Gutsy Women (with Andra Day & Sen. Tammy Duckworth)

Hillary has always drawn inspiration from the “gutsy women” around her -- she and Chelsea even wrote a book about them. On today’s episode, we hear from two women who have defied expectations, overcome obstacles, and made some history along the way. First, Hillary speaks with Grammy-nominated singer and award-winning actor Andra Day. For the new film The United States vs. Billie Holiday, Andra immersed herself in the life of a woman who was supremely talented and fearless in shining a light on America's ugly history of lynching, even as she battled her own demons. Then Hillary talks to Tammy Duckworth, the senator from Illinois, about her new memoir, Every Day Is a Gift, about battling discrimination and picking herself up after loss, including a near fatal helicopter crash while serving in the Army National Guard. In a timely follow-up conversation, Hillary checks in with Senator Duckworth about her response to the rise in hate crimes against Asian Americans.

Senator Tammy Duckworth is an Iraq War Veteran, Purple Heart recipient and former Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs who was among the first handful of Army women to fly combat missions during Operation Iraqi Freedom. She was elected to the U.S. Senate in 2016 after representing Illinois’s Eighth Congressional District in the U.S. House of Representatives for two terms. Tammy’s new memoir is titled Every Day Is a Gift.

Andra Day started out her career as an R&B singer and songwriter, with her debut album Cheers to the Fall, which was nominated for Best R&B Album at the 2016 Grammys. She joined Hillary to perform during the 2016 campaign, and performed in the virtual Inaugural Parade for President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris. She portrays Billie Holiday in The United States vs. Billie Holiday for which she received the Golden Globe for Best Actress and was nominated for an Academy Award. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both. Today,
I'm talking about and talking to gutsy women. I have
always been interested in the stories of individual women and

(00:21):
the impact that their lives have had on not only
themselves and their families, but you know, on professions, on politics,
on the economy, on science, you name it, and Chelsea
and I wrote an entire book on this subject, actually
called the Book of Gutsy Women. Because from the very
time she was a tiny little girl, I would tell

(00:43):
her stories about women I admired. But there was a
big difference. When she was a little girl, there were
women doing things that she could herself see an experience,
like her pediatrician was a woman. The mayor of Little Rock, Arkansas,
where she was born, was a woman. That wasn't the
case for me when I was a little girl, and
my mother encouraged me to go to the library and

(01:06):
to check out books about Amelia Earhart or Eleanor Roosevelt,
or Maria tal Chief, the fabulous Native American ballerina, and
so many others. Later in the show, we'll be hearing
from Tammy Duckworth in a Rock war veteran, a mom

(01:27):
and now senator from the great state of Illinois. But first,
I'm talking to the one and only Andrew Day. I
first encountered Andrew Day through her music. Andrew is an
incredible singer with two Grammy nominations to show for it,
and I got to see her talent up close when

(01:48):
she joined me on the campaign trail in and then
in January, she performed her song Rise Up as part
of the virtual Inauguration parade for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
Now she's starring in her first film as the iconic
Billie Holiday in the United States Versus Billie Holiday, directed

(02:12):
by Lee Daniels. Andre is following in the footsteps of
two other gutsy women, Diana Ross and Audre McDonald, who
have played Billie Holiday on screen and stage. I thought
Andrew's performance just blew the top off. To prepare for
the part, Andre immersed herself in the life of a

(02:33):
woman who was supremely talented and fearless in shining a
light on America's ugly history of lynching, even as she
battled her own demons. And of course, Andrew does all
her own singing in the film. The night before our conversation,
she won a Golden Globe Award for Best Actress for

(02:57):
her performance. I caught her at photo shoot the next
day where she was borrowing a laptop. It was a
really busy day, but I could not be happier to
be able to talk to this extraordinary person. Oh, I
am hugging you so much right now. I hope you

(03:18):
can feel every out of it. Oh my god, how
are you feeling? The day after winning the Golden Globe.
I'm still like, I don't even know the words. I
was trying to figure that out say. I was like,
what do I feel? Gratitude? For sure? The one thing
I say and I will always say, is God is great,
you know what I mean, And you put such incredible

(03:38):
people in my path. I mean the way these people
poured into me, you know, the way my team and
people have supported me, and people like you have supported
in that in ways to me that don't even make sense,
you know, But God's so great. So I just feel
just it just makes me think of everybody who has
been a part of this whole journey, and it's just
like a blessing. I'm so grateful when you were chosen

(03:59):
by Lead Annuals to do this part. How did you
first react? Because you had not been acting? I mean,
you've got the most amazing you know, musical ability, and
I personally, you know, I love your singing. But thank you.
This was a real challenge for you, and I know
you give a lot of credit to your team, But
what did you have to do inside to be able

(04:20):
to get there? I had to do a lot. And
it's funny because when I got the role, When Lee
told me I got the role, my reaction wasn't necessarily
like Okay, I'm so great, I'm ready to do It
was sort of like are you sure? You looked at
the reactors like why, I'm not, Like it's not a
good idea. He's like, wow, you're annoying just come to say,
you know. But once I really prayed about it, and
like dove In, I mean, it was everything, you know,

(04:42):
because she's such a dynamic woman, But it was everything.
It was studying addiction. It was sitting with heroin addicts
and former addicts and learning how wow did you do that? Yes? Oh? Absolutely?
And actually I'll share a story with you because I
met a few. But there was a pair in particular,
it was his sponsor and he owned the sober living home.
And then it was a young kid who so he

(05:02):
was thirty years sober, and the young kid was only
like a year into his sobriety. And this young kid
is teaching me, you know, where the nylon goes above
the muscle, you know, and and just how to shoot
up with not just they're used to plastic needles. Back
then she would have been using glass, which was our
track marks were so big. But and at a certain
point he zoned like I see the sweat building on

(05:23):
his brow, I see his pupils dilating, and he's locked
into that moment. And so I asked that. I'm like,
is it really okay like for him to be here?
Like are we sure this is? He said, trust me,
he's a big fan of music. This is a part
of his recovery. It's you know, I got it, you
know what I mean. But that kid, what he gave
me in that moment was everything I needed to know
about the need, about the mental illness behind it, the trauma,

(05:45):
you know. So on top of that, it was working
with my acting coach, Tasha Smith, and working closely with
Lee and Tom Jones to get the voice right, and
hopefully the singing voice, once I get it rehabilitated, will
be the one you recognized. But my vocal cords are like,
what are you doing well? But you, I mean you
went all in. I mean you took up smoking, which

(06:08):
Billy Holliday did. You lost a lot of weight, you
cut your hair, yeah, hair that you had in order
to prepare. So what I loved is it you inhabited
Billy Holliday without imitating her. Yeah. That's actually a blessing
to hear, because that's what Lee would tell me. It's
got to be an interpretation, not an impersonation. And I

(06:30):
think that's why, like you said, I don't drink, I
don't smoke, I don't cuss. I'm not. For me, I
took a vow of abstinence almost about seven years ago,
so I'm not. I don't engage in that way either.
But for me, that's why I had to be just
generally more sexual in my behavior, you know, just cussing
a lot, because she had like a PhD in putting
a sentence together with cuss words. And then the smoking,

(06:51):
the cigarettes, the drinking alcohol. I had to really feel
it in my body, I think, because these weren't things
that she just did socially, like I mean, the woman
would wake up and have like kind of game, the
way you might have a cup of coffee, you know.
So right, she lived hard. She lived hard. So it
was just in order to really become her, as you said,
in order to I had to feel some of these things.
And honestly, like, yeah, it took a toll, you know,

(07:14):
but I would do it exactly the same way again
because her legacy, this is the Godmother of civil rights,
Her legacy deserves I believe that level of dedication because
she fought that hard for us, you know what I mean.
She did, And obviously it's a terrible story of her struggles,
and it's made all the worst by the US government's

(07:36):
campaign to destroyer to imprisoner, which is shown in the movie,
and to stop her from singing a particular song called
Strange Fruit, which helped to galvanize an anti lynching movement
across America, because Billie Holiday understood that she could use

(08:00):
her artistry, her talent, her voice to try to sing
about something that was so terrible. Did you know about
the song before you played? Billie Holliday. I didn't know
about the song. I did because she is my biggest inspiration.
That's where the Day comes from in my name. So
I love the relationship between her and Lester Young, and

(08:20):
he gave her the name Lady Day. So I've been
a huge fan since I was like eleven years old.
And the first two songs I heard was one called
Sugar and then I heard Strange Fruit, and so you
can imagine hearing that at eleven, You're like, what's going on?
Why do I feel different inside? You know? But what
I recognized and that was like sacrifice. I just felt
bad for this woman singing whatever is happening and whatever

(08:41):
she's talking about his real loss. You know. I think
what makes me so happy about this movie is most
people know her, you know, as it's great jazz singer,
but troubled, troubled troubled, which was so not the case,
you know what I mean. She was fighting for lives,
for our actual, very lives, and so it was her
singing this song in defiance of the government and and

(09:03):
the death of him until that reinvigorated third Good Marshal
in the movement. I don't believe we would have civil
rights the way we know it today, if it were
not for her singing this song. When you realize she
was doing all of that police civil rights, you go, wow,
you know what I mean, Like they had to silence
her because those are strong shoulders, really powerful strong shoulders.
I think that's one of the many reasons why the
film is so important. I kept thinking how brave she was.

(09:26):
You know, she could have made a deal, made it clear. Okay, fine,
you sat me to prison. You know, you kind of
entrapped me with drugs. Okay, I'm gonna go back to
my career. I won't sing that song. She never promise
that would she know she never would, and she never did.
I mean, I'm sure she had moments where she's like
because listen, there were moments when she would leave certain

(09:48):
clubs after singing that song and the police would actually
pursue her, shooting into her car, like with the intent
to kill her. So she could have easily said alright, fine,
you know, and still made a splash and still had
a great career, and still and probably would have had
a better career, you know, even though she was a superstar,
but probably would have had a better career. But it's
just for that woman to be portrayed so frequently, you know,

(10:11):
and to still stick to it and to still sing
this song and to hold a mirror up to American culture,
because I think that was the huge thing at the time,
was that I think America wanted to look at lynching
as they were comfortable looking at it as this horrific
act done by sort of a fringe group of you know, racists,
but it's not. It was a culture. We'll be right back.

(10:43):
I'm curious to know when did you first discover singing
not only something that you were good at because a
lot of us like to sing and then we learned
we're not good at it, but that it was a
really unique expression for you. M M. Yeah. Me, it
was so much a part of my life for my
entire life. My mother can sing, my father can sing.

(11:04):
They always have music on in the house. So my
earliest memories are of my dad washing the car and
us singing together, where my mom would be kind of
be in the kitchen and she has this dance move
that she does. It's like burned into my memory and singing,
you know, all the time. But I believe it was
like around six years old and it was singing Whitney Houston.
Honestly that it was like we love just listening to
her in the house, and so that that I think

(11:26):
around six years old, really singing Whitney was the first
time I realized and my family realized like, oh wow,
you could actually singing. You have a nice voice, you know.
And where did you grow up? I grew up in
southeast San Diego. So yeah, my father was in the military,
so and spent time in Detroit, where my father is from,
born in Seattle, you know. So it's like definitely a
military touring, you know what I mean. And so and

(11:46):
then he was stationed at the base in San Diego.
And that's why I grew up spent my life. And
where was the first time that you sang publicly outside
of you know, washing cars and in your kitchen and
so um, publicly at Stually, I went to a performing
arts school and I started at the school when I
was in the sixth grade, when I was a loving
dance was my main thing at the time, actually, and

(12:07):
I just did like choral ensemble and all those those
different things. And I just have a love for just
music and for creating and for you know, the stage
and for the arts. You know, I love the idea
of performing arts schools because I think there's so many
kids who could benefit from going to such a school
if we had enough of them. But over the years,

(12:27):
you've used your voice too, as one of your songs
says stand up for something. And you know, I obviously
loved having you with me on the campaign trail, and
then I was thrilled with your performance of Rise Up,
one of my all time favorite songs, as part of

(12:47):
the Biden Harris inauguration. How did that feel to you
being part of that historic moment, especially with you know,
Vice President Kamala Harris taking office. Yes, I mean, and
I have and I just you know, learned this from
my mother and from my grandmother and from Billie Holiday.
And you know, watching women like you, like VP Kamala

(13:08):
here is like Michelle Obama. I mean, when women are
in positions of leadership, it has proven the numbers are there,
economies do better, you know what I mean. And so
for me, it's like it was incredible, it was historic.
It was a moment after so much darkness, a moment
for hope. And it's amazing to see her face in there.
And you know, having met her, and I mean one
of the first things we did was prayed together, and so,

(13:30):
as I said, I have such a need and a
passion to see more women in positions of leadership. Well,
and one of the things we've learned during this year
of pandemic is that countries run by women have done
better they have There you go, which is an important
lesson that I would like to see imparted. How have
you managed the pandemic? You had finished filming before that.

(13:54):
We did, We got everything in the can. We finished
filming December, literally right before everything kicked up. So managing
during the pandemic, I mean, it's just you know, just
you know what it is. It's just gratitude, because like
I sat down and I was just remember thinking like, man,
this changes everything. How are we going to do this?
How are we going to do A B and C?
And then I stopped and I realized, like, people are

(14:16):
choosing between shelter and food right now, you know what
I mean. So I just had to really stop and
just be like, you should be super super grateful. That's
not a choice that you have to make. You can
take care of your family and you guys can sustain,
so actually figure out how you can serve in this
time if you really want to write and so um yeah,
we actually paired with this charity Give Directly or Incredible
and started this I Give Directly charity, which was just

(14:39):
getting money into the hands of people who needed it
the most. And I like that a lot because I
think it gave people dignity to make choices with their
own money. So it was beautiful. That's how we focused. Well,
I'm glad to hear you underscore the importance of gratitude.
I believe that with all my heart. In fact, I
have a phrase about the discipline of gratitude and how
people you know should practice it like we practice, you know,

(15:00):
being healthy or you know, trying to exercise in a
lot of others. I love that because sometimes you don't
want to feel gratitude. No, I mean you you almost
you almost rejected, grateful for what you know went wrong.
I'm too upset to worry about gratitude. But you know
you have now You've had multiple hit songs, a starring

(15:21):
role in a film under your belt. Up, where where
do you see your career going? Do you want to
do more acting? You know? It's so funny all my
co stars would laugh at me right now, because when
I was on the movie set, I was like, yo,
I'm out, my vocal cords hate me, my body hates me.
I was like no. But now, like kind of being
on the other side of things, I think I do

(15:42):
not a lot. I'm not gonna be honest, not a
lot as far as acting goes. Just maybe a few more.
Just whatever really speaks to me and grabs me the
same way Billy did. But the thing I really really
have a need to tell is our stories, you know,
So I would like to. I started writing some things
and developing a few things, and I love to co write,
co direct, and co produce pictures because you know, Billy

(16:03):
Holiday story is one in a million stories that have
the narrative has been suppressed and the narrative has been changed. Right,
That's how sort of systemic inequality works. That's how oppression works,
is you have to control the narrative. So I just
feel like there's so many great stories of our contribution,
and I think telling the truth of those narratives is
going to be integral in really dismantling this system, piece

(16:26):
by piece by piece so that we can actually, you know,
have space for equality, space for everybody. I think that
is the most important task facing us as a country. Yeah,
but that does take a lot of bravery, because you've
got to be willing to stand up and tell stories
that are uncomfortable and and hear those stories and learn
from those stories. And I wanted to ask you about bravery.

(16:48):
I mean, when you look back now, what do you
think is the bravest thing you've ever done? What do
you look at and feel like, Wow, that really was hard. Wow. Well, listen,
I gotta tell you this movie because I did not,
Oh my god, I was when I tell you, I
was trying to run from this movie in every single way,

(17:08):
you know. First of all, as simply as I can
put it, I did not want to suck. I did
not want to be terrible, and I was a hundred
percent certain I would be. I had never This is
my first acting role, you know, on on screen. And
I didn't want to dishonor Billy Holiday's legacy because I
love her so, so so much. And the other thing
is I didn't want to dishonor Diana's legacy, right, who

(17:30):
played her so beautifully in nineteen seventy two. And it
was such a feat to get that film done. You know,
it was just so many layers to why. I was like,
but the main thing was just really interestingly enough something
that I believe God used this role in her her spirit.
She worked out of me, not out of me. It's
still working on it, but I have just really deep
seated feelings of just unworthiness and inadequacy. I never feel

(17:52):
like I belong. I have a fraud mentality, Like I
feel like I'm a fraud every place that I go,
and I'm overcoming that is like difficult, it's impossible. It's
why when they told me the first time you wanted
to call me, I was like no, and they're like
why not? I was like, what are I talking to
her about? She's brilliant, she's so smart. I didn't even
go to college, like or graduate, so I'm like, why
would I talk to But it's that constant feeling of

(18:14):
just not being good enough. But you know, it was
a prayer, actually was a scripture about walking on water
and doing an act of great faith that made me
do it meetingly. His fire, his dedication to Billie holiday
fearless storytelling, and his need to honor her legacy and
to make her a hero. It was all those things
that made me say yes ultimately and dyeing in and

(18:36):
we are so glad you did. Thank you. But I
will tell you every day I say he would laugh
at me because every day on set I'd be like, yeah,
I think today is the day they're going to realize
I'm no good and they're gonna fire me, like, shut up,
shut up. You know what that is called. It's called
the imposter syndrome, and it is a particular problem for talented,

(18:57):
smart women. Wow, I wonder we could do a whole
show on that. My dear, welcome back. You know. I
can't tell you how excited I am to talk to you.
And I know this, of all days, the day after
your big award has to be jam packed with everybody

(19:18):
in the world wanting to talk with you and do
an interview with you. But it just means so much
to me. If anybody deserved to have their hard work
and their talent and their spirit recognized, it's you, my friend,
and I only wish you the very best. Oh my gosh,
I love you, Thank you, my friend. Thank you makes
me so happy. The United States versus Billie Holiday is

(19:46):
now streaming on Hulu. My next guest is someone whose
career I have followed for a long time, Senator Tammy Duckworth.
You know I on I knew Tammy's story, but she
has a new memoir out, and in reading it, I
learned she's even braver than I realized. It's called every

(20:10):
Day is a Gift. It's just out today. I heard
you to track it down, and I'm delighted to be
talking with her. Hey, how are you? Oh my gosh, Tammy,
I can't tell you how excited I am to talk
with you. And let's get right into it, because I
know you're a pretty busy woman and I want to

(20:32):
respect that. So it seems like an understatement, Senator, just
say there's a lot going on right now. How are
you and your family and those two adorable little children
of yours getting alog? Oh my gosh, Well, you know, um,
we're muddling through, just like all the other working families
in Illinois and across the country are working through it.
My six year old think goodness has gone back to

(20:55):
in person classes because I was a miserable the carded teacher.
I'm not trained, you know, I always had respect for teachers,
but boy, I am not trained to do that. Um
and my that's Abigail and my leap. Her will be
three in April, so she's she's rambunctious us. I'll get up.
I can't believe she's three. I remember when she was

(21:17):
in your lap and you were breastfeeding on the floor
of the Senate taking care of a baby. You know,
I want to get to your book because I thought
it was, you know, really great. Thank you. Let me
start though, for listeners who may not know who you are.
You're a veteran. You received a purple Heart at two
thousand and four for your service in a rock and

(21:38):
while you were there, an attack on the black Hawk
helicopter that you were co piloting resulted in a crash
and eventually in the amputation of both your legs. In
a c Span interview, Senator, just a few months after
the attack, I found you amazingly upbeat and optimistic. Where

(22:00):
did you find that strength? Yeah, well, I'd had my
darkest moment I've ever had, probably within the first two
weeks after I woke up. So the attack happened on
November twelve. I woke up in the hospital eleven days
later at Walter read. My memory ends with trying to
land the aircraft, and I went through a pretty dark

(22:20):
period where I thought, well, remember when we landed the aircraft,
But I thought that I had crashed the aircraft and
it was my fault and I deserved to lose my legs.
I go into this spiral down, into this depth of despair,
and then I find out no, actually we landed it.
That I fought until my last breath to actually help
land that aircraft. And once I found that out, I've
been fined ever since. Hillary. I mean, you know, I've

(22:41):
been just so grateful that I'm alive. And I feel
like the book is called every Day as a Gift,
because every day since that day for me has been
a gift. You really describe a process that is all
too common for the men and women who serve our country,
and especially over the last twenty plus years, who have
been in and out of combat. You know, the sense
of responsibility and duty really above all. But your journey

(23:05):
starts in Thailand, and you write about what it was
like to be the daughter of a Thai Chinese mother
and a white American father living in Thailand, and frankly,
the discrimination that you faced as a child of mixed background.
What was that like and what do you think that

(23:26):
experience so early in your life prepared you for well, Hilary.
You know, growing up in Southeast Asia in the seventies
post Vietnam, there written a lot of amoration children and
the only amoration children around were the children of American
gis and largely prostitutes and sex workers, you know. And
there is rio stigma associated with that because most American

(23:50):
gis left their Thai or Vietnamese girlfriends behind with the children. Um.
Not many stayed and married and created a family the
way my father did. And so it just brought great
shame on my mom because everybody had looked at her,
just assumed that she was something that she was not.
I even talked in the book about how there was
this whole dichotomy between being scorned as by Ratio as

(24:13):
a half breed child. But on the other hand, there's
these standards of beauty that are embraced where people wanted
to buy me for my mom, and my mom was accosted,
you know, by folks wanting to buy me. But it
gave me this viewpoint of America that showed for me
as now as a Senator, the struggle that immigrants go through,
and its struggle especially last year. You know, I certainly

(24:35):
wouldn't compare my experience to what Black Americans have gone
through in the Black Lives Matter protests, but I will
tell you it gave me an insight into that struggle
to be accepted and my whole life. People say, well,
where are you from? Really? I'm like, I'm American. My
ancestors have been here since before the revolution, and like, no, no, no,
where are you from really? And then you and your

(24:56):
family moved to Hawaii and you had a series of setbacks,
You had economic setbacks, you had all kinds of difficulties
kind of just keeping the family together. I would imagine
that also gave you a kind of grounding in what
it's like to have to really struggle. I have never

(25:18):
worked harder. My family has never worked harder than when
we were poor. There was at one point when I
was fifteen, sixteen years old and the only person in
my family with a job, and I was the one,
you know, trying to help us pay the rent and
put food on the table. And my mom at first
when we moved to couldn't come with us because of
immigration laws even though she had American children, she was

(25:39):
married to an American. We didn't have the money for
the visas, and and and the visas would have taken
a while also, so she couldn't even come with us.
And and I talked about, you know, trying to be
mom at fifteen, you know, to my thirteen year old brother,
and trying to buck up my dad to keep looking
for jobs. At this point, he've been unemployed for three
years since, still looking for a job. And finally, you know,
taking matters into my own hands, after I blew up

(26:02):
at my dad and went and found a job. What
happened after Hawaii? Where did you go next? So my
parents moved from Hawaii to Virginia because my dad, being
a veteran and prior civil service, was able to get
a job at GS four job Hillary, Oh boy, Okay,
that's a real entry level job. That is like, yeah,
very very very entry level. I think it was maybe

(26:22):
ten dollars a year. And they left me behind because
I had at this point been accepted to the University
of Hawaii, and then after that I went to d C.
We moved to Virginia to be with my folks, and
I decided to go get my masters, and I was
accepted into George Washington University. So you see that climb
out of poverty and what it took to go step
by step by step. You know. Just being able to

(26:42):
finish high school for me was a miracle because I
would have been more used to my family dropping out
of high school and working two jobs. So they had
to sacrifice to keep me in school. And so when
did you decide to join the military. How did that
come about? So you got your master's at GW you
and then what happened? So I finished my first year

(27:03):
in the Berlin Wall was coming down, so all I
was watching people from Czechoslovakia as a country was splitting
in half, running for the border, everything that they had,
trying to get on these trains. It just for me
brought back all those memories of me as an American
with all of my privilege, watching Vietnamese boat people put
everything that they had and their children into a rickety
boat and going on into the ocean, you know. And

(27:25):
so it brought back all these memories. And I wanted,
I knew I wanted to serve. I thought I would
serve in the Foreign service. I mean, you having been
Secretary of State. It was like, my, you know, my
dream job isn't being an ambassador. Let alone you know
something that you did. There were guys in my class
who like, kemmy, just go take our OTC and learn
a little bit about the military. And I went off
to basic training and fell in love with the great

(27:48):
great What was it about the military? Was it the structure,
the sense of mission and purpose? Yeah. I described this
in the book because it was pretty miserable. You know,
the girl starts as a yelling age. I mean, it's
a miserable time. But it was a pure meritocracy. It
was all about are you willing to step up and
help carry the load. And they didn't care that I

(28:10):
was a little Asian girl. You know, they didn't care
anything about me. They just wanted to know if I
could shoot straight. And I was willing to help carry
the load, you know, when the extra ammunition got heavy
to duff with, step up and help carry the ammunition literally,
you know, on on a march. My first time in
my life where I was judged purely on how much
effort I was willing to put into it. And don't

(28:30):
get me wrong, I mean I I you know, I
talked about this in the book. I described locking myself
in the lotrine and crying and then coming back out.
It's like, Okay, it's hard, but I love what you
say about it being a meritocracy. I mean, it's one
of the reasons why the military still remains such a
ladder of opportunity for you know, young people, whether it's

(28:51):
urban or rural settings, who want to figure out how
to get themselves upwardly mobile and find the military as
a great way to do that. And so you you
were in Rozie and then did you join the reserves?
At that point, I did. What you do is you
make this list. It's a wish list you give to
the army, and then the army decide. So one of

(29:12):
the instructors, i was the only female in my class
at the time, said everyone, you've got to write down
combat arms jobs, even if you want to become, you know,
a finance officer. Except for Duckworth, she's female. She doesn't
have to write any down. Oh come on, I know.
And my instructors actually lied to me and said women
couldn't serve in combat. But there were two combat jobs,
air defense, artillery and aviation, and so I applied for

(29:34):
a Reserve Forces commission in order to get aviation to
become a helicopter pilot. Did you see this as a
potentially long term career that you thought, maybe this is
what I want to do, or did you still think
of it as a reserve officer duty. I only ever
wanted to do it part time. I still was pursuing
my dream of the Foreign Service, like I I still
to this day. You know, I would love to be

(29:55):
you know, that young junior Foreign Service officer stamping passports
in it know, in a mission out in the boonies somewhere.
I I just it's because I watched ambassador left it.
I left it what I watched, you know what it is?
My dad at one point worked for the United Nations
refugee programs and he would be bringing bags of rice
with the American flag on it and delivering that to

(30:17):
refugee camps. I got to see watch American ambassador cut
ribbon openings on health clinics and places like that, and
I just, you know, the book is about it's a memoir,
but it's also my sort of a love story to
my country, to my nation, you know, And so no,
I I still wanted to become a foreign service officer,
so I finished my master started my PhD, and I

(30:39):
was actually working for Rotary International helping Rotarians do humanitarian
missions around the world. When um I was deployed to Iraq.
You were there during some of the worst fighting, and
you were, you know, in that terrible attack that resulted
in the crash and your injury. When you were released
from the hospital, what were thinking about in terms of

(31:01):
the future that you and your husband wanted to build together. Well,
during my recovery at the hospital, all I wanted to
do was go back to my unit. Like I put
every effort I had in trying to regain my flight status.
You know, my whole life, my superpower had always spenned
my willingness to work hard. I mean I was never
the smartest kid in the class. You know, I got
mostly a's and some beast but I was never the

(31:23):
straight A student. I was never the one who would
win the scholarship. For me, working hard was my superpower
and I had to come to the realization at Walter
Read that my superpower wasn't going to rescue me and
get me back with my unit. And that was hard
and at the time I had met Dick Durban and
Barack Obama, and Dick Durbin actually was the one who

(31:44):
gave me his number, his personal telephone number, and he
said to Tammy, anybody have any problems, you call me.
So I of course immediately abused the privilege and I
started calling him because we had a lot of problems
that well to read and this is something you also,
because she were working this issue in the Senate too,
and I was like, sir, like somebody is not getting paid, sir.

(32:05):
The families are sleeping on the floor because there's no
clean places for them. To say that isn't invested with Molde.
And after about ten months of this, I mean, Dick
Durbin essentially became the unofficial ombudsman for the patients at
Walter Read So I was still a patient at the
hospital undergoing surgeries when Dick Durban said, Tommy, I think
you shoul think about running for Congress. You know, we
need a voice that understands what our troops are going through.

(32:27):
I remember being on the floor of the Senate as
you do, waiting for votes and and just chatting when
Dick Durban told me about you. I can remember it
absolutely clearly. He said, I've met this amazing veteran, this
woman who has had a really serious injury, lost her legs,

(32:47):
but she's become the advocate for all the patients at
Walter Read. I can remember saying that and him saying,
and I'm trying to convince her to run for Compress.
And I said, well, don't you think you got a
let her? He first, Dick, I mean, come on, give her,
give her a little bit of time. But how did
that unfold in terms of Dick Durban spotting your talent,

(33:09):
that incredible energy and can do spirit that you do have, Tammy,
and making it his mission to persuade you to run
for office. I think he just had really good timing
because at that point I realized I couldn't get back
to my unit, and I was lost. Right my whole
adult life, my mission was to serve my country, either
into foreign service or in the military and hopefully both

(33:30):
and and I had no mission. And this is why
we see so many of our troops fall into self
medication and mental health issues and homelessness, that this downward
spiral because they lose that mission, they lose their camaraderie,
their buddies, and Dick durban came along and gave me
a new mission and challenged me. My joke now when
he talks about seeing me in the hospital and inviting
me to run for Congress, and he asked me while

(33:51):
I was still medicated, And that's my excuse. What did
it for me was Dick Durbin saying, we have no
one with that with your voice can talk about what
our troops are going through. And so we said, what
the heck? And did it? What year was this? Said Tammy.
This was at the end of two thousand and five.
But I lost, and um, but you put up a

(34:12):
great fight. I did put up a grid and we
won the majority that year in the House. But I
wasn't part of it, and I was just devastated. I
locked myself in my bathroom for three days and cry
because I was the only place that I did not
get self service. So I sat in my bathtub and
cried for three days. And then I got the call
offering me a position as the State of Illinois Director

(34:34):
of Veterans Affairs on the Governor's cabinet. So you go
to work for the state and then you decide to
run again. Well, I go to work with the state,
and we actually took Illinois from being in forty eight
and the nation for veteran services to the top two
in the nation for veteran services with a lot of
innovative programs. But then I get asked by Barack Obama
once he was elected to serve at the federal v A.

(34:57):
And after about two years of that, I got really frustrated.
It can happen, It can happen. I got really frustrated,
which is a bureaucracy and all the things that I
realized a lot of what I wanted to fix with
legislative and that's what I decided to run for Congress again.
And one I remember, and once you were in Congress,
it became very clear that you know, you wanted to

(35:20):
prove that you could be a member of Congress that
would actually make life better for people. And you also
were a staunch advocate for women's rights and roles for
the rights and roles of minorities, for immigrants. You really
carved out a reputation in the House, Tammy, and then

(35:42):
you decided to run for the Senate. How did you
decide that? You know that I was pretty happy in
the House, I had been re elected, I've had my baby, Abigail,
and I was on maternity leave when the talk started
about the fact that Mark Kirk was up for re election,
the Republican who had at one uh Barack Obama's old seat,

(36:03):
and who would run and my name was in the mix.
People kept calling me. I was like, folks on maternity leave,
My god, let me have my time at my newborn.
But Illinois primaries very early. It's in March, so you
would have to declare by March of the previous year
to really have a good run. So I'm on aternity leave. Finally,
we decided that the opportunity to be in the Senate

(36:24):
was that opportunity, or the train was leaving the station,
and if I wanted to not get on that train,
that's fine. I could just keep running for re election.
But the idea of being in the Senate and being
able to represent my entire state again, it was really
what moved me to run. So I decided that, Okay,
this is the time to do it, and we just
took a deep breath and jumped. And it was miserable

(36:45):
trying to be a mom of a newborn and run
for a Senate and be a congresswoman was horrendous. I
can't imagine, Tammy. I mean, I've done one at a time,
but you were doing all three. But before we move on,
I just want to say a word about your journey
within fertility and IVF, because you're write about that. I

(37:08):
do you know. I really appreciate your speaking out about
your own experience. Thank you. I decided to put that
in the book because I mean, I put my fertility
on hold. My GUYD of college is said to me
my VA gynecologists like when I talked to her when
I was just turning forty and saying, I think we're
going to try to have kids, and she's like, well,
you know, you're you're towards the end of your time.
But that's what we professional women do. We give up

(37:29):
our fertility for our careers. But thank goodness, there are
the ways that we can help you get pregnant. But
the v A does not have fertility services, at least
they didn't at the time. So she referred me to
the Companion Hospital and I went to that fertility clinic
and a very nice female doctor didn't even see me
in a clinic. She came out and She sat with
me in the waiting room and said, Honey, you're gonna

(37:51):
be forty three soon. Your chances of getting pregnant, even
with fertility services is less than five percent. You should
just go home and enjoy your husband. And I believed her, though, yeah, right.
And it wasn't until I was giving a speech at
like professional women conferences and stuff as a congresswoman and
the question got asked about how do you have work
life balance, and I said, well, I don't have work

(38:12):
life violence. I just worked because I'm going to be
forty three now and I'm never gonna be able to
have children as much as I wanted to. And a
woman there came up to me and said, here's my doctor.
You go see him. He's knocked up every professional woman
in the Chicago area over the age of forty the
Sisterhood networks. But this is why I put it in
the book Hillary, because she was open with me, a
total stranger. And then she called me like every month

(38:35):
for six months until I finally went. And when I
went to see that doctor, the fertility doctor at Northwestern
University Hospital in Chicago, he said, who told you that
you couldn't get pregnant? And I said who, And he goes, Oh,
Catholic institution, I said, what, he goes. They don't believe
in in vitro fertilization. So I for four years was
a candidate for in vitro and I was told that

(38:59):
I was not. I talked about this in a book
about just how angry and betrayed I felt that a
doctor she should have said to me, well, there are
these other procedures, we can't perform them here because we're
a Catholic institution, goes, you know, you should go somewhere else. No,
she didn't even tell me about them. She just told me,
there are no reproductive services that can work for you

(39:19):
at forty two years old. You're gonna be forty three.
Just go home and enjoy your husband. By the way,
my husband loved that when I came home and told
him the doctor told me to just enjoy my husband.
And in eighteen months from the day that I saw
my that Dr Confino at Northwestern, I was pregnant. Thank
goodness that that woman came up to you at that
event and told you to go get a second opinion.

(39:40):
When you got into the Senate, you found that, you know,
there were problems in the way that people were treated.
There weren't changing stations and the women's bathrooms. I remember
that very well, and I think you also advocated for
changing stations in the men's bathrooms in case that where
ever to be useful. We talked briefly about your second

(40:02):
daughter and when you gave birth to her, in being
coming the first Senator to give birth while in office,
that was a huge landmark. And then to bring Miley
to the floor of the Senate with you. And I
don't know if this is true or not, but I
read that, you know, there were some senators focused on

(40:23):
the logistics, which is always you know, the refuge of
those who want to say no, even asking about the
baby's dress code. I mean, what was the baby going
to be wearing on the floor of the Senate. So
here you are, you have to take her with you
because you're breastfeeding. Did you feel the sense of historic
change that you add little Miley represented? I did not,

(40:47):
to be honest, because I'm pregnant and I know you
know I'm about you know, as I'm approaching my due date.
I know the Democrats we needed every single vote, and
I knew that I couldn't take family leave when I
gave birth because the rules of the Senate are if
you take leave, you can't introduce legislation and you can't vote.
I just was just trying to figure out how I'm

(41:09):
going to get to work when they won't let babies
at my workplace. Um, and which is what every other
working mom does, right, How am I going to go
to work if they won't let me have the baby
at my workplace and I have to go into work.
But she's ten days old. I can't just leave her
with someone. By the way, Herston Jila Brand went through
this as well, but she could enter the Senate through
the cloak room, but I can't because there are steps

(41:31):
into it. So I had to change the rules. But
you're right, yeah, oron hats was the one who wanted
to know if the baby was going to wear a
hat or no hat, and whether it was going to
whether the baby was gonna have a blazer or like
he was worried about the dress code. But I remember thinking,
she's a baby, her head gets quote. They all wear beanies.
I'm not taking her hat off just to go vote.
But I did throw a blazer on her for the

(41:52):
vote in her one season, We're taking a quick break.
Stay with us. You know, I wanted to include you
in this episode about gutsy women because you exemplify it,

(42:16):
from adapting to your life first in Thailand than in America,
to your military service, your recovery from a devastating injury,
your groundbreaking work as a member of first the House
and then the Senate, and your experiences as a working mom.
I wonder, what do you see as the gutsiest thing

(42:36):
you've ever had to do? Um? I think probably facing
myself after a failure. I think coming out of that
bathrooms six, climbing out of my tub in two thousand
and six and going Okay, I gotta face the world
and what else can I do. It's facing the loss
of my mission, my identity as a helicopter pilot. I think,

(43:00):
just like picking myself back up each time and putting
one foot in front of the other. It's going from
being a child of you know, of relative privilege growing
up in Southeast Asia, um, you know, of an American dad,
to being in Hawaiian another poverty and you know, being
willing to go through the garbage to find you know, uh,
struggling gears so I could go look for money on
the beach. For me, the courage comes from getting back up.

(43:24):
What's great about America is that we're not a country
where we promise you that you'll never fail. We're a
country that says, if you're on your knees and you're
not willing to give up, then we're not going to
give up on you either. That's the beauty of America.
And I hope people see themselves in my book. I
hope they see like the struggles and maybe their families
went through when their dad lost a job at fifty
like minded, I hope they see the struggle of like me,

(43:48):
trying to do my job and be a mom and
feeling miserable at both. When I'm with my job, I
I feel like I'm being a terrible mother, and when
I'm with my daughters, I feel like I'm letting the
people at work down. Um. I hope they see themselves
in the journey and know that it's okay. It's okay
to struggle and just get back up. I think that

(44:08):
is great advice. They might not be able quite to
imagine doing everything you've done because you set a high
bar for getting back up and keep going, but I
think they will be inspired. You are an inspiration. I
am delighted to have this chance to talk with you,
and I just you know, wish you the very best,

(44:28):
Senator Tammy Duckworth's and just all the best to you.
Keep going. Thank you made I'm secretary my hero. Tammy
Duckworth's book is called every Day Is a Gift. Not
long after I spoke with Tammy, eight people, six of

(44:50):
them Asian American women, were murdered in Atlanta, Georgia. Tammy
has been outspoken in the wake of this terrible tragedy,
so I asked her to join me again for a
quick check in to hear what's on her mind right now.
You know, after the horrific shootings in Atlanta on March sixteen,

(45:14):
you were one of the very first political leaders to
say that those shootings seemed racially motivated. Why was it
important for you to speak out about it. Well, there
are only two Asian women's senators from one thing, and
they're not that many Asian Americans in leadership positions in
this country, especially in high ranking government positions. And uh,

(45:39):
you know, having held a position like that, yourself being
one of the you know, few of not only women.
We've seen all the pictures where you're the only woman
at the table, right, Um, it's so important. And so
we'd seen a rise in anti Asian violence over this
past year because of Donald Trump's rhetoric and those Republicans
who chose to follow along with this leadership. In fact,

(46:00):
over uh, you know, three thousand more hate crimes that
were actually reported as hate crimes against Americans, a hundred
and fifty increase in our major cities just this past year.
And we know that hate crimes against Asians are very
much underreported, which is why, when you know what happened
Atlanta happened, I wanted to make sure that we put

(46:20):
the marker down that this looks like a hate crime
to me, especially since that police sergeant the first day
he did was said that, you know, was to defend
the shooters and he was having a bad day. I'm sorry,
I get bad days all the time, but I don't
go out and kill eight people, right. Well, I found
that just unbelievable in every respect. And when we look

(46:40):
at how crimes against Asian Americans have increased, as you
say so dramatically, why do you think that the story
of all these attacks, the physical attacks, the pushings, the beatings,
the spitting, the coughing, you know, the vandalism on businesses.
Why do you think it's taken so long for the

(47:01):
press to cover this and for you know, this kind
of terrible behavior to get the attention it deserves. I
think the racism against a PI is a little bit different.
It's got that whole model minority component to it, in
that there's a sense that Asians are doing just fine.
They're the doctors and the accountants and the scientists, and

(47:24):
so they don't need extra health, they don't really face discrimination.
And it also the hate crimes in the past year
that those statistics that I mentioned, two thirds of those
were against Asian women, and um Asian women are you know,
unfortunately stereotypist, meek and submissive and also hyper sexualized and

(47:45):
so uh, you know, there's this whole they got what
they're coming to them because they were working on a massage.
You know, they were giving massage, is that sort of thing.
So I do think that there's sort of several things
going on at once, and Asians have been this other category.
Asians were actually in tournament camps in the United States
any other way. It also is somewhat frustrating to me,

(48:07):
and I've spoken out about this for a year, that
there's not enough attention paid to the fact that two
million of our essential workers are Asian Americans and they've
been disproportionately affected by COVID. Nearly one third of the
nurses who have died from COVID nineteen were Filipino Americans,
even though they make up just four percent of our nurses.

(48:29):
And so part of the challenges, you know, expanding the presses,
understanding of what a story is, and trying to cover
what are very important activities and the consequences in the
community at large. Well, that's exactly, and I don't think
people connected the dots, and this is where we need,
you know, voices like yours and voices in the media

(48:51):
to connect the dots and say you can't call it
the Chinese virus. In fact, most of the cases in
the United States came from Italy. So it is just
a way to divide us, something Donald Trump was doing
to cover himself for the fact that he wasn't handling
this absolutely blame and Asian Americans are a frequent skipgoat

(49:12):
throughout our nation's history. But one thing, Well, finally, Tammy,
I wanted to ask, you know, as an Asian American woman,
as a mom, have you and your family experienced any
anti Asian bigotry this past year? My mother has My
mom is seventy nine, and Stuart drives and goes shopping

(49:32):
by herself, and that does all of that. But she's
come home from being at the grocery store where people
have said things to her, literally pushing her out of
the way, or you know, I think she said something like,
you know, somebody pushed out of the way the supermarket
said I don't want to catch your Chinese virus. You know,
Oh boy, that's sort of thing. Um, I'm much more visible,
so I don't get as much. I mean, I experienced

(49:52):
the racism. I mean I've been asked where are you
from while we're in uniform with this country? With her
flat on my computer point the I showed it right here. Well,
I just want to thank you for your leadership once again.
You have, you know, just moved right to the forefront.
And I appreciate your not only raising these issues but

(50:13):
demanding action. You know, everybody needs to be you know,
paying much closer attention to what's happening in the Asian
American community. Is there anything you want to add before
we wrap up, Well, just thank you for for you know,
coming back and covering this. I think those of us
who are privileged to be able to have a soapbox
to stand on, we have to sort of exercise that

(50:35):
privilege in a way you know that recognized the responsibility
that comes with it. And sometimes it's speaking hard truths
to people and and talking about things and people are like, oh, no,
you know, we're not gonna pay attention that I've got
other things to worry about. Was no, this is important. Well,
one thing I never worry about is you speaking truth
to power, my friend, and keep it up, keep going.

(50:56):
Thank you so much. To learn more about what you
can do, please check out stop a a p I
hate dot org and to the a p I community.
Let me just say, you do not deserve to live
in fear for your safety or your families. You are

(51:19):
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(51:43):
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