January 12, 2021 • 53 mins
On this episode of You Down? OOD talks with public academic, writer, and Karen Wrangler, Rachel Cargle. They discuss intersectionality, knowing your values, staying in your joy, and how the wild wild web can be both a hostile and a rewarding place.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to You Down, a production of Shonda Land Audio
and partnership with I Heart Radio. We give trolls too
much credit. It's not just the trolls who are out
here saying wild, racist, dismissive things. It's normal asked people
who are living in your normal ass neighborhood who are
existing with these thoughts and these beliefs. Hi, everyone, and
(00:26):
welcome back to you Down A podcast wherefore funny honeys
come together to talk about what's going on in the culture.
I'm mommya AfOR Oh, I'm Ashley Holston, and I'm Yasmin
when I walk in, but collectively we are known as
Obama's other Daughters. And today we're asking are you down
(00:50):
with intersectionality? As a queer Black woman, I personally know
what intersectionality is in theory, But today we're talking to
write her activists in public academic Rachel Cargo, who's made
it her mission to help us all learn and unlearned
about the history and root causes of our current climates, stunding, grace, class, gender, sexuality,
(01:12):
the whole kit and caboodle. But before we jump into it,
what's y'all love in what you hating? This week. Yeah,
I went camping this week, and y'all know, I bought
a hammock stand off Amazon, so that's would have been
sleeping him. It just feels better on my back. But
when I went camping, I was able to sleep in
a hammock in a tree, and it's a whole different thing.
(01:34):
I don't know why I actually had to Yasmin, I
thought about you, because to tie the hammock around the tree,
you kind of have to hug the tree. And I
was like, this is a very Yasmine moment. Let me,
let me thank this tree for its service. But it's
such a good investment. Guys, I've definitely taken an amazing
nap in a hammock once. I'm always thinking about bugs
(01:56):
when I'm laying outside in the grass. Yeah, that might
mean you're not an outside person, mummy. Also, there were
bugs on your camping. Absolutely outside are bugs? You know.
This week something that I'm really loving. And I've talked
about the ocean before, but this past weekend I told
(02:16):
myself every day of the week I was going to
the sea. And I also learned no, no, no none,
how to serve. Wow, that's so exciting. Wait, you learned
how to serve where you took a lesson you know,
how to get up and jump al got on the
board twice. Wow. Yeah, it was sort of an impromptu lesson.
(02:39):
And wait, who did you wouldn't wander her on the beach?
Did you run into because I know you didn't sign
up for a class. I know you just like happened.
I swear sometimes the university looking out because learning how
to surf has been on my bucket list for years
and I have not made it a priority. And then
a friend of a friend at some boards they sail
(03:03):
like your weekend and I wasn't even planning on it necessarily.
We just were both at the same beach at the
same time, and she's like, we're doing surf lessons. Want
to join? And I was like, yeah, it's also on
my bucket list. I imagine it being so free, so exhilarating.
When I stood up, I was like, you can't tell
(03:25):
me nothing nothing. I feel like it's like the first
time you jumped down the stairs on skates, Like I
wrote a world like, no one can tell me nothing.
Calm okay, I'm gonna calm down. Yeah, there is something
about conquering a skill that it feels so good. I
(03:47):
feel like the closest I'll ever get to surfing is wakeboarding,
because y'all, the ocean is just a little scary for me.
I love water sports, but like a jet ski, I'm
not like actually up in the water. I'm just riding
up on it. Fair, don't life jacket. I have a
life jacket on surfing. Now it's we're in a deep
blue and shoot sharks. Ain't no joke. There were only dolphins,
(04:10):
but my heart. Even if I saw a dolphin like
close to me and I'm that far out, I'm freaking out,
like deep down, I'm holding it together by a g string.
That's why you should also wear supportive swimwear. Well, let
me tell you, if a shark wanted you on that
jet ski, it's gonna get you. It's over for you.
(04:31):
I feel like I could fight him on a jet
ski a little bit. I would love to see this fight. Okay, y'all,
remember how l cooj killed that one shark and that
deeply movie with the cross and he said the Bible
verses he did it. Just imagine me doing the same
exact thing I am right now loving It's something small
(04:51):
but I got this Cramber Lay flavored almond milk coffee creamer,
and like every cup of coffee I've had a week
had has been it's Cramber Life flavors, so sugar, then
it's almond milk, so health, and then you go it
in the coffee and there's energy energy, sugar health. This
(05:12):
is literally just a sugar. It sounds good. There's something
about creamer that changes the coffee. Yes, well, happy sipping
over there. This week, I I mean every week, but
this week specifically, I'm really loving Nigerian movies. There are
(05:33):
so many of them on Netflix, which if you told
me that two years ago, I would be like, that's
never going to happen. So it's really cool and as
a Gunya and I kind of take ownership over because
their quality of Nigerian movies is so much better than
Ghanaian movies, but we still compete and win the gilaff
Rice race. I was curious about that. But anyway, there's
(05:57):
so many good ones and they're just so cheesy and
like so fun to watch and comment. My family we
watch this one called Chief Daddy, Chief Daddy Daddy. There's
a really good one that actually went to Tribeca called
Nigerian Prince. That's super good too, and a lot of
them are like, you already know the plot within the
(06:18):
first couple of minutes, but there's just something about how
it's just very different than American cinema and the way
that the story is told and like the plot points
that we would think, oh, it's a fifteen minutes and
we have no idea what these people are doing yet.
So if you want to laugh, you know, get some
wine and watch a Nigerian film on Netflix. Okay. I
(06:38):
love that you watched it with your family because my
favorite thing like is to dissect television as I'm watching
with the people with me, and it's so much better
when you can be loose and be like, what is
she thinking? Well, guys, I think it's time for us
to jump into our main convo, and today we're talking
about intersectionality with Ray Cargo either section like the way
(07:04):
is both a thug and in intersection. But first, let's
say a quick little break. Welcome back everyone, Let's get
(07:26):
into it. So Kimberly Crunshaw coined the term intersectionality, and
today we are going to get further into that conversation
and chat with public academic, writer, lecturer, and my friend
Rachel Cargo. Rachel's activists and academic works are rooted in
providing intellectual discourse, tools and resources that explore the intersection
(07:49):
of race and womanhood. Her social media platform engages over
one point eight million people, through which Rachel guides conversations,
encourages critical thinking, and nurture is meaningful engagement with people
all over the world. If you haven't been on our Instagram,
do yourself a favor and head there now. Rachel. We're
so excited to have you here today. Thanks for joining us.
(08:11):
I'm so happy. Thanks for writing me. Of course. Okay,
so of course we're all obsessed with you in our
own rights. But for those who don't know yet, can
you tell us about your rise to becoming such a
respected resource on race and intersectionality. It was kind of
an unexpected journey for me, but it's been such an
(08:32):
incredible build of community, build of consciousness, build of conversation
around intersectionality. And it really started um I had a
photo that went viral on Instagram after the Women's March,
and that's when things kind of took off, where people
were coming to me to be in conversation about intersectionality,
(08:52):
because it was a photo of me and my white
friend Dana standing next to each other, fist raised with
signs that said, if you're not for all women, then
you're for no women. And so it kind of became
a conversation starter, and I got a lot of opportunity
to discuss my experiences, my insight, and it kind of
(09:14):
took off as this space in this platform to be
in critical conversation about these things that we all are
experiencing but at the time hadn't been in critical conversation about.
But now it's at the forefront of what I feel like.
It's all conversations. So it's wonderful to have had the
experience of being in the conversation and then now to
(09:37):
see it all kind of materialized in the space of
action and intention. It's so interesting that your kind of
rise started with a photo, because it feels like social
media is a big part of your work or how
you get your work across. Can you talk about, I
guess the role social media plays in your work and
(09:59):
what drove you to creating the Great unlearned. Social media
is such a blessing and a curse. It's sometimes the
best thing ever, and it's sometimes the absolute worst. And
so I think I've been on both ends of that.
I think I've been able to see the incredible way
that people from all over the world, so many different backgrounds,
(10:20):
so many different neighborhoods, so many different experiences, can come
together and just be in conversation about our shared experiences,
to teach each other, to learn from each other, and
just to get insight into things you never would have
been able to see or understand if it wasn't for
social media's access that it offers us. But also, you know,
(10:41):
it's crazy out there. It's a wild wild West, a
different wild wild West than they've discussed, wild wild web.
You're right, that's it, Web you do. This podcast was
for me to announce my new career. Welcome. But yeah,
(11:05):
sometimes it can be the absolute worst. My comment section
can be a ship show. My d m s are
also equally a show, and just the ways that people
can have this courage and this boldness behind screens when
they don't have to actually interact with people in a
face to face way. So yeah, sometimes it's the best
(11:26):
and sometimes it's the worst. But I think that I
have been so lucky to have been building a community
and conversation over these last few years that has been
much more meaningful than it has been catastrophic overall. I
think the crazy comment for sure. For sure, for sure,
(11:46):
I guess for all the folks at home and for us,
what is intersectionality and and why is it so important
for people to understand? Intersectionality is such a buzzword these days.
Often when I'm out lecturing, I say, like, if intersectionalities
in your bio, you probably don't actually know what it
means of, like an intersection of feminist to see a
(12:07):
lot and the thing that I teach mostly this intersectionality
is not a word. It's a whole ass theory that
was developed by a black academic, Kimberly Crenshaw. She took
on the work of many many academics, many activists, many
writers who came before her who talked on the theme
of intersectionality, but there wasn't necessarily a word for it.
(12:28):
Because black women have been experiencing intersectionality over all of time,
of this intersection of being black and experiencing those specific
oppressions of blackness and the intersection of womanhood and experiencing
the sexism that comes with existing in a body that
presents as a woman. Intersectionality, the term coined by Kimberly
(12:48):
Crenshaw was specifically in response to the court cases that
were happening. She was in law school when she studied this,
and she was looking at the ways that black women
were not being seen with in the judicial system. So
it was specifically um with a court case that was
happening at a big manufacturing factory and black women were
(13:10):
getting fired and they went to court and we're saying
that it was a race issue, that they were discriminating
based on race, and all these black women were getting fired,
and the judge was like, oh, no, there's black men there,
so this isn't, how anything to do with race. And
then they came in and they said, okay, well it's
a gender thing. All of us black women are getting fired,
and they said, oh, there's white women working there, so
(13:31):
this can't be a gender thing. And so it looked
at this intersection of you're not a white woman and
you're not a black man, and there's this intersection where
we exist, where the literal judicial system was not seeing
black women as something to be fought for, something to
be defended and so that was where Kimberly Crenshaw really
(13:52):
had her punch and intersectionality and that work. But intersection
is really looking at these intersections of the oppressions that
we experience. And a lot of people think it means
integration or it means I don't know what, like, oh,
look there's one black girl here in all of us
fifty million white people, and that's intersectionality. No, it's actually
taking accountability and being aware of these intersections of oppression
(14:15):
and finding ways to center these people that are most
marginalized in their society that often completely dismisses their existence. Wow,
that's just thank you for that, Rundown. I came to
your talk you lecture wasn't yeah, um, but I just
(14:39):
remember sitting there in that room, and you know, the
audience was really full of women who it seems like
they were salivating for you to vindicate them from something
through teaching, and it was just such an energy and
like the strangest thing to see these people like almost
want you to be like, beat it out of me, Rachel,
(15:00):
beat it out of me. You know, like the whole
model that you've built your business on is remarkable. I
just had to say that I'm so glad you were
there and you were able to get a first hand
experience of what my audience is like. And I don't
know if you stayed after, but there's usually like a
line after to speak to me, and every single time
(15:21):
it's a line of white women waiting to tell me
there this time, I wasn't a racist story, and they're
waiting for me. They're waiting for me to be like,
good job, I'm so proud of you, good learning. And
it's it's it's a very interesting anthropological ethnographic study into
white guilt, into white exceptionalism, into just like social justice
(15:46):
warrior spaces and how that was such a precursor for
the intensity of it that we're seeing right now in
the midst of the protests. And I will say, girl,
I'm so grateful for the space you create on the internet,
because when I don't have the capacity, I am literally like,
go check out her work, you know what. Like it's
like a very simple like forward, go do some of
(16:09):
your own work, Go learn I've sent a lot of
white people to your page, so well do I often
get so many black people who say, Rachel, how do
I get into this work, or I'm too exhausted to
do this or to explain this or to have this
experience with the white person. And I always say, this
is my livelihood. I get paid to do this kind
of work. I get paid to do the studying and
(16:31):
create these tools and these materials to teach. So please,
I always say, those of us who this is our livelihood,
this is how we do our work. Bring people to
us so that we can continue to make a living
doing this work. And also, black people have no requirement
to teach or to do this type of anti racism work,
(16:52):
So I appreciate you are sending people my way. And
I also want to affirm to black people listening that
it is not your job to hold white people's hands
or teach them through how to be a not racist person.
There's many of us who teach and write books and
write articles and develop tools that you can send their way.
And I hope that we can be a resource and
(17:13):
not just to the white people who obviously need to learn,
but to the black people who need to rest, and
can send people our way where we can offer them
a lot of the things that we've been building and
developing and creating and anti racism work over the years.
I feel like that's a perfect segue into the work
you do with The Great Unlearned. You know, we brought
it up a little bit earlier, but what exactly does
(17:34):
that look like? And then for those who don't know.
In addition to all this amazing work, she also runs
a bookstore called Elizabeth's Bookshop and Writing Center, which I
truly can't wait when the world opens back up to
come to Ohio to visit it, tell us about the
grid and learn, and then also like, what are some
books that you think are imperative for folks to understand
(17:55):
intersectionality and race in America. So The Great Unlearned is
my version of an autodidactic map. I did a lot
of my own learning. I don't have a degree. A
lot of people are usually shocked to learn. People like
usually put PhD after my name, or they asked me
what graduate program I was a part of, and I'm like,
I haven't graduated with any degrees. All of my learning
(18:17):
has been done personally, learning through other people. Thanks, and
a lot of people have expressed to me that they
love it, that they love this idea that we can
exist in the world critically and academically without giving our
money to these predominantly white institutions who really don't care
about us anyway. Yeah, yeah, can you speak a little
to that, Yeah, for sure. I'm studying at Columbia University.
(18:41):
I was studying anthropology, and I was enjoying the coursework.
It was actually a really great learning experience for me.
But I was seeing on the sidelines all of these
ways that the university was completely harming and being dismissive
of the realities of their black students. And I just
was like, I'm not giving you all my money for
(19:02):
you to treat my people like. So I just decided
to walk away, and I left Columbia and I started
doing more intensive learning myself. I started buying more books,
I started watching lectures online. I started buying and reading
academic textbooks and then reaching out to the authors to
ask my questions. Any chance, he spoke to Patricia Hall Collins. No,
(19:25):
I haven't spoke to Patricia Hall Collins, but I would
have what it passed me to like just eating email
and be like, Hey, I've read your work and this
is what I've wanted, can you explain x y zy
to me? I did that too, many, many authors who
in our minds we would have never thought to really
feel the freedom to reach out to someone. But everyone
likes to hear that their work is appreciated, and everyone
likes to hear that there's someone invigorated by what they've written.
(19:46):
And I've found lots of really meaningful contact with authors
and academics who I've been able to have one on
one conversations with. And so I started to reimagine what
it could mean to be an academic. And so I
started to you use the title public academic, and people
started to take me seriously in my work, and I
started to get invited to lecture at I think I've
(20:07):
lectured at all of the I V s. I've been
able to do really great lectures at Ohio State and
a lot of other wonderful universities, and I do my
own public lecturing. So I go around the country and
I've been able to sell out spaces to teach and
lecture on topics of my own choosing. And it's just
been this incredible opportunity to reimagine what it means to
(20:29):
be a scholar. And the great unlearned was my answer
to all of the people asking me how did I
do it? How is I doing it? Who was I
learning from? And so I developed The Great Unlearned as
a space for people to learn along with me and
to learn from incredible black academics who I bring in
to be our expert and the Great Unlearned. Every month
I issue a new syllabus with a new topic and
(20:52):
a new expert, and all of our experts are usually black,
usually queer, Some are in academia, some are it and
it's just been an incredible opportunity to gather resources. The
Great and Learned has what we call office hours every
month where our students get to come on and watch
a lecture from our experts, something that usually would be
(21:14):
so hard to get into with the caliber of people
that we've been able to bring in. And we also
have something called Study Hall where we all get together
and have kind of like we're not a book club,
but an article club, where we study an article together
that speaks on the topic at hand. And it's just
been this incredible space of everyday people committed to learning,
(21:35):
committed to their curiosity, and it's donation based and it's
self paced, so there's not the capitalist qualities of you
have to pay us a trillion dollars and you have
to do it within this amount of time to be
deemed meaningful or to be deemed productive. And it's been
a really awesome curation of knowledge and critical conversation and
(22:00):
just people being intent in their own learning, which obviously
advises how we exists in the world. I'm really proud
of the Great Unlearning. Sounds like you should be very
proud of that work of taking the initiative to learn
in your own which I don't think most people do.
It's something I love about. I'm a big YouTuber and
I'm like, I can learn anything on the Internet. There's
(22:21):
so much. There's so much in unpacking white feminism. Um
your talk, you say that that is part of it.
That tickled me too. It was like at the end,
like and all of this information is on the Internet,
and people are like, wait, it's not magic. I know.
(22:42):
And that's also I think what the Great Unlearned is
really good for is that the syllabus is a gathering
of resources. So we look for things for people to
listen to, people to read, and people to watch. So
it usually ends up being a collection of YouTube videos
or documentary from somewhere podcast, different things like that, articles,
and I try to make it a success as possible,
so we don't have anything that's behind a J store paywall.
(23:03):
Jay Store be keeping us back. I know right this
that I'm not paying your academic prices for this website.
I know it's so sad that the knowledge that's supposed
to be shifting society isn't actually available to society. But
let's all the podcasts. But we try to make it
as accessible as possible. And it's so interesting to see
(23:25):
people reading these things that they clearly could have searched themselves.
But I guess that's part of what we're offering, gathering
this information so that they can access it and start
being in conversation about the things we find. But yeah,
you're definitely right. Like I said, I don't have a degree,
so it's not like I was inside of the Columbia
Library wall. There's no like secret volta Black knowledge only
black people have and white people are just now getting
(23:47):
access to it. All of this stuff has been online
and available and in libraries and in journals for a
very long time, and I hope that as I continue
to curate the syllabi, they for just touch points launch
pads for people to start to continue to do research
that's meaningful for them. Yeah. I know you're known for
(24:09):
dissecting off the wall comments that people leave on your page.
You never minced words when you teach and when you speak.
What's the craziest thing someone has ever said to you?
The thing that comes to mind is I recently did
one of my dissections this past Saturday, and there's a
white woman who was like pleading for black people to
(24:29):
really just do better. And she said that because we
as white women just want to be able to walk
through the ghetto without being scared. Like she turned the
whole entire social justice movement into black people deserving to
get out of the ghetto so that white people can
walk through those areas without fearing for their lives. And
(24:49):
it was just such a off the wall comment. And
I just usually I have a big explanation for why
a person said what they said and what implicit racism
and what biases these are coming from. I had nothing
for that, Like, I don't know where this is coming
from or how she might have possibly thought that that
was a good idea. I mean, has she seen your
(25:12):
page before? Like I don't read through I don't read it.
Do you think that is such an issue for me?
And and I think it's a conversation that needs to
be had overall, is that we often give these horrible
comments to trolls when trolls are also people in the world.
(25:33):
And so I think that people say, like, oh, that
was a troll comment. It's like, no, that was actually
someone's grandma who actually believed that, and she's raising her
grandkids to think that way. Like, we we give trolls
too much credit. It's not just the trolls who are
out here saying wild, racist, dismissive things. It's normal. Asked
people who are living in your normal ass neighborhood who
(25:55):
are existing with these thoughts and these beliefs, and so well, yes,
I understand the concept of trolls, particularly in race work.
I think that we need to stop giving trolls so
much credit because the people who are saying these things
are actual normal Ask people existing in the world with
these beliefs, even if the avatar is not their face.
(26:16):
They type whatever they thought that white people should be
able to walk in these ghettos. And I mean it
just sounds like a you know, like it sounds so great,
and I get so many of those and people are like, oh, Rachel,
ignore it. It's a troll, and it's like, this is
how people in America think, and this is why things
needs to change. Very true. On your social media you
(26:38):
talk about how love changes things, and that's a huge
part of what you do is encourage self love and
self care. So can you speak a little bit about
the lessons you've learned in love, both romantic and platonic. Oh,
that's a good question. I have been having so much
reckoning within myself with the concept of love and the
(27:00):
reality of love and my own definitions of it, and
hearing you quote me in the term love changes things,
it's making me really consider how hands on love is,
how it has to be vulnerable, how it has to
be kind of I don't want to say dirty in
the sense of bad, but you have to get your
(27:21):
hands into it, just like in the dirt, and you're
building something. And so there's no way to find love
and not be vulnerable, whether that's with yourself, whether that's
with other people. And so I think that when I
say love changes things, it does indeed change maybe your
every day who you're communicating with, who you're sleeping next
(27:41):
to who you're building these relationships with. But it changes
you because it puts you into this space of inherent
vulnerability that you really can't skirt around. You can't shortcut
to love. You can't shortcut and be like, oh, I'm
gonna still be super super blocked off, but I'm gonna
pretend like I'm deep in love. The only way to
fall is to be vulnerable, and I think that seeing
(28:03):
that change in yourself and seeing that change, it's always
fun to kind of watch other people fall in love
and be like, wow, Okay, I see you being way
different than you were two weeks ago, talking about you
didn't want to talk to anybody. Good. That's me after
this podcast, after we've done recording, and I find my
new boo, thank you. But seeing it literally shape shifts
(28:27):
how we exist in the world. And I have learned
so much about myself in the romantic relationships I've had
over the last two years. I talked a lot on
social media about my divorce. I was very very young,
and then I kind of walked away from what people
consider a good marriage. You know, he wasn't abusive, We
(28:47):
built me a beautiful house, we were driving BMW's. I
didn't have to work, he was making enough money. I
was having this incredible upportunity did but when a house
and I got to pick out, like you have the
right to leave regardless, But I was like where he
at building houses, But now I got to design the
(29:12):
house that I wanted and he made sure that it happens.
And I just had a very easy experience because I
was with this man who had the opportunity to give
that to me. But I wasn't content. I talked about
a lot how I just woke up one day like
I don't want to do this, not only for me,
because I don't want to exist in this guilt of
knowing that I'm not supposed to be here, but also
(29:33):
he deserved to be with someone who wanted to be there.
And when I got that divorced and I moved to
New York, and I was living in like a shoe
box department as compared to the four bedroom, finished basement,
beautiful too car garage household I was living in. I
had never been happier in my little shoe box and
bed sty Then, you know, like it just was his
experience of knowing where I was supposed to be what
(29:54):
my highest values are and how I wanted to exist
in the world, and so coming out of that relation
ship and finding reiteration after reiteration of love in various
ways and various people. I think love is probably a
subject that I study within myself as much as I
study and have intension with anything else. That vulnerability, man,
(30:17):
you have to be so hard right, It's at the
core of everything. It really is. I mean, because even
in comedy you have to be vulnerable to get a
good laugh. My best laughs have been the times where
I'm the most open, real, real afraid, real afraid thinking
about it in business too. I recently read a journal
(30:39):
entry that I made about how dumb I felt talking
to my lawyer and how dumb I felt talking to
my financial advisor at the very very beginning of my career,
and I like, I didn't know anything, I had no direction.
They would ask me questions and I'd have to like
google words to see what they were even talking about.
And as much as I could have been like okay,
I'm not even gonna do this, showing up vulnerabily and
(30:59):
being like, yes, I know nothing, when the protest started,
I had a huge jump from three husbands and seventy
five thousand followers to one point five million followers, And
it was such a huge shift in the business of
how I exist in the world. And if I hadn't
have been vulnerable before and built this team of my advisor,
of my lawyer, of my assistant, then I would have
(31:22):
never had those relationships that literally were the only way
I was able to stay grounded when that big jump came,
and so vulnerability shows up, I was ready. I know.
I'm so thankful. I always say I pray to my
younger self prayers of thankfulness for what she did to
prepare me for now. Speaking of it feels like you
know a lot right now. It feels like you got
(31:43):
it all together. What would you tell I don't know
that you know every feels like you're expert today, so
you got it all together. But speaking of your younger self,
is there a bit of advice you would give to
young you? You know, it's so interesting. I feel like
(32:06):
my older self learned so much from my younger self.
As I get more maybe timid or scared as I
get older, I'm not as reckless as I was when
I was out here doing all things all the time,
but it's all got me here. But I think with
my younger self, I used to watch on social media
and just see people I admired, and I would be
so happy for them, like I would be like, yes,
(32:28):
my league, yes, lovey, yes you know everyone who was
out here building these incredible spaces online. And I just
wish I could go and sit with myself cheering those
people on and say like, oh, it's gonna be your
turn because you were able to prepare, because you've been
doing your work, because you've been showing up, like it
(32:48):
will be your turn to show up in the world
in meaningful ways too. And so I think that I
wouldn't necessarily go with any advice because my younger self
knew so much, but I would just be cheering on her, like, yes,
you got it, this is it. Everything you're going through
is leading to more than you could ever imagine. That's beautiful.
I'm like, okay, younger me, let me just send this
(33:10):
letter that Rachel just wrote. No, it's so real, like
thinking about what our younger selves could have wanted or
needed to be successful and to thrive because I know
that early on there's so much doubt. I share all
the time, like old Facebook posts from younger Yeah, like, oh,
here's a lesson from you know, my twenty seven year
(33:31):
old self for my twenty three year old self. I
recently had someone asked me what am I most proud of.
I was thinking about it, and I say that I'm
most proud that I was able to cultivate joy in
every single season, like when I had zero money and
was the housekeeper at a hotel, and when I was
in New York City and babysit and white kids for
(33:53):
you know, all day, every day, trying to make money,
when I couldn't pay my rent, when I was kind
of getting my feet wet, and what my career maybe
and everything was going wrong, I was still able to
find joy and find some sort of peace within me
as I moved through. And that is what I'm most
proud of. Okay, so you have to tell us what
are some of those things that brought you or bring
(34:15):
you joy? I found a whole bunch of joy this
morning scrolling through all of the virtual film festivals that
are happening because of COVID. It's so sad that they're
not happening, but to our benefit, most film festivals are
online right now, so you don't have to fly into
here there to watch this really great film. I'm a cinofile.
I love seeing the human experience expressed creatively in film.
(34:40):
That's one of the things that brings me joy. Just creativity.
Seeing people be dope with their abilities brings me so
much joy. Napping brings me so much joy. I just
just feeling like I've been able to manage my time
enough to get a nap in every day. Black people
in general, just a across the board bring me joy.
(35:02):
Just our existence that does. And I moved home to
Ohio earlier this year to be closer to my mom
who was having a health issue, and she's getting better.
So I made the self care decision to also get
an apartment in Brooklyn. So being able to live between
Ohio and Brooklyn is like just an incredible joy to have,
like my child at home and then my heart's home
(35:24):
in the city. That just felt like such a step
of deep self care and deep indulgence to say I
deserve to exist in both places. That has been a
source of deep joy for me, like gifting myself with
that feels like a lot of the things that bring
you joy are inherent to like you knowing yourself very well?
Do you feel that you know yourself well? And like,
(35:46):
what are some tools that you used to get there? Yeah,
I started talking about this a lot. About two years ago.
I read a book called Grit by an author Angela Duckworth,
and it was such an opening book. There's a lot
of elitism and capitalism and a whole bunch of other
horrible stuff braided into it, but there's also you know,
(36:07):
take the fish always loans. And so one of the
biggest things I got out of the book is exploring
what my highest values are and coming to terms with
what I actually care about and letting go of what
I actually don't care about. And so I realized that
some of my highest values for the last good while
we're ease, abundance, and opportunity, and so these were things
(36:28):
that after I really consider, what are my deepest desires?
What am I always dreaming of? What am I always
thinking of? What am I sometimes envious that other people have?
And so I started existing in my life through the
lens of those things. So a really good example is
in the ways that my highest values influence how I
spend my money. My highest values influence who my friends are.
(36:49):
My highest values influence how I interact with my home.
One good example that I often tell as it applies
to money, is that I am not a closed jewelry person.
I probably have three pairs of shoes and I wear
the same outen five times over the course of a week,
and like, I'm just not super into those things. But
(37:10):
what I am into is having ease when I get
the chance. So instead of spending my money on maybe
like a designer bag or on address, I fly first
class everywhere I go because that's the ease and the
comfort that I want in my life. Finding your highest
values allows you to have easy es is and easy nose.
(37:31):
So even if there are other opportunities for me to
spend my money in a different way or to use
my time in a different way that might seem beneficial
to someone else, but it simply doesn't fit inside my
highest values, and I'm not gonna do it, and it's
gonna be an easy no. Even for my business called
the lovel And Group, whenever we have our love and
meeting where everyone comes together every year, I lay out
(37:54):
what my highest values are. And your job is to
literally do your job through my highest values, and that's
what my team does. I hire you because you're an
expert what your expertise needs to be through the lens
of my highest values. And I remember last year one
of the best emails I ever received was when my
manager and the person who runs my foundation, they were
(38:16):
getting something together for me, and they said, hey, Rachel,
we finish, but we want to send this overy to
you to make sure that it matches your highest values.
And I'm like, thank you for that. You taught them. Well,
it's the easiest way to ensure that the way I
want to live exists in all areas of my life.
(38:37):
So yeah, I do feel like I know myself very
well because I spent a lot of time combing out
what my highest values are and existing through that. And
sometimes they shift and sometimes they change depending on what's
happening in my life. But that has given me so
much grounded nous and how I exist in the world.
It's crazy that it sounds so simple to make a
list of the things that you value, but obviously that
(39:00):
is not an easy thing to do. It feels daunting
to I had to google values. I do a workshop
caught Ascend where I walk people through how to find
the highest vice, and one of my favorite exercises and
finding it is to tap into fantasy. Oftentimes we associate
(39:22):
fantasy with sexual which also is very valid in this situation,
but to really consider what do you fantasize about. I know,
for me, when I wasn't really making any money and
I was living in a really horrible apartment in Brooklyn,
I remember just being in the shower and thinking, how
incredible would it be to have a dentist whenever I
(39:45):
needed one? How incredible would it be to have access
to a termatologist. How great would it be to be
able to buy the luggage that I want that I
know will stay together for this trip between here and there.
And I just remember fantasizing about having a roster of
doctors that I would have access to. And it's so silly,
but I would literally fantasize about that type of ease
(40:08):
that helped me tap into what my greatest values are.
And when I do these workshops, people tell me a
lot of times they fantasize about Christmas Morning with their
future family. So one of their highest values is family
and community because they really care so much about what
that tradition and ongoing family life would be Like some
people would tell me that they would fantasize about being
(40:28):
able to climb out Everest when they're sixty. It's like, okay,
wellness is a really huge part of your highest value.
So if things don't fit into what you want to
be doing when you're sixty, then you should consider making
that highest value. So just my super easy tip of
tapping into what your fantasies are and deciding how those
might play into what you really really want in the world.
(40:50):
M Yes, yes, yes, yes yes. While you said that,
I was like, oh, yeah, this is what I fantasized about.
This is what I think about out and the random
things that look at on Instagram consistently, like that area
where it's like everything that you go to a lot
and they want you to click more. Yep, So just
(41:14):
look at your Instagram ad. My heart is so full.
I'm really glad that we're recording this so I can
like go back and take notes. Thank you for the
unapologetic way you exist. I saw your bi posts and
I was like, we exist, like of course, like queer
black women are at the forefront of changing the world. Yeah,
(41:35):
that's been such an interesting conversation across the board too.
But there's so many incredible queer Black women who are
doing so much incredible work. So Rachel, for people who
want to connect, where can they follow you and find
all your amazing resources. Most of my work happens on
Instagram and it's at Rachel dot cargo c A r
(41:56):
G as in girl l E and my site or
it holds all of my stuff Rachel Cargo dot com.
You can get access to the great and learn if
you want to learn along with me. Access to my bookstore, Elizabeth,
as well as some of my consultation work and just
some of the fun work that I do in other
freelance ways as well. And my foundation, the lovel And Foundation.
(42:19):
There's information there as well, and we provide free mental
health therapy sessions to black women and girls and for
the lovel And Foundation. Dot org is a huge meaningful
space if anyone wants to explore me and my work
as well. We're doing a lot of really great work
over there. Let's go. Thank you for being with us today,
(42:41):
thank you for inviting me. Any time you want to
come back, just let us right. We'll get a reoccurring
calendar dates that would perfect. Guys, that was so fun,
and um, I'm ready to give some advice. But before
we do that, let's take a great break. Okay, welcome back,
(43:14):
welcome back. It's time for us to give a lucky
listener some advice. What you got for us? All right, y'all,
this is a juicy letter. It reads, I'll get right
into it. I got myself into a predicament and now
I'm stuck for context. I work in a predominantly white
and male environment. She's black and she's from Molly to
(43:35):
be specific. This doesn't bother me too much because I
truly enjoy my job and I'm good at it. Good
for you, girl. I've been working there for about four years,
and I've moved up ever since. Okay, she bright climbing
the ladder. A little over a year ago, I got
a new coworker that is also black, and naturally we
just clicked. Okay, here we go. We're gonna call him Ben.
(43:58):
It was nice to finally have someone that looks like me.
I should pull it out that Ben is very attractive, smart,
and always smells good. Since been started, we've gotten closer
as we've had to work a few projects together. Ben
is also very flirty, and we've harmlessly flirted back and forth.
(44:19):
He's basically morphed into my work husband. He'd buy me
a random coffee, check on me when I'm not in
and even got me flowers on my birthday. It's not innocent,
don't say beautiful. Now to the sticky part, Ben is
also in a serious relationship. Matter of fact, he proposed
to his long term girlfriend. This is too messy for me, y'all.
(44:43):
This is a lot, so we're gonna tag team in
a little bit. She goes on to say, a few
months ago, we had to work together on a project
and he offered to finish at his place. Oh, since
he was expecting the delivery that needed to be signed for,
we ordered take out and worked out of his living room.
Not long after we finished work, we decided to watch
(45:04):
an episode of Queen of the South. Okay, and before
you we were locking lips. Girl, are you judging her?
No judgment, No judgment. She's over here saying we made
out and eventually had sex. It was mind blowing. She
also has a caveat. I'm also single and haven't had
(45:26):
sex in two years. She says, in a way, I
was very satisfied because I had countless fantasies about him.
And then MOMMYA, can you finish us up with this
last little portion of the letter? Sure, she goes on.
I felt really guilty afterwards. This is a whole engaged man.
(45:46):
I decided to avoid him for the next couple of weeks,
even though I craved him now more than ever. He
texted me multiple times to check on me and apologize
for putting me in a weird situation. He also admitted
that he couldn't stop thinking about me. One night, he
called me up and I answered because I was bored.
He drove a rude to me to apologize, and we
(46:07):
had sex again in his car the girl in the car.
My dilemma is that, even though a big part of
me knows how messed up this is, I kind of
don't want to stop. He doesn't either. I feel like
I don't have much to lose except living with a
heavy conscience. What should I do since he doesn't seem
(46:28):
to care. I feel so bad for his fiance. No,
I don't, but I also okay, she didn't sign her name?
What what should we call it? Um knows the truth
but doesn't want to admit it. M knows the truth,
but don't care. Yeah, alright, knows the truer, don't care
(46:50):
to be on her side, know the truth. Yes, she'd
be a messy, and she knows she'd be a messy.
But he's the whole last engaged man, and uh, he
needs to take some responsibility on a heavier end because
he's the one who's cheating. You know, she knows that
he wrong, but he is the one who was engaged
and got a fiance while he was flirting and buying
(47:11):
flowers and birthday presents. I mean, I agree that it
is more on him, right, because he's the person in relationship.
But my girl already says she feel bad about it.
And if you feel bad, you know you're doing something wrong.
What did Rachel say, You're not living your values highest
not living your highest value. I'm sure it's not to
be the other woman having said the sex in the
(47:33):
car was about to play, but that that's some of
the best sex I've ever had. It in the car,
But she knew what she was doing. Yeah, if you did,
if you didn't know about him being engaged and he
was just digging you down and then you found out
later than that be different. But since you know about
him being engaged and still going with the flow, I mean,
I think you're gonna have to either have a hard
conversation with him where he needs to address his partner.
(47:55):
And if she not down for an open relationship, which
you know she won't be, uh you know, I mean
she might, she might, but he wouldn't be speaking sucking
and ducking and ducking. And I just feel like, girl,
you deserve your own man, like you deserve to be
loved holy by somebody. Yes, this person is kind of
(48:19):
using you because they are emotionally attached to you and
they clearly like you, but they are so selfish that
they also want to do the cookie cutter, have a
wife and a fabulous wedding and have sex with you
on the side. Think about it like that, are you
invited to the wedding? Like girl? And I think ultimately
a lot of these advice letters come down to, like
(48:41):
what do you want for your life? Actually you bringing
up what Rachel is saying around like what are your values?
And if having secret sex you know, does it for you,
then this is I guess that highest purpose for you.
But if you're looking for a relationship. You call him
your work husband, are you looking for an actual husband?
(49:02):
Communication is just such a key part of that. I
definitely think you should encourage Ben to talk to his
fiance about well, no, not even not even I just
and in general, I do really feel like you should
just communicate with the people that are in your life
so they can make a choice about whether this is
something they want. Look, you know what you need to do,
(49:25):
because you wrote in saying it's a dilemma. You wrote
in a dissertation by a dissertation, talk about how messed
up this is. So just as hard as it is
not to have this man's mind blowing sex in the car.
It's not right. It's not right, and don't do it.
It's not right, and don't do it in a discussion.
(49:46):
And you know, as a you know, I've been single
a while and sometimes you do get some mind blowing sex,
and you are you know, you tore up, tore up
from the flow up. But a lot of times you
get you know, really right sex more than once. And
you got to believe that to be your truth because
for a while I thought, man, I ain't never gonna
get dick down like that again, and then guess what,
(50:08):
I got dick down like that again by somebody actually
was worthy, and it was better too. It was it
was probably better because that person and it was a
better person. It was an actual you know, it was
a better situation. He values you. Yeah, not just think
about that phone call he's gonna get right after y'all
(50:30):
finished fucking, and it's his wife. You're gonna want to
live with that, You don't. This is just like a
Nigerian movie. I watched this. Give her the name of
it so she can watch it and learn her fate.
So yeah, I mean, treat people the way you want
to be treated. Don't do no chicy stuff. And karma
(50:50):
is real just that part as well. By real, we
mean a bit. Oh and she comes back. You don't
know when she coming could be when you finally get
that husband. Oh no, I don't wish that on her.
I don't wish it on her. I'm just saying it
could happen. But also they have to work together. Still,
(51:10):
that's the part we didn't even touch that they're the
only two black people at a very white company. You're right,
she does have to address him. I would say, hey, Ben,
you know what we did is what we did, but
they don't do it again to No, we can't do
it anymore, and you gotta get reassigned. You gotta get resigned.
You can't be strong. Is there a world where they
(51:32):
can also be like? Look, slip up, We're still friends.
Can we just stop? I didn't try apology in a
car lead the second Every single conversation will end up
with them rolling around. Ye, the answer is don't fun
the merry man right here here for that And on
(51:55):
that note, we have learned so much. Thank you guys
for hanging out with us, learning more about intersectionality with
Rachel Cargo and her journey. Please go check out and
support her work in the world. This is a good time. Yeah,
we appreciate you guys tuning in. Please remember to share.
Thank you for everyone who's been supporting us and reviewing
(52:17):
because all of that really helps us make the best
show that we can. So okay, and we watched you
guys to come speaking with us on social hit us
up at Obama's or the Daughters on Instagram, O d
M Prop on Twitter and Obama's are the Daughters on
Facebook and if you need advice, you can email us
(52:37):
at O d podcast at gmail dot com. And if
you know someone else will need some advice in my way,
you'd love to help, Yes, please, But until then, in
the meantime, in between time, we'll see you all on
the internet and can't wait to see you next week.
By by You Down is a production of Shawndland Audio
(53:04):
and partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
Shawndland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I don't
(53:32):
like the guns sound. I didn't know those are guns.
I thought it was just Jamaican reggae sounds. It's reggae guns.
They blow out smoke a week. They don't have photos.
Welcome to You Down, a production of Shonda Land Audio
and partnership with I Heart Radio. We give trolls too
much credit. It's not just the trolls who are out
here saying wild, racist, dismissive things. It's normal asked people
who are living in your normal ass neighborhood who are
existing with these thoughts and these beliefs. Hi, everyone, and
(00:26):
welcome back to you Down A podcast wherefore funny honeys
come together to talk about what's going on in the culture.
I'm mommya AfOR Oh, I'm Ashley Holston, and I'm Yasmin
when I walk in, but collectively we are known as
Obama's other Daughters. And today we're asking are you down
(00:50):
with intersectionality? As a queer Black woman, I personally know
what intersectionality is in theory, But today we're talking to
write her activists in public academic Rachel Cargo, who's made
it her mission to help us all learn and unlearned
about the history and root causes of our current climates, stunding, grace, class, gender, sexuality,
(01:12):
the whole kit and caboodle. But before we jump into it,
what's y'all love in what you hating? This week. Yeah,
I went camping this week, and y'all know, I bought
a hammock stand off Amazon, so that's would have been
sleeping him. It just feels better on my back. But
when I went camping, I was able to sleep in
a hammock in a tree, and it's a whole different thing.
(01:34):
I don't know why I actually had to Yasmin, I
thought about you, because to tie the hammock around the tree,
you kind of have to hug the tree. And I
was like, this is a very Yasmine moment. Let me,
let me thank this tree for its service. But it's
such a good investment. Guys, I've definitely taken an amazing
nap in a hammock once. I'm always thinking about bugs
(01:56):
when I'm laying outside in the grass. Yeah, that might
mean you're not an outside person, mummy. Also, there were
bugs on your camping. Absolutely outside are bugs? You know.
This week something that I'm really loving. And I've talked
about the ocean before, but this past weekend I told
(02:16):
myself every day of the week I was going to
the sea. And I also learned no, no, no none,
how to serve. Wow, that's so exciting. Wait, you learned
how to serve where you took a lesson you know,
how to get up and jump al got on the
board twice. Wow. Yeah, it was sort of an impromptu lesson.
(02:39):
And wait, who did you wouldn't wander her on the beach?
Did you run into because I know you didn't sign
up for a class. I know you just like happened.
I swear sometimes the university looking out because learning how
to surf has been on my bucket list for years
and I have not made it a priority. And then
a friend of a friend at some boards they sail
(03:03):
like your weekend and I wasn't even planning on it necessarily.
We just were both at the same beach at the
same time, and she's like, we're doing surf lessons. Want
to join? And I was like, yeah, it's also on
my bucket list. I imagine it being so free, so exhilarating.
When I stood up, I was like, you can't tell
(03:25):
me nothing nothing. I feel like it's like the first
time you jumped down the stairs on skates, Like I
wrote a world like, no one can tell me nothing.
Calm okay, I'm gonna calm down. Yeah, there is something
about conquering a skill that it feels so good. I
(03:47):
feel like the closest I'll ever get to surfing is wakeboarding,
because y'all, the ocean is just a little scary for me.
I love water sports, but like a jet ski, I'm
not like actually up in the water. I'm just riding
up on it. Fair, don't life jacket. I have a
life jacket on surfing. Now it's we're in a deep
blue and shoot sharks. Ain't no joke. There were only dolphins,
(04:10):
but my heart. Even if I saw a dolphin like
close to me and I'm that far out, I'm freaking out,
like deep down, I'm holding it together by a g string.
That's why you should also wear supportive swimwear. Well, let
me tell you, if a shark wanted you on that
jet ski, it's gonna get you. It's over for you.
(04:31):
I feel like I could fight him on a jet
ski a little bit. I would love to see this fight. Okay, y'all,
remember how l cooj killed that one shark and that
deeply movie with the cross and he said the Bible
verses he did it. Just imagine me doing the same
exact thing I am right now loving It's something small
(04:51):
but I got this Cramber Lay flavored almond milk coffee creamer,
and like every cup of coffee I've had a week
had has been it's Cramber Life flavors, so sugar, then
it's almond milk, so health, and then you go it
in the coffee and there's energy energy, sugar health. This
(05:12):
is literally just a sugar. It sounds good. There's something
about creamer that changes the coffee. Yes, well, happy sipping
over there. This week, I I mean every week, but
this week specifically, I'm really loving Nigerian movies. There are
(05:33):
so many of them on Netflix, which if you told
me that two years ago, I would be like, that's
never going to happen. So it's really cool and as
a Gunya and I kind of take ownership over because
their quality of Nigerian movies is so much better than
Ghanaian movies, but we still compete and win the gilaff
Rice race. I was curious about that. But anyway, there's
(05:57):
so many good ones and they're just so cheesy and
like so fun to watch and comment. My family we
watch this one called Chief Daddy, Chief Daddy Daddy. There's
a really good one that actually went to Tribeca called
Nigerian Prince. That's super good too, and a lot of
them are like, you already know the plot within the
(06:18):
first couple of minutes, but there's just something about how
it's just very different than American cinema and the way
that the story is told and like the plot points
that we would think, oh, it's a fifteen minutes and
we have no idea what these people are doing yet.
So if you want to laugh, you know, get some
wine and watch a Nigerian film on Netflix. Okay. I
(06:38):
love that you watched it with your family because my
favorite thing like is to dissect television as I'm watching
with the people with me, and it's so much better
when you can be loose and be like, what is
she thinking? Well, guys, I think it's time for us
to jump into our main convo, and today we're talking
about intersectionality with Ray Cargo either section like the way
(07:04):
is both a thug and in intersection. But first, let's
say a quick little break. Welcome back everyone, Let's get
(07:26):
into it. So Kimberly Crunshaw coined the term intersectionality, and
today we are going to get further into that conversation
and chat with public academic, writer, lecturer, and my friend
Rachel Cargo. Rachel's activists and academic works are rooted in
providing intellectual discourse, tools and resources that explore the intersection
(07:49):
of race and womanhood. Her social media platform engages over
one point eight million people, through which Rachel guides conversations,
encourages critical thinking, and nurture is meaningful engagement with people
all over the world. If you haven't been on our Instagram,
do yourself a favor and head there now. Rachel. We're
so excited to have you here today. Thanks for joining us.
(08:11):
I'm so happy. Thanks for writing me. Of course. Okay,
so of course we're all obsessed with you in our
own rights. But for those who don't know yet, can
you tell us about your rise to becoming such a
respected resource on race and intersectionality. It was kind of
an unexpected journey for me, but it's been such an
(08:32):
incredible build of community, build of consciousness, build of conversation
around intersectionality. And it really started um I had a
photo that went viral on Instagram after the Women's March,
and that's when things kind of took off, where people
were coming to me to be in conversation about intersectionality,
(08:52):
because it was a photo of me and my white
friend Dana standing next to each other, fist raised with
signs that said, if you're not for all women, then
you're for no women. And so it kind of became
a conversation starter, and I got a lot of opportunity
to discuss my experiences, my insight, and it kind of
(09:14):
took off as this space in this platform to be
in critical conversation about these things that we all are
experiencing but at the time hadn't been in critical conversation about.
But now it's at the forefront of what I feel like.
It's all conversations. So it's wonderful to have had the
experience of being in the conversation and then now to
(09:37):
see it all kind of materialized in the space of
action and intention. It's so interesting that your kind of
rise started with a photo, because it feels like social
media is a big part of your work or how
you get your work across. Can you talk about, I
guess the role social media plays in your work and
(09:59):
what drove you to creating the Great unlearned. Social media
is such a blessing and a curse. It's sometimes the
best thing ever, and it's sometimes the absolute worst. And
so I think I've been on both ends of that.
I think I've been able to see the incredible way
that people from all over the world, so many different backgrounds,
(10:20):
so many different neighborhoods, so many different experiences, can come
together and just be in conversation about our shared experiences,
to teach each other, to learn from each other, and
just to get insight into things you never would have
been able to see or understand if it wasn't for
social media's access that it offers us. But also, you know,
(10:41):
it's crazy out there. It's a wild wild West, a
different wild wild West than they've discussed, wild wild web.
You're right, that's it, Web you do. This podcast was
for me to announce my new career. Welcome. But yeah,
(11:05):
sometimes it can be the absolute worst. My comment section
can be a ship show. My d m s are
also equally a show, and just the ways that people
can have this courage and this boldness behind screens when
they don't have to actually interact with people in a
face to face way. So yeah, sometimes it's the best
(11:26):
and sometimes it's the worst. But I think that I
have been so lucky to have been building a community
and conversation over these last few years that has been
much more meaningful than it has been catastrophic overall. I
think the crazy comment for sure. For sure, for sure,
(11:46):
I guess for all the folks at home and for us,
what is intersectionality and and why is it so important
for people to understand? Intersectionality is such a buzzword these days.
Often when I'm out lecturing, I say, like, if intersectionalities
in your bio, you probably don't actually know what it
means of, like an intersection of feminist to see a
(12:07):
lot and the thing that I teach mostly this intersectionality
is not a word. It's a whole ass theory that
was developed by a black academic, Kimberly Crenshaw. She took
on the work of many many academics, many activists, many
writers who came before her who talked on the theme
of intersectionality, but there wasn't necessarily a word for it.
(12:28):
Because black women have been experiencing intersectionality over all of time,
of this intersection of being black and experiencing those specific
oppressions of blackness and the intersection of womanhood and experiencing
the sexism that comes with existing in a body that
presents as a woman. Intersectionality, the term coined by Kimberly
(12:48):
Crenshaw was specifically in response to the court cases that
were happening. She was in law school when she studied this,
and she was looking at the ways that black women
were not being seen with in the judicial system. So
it was specifically um with a court case that was
happening at a big manufacturing factory and black women were
(13:10):
getting fired and they went to court and we're saying
that it was a race issue, that they were discriminating
based on race, and all these black women were getting fired,
and the judge was like, oh, no, there's black men there,
so this isn't, how anything to do with race. And
then they came in and they said, okay, well it's
a gender thing. All of us black women are getting fired,
and they said, oh, there's white women working there, so
(13:31):
this can't be a gender thing. And so it looked
at this intersection of you're not a white woman and
you're not a black man, and there's this intersection where
we exist, where the literal judicial system was not seeing
black women as something to be fought for, something to
be defended and so that was where Kimberly Crenshaw really
(13:52):
had her punch and intersectionality and that work. But intersection
is really looking at these intersections of the oppressions that
we experience. And a lot of people think it means
integration or it means I don't know what, like, oh,
look there's one black girl here in all of us
fifty million white people, and that's intersectionality. No, it's actually
taking accountability and being aware of these intersections of oppression
(14:15):
and finding ways to center these people that are most
marginalized in their society that often completely dismisses their existence. Wow,
that's just thank you for that, Rundown. I came to
your talk you lecture wasn't yeah, um, but I just
(14:39):
remember sitting there in that room, and you know, the
audience was really full of women who it seems like
they were salivating for you to vindicate them from something
through teaching, and it was just such an energy and
like the strangest thing to see these people like almost
want you to be like, beat it out of me, Rachel,
(15:00):
beat it out of me. You know, like the whole
model that you've built your business on is remarkable. I
just had to say that I'm so glad you were
there and you were able to get a first hand
experience of what my audience is like. And I don't
know if you stayed after, but there's usually like a
line after to speak to me, and every single time
(15:21):
it's a line of white women waiting to tell me
there this time, I wasn't a racist story, and they're
waiting for me. They're waiting for me to be like,
good job, I'm so proud of you, good learning. And
it's it's it's a very interesting anthropological ethnographic study into
white guilt, into white exceptionalism, into just like social justice
(15:46):
warrior spaces and how that was such a precursor for
the intensity of it that we're seeing right now in
the midst of the protests. And I will say, girl,
I'm so grateful for the space you create on the internet,
because when I don't have the capacity, I am literally like,
go check out her work, you know what. Like it's
like a very simple like forward, go do some of
(16:09):
your own work, Go learn I've sent a lot of
white people to your page, so well do I often
get so many black people who say, Rachel, how do
I get into this work, or I'm too exhausted to
do this or to explain this or to have this
experience with the white person. And I always say, this
is my livelihood. I get paid to do this kind
of work. I get paid to do the studying and
(16:31):
create these tools and these materials to teach. So please,
I always say, those of us who this is our livelihood,
this is how we do our work. Bring people to
us so that we can continue to make a living
doing this work. And also, black people have no requirement
to teach or to do this type of anti racism work,
(16:52):
So I appreciate you are sending people my way. And
I also want to affirm to black people listening that
it is not your job to hold white people's hands
or teach them through how to be a not racist person.
There's many of us who teach and write books and
write articles and develop tools that you can send their way.
And I hope that we can be a resource and
(17:13):
not just to the white people who obviously need to learn,
but to the black people who need to rest, and
can send people our way where we can offer them
a lot of the things that we've been building and
developing and creating and anti racism work over the years.
I feel like that's a perfect segue into the work
you do with The Great Unlearned. You know, we brought
it up a little bit earlier, but what exactly does
(17:34):
that look like? And then for those who don't know.
In addition to all this amazing work, she also runs
a bookstore called Elizabeth's Bookshop and Writing Center, which I
truly can't wait when the world opens back up to
come to Ohio to visit it, tell us about the
grid and learn, and then also like, what are some
books that you think are imperative for folks to understand
(17:55):
intersectionality and race in America. So The Great Unlearned is
my version of an autodidactic map. I did a lot
of my own learning. I don't have a degree. A
lot of people are usually shocked to learn. People like
usually put PhD after my name, or they asked me
what graduate program I was a part of, and I'm like,
I haven't graduated with any degrees. All of my learning
(18:17):
has been done personally, learning through other people. Thanks, and
a lot of people have expressed to me that they
love it, that they love this idea that we can
exist in the world critically and academically without giving our
money to these predominantly white institutions who really don't care
about us anyway. Yeah, yeah, can you speak a little
to that, Yeah, for sure. I'm studying at Columbia University.
(18:41):
I was studying anthropology, and I was enjoying the coursework.
It was actually a really great learning experience for me.
But I was seeing on the sidelines all of these
ways that the university was completely harming and being dismissive
of the realities of their black students. And I just
was like, I'm not giving you all my money for
(19:02):
you to treat my people like. So I just decided
to walk away, and I left Columbia and I started
doing more intensive learning myself. I started buying more books,
I started watching lectures online. I started buying and reading
academic textbooks and then reaching out to the authors to
ask my questions. Any chance, he spoke to Patricia Hall Collins. No,
(19:25):
I haven't spoke to Patricia Hall Collins, but I would
have what it passed me to like just eating email
and be like, Hey, I've read your work and this
is what I've wanted, can you explain x y zy
to me? I did that too, many, many authors who
in our minds we would have never thought to really
feel the freedom to reach out to someone. But everyone
likes to hear that their work is appreciated, and everyone
likes to hear that there's someone invigorated by what they've written.
(19:46):
And I've found lots of really meaningful contact with authors
and academics who I've been able to have one on
one conversations with. And so I started to reimagine what
it could mean to be an academic. And so I
started to you use the title public academic, and people
started to take me seriously in my work, and I
started to get invited to lecture at I think I've
(20:07):
lectured at all of the I V s. I've been
able to do really great lectures at Ohio State and
a lot of other wonderful universities, and I do my
own public lecturing. So I go around the country and
I've been able to sell out spaces to teach and
lecture on topics of my own choosing. And it's just
been this incredible opportunity to reimagine what it means to
(20:29):
be a scholar. And the great unlearned was my answer
to all of the people asking me how did I
do it? How is I doing it? Who was I
learning from? And so I developed The Great Unlearned as
a space for people to learn along with me and
to learn from incredible black academics who I bring in
to be our expert and the Great Unlearned. Every month
I issue a new syllabus with a new topic and
(20:52):
a new expert, and all of our experts are usually black,
usually queer, Some are in academia, some are it and
it's just been an incredible opportunity to gather resources. The
Great and Learned has what we call office hours every
month where our students get to come on and watch
a lecture from our experts, something that usually would be
(21:14):
so hard to get into with the caliber of people
that we've been able to bring in. And we also
have something called Study Hall where we all get together
and have kind of like we're not a book club,
but an article club, where we study an article together
that speaks on the topic at hand. And it's just
been this incredible space of everyday people committed to learning,
(21:35):
committed to their curiosity, and it's donation based and it's
self paced, so there's not the capitalist qualities of you
have to pay us a trillion dollars and you have
to do it within this amount of time to be
deemed meaningful or to be deemed productive. And it's been
a really awesome curation of knowledge and critical conversation and
(22:00):
just people being intent in their own learning, which obviously
advises how we exists in the world. I'm really proud
of the Great Unlearning. Sounds like you should be very
proud of that work of taking the initiative to learn
in your own which I don't think most people do.
It's something I love about. I'm a big YouTuber and
I'm like, I can learn anything on the Internet. There's
(22:21):
so much. There's so much in unpacking white feminism. Um
your talk, you say that that is part of it.
That tickled me too. It was like at the end,
like and all of this information is on the Internet,
and people are like, wait, it's not magic. I know.
(22:42):
And that's also I think what the Great Unlearned is
really good for is that the syllabus is a gathering
of resources. So we look for things for people to
listen to, people to read, and people to watch. So
it usually ends up being a collection of YouTube videos
or documentary from somewhere podcast, different things like that, articles,
and I try to make it a success as possible,
so we don't have anything that's behind a J store paywall.
(23:03):
Jay Store be keeping us back. I know right this
that I'm not paying your academic prices for this website.
I know it's so sad that the knowledge that's supposed
to be shifting society isn't actually available to society. But
let's all the podcasts. But we try to make it
as accessible as possible. And it's so interesting to see
(23:25):
people reading these things that they clearly could have searched themselves.
But I guess that's part of what we're offering, gathering
this information so that they can access it and start
being in conversation about the things we find. But yeah,
you're definitely right. Like I said, I don't have a degree,
so it's not like I was inside of the Columbia
Library wall. There's no like secret volta Black knowledge only
black people have and white people are just now getting
(23:47):
access to it. All of this stuff has been online
and available and in libraries and in journals for a
very long time, and I hope that as I continue
to curate the syllabi, they for just touch points launch
pads for people to start to continue to do research
that's meaningful for them. Yeah. I know you're known for
(24:09):
dissecting off the wall comments that people leave on your page.
You never minced words when you teach and when you speak.
What's the craziest thing someone has ever said to you?
The thing that comes to mind is I recently did
one of my dissections this past Saturday, and there's a
white woman who was like pleading for black people to
(24:29):
really just do better. And she said that because we
as white women just want to be able to walk
through the ghetto without being scared. Like she turned the
whole entire social justice movement into black people deserving to
get out of the ghetto so that white people can
walk through those areas without fearing for their lives. And
(24:49):
it was just such a off the wall comment. And
I just usually I have a big explanation for why
a person said what they said and what implicit racism
and what biases these are coming from. I had nothing
for that, Like, I don't know where this is coming
from or how she might have possibly thought that that
was a good idea. I mean, has she seen your
(25:12):
page before? Like I don't read through I don't read it.
Do you think that is such an issue for me?
And and I think it's a conversation that needs to
be had overall, is that we often give these horrible
comments to trolls when trolls are also people in the world.
(25:33):
And so I think that people say, like, oh, that
was a troll comment. It's like, no, that was actually
someone's grandma who actually believed that, and she's raising her
grandkids to think that way. Like, we we give trolls
too much credit. It's not just the trolls who are
out here saying wild, racist, dismissive things. It's normal. Asked
people who are living in your normal ass neighborhood who
(25:55):
are existing with these thoughts and these beliefs, and so well, yes,
I understand the concept of trolls, particularly in race work.
I think that we need to stop giving trolls so
much credit because the people who are saying these things
are actual normal Ask people existing in the world with
these beliefs, even if the avatar is not their face.
(26:16):
They type whatever they thought that white people should be
able to walk in these ghettos. And I mean it
just sounds like a you know, like it sounds so great,
and I get so many of those and people are like, oh, Rachel,
ignore it. It's a troll, and it's like, this is
how people in America think, and this is why things
needs to change. Very true. On your social media you
(26:38):
talk about how love changes things, and that's a huge
part of what you do is encourage self love and
self care. So can you speak a little bit about
the lessons you've learned in love, both romantic and platonic. Oh,
that's a good question. I have been having so much
reckoning within myself with the concept of love and the
(27:00):
reality of love and my own definitions of it, and
hearing you quote me in the term love changes things,
it's making me really consider how hands on love is,
how it has to be vulnerable, how it has to
be kind of I don't want to say dirty in
the sense of bad, but you have to get your
(27:21):
hands into it, just like in the dirt, and you're
building something. And so there's no way to find love
and not be vulnerable, whether that's with yourself, whether that's
with other people. And so I think that when I
say love changes things, it does indeed change maybe your
every day who you're communicating with, who you're sleeping next
(27:41):
to who you're building these relationships with. But it changes
you because it puts you into this space of inherent
vulnerability that you really can't skirt around. You can't shortcut
to love. You can't shortcut and be like, oh, I'm
gonna still be super super blocked off, but I'm gonna
pretend like I'm deep in love. The only way to
fall is to be vulnerable, and I think that seeing
(28:03):
that change in yourself and seeing that change, it's always
fun to kind of watch other people fall in love
and be like, wow, Okay, I see you being way
different than you were two weeks ago, talking about you
didn't want to talk to anybody. Good. That's me after
this podcast, after we've done recording, and I find my
new boo, thank you. But seeing it literally shape shifts
(28:27):
how we exist in the world. And I have learned
so much about myself in the romantic relationships I've had
over the last two years. I talked a lot on
social media about my divorce. I was very very young,
and then I kind of walked away from what people
consider a good marriage. You know, he wasn't abusive, We
(28:47):
built me a beautiful house, we were driving BMW's. I
didn't have to work, he was making enough money. I
was having this incredible upportunity did but when a house
and I got to pick out, like you have the
right to leave regardless, But I was like where he
at building houses, But now I got to design the
(29:12):
house that I wanted and he made sure that it happens.
And I just had a very easy experience because I
was with this man who had the opportunity to give
that to me. But I wasn't content. I talked about
a lot how I just woke up one day like
I don't want to do this, not only for me,
because I don't want to exist in this guilt of
knowing that I'm not supposed to be here, but also
(29:33):
he deserved to be with someone who wanted to be there.
And when I got that divorced and I moved to
New York, and I was living in like a shoe
box department as compared to the four bedroom, finished basement,
beautiful too car garage household I was living in. I
had never been happier in my little shoe box and
bed sty Then, you know, like it just was his
experience of knowing where I was supposed to be what
(29:54):
my highest values are and how I wanted to exist
in the world, and so coming out of that relation
ship and finding reiteration after reiteration of love in various
ways and various people. I think love is probably a
subject that I study within myself as much as I
study and have intension with anything else. That vulnerability, man,
(30:17):
you have to be so hard right, It's at the
core of everything. It really is. I mean, because even
in comedy you have to be vulnerable to get a
good laugh. My best laughs have been the times where
I'm the most open, real, real afraid, real afraid thinking
about it in business too. I recently read a journal
(30:39):
entry that I made about how dumb I felt talking
to my lawyer and how dumb I felt talking to
my financial advisor at the very very beginning of my career,
and I like, I didn't know anything, I had no direction.
They would ask me questions and I'd have to like
google words to see what they were even talking about.
And as much as I could have been like okay,
I'm not even gonna do this, showing up vulnerabily and
(30:59):
being like, yes, I know nothing, when the protest started,
I had a huge jump from three husbands and seventy
five thousand followers to one point five million followers, And
it was such a huge shift in the business of
how I exist in the world. And if I hadn't
have been vulnerable before and built this team of my advisor,
of my lawyer, of my assistant, then I would have
(31:22):
never had those relationships that literally were the only way
I was able to stay grounded when that big jump came,
and so vulnerability shows up, I was ready. I know.
I'm so thankful. I always say I pray to my
younger self prayers of thankfulness for what she did to
prepare me for now. Speaking of it feels like you
know a lot right now. It feels like you got
(31:43):
it all together. What would you tell I don't know
that you know every feels like you're expert today, so
you got it all together. But speaking of your younger self,
is there a bit of advice you would give to
young you? You know, it's so interesting. I feel like
(32:06):
my older self learned so much from my younger self.
As I get more maybe timid or scared as I
get older, I'm not as reckless as I was when
I was out here doing all things all the time,
but it's all got me here. But I think with
my younger self, I used to watch on social media
and just see people I admired, and I would be
so happy for them, like I would be like, yes,
(32:28):
my league, yes, lovey, yes you know everyone who was
out here building these incredible spaces online. And I just
wish I could go and sit with myself cheering those
people on and say like, oh, it's gonna be your
turn because you were able to prepare, because you've been
doing your work, because you've been showing up, like it
(32:48):
will be your turn to show up in the world
in meaningful ways too. And so I think that I
wouldn't necessarily go with any advice because my younger self
knew so much, but I would just be cheering on her, like, yes,
you got it, this is it. Everything you're going through
is leading to more than you could ever imagine. That's beautiful.
I'm like, okay, younger me, let me just send this
(33:10):
letter that Rachel just wrote. No, it's so real, like
thinking about what our younger selves could have wanted or
needed to be successful and to thrive because I know
that early on there's so much doubt. I share all
the time, like old Facebook posts from younger Yeah, like, oh,
here's a lesson from you know, my twenty seven year
(33:31):
old self for my twenty three year old self. I
recently had someone asked me what am I most proud of.
I was thinking about it, and I say that I'm
most proud that I was able to cultivate joy in
every single season, like when I had zero money and
was the housekeeper at a hotel, and when I was
in New York City and babysit and white kids for
(33:53):
you know, all day, every day, trying to make money,
when I couldn't pay my rent, when I was kind
of getting my feet wet, and what my career maybe
and everything was going wrong, I was still able to
find joy and find some sort of peace within me
as I moved through. And that is what I'm most
proud of. Okay, so you have to tell us what
are some of those things that brought you or bring
(34:15):
you joy? I found a whole bunch of joy this
morning scrolling through all of the virtual film festivals that
are happening because of COVID. It's so sad that they're
not happening, but to our benefit, most film festivals are
online right now, so you don't have to fly into
here there to watch this really great film. I'm a cinofile.
I love seeing the human experience expressed creatively in film.
(34:40):
That's one of the things that brings me joy. Just creativity.
Seeing people be dope with their abilities brings me so
much joy. Napping brings me so much joy. I just
just feeling like I've been able to manage my time
enough to get a nap in every day. Black people
in general, just a across the board bring me joy.
(35:02):
Just our existence that does. And I moved home to
Ohio earlier this year to be closer to my mom
who was having a health issue, and she's getting better.
So I made the self care decision to also get
an apartment in Brooklyn. So being able to live between
Ohio and Brooklyn is like just an incredible joy to have,
like my child at home and then my heart's home
(35:24):
in the city. That just felt like such a step
of deep self care and deep indulgence to say I
deserve to exist in both places. That has been a
source of deep joy for me, like gifting myself with
that feels like a lot of the things that bring
you joy are inherent to like you knowing yourself very well?
Do you feel that you know yourself well? And like,
(35:46):
what are some tools that you used to get there? Yeah,
I started talking about this a lot. About two years ago.
I read a book called Grit by an author Angela Duckworth,
and it was such an opening book. There's a lot
of elitism and capitalism and a whole bunch of other
horrible stuff braided into it, but there's also you know,
(36:07):
take the fish always loans. And so one of the
biggest things I got out of the book is exploring
what my highest values are and coming to terms with
what I actually care about and letting go of what
I actually don't care about. And so I realized that
some of my highest values for the last good while
we're ease, abundance, and opportunity, and so these were things
(36:28):
that after I really consider, what are my deepest desires?
What am I always dreaming of? What am I always
thinking of? What am I sometimes envious that other people have?
And so I started existing in my life through the
lens of those things. So a really good example is
in the ways that my highest values influence how I
spend my money. My highest values influence who my friends are.
(36:49):
My highest values influence how I interact with my home.
One good example that I often tell as it applies
to money, is that I am not a closed jewelry person.
I probably have three pairs of shoes and I wear
the same outen five times over the course of a week,
and like, I'm just not super into those things. But
(37:10):
what I am into is having ease when I get
the chance. So instead of spending my money on maybe
like a designer bag or on address, I fly first
class everywhere I go because that's the ease and the
comfort that I want in my life. Finding your highest
values allows you to have easy es is and easy nose.
(37:31):
So even if there are other opportunities for me to
spend my money in a different way or to use
my time in a different way that might seem beneficial
to someone else, but it simply doesn't fit inside my
highest values, and I'm not gonna do it, and it's
gonna be an easy no. Even for my business called
the lovel And Group, whenever we have our love and
meeting where everyone comes together every year, I lay out
(37:54):
what my highest values are. And your job is to
literally do your job through my highest values, and that's
what my team does. I hire you because you're an
expert what your expertise needs to be through the lens
of my highest values. And I remember last year one
of the best emails I ever received was when my
manager and the person who runs my foundation, they were
(38:16):
getting something together for me, and they said, hey, Rachel,
we finish, but we want to send this overy to
you to make sure that it matches your highest values.
And I'm like, thank you for that. You taught them. Well,
it's the easiest way to ensure that the way I
want to live exists in all areas of my life.
(38:37):
So yeah, I do feel like I know myself very
well because I spent a lot of time combing out
what my highest values are and existing through that. And
sometimes they shift and sometimes they change depending on what's
happening in my life. But that has given me so
much grounded nous and how I exist in the world.
It's crazy that it sounds so simple to make a
list of the things that you value, but obviously that
(39:00):
is not an easy thing to do. It feels daunting
to I had to google values. I do a workshop
caught Ascend where I walk people through how to find
the highest vice, and one of my favorite exercises and
finding it is to tap into fantasy. Oftentimes we associate
(39:22):
fantasy with sexual which also is very valid in this situation,
but to really consider what do you fantasize about. I know,
for me, when I wasn't really making any money and
I was living in a really horrible apartment in Brooklyn,
I remember just being in the shower and thinking, how
incredible would it be to have a dentist whenever I
(39:45):
needed one? How incredible would it be to have access
to a termatologist. How great would it be to be
able to buy the luggage that I want that I
know will stay together for this trip between here and there.
And I just remember fantasizing about having a roster of
doctors that I would have access to. And it's so silly,
but I would literally fantasize about that type of ease
(40:08):
that helped me tap into what my greatest values are.
And when I do these workshops, people tell me a
lot of times they fantasize about Christmas Morning with their
future family. So one of their highest values is family
and community because they really care so much about what
that tradition and ongoing family life would be Like some
people would tell me that they would fantasize about being
(40:28):
able to climb out Everest when they're sixty. It's like, okay,
wellness is a really huge part of your highest value.
So if things don't fit into what you want to
be doing when you're sixty, then you should consider making
that highest value. So just my super easy tip of
tapping into what your fantasies are and deciding how those
might play into what you really really want in the world.
(40:50):
M Yes, yes, yes, yes yes. While you said that,
I was like, oh, yeah, this is what I fantasized about.
This is what I think about out and the random
things that look at on Instagram consistently, like that area
where it's like everything that you go to a lot
and they want you to click more. Yep, So just
(41:14):
look at your Instagram ad. My heart is so full.
I'm really glad that we're recording this so I can
like go back and take notes. Thank you for the
unapologetic way you exist. I saw your bi posts and
I was like, we exist, like of course, like queer
black women are at the forefront of changing the world. Yeah,
(41:35):
that's been such an interesting conversation across the board too.
But there's so many incredible queer Black women who are
doing so much incredible work. So Rachel, for people who
want to connect, where can they follow you and find
all your amazing resources. Most of my work happens on
Instagram and it's at Rachel dot cargo c A r
(41:56):
G as in girl l E and my site or
it holds all of my stuff Rachel Cargo dot com.
You can get access to the great and learn if
you want to learn along with me. Access to my bookstore, Elizabeth,
as well as some of my consultation work and just
some of the fun work that I do in other
freelance ways as well. And my foundation, the lovel And Foundation.
(42:19):
There's information there as well, and we provide free mental
health therapy sessions to black women and girls and for
the lovel And Foundation. Dot org is a huge meaningful
space if anyone wants to explore me and my work
as well. We're doing a lot of really great work
over there. Let's go. Thank you for being with us today,
(42:41):
thank you for inviting me. Any time you want to
come back, just let us right. We'll get a reoccurring
calendar dates that would perfect. Guys, that was so fun,
and um, I'm ready to give some advice. But before
we do that, let's take a great break. Okay, welcome back,
(43:14):
welcome back. It's time for us to give a lucky
listener some advice. What you got for us? All right, y'all,
this is a juicy letter. It reads, I'll get right
into it. I got myself into a predicament and now
I'm stuck for context. I work in a predominantly white
and male environment. She's black and she's from Molly to
(43:35):
be specific. This doesn't bother me too much because I
truly enjoy my job and I'm good at it. Good
for you, girl. I've been working there for about four years,
and I've moved up ever since. Okay, she bright climbing
the ladder. A little over a year ago, I got
a new coworker that is also black, and naturally we
just clicked. Okay, here we go. We're gonna call him Ben.
(43:58):
It was nice to finally have someone that looks like me.
I should pull it out that Ben is very attractive, smart,
and always smells good. Since been started, we've gotten closer
as we've had to work a few projects together. Ben
is also very flirty, and we've harmlessly flirted back and forth.
(44:19):
He's basically morphed into my work husband. He'd buy me
a random coffee, check on me when I'm not in
and even got me flowers on my birthday. It's not innocent,
don't say beautiful. Now to the sticky part, Ben is
also in a serious relationship. Matter of fact, he proposed
to his long term girlfriend. This is too messy for me, y'all.
(44:43):
This is a lot, so we're gonna tag team in
a little bit. She goes on to say, a few
months ago, we had to work together on a project
and he offered to finish at his place. Oh, since
he was expecting the delivery that needed to be signed for,
we ordered take out and worked out of his living room.
Not long after we finished work, we decided to watch
(45:04):
an episode of Queen of the South. Okay, and before
you we were locking lips. Girl, are you judging her?
No judgment, No judgment. She's over here saying we made
out and eventually had sex. It was mind blowing. She
also has a caveat. I'm also single and haven't had
(45:26):
sex in two years. She says, in a way, I
was very satisfied because I had countless fantasies about him.
And then MOMMYA, can you finish us up with this
last little portion of the letter? Sure, she goes on.
I felt really guilty afterwards. This is a whole engaged man.
(45:46):
I decided to avoid him for the next couple of weeks,
even though I craved him now more than ever. He
texted me multiple times to check on me and apologize
for putting me in a weird situation. He also admitted
that he couldn't stop thinking about me. One night, he
called me up and I answered because I was bored.
He drove a rude to me to apologize, and we
(46:07):
had sex again in his car the girl in the car.
My dilemma is that, even though a big part of
me knows how messed up this is, I kind of
don't want to stop. He doesn't either. I feel like
I don't have much to lose except living with a
heavy conscience. What should I do since he doesn't seem
(46:28):
to care. I feel so bad for his fiance. No,
I don't, but I also okay, she didn't sign her name?
What what should we call it? Um knows the truth
but doesn't want to admit it. M knows the truth,
but don't care. Yeah, alright, knows the truer, don't care
(46:50):
to be on her side, know the truth. Yes, she'd
be a messy, and she knows she'd be a messy.
But he's the whole last engaged man, and uh, he
needs to take some responsibility on a heavier end because
he's the one who's cheating. You know, she knows that
he wrong, but he is the one who was engaged
and got a fiance while he was flirting and buying
(47:11):
flowers and birthday presents. I mean, I agree that it
is more on him, right, because he's the person in relationship.
But my girl already says she feel bad about it.
And if you feel bad, you know you're doing something wrong.
What did Rachel say, You're not living your values highest
not living your highest value. I'm sure it's not to
be the other woman having said the sex in the
(47:33):
car was about to play, but that that's some of
the best sex I've ever had. It in the car,
But she knew what she was doing. Yeah, if you did,
if you didn't know about him being engaged and he
was just digging you down and then you found out
later than that be different. But since you know about
him being engaged and still going with the flow, I mean,
I think you're gonna have to either have a hard
conversation with him where he needs to address his partner.
(47:55):
And if she not down for an open relationship, which
you know she won't be, uh you know, I mean
she might, she might, but he wouldn't be speaking sucking
and ducking and ducking. And I just feel like, girl,
you deserve your own man, like you deserve to be
loved holy by somebody. Yes, this person is kind of
(48:19):
using you because they are emotionally attached to you and
they clearly like you, but they are so selfish that
they also want to do the cookie cutter, have a
wife and a fabulous wedding and have sex with you
on the side. Think about it like that, are you
invited to the wedding? Like girl? And I think ultimately
a lot of these advice letters come down to, like
(48:41):
what do you want for your life? Actually you bringing
up what Rachel is saying around like what are your values?
And if having secret sex you know, does it for you,
then this is I guess that highest purpose for you.
But if you're looking for a relationship. You call him
your work husband, are you looking for an actual husband?
(49:02):
Communication is just such a key part of that. I
definitely think you should encourage Ben to talk to his
fiance about well, no, not even not even I just
and in general, I do really feel like you should
just communicate with the people that are in your life
so they can make a choice about whether this is
something they want. Look, you know what you need to do,
(49:25):
because you wrote in saying it's a dilemma. You wrote
in a dissertation by a dissertation, talk about how messed
up this is. So just as hard as it is
not to have this man's mind blowing sex in the car.
It's not right. It's not right, and don't do it.
It's not right, and don't do it in a discussion.
(49:46):
And you know, as a you know, I've been single
a while and sometimes you do get some mind blowing sex,
and you are you know, you tore up, tore up
from the flow up. But a lot of times you
get you know, really right sex more than once. And
you got to believe that to be your truth because
for a while I thought, man, I ain't never gonna
get dick down like that again, and then guess what,
(50:08):
I got dick down like that again by somebody actually
was worthy, and it was better too. It was it
was probably better because that person and it was a
better person. It was an actual you know, it was
a better situation. He values you. Yeah, not just think
about that phone call he's gonna get right after y'all
(50:30):
finished fucking, and it's his wife. You're gonna want to
live with that, You don't. This is just like a
Nigerian movie. I watched this. Give her the name of
it so she can watch it and learn her fate.
So yeah, I mean, treat people the way you want
to be treated. Don't do no chicy stuff. And karma
(50:50):
is real just that part as well. By real, we
mean a bit. Oh and she comes back. You don't
know when she coming could be when you finally get
that husband. Oh no, I don't wish that on her.
I don't wish it on her. I'm just saying it
could happen. But also they have to work together. Still,
(51:10):
that's the part we didn't even touch that they're the
only two black people at a very white company. You're right,
she does have to address him. I would say, hey, Ben,
you know what we did is what we did, but
they don't do it again to No, we can't do
it anymore, and you gotta get reassigned. You gotta get resigned.
You can't be strong. Is there a world where they
(51:32):
can also be like? Look, slip up, We're still friends.
Can we just stop? I didn't try apology in a
car lead the second Every single conversation will end up
with them rolling around. Ye, the answer is don't fun
the merry man right here here for that And on
(51:55):
that note, we have learned so much. Thank you guys
for hanging out with us, learning more about intersectionality with
Rachel Cargo and her journey. Please go check out and
support her work in the world. This is a good time. Yeah,
we appreciate you guys tuning in. Please remember to share.
Thank you for everyone who's been supporting us and reviewing
(52:17):
because all of that really helps us make the best
show that we can. So okay, and we watched you
guys to come speaking with us on social hit us
up at Obama's or the Daughters on Instagram, O d
M Prop on Twitter and Obama's are the Daughters on
Facebook and if you need advice, you can email us
(52:37):
at O d podcast at gmail dot com. And if
you know someone else will need some advice in my way,
you'd love to help, Yes, please, But until then, in
the meantime, in between time, we'll see you all on
the internet and can't wait to see you next week.
By by You Down is a production of Shawndland Audio
(53:04):
and partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
Shawndland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I don't
(53:32):
like the guns sound. I didn't know those are guns.
I thought it was just Jamaican reggae sounds. It's reggae guns.
They blow out smoke a week. They don't have photos.
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