December 8, 2020 • 45 mins
In this year of healing, OOD chats about the pervasive effects of colorism in the world and share their own experiences with the issue.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to You Down, a production of Shonda Land Audio
and partnership with I Heart Radio. I get if you
have a type, but what is it rooted in and
what do you mean you don't date an entire race
that's the same race as you and I know we're
it's stemming from That's why it's problematic, not because they
can date a white girl. I could care less what
you dating. Most of the time, I don't want to
date show us anyway. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to
(00:28):
you Down. A podcast wherefore hilarious honeys come together and
talk about what's popping in the culture. I'm Saepe, I'm
Mommy a Oh, I'm Ashley Holston, and I'm Yasma Money Watkin.
But collectively we are known as Obama's other Daughters. And
(00:54):
today we're asking you down with colorism. Seaweed from hair
Spray said, the black of the berry, the sweet of
the juice. But it is no secret that in most
cultures around the world there's an unspoken negative bias towards
those in the community who are darker and have less
(01:15):
European features. Today we're discussing what colorism is, how we've
seen it in our lives and our thoughts on how
to deal with it. But first a group check in. Alright, guys,
what are you loving and what are you hating this week?
M Well, I have a huge hate. Um, we love them.
(01:37):
I have a huge hate. I hate yellow jacket wasp.
I never knew what they were until recently. I have
been attacked assaulted. Uh No, I was mentally and physically
in pain when it happened yesterday, out on my jog,
just minding my business, and then these yellow jacket wasp
(01:58):
decided to sting me. Uh the things staying and bite
that's what they do. They bite thee They bite you.
I didn't even know they had teeth. Yes, they got
teeth and they use them all right, terrifying to think
about insects from flying around with teeth in the amount bite.
(02:18):
But they bite you to get a better grip so
they can pull the stinger closer and get it in deeper.
And they did not lose their stinger after they sting you.
Did you do a whole research paper? I did after
I was literally jogging and then suddenly I got bit
or stung and I didn't know what was going on,
and I started freaking out. And I'm screaming in the
middle of this path, this trail by myself, and then
(02:39):
I started sprinting because they kept coming. How many were
after your cure? I think I'm got stung about five times.
And I say this all cute. But if I show
y'all how my butt look right now, y'all gonna be
like dad. But yeah, it looks I tried to get
an ass shot that didn't quite work out. It's terrible.
(03:03):
So that's what I hate, yellow understandable. I have a
love this week. It's been raining a bunch here in Virginia,
so we've been stuck inside a lot and I finally
got out and I rode my bike, and guys, I'm
just loving like the sound of my tires against the rain,
(03:23):
the green greenery of Virginia so much. I just feel
like the neighborhoods are beautiful. So I guess like bike
rides in beautiful areas is what I'm loving this week.
I feel like I just read the first chapter of
a Scholaskis book, right, like an of Green Gables or
some ship, Like you're going to selve a mystery in
the next couple of yes, like you had a picnic
(03:45):
basket on top of your bike. I'm just did you
really know I'm there? Definitely is this air in suburbia
that's the very like refreshing after being in a tin
everywhere city all the time. It's very nice. Um well,
(04:09):
you know, speaking of green, green's greenery my love. This week,
my mom taught me how to make collared greens. Is
so crazy color green. No, but it was a really
big deal. As you guys know, I'm not a chef
(04:30):
by any means. It's a struggle. And this week there
was like an organization that gave us bags of produce
and I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna
do with this, but I cooked them, and my mom
like walked me through the whole process on FaceTime and
we were just bonding. And yeah, it was a really
cool moment, especially because she's like she cook cooks, and
(04:51):
then you know, I eat eat. Uh, everybody has a job.
She in it for a new one. I think that's great. Yes,
I heard they taste good too. They were bomb. I
was like, oh, let me find out you could cook. Yes,
like I was, I can see you taking your first
(05:12):
bite and literally doing it like you other people that.
So that's my love this week. I love that. My
love this week is I'm home in Minnesota and I
just really cherish pictures. Like I've been going through old
(05:33):
photos because pictures, you know, pictures speak a thousand words
or whatever Mark says. Um, but like is that homework
or company exactly? But like you really do see emotion
and like moments and photographs from times that we don't remember,
like when we were babies or like toddlers. So that's
(05:56):
really cool. And I found the camera my parents used
to take pictures of us as a kid, which is
like a Vivitar three hundred and so I'm gonna bring
it back to l A. But um, anyway, I'm ready
to get into our main topic this week. Yeah. So
in three Alice Walker coined the word colorism in her
(06:18):
book In Search of Our Mother's Gardens. Woman is pros
saying colorism is prejudicial or preferential treatment of same race
people based solely on their color. Walker put meaning to
an issue that permeates most cultures in the world. In
African American oral history, the brown paper bag test was
a form of racial discrimination practiced within the African American
(06:40):
community in social groups in the twentieth century by comparing
an individual's skin tone to the color of a brown
paper bag. We see this all over the world in
Asian and African cultures, the idea that skin color and
features that are closer and representative of whiteness are more
favorable than others. So today we're discussing our thoughts on colorism,
(07:04):
the brown paperbag test, and how we can work to
dispel this division that still lingers in our community. But first,
let's take a little break. Welcome back. Let's get into
(07:27):
the main conversation this week. When did you all first
realize colorism existed? Oh? I know for me, one of
those moments came. We were all like, I had sent
an emoji to the group chat and for years I've
been using the second to last darker emoji, thinking that
(07:51):
was my skin color. And then you guys were like, yes, man,
that's not your skin tone. You'd use the wrong emoji.
And I was like what You're like, yeah, your light skinned,
And I was like what It blew my mind. I
feel like that is remarkable that that you didn't know
(08:14):
that you would be considered light skin. Yeah, that will
just to clarify for the audience out there. That was
last year. This introduction to colorism hit yasmin. But yeah,
I think when we had that conversation, I remember being
on the balcony with your husband and being like, wait, huh.
(08:38):
It was just so baffling. But then in doing some
more research, realized that there are plenty of light skinned
people who didn't realize that they fell under that category.
That's just usually not what we see. I think my
first realization of colorism was I think Kara has a
(09:01):
similar story. I went to vacation for a summer and
I came back very much darker than I typically am,
and this boy that I liked was like, damn, I
didn't even notice you. I didn't even recognize you. You
you got black. And it was the first time I
realized that being darker there was a stigma to it,
(09:23):
or like that I had a privilege of not living
that way typically. Yeah, I do have a similar story
where I went on vacation and got chocolate, chocolate, chocolate,
and that happened about that happened every summer, just about
um for a few years. But I feel like when
I was younger, my mom told me a story about
(09:44):
my grandmother who was a very dark skinned woman, and
her mom being not kind to her because of that,
And I remember it always sticking with me because I
was like, but granny is so beautiful, Like I feel
like my grandmother is genuinely just gorgeous. And I remember
being like, oh, but she's dark skinned, so the world
feels a way about that. I don't remember there being
(10:07):
a time where I wasn't somewhat aware of colorism, just
because I grew up in a pretty black community and
I always fit in the middle, and I always had
a level of like, well, i'm brown, I'm not dark,
I'm not light. But like A knew light skinned girls
had light skinned privilege, or at least that's what I
saw in my community, and I knew dark skin girls
(10:28):
had not not the same privilege. Like I knew that
there was a stigma around it. Yeah, there's definitely like
dudes like light skinned girl, yep. Yeah. Even had a
girl tell me one time it was her and his
dark skinned girl that both like the same guy, and
the guy picked the dark skinned girl and she was like,
but I'm light skinned, like literally said that. Yeah, and
(10:50):
you're delusional too, but that's hilarious. Kind of my me
of my first instance of really being hit over the
head with the concept of colorism. Because growing up in Minnesota,
I was just black. I knew that my skin was
black and everyone else's was white. And so when I
(11:13):
went to college in the South at Spellman, which is
a historically black college, I had heard that that was
kind of a thing, but I was like, well, it's
not going to affect me. And I did a pageant
like at HBCUs. Actually I'm sure you remember this, but um,
they have so many different pageants like Miss Dental Club, Mr.
(11:35):
Science Bowl, like everything has a court and a royal
queen and blah blah blah for homecoming, which is the
biggest deal at the school. Um, so my brother dorm
was doing their dorm queen and I was like best
friends with all the guys, Like there's still a lot
of like my best guy friends to this day. And
(11:55):
my best friend's fiance had to break it to me
that I wasn't going to be on the court and
tried to argue for me, but they ultimately chose three
women who were light skinned and it wasn't like those
their resumes couldn't touch mine. So like I was going
into it thinking like I'm a leader and these things
speak for myself, and my beauty speaks for itself. But
(12:16):
I didn't know I was about to be entering a
world that had so many layers of bias in terms
of skin color and women specifically. Did you guys talk
about color in your families? Oh? Yes, I don't want
to dominate this conversation, especially recognizing, Um, I know what
(12:41):
I think. The fact that you have light skin privilege,
but you acknowledge that is a huge deal because some
people don't acknowledge it or like don't even want to
have this conversation. Um so um tap tap there. But
in terms of my family, it wasn't as perpetuated. But
my mom tells me a lot about growing up in
(13:02):
Ghana and she has six sisters and she's the darkest
and they always would tease her and like call her
ugly and stuff growing up. So she kind of had
some tips with that. So she really instilled in me
to be confident about just who I am as a person.
And it wasn't ever about like, you're dark, so you
have to be that. It's like you're a woman and
you're black, so you have to present yourself a certain
(13:25):
way and act a certain way. But when I was
in Ghana recently, we brought some Barbie dolls to some
of the little girls in like our family and extended family,
and one of the mothers literally like in the Dark
Girls documentary that we all watched. If you haven't watched it,
you should, it's on YouTube, Dark Girls part one, in
part two. But the mother was like, there was one
(13:47):
with an afro and there was a white blonde doll,
and she was like in TWI like, oh, I'll take
the straight hair, like I don't like that hair about
the afro, and I you, guys, I just lost it.
Maybe it's because I had come out of a breakup,
but I started bawling and I wanted to scream at her,
and just because I was like, you have no idea
(14:08):
that you bleach your skin and you do all these things,
and you're this little girl is learning that right now
in front of our eyes. It's always so sad to
see people just like not love themselves or like reject
things that look like them. My immediately family did not
really talk about color much like my brother is a
(14:28):
little more light skinned than the rest of us, but
it was always like, oh, well, Andrew looked like Uncle Frank.
But it was never like he's better than us or
we're worse than him. But my mom's mother could have
passed for white, Like she was a very very very
fair skinned woman, and my mom's chocolate than me, and
so like she grew up in in a time where
(14:52):
all at the cookout everyone was light skinned and it
was like pot the little dark kids. Um. But it
was really surprising to me and talking to her that
she doesn't have a complex about it, Like there was
something that went on her home, like her mother loving
on her, whatever it was that made it so that
she's like, yeah, I'm brown, uh, and you could consider
(15:15):
me dark, but that's not gonna inform how I moved
through the world, which is I think a little rare.
I think that's very true on the part about her
mom the way she raised her, because parents project so
much of whatever their in securities are on to their kids,
and I feel similarly, my mom didn't have a complex.
(15:36):
I'm brown skin, so I feel like especially and what
is it charmed city? Uh? I mean I have a
brown skin privilege. So it was like, yeah, I'm not
the light skinned girl that all the dudes want to date,
but I'm comfortable in this skin tone. I do remember
my brother always dating light skin girls and that being
(15:57):
something in my family where we me and my mom
would joke be like, oh, oh, what's toy she lights get?
Huh yeah, I bet you like. And I think he
went to a dance with one dark skinned girl and
he'd be like, and I was like, so one dog
skin girl, but your baby mama light ski. Every other
girl we just say a toy, you know, Tiffany, all
of them light skins, so we kept it light. But
(16:20):
also it where is the root of uh the problem?
I mean, I think it's just a conversation that I
would probably have now as a grown up with my
brother and see where he's at with that. It's so
real because I definitely know like, and I think part
of even my own perception. So my dad is regular
brown and my mom is relatively I guess light, but
(16:44):
growing up, I know I'm like, yeah, but I imagine
that I was just like regular brown's. My grandmother on
my mom's side was very light, like could pass for white.
Similar to what you were saying. Ask me about your grandma,
and she was from this out. I never really thought
twice about, like, you know, what does it mean that
(17:05):
there are generations and my family that are just I mean,
like from Shreeport, Louisiana thinking about the implications of slavery
and what that actually looks like. So I'm just when
people would be like what do you mix without always
be like just black. Thank you for sharing that, asman.
I feel like that goes to a deeper level of
when we talk about how the things that happened to
(17:26):
our ancestors are cellular and like they are still in
the air that we breathe, and it's kind of our
job to dispel and break some of those negative things
that we don't feel we need. And I think in
the I'm assuming Creole is where your family is coming
from Louisiana or some aspect of that. Am I we
(17:48):
just can never trace it, Okay. My grandma was like
her father was light, you know what I mean, Like
it was just like generations of light folks without really
much connection to why. And that I think that speaks
to how it was a survival mechanism. And we know
that the root of all of this comes from colonization
and comes from divide on the plantation and conquering. We
(18:13):
can pick the light versus a dark or whatever against
each other, then we have control because we control the
narrative then. And I it was a survival mechanism for
people back then to know if I pass, I need
to marry somebody else who passes. Because we want our
kids to have an easier life. They're not going to
have to deal with the color aspect of it as much.
(18:36):
Who what about how colorism has affected us in our
dating lives. I definitely know that my dad I can't
think of actually any dark skinned women that he would
date growing up, and he y'all want, I love my
dad so dearly. He would date so many women. I
(18:57):
was going through this photo album at his house and
it was just like woman after woman, and they just
all sort of look the same. I mean some of
them even had the same name, you know what I mean. Like,
but it's kind of crazy because in my adult life
I was going back through, like who are the women
that I've dated, especially as we're coming into this conversation,
(19:17):
and like being honest and vulnerable and like I'm not
gonna lie, y'all. I came into this conversation with a
bit of trepidation because I'm like, it's so hard to
learn in public, but also like to really confront the
way that colorism shows up in my life, and I
have dated so many light skinned women. I'm just like,
what does that mean? What are the things that I
(19:39):
need to unpack from my family and what are the
things that I've been taught that I need to unlearn?
And like, how do I decolonized desire? Right? I don't
know if this is true or not, but I don't
feel like a lot of black women colorized black men
the way black men colorized black women. Yeah, I look
at black men and usually like chocolate. My first boyfriend
(20:02):
was probably a little darker than me. And as an adult, um,
I've gone all the shades of end racist as well.
I've dated outside of my race, but I don't feel
like it's I feel like there are times where I've
maybe counting myself out, and I don't know how true
(20:22):
that is to the black men counting me out. There
are times where I have had situations with black men,
especially living in l A, where nown date black girls
like they just don't, which is very problematic because I
get if you have a type, but what is it
rooted in. And what do you mean you don't date
an entire race that's the same race as you, And
(20:45):
I know where it's stemming from. That's why it's problematic,
not because they can date a white girl. I could
care less with you dating most of the time. I
don't want to date show us anyway, So go ahead
the white girl, go ahead. But I have you mentioned
like how black men, I guess stereotype the color of
(21:05):
black women's skin more so than um vice versa. But
I have heard many a stereotype about like light skinned
dudes are soft and that dark skin do the more
aggressive they probably go and get arrested, you know, like
they still have the stigmas. Um. I suppose I was
(21:27):
trying to think about my dating history and the type
of men I've liked, and it's like Kira has been
a little all over the spectrum. I feel though that
in looking at it, I haven't been um Like, darker
dudes wouldn't give me as much play as like a
light skin do, or a white guy or a Latino
(21:49):
guy would. Um. And I feel like some of that
is like I want my kids to have good hair
or you know, black girls have attitude um or or
trying to come up like if you're round skin, you
want someone who's gonna elevate your race type thing, which
is ignorant. Um, that's not what I believe. I feel
like I've dated or you know, I've had like very
(22:12):
close guy friends who were upwardly mobile, like really killer
successful type guys who we're smart and like doing stuff
for themselves. But I always felt like those kind of
guys didn't want to date me, like they maybe want
to be my best buddy and hang out all the time,
but they didn't want to claim me as like their
(22:34):
status symbol, which is like the woman on your arm.
That whole thing. Um, it's weird. And then there are
other black men who would be attracted to me or
would be like, oh, Nubian princess, like in almost a
fetishy type way, who I feel like thought, oh, this
woman is dark and chocolate and down for the cause,
and she's gonna come in my life and take on
(22:55):
my baggage and be more of a maternal as opposed
to a goddess like they say in the documentary, like
I see you as somebody who will take care of
me as opposed to somebody who's sexy and desirable and
like deserves a certain reverence from me as a man
or a partner. And like my first boyfriend ever who
was in college, um and was a black man. It
(23:18):
was from Virginia, and he told me that if his
grandmother was alive, or maybe it was his great grandmother,
she would roll over in her grave if she saw
how dark I was. Like the young me was like, Oh,
that's but like thinking about that, that's like, oh, that's
pretty deep and might explain the demise of our relationship.
(23:41):
But it's just it goes back like we're at the
place now that we are just having these conversations about no,
we still see this problem like in hip hop and
mainstream culture everywhere. Yeah, I do think that this moment
in time is really forced all of us on a
global scale to really sit down and like, look at
(24:05):
our lives, look at what's working, look at what isn't working.
What are the generational things that we've learned and that
we need to stop. Right now, I'm thinking about hip
hop and being like a seventh or ninth grader watching
mystical you know, either one, but just seeing so many
(24:28):
light skinned women getting praised. I never wanted to be lighter.
I never wanted to be darker. But I was like, dang,
what's so great about light skinned women that everybody like
so much? And it wasn't until I was older I
was like, Oh, it's like things that are close to whiteness.
Like I wasn't able to be lighter in skin tone,
(24:48):
but I was able to be articulate and like distance
myself from darkness or blackness that way, right, And it
also in terms of speaking and how you present your health.
The other side of that is socio economic status. I
want to say that on the documentary they said that
light skinned men make more Yeah, well, and it shows
(25:13):
up and like multiple facets from the way that like
black girls are especially darker skinned black girls are criminalized
in schools, like with incarceration. There is this study at
Villanova of like a North Carolina jail, and it showed
that light skinned women received prison sentences that we're twelve
percent shorter than dark skinned women. Another aspect of that,
in terms of like activism and stuff is why do
(25:37):
white people or lighter people get to the front of
a picket line while protesting, because that's a symbol visual
symbol of how a police officer is less likely to
shoot and kill a person whose skin is lighter and
see some humanity in them instead of just beating them
like a dog because they don't see. I think I saw,
(25:58):
actually recently, um with what's happening in the world, a
woman was getting beat with paton sticks by police officers,
and I was on Twitter and somebody was like, yo,
she light skin and they still beating her as uh sorry,
I but I remember thinking like I hadn't seen police
be a light sking girl with curly hair with batons.
(26:20):
The way they beat dark skin and people who they
coined more aggressive, darker skinned black people, it makes me
think that the reality is that there is no difference
between us, and that they perpetuate differences between us. They
highlight these differences so we feel like we're paid against
each other. But in all honesty, the cops is gone.
(26:42):
If you white, you black, you you know whatever it is,
you out of line, you out of line, and like
it's it will take us all realizing like you're dark,
your curly hair, you're light whatever, all of us have
to be together. Yeah, because control like recogniz rising. I
think especially for light folks that are light skin. There
(27:04):
are things that even though we all experience racism as
black people, there are ways that I don't experience certain
things or privileges that I am afforded because I am
light skin and like being very cognizant of that and
like unpacking it and working at it constantly, right in
the same way that I'm working towards like defunding the
police and the activism and all that stuff. This too,
(27:26):
is a part of the work that I must do
and that we must do because our brothers, sisters, uh,
you know, non gender conforming in between are being treated differently,
all right, So we cannot have a conversation about colorism
and not talk about Mommy a short pageant. You know,
(27:50):
we gotta talk you stern Um. You're short. Once you wrote, directed,
and started, um, go ahead and share some of the
promise about that film and what inspired you. The concept
came from feelings that I had after I graduated from Spellman,
my beloved alma mater in Atlanta, because you guys know,
(28:10):
I grew up in Minnesota around a very white community
and then went to spell Men to kind of find
my black identity and learn about blackness in America, which
is crazy because in Minnesota, I was just black, but
when I got to Atlanta, I was dark skinned black,
and I didn't know that there was um a gradient
or you know, that colorism was as pervasive in our
(28:31):
community as it is. So it was very interesting to me,
and I would see examples and pageants and just in
social settings. So I wanted to discuss that in a
way that made people laugh but also kind of shed
a little light on the subject matter because it seems
like a kind of sweep under the rug in the community. Yeah,
most definitely. I just think it's important for us to
(28:55):
not be afraid to have the conversations within our community
that might be uncomfortable. Because in trying to get this
feature made, there have been black executives I'm looking at you,
who have told our agents like I don't want to
make a movie about colorism. And these are people who
when you list these are black movers and shakers and filmmakers,
(29:16):
their name is on that list. And I think that's
a problem to say that we were fighting for white
people to tell our stories and we don't even want.
Some of them told m I don't know if y'all
grew up with this saying like what happens in this
house stays in this house, Yeah, which is like I
think something that a lot of black people hold on too,
(29:37):
like why would we tell our business, why will we
let them know that we're fighting? Also Vegas Vegas too?
In Vegas, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. They
sold from the black people, just like they do. But
I do think that that has something to do with it,
because a lot of black folks that I've talked to
(29:58):
you have been raised with that mentality, and you know,
you don't want to give white folks to talk about
don't be looking at us sideways. Were cool over here,
but we're not. Let's talk about it. M m hmmm.
That that hit me so deep. There's so many things
that you're just not supposed to talk about, and like
it's like, why can't we talk about it? And I
(30:19):
feel like we're the generation who's like, you know what, Actually,
those are your skeletons, that's your closet. That's not my
cross to bear, or rather that it is because now
we're gonna unpack the skeleton. Well, yeah, you know, we
got to do the worth that they wouldn't do, and
I understand why you wouldn't want to because it's uncomfortable
and people argue, and you can lose family, your friends
(30:41):
because of sharing your beliefs. But it I think is
more beneficial for us to have these conversations and to
figure out how we can get away from judging each
other or some ship that we can't even we can't change,
we don't control. It, don't mean nothing. And I think
to like, sometimes people don't of the conversations because people
(31:01):
have been able to get away with like, well, that's
just my type. So people tell me that I'm racist
or I'm colorist because I like this type of woman.
And I'm like, yeah, I am telling you that, But
how do we actually and how can you change? How
can you change you after so many years? And I
don't think you have to actually start dating you know,
(31:22):
every shade to prove a point, but I do think
it can't be a problem you continue to have after
a conversation. I will say that the idea of unconscious bias,
like part of of it is like becoming aware of
the bias in order to address it and acknowledging it
that it exists, and also the fact that it happens
(31:45):
in cultures all over the world. Is mind blowing to
me because that's how powerful colonization is. Like they were
able to let everybody in the world know whiteness is better,
and don't white people are the majority. I was thinking
about our time in Thailand and how in Thailand we
(32:05):
saw all brown people. It was all and then I
looked up Thailand actors and they're all white looking, all
very fair skin. So it's like whiteness has been just
projected as a standard even though it's not attainable by
most of us. Yeah, and also like in Ghana, which
(32:27):
there are two sides of it, because in Ghana, like
as a black person, it feels like the country is
hugging you when you get there because everybody is black.
It's like going to HBCU homecoming or DC or freak Nick.
If I was no, you guys are not going to
be able to handle it because they'll be like, my queen,
(32:49):
our beauty is like what it is, like that's the standard.
But on the other side, it's one of the biggest
markets for skin bleaching cream because they're looking at us
in America being like this is what's beautiful. We're watching
rap videos of the artists we like, and these are
the girls they have in the videos. So that's what's beautiful. Um.
(33:10):
I have this video that I took at this fabric
shop and this woman because they've outlawed legally bleaching cream
and ghana, but people still sell it on the low low.
Like literally, this woman had a back door uh shop
full of every brand of bleach and type and lotion
and oil you could imagine. And I'm like, oh my god,
(33:31):
Like it's just so deep. How how it's like the
known thing. We should be lighter, we should be trying
to make our skin lighter. I think it really does
go back to that that what one of y'all said
earlier about it being a survival technique. You know, I
don't know about how it isn't in Ghana, but to
be successful in the world, it seems like you have
(33:54):
to have some relative closeness to whiteness, because whiteness is power,
Whiteness is sophistication, it's education. But that's also the TV.
What people are consistently seeing is a huge reflection of
how it got so global and how it became like
such a a known thing that whiteness is great because
(34:16):
majority of the movies where people are powerful and successful
and they're like white, it reminds me of how special
Whoopi Goldberg is. She was doing things, as you know,
stereotypically not beautiful, dark skin locks, and she was gorgeous.
(34:36):
You ever seen a young photo of Whoopie and she
was on Broadway and she was on she had moved,
you know the fact that that black woman was on Broadway.
Not only was she on Broadway, she was on Broadway
with a one woman show where she literally did like
twelve characters back to back. That's it m like, what
(34:56):
was happening in that moment? She was like Kevin Hart
in the way that these studio big movies like that
was her time and I don't know if we've seen
something similar since then. What we also have like a
defy the odds type, you know, like I'm gonna do
it my way and you don't like it watch, and
(35:18):
like a confidence about herself, which I think is something
that you know, we get a lot from the outside
world telling us who we are and how to be,
but it's really does start with ourselves and making sure
that we are saying nice things to ourselves and that
we are knowing who we are without external ship. Look
(35:39):
in the mirror, look at your skin or whatever it
is that's you down about, and look in your eyes
and tell yourself that you're beautiful. I try to do
it one time, and it's it can be difficult to
look at ope and eye and say things that you
don't necessarily believe, but I think it's important. Beauty is
literally a mindset. The way that you carry yourself in,
see yourself and feel about out yourself resonates on the outside.
(36:02):
And no, everybody's not going to think you're fine, no
matter what you look like. But if you know that
you are worthy of life, and worthy of love and
worthy of all things good, like that is the place
to get. Write yourself a love letter tonight. And actually
I did write a poem. It's called Note to Self
and you can find out the internet somewhere, but it
(36:25):
was very much that, like, let me pick myself up
and like, you know, write a love letter to myself.
And if you can't find the words to tell yourself
that you're beautiful, go ahead and reach out to us.
We'll write you a little nice letter, tell you how
fine you are beautiful. Okay, okay, you are batty, let
o d uplift you. We got your back. I feel
(36:47):
like this was definitely one of our heavier conversations. But
I love that we all got so real with our experiences.
And I really do think it's important, like what we
were saying before, like how do we end this thing?
Or like we can't ended in one day with the
what are the things that judges hit on the gavel?
Cal But we can do, you know, through our work
(37:10):
and through speaking up in certain moments, and I guess
recognizing and calling our own selves out or you know,
people close to us and having those hard conversations. Alright, yeah,
now I got my gavel. I guess colorism is over,
especially over he solved it with love and education. Beautiful.
(37:32):
Um you guys. I like to end this by saying,
my name is Ashley Holston and I'm a brown skinned woman,
and that is beautiful. Oh clap clap, um, my name
is yasmine when Watkins and I am what they tell me.
(37:53):
You can't unpack it if you can't say it. I
am a light skinned woman. Step yes, I am should
harrigan a pay and I am a brown skinned woman.
I could brown skin, brown skin you know, well, I
(38:18):
am Mammy ya a four oh, and I am a
beautiful dark black, brown skinned girl. Brown dark black is
like real black. But I'm brown. I'm saying it loud.
I'm black and I'm proud. Okay, yeah, say a lie,
but I'm black enough brown. All right. I think that
(38:44):
it's time for us to give some advice. But before
we get to that, let's take a little break. We'll
come back, y'all. It is time or a lucky listener
(39:05):
to give some advice. Okay, what do you have? All right?
Dear o d I've been dying to get this off
my chest. The other day, this down low guy he
put in parentheses, a straight guy who engages in homosexual
activities that I used to hook up with months ago,
had the audacity to ask me if him and his
(39:28):
new girl can have sex in my living room. I
almost don't even want to continue. I'm like, the answer
is no, but will continue answer? Why? Um? Apparently Sis
doesn't want to go to a hotel because of COVID.
This is craziness. And he can't bring his girl home
(39:51):
because his baby mama had to move in with him
because of COVID. This garbage, I told him I would
think about it, but I haven't replied you think about it? Okay,
I'm missing him and maybe this is him saying he
misses seeing me too. What do you think I should do?
(40:12):
Is this too toxic to engage with? Please help? Mr
wondering what to do? Mr wondering what to do? I
hope you know what to do. Why don't you invite
that drama into your home? Or are they like trying
to do it on the couch and invite you or
something like? Is that ethical? I don't know what their
(40:32):
goal is. This gave me so much joy because this
is toxic all the way around. One moment where I
was like, whoa, that sounds good. Mr wondering what to do?
You already said he had the audacity to ask. You
know that's not right. Don't nobody You don't ask an
ex Can I fuck somebody else? You live at room
(40:57):
and expect Yes, that's right, that's that person is nuts.
But and I get missing somebody and like thinking, you're
gonna see him, but he's gonna be there with the
intention to fund somebody else, So what's what's the point
and invite him into your life on that level? And
also to how comfortable do you feel with him? I mean,
(41:18):
it's not your business if he lies to this girl,
but like you know, he lied to this girl, he
just helping facilitate it. That's not okay. It's almost like
there's also like a lot of and you know, I
feel like a lot of by folks get this about
like the being down low or whatever, but like I
(41:38):
feel like life is just a lot easier when you
just embrace who you are fully. And it sounds like
this guy has a lot to unpack around shame for himself,
like that he can't be Also weird thing that he's like,
let me bring a woman to this man's right, that
I too, just rude as fuck, Like what are you crazy?
(42:03):
Like you disrespect me enough to not acknowledge that I
might have feelings for you because we hooked up before,
But you're bringing somebody else's body into my home so
you can get off and any one thing if like
you were also into women and we're like also into
his partner. Like everyone think there's an invitation to a threesome,
(42:27):
though not all by people love threesomes, um some of
us do too. Anyway, neither here nor there the point
is this sounds toxic? Man? I think you know what
to do, and I think that you just need someone
else to say it. So we're gonna say, don't let
this man. Don't do it now. You miss seeing them,
(42:47):
but you don't want to see him like that. I
guarantee you know, And you don't want to have to
scrape anything off the couch that you know where it can.
There are more healthy relationships that are out there for you.
I promise exactly. You deserve good love, the love that
sees you in the light, that sees you in the day,
that claims you unapologetically right your couch. No, that's that's
(43:20):
a no. I hope we helped two albums, the one
that what they do? You know? You know, you know
your heart knows you guys, today has been so as
Beyonce said, my heart is full? Did she say it
like a slave like that? I think that was a
slave accident. That's my go to slave. So I'm what
(43:43):
am I doing? Its full? Beyonce is real low, like
like she got something. You know, I'm Beyonce. Your boy
didn't go down it? Did I feel like say I'm Beyonce?
How about that? We are O D and we are ya.
(44:09):
Today has been awesome you guys. We've discussed what colorism is,
how it's affected our lives, how we've seen it in
our lives and in our families, and also gave I think,
some pretty awesome tools on how people can work to
dispel it in their lives. And we appreciate all of
you out there tuning in once again. We love you.
(44:32):
Remember to share and review this podcast. It helps us
and we want to know what you think, HM and
come on over to social media at Obama's Other Daughters
on Instagram at o d Improv, on Twitter and on
Facebook at Obama's Other Daughter Some people with us. We
want to get the yes be our friends and if
(44:54):
you need advice, we will answer your questions. To send
those letters over to odep podcast at gmail dot com.
We read every one of them. Do send it all right, guys,
We'll see you next week. You Down is a production
(45:15):
of Shawonda Land Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio.
For more podcast from shawdaland Audio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Welcome to You Down, a production of Shonda Land Audio
and partnership with I Heart Radio. I get if you
have a type, but what is it rooted in and
what do you mean you don't date an entire race
that's the same race as you and I know we're
it's stemming from That's why it's problematic, not because they
can date a white girl. I could care less what
you dating. Most of the time, I don't want to
date show us anyway. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to
(00:28):
you Down. A podcast wherefore hilarious honeys come together and
talk about what's popping in the culture. I'm Saepe, I'm
Mommy a Oh, I'm Ashley Holston, and I'm Yasma Money Watkin.
But collectively we are known as Obama's other Daughters. And
(00:54):
today we're asking you down with colorism. Seaweed from hair
Spray said, the black of the berry, the sweet of
the juice. But it is no secret that in most
cultures around the world there's an unspoken negative bias towards
those in the community who are darker and have less
(01:15):
European features. Today we're discussing what colorism is, how we've
seen it in our lives and our thoughts on how
to deal with it. But first a group check in. Alright, guys,
what are you loving and what are you hating this week?
M Well, I have a huge hate. Um, we love them.
(01:37):
I have a huge hate. I hate yellow jacket wasp.
I never knew what they were until recently. I have
been attacked assaulted. Uh No, I was mentally and physically
in pain when it happened yesterday, out on my jog,
just minding my business, and then these yellow jacket wasp
(01:58):
decided to sting me. Uh the things staying and bite
that's what they do. They bite thee They bite you.
I didn't even know they had teeth. Yes, they got
teeth and they use them all right, terrifying to think
about insects from flying around with teeth in the amount bite.
(02:18):
But they bite you to get a better grip so
they can pull the stinger closer and get it in deeper.
And they did not lose their stinger after they sting you.
Did you do a whole research paper? I did after
I was literally jogging and then suddenly I got bit
or stung and I didn't know what was going on,
and I started freaking out. And I'm screaming in the
middle of this path, this trail by myself, and then
(02:39):
I started sprinting because they kept coming. How many were
after your cure? I think I'm got stung about five times.
And I say this all cute. But if I show
y'all how my butt look right now, y'all gonna be
like dad. But yeah, it looks I tried to get
an ass shot that didn't quite work out. It's terrible.
(03:03):
So that's what I hate, yellow understandable. I have a
love this week. It's been raining a bunch here in Virginia,
so we've been stuck inside a lot and I finally
got out and I rode my bike, and guys, I'm
just loving like the sound of my tires against the rain,
(03:23):
the green greenery of Virginia so much. I just feel
like the neighborhoods are beautiful. So I guess like bike
rides in beautiful areas is what I'm loving this week.
I feel like I just read the first chapter of
a Scholaskis book, right, like an of Green Gables or
some ship, Like you're going to selve a mystery in
the next couple of yes, like you had a picnic
(03:45):
basket on top of your bike. I'm just did you
really know I'm there? Definitely is this air in suburbia
that's the very like refreshing after being in a tin
everywhere city all the time. It's very nice. Um well,
(04:09):
you know, speaking of green, green's greenery my love. This week,
my mom taught me how to make collared greens. Is
so crazy color green. No, but it was a really
big deal. As you guys know, I'm not a chef
(04:30):
by any means. It's a struggle. And this week there
was like an organization that gave us bags of produce
and I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna
do with this, but I cooked them, and my mom
like walked me through the whole process on FaceTime and
we were just bonding. And yeah, it was a really
cool moment, especially because she's like she cook cooks, and
(04:51):
then you know, I eat eat. Uh, everybody has a job.
She in it for a new one. I think that's great. Yes,
I heard they taste good too. They were bomb. I
was like, oh, let me find out you could cook. Yes,
like I was, I can see you taking your first
(05:12):
bite and literally doing it like you other people that.
So that's my love this week. I love that. My
love this week is I'm home in Minnesota and I
just really cherish pictures. Like I've been going through old
(05:33):
photos because pictures, you know, pictures speak a thousand words
or whatever Mark says. Um, but like is that homework
or company exactly? But like you really do see emotion
and like moments and photographs from times that we don't remember,
like when we were babies or like toddlers. So that's
(05:56):
really cool. And I found the camera my parents used
to take pictures of us as a kid, which is
like a Vivitar three hundred and so I'm gonna bring
it back to l A. But um, anyway, I'm ready
to get into our main topic this week. Yeah. So
in three Alice Walker coined the word colorism in her
(06:18):
book In Search of Our Mother's Gardens. Woman is pros
saying colorism is prejudicial or preferential treatment of same race
people based solely on their color. Walker put meaning to
an issue that permeates most cultures in the world. In
African American oral history, the brown paper bag test was
a form of racial discrimination practiced within the African American
(06:40):
community in social groups in the twentieth century by comparing
an individual's skin tone to the color of a brown
paper bag. We see this all over the world in
Asian and African cultures, the idea that skin color and
features that are closer and representative of whiteness are more
favorable than others. So today we're discussing our thoughts on colorism,
(07:04):
the brown paperbag test, and how we can work to
dispel this division that still lingers in our community. But first,
let's take a little break. Welcome back. Let's get into
(07:27):
the main conversation this week. When did you all first
realize colorism existed? Oh? I know for me, one of
those moments came. We were all like, I had sent
an emoji to the group chat and for years I've
been using the second to last darker emoji, thinking that
(07:51):
was my skin color. And then you guys were like, yes, man,
that's not your skin tone. You'd use the wrong emoji.
And I was like what You're like, yeah, your light skinned,
And I was like what It blew my mind. I
feel like that is remarkable that that you didn't know
(08:14):
that you would be considered light skin. Yeah, that will
just to clarify for the audience out there. That was
last year. This introduction to colorism hit yasmin. But yeah,
I think when we had that conversation, I remember being
on the balcony with your husband and being like, wait, huh.
(08:38):
It was just so baffling. But then in doing some
more research, realized that there are plenty of light skinned
people who didn't realize that they fell under that category.
That's just usually not what we see. I think my
first realization of colorism was I think Kara has a
(09:01):
similar story. I went to vacation for a summer and
I came back very much darker than I typically am,
and this boy that I liked was like, damn, I
didn't even notice you. I didn't even recognize you. You
you got black. And it was the first time I
realized that being darker there was a stigma to it,
(09:23):
or like that I had a privilege of not living
that way typically. Yeah, I do have a similar story
where I went on vacation and got chocolate, chocolate, chocolate,
and that happened about that happened every summer, just about
um for a few years. But I feel like when
I was younger, my mom told me a story about
(09:44):
my grandmother who was a very dark skinned woman, and
her mom being not kind to her because of that,
And I remember it always sticking with me because I
was like, but granny is so beautiful, Like I feel
like my grandmother is genuinely just gorgeous. And I remember
being like, oh, but she's dark skinned, so the world
feels a way about that. I don't remember there being
(10:07):
a time where I wasn't somewhat aware of colorism, just
because I grew up in a pretty black community and
I always fit in the middle, and I always had
a level of like, well, i'm brown, I'm not dark,
I'm not light. But like A knew light skinned girls
had light skinned privilege, or at least that's what I
saw in my community, and I knew dark skin girls
(10:28):
had not not the same privilege. Like I knew that
there was a stigma around it. Yeah, there's definitely like
dudes like light skinned girl, yep. Yeah. Even had a
girl tell me one time it was her and his
dark skinned girl that both like the same guy, and
the guy picked the dark skinned girl and she was like,
but I'm light skinned, like literally said that. Yeah, and
(10:50):
you're delusional too, but that's hilarious. Kind of my me
of my first instance of really being hit over the
head with the concept of colorism. Because growing up in Minnesota,
I was just black. I knew that my skin was
black and everyone else's was white. And so when I
(11:13):
went to college in the South at Spellman, which is
a historically black college, I had heard that that was
kind of a thing, but I was like, well, it's
not going to affect me. And I did a pageant
like at HBCUs. Actually I'm sure you remember this, but um,
they have so many different pageants like Miss Dental Club, Mr.
(11:35):
Science Bowl, like everything has a court and a royal
queen and blah blah blah for homecoming, which is the
biggest deal at the school. Um, so my brother dorm
was doing their dorm queen and I was like best
friends with all the guys, Like there's still a lot
of like my best guy friends to this day. And
(11:55):
my best friend's fiance had to break it to me
that I wasn't going to be on the court and
tried to argue for me, but they ultimately chose three
women who were light skinned and it wasn't like those
their resumes couldn't touch mine. So like I was going
into it thinking like I'm a leader and these things
speak for myself, and my beauty speaks for itself. But
(12:16):
I didn't know I was about to be entering a
world that had so many layers of bias in terms
of skin color and women specifically. Did you guys talk
about color in your families? Oh? Yes, I don't want
to dominate this conversation, especially recognizing, Um, I know what
(12:41):
I think. The fact that you have light skin privilege,
but you acknowledge that is a huge deal because some
people don't acknowledge it or like don't even want to
have this conversation. Um so um tap tap there. But
in terms of my family, it wasn't as perpetuated. But
my mom tells me a lot about growing up in
(13:02):
Ghana and she has six sisters and she's the darkest
and they always would tease her and like call her
ugly and stuff growing up. So she kind of had
some tips with that. So she really instilled in me
to be confident about just who I am as a person.
And it wasn't ever about like, you're dark, so you
have to be that. It's like you're a woman and
you're black, so you have to present yourself a certain
(13:25):
way and act a certain way. But when I was
in Ghana recently, we brought some Barbie dolls to some
of the little girls in like our family and extended family,
and one of the mothers literally like in the Dark
Girls documentary that we all watched. If you haven't watched it,
you should, it's on YouTube, Dark Girls part one, in
part two. But the mother was like, there was one
(13:47):
with an afro and there was a white blonde doll,
and she was like in TWI like, oh, I'll take
the straight hair, like I don't like that hair about
the afro, and I you, guys, I just lost it.
Maybe it's because I had come out of a breakup,
but I started bawling and I wanted to scream at her,
and just because I was like, you have no idea
(14:08):
that you bleach your skin and you do all these things,
and you're this little girl is learning that right now
in front of our eyes. It's always so sad to
see people just like not love themselves or like reject
things that look like them. My immediately family did not
really talk about color much like my brother is a
(14:28):
little more light skinned than the rest of us, but
it was always like, oh, well, Andrew looked like Uncle Frank.
But it was never like he's better than us or
we're worse than him. But my mom's mother could have
passed for white, Like she was a very very very
fair skinned woman, and my mom's chocolate than me, and
so like she grew up in in a time where
(14:52):
all at the cookout everyone was light skinned and it
was like pot the little dark kids. Um. But it
was really surprising to me and talking to her that
she doesn't have a complex about it, Like there was
something that went on her home, like her mother loving
on her, whatever it was that made it so that
she's like, yeah, I'm brown, uh, and you could consider
(15:15):
me dark, but that's not gonna inform how I moved
through the world, which is I think a little rare.
I think that's very true on the part about her
mom the way she raised her, because parents project so
much of whatever their in securities are on to their kids,
and I feel similarly, my mom didn't have a complex.
(15:36):
I'm brown skin, so I feel like especially and what
is it charmed city? Uh? I mean I have a
brown skin privilege. So it was like, yeah, I'm not
the light skinned girl that all the dudes want to date,
but I'm comfortable in this skin tone. I do remember
my brother always dating light skin girls and that being
(15:57):
something in my family where we me and my mom
would joke be like, oh, oh, what's toy she lights get?
Huh yeah, I bet you like. And I think he
went to a dance with one dark skinned girl and
he'd be like, and I was like, so one dog
skin girl, but your baby mama light ski. Every other
girl we just say a toy, you know, Tiffany, all
of them light skins, so we kept it light. But
(16:20):
also it where is the root of uh the problem?
I mean, I think it's just a conversation that I
would probably have now as a grown up with my
brother and see where he's at with that. It's so
real because I definitely know like, and I think part
of even my own perception. So my dad is regular
brown and my mom is relatively I guess light, but
(16:44):
growing up, I know I'm like, yeah, but I imagine
that I was just like regular brown's. My grandmother on
my mom's side was very light, like could pass for white.
Similar to what you were saying. Ask me about your grandma,
and she was from this out. I never really thought
twice about, like, you know, what does it mean that
(17:05):
there are generations and my family that are just I mean,
like from Shreeport, Louisiana thinking about the implications of slavery
and what that actually looks like. So I'm just when
people would be like what do you mix without always
be like just black. Thank you for sharing that, asman.
I feel like that goes to a deeper level of
when we talk about how the things that happened to
(17:26):
our ancestors are cellular and like they are still in
the air that we breathe, and it's kind of our
job to dispel and break some of those negative things
that we don't feel we need. And I think in
the I'm assuming Creole is where your family is coming
from Louisiana or some aspect of that. Am I we
(17:48):
just can never trace it, Okay. My grandma was like
her father was light, you know what I mean, Like
it was just like generations of light folks without really
much connection to why. And that I think that speaks
to how it was a survival mechanism. And we know
that the root of all of this comes from colonization
and comes from divide on the plantation and conquering. We
(18:13):
can pick the light versus a dark or whatever against
each other, then we have control because we control the
narrative then. And I it was a survival mechanism for
people back then to know if I pass, I need
to marry somebody else who passes. Because we want our
kids to have an easier life. They're not going to
have to deal with the color aspect of it as much.
(18:36):
Who what about how colorism has affected us in our
dating lives. I definitely know that my dad I can't
think of actually any dark skinned women that he would
date growing up, and he y'all want, I love my
dad so dearly. He would date so many women. I
(18:57):
was going through this photo album at his house and
it was just like woman after woman, and they just
all sort of look the same. I mean some of
them even had the same name, you know what I mean. Like,
but it's kind of crazy because in my adult life
I was going back through, like who are the women
that I've dated, especially as we're coming into this conversation,
(19:17):
and like being honest and vulnerable and like I'm not
gonna lie, y'all. I came into this conversation with a
bit of trepidation because I'm like, it's so hard to
learn in public, but also like to really confront the
way that colorism shows up in my life, and I
have dated so many light skinned women. I'm just like,
what does that mean? What are the things that I
(19:39):
need to unpack from my family and what are the
things that I've been taught that I need to unlearn?
And like, how do I decolonized desire? Right? I don't
know if this is true or not, but I don't
feel like a lot of black women colorized black men
the way black men colorized black women. Yeah, I look
at black men and usually like chocolate. My first boyfriend
(20:02):
was probably a little darker than me. And as an adult, um,
I've gone all the shades of end racist as well.
I've dated outside of my race, but I don't feel
like it's I feel like there are times where I've
maybe counting myself out, and I don't know how true
(20:22):
that is to the black men counting me out. There
are times where I have had situations with black men,
especially living in l A, where nown date black girls
like they just don't, which is very problematic because I
get if you have a type, but what is it
rooted in. And what do you mean you don't date
an entire race that's the same race as you, And
(20:45):
I know where it's stemming from. That's why it's problematic,
not because they can date a white girl. I could
care less with you dating most of the time. I
don't want to date show us anyway, So go ahead
the white girl, go ahead. But I have you mentioned
like how black men, I guess stereotype the color of
(21:05):
black women's skin more so than um vice versa. But
I have heard many a stereotype about like light skinned
dudes are soft and that dark skin do the more
aggressive they probably go and get arrested, you know, like
they still have the stigmas. Um. I suppose I was
(21:27):
trying to think about my dating history and the type
of men I've liked, and it's like Kira has been
a little all over the spectrum. I feel though that
in looking at it, I haven't been um Like, darker
dudes wouldn't give me as much play as like a
light skin do, or a white guy or a Latino
(21:49):
guy would. Um. And I feel like some of that
is like I want my kids to have good hair
or you know, black girls have attitude um or or
trying to come up like if you're round skin, you
want someone who's gonna elevate your race type thing, which
is ignorant. Um, that's not what I believe. I feel
like I've dated or you know, I've had like very
(22:12):
close guy friends who were upwardly mobile, like really killer
successful type guys who we're smart and like doing stuff
for themselves. But I always felt like those kind of
guys didn't want to date me, like they maybe want
to be my best buddy and hang out all the time,
but they didn't want to claim me as like their
(22:34):
status symbol, which is like the woman on your arm.
That whole thing. Um, it's weird. And then there are
other black men who would be attracted to me or
would be like, oh, Nubian princess, like in almost a
fetishy type way, who I feel like thought, oh, this
woman is dark and chocolate and down for the cause,
and she's gonna come in my life and take on
(22:55):
my baggage and be more of a maternal as opposed
to a goddess like they say in the documentary, like
I see you as somebody who will take care of
me as opposed to somebody who's sexy and desirable and
like deserves a certain reverence from me as a man
or a partner. And like my first boyfriend ever who
was in college, um and was a black man. It
(23:18):
was from Virginia, and he told me that if his
grandmother was alive, or maybe it was his great grandmother,
she would roll over in her grave if she saw
how dark I was. Like the young me was like, Oh,
that's but like thinking about that, that's like, oh, that's
pretty deep and might explain the demise of our relationship.
(23:41):
But it's just it goes back like we're at the
place now that we are just having these conversations about no,
we still see this problem like in hip hop and
mainstream culture everywhere. Yeah, I do think that this moment
in time is really forced all of us on a
global scale to really sit down and like, look at
(24:05):
our lives, look at what's working, look at what isn't working.
What are the generational things that we've learned and that
we need to stop. Right now, I'm thinking about hip
hop and being like a seventh or ninth grader watching
mystical you know, either one, but just seeing so many
(24:28):
light skinned women getting praised. I never wanted to be lighter.
I never wanted to be darker. But I was like, dang,
what's so great about light skinned women that everybody like
so much? And it wasn't until I was older I
was like, Oh, it's like things that are close to whiteness.
Like I wasn't able to be lighter in skin tone,
(24:48):
but I was able to be articulate and like distance
myself from darkness or blackness that way, right, And it
also in terms of speaking and how you present your health.
The other side of that is socio economic status. I
want to say that on the documentary they said that
light skinned men make more Yeah, well, and it shows
(25:13):
up and like multiple facets from the way that like
black girls are especially darker skinned black girls are criminalized
in schools, like with incarceration. There is this study at
Villanova of like a North Carolina jail, and it showed
that light skinned women received prison sentences that we're twelve
percent shorter than dark skinned women. Another aspect of that,
in terms of like activism and stuff is why do
(25:37):
white people or lighter people get to the front of
a picket line while protesting, because that's a symbol visual
symbol of how a police officer is less likely to
shoot and kill a person whose skin is lighter and
see some humanity in them instead of just beating them
like a dog because they don't see. I think I saw,
(25:58):
actually recently, um with what's happening in the world, a
woman was getting beat with paton sticks by police officers,
and I was on Twitter and somebody was like, yo,
she light skin and they still beating her as uh sorry,
I but I remember thinking like I hadn't seen police
be a light sking girl with curly hair with batons.
(26:20):
The way they beat dark skin and people who they
coined more aggressive, darker skinned black people, it makes me
think that the reality is that there is no difference
between us, and that they perpetuate differences between us. They
highlight these differences so we feel like we're paid against
each other. But in all honesty, the cops is gone.
(26:42):
If you white, you black, you you know whatever it is,
you out of line, you out of line, and like
it's it will take us all realizing like you're dark,
your curly hair, you're light whatever, all of us have
to be together. Yeah, because control like recogniz rising. I
think especially for light folks that are light skin. There
(27:04):
are things that even though we all experience racism as
black people, there are ways that I don't experience certain
things or privileges that I am afforded because I am
light skin and like being very cognizant of that and
like unpacking it and working at it constantly, right in
the same way that I'm working towards like defunding the
police and the activism and all that stuff. This too,
(27:26):
is a part of the work that I must do
and that we must do because our brothers, sisters, uh,
you know, non gender conforming in between are being treated differently,
all right, So we cannot have a conversation about colorism
and not talk about Mommy a short pageant. You know,
(27:50):
we gotta talk you stern Um. You're short. Once you wrote, directed,
and started, um, go ahead and share some of the
promise about that film and what inspired you. The concept
came from feelings that I had after I graduated from Spellman,
my beloved alma mater in Atlanta, because you guys know,
(28:10):
I grew up in Minnesota around a very white community
and then went to spell Men to kind of find
my black identity and learn about blackness in America, which
is crazy because in Minnesota, I was just black, but
when I got to Atlanta, I was dark skinned black,
and I didn't know that there was um a gradient
or you know, that colorism was as pervasive in our
(28:31):
community as it is. So it was very interesting to me,
and I would see examples and pageants and just in
social settings. So I wanted to discuss that in a
way that made people laugh but also kind of shed
a little light on the subject matter because it seems
like a kind of sweep under the rug in the community. Yeah,
most definitely. I just think it's important for us to
(28:55):
not be afraid to have the conversations within our community
that might be uncomfortable. Because in trying to get this
feature made, there have been black executives I'm looking at you,
who have told our agents like I don't want to
make a movie about colorism. And these are people who
when you list these are black movers and shakers and filmmakers,
(29:16):
their name is on that list. And I think that's
a problem to say that we were fighting for white
people to tell our stories and we don't even want.
Some of them told m I don't know if y'all
grew up with this saying like what happens in this
house stays in this house, Yeah, which is like I
think something that a lot of black people hold on too,
(29:37):
like why would we tell our business, why will we
let them know that we're fighting? Also Vegas Vegas too?
In Vegas, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. They
sold from the black people, just like they do. But
I do think that that has something to do with it,
because a lot of black folks that I've talked to
(29:58):
you have been raised with that mentality, and you know,
you don't want to give white folks to talk about
don't be looking at us sideways. Were cool over here,
but we're not. Let's talk about it. M m hmmm.
That that hit me so deep. There's so many things
that you're just not supposed to talk about, and like
it's like, why can't we talk about it? And I
(30:19):
feel like we're the generation who's like, you know what, Actually,
those are your skeletons, that's your closet. That's not my
cross to bear, or rather that it is because now
we're gonna unpack the skeleton. Well, yeah, you know, we
got to do the worth that they wouldn't do, and
I understand why you wouldn't want to because it's uncomfortable
and people argue, and you can lose family, your friends
(30:41):
because of sharing your beliefs. But it I think is
more beneficial for us to have these conversations and to
figure out how we can get away from judging each
other or some ship that we can't even we can't change,
we don't control. It, don't mean nothing. And I think
to like, sometimes people don't of the conversations because people
(31:01):
have been able to get away with like, well, that's
just my type. So people tell me that I'm racist
or I'm colorist because I like this type of woman.
And I'm like, yeah, I am telling you that, But
how do we actually and how can you change? How
can you change you after so many years? And I
don't think you have to actually start dating you know,
(31:22):
every shade to prove a point, but I do think
it can't be a problem you continue to have after
a conversation. I will say that the idea of unconscious bias,
like part of of it is like becoming aware of
the bias in order to address it and acknowledging it
that it exists, and also the fact that it happens
(31:45):
in cultures all over the world. Is mind blowing to
me because that's how powerful colonization is. Like they were
able to let everybody in the world know whiteness is better,
and don't white people are the majority. I was thinking
about our time in Thailand and how in Thailand we
(32:05):
saw all brown people. It was all and then I
looked up Thailand actors and they're all white looking, all
very fair skin. So it's like whiteness has been just
projected as a standard even though it's not attainable by
most of us. Yeah, and also like in Ghana, which
(32:27):
there are two sides of it, because in Ghana, like
as a black person, it feels like the country is
hugging you when you get there because everybody is black.
It's like going to HBCU homecoming or DC or freak Nick.
If I was no, you guys are not going to
be able to handle it because they'll be like, my queen,
(32:49):
our beauty is like what it is, like that's the standard.
But on the other side, it's one of the biggest
markets for skin bleaching cream because they're looking at us
in America being like this is what's beautiful. We're watching
rap videos of the artists we like, and these are
the girls they have in the videos. So that's what's beautiful. Um.
(33:10):
I have this video that I took at this fabric
shop and this woman because they've outlawed legally bleaching cream
and ghana, but people still sell it on the low low.
Like literally, this woman had a back door uh shop
full of every brand of bleach and type and lotion
and oil you could imagine. And I'm like, oh my god,
(33:31):
Like it's just so deep. How how it's like the
known thing. We should be lighter, we should be trying
to make our skin lighter. I think it really does
go back to that that what one of y'all said
earlier about it being a survival technique. You know, I
don't know about how it isn't in Ghana, but to
be successful in the world, it seems like you have
(33:54):
to have some relative closeness to whiteness, because whiteness is power,
Whiteness is sophistication, it's education. But that's also the TV.
What people are consistently seeing is a huge reflection of
how it got so global and how it became like
such a a known thing that whiteness is great because
(34:16):
majority of the movies where people are powerful and successful
and they're like white, it reminds me of how special
Whoopi Goldberg is. She was doing things, as you know,
stereotypically not beautiful, dark skin locks, and she was gorgeous.
(34:36):
You ever seen a young photo of Whoopie and she
was on Broadway and she was on she had moved,
you know the fact that that black woman was on Broadway.
Not only was she on Broadway, she was on Broadway
with a one woman show where she literally did like
twelve characters back to back. That's it m like, what
(34:56):
was happening in that moment? She was like Kevin Hart
in the way that these studio big movies like that
was her time and I don't know if we've seen
something similar since then. What we also have like a
defy the odds type, you know, like I'm gonna do
it my way and you don't like it watch, and
(35:18):
like a confidence about herself, which I think is something
that you know, we get a lot from the outside
world telling us who we are and how to be,
but it's really does start with ourselves and making sure
that we are saying nice things to ourselves and that
we are knowing who we are without external ship. Look
(35:39):
in the mirror, look at your skin or whatever it
is that's you down about, and look in your eyes
and tell yourself that you're beautiful. I try to do
it one time, and it's it can be difficult to
look at ope and eye and say things that you
don't necessarily believe, but I think it's important. Beauty is
literally a mindset. The way that you carry yourself in,
see yourself and feel about out yourself resonates on the outside.
(36:02):
And no, everybody's not going to think you're fine, no
matter what you look like. But if you know that
you are worthy of life, and worthy of love and
worthy of all things good, like that is the place
to get. Write yourself a love letter tonight. And actually
I did write a poem. It's called Note to Self
and you can find out the internet somewhere, but it
(36:25):
was very much that, like, let me pick myself up
and like, you know, write a love letter to myself.
And if you can't find the words to tell yourself
that you're beautiful, go ahead and reach out to us.
We'll write you a little nice letter, tell you how
fine you are beautiful. Okay, okay, you are batty, let
o d uplift you. We got your back. I feel
(36:47):
like this was definitely one of our heavier conversations. But
I love that we all got so real with our experiences.
And I really do think it's important, like what we
were saying before, like how do we end this thing?
Or like we can't ended in one day with the
what are the things that judges hit on the gavel?
Cal But we can do, you know, through our work
(37:10):
and through speaking up in certain moments, and I guess
recognizing and calling our own selves out or you know,
people close to us and having those hard conversations. Alright, yeah,
now I got my gavel. I guess colorism is over,
especially over he solved it with love and education. Beautiful.
(37:32):
Um you guys. I like to end this by saying,
my name is Ashley Holston and I'm a brown skinned woman,
and that is beautiful. Oh clap clap, um, my name
is yasmine when Watkins and I am what they tell me.
(37:53):
You can't unpack it if you can't say it. I
am a light skinned woman. Step yes, I am should
harrigan a pay and I am a brown skinned woman.
I could brown skin, brown skin you know, well, I
(38:18):
am Mammy ya a four oh, and I am a
beautiful dark black, brown skinned girl. Brown dark black is
like real black. But I'm brown. I'm saying it loud.
I'm black and I'm proud. Okay, yeah, say a lie,
but I'm black enough brown. All right. I think that
(38:44):
it's time for us to give some advice. But before
we get to that, let's take a little break. We'll
come back, y'all. It is time or a lucky listener
(39:05):
to give some advice. Okay, what do you have? All right?
Dear o d I've been dying to get this off
my chest. The other day, this down low guy he
put in parentheses, a straight guy who engages in homosexual
activities that I used to hook up with months ago,
had the audacity to ask me if him and his
(39:28):
new girl can have sex in my living room. I
almost don't even want to continue. I'm like, the answer
is no, but will continue answer? Why? Um? Apparently Sis
doesn't want to go to a hotel because of COVID.
This is craziness. And he can't bring his girl home
(39:51):
because his baby mama had to move in with him
because of COVID. This garbage, I told him I would
think about it, but I haven't replied you think about it? Okay,
I'm missing him and maybe this is him saying he
misses seeing me too. What do you think I should do?
(40:12):
Is this too toxic to engage with? Please help? Mr
wondering what to do? Mr wondering what to do? I
hope you know what to do. Why don't you invite
that drama into your home? Or are they like trying
to do it on the couch and invite you or
something like? Is that ethical? I don't know what their
(40:32):
goal is. This gave me so much joy because this
is toxic all the way around. One moment where I
was like, whoa, that sounds good. Mr wondering what to do?
You already said he had the audacity to ask. You
know that's not right. Don't nobody You don't ask an
ex Can I fuck somebody else? You live at room
(40:57):
and expect Yes, that's right, that's that person is nuts.
But and I get missing somebody and like thinking, you're
gonna see him, but he's gonna be there with the
intention to fund somebody else, So what's what's the point
and invite him into your life on that level? And
also to how comfortable do you feel with him? I mean,
(41:18):
it's not your business if he lies to this girl,
but like you know, he lied to this girl, he
just helping facilitate it. That's not okay. It's almost like
there's also like a lot of and you know, I
feel like a lot of by folks get this about
like the being down low or whatever, but like I
(41:38):
feel like life is just a lot easier when you
just embrace who you are fully. And it sounds like
this guy has a lot to unpack around shame for himself,
like that he can't be Also weird thing that he's like,
let me bring a woman to this man's right, that
I too, just rude as fuck, Like what are you crazy?
(42:03):
Like you disrespect me enough to not acknowledge that I
might have feelings for you because we hooked up before,
But you're bringing somebody else's body into my home so
you can get off and any one thing if like
you were also into women and we're like also into
his partner. Like everyone think there's an invitation to a threesome,
(42:27):
though not all by people love threesomes, um some of
us do too. Anyway, neither here nor there the point
is this sounds toxic? Man? I think you know what
to do, and I think that you just need someone
else to say it. So we're gonna say, don't let
this man. Don't do it now. You miss seeing them,
(42:47):
but you don't want to see him like that. I
guarantee you know, And you don't want to have to
scrape anything off the couch that you know where it can.
There are more healthy relationships that are out there for you.
I promise exactly. You deserve good love, the love that
sees you in the light, that sees you in the day,
that claims you unapologetically right your couch. No, that's that's
(43:20):
a no. I hope we helped two albums, the one
that what they do? You know? You know, you know
your heart knows you guys, today has been so as
Beyonce said, my heart is full? Did she say it
like a slave like that? I think that was a
slave accident. That's my go to slave. So I'm what
(43:43):
am I doing? Its full? Beyonce is real low, like
like she got something. You know, I'm Beyonce. Your boy
didn't go down it? Did I feel like say I'm Beyonce?
How about that? We are O D and we are ya.
(44:09):
Today has been awesome you guys. We've discussed what colorism is,
how it's affected our lives, how we've seen it in
our lives and in our families, and also gave I think,
some pretty awesome tools on how people can work to
dispel it in their lives. And we appreciate all of
you out there tuning in once again. We love you.
(44:32):
Remember to share and review this podcast. It helps us
and we want to know what you think, HM and
come on over to social media at Obama's Other Daughters
on Instagram at o d Improv, on Twitter and on
Facebook at Obama's Other Daughter Some people with us. We
want to get the yes be our friends and if
(44:54):
you need advice, we will answer your questions. To send
those letters over to odep podcast at gmail dot com.
We read every one of them. Do send it all right, guys,
We'll see you next week. You Down is a production
(45:15):
of Shawonda Land Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio.
For more podcast from shawdaland Audio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
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