April 6, 2021 • 61 mins
Are you down with the female rap renaissance? This week, OOD discuss the gendered double standards in the rap world and the up and coming artists that should be on your playlist. They also invite “God Save The Queens” author Kathy Iandoli on to speak to the historical legacy of women in hip hop, how to be white and not offend everyone else in the room (Iggy Azalea), and ways women are pushing back on the patriarchy - both on the charts and behind closed doors.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to You Down, a production of Shonda Land Audio
and partnership with I Heart Radio. It's a beautiful thing
to see the way that women, that black women specifically
are like pushing back and using their voices and their
platforms to tell honest, authentic stories about what our lives
are like in an empowered way, and it empowers others.
(00:24):
What's Up, everybody and Welcome back to You Down a
podcast wherefore funny honeys come together and talk about what's
going on in the culture. I'm Ashley Holstin, I'm Mommy
a Oh, I'm Yasmin Money Watkins, and I'm shacaragen Ape.
But collectively, together as a unit, we are known as
(00:44):
Obama's other Daughter. You down with O O D? Yeah?
You know me get fresh? And today we're asking are
you down with? Female rappers? Was the first year that
(01:05):
female rappers really dominated the charts. I mean they really
did it, y'all. It started with Doja Cat Nick Minaj
taking a top spot and becoming the first two female
rappers to reach number one with Say so Um and
then All while Megan The Stallions Savage contest was dare
(01:28):
I say, more viral than covid. Oh okay, it was bad.
I just said it was more viral than Okay, okay, alright, alright.
Those hits were followed by Boots, Buckets and a Mop
and the sexually positive hit Whop featuring Queen Cardi B
(01:48):
and Queen Megan. But even with all this progress, we
can't ignore the patriarchy, y'all, and the Snoop Doggs of
it all, because Snoop dog did have something saying. And
I'm excited to talk about this, but before we do,
I have a very important question for you ladies. If
you were a rapper, what would your rap name? Oh?
(02:09):
When I was in high school, I had a rap name.
It was ash Murder. It was my my Space name Murder.
She wrote, m hm, you know that could be here.
(02:31):
What about your dog? I heard it was supposed to
be like you're the street you grew up on, plus
your first pets name, so it was like hash Brown
Carlton Square Drive. Isn't that your poor name? Is it name? Alright?
I feel like you might get your poor name change.
(02:54):
Where's the hash Brown from? Oh? That was my first dog,
hash Brown. He was a cocker Spaniel that wash brown
colored very lovable dog r I p actually, Jasmine, that's
perfect for you. Yeah, what's up? It's hash Brown on
the Mike h Young, Hash Brown Man. What's yours? So
(03:27):
if I go from Yasmine's pool, it would be Hazel
Sugar Spice because my first pet was Hamsters, sugar and spice.
But I antund like a cop name. I was gonna
go with Shaquilla, my CrossFit name. Shaquill A good one
you can drink my team Murder Mountain View Drive hash
(03:54):
Brown with the murders and killers caught some View Drive
sound like a place as gated. I don't all right,
MOMMYA what's your name? I would want it to be
something like, you know, like Yams yeah, or like something
like the Dead of Nators, like something like really unassuming
(04:17):
and then you're like, it's me who pops up? Alright,
So we got bombs, we got killers, we got murderers
and the hash brand right. Actually, yah, I'm ready to
talk about what I've been hearing. It's a female rap
for Renaissance and I'm here for it. And today's episode
(04:38):
we are going to discuss the queens who got us here,
like missy Elliott, m Sea Light and Lil Kim to
the current women topping the charts we all know and
the comer uppers who exist across the spectrums of gender
and sexual orientation. And a little bit later, we're inviting
critically acclaimed journalists and author Kathy yander Lee on the show.
Kathy has been heavily immersed in this w world and
(05:00):
wrote an mp ARE Best book of the Year, God
Saved the Queen's The Essential History of Women in Hip Hop,
And like Grammy winner Meg the Stallion said, us, women
have always been talented, but it was a thing where
there could only be one woman rapper at a time.
That's why I was really excited that a lot of
women got their shine this year. So was I Mac.
(05:23):
But before we jump into it, a quick break. Welcome back, guys.
Let's get into it. What are your thoughts on women
dominating the charts right now? Oh? Love it? Here for it?
(05:43):
Do more of it, ladies, Yes, keep going, keep going. Um, yeah,
some of us do. Dad well, whether it's rhythmic or not. Yeah,
don't you be so hard on yourself. You're dancing is
still dancing, I think ye. I saw those shoulders just
(06:06):
butter Yes, and you don't have to dance on and beat.
I mean, you're at home in COVID, nobody's watching. But
when I see Cardi and Meg, especially dancing, it does
make me feel like I need to take a class.
A matter of fact, I didn't start taking its work class. Yeah,
(06:27):
because they really they really make like the lyrics make
me feel like I'm sexually empowered, I'm a goddess. And
then I'm looking in the mirror when I'm dancing like
them and it's not the same, and you think you're
doing the exact same thing too. You're like, but I
appreciate the words because they hyping me up. That Meg
(06:48):
has bionic knees. She must, Yeah, yeah, had those knees
at one point. And then we got old. I did
try to learn whop the choreography at the end, and
I won't say my my version of it was a
whop um or was it a womp? You know what
(07:14):
I did, though, I scuffed by knee on my dag
or carpet a fool, Yeah, but it was worth it.
That's why you shouldn't dance like that when you're over
thirty without without means. But yeah, I'm excited that women
are on the charts and it's about dag on time.
I feel like the shift has happened over the past
(07:36):
few years, and Cardi does have a lot to do
with it, um in the mainstream sense, but I do
feel like it's also been a long time coming. Yeah,
I definitely agree, like we've always had one, which is
exactly what in the quote that you read. Like, I
can remember growing up there's always one woman at least
(07:56):
who was on the charts, but if there were two,
it wasn't somebody on the same level or like with
the same exposure. Um as like you if you would
compare how Cardi and Megan are now like two people
who have really transcended and broken ceilings. Um So I
think it's yeah, all for it. We need more people
(08:18):
in more different types of rap, like we shouldn't just
be relegated to one thing. But I also think that
has to do with what the mainstream audience wants from
a female rapper, which I would love to hear your
thoughts on that. And I think there's this like culture
of like pitting women against each other that like I
(08:39):
don't know if that fully served us, I mean, or rather,
competition is great and and fun, but I feel like
now it's like a lot of lifting each other up,
like let's collab, let's like create stuff together. Um, and
I would love to see more of that. Like, yeah,
I feel like I have a few opinions on that,
because I do feel like that happened with Nikki because
(09:01):
she dominated the charts. It's the only female rapper for
several years, and then, um, she was expected to be
like inviting to these other women, which I think. I
love that Cardi was, and I love that Cardi did,
but I mean, the baby got famous this year and
I ain't seen him putting no men on. So many
other male rappers get famous and don't put nobody else on,
(09:21):
But it's up to women to have to put each
other on, because you know, it's such a male dominated space,
and you even see how it's not fair in that sense,
like because Nikki has such a bad rep because she
didn't put on other women. But I'm also like that
wasn't necessarily Nikki's job. I think it's awesome that Cardi
did it, and I'm excited that other women are doing
it and I love to see it, but other men
(09:44):
don't do that. But it was all on her to
do that, and then you know, the whole error just
keeps pushing and moving forward, and she was the only
one doing kind of holding it down for almost ten years.
She came out in two thousand eight with Fitty Bitty Piggy.
I loved Itty Bitty Piggy. Yeah, I mean that was
like her intro intro. It that was two thousand and eight,
(10:04):
and then she sort of slowed down by what nineteen
and Cardi blew up in So it was a solid
amount of years where Dead Loaf popped up and Hezalia
popped up? Um, who else? Fur he wanna? Why was that?
(10:25):
Kanye wannam for rapid? Yes? What her computer? Right now?
Let me find this song all of the Lights? Remember
I thought I lost my mom? Remember that song? So
that mackamore, Yes, okay, I mean it's not a new
(10:49):
thing that the Grammys slight women people of color. You
know a lot of people are realizing that they probably
just shouldn't be put in stock into what the Grammys
are even gonna do, because it's not going to honor
what the people even agree with that is the best.
But it sucks that winning a Grammy gets you opportunity,
(11:12):
you know, yeah. I mean even just the disrespect of
putting Cardi b Nicki Minaj, and Bad Baby in the
same category. Bad Baby, Yes, I don't listen to Bad Baby.
I only know is she high bitch? That's that song.
I'm sorry, but she is a whole thing that's really
(11:36):
disturbing on several levels. Like I'm like, blink if you
need help. But she has a great produced her Yeah,
where are her parents? Her mom is right there, right
there on the mors getting yet Yeah, I didn't see
the whole more clip. I thought her mom was there
to get help. Not her mom was there to get
(11:58):
help parenting at parents waiting bland you know, okay, white
work out. I mean it gave her a huge platform
story because her video went viral. So why don't you
like that Bad Baby and Nikki and Cardi would be
in the same category. It just feels like gentrification, Like
(12:21):
it just feels very appropriative, and it particularly sucks when
like black women have been doing it for so long
and continue to do it, and white women are the
ones that like acknowledge and reap the benefits. Like that
ship is sick to me. I guess mine is also
more so, I feel like Nikki never got her flowers,
(12:42):
like on a real level. And then Cardi came up,
which in Cardi got her flowers immediately because we all
love her and there's no hate between either one of
them for me. And then bad Baby, who doesn't even
have a full album and it's in a category for
a song for for best female rapper, and I just
don't feel like she's earned it. The beats are good,
(13:02):
but she's not a great rapper. She's okay. She just
repeats acts a great rap palent of bad Baby news.
Not it's not on any level even close. I shouted
out her producer because yeah, and I can bop my
head to it all day, but it's not like I'm
the lyrics are doing anything outside of what you would
(13:24):
expect the fourteen year old rapper to do, right, Yeah,
So how do you guys feel about? Like this is
a huge thing to like male rappers be talking about
all I was, I forgot, I forgot, but talk about
(13:49):
her hands or her whop? Oh the world is remember
the summer, like the outrage over Whopped And I didn't
see the video and then when I watched it, I
was like, where's the one they were talking about Like,
I get that they were in swimsuits, working and shaking,
but okay, it's not like they were showing the inside
of their It's not about what they're showing. It's about
(14:11):
what they're talking about and the audacity they would have
to dare be so sexual. You know, people don't like
women who can own their sexuality because sexuality is power,
and I think especially men, the patriarchy, the system in
general is afraid of what women will do when they
(14:34):
can own their sexuality and that power because they know
what we can do, they know what we're capable of,
which is running the world. A lot of them is
like they just couldn't handle it, Like, yeah, I would
know what to do with that if that came out way,
So I gotta hate it, yep, Like I didn't. I
didn't know how to use Snapchat for long, so I
was like, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna hate Snapchat.
(14:56):
Did you ever learn it? Nope? I don't. I don't
need Snapchat. I don't hate it an you know, it's
more of a joke, But I think that that's what
people do when they don't understand things, you decide to
hate it. Yeah, I agree. With it. I was gonna
say something that's not funny, but I was. Let's say.
The difference is men will decide to hurt it, maybe
kill it. Ak men will hurt women because they can't
(15:20):
control women. But it's a beautiful thing to see the
way that women, that black women specifically are like pushing
back and using their voices and their platforms to tell honest,
authentic stories about what our lives are like in an
empowered way, and it empowers others. I don't know what
City girls are telling about. No authentic? Are you kidding me? Okay, okay, okay,
(15:45):
I don't know about them. No, I'm talking to say
in general saying, I'm saying the authenticity of uh, what's that?
We're the bag at If y'all watch We're the bag
at video. JT scams a credit card. That is what
she went to prison four if you're not sticking music video,
which she went to jail four for over a year
(16:06):
stealing Free j T. Free j T. She didn't know.
I feel like it's really interesting though, that, like, given
that that's her true life experience that she's documenting through
this art form that's wrapped and some little something in
Minnesota or Wisconsin, is listening to that, hearing the end,
(16:28):
you know, indulging in that kind of like making a
caricature of somebody else's reality. And that's where I feel
like it gets like cloudy for me of where do
I draw the line of what what people put out there? Like,
I think I love city girls. I love everything they do.
It's just like the people who listen and buy the
(16:49):
albums the most are like, yeah, everyone's not going to
be like discerning and thoughtful and be like, Okay, I
shouldn't actually go out and scamper, you know. So I
agree with you, Mama, Mama. I agree with you, mommyya
that sometimes I worry about the message, the caricature, yeah,
(17:10):
and the character duration of that message. People out in
the world trying to be the baddest bitch with scamming niggas,
and I got to you know, yeah, it's okay to
be a regular Scamming is not nice. I don't think
to me, not cool. Robbing like I was dropping is
(17:32):
like cool. Sorry, I get it, I'll get it out. No.
I just like I also want to highlight some of
like I don't know, up and coming artists though that
don't always adhere to like I feel like hip hop
there's room for like a lot of different voices. Who
are some of you guys as like up and coming
artists You're like, I love her message, or oh, I'm
(17:55):
gonna throw in Missy Elliott who's been here and has
held down the flour and has I've been killing you know,
it's so you know, you know, what's so interesting is
like I was looking up a think piece on Missy
Elliott and about like how she's been here. She did
have that low, low but overall kind of consistent, but
like never the most talked about, especially amongst the hip
(18:18):
hop community, which is interesting because I'm like, well, she's
definitely put her steak in it, but I don't think
men like the men run hip hop in a way
where the women who are more sexual have been able
to win or to be more talked about. But that
doesn't take away from anything Missy has done, and she has,
(18:40):
you know, some people are given her flowers. I just
think it's I don't know, it's so interesting because her
career has lasted and been more consistent than the men
that she came up you know, definitely like did he
Mace or like shout out to Mace, we love you,
but my Mace he's a pastor now was a pastor,
(19:04):
and then he came back. Ye, welcome back. He had
another welcome no no, no, no, welcome back past Yeah.
When he was welcome back, that was pastor Mace. Yes, yes,
he got back in the world and then he got
back correct with the old. I love um Tira wack. Yeah,
(19:26):
she has some really groovy jamsy jobs. I mean, I
feel like I don't seek out a lot of rap
music in general, but I do enjoy what Kira gives me.
(19:51):
I'll never forget that. I know. Before Megan popped, I
was like, y'all we like watch videos for hours, didn't
we because I remember when they came. When they finally popped,
I was like, oh, I've been when Mulatto popped. You
were like, oh, I've been listening to Relay. I didn't
(20:13):
even know Mulatto popped. Is she not an up and
comer because I'm still up and coming. But she's definitely
like I mean, she has a song with Gucci Mai. Yeah,
I see her. I've seen her wigs on upgrades. You
always know when about to sky rocket. Um no, Names
song thirty three that came out this summer. It was
(20:36):
the first time I heard Abolish the Police in a
song that like, I put it on repeat, like for
an hour straight, made a music video for it, Escape visual, Like.
I loved that song, and I'm like, what No Name
is doing. I'm like, yes, um, Chica, she's so bomb
and i'd soul. I also hell a funk with like
(20:59):
she was like a singer as well, though she likes
sings and his hip hop, but she was on that
NPR list of like hell yeah like and I was
just like, yes, I'm so happy that she's getting I
loved her life and I loved her um. She had
a very acoustic, beautiful melody to her voice. I'm not
a singer, but I like Tashi sound. It's it's very
(21:22):
much like it's a vine. But like they're even like
l a folks like ilk Mill that like are just
it's you love to see it. You're like, shine on,
shine on. Why do you think those rappers that you
just mentioned, some of them that are more nuanced, they
don't get the shine or the platform. I don't know
(21:44):
if it's the labels they're signed to or just that
they're not talking about the things that they want a
female rapper on the top one hundred to talk about.
I think it's also a mix of UM. I mean,
the b and the lyrics matter. But when I think
of even male rappers and what's popular, I mean six
(22:08):
knits on charts and I'm like, what is he like
actual skill? I mean there's a lot of mumble rap
that hits the charts, or like everybody listening to the
same thing. UM, I don't know. I feel like there's
a lot of pop rap that hits the charts, but
that doesn't mean that there's not like a huge audience
(22:29):
of people. I mean, when you think of that Tyler,
the creator UM Music Festival, I want to tell that's
so bad. It looked so popping. But I do feel
like that's where a lot of these artists would showcased
and there's a huge audience for them, a people who
would show up excited. UM. But it's not really mainstream.
(22:50):
But even if you think of you know, a Frank Ocean,
I mean, how many number ones has he had? Has
he had one? We love him, but I also feel
like he doesn't care. It's like y'all gonna get you
think you're gonna get when you get it. Yeah, exactly
exactly for me. I think it's rare to see like
queer artists in the spotlight, and like folks like Ivy
(23:13):
Soul are like I'm a sing about loving women and like,
not everybody loves that ship because they're like, well that
doesn't include me. So I have no real place to
go aside from deep side. This is the world we
live in. I forgot about Young Mam. I just I
(23:34):
think it's young in May. Um, I'm gonna call young Mam.
So I heard her. I was watching a TikTok the
other day and I was like, what is this song?
This like voice is so buttery? Um, And it was
young a young Mom. Did you see that she directed
a port Yes, I've seen her poor it's not bad.
(23:59):
Wait what I missed this? She directs porn. Now she
at least place her music in it. I don't know
if that's the case, but I agree with young Mom
that the porn industry is disgusting and if we're going
to have people doing porn, let's give them good. We're
going to have people watching porn, they're better. They're definitely
(24:21):
like a little less cheesy. The people are more pocs,
different body types, but it's still, you know, very much
young m a. Her porn is is trying to be elevated,
but you know she's still very much Yeah. No, it's
(24:47):
well because there's artist porn, there's like very feminist porn
that is too feminists for me. Um, and then some
of it's too feminists for me too, and I'm like,
I'm trying. I'm down. I'm down. It's just my girl.
He's gonna do a blurred soft screen like, why y'all
moving so slow? I don't know. This is not younger.
(25:09):
We should have younger man on the podcast, were really younger?
May you trying to know? I feel like she'd scoop
all four of us. She ain't scooping me up. You
wouldn't get scoop. She would do nothing for you, girl,
But I type by then she's not pretty. I like
(25:29):
a pretty stud. But yeah, she's a little rough of me.
I'm I think if you saw you might like it.
And she gives real like if you if you watch them,
if you're insimidating anything, I don't know what you know?
(25:50):
Oh my god, Sure introduce you to something sash things
I don't know if I need. When we come back,
we're inviting hip hop journalists Kathy Yandeley on the show
to dig in even deeper into the female rap renaissance.
(26:17):
Welcome back everyone, Let's get into it with our special
guest today. Kathy Yandeley is a critically acclaimed journalist and author.
She has written for Vibe, The Source, x x L,
The Village Voice, Rolling Stone, Billboard Magazine, Vice Magazine, and
many other publications. I know I think you did all.
(26:44):
I tried to run the gamut. It's been twenty years,
to be fair, so you know, I'm not exactly laughing
people at that point. After twenty years, I should have
hit more than three publications. But yeah, you know. But
we also know that you held at tatorial positions at
top hip hop and urban websites, including All hip Hop
dot Com, hip Hop, d X dot Com, and BT
(27:08):
dot Com. Yonda Li is an alumna in Residence of
Music Business at New York University and has appeared across
the media on television, radio, and panels discussing hip hop
and gender. Today, she will be helping us break down
the good, the bad, and the ugly of being a
woman in hip hop. Thank you so much for joining us. Kathy,
(27:31):
thank you so much. So let's start out. What are
your thoughts on the way women are dominating and to
be frank being included in the charts right now, UM
given you you being able to watch this basically from
its inception to where we are now, I think it's amazing.
(27:52):
I think that we're inching towards that point where it
will no longer be female rappers and just rappers at
that point. So I think that that's where we're getting,
hopefully very soon. And I think that um, over the
last like three years, I think that made that shift
(28:15):
was really happening. So I love it. But I also
love how even like our legends are getting their flowers,
like Rup and Chantey. My friend just texted me that
Lauren Hill became the first female rapper to go diamond,
So yeah, and I think that that's like all of
(28:36):
these milestones and you know, Missy Elliott finally getting the
admission that she deserves. I think that there's just a
lot that has been happening all at once. So it
feels like hip hop has like a goldfish memory, right,
so like they'll forget what happened as it pertains to women, right,
so after like five minutes, it's like, wait what. And
(28:57):
I think that that happened a lot when it's hot
when you talk about covering women in hip hop, because
it always was just like ladies first, andy love, like
no disrespect. Obviously they're amazing legends, but there was there's
no look toward the future, and now like there's no choice.
(29:20):
I mean, how do you think we've we've gotten to
this place and and why do you think it's taken
so long for these women to get their come up
in so a couple of days ago on my Instagram,
I put up the picture of Little Kim squatting classic Yeah.
I captioned it, um little Kim squatted so other female
(29:41):
rappers could stand a chance. I'd like to say that
it was the groundwork that Kim Laid and Lauren and
you know all of those artists in the mid nineties
carried over to Nikki's tenure rain and then to get
to this point, I think what Kim and Lauren did, specifically,
(30:04):
like by my pal Kim well, Little Kim and Laura
Hill did was they provided two very stark contrasts of
the type of music and art that women can make
in hip hop, and what that allowed for was to
not only hit the charts, but make it so mainstream
(30:25):
that you didn't really you latched onto it from from
all walks of life. And I think that by the
time we got to Nicki Minaj, who arguably is the
combination of the two, right, Nikki showed what the next
level could look like. Because now Nikki is a part
of what I'd like to call the billionaire generation of
(30:45):
hip hop? Can you define that? What do you mean
by that? So I think, you know, in the nineties,
the the kind of the goal post was a millionaire,
you know. So once we get into this era, right
the twenty well, you know, for Nikki was like the
twenties ends into the twenties, hip hop artists are are
pushing billionaires like that's the goal post. So for you know,
(31:07):
Nikki specifically, at that point in time, Nikki provided what
would be the next level for women in hip hop
when when she arrived on the scene. So now we're
at the point of like Cardi B and Megan the Stallion,
Rego Nasty Tara, Wax City Girls, everyone, Right, we're at
this point now where not only have through the course
(31:29):
of these twenties something years, proven that women are profitable,
we're also showing that they're diverse and allowing that, you know,
you can't pigeonhole like one artist, and I think it's
making it a lot harder to have that conversation of
there can only be one. So that's what I think,
you know, and Nicky was the only one for a
(31:50):
good ten years, but I think because of that, she
opened doors for so many other artists. But you know,
obviously have to give credits to the ones who came
before her, because we're the ones who laid that groundwork.
And that's a systemic issue, right, Like why was Nikki
the only one for ten years? You kind of just
gave a you know, the history behind it. But from
(32:11):
your perspective, why did that happen? I think there's a
lot of factors that came into play. I think around
when Napster started, um hip hop took the biggest hit
we had, like DJ Drama who was doing everything, you know,
the mix tapes, and you know, hip hop was one
of the only genres that found a way. They found
(32:31):
a way, and also hip hop as a whole is
built on the idea of bootlegging right handing out mix tapes.
That's how that's how the promotional vehicle went. So Napster
really wasn't a hit specifically to hip hop, but it
was a hit to the record labels who were trying
to make money off hip hop. So hip hop artists
were thriving by reputation and they were doing their things
(32:52):
on the live circuit. But what label started to do
was they put a cap on how women could tour.
They put a cap on how much it would cost
you a music video, all of those things. In my book,
I talked to Trina and Trina was told she was
too expensive to tour. Yeah, they said, well you're you're
(33:16):
gonna They were like, you need makeup and hair, and
she's like, I'll do my own Harold and my own makeup.
And they're like, and what dudes come on with, you know,
grace wet pants? And they're fine, Um, okay, they are fine,
but they're fine. But I also think it, let's be
very obvious, it's it's how the machine attacks black women.
(33:40):
So I think that that first and foremost has something
to do with it too. The idea of someone not
named Janet Jackson being a pop star or someone not
named Whitney Houston being a pop star. I feel like
everyone collectively thought Lauren Hill let them down, so tr
so you're now dealing with racism, sexism, trust issues, financial,
(34:05):
whatever's right. And I think by the time Nikki came,
it took labels ten years to figure out that she
was consistent. She was going to keep doing it with
or without them, right, and they all of a sudden
were like, let's jump in. And I think that's where
(34:25):
you have like Cardi b who comes in. And they
tried it right, They tried, Oh, Nikki, be careful, cardis here.
They tried. But I think, you know, in a couple
of shoes were thrown at the met gala. I mean
it happens. What hey, shoes usually aren't thrown unis there's
a reason. Yeah, sometimes my lubatan ends up in my
(34:48):
hand and I just don't know where to put it right,
so I just you just aim. But I think after
that all went down, and after the sensationalizing of Nicky
and Cardi, everybody kind of just lowered their swords and
I was like, all right, let's just all make money,
because that's that At the end of the day. Now,
that's what it is. And I'm not saying it's driven
(35:08):
by capitalism, but it's like, now you can't get in
the way of my bag, and now we have so
many people. I mean, and I don't want to say
that for Nikki's ten years, we didn't have other artists
like we had Trino, we had Rhapsody, right, we had
Missy for a bit, and I think during that time
period Eve was kind of but because I can't remember,
(35:33):
Tambourine was not. It was before Nikki, But I think
that Nikki was the most prominent, right and and um consistent. Yes,
I was gonna say. I feel like there's also with
the rise of how social media is used, it was undeniable.
There were gonna be too many people coming out of
the woodworks, you know, so many females have come out
(35:56):
that we're like, you gotta give him a chance. There's
a million people instagram rocking with them. Um, So I
feel like that helped to share some of the light. Yeah,
artists are getting signed through social media, you know. Yeah, Kathy,
what do you think about what some would call a
double standard when it comes to the overt sexuality from
(36:19):
male rappers versus you know, the pushback female rappers get
for doing similar things. I can't tell you how many
times over the last six months I've sat on panels
and the first thing and I'm talking female panels right
about women's empowerment, and I'm asked how I feel about
(36:41):
stripper wrap. That was the thing, that's just what they
want it. I was like, wow, because I want to
say that the double standard was part of the patriarchy,
but that isn't. I would be so incorrect to say it, because, um,
(37:05):
I'm hearing more of the judgment come from women, to
be really honest, so the double standard. But just to
throw in, women are just as brainwashed by the patriarchy
as a lot of men, you know what I mean,
that's true at their core. The level of hate that
has been just produced by the misogyny in this world
(37:28):
that even women carry around, I mean, from hating the bodies,
their own bodies and their own that's why you can
sell us all these products and get us, you know,
to change ourselves. But again I feel like and and
and once again I feel it boils down to race,
because we're at a point where you can have pop
(37:48):
stars who are promoting sex positivity. Right, Um, that phrase
wouldn't have would have never been allowed for Little Kim
or Foxy Brown. Want to be very honest, and I'm
never allowed for for Nicki Minaj. You know, it certainly
isn't allowed for Lizzo. So I think that I think
that that has a lot to do with it, um
(38:09):
and how the double standard is kind of enforced. And
I think like the thing that pushed everyone over the
edge was what oh yeah, And I honestly I thought
it was gonna be spreading the way people were talking
about it before I saw it, and I said, that's
an HBCUM dance team routine or you know, like that's
not anything out of this world that they were doing
(38:32):
the cry baby because they have big but like, what
what's everyone up in arms about? Yeah? And I think
the other I don't want to call it a problem,
but I think the other trend, right is a lot
of your more prominent male hip hop artists have now
just like kind of um like accented their work in
(38:53):
recent years with a couple of sex references. And it's
mostly sad guy rap. So you got a bunch of
dudes crying and then a woman talking about her pussy
and and all of a sudden, it's like Jezebel, like
you know what I mean, Like so it's it's uh,
it's it's like, I don't know why we all of
a sudden like canonized men and how they speak about
(39:16):
things like we're allowed to listen to billionaire male artists
and their capitalist wrap and just be like this is great,
this is a milestone, this is this is what, this
is what you want to you want to get there,
And then another guy talking about being sad and popping
pills and Cardi B can't talk about her breasts, Like
come on now. It's just like, I don't know where
(39:37):
how we got to a point in this society in
the midst of times up and me too and all
of that, and I mean, Grant said LaCour president was
so but we got to this point where anything that
a woman says that bigs herself up is suddenly negative.
(39:58):
It just it blows my mind. And the women who
always take the biggest hit, obviously are are specifically black women,
but women in hip hop because they're the most prominent
in terms of like expression and and and being so
bold and brilliant and it's just it's just it sucks.
I think like hearing that like black women get the
(40:19):
bottom of the totem pole even in hip hop, It's like,
how does this happen? But also, you know what you're
talking about earlier about racism, Like I loved when we
were like do when I was doing my deep dive,
I saw an article that you wrote a few years
ago called how to be a White Girl and not
offend everyone else in the room, And oh yeah, like,
(40:41):
can you share, like share your thoughts on the egg
eas alias Miley Cyrus, the Bad Bobbies of the World,
Baby Bobby's Baby. I think I can only speak about myself, right.
I'm an Italian girl from Jersey. I you know, this
(41:02):
ring light has me looking translucent. I Am not trying
to be anyone but my right. But I also have
a very different upbringing from a lot of people where
you know. I grew up with a mom who you know.
I recently told this story from my childhood that my
family was from Patterson, New Jersey, which is an inner city,
and then um, we had a house in the suburbs
(41:23):
and Hawthorne, but most of my family lived in Patterson.
So I went to school in Patterson, and my family
had a cleaners that I would just spend time by
my grandmother um at the cleaners and I walked. There
was a bodega that was always next that was next story,
and my mom would give me money when I would
stay there on days off, and I'll never forget. I
came home one day and I would buy whatever I could,
(41:43):
Like there was like a word up magazine, like we're
talking ladies, it's ladies. And I came home one day
with an African pendant right like the leather of medallion's right.
I watched a different world I thought I would like.
I was like oh, and I was like I was like,
look mom, and she is like okay. She's like, we're
gonna sit down and I'm going to teach you about Africa.
(42:04):
And I said okay. She's like, because because you can
wear that pendum, but if someone asks you about Africa,
you need to know about Africa. And that was my
introduction to race. I mean, besides the fact that everyone
in my school was black and stuff for me, but
that was my introduction. Like she sat me down and
explained it to me and explained to me that no,
(42:25):
you are not African. If you're showing your respect, you
have to understand why you're being respectful, right, And I
carried that with me through my career because you know,
I was a hip hop kid. I I brot graffiti,
I I was I was part of hip hop for
all intents and purposes. You know, my allowance money I
mailed to the Zulu nation, So how did you find
(42:51):
that address? The back of word of that? And my
cousin was the editor of Word of magazine. When Biggie
said it was all dream, I sed read Word up magazine.
So I had a very my relationship with hip hop,
but also like Black culture in general is very different.
But I also know that I reached a point in
(43:11):
my career in hip hop. We're black women who had
way more experience and deserved way more respect than I did.
When I walked in a room, when I had reached
that threshold, I was getting more respect and I was
being regarded as like, you know, the academic. And then
you have these women who have done like amazing things
and they're being like asked about their lipstick or their
(43:32):
outfit and I and I watched it happen, and I
think when it comes to people like Iggy Azalea and
Miley Cyrus. I do I think that white men get
so many more passes than girls like that. I will
say that I think that like, white men have done
so many crazy things. I can't count the number of
white guys who have used the N word, And then
they go on an apology tour, right, and then Miley
(43:55):
towrqus and it's like, get her all the way off
social media. She's crazy And I understand both, right, and
I think that white people have done plenty to screw
up the relationship between them and black culture. Um. And
I think the problem with like an artist like an Iggy,
(44:16):
you know, is the ability to code switch. And I
think that that's where the biggest problem is. She's actually
hilarious on TikTok, and she's like being herself, not that
version of yeah, like like who who why? Right? Why?
But if she would have come out as herself as
(44:38):
like this like funny, funny person, you know, or even
like Miley, like she's got a little bit of like country,
got a little bit of punk, like I I hate
to think that the opinion is that hip hop will
not respect you unless you walk around like being a cartoon,
(45:00):
which version of yourself, because then you're saying that that's
what you see when you see black artists, So they're
screwing up all around. And for someone like myself, when
I say don't offend everybody else in the room, don't
walk around, is a reflection of anybody but yourself and
how you were raised. And if you were raised poorly,
then I suggest you open some books and talk to
(45:21):
more people. But I'm like those black women scholars, we
need to look at you know, like yeah, like read
Joan Morgan. You know what I'm saying, Like do like
do the work? If if if, if you came from
a place where you don't understand the history and the
culture behind the music that you claim to love, you know,
then just exit the room for a little bit until
(45:42):
you understand it. And I think that that's where the
problem is. I think that a lot of people are
jumping into the room because they're allowed to be, and
then they don't belong there. And I I would hate
to say I belong there, but I do know that,
you know, I would never go in there and not
know what the hell I'm talking about, or not fill
(46:05):
a space that should be occupied by someone of color.
Mm hmm, you know that's that's the other thing. I'm
not here to fill someone's space. I wrote. I wrote
God Saved the Queens because after forty years, somebody had to.
And I love women in hip hop and I love
hip hop. And I asked all of my black friends,
and that's not some like some of my best friends
(46:26):
are black. Thing. I literally asked my my black female
author friends, you should write a book on women in
hip hop and they were like, no, you should write
a book on So I did. I I finally did,
and I'm proud that I was able to do it.
But why did it take forty years? Do you have
any up and coming artists that you want to give
(46:47):
some shine to? You know? I? Um, I've been in
the vacuum of writing my Alia book and so tell
us everything, hell us, so baby girl better known as Aliyah,
it's um. You know the story of Aliyah that's coming
out August, eight days before they of her past. Yeah,
(47:12):
So I've been in an Alia vacuum like I've been. Really,
what happened with the plane? Why? I'll get you a
copy of the book. I'm not, I'm not. I'm not
allowed to reveal. I will tell you this, Um. I
went through sealed documents, court cases, um reports, and I
(47:38):
hope that this gives some closure. But I also hope
that everyone sees Aliyah. That's something that we've never been
able to see her as, which is a survivor. And
UM so I think that you know, we don't give
her that credit because what she endured post R Kelly,
during R Kelly, um and after, you know, we never
(48:01):
we never actually honored her strength in that and that's
a part of the book. But also the impact. I mean,
people like thirteen year olds are listening to Alia right yeah,
with no streaming music in sight. So yes, I was.
I was very much during this whole pandemic. Um caught
up in just listening to Aliyah. UM gladly. But if
(48:25):
I'm talking about new artists that I love in terms
of women in hip hop, I love Flow Milly. This
episode with her, yeah, well the one with baby um
little Baby's eate I am healthy, Yeah, I am. I
played that in the morning. Adina Howard's Freak Like Me
(48:47):
used to be my like AmpUp for the morning. Now
it's Flowmilly. I mean, it's full of affirmations in that song.
So she's just I I adore her. Um. I was
able to do her feature and double sell the last
issue along with Sweetie, who I love. We're just talking
about her. We listened to best Friend with Dojo. Yeah,
(49:09):
I love Sweetie, I love Flow Millie. I. Um, I
love the City Girls. I mean they teach me. They
just teach you how to get your bag, Like I like,
I feel like I have to play City Girls every
time like a check clears. There are some artists like
oh my gosh, Tierra Whack. Yes, she's been doing these
(49:31):
Instagram freestyle They've been good. Yeah, Like I love her.
I mean, I love Meg, I mean with all my heart.
I think rock is really dope. There's just a lot
of talent happening right now that um. I think it's
just it's different from from where we were even five
(49:55):
years ago. Kathy, I feel like my vision of what
right a hip hop writer is is like Sonal Lathan
in Brown Sugar, What are the craziest things that like
an artist has ever done? To an interview with you? Wow? Um,
how much time do you a lot? So I was
reviewing Joe Budden's album. He may not remember this, but
(50:18):
I was at a Barnes and Noble and he came
with a discmand with the CD was the headphone. What
was that song? It might have been his first project
or his second one. And he came with the CD
in the headphones and he like, we were at a
(50:41):
table at a cafe at the cafe in Barnes and Noble,
the Starbucks there, and he hands me like a coffee
and the disc command and he puts the headphones on
me and he sits like this and I'm you know,
looking right at me. Yeah, did you try to act
overly enthusiastic? So there's nothing worse than men at album
(51:06):
listening sessions, Like guys get really extra and and nobody cares.
And it's actually worse nowadays. But that was a cool
experience because you don't really get an artist coming to
like sit in front of you and like stare at
you while you're listening to their album. Your local Barnes
and Noble, My local Barnes and Noble. I I've been
(51:26):
in situations where an artist will like, I'll be leaving. Um,
I was leaving a listening session and the artists got
there late, and he really wanted me to cover the album.
So he's like, oh, I'll just write you down the
elevator and we got to the middle four and he
hit the emergency and he's like, now listen, No, I'm
not I'm not letting you. I'm not I'm not moving
(51:50):
this elevator until you come back up and listen to
the rest of the album. And I'm like, I'm like,
I already heard the album. He's like, nope, but you
have to hear, like me go into detail about like
the intricacies, and I'm just like, yeah, yeah, were Why
do men feel like they can just do stuff like
that and tell you what to do, how to do
(52:11):
your job? Bye? Boy? Did you go back? Did you?
Or I mean that I have a chance, So I
she was kidding. I mean I've had worse situations, like
as a woman like that. You know, they pal in
comparison to what other colleagues have gone through. But I've
been in situations where I've interrogued an artist and he's
(52:33):
like put his hand between my legs, tried stuff like that. Yeah,
And that's I feel like the sort of like rampant
like we can just like take women sometimes that I
feel like male rappers will it's like an entitlement to
our bodies and then they get mad when we claim
(52:53):
our own bodies. Well, and you know this generation, and
I have to give them how much credit? They speak
up right, and they're not afraid. We didn't have Twitter
to go on Twitter and say hey, I was just
fired from my job because I said I I felt uncomfortable.
I don't. We didn't have that luxury. So what we
(53:15):
had was, well, your boss might get mad at you,
or the label might not ask you for anything again.
And if they do that, then you're not going to
be called to do this. And if you're not called
to do this, you're not going to be doing that.
So we were always we were told it was to
have a thick skin, right, That's what it was told, like,
you have to develop a thick skin. And I don't
think that. I think that we were part of a generation,
(53:38):
you know, in the in the nineties and two thousand,
early two thousands, where we were made to feel that
the there was like a long spectrum from kindness and
criminal right, So we we came from you know things
(53:59):
now that we're just our every day would never ever
ever fly now ever. And I have to give the
new women, um in hip hop and any real any journalism,
any industry and UM anywhere really um, but I have
to give them credit because they're speaking up. We were
(54:21):
we were like kind of like hushed into submission. And
there are some good guys like and I'll say his
name because I think he was just amazing, Um, Fetty
wap right. We're both from Patterson, So Fetty I did.
I did a feature with him for Vice, and then
I went and I did one for Maxim shortly thereafter,
(54:42):
and Fetti asked me to come to his apartment to
do the interview. And because you know, I had already
known him, and I felt fine, So I guess to
the apartment, Like seven dudes show up and I was like, oh, Kathy,
fifteen years and you haven't learned your lesson. But Fetny
(55:04):
was like, hey, guys, could just go in the other room.
I'm trying to talk to Cathy here, and like he
just sat with me and like the Jews were smoking
and he kept blowing the smoke aways, like what are
you doing? Like she like she obviously doesn't smoke. And
I was like, you know, we have to honor the
good guys, like we have to you know. Um. I
had to interview DJ Khaled once in a dressing room
and they were like twenty dudes in the dressing room
(55:24):
and Kaled like I walked in with the recorder and
Kaled looks at me and he grabs me by the
arm and he walks me out. He's like, that is
no place for you. He's like, let's go do the
interview over here. So there there are some good guys.
I don't want to say that there aren't, because I've
encountered more solid guys in this Industry's good to hear,
but there there have been situations where I'm like, what
(55:47):
are you doing? Like why are you? Why are you here?
And you know, sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't.
So but um, yeah, Barnes, Barnes and Noble man, Um,
this is great. Yeah, yeah, thanks for talking to it
(56:08):
seriously much thanks. I'm sorry I talked a lot. I'm
like ramped up on caffeine's. I'm usually sitting in my
bed watching the office right now. That was cool, y'all,
so informative, all those jams. Right, Everyone should go out
and get Kathy's book. God Save the Queen's. Yes, it's
(56:31):
definitely on my shelf, and y'all know why, because if
it's up, then it's up. Then it's up, then it's good.
But should we give them a taste of us? How
we sail, how we wrap? Ye? Stay ready, I don't
know if they're ready for this as murder. Stay ready
on the track or you got to beat the whole time?
(56:52):
You got it? Who get pass it up? It's your turn.
Here I go. My name is Brown, I'm in down.
I'm about to go to your town. Yeah Brown, y'all,
(57:15):
I can only beatbox for a bit. Now it's hard
getting tired. Let me drop, put me back, put a
native stepping in on the track. I'm going to leg
it down like I gotta smack your ass. We mess
(57:36):
because I'm U had a native bit there. I just
started using patriarchy and I got so quick, man, that's
(58:00):
IM proud for you folks. Just comes out a okay,
I'll help you out. Where is it? Yeah my god,
I got you? Okay a killer. Don't play right around
(58:24):
the block. Come get your body. Get him? Oh my god,
Uh steal your man? And I ain't said about it.
Watch out. That looks like a silk bunnet. Not The
(58:44):
beat was the perfect mom. She was in the pocket.
I was mixed. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The pocket of
the beat. Yeah, I don't realize that it's hard because
there's a delay. Someone's doing a beat delay. Well, here
it goes. Actually your church, Ash Murder says, this time
(59:14):
forward break, so we're about to get off no steak.
That was really perfect and cohesive. Wow. We have gotten
our fair share of hip hop today and I am
that's um. Anyway, we appreciate you guys tuning in. Please
(59:40):
remember to subscribe, and if you want to show us love,
you can rate and review this podcast and come. Keep
you with us on social at Obama's Other Daughters, on
Instagram at O D Improv on Twitter and on Facebook
at Obama's Other Daughters. If you need some advice or
you know someone who does need some advice, send your
(01:00:00):
letters to us at O O D Podcast at gmion
dot com. We'll see you guys next week and may
bye You Down is a production of Shawndland Audio and
partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shawndland Audio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
(01:00:22):
you listen to your favorite shows. M
Welcome to You Down, a production of Shonda Land Audio
and partnership with I Heart Radio. It's a beautiful thing
to see the way that women, that black women specifically
are like pushing back and using their voices and their
platforms to tell honest, authentic stories about what our lives
are like in an empowered way, and it empowers others.
(00:24):
What's Up, everybody and Welcome back to You Down a
podcast wherefore funny honeys come together and talk about what's
going on in the culture. I'm Ashley Holstin, I'm Mommy
a Oh, I'm Yasmin Money Watkins, and I'm shacaragen Ape.
But collectively, together as a unit, we are known as
(00:44):
Obama's other Daughter. You down with O O D? Yeah?
You know me get fresh? And today we're asking are
you down with? Female rappers? Was the first year that
(01:05):
female rappers really dominated the charts. I mean they really
did it, y'all. It started with Doja Cat Nick Minaj
taking a top spot and becoming the first two female
rappers to reach number one with Say so Um and
then All while Megan The Stallions Savage contest was dare
(01:28):
I say, more viral than covid. Oh okay, it was bad.
I just said it was more viral than Okay, okay, alright, alright.
Those hits were followed by Boots, Buckets and a Mop
and the sexually positive hit Whop featuring Queen Cardi B
(01:48):
and Queen Megan. But even with all this progress, we
can't ignore the patriarchy, y'all, and the Snoop Doggs of
it all, because Snoop dog did have something saying. And
I'm excited to talk about this, but before we do,
I have a very important question for you ladies. If
you were a rapper, what would your rap name? Oh?
(02:09):
When I was in high school, I had a rap name.
It was ash Murder. It was my my Space name Murder.
She wrote, m hm, you know that could be here.
(02:31):
What about your dog? I heard it was supposed to
be like you're the street you grew up on, plus
your first pets name, so it was like hash Brown
Carlton Square Drive. Isn't that your poor name? Is it name? Alright?
I feel like you might get your poor name change.
(02:54):
Where's the hash Brown from? Oh? That was my first dog,
hash Brown. He was a cocker Spaniel that wash brown
colored very lovable dog r I p actually, Jasmine, that's
perfect for you. Yeah, what's up? It's hash Brown on
the Mike h Young, Hash Brown Man. What's yours? So
(03:27):
if I go from Yasmine's pool, it would be Hazel
Sugar Spice because my first pet was Hamsters, sugar and spice.
But I antund like a cop name. I was gonna
go with Shaquilla, my CrossFit name. Shaquill A good one
you can drink my team Murder Mountain View Drive hash
(03:54):
Brown with the murders and killers caught some View Drive
sound like a place as gated. I don't all right,
MOMMYA what's your name? I would want it to be
something like, you know, like Yams yeah, or like something
like the Dead of Nators, like something like really unassuming
(04:17):
and then you're like, it's me who pops up? Alright,
So we got bombs, we got killers, we got murderers
and the hash brand right. Actually, yah, I'm ready to
talk about what I've been hearing. It's a female rap
for Renaissance and I'm here for it. And today's episode
(04:38):
we are going to discuss the queens who got us here,
like missy Elliott, m Sea Light and Lil Kim to
the current women topping the charts we all know and
the comer uppers who exist across the spectrums of gender
and sexual orientation. And a little bit later, we're inviting
critically acclaimed journalists and author Kathy yander Lee on the show.
Kathy has been heavily immersed in this w world and
(05:00):
wrote an mp ARE Best book of the Year, God
Saved the Queen's The Essential History of Women in Hip Hop,
And like Grammy winner Meg the Stallion said, us, women
have always been talented, but it was a thing where
there could only be one woman rapper at a time.
That's why I was really excited that a lot of
women got their shine this year. So was I Mac.
(05:23):
But before we jump into it, a quick break. Welcome back, guys.
Let's get into it. What are your thoughts on women
dominating the charts right now? Oh? Love it? Here for it?
(05:43):
Do more of it, ladies, Yes, keep going, keep going. Um, yeah,
some of us do. Dad well, whether it's rhythmic or not. Yeah,
don't you be so hard on yourself. You're dancing is
still dancing, I think ye. I saw those shoulders just
(06:06):
butter Yes, and you don't have to dance on and beat.
I mean, you're at home in COVID, nobody's watching. But
when I see Cardi and Meg, especially dancing, it does
make me feel like I need to take a class.
A matter of fact, I didn't start taking its work class. Yeah,
(06:27):
because they really they really make like the lyrics make
me feel like I'm sexually empowered, I'm a goddess. And
then I'm looking in the mirror when I'm dancing like
them and it's not the same, and you think you're
doing the exact same thing too. You're like, but I
appreciate the words because they hyping me up. That Meg
(06:48):
has bionic knees. She must, Yeah, yeah, had those knees
at one point. And then we got old. I did
try to learn whop the choreography at the end, and
I won't say my my version of it was a
whop um or was it a womp? You know what
(07:14):
I did, though, I scuffed by knee on my dag
or carpet a fool, Yeah, but it was worth it.
That's why you shouldn't dance like that when you're over
thirty without without means. But yeah, I'm excited that women
are on the charts and it's about dag on time.
I feel like the shift has happened over the past
(07:36):
few years, and Cardi does have a lot to do
with it, um in the mainstream sense, but I do
feel like it's also been a long time coming. Yeah,
I definitely agree, like we've always had one, which is
exactly what in the quote that you read. Like, I
can remember growing up there's always one woman at least
(07:56):
who was on the charts, but if there were two,
it wasn't somebody on the same level or like with
the same exposure. Um as like you if you would
compare how Cardi and Megan are now like two people
who have really transcended and broken ceilings. Um So I
think it's yeah, all for it. We need more people
(08:18):
in more different types of rap, like we shouldn't just
be relegated to one thing. But I also think that
has to do with what the mainstream audience wants from
a female rapper, which I would love to hear your
thoughts on that. And I think there's this like culture
of like pitting women against each other that like I
(08:39):
don't know if that fully served us, I mean, or rather,
competition is great and and fun, but I feel like
now it's like a lot of lifting each other up,
like let's collab, let's like create stuff together. Um, and
I would love to see more of that. Like, yeah,
I feel like I have a few opinions on that,
because I do feel like that happened with Nikki because
(09:01):
she dominated the charts. It's the only female rapper for
several years, and then, um, she was expected to be
like inviting to these other women, which I think. I
love that Cardi was, and I love that Cardi did,
but I mean, the baby got famous this year and
I ain't seen him putting no men on. So many
other male rappers get famous and don't put nobody else on,
(09:21):
But it's up to women to have to put each
other on, because you know, it's such a male dominated space,
and you even see how it's not fair in that sense,
like because Nikki has such a bad rep because she
didn't put on other women. But I'm also like that
wasn't necessarily Nikki's job. I think it's awesome that Cardi
did it, and I'm excited that other women are doing
it and I love to see it, but other men
(09:44):
don't do that. But it was all on her to
do that, and then you know, the whole error just
keeps pushing and moving forward, and she was the only
one doing kind of holding it down for almost ten years.
She came out in two thousand eight with Fitty Bitty Piggy.
I loved Itty Bitty Piggy. Yeah, I mean that was
like her intro intro. It that was two thousand and eight,
(10:04):
and then she sort of slowed down by what nineteen
and Cardi blew up in So it was a solid
amount of years where Dead Loaf popped up and Hezalia
popped up? Um, who else? Fur he wanna? Why was that?
(10:25):
Kanye wannam for rapid? Yes? What her computer? Right now?
Let me find this song all of the Lights? Remember
I thought I lost my mom? Remember that song? So
that mackamore, Yes, okay, I mean it's not a new
(10:49):
thing that the Grammys slight women people of color. You
know a lot of people are realizing that they probably
just shouldn't be put in stock into what the Grammys
are even gonna do, because it's not going to honor
what the people even agree with that is the best.
But it sucks that winning a Grammy gets you opportunity,
(11:12):
you know, yeah. I mean even just the disrespect of
putting Cardi b Nicki Minaj, and Bad Baby in the
same category. Bad Baby, Yes, I don't listen to Bad Baby.
I only know is she high bitch? That's that song.
I'm sorry, but she is a whole thing that's really
(11:36):
disturbing on several levels. Like I'm like, blink if you
need help. But she has a great produced her Yeah,
where are her parents? Her mom is right there, right
there on the mors getting yet Yeah, I didn't see
the whole more clip. I thought her mom was there
to get help. Not her mom was there to get
(11:58):
help parenting at parents waiting bland you know, okay, white
work out. I mean it gave her a huge platform
story because her video went viral. So why don't you
like that Bad Baby and Nikki and Cardi would be
in the same category. It just feels like gentrification, Like
(12:21):
it just feels very appropriative, and it particularly sucks when
like black women have been doing it for so long
and continue to do it, and white women are the
ones that like acknowledge and reap the benefits. Like that
ship is sick to me. I guess mine is also
more so, I feel like Nikki never got her flowers,
(12:42):
like on a real level. And then Cardi came up,
which in Cardi got her flowers immediately because we all
love her and there's no hate between either one of
them for me. And then bad Baby, who doesn't even
have a full album and it's in a category for
a song for for best female rapper, and I just
don't feel like she's earned it. The beats are good,
(13:02):
but she's not a great rapper. She's okay. She just
repeats acts a great rap palent of bad Baby news.
Not it's not on any level even close. I shouted
out her producer because yeah, and I can bop my
head to it all day, but it's not like I'm
the lyrics are doing anything outside of what you would
(13:24):
expect the fourteen year old rapper to do, right, Yeah,
So how do you guys feel about? Like this is
a huge thing to like male rappers be talking about
all I was, I forgot, I forgot, but talk about
(13:49):
her hands or her whop? Oh the world is remember
the summer, like the outrage over Whopped And I didn't
see the video and then when I watched it, I
was like, where's the one they were talking about Like,
I get that they were in swimsuits, working and shaking,
but okay, it's not like they were showing the inside
of their It's not about what they're showing. It's about
(14:11):
what they're talking about and the audacity they would have
to dare be so sexual. You know, people don't like
women who can own their sexuality because sexuality is power,
and I think especially men, the patriarchy, the system in
general is afraid of what women will do when they
(14:34):
can own their sexuality and that power because they know
what we can do, they know what we're capable of,
which is running the world. A lot of them is
like they just couldn't handle it, Like, yeah, I would
know what to do with that if that came out way,
So I gotta hate it, yep, Like I didn't. I
didn't know how to use Snapchat for long, so I
was like, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna hate Snapchat.
(14:56):
Did you ever learn it? Nope? I don't. I don't
need Snapchat. I don't hate it an you know, it's
more of a joke, But I think that that's what
people do when they don't understand things, you decide to
hate it. Yeah, I agree. With it. I was gonna
say something that's not funny, but I was. Let's say.
The difference is men will decide to hurt it, maybe
kill it. Ak men will hurt women because they can't
(15:20):
control women. But it's a beautiful thing to see the
way that women, that black women specifically are like pushing
back and using their voices and their platforms to tell honest,
authentic stories about what our lives are like in an
empowered way, and it empowers others. I don't know what
City girls are telling about. No authentic? Are you kidding me? Okay, okay, okay,
(15:45):
I don't know about them. No, I'm talking to say
in general saying, I'm saying the authenticity of uh, what's that?
We're the bag at If y'all watch We're the bag
at video. JT scams a credit card. That is what
she went to prison four if you're not sticking music video,
which she went to jail four for over a year
(16:06):
stealing Free j T. Free j T. She didn't know.
I feel like it's really interesting though, that, like, given
that that's her true life experience that she's documenting through
this art form that's wrapped and some little something in
Minnesota or Wisconsin, is listening to that, hearing the end,
(16:28):
you know, indulging in that kind of like making a
caricature of somebody else's reality. And that's where I feel
like it gets like cloudy for me of where do
I draw the line of what what people put out there? Like,
I think I love city girls. I love everything they do.
It's just like the people who listen and buy the
(16:49):
albums the most are like, yeah, everyone's not going to
be like discerning and thoughtful and be like, Okay, I
shouldn't actually go out and scamper, you know. So I
agree with you, Mama, Mama. I agree with you, mommyya
that sometimes I worry about the message, the caricature, yeah,
(17:10):
and the character duration of that message. People out in
the world trying to be the baddest bitch with scamming niggas,
and I got to you know, yeah, it's okay to
be a regular Scamming is not nice. I don't think
to me, not cool. Robbing like I was dropping is
(17:32):
like cool. Sorry, I get it, I'll get it out. No.
I just like I also want to highlight some of
like I don't know, up and coming artists though that
don't always adhere to like I feel like hip hop
there's room for like a lot of different voices. Who
are some of you guys as like up and coming
artists You're like, I love her message, or oh, I'm
(17:55):
gonna throw in Missy Elliott who's been here and has
held down the flour and has I've been killing you know,
it's so you know, you know, what's so interesting is
like I was looking up a think piece on Missy
Elliott and about like how she's been here. She did
have that low, low but overall kind of consistent, but
like never the most talked about, especially amongst the hip
(18:18):
hop community, which is interesting because I'm like, well, she's
definitely put her steak in it, but I don't think
men like the men run hip hop in a way
where the women who are more sexual have been able
to win or to be more talked about. But that
doesn't take away from anything Missy has done, and she has,
(18:40):
you know, some people are given her flowers. I just
think it's I don't know, it's so interesting because her
career has lasted and been more consistent than the men
that she came up you know, definitely like did he
Mace or like shout out to Mace, we love you,
but my Mace he's a pastor now was a pastor,
(19:04):
and then he came back. Ye, welcome back. He had
another welcome no no, no, no, welcome back past Yeah.
When he was welcome back, that was pastor Mace. Yes, yes,
he got back in the world and then he got
back correct with the old. I love um Tira wack. Yeah,
(19:26):
she has some really groovy jamsy jobs. I mean, I
feel like I don't seek out a lot of rap
music in general, but I do enjoy what Kira gives me.
(19:51):
I'll never forget that. I know. Before Megan popped, I
was like, y'all we like watch videos for hours, didn't
we because I remember when they came. When they finally popped,
I was like, oh, I've been when Mulatto popped. You
were like, oh, I've been listening to Relay. I didn't
(20:13):
even know Mulatto popped. Is she not an up and
comer because I'm still up and coming. But she's definitely
like I mean, she has a song with Gucci Mai. Yeah,
I see her. I've seen her wigs on upgrades. You
always know when about to sky rocket. Um no, Names
song thirty three that came out this summer. It was
(20:36):
the first time I heard Abolish the Police in a
song that like, I put it on repeat, like for
an hour straight, made a music video for it, Escape visual, Like.
I loved that song, and I'm like, what No Name
is doing. I'm like, yes, um, Chica, she's so bomb
and i'd soul. I also hell a funk with like
(20:59):
she was like a singer as well, though she likes
sings and his hip hop, but she was on that
NPR list of like hell yeah like and I was
just like, yes, I'm so happy that she's getting I
loved her life and I loved her um. She had
a very acoustic, beautiful melody to her voice. I'm not
a singer, but I like Tashi sound. It's it's very
(21:22):
much like it's a vine. But like they're even like
l a folks like ilk Mill that like are just
it's you love to see it. You're like, shine on,
shine on. Why do you think those rappers that you
just mentioned, some of them that are more nuanced, they
don't get the shine or the platform. I don't know
(21:44):
if it's the labels they're signed to or just that
they're not talking about the things that they want a
female rapper on the top one hundred to talk about.
I think it's also a mix of UM. I mean,
the b and the lyrics matter. But when I think
of even male rappers and what's popular, I mean six
(22:08):
knits on charts and I'm like, what is he like
actual skill? I mean there's a lot of mumble rap
that hits the charts, or like everybody listening to the
same thing. UM, I don't know. I feel like there's
a lot of pop rap that hits the charts, but
that doesn't mean that there's not like a huge audience
(22:29):
of people. I mean, when you think of that Tyler,
the creator UM Music Festival, I want to tell that's
so bad. It looked so popping. But I do feel
like that's where a lot of these artists would showcased
and there's a huge audience for them, a people who
would show up excited. UM. But it's not really mainstream.
(22:50):
But even if you think of you know, a Frank Ocean,
I mean, how many number ones has he had? Has
he had one? We love him, but I also feel
like he doesn't care. It's like y'all gonna get you
think you're gonna get when you get it. Yeah, exactly
exactly for me. I think it's rare to see like
queer artists in the spotlight, and like folks like Ivy
(23:13):
Soul are like I'm a sing about loving women and like,
not everybody loves that ship because they're like, well that
doesn't include me. So I have no real place to
go aside from deep side. This is the world we
live in. I forgot about Young Mam. I just I
(23:34):
think it's young in May. Um, I'm gonna call young Mam.
So I heard her. I was watching a TikTok the
other day and I was like, what is this song?
This like voice is so buttery? Um, And it was
young a young Mom. Did you see that she directed
a port Yes, I've seen her poor it's not bad.
(23:59):
Wait what I missed this? She directs porn. Now she
at least place her music in it. I don't know
if that's the case, but I agree with young Mom
that the porn industry is disgusting and if we're going
to have people doing porn, let's give them good. We're
going to have people watching porn, they're better. They're definitely
(24:21):
like a little less cheesy. The people are more pocs,
different body types, but it's still, you know, very much
young m a. Her porn is is trying to be elevated,
but you know she's still very much Yeah. No, it's
(24:47):
well because there's artist porn, there's like very feminist porn
that is too feminists for me. Um, and then some
of it's too feminists for me too, and I'm like,
I'm trying. I'm down. I'm down. It's just my girl.
He's gonna do a blurred soft screen like, why y'all
moving so slow? I don't know. This is not younger.
(25:09):
We should have younger man on the podcast, were really younger?
May you trying to know? I feel like she'd scoop
all four of us. She ain't scooping me up. You
wouldn't get scoop. She would do nothing for you, girl,
But I type by then she's not pretty. I like
(25:29):
a pretty stud. But yeah, she's a little rough of me.
I'm I think if you saw you might like it.
And she gives real like if you if you watch them,
if you're insimidating anything, I don't know what you know?
(25:50):
Oh my god, Sure introduce you to something sash things
I don't know if I need. When we come back,
we're inviting hip hop journalists Kathy Yandeley on the show
to dig in even deeper into the female rap renaissance.
(26:17):
Welcome back everyone, Let's get into it with our special
guest today. Kathy Yandeley is a critically acclaimed journalist and author.
She has written for Vibe, The Source, x x L,
The Village Voice, Rolling Stone, Billboard Magazine, Vice Magazine, and
many other publications. I know I think you did all.
(26:44):
I tried to run the gamut. It's been twenty years,
to be fair, so you know, I'm not exactly laughing
people at that point. After twenty years, I should have
hit more than three publications. But yeah, you know. But
we also know that you held at tatorial positions at
top hip hop and urban websites, including All hip Hop
dot Com, hip Hop, d X dot Com, and BT
(27:08):
dot Com. Yonda Li is an alumna in Residence of
Music Business at New York University and has appeared across
the media on television, radio, and panels discussing hip hop
and gender. Today, she will be helping us break down
the good, the bad, and the ugly of being a
woman in hip hop. Thank you so much for joining us. Kathy,
(27:31):
thank you so much. So let's start out. What are
your thoughts on the way women are dominating and to
be frank being included in the charts right now, UM
given you you being able to watch this basically from
its inception to where we are now, I think it's amazing.
(27:52):
I think that we're inching towards that point where it
will no longer be female rappers and just rappers at
that point. So I think that that's where we're getting,
hopefully very soon. And I think that um, over the
last like three years, I think that made that shift
(28:15):
was really happening. So I love it. But I also
love how even like our legends are getting their flowers,
like Rup and Chantey. My friend just texted me that
Lauren Hill became the first female rapper to go diamond,
So yeah, and I think that that's like all of
(28:36):
these milestones and you know, Missy Elliott finally getting the
admission that she deserves. I think that there's just a
lot that has been happening all at once. So it
feels like hip hop has like a goldfish memory, right,
so like they'll forget what happened as it pertains to women, right,
so after like five minutes, it's like, wait what. And
(28:57):
I think that that happened a lot when it's hot
when you talk about covering women in hip hop, because
it always was just like ladies first, andy love, like
no disrespect. Obviously they're amazing legends, but there was there's
no look toward the future, and now like there's no choice.
(29:20):
I mean, how do you think we've we've gotten to
this place and and why do you think it's taken
so long for these women to get their come up
in so a couple of days ago on my Instagram,
I put up the picture of Little Kim squatting classic Yeah.
I captioned it, um little Kim squatted so other female
(29:41):
rappers could stand a chance. I'd like to say that
it was the groundwork that Kim Laid and Lauren and
you know all of those artists in the mid nineties
carried over to Nikki's tenure rain and then to get
to this point, I think what Kim and Lauren did, specifically,
(30:04):
like by my pal Kim well, Little Kim and Laura
Hill did was they provided two very stark contrasts of
the type of music and art that women can make
in hip hop, and what that allowed for was to
not only hit the charts, but make it so mainstream
(30:25):
that you didn't really you latched onto it from from
all walks of life. And I think that by the
time we got to Nicki Minaj, who arguably is the
combination of the two, right, Nikki showed what the next
level could look like. Because now Nikki is a part
of what I'd like to call the billionaire generation of
(30:45):
hip hop? Can you define that? What do you mean
by that? So I think, you know, in the nineties,
the the kind of the goal post was a millionaire,
you know. So once we get into this era, right
the twenty well, you know, for Nikki was like the
twenties ends into the twenties, hip hop artists are are
pushing billionaires like that's the goal post. So for you know,
(31:07):
Nikki specifically, at that point in time, Nikki provided what
would be the next level for women in hip hop
when when she arrived on the scene. So now we're
at the point of like Cardi B and Megan the Stallion,
Rego Nasty Tara, Wax City Girls, everyone, Right, we're at
this point now where not only have through the course
(31:29):
of these twenties something years, proven that women are profitable,
we're also showing that they're diverse and allowing that, you know,
you can't pigeonhole like one artist, and I think it's
making it a lot harder to have that conversation of
there can only be one. So that's what I think,
you know, and Nicky was the only one for a
(31:50):
good ten years, but I think because of that, she
opened doors for so many other artists. But you know,
obviously have to give credits to the ones who came
before her, because we're the ones who laid that groundwork.
And that's a systemic issue, right, Like why was Nikki
the only one for ten years? You kind of just
gave a you know, the history behind it. But from
(32:11):
your perspective, why did that happen? I think there's a
lot of factors that came into play. I think around
when Napster started, um hip hop took the biggest hit
we had, like DJ Drama who was doing everything, you know,
the mix tapes, and you know, hip hop was one
of the only genres that found a way. They found
(32:31):
a way, and also hip hop as a whole is
built on the idea of bootlegging right handing out mix tapes.
That's how that's how the promotional vehicle went. So Napster
really wasn't a hit specifically to hip hop, but it
was a hit to the record labels who were trying
to make money off hip hop. So hip hop artists
were thriving by reputation and they were doing their things
(32:52):
on the live circuit. But what label started to do
was they put a cap on how women could tour.
They put a cap on how much it would cost
you a music video, all of those things. In my book,
I talked to Trina and Trina was told she was
too expensive to tour. Yeah, they said, well you're you're
(33:16):
gonna They were like, you need makeup and hair, and
she's like, I'll do my own Harold and my own makeup.
And they're like, and what dudes come on with, you know,
grace wet pants? And they're fine, Um, okay, they are fine,
but they're fine. But I also think it, let's be
very obvious, it's it's how the machine attacks black women.
(33:40):
So I think that that first and foremost has something
to do with it too. The idea of someone not
named Janet Jackson being a pop star or someone not
named Whitney Houston being a pop star. I feel like
everyone collectively thought Lauren Hill let them down, so tr
so you're now dealing with racism, sexism, trust issues, financial,
(34:05):
whatever's right. And I think by the time Nikki came,
it took labels ten years to figure out that she
was consistent. She was going to keep doing it with
or without them, right, and they all of a sudden
were like, let's jump in. And I think that's where
(34:25):
you have like Cardi b who comes in. And they
tried it right, They tried, Oh, Nikki, be careful, cardis here.
They tried. But I think, you know, in a couple
of shoes were thrown at the met gala. I mean
it happens. What hey, shoes usually aren't thrown unis there's
a reason. Yeah, sometimes my lubatan ends up in my
(34:48):
hand and I just don't know where to put it right,
so I just you just aim. But I think after
that all went down, and after the sensationalizing of Nicky
and Cardi, everybody kind of just lowered their swords and
I was like, all right, let's just all make money,
because that's that At the end of the day. Now,
that's what it is. And I'm not saying it's driven
(35:08):
by capitalism, but it's like, now you can't get in
the way of my bag, and now we have so
many people. I mean, and I don't want to say
that for Nikki's ten years, we didn't have other artists
like we had Trino, we had Rhapsody, right, we had
Missy for a bit, and I think during that time
period Eve was kind of but because I can't remember,
(35:33):
Tambourine was not. It was before Nikki, But I think
that Nikki was the most prominent, right and and um consistent. Yes,
I was gonna say. I feel like there's also with
the rise of how social media is used, it was undeniable.
There were gonna be too many people coming out of
the woodworks, you know, so many females have come out
(35:56):
that we're like, you gotta give him a chance. There's
a million people instagram rocking with them. Um, So I
feel like that helped to share some of the light. Yeah,
artists are getting signed through social media, you know. Yeah, Kathy,
what do you think about what some would call a
double standard when it comes to the overt sexuality from
(36:19):
male rappers versus you know, the pushback female rappers get
for doing similar things. I can't tell you how many
times over the last six months I've sat on panels
and the first thing and I'm talking female panels right
about women's empowerment, and I'm asked how I feel about
(36:41):
stripper wrap. That was the thing, that's just what they
want it. I was like, wow, because I want to
say that the double standard was part of the patriarchy,
but that isn't. I would be so incorrect to say it, because, um,
(37:05):
I'm hearing more of the judgment come from women, to
be really honest, so the double standard. But just to
throw in, women are just as brainwashed by the patriarchy
as a lot of men, you know what I mean,
that's true at their core. The level of hate that
has been just produced by the misogyny in this world
(37:28):
that even women carry around, I mean, from hating the bodies,
their own bodies and their own that's why you can
sell us all these products and get us, you know,
to change ourselves. But again I feel like and and
and once again I feel it boils down to race,
because we're at a point where you can have pop
(37:48):
stars who are promoting sex positivity. Right, Um, that phrase
wouldn't have would have never been allowed for Little Kim
or Foxy Brown. Want to be very honest, and I'm
never allowed for for Nicki Minaj. You know, it certainly
isn't allowed for Lizzo. So I think that I think
that that has a lot to do with it, um
(38:09):
and how the double standard is kind of enforced. And
I think like the thing that pushed everyone over the
edge was what oh yeah, And I honestly I thought
it was gonna be spreading the way people were talking
about it before I saw it, and I said, that's
an HBCUM dance team routine or you know, like that's
not anything out of this world that they were doing
(38:32):
the cry baby because they have big but like, what
what's everyone up in arms about? Yeah? And I think
the other I don't want to call it a problem,
but I think the other trend, right is a lot
of your more prominent male hip hop artists have now
just like kind of um like accented their work in
(38:53):
recent years with a couple of sex references. And it's
mostly sad guy rap. So you got a bunch of
dudes crying and then a woman talking about her pussy
and and all of a sudden, it's like Jezebel, like
you know what I mean, Like so it's it's uh,
it's it's like, I don't know why we all of
a sudden like canonized men and how they speak about
(39:16):
things like we're allowed to listen to billionaire male artists
and their capitalist wrap and just be like this is great,
this is a milestone, this is this is what, this
is what you want to you want to get there,
And then another guy talking about being sad and popping
pills and Cardi B can't talk about her breasts, Like
come on now. It's just like, I don't know where
(39:37):
how we got to a point in this society in
the midst of times up and me too and all
of that, and I mean, Grant said LaCour president was
so but we got to this point where anything that
a woman says that bigs herself up is suddenly negative.
(39:58):
It just it blows my mind. And the women who
always take the biggest hit, obviously are are specifically black women,
but women in hip hop because they're the most prominent
in terms of like expression and and and being so
bold and brilliant and it's just it's just it sucks.
I think like hearing that like black women get the
(40:19):
bottom of the totem pole even in hip hop, It's like,
how does this happen? But also, you know what you're
talking about earlier about racism, Like I loved when we
were like do when I was doing my deep dive,
I saw an article that you wrote a few years
ago called how to be a White Girl and not
offend everyone else in the room, And oh yeah, like,
(40:41):
can you share, like share your thoughts on the egg
eas alias Miley Cyrus, the Bad Bobbies of the World,
Baby Bobby's Baby. I think I can only speak about myself, right.
I'm an Italian girl from Jersey. I you know, this
(41:02):
ring light has me looking translucent. I Am not trying
to be anyone but my right. But I also have
a very different upbringing from a lot of people where
you know. I grew up with a mom who you know.
I recently told this story from my childhood that my
family was from Patterson, New Jersey, which is an inner city,
and then um, we had a house in the suburbs
(41:23):
and Hawthorne, but most of my family lived in Patterson.
So I went to school in Patterson, and my family
had a cleaners that I would just spend time by
my grandmother um at the cleaners and I walked. There
was a bodega that was always next that was next story,
and my mom would give me money when I would
stay there on days off, and I'll never forget. I
came home one day and I would buy whatever I could,
(41:43):
Like there was like a word up magazine, like we're
talking ladies, it's ladies. And I came home one day
with an African pendant right like the leather of medallion's right.
I watched a different world I thought I would like.
I was like oh, and I was like I was like,
look mom, and she is like okay. She's like, we're
gonna sit down and I'm going to teach you about Africa.
(42:04):
And I said okay. She's like, because because you can
wear that pendum, but if someone asks you about Africa,
you need to know about Africa. And that was my
introduction to race. I mean, besides the fact that everyone
in my school was black and stuff for me, but
that was my introduction. Like she sat me down and
explained it to me and explained to me that no,
(42:25):
you are not African. If you're showing your respect, you
have to understand why you're being respectful, right, And I
carried that with me through my career because you know,
I was a hip hop kid. I I brot graffiti,
I I was I was part of hip hop for
all intents and purposes. You know, my allowance money I
mailed to the Zulu nation, So how did you find
(42:51):
that address? The back of word of that? And my
cousin was the editor of Word of magazine. When Biggie
said it was all dream, I sed read Word up magazine.
So I had a very my relationship with hip hop,
but also like Black culture in general is very different.
But I also know that I reached a point in
(43:11):
my career in hip hop. We're black women who had
way more experience and deserved way more respect than I did.
When I walked in a room, when I had reached
that threshold, I was getting more respect and I was
being regarded as like, you know, the academic. And then
you have these women who have done like amazing things
and they're being like asked about their lipstick or their
(43:32):
outfit and I and I watched it happen, and I
think when it comes to people like Iggy Azalea and
Miley Cyrus. I do I think that white men get
so many more passes than girls like that. I will
say that I think that like, white men have done
so many crazy things. I can't count the number of
white guys who have used the N word, And then
they go on an apology tour, right, and then Miley
(43:55):
towrqus and it's like, get her all the way off
social media. She's crazy And I understand both, right, and
I think that white people have done plenty to screw
up the relationship between them and black culture. Um. And
I think the problem with like an artist like an Iggy,
(44:16):
you know, is the ability to code switch. And I
think that that's where the biggest problem is. She's actually
hilarious on TikTok, and she's like being herself, not that
version of yeah, like like who who why? Right? Why?
But if she would have come out as herself as
(44:38):
like this like funny, funny person, you know, or even
like Miley, like she's got a little bit of like country,
got a little bit of punk, like I I hate
to think that the opinion is that hip hop will
not respect you unless you walk around like being a cartoon,
(45:00):
which version of yourself, because then you're saying that that's
what you see when you see black artists, So they're
screwing up all around. And for someone like myself, when
I say don't offend everybody else in the room, don't
walk around, is a reflection of anybody but yourself and
how you were raised. And if you were raised poorly,
then I suggest you open some books and talk to
(45:21):
more people. But I'm like those black women scholars, we
need to look at you know, like yeah, like read
Joan Morgan. You know what I'm saying, Like do like
do the work? If if if, if you came from
a place where you don't understand the history and the
culture behind the music that you claim to love, you know,
then just exit the room for a little bit until
(45:42):
you understand it. And I think that that's where the
problem is. I think that a lot of people are
jumping into the room because they're allowed to be, and
then they don't belong there. And I I would hate
to say I belong there, but I do know that,
you know, I would never go in there and not
know what the hell I'm talking about, or not fill
(46:05):
a space that should be occupied by someone of color.
Mm hmm, you know that's that's the other thing. I'm
not here to fill someone's space. I wrote. I wrote
God Saved the Queens because after forty years, somebody had to.
And I love women in hip hop and I love
hip hop. And I asked all of my black friends,
and that's not some like some of my best friends
(46:26):
are black. Thing. I literally asked my my black female
author friends, you should write a book on women in
hip hop and they were like, no, you should write
a book on So I did. I I finally did,
and I'm proud that I was able to do it.
But why did it take forty years? Do you have
any up and coming artists that you want to give
(46:47):
some shine to? You know? I? Um, I've been in
the vacuum of writing my Alia book and so tell
us everything, hell us, so baby girl better known as Aliyah,
it's um. You know the story of Aliyah that's coming
out August, eight days before they of her past. Yeah,
(47:12):
So I've been in an Alia vacuum like I've been. Really,
what happened with the plane? Why? I'll get you a
copy of the book. I'm not, I'm not. I'm not
allowed to reveal. I will tell you this, Um. I
went through sealed documents, court cases, um reports, and I
(47:38):
hope that this gives some closure. But I also hope
that everyone sees Aliyah. That's something that we've never been
able to see her as, which is a survivor. And
UM so I think that you know, we don't give
her that credit because what she endured post R Kelly,
during R Kelly, um and after, you know, we never
(48:01):
we never actually honored her strength in that and that's
a part of the book. But also the impact. I mean,
people like thirteen year olds are listening to Alia right yeah,
with no streaming music in sight. So yes, I was.
I was very much during this whole pandemic. Um caught
up in just listening to Aliyah. UM gladly. But if
(48:25):
I'm talking about new artists that I love in terms
of women in hip hop, I love Flow Milly. This
episode with her, yeah, well the one with baby um
little Baby's eate I am healthy, Yeah, I am. I
played that in the morning. Adina Howard's Freak Like Me
(48:47):
used to be my like AmpUp for the morning. Now
it's Flowmilly. I mean, it's full of affirmations in that song.
So she's just I I adore her. Um. I was
able to do her feature and double sell the last
issue along with Sweetie, who I love. We're just talking
about her. We listened to best Friend with Dojo. Yeah,
(49:09):
I love Sweetie, I love Flow Millie. I. Um, I
love the City Girls. I mean they teach me. They
just teach you how to get your bag, Like I like,
I feel like I have to play City Girls every
time like a check clears. There are some artists like
oh my gosh, Tierra Whack. Yes, she's been doing these
(49:31):
Instagram freestyle They've been good. Yeah, Like I love her.
I mean, I love Meg, I mean with all my heart.
I think rock is really dope. There's just a lot
of talent happening right now that um. I think it's
just it's different from from where we were even five
(49:55):
years ago. Kathy, I feel like my vision of what
right a hip hop writer is is like Sonal Lathan
in Brown Sugar, What are the craziest things that like
an artist has ever done? To an interview with you? Wow? Um,
how much time do you a lot? So I was
reviewing Joe Budden's album. He may not remember this, but
(50:18):
I was at a Barnes and Noble and he came
with a discmand with the CD was the headphone. What
was that song? It might have been his first project
or his second one. And he came with the CD
in the headphones and he like, we were at a
(50:41):
table at a cafe at the cafe in Barnes and Noble,
the Starbucks there, and he hands me like a coffee
and the disc command and he puts the headphones on
me and he sits like this and I'm you know,
looking right at me. Yeah, did you try to act
overly enthusiastic? So there's nothing worse than men at album
(51:06):
listening sessions, Like guys get really extra and and nobody cares.
And it's actually worse nowadays. But that was a cool
experience because you don't really get an artist coming to
like sit in front of you and like stare at
you while you're listening to their album. Your local Barnes
and Noble, My local Barnes and Noble. I I've been
(51:26):
in situations where an artist will like, I'll be leaving. Um,
I was leaving a listening session and the artists got
there late, and he really wanted me to cover the album.
So he's like, oh, I'll just write you down the
elevator and we got to the middle four and he
hit the emergency and he's like, now listen, No, I'm
not I'm not letting you. I'm not I'm not moving
(51:50):
this elevator until you come back up and listen to
the rest of the album. And I'm like, I'm like,
I already heard the album. He's like, nope, but you
have to hear, like me go into detail about like
the intricacies, and I'm just like, yeah, yeah, were Why
do men feel like they can just do stuff like
that and tell you what to do, how to do
(52:11):
your job? Bye? Boy? Did you go back? Did you?
Or I mean that I have a chance, So I
she was kidding. I mean I've had worse situations, like
as a woman like that. You know, they pal in
comparison to what other colleagues have gone through. But I've
been in situations where I've interrogued an artist and he's
(52:33):
like put his hand between my legs, tried stuff like that. Yeah,
And that's I feel like the sort of like rampant
like we can just like take women sometimes that I
feel like male rappers will it's like an entitlement to
our bodies and then they get mad when we claim
(52:53):
our own bodies. Well, and you know this generation, and
I have to give them how much credit? They speak
up right, and they're not afraid. We didn't have Twitter
to go on Twitter and say hey, I was just
fired from my job because I said I I felt uncomfortable.
I don't. We didn't have that luxury. So what we
(53:15):
had was, well, your boss might get mad at you,
or the label might not ask you for anything again.
And if they do that, then you're not going to
be called to do this. And if you're not called
to do this, you're not going to be doing that.
So we were always we were told it was to
have a thick skin, right, That's what it was told, like,
you have to develop a thick skin. And I don't
think that. I think that we were part of a generation,
(53:38):
you know, in the in the nineties and two thousand,
early two thousands, where we were made to feel that
the there was like a long spectrum from kindness and
criminal right, So we we came from you know things
(53:59):
now that we're just our every day would never ever
ever fly now ever. And I have to give the
new women, um in hip hop and any real any journalism,
any industry and UM anywhere really um, but I have
to give them credit because they're speaking up. We were
(54:21):
we were like kind of like hushed into submission. And
there are some good guys like and I'll say his
name because I think he was just amazing, Um, Fetty
wap right. We're both from Patterson, So Fetty I did.
I did a feature with him for Vice, and then
I went and I did one for Maxim shortly thereafter,
(54:42):
and Fetti asked me to come to his apartment to
do the interview. And because you know, I had already
known him, and I felt fine, So I guess to
the apartment, Like seven dudes show up and I was like, oh, Kathy,
fifteen years and you haven't learned your lesson. But Fetny
(55:04):
was like, hey, guys, could just go in the other room.
I'm trying to talk to Cathy here, and like he
just sat with me and like the Jews were smoking
and he kept blowing the smoke aways, like what are
you doing? Like she like she obviously doesn't smoke. And
I was like, you know, we have to honor the
good guys, like we have to you know. Um. I
had to interview DJ Khaled once in a dressing room
and they were like twenty dudes in the dressing room
(55:24):
and Kaled like I walked in with the recorder and
Kaled looks at me and he grabs me by the
arm and he walks me out. He's like, that is
no place for you. He's like, let's go do the
interview over here. So there there are some good guys.
I don't want to say that there aren't, because I've
encountered more solid guys in this Industry's good to hear,
but there there have been situations where I'm like, what
(55:47):
are you doing? Like why are you? Why are you here?
And you know, sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't.
So but um, yeah, Barnes, Barnes and Noble man, Um,
this is great. Yeah, yeah, thanks for talking to it
(56:08):
seriously much thanks. I'm sorry I talked a lot. I'm
like ramped up on caffeine's. I'm usually sitting in my
bed watching the office right now. That was cool, y'all,
so informative, all those jams. Right, Everyone should go out
and get Kathy's book. God Save the Queen's. Yes, it's
(56:31):
definitely on my shelf, and y'all know why, because if
it's up, then it's up. Then it's up, then it's good.
But should we give them a taste of us? How
we sail, how we wrap? Ye? Stay ready, I don't
know if they're ready for this as murder. Stay ready
on the track or you got to beat the whole time?
(56:52):
You got it? Who get pass it up? It's your turn.
Here I go. My name is Brown, I'm in down.
I'm about to go to your town. Yeah Brown, y'all,
(57:15):
I can only beatbox for a bit. Now it's hard
getting tired. Let me drop, put me back, put a
native stepping in on the track. I'm going to leg
it down like I gotta smack your ass. We mess
(57:36):
because I'm U had a native bit there. I just
started using patriarchy and I got so quick, man, that's
(58:00):
IM proud for you folks. Just comes out a okay,
I'll help you out. Where is it? Yeah my god,
I got you? Okay a killer. Don't play right around
(58:24):
the block. Come get your body. Get him? Oh my god,
Uh steal your man? And I ain't said about it.
Watch out. That looks like a silk bunnet. Not The
(58:44):
beat was the perfect mom. She was in the pocket.
I was mixed. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The pocket of
the beat. Yeah, I don't realize that it's hard because
there's a delay. Someone's doing a beat delay. Well, here
it goes. Actually your church, Ash Murder says, this time
(59:14):
forward break, so we're about to get off no steak.
That was really perfect and cohesive. Wow. We have gotten
our fair share of hip hop today and I am
that's um. Anyway, we appreciate you guys tuning in. Please
(59:40):
remember to subscribe, and if you want to show us love,
you can rate and review this podcast and come. Keep
you with us on social at Obama's Other Daughters, on
Instagram at O D Improv on Twitter and on Facebook
at Obama's Other Daughters. If you need some advice or
you know someone who does need some advice, send your
(01:00:00):
letters to us at O O D Podcast at gmion
dot com. We'll see you guys next week and may
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