind of find the kids for whom this
is really not working and try to scaffold a little bit,
whether that's smaller group meetings in schools, which some districts
have done. Um, basically try to get some kids out
of the house, even though that's really hard. What some
schools have done, even if they're not open in person,
is said, you know, we're going to organize some outdoor,
(28:13):
socially distanced meetups so kids can see other kids. Because
I think, you know, if you have little kids, you
kind of realize, like at three o'clock, even if you
have the best you know, synchronous and my kids go
to a great school and occasionally there are distance learning days,
and you know, even with the school trying really hard
and being on the you know, having them on synchronous
zoom all day, they need to go outside and see
(28:34):
other people. At the end of the day, and I
think we could do more to try to help facilitate that.
There are ways to do that safely. You know, kids
outdoor to playground in a mask, that's a really low
risk environment. Um and I think, you know, schools and
districts and parents to some extent could be working to
try and make that possible. I love the idea of
(28:55):
trying to get school districts and and maybe partner civic
organization and not for profits to think about what could
be done to get more kids outside and get them active. Finally,
I wanted to ask you about rethinking parenthood post COVID.
You know, I think a lot of people are reevaluating
so much in their lives right now, and what are
(29:18):
the roles that schools should play in communities and how
do we raise happy and healthy, productive kids. Do you
have any thoughts about what you'd like to see in
terms of changes once we finally come out of this
pandemic that would better support parents, educators, and kids. Yeah.
(29:38):
I mean, I think in some ways this experience of
virtual school has really highlighted how important school is and
the sort of pieces that school is is important for.
And I think that we have at least in some
ways sort of push so much in the direction of
school being about test scores and achieving things in testing
and how much math do we do and what are
(29:59):
we do earlier? And are you reading at the end
of kindergarten and in kindergarten and younger kids especially like
the kind of academic push in that space, and I
wonder whether there will be a little bit of a
pull back to say, you know, one of the things
we've realized is that like a lot of the things
that are really important about school are the sort of
like emotional development of kids, and they need to learn
(30:22):
how to interact with other people, and that that's actually
really important for being a productive member of society. So
I kind of do wonder whether we'll see more of
a push in schools almost teaching that stuff, sort of
trying to push that as a piece of a curriculum
that is kind of on par with, you know, math.
I really agree with you, because I think a lot
(30:45):
of the different styles of learning and teaching have been
compressed into a very narrow band about what teaching and
academic success should look like. But Emily Austir, I cannot
thank you enough for talking with me today. I literally
could talk to you all day. This was amazing. Thank
you so much, Secretary for insights on parenting and pandemic safety.
(31:15):
You can subscribe to Emily's newsletter. It's called parent Data.
Just go to her website Emily Aster. That's O. S T.
E r dot net to subscribe. The first thing you
should know about Mike Barbiglia, which will become abundantly clear shortly,
(31:38):
is that he is very funny. The second thing to
know about Mike is that he is unflinching, lee honest.
Both of these traits are on full display in his
most recent book, The New One, which chronicles his bumpy
journey from knowing he should never have kids to becoming
(31:58):
a devoted dad. Mike is a comedian, actor, writer, and
director known for his hilarious one man shows on and
off Broadway. That's actually how The New One originated on stage.
He and his wife Jen have one daughter, Una, and
when Mike and I spoke, Una was five and three
(32:20):
quarters years old, but who's counting. I am so happy
to welcome you to this show. Mike. You've spent a
lot of time on stage and in your books talking
about parenting, especially in the New One, which was published
last year. I thought it was painfully and disarmingly honest
(32:42):
because you talk about not only becoming a father, which
was quite a journey for you, but feeling like a father,
sort of growing into the role. And here you are
the father of a five and three quarter year old daughter.
Thanks for being specific. The book is very By the way,
that's my cat, Massie, who really enjoys just being in
(33:06):
the mix. I attempted to not include Massie, but Massi
is uh she she follows politics, my kind of cat,
absolutely so. Um, what I would say about the book,
the book is a is called The New One, and
it's a it's sort of a triple or quadruple on
chandre of like the new baby in the new life
(33:29):
and the new consciousness and all of these new feelings
one might have when one has a child. And when
I say one, I'm very specific because what I learned
after doing comedy for twenty years and talking about murder
and awful, you know, horrible things in my comedy, is
(33:51):
that nothing is as controversial as parenting. You got it
close to the bone. Oh my gosh. I had no
idea because here I am writing this book about my
experience of like not being sure about bringing a child
into this world, and the earth is sinking into the ocean,
(34:11):
and and people are terrible often, And then you get
some people read the book and they go, well, this
is not a guide for parenting, and I go, right,
this is a this is a humorous memoir about my
specific experience of going through this. And a majority of
(34:33):
the time, you know I did. I did a version
of this story on Broadway for a hundred performances in
two eighteen and uh nineteen and released the book, and
a majority of the response I get is positive in
the sense that people feel a Catharsis from when you
open up and tell them these things that you're uncomfortable
even saying yourself we're putting down on the page or
(34:54):
saying on stage. A majority of the time you find
that people, I would say, actually tips towards more. Mothers
approached me and say I didn't connect with my daughter
or son until they were a year old, and I
didn't know what was what I was gonna do. And
you realize when you you open up and tell stories
just how common that fear is. Right, you helped so
(35:18):
many people. I think I feel that they weren't alone,
that they didn't need to be feeling guilty or even
ashamed of their own feelings. But you know the other
thing I wanted to mention. You've written about it, You've
talked about it. I mean, you were an anxious child.
You you had cancer when you were younger, you had
you know, sleep disorders, one which resulted in you're literally
(35:41):
walking into a glass wall in a hotel and and
and badly injuring yourself. I mean, you had a lot
of reason to wonder. You were being very self reflective.
I think, Mike, Yeah, I think the chapter where I
referenced all of my maladies is called my Body as
a Lemon Enough, that's really how I feel. I really
(36:04):
feel that way sometimes. I've got rem sleep behavior disorder,
I had cancer, i had Type two diabetes. I mean,
I'm just like a walking pre existing condition. And I
was like, I don't we don't need more of these,
We don't need to more bring more of these in
the world. This is this model, but indeed we do.
That's what's so striking about the book is how it
(36:26):
shows we need all kinds of folks. And and there's
another brutally honest moment in the book when you get
the flu and you were touring, and you know, you
drag yourself home and literally you're just dying on the
couch and your wife says you're not helping enough around
the house. And then you think, and I this really
(36:49):
caught me when I read it, I get why Dad's leave.
And it wasn't an endorsement of dad's leaving. And it's
not it's not a laugh line. It's not a laugh line.
It was a painful, you know, revelation actually, because people
are overwhelmed by the pressure of their own lives, especially
you know, right now, and you're giving voice to that. Yeah,
(37:13):
you know. I'll tell you an interesting like anecdote about
mounting the show originally off Broadway and then bringing to Broadways.
When it was off Broadway, there was a review that
was really positive about the show and really negative about
that moment where I think, I get why dads leave,
and it clearly like triggered something in this person where
(37:34):
they said, you know, I think they said something in
the reviewed it to the effect of I don't get
white dad's leave. I get why why women get divorced,
you know, And I was like, oh, okay, Well, that's
yours and this is that's your story. This is my story,
and it's a thought. And as I make clear in
the in the book and the show, I'm not leaving.
I'm in. I'm all in. Uh. But what we did
(37:56):
when we moved the show to Broadway is we we
really meditated on what is it that is triggering these
people to be upset about this line? And so I
came up one day with this idea of saying, I
have this thought, and I can't believe my own thought.
I get why Dad's leave, And that way the audience
(38:18):
knows going into the line that I don't approve of
my own actions and behavior in that moment. And it
was that priming that allowed I would say, like a
majority of the audience to be on board for this
really dark thought that a lot of people have, and
a lot of people have come up and said to me,
thanks for saying that. I've had people literally in tears
(38:41):
at the stage. You're saying, this is the first time
I understood like why my parents left, and and it's
devastating to hear, but it's also you go like, well,
it's worth what I'm doing, which is confessional comedy. It's
worth it for that. We'll be right back. You know,
(39:10):
my mother was basically abandoned by her parents, and honest
to goodness, Mike, I think she thought about that every
day of her life until she died at ninety two.
So abandonment, it's about one of the worst things anybody
can experience. But that doesn't mean a lot of people
don't think about it. And actually thinking about it, in
(39:31):
my view anyway, helps you say, wait a minute, I
wouldn't want to leave. How could I not live with? You? Know,
Jan and Una you're One of the other descriptions you
use in the book is that you said you often
felt like the family intern, the pudgy I think I
think I said that, and the pudgy, milkless vice president
(39:53):
of the family. You describe something that a lot of
fathers feel, where you say, look, everything I can do,
Jen can do better your wife Jen. And a lot
of fathers feel that way. I mean, when confronted with
this little, tiny, helpless infant. I think most fathers sort
of stand there and stare like, Okay, you know, when
can you be old enough to you know, ride a
(40:14):
bike or throw a ball? Yeah, that's actually been one
of the things in COVID I've been able to do
with my daughter, which is if we go out and
play soccer, and we go in nature walks, and we
went snow tubing a few weeks ago. I mean, the
joke of the book is that, you know, you hear
all these cliches about children, it's the most joy I'll
(40:38):
ever experience from other parents, you know, I call them zombies,
you know, because they're just like, it's the most joy,
it's the most joy. And you're like, all right, you know,
let me let me figure this out myself. And then
and then in the book, you know, spoiler alert at
the end, you know, I say, you know, it's the
most joy. I'm I'm seeing the world through baby's eyes,
(40:58):
which which is a cliche that people also say that
you'll see the world through baby's eyes, and you do,
you know, and at a certain point if if you're lucky,
but it's not. The key thing that I learned is
you don't all do it at the same time. It
is the hardest balancing aft, trying to get the balance right,
(41:20):
your balance, your you know, the mom's balance, the balance
between the two of you, and then all of a sudden,
this little person who was pretty a neert for a while,
starts having opinions, starts expressing them. Right, you know, what
to eat and what to wear and what she wants
to do. And so now the balance is is like tripartheid,
(41:41):
it's the three of you. Well that was my Yeah,
that was part of the thing. I grew up with
an older brother and two older sisters, and my my
oldest sisters eleven years older than me. And so when
I was like when I was in his age, my
sister Gina was like sixteen and like, and my other
sister was probably thirteen, and like, I mean, I remember
(42:02):
these fights that were like they were raw. I mean
it was like world wrestling around our house. You couldn't
even believe. I remember a fight where it's like where
my mom was so mad. I never told us on
stage or anything, but like, my mom was so mad
that that that my sisters hadn't cleaned their shared room,
(42:24):
that she took all of their clothes and through it.
I'm not I'm not making this up. I'm not exaggerating.
Through it in the sewer across the street, throw it
in the sewer, and and and so I was this
little assistant to my sister's Gina and Patty, and so
they had me running interference and carrying the clothes from
(42:48):
the sewer back into their room. I was the intern then.
Also it was this thing where it was like, oh
my gosh. I remember hearing my sisters say to my mom,
I hate you, and I remember thinking, well, that that's
a bad deal. You know, that's a that's a Ponzi scheme.
(43:10):
You know. You put all your time and energy into
this person or these people, these kids, and at certain point,
no matter what you do, they're gonna say some variation
on I hate you, I don't appreciate you. Yeah. Well,
and that's a write of passage. Hopefully you get through,
but it's painful when it happens to you. And now
that you've got a few years of actual parenting under
(43:34):
your belt, would you say you were worried about the
right things. Uh. There's a moment in the book where
where I asked my brother Joe for advice about having
a child, and he says, it's relentless. And I think
(43:54):
that that has proven to be very true. It doesn't stop.
And so in that and parenting is so much more
involved than I could have ever imagined. And also it's
with your your body and your mind, but it's with
your heart too, and so it's it's always sort of
pulling out your heartstrings in this way that I had
(44:14):
never experienced before. So in that sense, it's harder, um.
But then conversely, it's more rewarding than you could imagine.
You know. I have friends who say, like, how would
you describe it now that you have a child who's five.
I say, it's like, it's like your aperture opening at
a certain point if if you're lucky, I mean not
(44:36):
everybody is the same, but your aperture opening and you go,
oh my goodness. I can see that, and I can
see that, and I can feel that emotion. So that's
been my experience. I only have one piece of advice.
The book is all about whenever people think like, this
is a bad guy for parenting, I'm like, yes, absolutely right,
it's a terrible guys. I'm i'm, I'm, I'm telling you
(44:58):
all the ways to do it wrong so that you
can do it right. Um. But I think that if
there is one lesson from the book, if you buy
into the book, is about candor and about I believe
that being honest with your children is one of the
best things that you can give to them, because I
think that being honest with people who you care about
(45:19):
is our best chance at becoming closer to the people
we love. Oh wow, that's a wonderful note to end on, Mike.
That's so beautiful. You know, when you're on stage again,
when we're all vaccinated and you can be in front
of a live audience, if you say that, you're going
to hear this. Oh, come up women in the audience,
(45:42):
because that is so touching. This has been a real joy.
Thank you, Mike. Mike's latest book is called The New One,
and you can hear him on his podcast Mike le
As working it out. Well, there's so much that I
(46:06):
hope happens for our kids. Our parents, are caregivers, are
educators coming out of this pandemic. I hope that we've
learned some lessons about how we can support each other
and what works for different kids and what works for us,
the adults who are trying to make sense of it all.
I'm really glad that there's going to be help coming
(46:27):
from the federal government for families and for schools and
for child care centers and for lots of places that
families need in this difficult time. I'm hoping businesses get
back up and going as fast as possible so parents
get their jobs back, they get to know that they're
going to be able to provide for their families. And
(46:50):
I hope that we also keep supporting each other, not
just online, as important as that is, but in person,
finding ways to reach out and make sure that everybody
is doing as well as we can under the circumstances.
I for one, can't wait for summer when you know
most of the adults in our country will be vaccinated
(47:13):
and we can get outside with our kids and with
each other and you know, try to remember what that
was like. But until then, you know, take care of
yourself and keep getting vaccinated and make sure everybody you
know gets vaccinated. To you and me, both is brought
to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran,
(47:38):
Kathleen Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help from Juma Aberdeen,
nicki etur Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill,
Rob Russo and Lona Valmro. Our engineer is Zack McNeice
and the original music is by Forrest Gray. If you
(48:00):
like you and me both, spread the word, post about
it on social media, send it to your friends, and
make sure to hit the subscribe button so you're the
first to know when a new episode drops. You can
do that on I Heart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. See you next week.
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both,
and today I'm taking a look at how kids and
the people who care for them are doing in this pandemic.
I think we're going to be facing a lot of
important questions coming out of this pandemic. Some of them
(00:22):
are about how children have been able to withstand the isolation,
the substituted zoom learning for actually being in a classroom.
There's just so much we don't know, and I think
we're going to be learning and trying to understand what
the impact on kids has been. So later in the show,
(00:43):
we'll be hearing from Emily Auster, who has applied her
skills as an economist and therefore spends her time delving
into data to the incredibly complicated issue of parenting. I'll
also be sitting down with writer and comedian my Berbiglia,
who's talked a lot about his fears and ambivalence about
(01:05):
even becoming a dad. But first I'm talking to someone
who has really been on the front lines of helping
kids in this pandemic. Jamal Holmes, a sixth grade special
education teacher in the Bronx. I am really delighted that
I get to speak to an actual teacher. A lot
(01:25):
of people have understood, maybe for the first time, or
at least in a very personal way, how important teachers are.
When your schools closed down and your kids are at
home and you're figuring out ways of keeping them occupied
trying to learn, all of a sudden, you go, wow,
this is what a teacher does all day, every day.
(01:49):
Jamal first came to our attention through an Instagram account
that celebrates black educators, and in addition to what he
does in the classroom or these days the Virtue a classroom,
he works so hard to make sure that all of
his students have everything they need at home so they
can focus on learning when they sit in front of
(02:09):
that screen. In the past year, he has delivered three
hundred and sixty care packages and counting to his students
with everything in them, from snacks to hand sanitizer. I
was really delighted to speak with him. He is such
a great example of a dedicated teacher. Hello, Jamal, how
(02:31):
are you. I'm doing well, So great to meet and
see you. It's so great to have you on our podcast.
You know, it's been an exhausting year for all of us,
but I think teachers in particular have really borne an
extra set of burdens. So let's just start by checking in,
how are you doing well? I'm doing well. So this
(02:52):
week is spring break, so we kind of have some
time just to kind of like pause, reflect and and
take some time for health care. Around this time. Last year,
our spring break was kind of taken away from us,
and they felt that our students really needed us throughout
that time. So it's good that now we can really,
you know, enjoy some time with the family and just
(03:14):
to kind of do things around the house and take
care of ourselves essentially just the ordinary stuff of life.
How are your students doing? How would you characterize what
they've been through this past year? So it has been
truly difficult for many of our students. But when I
think about my students, perseverance is kind of really what
defines them. You know, they show up. So a lot
(03:36):
of them need an additional push, whether it's you know,
frequent emails and phone calls and things like that. But
when they truly know that they have people in their
lives that genuinely care for them, they'll kind of go
that extra amount. Well, for all of our listeners. Tell
us about your students and a little bit about yourself
to where do you teach, where do your students live
(03:58):
and come from? So um, I teach in the South
Bronx at East Bronx Academy for the Future, and that's
a six to twelve middle school high school. And I
love very opportunity that I get to talk about East
Bronx Academy because I was a student there and I graduated,
and I came back ten years later to teach. I'm
a sixth grade special education teacher. A lot of the
(04:19):
students that I work with have very similar experiences as myself,
you know, growing up in a single parent household, living
in the Bronx, and I wanted to become a teacher
so that way I could be a positive male role model.
And I truly believe that it is easier to build
strong students than to repair broken men. Oh that's a great,
(04:41):
great description. What's a profile of the kind of kids
that you're currently teaching. My students are currently living in
one of the poorest congressional districts in the country, but
they're so motivated and eager to learn, and as far
as like profile in the composition of my classroom. I
(05:02):
work in an I C T classroom, which is an
integrated co teaching classroom, and what that means is it's
the six of the classroom is general education and special education.
So on. Averages about twelve students who come in who
have learning disabilities, and those disabilities ranged from anywhere from
speech and language learning disability. I may have one or
(05:26):
two that are labeled as emotional disturbed, and the vast
majority come in multiple grade levels behind. Did you go
virtually almost from the beginning and has that been the
primary instructional approach that you've used since last year? Yes,
I have been home the entire year. Every now and then,
(05:47):
you know, I'm able to kind of get into the
building when I know that a particular amount of students
are there because I've been taking my students care packages
and doing things beyond the classroom, so if I don't
have to visit them, and can you know, capture ten
students one day in the same building, it's easier to
deliver it there. But as far as teaching, it has
(06:07):
been remotely well. How have you dealt with the fact
that I'm sure some of your students don't have access
to the technology that they've needed to be virtual students.
Do you have any idea how many of your students
didn't have either a computer or internet access when you started.
(06:28):
Particularly in my class, we at least had between twelve
and fifteen students who didn't have devices, and that was
a challenge in itself getting a device, and then one
students had devices. Wi Flife was an issue, right, and
we you know, had to work through that and eventually
the school system was able to kind of provide hot
(06:49):
spots and things like that. But even when our students
got the devices, it was like the proficiency, So now
I need to know how to navigate this device and
do this work. And I think that they were many
other challenges as far as executive functioning skills. Right as
a student who was working from home, you know, you
have to plan. It's the self monitoring, the self control,
(07:10):
the working memory, the time management, and also like the organization. Right,
so first period I'm in this class and after that
class I have to go to this class. Also in
addition to that, you know, the active home life. So
some students are on with us and cameras are off
or you know, when they mute themselves to engage in
academic instruction. Sometimes it's very noisy, it's just so much
(07:31):
happening and not having some sort of structure workspace where
they can actually do their work. And then even at
a very young age, My students are attending eleven years old,
and students would say things like, you know, Mr Holmes,
I can't be in class next period because my mom
is leaving for work and I have to watch a
(07:52):
younger sibling. So, you know, throughout the pandemic, we were
able to really kind of dive in and see like
a deeper view of what I would monies are really facing.
We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. I'm so
(08:15):
glad that you and other teachers working with you have
you paid attention to all of these gaps in their
learning and their access and their time everything you just described.
Is there anything you discovered in teaching online that actually
works better for some students? As a special education teacher
(08:36):
at heart, the first thing is differentiated instruction. Working online,
I'm able to really tailor certain lessons and this student
needs to read allow this student is going to benefit
reading this on this great level. In addition to that,
when I think about the way in which we meet
with parents parents teachers conference. Interesting, have they showed up
(08:57):
more online than they did in person because you could
schedule it around their need or they were at home more. Yes,
So we were able to use platforms in which we
were able to do time slots and it took, you know,
some extra time and just reaching out to parents, are
saying please sign up, but thinking about the opportunity to
get parents involved more, and like, you don't have to
come into the school building, you don't have to sacrifice
(09:19):
leaving work early, You don't have to sacrifice deciding should
you cook dinner or should you go to the evening
parent Teachers conference. I also think about multiple means of engagement,
so synchronous instruction versus the asynchronous instruction. Okay, explain that
for our listeners. What you mean, sure when we talk
about synchronous instruction is everyone is lives and we're working
(09:39):
through this and we're doing this work together. But then
the asynchronous instruction is when students, you know, get their
work online and they can do it at their own pace.
And I was able to use that time to kind
of work with some students who are performing below great level.
You mentioned that you've been providing care packages for students,
and I think that you've been including in those care
(10:02):
packages snacks and essentials and other kinds of activities. How
did you start doing that? And can you walk me
through how you connect with your kids? Yeah, so it
has been next month would be a year since I've
been doing care packages. Oh, that's so nice. It has
been amazing to get out and to be of service
(10:25):
to others. You know, this idea came about because when
we're in the school building, I usually have all these things.
Students coming hang around in my classroom during lunchtime, they
come to after school programming and things like that. And
you know, food is an essential food, drink, shelter, clothing,
those necessary needs have to be met in order for
us to kind of tap into the academics and everything
(10:46):
else becomes secondary. So when we're thinking about the care packages,
and you know, actually have a few. Um, so this
is one. Oh that's big. That's like a big container
filled with all kinds of goodies. I see, Well, you
tell me what's in it. So, um, here like some
hand wipes, we have, um, Colgate two brush and toothpaste. Um,
(11:08):
we have some dove soap for our students. We have
some protective gear, some masks and some hand sanitizing wipes.
We have socks, we have washcloths, we have towels and deodorant.
So it's tons of tons of things that we that
I've been doing to support our students. And in addition
(11:29):
to that, I have been doing what I call the
green bag. Is this green bag bag? Yes? And and
students were saying things like I couldn't come to school
today because I didn't have clean clothes, and I said,
there must be something I can do. So we have um,
got clothes, washing detergent, um, you know, a whole setup
(11:52):
of just things to support them. Well, I love that.
Is there a teacher as you look back on your
own experience at a kid, maybe at the academy yourself,
that you still remember who inspired you to become the
teacher you are today? Hands down, my seventh grade teacher,
Christopher MDN. And he is currently a professor at Columbia University.
(12:14):
And he is truly in a mentor inspired me day
in and day out with his work constantly, you know,
following his work on social media, touching base with him,
and he's just truly has been that model for me. Well,
I bet there are going to be a lot of
young men and women in a few years who look
back and say that you did the same for them. Jamal,
(12:37):
do you have a specific conversation or experience that you've
had this past year that really lets you know that
the work you're doing is making a difference. Sure, So,
I think weren't very recent particular experiences. Just last week
I was out delivering care packages and that same even
(12:57):
in uh student contact, you know, through text message, and
said to me homes like, how did you know that
I needed socks? And I was like, you know, I
didn't know that you needed socks, but it was a
part of the care package, and you know, he said, wow,
like it's almost as if you were in my home
because these are the items that I need it. And
(13:20):
I said, you know, please reach out to me and
let me know what else you need. I received a
surplus of things at home, and this is why I'm
doing this, to make sure that you all have the
items that you need. So I think that kind of
stuck with me because you just kind of never know
and our students, and at least I know my students
for example, not all of them are going to say, like,
(13:42):
you know, I need this, but if you give them something,
they'll find use of it. So it's also like this
trust and it's like homes, I know you got me
beyond the classroom. You know, this really reminds me of
how important acts of kindness are because that's really what
you're doing, and you're modeling Jamal that you never know
(14:03):
what somebody needs and trying to provide help for them
without embarrassing them because you're giving them something that they
need but didn't even know to ask for. It comes
out of your love and your kindness and your understanding
of what your students are dealing with on a daily basis.
Is there anything you want to add as we are
(14:24):
hopefully coming out of this pandemic, but things that you
hope that people don't forget going forward. So I think
that throughout the pandemic, because many of our students started
learning at home, more families started to become more engage
and be a part of their child's education. And oftentimes
you see where it's just like, Nope, that's the school.
(14:46):
You guys are the professionals. You guys do this. But
as we think about this pandemic. We really needed it
to be all hands on deck. So I just want
to just kind of thank all of our parents, all
of our teachers for collaborating, and our school administrators and
everyone for just coming together to do the best, and
you know, putting out children first and making sure that
(15:07):
they have the supports to kind of navigate through this
difficult time. You know you've made your passion, your purpose,
your love of teaching, Your conviction about the possibilities ahead
for your your students and what you can contribute to
make them everything they can be to live up to
their own God given potential is so inspiring to me.
(15:30):
And I really appreciate your taking the time to talk
with me and say a lot of your students the
next time you are online with them from me, thank you.
I so well. If you'd like to support teachers like
Jamal Holmes in providing students with the resources they need
(15:51):
to learn and thrive, visit the donors Choose website. Jamal
posts all of his projects there and you can pitch
in at donors Choose dot org slash classroom slash Mr
dash Jay Holmes. That's h O l M E S.
(16:15):
My next guest is Emily Auster. Emily is an economics
professor at Brown University, and she's also the best selling
author of several parenting books, Expecting Better, Crib Sheet, and
The Family Firm, which comes out this August. You know,
a lot of what we historically have thought about how
(16:36):
to raise kids, how to be a good parent, has
been anecdotal. We pass it on from friend to friend,
generation of generation. But Emily Auster has really dug into
the data and evidence about what works. She has been
a valuable voice during COVID helping parents make sense of
conflicting and confusing information to make the best decisions for
(17:00):
themselves and their kids. But I began my conversation with
Emily with a question about her own childhood. You know,
it's been fascinating to read about and follow your career,
and before we dive into parenthood, i'd love to hear
more about something you mentioned in an interview with The
(17:21):
New Yorker in apparently you were less than two years
old when you would talk to yourself a lot, and
in fact, your parents had a developmental psychologist record and
then publish a book analyzing your monologues. Now, do you
have any memory of that or in retrospect, can you
(17:42):
tell us what you were saying or you were thinking. Yeah,
so I remember when the book came out because I
was like nine or ten, but I of course do
not remember the recording, and I have read it or
I've tried to read it. Most of what I'm saying
is quite boring. Um. And so you know, I've seen
people write about like my Child's Poet. I'm just like
listing stuff that happened. I'm just like, today we did this.
(18:04):
Tomorrow we're gonna do this, We're gonna go to childboard,
we're gonna buy diapers, we're gonna pick up Like that's
my whole narrative. It's just stuff that's going to happen
tomorrow and what happened today. You have two children yourself
now right, You have a daughter named Penelope and Finn,
a son, yes nine and five, And you know your
books became really Phenomenon's Expecting Better Crib Sheet and The
(18:29):
Family Firm, which is coming out in August. And you're
so good at breaking down the research because there's so
much information out there. There's so much stuff flooding into
our heads about everything, and you know, parenting is our
biggest and most important lifelong responsibility, and how do you
make sense of it all? And how did you get
(18:50):
interested in helping other parents to wade through the complexity. Yeah,
so for me, that's really started with my own pregnancy.
And so I got pregnant with Penelope, and you know,
I was an economist, I was a professor. I was
doing my professor things. But you know, like many of us,
sort of when you get pregnant, it kind of it's
not that it takes over, like you can't do other things,
(19:11):
but it's very like particular first pregnance is very occupying,
and there were a lot of questions that I had
about what I could do and what I couldn't do,
and what was the right set of choices to make.
And I basically felt like I couldn't get the answers
that I wanted, or that the books and even my
doctors were not always kind of explaining to the extent
(19:33):
that I wanted things explained. And I kind of found
myself using a lot of what I was doing in
my job, where I was looking into research and evaluating
research and thinking about the quality of research and using
that data to structure my questions. I found I was
basically doing that in my pregnancy, and you know, having
these interactions with my husband, who claims that he's the
(19:56):
villain in the book, which is not how I see it, um,
but you know, have in these interactions where I would
say like, I think we should do this, here's the research,
and then he would say like, oh, well what about
this other you know, what about this piece of evidence?
You know? And so I kind of started doing this,
and then I was explaining to people and some those
people be like, oh, I would want to know that,
and then that's sort of ultimately led into the book,
(20:16):
and then that's kind of led into this whole other
life that I never sure this residency is some extap
with you also, like a sort of version of this life.
I did not think I would have, well, you know,
the so called rules for pregnancy that people have been told,
you know, no caffeine at all ever when you're pregnant,
(20:37):
and natural births are best and and breastfeed for this
many months and absolutely no alcohol. You really dove into that.
I mean a lot of people didn't have the capacity
in the background to be able to do what you did.
And what did you find? So, I mean, I think
that there are sort of little pieces of what I found,
and then there are are big pieces. I think, you know,
(20:58):
one kind of overarching theme and a lot of this
stuff is many of these things that we're told as
sort of prohibitions or you must do this, or you
must not do this, the evidence is more nuanced, So
you know, breastfeeding is a good example where the sort
of very long term breastfeeding is gonna make your kids
smarter and thinner and better and more like a superhero.
You know, that's not really supported in the best data.
(21:21):
And you know, in the books, I spend a lot
of time trying to help people understand where correlation and
causality are different, and how hard it is to learn
from data that compare women who do different things because
they tend to be different in other ways. And I think,
you know, in the end, a lot of the conclusions
and pregnancy are like it's okay to have a little
bit of coffee, you know, depending on your risk tolerance,
(21:41):
there may be a case for occasionally having a glass
of wine also, and sort of going through some of
those pieces of data, but I think the big picture
message in all of the books is that you know,
these are choices you need to think carefully about for yourself,
and that in most cases there are some small risks
and maybe some small benefits, and that you know, mental preferences,
maternal preferences are actually going to play a pretty important
(22:04):
role in making those choices. And there's a sort of
like autonomy aspect of the message. I remember when I
was pregnant, and then of course when Chelsea was born,
and so my mother would say things like, I don't know,
I was knocked out for your birth and your your brothers.
I don't remember anything. So you guys turned out okay.
(22:25):
And then of course when Chelsea had her first child,
I'm in there saying, well, I don't know, I didn't
do that. That's worked out okay for you. I didn't
breastfeed for a year. I breastfed for four months, and
seems like you're okay. So it is an important way
of trying to relieve some of the anxiety to say, okay,
(22:46):
there's a broad range of decisions that are going to
be okay if you are, you know, making intentional, well
informed choices. Yeah, And I think that you know, this
sort of modern experience of parenting is this kind of
like I want to do it right, and this is like,
I'm going to achieve this in the best way possible.
And I think that that has led us in some
(23:08):
cases to really put a lot of pressure on ourselves
but also on other people, like, well, you didn't do
it the way I did it, and so your way
must be wrong. And I think, you know, dialing that
down and saying like, hey, there's the best way for you,
in the best way for me, and they may not
actually be the same, is a way into a little
bit of maybe a little bit less judgment, you know,
of other people, but also to some extentpt for of ourselves.
So I have to ask you, have you followed your
(23:29):
own advice with your two kids and are they different?
Were that? Was it different parenting Penelope versus FIV? Yeah,
so I think, like, you know, I wrote the first
book when I was spreading with Penelope, and there's a
long gap between the first two books and the sort
of second one is really I sort of tell people
I had to have the second kid to write the
second book about parenting, because you know, with your first kid,
(23:51):
every like if I wrote a book based on early
parenting of the first kid, it would be like fifty
pages long, and it would contain every neurosis you know.
I I once like it's spent a lot of time
trying to figure out if she should wear mittens, because
like my mom told me that if they wear mittens,
they won't use their hands. And I was like, what
is that? You know? And that's the second kid, You're
(24:12):
like a mittens who can like And so I think
that my that with Finn, I just I had a
much better sense of what to expect, and so it
was much easier to focus in on the sets of
decisions that were most important right One area that I
certainly resonated with in your academic work is on a
policy level, how the United States could get our infant
(24:35):
mortality right down. That's a issue I've worked on for
a really long time, and you point out some of
the obvious things that should be done, which is, you know,
to make sure we do everything we can to prevent
preterm births, to make sure people women have access to
healthcare from the very beginning, which is one of the
reasons why I was a huge proponent of the Affordable
(24:58):
Care Act and the expansion to Medicaid, because it's hard
to get prenatal care if you can't afford to go
to the doctor, and then looking at the traumas that
happen in labor delivery and postnatal care and therefore mortality
in poor communities, because it's just outrageous that in our country,
(25:20):
African American women have an infant mortality and a maternal
mortality rate that is so much higher, not just than
white women in the United States, but in some parts
of our country, like Texas, certain parts of Texas. It
puts them in kind of third world categories. So I
really appreciate the way you took that issue in particular
(25:41):
and expanded your focus. Yeah, and I think, you know,
there we write about that and think about it more broadly.
I think that for me, a huge thing that comes
out is the need to support women even once they're
at home, and so that this piece is really missing,
particularly in you know, among women of call and particularly
in lower income communities in the US, that you know,
(26:03):
we kind of maybe we support them well in the hospital,
but then they're sort of sent home in the social
support kind of crumbles in a way that that it
simply does not in many European countries. And I think,
you know, what we were trying to push a little
bit there is is to really make sure that we
think about the policy solutions. How can we make sure
that people are supported three weeks, in four weeks in
(26:24):
when you know right now there's no paid family leave.
I know this is something we are likely aligned on
that having you know better, you know better paid family
leave in a national sense is really important. It's important
for moms, important for baby, is important for our families.
We know what works. We just have refused, willfully refused
over many years, even with the convincing evidence about how
(26:47):
these investments early pay off in terms of health and
social consequences that can be avoided or at least blunted.
And that brings me to COVID because here we are
amidst of a pandemic, and I think that the effects
of both loss of learning and then social isolation and
(27:09):
some of the mental health issues that are beginning to
be observed and reported, you know, really raise some big
red flags. So what do you think are good ways
for kids to stay engaged uh and connected and hopeful
about their futures? And do you have any advice about
(27:30):
how to make you know, virtual learning more engaging for
kids who find it isolating. The second piece is very
hard because I think for a lot of kids are
not even logging on, so it's like sort of put
aside making it better, like you got to get them
on the computer. Um. So, you know, I do think
that there's a space for trying to improve our our
(27:53):
ability to kind of find the kids for whom this
is really not working and try to scaffold a little bit,
whether that's smaller group meetings in schools, which some districts
have done. Um, basically try to get some kids out
of the house, even though that's really hard. What some
schools have done, even if they're not open in person,
is said, you know, we're going to organize some outdoor,
(28:13):
socially distanced meetups so kids can see other kids. Because
I think, you know, if you have little kids, you
kind of realize, like at three o'clock, even if you
have the best you know, synchronous and my kids go
to a great school and occasionally there are distance learning days,
and you know, even with the school trying really hard
and being on the you know, having them on synchronous
zoom all day, they need to go outside and see
(28:34):
other people. At the end of the day, and I
think we could do more to try to help facilitate that.
There are ways to do that safely. You know, kids
outdoor to playground in a mask, that's a really low
risk environment. Um and I think, you know, schools and
districts and parents to some extent could be working to
try and make that possible. I love the idea of
(28:55):
trying to get school districts and and maybe partner civic
organization and not for profits to think about what could
be done to get more kids outside and get them active. Finally,
I wanted to ask you about rethinking parenthood post COVID.
You know, I think a lot of people are reevaluating
so much in their lives right now, and what are
(29:18):
the roles that schools should play in communities and how
do we raise happy and healthy, productive kids. Do you
have any thoughts about what you'd like to see in
terms of changes once we finally come out of this
pandemic that would better support parents, educators, and kids. Yeah.
(29:38):
I mean, I think in some ways this experience of
virtual school has really highlighted how important school is and
the sort of pieces that school is is important for.
And I think that we have at least in some
ways sort of push so much in the direction of
school being about test scores and achieving things in testing
and how much math do we do and what are
(29:59):
we do earlier? And are you reading at the end
of kindergarten and in kindergarten and younger kids especially like
the kind of academic push in that space, and I
wonder whether there will be a little bit of a
pull back to say, you know, one of the things
we've realized is that like a lot of the things
that are really important about school are the sort of
like emotional development of kids, and they need to learn
(30:22):
how to interact with other people, and that that's actually
really important for being a productive member of society. So
I kind of do wonder whether we'll see more of
a push in schools almost teaching that stuff, sort of
trying to push that as a piece of a curriculum
that is kind of on par with, you know, math.
I really agree with you, because I think a lot
(30:45):
of the different styles of learning and teaching have been
compressed into a very narrow band about what teaching and
academic success should look like. But Emily Austir, I cannot
thank you enough for talking with me today. I literally
could talk to you all day. This was amazing. Thank
you so much, Secretary for insights on parenting and pandemic safety.
(31:15):
You can subscribe to Emily's newsletter. It's called parent Data.
Just go to her website Emily Aster. That's O. S T.
E r dot net to subscribe. The first thing you
should know about Mike Barbiglia, which will become abundantly clear shortly,
(31:38):
is that he is very funny. The second thing to
know about Mike is that he is unflinching, lee honest.
Both of these traits are on full display in his
most recent book, The New One, which chronicles his bumpy
journey from knowing he should never have kids to becoming
(31:58):
a devoted dad. Mike is a comedian, actor, writer, and
director known for his hilarious one man shows on and
off Broadway. That's actually how The New One originated on stage.
He and his wife Jen have one daughter, Una, and
when Mike and I spoke, Una was five and three
(32:20):
quarters years old, but who's counting. I am so happy
to welcome you to this show. Mike. You've spent a
lot of time on stage and in your books talking
about parenting, especially in the New One, which was published
last year. I thought it was painfully and disarmingly honest
(32:42):
because you talk about not only becoming a father, which
was quite a journey for you, but feeling like a father,
sort of growing into the role. And here you are
the father of a five and three quarter year old daughter.
Thanks for being specific. The book is very By the way,
that's my cat, Massie, who really enjoys just being in
(33:06):
the mix. I attempted to not include Massie, but Massi
is uh she she follows politics, my kind of cat,
absolutely so. Um, what I would say about the book,
the book is a is called The New One, and
it's a it's sort of a triple or quadruple on
chandre of like the new baby in the new life
(33:29):
and the new consciousness and all of these new feelings
one might have when one has a child. And when
I say one, I'm very specific because what I learned
after doing comedy for twenty years and talking about murder
and awful, you know, horrible things in my comedy, is
(33:51):
that nothing is as controversial as parenting. You got it
close to the bone. Oh my gosh. I had no
idea because here I am writing this book about my
experience of like not being sure about bringing a child
into this world, and the earth is sinking into the ocean,
(34:11):
and and people are terrible often, And then you get
some people read the book and they go, well, this
is not a guide for parenting, and I go, right,
this is a this is a humorous memoir about my
specific experience of going through this. And a majority of
(34:33):
the time, you know I did. I did a version
of this story on Broadway for a hundred performances in
two eighteen and uh nineteen and released the book, and
a majority of the response I get is positive in
the sense that people feel a Catharsis from when you
open up and tell them these things that you're uncomfortable
even saying yourself we're putting down on the page or
(34:54):
saying on stage. A majority of the time you find
that people, I would say, actually tips towards more. Mothers
approached me and say I didn't connect with my daughter
or son until they were a year old, and I
didn't know what was what I was gonna do. And
you realize when you you open up and tell stories
just how common that fear is. Right, you helped so
(35:18):
many people. I think I feel that they weren't alone,
that they didn't need to be feeling guilty or even
ashamed of their own feelings. But you know the other
thing I wanted to mention. You've written about it, You've
talked about it. I mean, you were an anxious child.
You you had cancer when you were younger, you had
you know, sleep disorders, one which resulted in you're literally
(35:41):
walking into a glass wall in a hotel and and
and badly injuring yourself. I mean, you had a lot
of reason to wonder. You were being very self reflective.
I think, Mike, Yeah, I think the chapter where I
referenced all of my maladies is called my Body as
a Lemon Enough, that's really how I feel. I really
(36:04):
feel that way sometimes. I've got rem sleep behavior disorder,
I had cancer, i had Type two diabetes. I mean,
I'm just like a walking pre existing condition. And I
was like, I don't we don't need more of these,
We don't need to more bring more of these in
the world. This is this model, but indeed we do.
That's what's so striking about the book is how it
(36:26):
shows we need all kinds of folks. And and there's
another brutally honest moment in the book when you get
the flu and you were touring, and you know, you
drag yourself home and literally you're just dying on the
couch and your wife says you're not helping enough around
the house. And then you think, and I this really
(36:49):
caught me when I read it, I get why Dad's leave.
And it wasn't an endorsement of dad's leaving. And it's
not it's not a laugh line. It's not a laugh line.
It was a painful, you know, revelation actually, because people
are overwhelmed by the pressure of their own lives, especially
you know, right now, and you're giving voice to that. Yeah,
(37:13):
you know. I'll tell you an interesting like anecdote about
mounting the show originally off Broadway and then bringing to Broadways.
When it was off Broadway, there was a review that
was really positive about the show and really negative about
that moment where I think, I get why dads leave,
and it clearly like triggered something in this person where
(37:34):
they said, you know, I think they said something in
the reviewed it to the effect of I don't get
white dad's leave. I get why why women get divorced,
you know, And I was like, oh, okay, Well, that's
yours and this is that's your story. This is my story,
and it's a thought. And as I make clear in
the in the book and the show, I'm not leaving.
I'm in. I'm all in. Uh. But what we did
(37:56):
when we moved the show to Broadway is we we
really meditated on what is it that is triggering these
people to be upset about this line? And so I
came up one day with this idea of saying, I
have this thought, and I can't believe my own thought.
I get why Dad's leave, And that way the audience
(38:18):
knows going into the line that I don't approve of
my own actions and behavior in that moment. And it
was that priming that allowed I would say, like a
majority of the audience to be on board for this
really dark thought that a lot of people have, and
a lot of people have come up and said to me,
thanks for saying that. I've had people literally in tears
(38:41):
at the stage. You're saying, this is the first time
I understood like why my parents left, and and it's
devastating to hear, but it's also you go like, well,
it's worth what I'm doing, which is confessional comedy. It's
worth it for that. We'll be right back. You know,
(39:10):
my mother was basically abandoned by her parents, and honest
to goodness, Mike, I think she thought about that every
day of her life until she died at ninety two.
So abandonment, it's about one of the worst things anybody
can experience. But that doesn't mean a lot of people
don't think about it. And actually thinking about it, in
(39:31):
my view anyway, helps you say, wait a minute, I
wouldn't want to leave. How could I not live with? You? Know,
Jan and Una you're One of the other descriptions you
use in the book is that you said you often
felt like the family intern, the pudgy I think I
think I said that, and the pudgy, milkless vice president
(39:53):
of the family. You describe something that a lot of
fathers feel, where you say, look, everything I can do,
Jen can do better your wife Jen. And a lot
of fathers feel that way. I mean, when confronted with
this little, tiny, helpless infant. I think most fathers sort
of stand there and stare like, Okay, you know, when
can you be old enough to you know, ride a
(40:14):
bike or throw a ball? Yeah, that's actually been one
of the things in COVID I've been able to do
with my daughter, which is if we go out and
play soccer, and we go in nature walks, and we
went snow tubing a few weeks ago. I mean, the
joke of the book is that, you know, you hear
all these cliches about children, it's the most joy I'll
(40:38):
ever experience from other parents, you know, I call them zombies,
you know, because they're just like, it's the most joy,
it's the most joy. And you're like, all right, you know,
let me let me figure this out myself. And then
and then in the book, you know, spoiler alert at
the end, you know, I say, you know, it's the
most joy. I'm I'm seeing the world through baby's eyes,
(40:58):
which which is a cliche that people also say that
you'll see the world through baby's eyes, and you do,
you know, and at a certain point if if you're lucky,
but it's not. The key thing that I learned is
you don't all do it at the same time. It
is the hardest balancing aft, trying to get the balance right,
(41:20):
your balance, your you know, the mom's balance, the balance
between the two of you, and then all of a sudden,
this little person who was pretty a neert for a while,
starts having opinions, starts expressing them. Right, you know, what
to eat and what to wear and what she wants
to do. And so now the balance is is like tripartheid,
(41:41):
it's the three of you. Well that was my Yeah,
that was part of the thing. I grew up with
an older brother and two older sisters, and my my
oldest sisters eleven years older than me. And so when
I was like when I was in his age, my
sister Gina was like sixteen and like, and my other
sister was probably thirteen, and like, I mean, I remember
(42:02):
these fights that were like they were raw. I mean
it was like world wrestling around our house. You couldn't
even believe. I remember a fight where it's like where
my mom was so mad. I never told us on
stage or anything, but like, my mom was so mad
that that that my sisters hadn't cleaned their shared room,
(42:24):
that she took all of their clothes and through it.
I'm not I'm not making this up. I'm not exaggerating.
Through it in the sewer across the street, throw it
in the sewer, and and and so I was this
little assistant to my sister's Gina and Patty, and so
they had me running interference and carrying the clothes from
(42:48):
the sewer back into their room. I was the intern then.
Also it was this thing where it was like, oh
my gosh. I remember hearing my sisters say to my mom,
I hate you, and I remember thinking, well, that that's
a bad deal. You know, that's a that's a Ponzi scheme.
(43:10):
You know. You put all your time and energy into
this person or these people, these kids, and at certain point,
no matter what you do, they're gonna say some variation
on I hate you, I don't appreciate you. Yeah. Well,
and that's a write of passage. Hopefully you get through,
but it's painful when it happens to you. And now
that you've got a few years of actual parenting under
(43:34):
your belt, would you say you were worried about the
right things. Uh. There's a moment in the book where
where I asked my brother Joe for advice about having
a child, and he says, it's relentless. And I think
(43:54):
that that has proven to be very true. It doesn't stop.
And so in that and parenting is so much more
involved than I could have ever imagined. And also it's
with your your body and your mind, but it's with
your heart too, and so it's it's always sort of
pulling out your heartstrings in this way that I had
(44:14):
never experienced before. So in that sense, it's harder, um.
But then conversely, it's more rewarding than you could imagine.
You know. I have friends who say, like, how would
you describe it now that you have a child who's five.
I say, it's like, it's like your aperture opening at
a certain point if if you're lucky, I mean not
(44:36):
everybody is the same, but your aperture opening and you go,
oh my goodness. I can see that, and I can
see that, and I can feel that emotion. So that's
been my experience. I only have one piece of advice.
The book is all about whenever people think like, this
is a bad guy for parenting, I'm like, yes, absolutely right,
it's a terrible guys. I'm i'm, I'm, I'm telling you
(44:58):
all the ways to do it wrong so that you
can do it right. Um. But I think that if
there is one lesson from the book, if you buy
into the book, is about candor and about I believe
that being honest with your children is one of the
best things that you can give to them, because I
think that being honest with people who you care about
(45:19):
is our best chance at becoming closer to the people
we love. Oh wow, that's a wonderful note to end on, Mike.
That's so beautiful. You know, when you're on stage again,
when we're all vaccinated and you can be in front
of a live audience, if you say that, you're going
to hear this. Oh, come up women in the audience,
(45:42):
because that is so touching. This has been a real joy.
Thank you, Mike. Mike's latest book is called The New One,
and you can hear him on his podcast Mike le
As working it out. Well, there's so much that I
(46:06):
hope happens for our kids. Our parents, are caregivers, are
educators coming out of this pandemic. I hope that we've
learned some lessons about how we can support each other
and what works for different kids and what works for us,
the adults who are trying to make sense of it all.
I'm really glad that there's going to be help coming
(46:27):
from the federal government for families and for schools and
for child care centers and for lots of places that
families need in this difficult time. I'm hoping businesses get
back up and going as fast as possible so parents
get their jobs back, they get to know that they're
going to be able to provide for their families. And
(46:50):
I hope that we also keep supporting each other, not
just online, as important as that is, but in person,
finding ways to reach out and make sure that everybody
is doing as well as we can under the circumstances.
I for one, can't wait for summer when you know
most of the adults in our country will be vaccinated
(47:13):
and we can get outside with our kids and with
each other and you know, try to remember what that
was like. But until then, you know, take care of
yourself and keep getting vaccinated and make sure everybody you
know gets vaccinated. To you and me, both is brought
to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran,
(47:38):
Kathleen Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help from Juma Aberdeen,
nicki etur Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill,
Rob Russo and Lona Valmro. Our engineer is Zack McNeice
and the original music is by Forrest Gray. If you
(48:00):
like you and me both, spread the word, post about
it on social media, send it to your friends, and
make sure to hit the subscribe button so you're the
first to know when a new episode drops. You can
do that on I Heart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. See you next week.
Host
Hillary Clinton
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