April 13, 2021 • 38 mins
Hillary loves a problem solver: someone who can not only point to what’s not working, but who will roll up their sleeves and fix it. In this episode, she talks to two leaders with a track record of doing exactly that. We hear from Compton, California mayor Aja Brown who cut unemployment and the homicide rate by half in her first term, and is now pioneering the largest guaranteed income program in the U.S. Then, Hillary sits down with Senator Amy Klobuchar for a no-holds-barred conversation about how to protect voting rights, reduce legislative gridlock, break up monopolies, and hold big tech accountable.
Mayor Aja Brown made history when she was elected at 31 as the youngest mayor to serve the City of Compton. Recently, Mayor Brown joined forces with mayoral leaders across the country who are committed to guaranteed income, leading the movement with the launch of the Compton Pledge.
Amy Klobuchar is the senior U.S. Senator from Minnesota. She serves as the chairwoman for the Senate Rules Committee and the Judiciary Subcommittee on Competition Policy, Antitrust, and Consumer Rights. Her new book is called Antitrust: Taking on Monopoly Power from the Gilded Age to the Digital Age.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.
I really love a problem solver. You now, somebody who says, hey,
look there's something we can do about this. Let's figure
it out. And today I'm talking to two of the
(00:20):
best problem solvers I know. Later i'll dig into ideas
about solving some of our problems with technology and elections
with my friend, Minnesota Senator Amy Klobisher. But first I'm
talking to the Mayor of Compton, California, Asia Brown. I
(00:45):
first heard about this amazing young woman who decided to
run for the mayor of Compton when she was just
thirty one years old. And Compton, as a lot of
people may know, is very old, distinguished city in California,
but it was having a lot of challenges. And the
(01:06):
idea that she stepped up and said, look, I think
I can make a difference made a terrific impression on me. Hey,
hi Mayor, Hi, how are you Secretary Clinton? Oh? Asia,
I'm fine. I hope you are. I am. I am
so great to see you. I am thrilled to welcome
you to this podcast because, as you I hope no,
(01:29):
I am a longtime admirer of your leadership and the
incredible work you've done as mayor of Compton, California, from
cutting both unemployment and the homicide rate by half in
your first term to pioneering the largest guaranteed income program
in our country. I think your success is really important,
(01:53):
of course for the people of Compton, but more because
of what it says about what we could be doing
to help people and to govern better in a difficult time.
So let me start by asking you, how did you
get inspired to run and become the youngest ever elected
(02:13):
mayor of Compton, California at the age of thirty one.
I really was inspired to serve my community in this capacity,
recognizing that I had worked in cities for a decade
and urban planning, economic development, redevelopment, and I realized that
projects can only go so far, and that in order
to change the trajectory of my community, we need a
(02:34):
new leadership. And so I looked around and asked people
that exhibited leadership qualities what they consider running and everyone
said no, And so I like, wow, I didn't know
that far. Everyone said no. I even asked my husband,
because I was the strategist of the family and I
told him, you know, I have your back, and he
said absolutely not. He was like, you're You're made for this,
(02:55):
and I recognized that I was. I had the training,
the education, and the passion, and so I stepped out
by faith. And because I had done so much work
in the community, we had already had a really strong
coalition behind me. And I went to the people of
Compton and I spoke with him about what they wanted
for their community. And then I created a twelve point
vision for Compton Plan, which was a strategy for community
(03:18):
growth and restoration. And that was my platform, that was
the mission, and the residents of Compton overwhelmingly elected me
to enact that strategy, which is exactly what I've done
for the last eight years. I love the fact that
you say you're someone who likes getting things done. You're
a woman after my own part Asia. When did you
(03:39):
first realize that about yourself? Were you a child, a
young girl, a teenager? Definitely a child, um. I actually
am a twin have a twin brother, um. And my
mother would always tell me, you're definitely the strategy and
brains of operation. I would always be trying to run
the situation, and she would tell me, you're not going
to run my house, but you'll be running a company
some day. So I always knew that I would um
(04:02):
be a leader someplace, but I was focused on solving problems.
I just wanted to make things better. And you've come
up with something called the Compton Pledge, which is a
really fascinating idea. Can you describe that to us? Absolutely? Um.
The Compton Pledge is really our commitment to Compton, and
it's focused on providing a direct, guaranteed income to eight
(04:25):
hundred Compton residents that are the most impoverished in our community.
And we really were strategic and wanting the sample to
actually reflect Compton's demographics, and so we have not only
um those that are below the poverty line, but also
those that are undocumented, those that are firmly incarcerated, and
so they were picked in a lottery basis. But they'll
(04:46):
be receiving bi monthly payments between three hundred dollars every
two weeks or six hundred dollars every two weeks, depending
on family size, and the program will last for two years.
We worked with the private sector to raid is eight
million dollars in order to provide direct cash to confident residents,
and we're looking forward to measuring their well being, how
(05:07):
they feel, how their trauma is impacted with the additional
infusion of capital, and then also providing them with access
to a portal with benefits. So we're providing free checking
accounts and financial counseling and um just information so that
they can really empower themselves in their families. Why do
you think guaranteed income programs like the Compton Pledge are
(05:30):
promising when it comes not only to reducing poverty, which
of course is a goal in and of itself, but
more than that, integrating people into the larger community, getting
them to use a checking account, getting them to know
how to seek out help and advice if they want
to start a small business or they have some other issues.
I am a strong believer that we are all all
(05:53):
human beings UM in our nation. We're all connected, we
all live in communities, we all um live in the
same neighborhoods, and what happens to my neighbor ultimately will
impact me. When we think about people relying on the
health care system for UM direct UH and in immediate
healthcare that ultimately has a greater cost on the broader society.
When we consider that people that are impoverished usually are
(06:16):
more susceptible to being impacted by crime. That's something that
impacts the total community. And so in order to have
a direct impact on poverty, we must provide a direct
investment to those that are most impoverished. And it's just
really simple economics. We know for a fact that trickle
down economics does not work. Um. It has never meant um,
and it's not going to work. And so we must
(06:39):
actually put our our money where we say our our
mouth is what we say our value is as Americans
in order to really provide equal access, justice, and opportunity
for all. I love that and I think it's a
great way of trying to demonstrate that investing in people
pays off. I know you've been asked this question, but
how do you respond to people who argue that a
(07:02):
guaranteed income program will disincentivize people from actually working. That
is such a misnomer, um, And it really reminds me
of the welfare queen, thinking that providing someone with the
basics to live is going to disincentivize them to wanting
to provide more for their families and for myself. I
was raised in poverty. I had a single mother, she
(07:23):
had two kids. I need everything. At the same time,
my mother did not access public assistance. She decided to
work um and she worked hard, and she made zero excuses,
and she focused on providing every single opportunity she can
get her fingers on. And I know that my mother
is not unique, that all mothers, all all fathers. They
want the best for their children, and if they have
an additional infusion of income, they're not going to sit
(07:46):
back because obviously you can't live on three hundred dollars
or six hundred dollars a month, but it can enable
you from being um, housing insecure, from having your utilities
cut off, from actually having a savings account for once
in your life, and not feeling the pressure of constant
really insecurity. My mother was raised with stress where literally
(08:06):
if something happened, um, if her car broke, we literally
were without utilities, and sometimes we had to move if
the issue began to compound, and it happened over and
over again growing up, and I remember being a child
and feeling her stress because children feel what your parents feel.
So I think people need to get back to basics
and think about humanity and to not segregate poor people
(08:28):
from the broader fabric of humanity. I love that, and
of course I agree with it because so often people
are literally just one broken car away from losing their job. There,
you know, one bad health experience from losing their job
and their income, and it's so unfair to turn our
backs on what could be an incredibly rich flowering of
(08:53):
people in our larger country if they just had a
little bit of help so that they don't fall off
the cliff and end up needing so much more or
feeling that they're just lost. What advice would you give
to someone who wants to get involved in their community
but isn't quite sure how to do that. I would
definitely encourage people to check out your city council meetings.
(09:16):
Just see see who's representing you, See what issues that
they're really champion Are they important to you and your family,
Are they really going to to move the community forward,
And then I would definitely start getting engaged, start reaching
out to them and let them know what you need
in your community and make them work for you. Elected
officials are here to serve, and they're they're not to
(09:38):
be served. They are to serve people, but the people
have to actually do their part and hold them accountable
and project what their agenda is in order for them
to coalesce around that. So I would encourage people to
use their power. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us.
(10:05):
I've heard that when you work to get young people engaged,
you first asked them what makes you mad the most,
because that's where they'll find the motivation to fix whatever
it is that makes them mad. So let me ask
you what makes you mad the most these days? You
know what's been biking me, Mathew? Most are I think
(10:26):
just people in the local community, and quite frankly that
our seniors but aren't necessarily seasoned, that are continuing to
fight against the younger generation. When we look at our
history of those that have been the most impactful on
the front lines of change our young people. And so
I just believe when when the older generation can really
(10:47):
wrap their arms around the young people and impose their
wisdom and marry that with young people's passion, that we
can really see the largest growth in our in our cities. Well,
I hope that the older generation of which I am
now or we'll hear you say that age now you
have announced that you're not going to run for re
election this summer. You were elected twice, you have been
(11:10):
very successful mayor. You've institutionalized some really important changes in
attitude and policy. What made you decide that it was
time for you to move on. I've always committed that
I would serve two terms UM, and I just believe
that elected offices do not belong to the office holder.
They belong to the people. And I know that as
(11:32):
long as I'm here that at some point I won't
motivate that next generation to step forward. And so in
the midst of COVID, I was even more ignited in
my passion of just building community and so I launched
a community development corporation that's really focused on infusing wealth,
building generational wealth in our communities, providing opportunities and educational
(11:53):
infrastructure UM and just innovation and tech in comftent So
I will be in comftent Um, but but serving in
a different capacity and with what I believe I can
have the greatest impact at this time, I just hope
that you know what you've done serves as a model
not only for those who follow in your footsteps in Compton,
but really across the country, and of course I really
(12:16):
hope that you will stay involved, that your voice will
be out there. I just want to thank you, Secretary
Clinton for being just a warrior UM for for justice,
for access, for equality. I followed your career since the
very beginning, and I can understand as a female leader
just that the obstacles that you've had to overcome and
the stances you've had to make because you're a woman.
(12:39):
UM And so I just want to let you know
that I am a huge fan. I always will be,
and I just want to thank you for still being
with us in publicly and just imparting your voice and
your wisdom to to the United States and abroad because
you're a champion for sure. Oh thank you so much. Asia.
That means a world to me coming from you, and uh,
I think I joined a big core us. Wishing you
(13:00):
the very best as you embark on the next adventure
in your life. Thank you. To keep up with Asia,
you can follow her on social media. She's Asia That's
a J. A. L. Brown on Twitter and Instagram. I
(13:28):
have been looking forward to talking with my friend Senator
Amy Klobisher from the beginning of the podcast because she's
a really down to earth person who tries to figure
out what to do to help people and also to
solve problems. I've known her since she first ran for
the Senate. She was a great supporter to me when
(13:51):
I ran for president, in just blanketed the Midwest campaigning
for me. And now she's back in the Senate after
running for president herself, so she has that experience behind
her and is chairing one of the most important committees
called the Rules Committee, which she'll talk about. One of
the areas of problem solving Amy is passionate about is
(14:13):
holding big business accountable and breaking up corporate monopolies. In fact,
her latest book is called Antitrust, Taking on monopoly Power
from the guilded Age to the Digital Age. And that's
one of the reasons I was really excited to talk
to her for our podcast. Here she is, Hey, hello,
(14:36):
my dear, how are you. It's great to see you.
How are you doing? How's your family? And I assume
your husband after his bout with COVID is fine, Okay,
I hope he is. My nine two year old dad
actually also got through COVID. So we've been hit like
so many families and um, so many families of course
(14:58):
hit worse. And I've think one of our most exciting
moments right now, in addition to the fact that it's
like eighty degrees in Minnesota, is that we are finally
getting through this. I was just on the phone with
a bunch of vats with the American Legion and they
were saying how excited they were that so many of
their members have gotten the shots. And you know, it
(15:19):
just feels to me like we are so close to
getting through this and we've just got to hang in
there and follow the rules. Um, and we're going to
make it through. Well, I'm hoping that your assessment is
right that we're certainly beginning to see the end of this.
You know, there are two really important issues I want
to talk to you about. Um. We'll get to the
(15:41):
one about anti trust and about technology, but I want
to start with the very important role you're playing in
the Senate on election reform. You know, give us an
update about where we are in trying to save our
democracy again by fixing the issues that unfortunately keep coming up,
(16:05):
about how we can always have free and fair elections,
keep dark money out of our elections, encourage and help
people to vote where where, are we on all of that,
Senator Well, I think no one knows better than you
what can happen when people start messing around with elections,
which is what happened clearly in when you're running. And
(16:27):
as a result of that, there were changes made to
protect our system from foreign interference. Um, not only the
hacking and what happened with your campaign, with the direct
hacking into John Podesta's account so many others, but also
with the attempts made to actually interfere with the ballots.
And that's when we pushed for extra funding for the states.
(16:50):
Because of what happened, we uh, Senator Langford and I
introduced Backup Paper Ballots Bill, basically the Secure Election Act,
with support from Senator Burr and Grant, and of course
the Trump administration stopped that from passing, so we still
don't have a requirement on backups. But because of what happened,
I will say there were people like Chris Krebs at
(17:10):
Homeland Security that worked really hard to take on foreign interference,
resulting in him saying at the end of it, it
was the safest election when it look comes to foreign
interference in the history of America. So that's the one
thing we got to remember that came out of what
happened to you. The second piece of this, though, is
the efforts that have been made at voter suppression that
(17:31):
have been going on for years and became really obvious
the last few years, and during the pandemic, this amazing,
almost magical thing happened. You would have thought that voter
turnout would have been way down because it was so
hard to vote. Instead it was up at the highest
level ever in the middle of a pandemic. That is
because there was so much pressure on governors secretaries of
(17:54):
states of both parties to make it easier to vote,
to be like Minnesota where we have early registration in
and I've always had the highest voter turnout in the
country and as a result, much more voting by mail,
much more education efforts on how to do this, and
we come out with this big turnout. Okay, what happens then, Well,
Joe Biden wins the election and Democrats eventually went Georgia,
(18:17):
which no one thought possible. And then what does the
Republican Party do? And to me, this is sad because
a bunch of their governors and sectors of states were
doing the right thing during the election, it was a
bipartisan effort. Instead of going with the flow and re
examining their party and what they can do, which all
parties do after they lose an election, these guys decided,
we're just gonna eliminate some of those voters. We're gonna
(18:40):
choose our voters instead of the voters choosing us. I
think that what we need to do is just put
in some minimum national standards about mail in balloting and
registering and early voting. And that's what the Four the
People Act is about, in addition to taking some the
dark money out of our politics and um, disclosing contributions
(19:01):
and putting in ethics rules. UM. And that's this big
bill that I chair the Rules Committee now, and that
we're going to get through the committee. And what are
the prospects of getting it through the Senate given what
a lot of people are worried about, which is the
old filibuster and the way to stop legislation like this. Yeah, well,
I think it's time to change that old filibuster. Um.
(19:23):
And I think you and I both understood, when used
in a good way, it was it would foster people
working together to get to sixty votes. That was a
whole idea, and you were a master when you were
in the Senate of getting things done across the aisle
and knew how to do that. And I've done a
lot of that too. I still went across the aisle
all the time. But I have seen this now as
(19:45):
impeding every major thing that we need to do, and
so there's a few ways to get around that. One
way is reconciliation, this old process that we used to
get the America Rescue Plan through. But you just got
to get stuff done, and that was fifty one vote.
But you can't use that reconciliation thing, which is about taxes.
(20:05):
You can't use it for things like voting reform or
for the most part, immigration, climate change, some of these
big things. So that leads you to the filibuster and
making change. So I would favor changing the filibuster now
to get rid of it. There's other reforms you could do,
like the talking filibuster, which center mansion as signaled interest,
(20:25):
in which you would at least force the other side
to just stand and be there all night instead of
messing around and just throwing in some procedural objection and
going home. So those are the kinds of things we're
looking at. In your question about how we get this
bill through, it's like all these other bills. Um, we're
going to have to find some way because right now
Mitch McConnell is not in a compromising mood. Um. That's
(20:48):
a nice Minnesota euphemism saying it. So we're gonna have
to find a way to get it done well. Connected
to election reform is technology, social media, Internet reform, because
I see it as going you know, hand in hand
in terms of how we communicate, how we get information
(21:09):
that we can trust to make decisions in a democracy.
And you have a new book out, has it? Has
it come out or it's about to come coming out?
A excellent So you have a new book coming out, um,
and it's called antitrust, taking on monopoly power from the
Gilded Age to the digital age, and it's about how
we increase competition in our economy and a number of industries.
(21:35):
And you know, as you know, I'd be happy to
talk any trust policy with you all day long. But
for anyone out there listening who's all of a sudden
saying any trust, what is what is that? Let's break
it down. What is antitrust? And why does it matter
so much? Well, it matters to anyone who wonders why
is my cable bill so high? Or why is it
(21:56):
cheap to go one airport leg and not the other?
How come, um, there's nothing to pick from when it
comes to cat food. Or my favorite was John Oliver
who did a whole segment on this, and at the
very end say, and if all this consolidation is enough
to make you want to die, good luck, because you've
only got three casket makers left. And then actually one
(22:18):
has bought the other one, so there's only two. Um.
And so anti trust came about during what we call
the Gilded Age, when they are all these robber barons
and they were controlling the railroads in Minnesota and northern Minnesota.
They controlling where my grandpa later worked, the iron ore industry,
and the mines. You can kind of go through it,
(22:39):
you know, these stories in the haymarket going back in Chicago,
Hillary and so what came about was this antitrust because
it trust owns everything. So anti trust was this movement
led by Democrats and Republicans. Teddy Roosevelt rode his horse
into the White House in part because he was willing
to take on the trust. So there's been this spirit
of entrepreneur worship rejuvenating capitalism through the years that have
(23:03):
not been partisan, and we haven't done anything in this
area for decades and decades and decades, and now we
have our new guilded age with companies that are basically
the gateway companies, whether it is Facebook when it comes
to social media, when it's Google that controlled the searches,
and they have reached a point where they are able
(23:24):
to hold the whole countries hostage. Like Australia that simply
wanted to have people pay for content so news organizations
could be compensated for content, and Google and Facebook that
provide all those links go no way, we don't want
to pay for that. We're just gonna go home. Sorry,
you won't have a search engine. Well, eventually there was
so much pressure internationally that they backed away. In Australia
(23:46):
was able to proceed with their law. But a true
sign of a monopoly is when they can hold an
entire industrialized nation hostage. So that's what you're seeing, and
it's affecting people, even though they love their aroducts. And
I'm not against these companies, you know, they've been successful,
they've given us great products, but we've always rejuvenated capitalism
(24:07):
by having a check in balance. That was the breakup
of a T and T. That was the work that
went on around Microsoft in the past and other companies
where people pushed back. Sometimes it resulted in dramatic things
like the breakup and the reduction in the long distance
line costs and the spawning of the cell phone industry.
And sometimes maybe the end result wasn't dramatic, but it
(24:31):
created a pause in the competition, so other new companies
got in the market. And so that's what you're seeing
right now with these Google and Facebook lawsuits that actually
got started by some hard working people during the Trump
administration at the end at the FTC and the do
O J and I Trust, and are now being carried
on by the Biden administration. You have really described so
(24:55):
well what we're up against. And small businesses that might
very well be developing some of the advances in technology
or some of the fixes for what ails technology are
being just squeezed out of the market. I mean they're
not getting, you know, the kind of air they need
to breathe to be able to develop and grow. So
(25:16):
I think stronger competition or antitrust policy would also be
good for small business. Yeah, it is, and especially women
owned and minority owned businesses. You look at those numbers,
particularly minority owned businesses, and how you have whole areas
of the country that used to be have thriving small
minority owned businesses, particularly African American owned businesses, and it's
(25:39):
very hard to get started when you have these big
goliaths that basically push everything out, and it's hard to
get the capital to start. And there's a lot of
solutions which I lay out in the book to that,
even outside of antitrust law, with making sure that you
make it easier to access capital and having STEM programs
for focused on women and minorities. But you can't forget
(26:01):
the n I trust law. I'm actually I'm pretty excited
about that aspect of people haven't talked about competition for wages.
If you just have one big company, they have no
reason to want to compete for wages. If you have
a bunch of people competing in the same area, this
makes sense. Then the employees could go Nope, I have
this expertise, but I'm gonna go work at this company instead.
(26:24):
UM and when you look back in history. I mentioned Chicago,
which was really a focal point for the union movement
way back. That union movement came out in tandem with
these monopolies because they were trying to give workers more power.
The farmers and the grangers with their pitchforks at meetings
in Minnesota and Iowa, North and South Dakota. That was
a lot about the same thing. They don't want to
(26:46):
have to pay just one railroad company to ship their grain. Um.
And so it's just this trying to take that kind
of exuberance for the issue that they had back then,
when they had literally campaign songs. Woodrow Wilson had a
campaign song about and I dressed um, which we wouldn't
do today. But it's trying to take that kind of
exuberance and bring it into the modern day politics. What
(27:08):
are some of the monopolies that a lot of people
might not even be aware of. Let's see online travel.
People think they're getting all their deals when they go
to Expedia and Kiaka, Well it turns out two companies
own that market. Um. You have agged. There's been a
lot of mergers and agg which makes it really hard.
Pharmaceutical area, UM, while we are, you know, very pleased
(27:31):
they developed these vaccines for us all across the world.
We can't then take our pedal off the gas when
it comes to looking at anti competitive conduct with pharmaceuticals,
UM and I actually start my book by leading with
how I got involved, which was a newborn baby drug
called into methisin, when a pharmacist called me in Minnesota
(27:52):
said this price suddenly went out for newborn babies with
heart defects. It went of a thousand percent in one week,
and it turned out one company had bought both the drugs.
It was that simple. Um, I just think it would
surprise people. It's everything from sunglasses, as I said, to
cat food. It's a lot of consolidation going on. We'll
(28:14):
be right back, So talk to us about your plan
for both preventing monopolies and incentivizing competition, the kind of
(28:35):
actions that you think are necessary, and what your legislation
would try to do well. The first thing is making
sure these agencies that FTC and the d O G
and I trust, which are just shadows of their former selves,
making sure that the agencies are not left with band
aids and duct tape to take on the biggest companies
the world has ever known. UM. The second piece is
(28:58):
looking at the standards, and we have juvenated our anti
trust laws decade after decade after decade, and so this
is a moment where we could do that and look
at some of these gigantic mega mergers that are over
five billion dollars and say, well, for those, the government
shouldn't have to prove that it hurts competition. UM, the
company should have to prove that it doesn't. To make
(29:20):
it easier to bring the cases. Because because you weren't
President Hillary, we appointed a number of judges who have
actually have really conservative track records on anti trust, particularly Gorset,
who continues to side with Justice Thomas on these cases.
And then Justice Kavanaugh had a number of conservative cases.
(29:44):
He did go one time since becoming a Supreme Court
justice on allowing a case to go forward with Apple,
and he sided with the more liberal justices. UM, but
for the most part his records very conservative. Amy Corney
Barrett doesn't really have a record on anti trust. It
there's no reason to think she will be anything close
to where Ruth Bader Ginsburg was. So you basically, if
(30:06):
your whole hope is to wait on the Supreme Court
to stop their working in interpretation of the antitrust laws,
which is very extreme. That's probably not going to happen.
So that's what led me to believe that while the
cases should continue to be fought, especially intact, there may
be some hope on the horizon there. We've got to
make some changes that are sensible to the laws to
(30:28):
take on this. Make our laws as sophisticated as the
companies that are messing around with them. It's the only
way you're going to be able to launch the kind
of investigations we need. Putting people in place, and this
will be Congress's job to confirm them, but putting people
in place in the administrations that really want to take
this on. And Um, you know, you've got some really
(30:49):
interesting people now working on this who are outside the
box thinkers. Lena Khan's name has been nominated President Biden
for the FDC and most of Sgnificantly, Merrick Garland knows
about this like your husband. He's taught and I trust
a lot, and um it's a very complex area. And
(31:11):
he um Is brought it up when he was standing
next to President Biden when he nominated him. So I
think that's really hopeful when you have an attorney general
that understands it. Now, you know, critics um and you
know there's always critics of everything, but you know, critics say,
oh and he trust. Come on, you know number one,
(31:31):
it will drive up prices, it'll hurt innovation, and yet
there's no evidence of that. It's like so much else
that we hear from people who defend the status quo.
Do you want to just take on those two things?
You're right, the main criticisms are they first say, well,
this will somehow hurt you guys. Well, one of the
(31:51):
classics things that happens with anti trust is monopolies under price,
so it seems really good, and then once they have
no competitors, and this is history. We know, this is
is why we have these laws on the book called
an I trust. They then raised the prices and you're screwed.
You know, It's like you get a real good deal
to get in on something and then pretty soon you've
got the prices and you're stuck with it. So that's
(32:13):
just economics. That's what happens in unchecked capitalism. And so
economists are aware that you have to have this check
because basically price will go up. And I'd say the
proof is in these longer term monopolies like your cable prices,
they find they're getting some competition from streaming and the like,
but over time those prices have gone way up. Um.
(32:34):
The second thing is on innovation. So originally, and I'm
so in favor of success, and I was in the
private sector for fourteen years. I did represent m c
I by the way, so I had a front row
seat when we were fighting against the monopolies. It was
right after the A T and T breakup, and I
saw there that we got more innovation when A T
(32:55):
and T was broken up. Cell phones when it started
where the sides of like Gordon Geckos briefcase and that
would be well Street, right, And it was all of
that competition that got us to a better place. And
right now we need competition in the seed industry, um,
so that we can get better and better seeds to
adapt to climate change. We need more competition when it
(33:16):
comes to these tech companies, so not only do we
regulate our way into privacy, but they come up with
the solutions which it just has completely alluded us to
our great detriment. And so um, that's my argument is
they have brought us innovation. That's great. A T and
T did too at the beginning. We you know, with
the old telephones, right, but then you rejuvenate capitalism and
(33:38):
you do it with the n I trust laws. Well,
Senator Kloba, I'm so happy that you are in a
leadership role on these critically important issues. It's just terrific.
And the fact that you keep working so hard to
be bipartisan to find partners. You've mentioned a bunch of
Republican senators that you have worked with and are working with.
(34:00):
I only hope that you know they will stay with
you and be part of the solution to these problems
that we face. Any last words about your exciting book, Well,
for those that followed the presidential campaign, my presidential campaign,
they will be amused to know that Pete and I
of course had this ribbalry on the debate stage, but
we're truly friends. His book was called trust that he
(34:22):
put out this ball and of course mine is called
antitrust um. So that's a little fun fact. But I
think that for me taking those two issues and they
really are tied together because we cannot have a strong
democracy if it is undermined. All the time, as we
saw in all of its horror on January six by
disinformation and misinformation on the Internet. And so to me,
(34:46):
they're kind of tied together, um, and they're not the
easiest things. In the election case, you're basically taking on
the entire Republican party structure that doesn't want to see
that change. And in the antitrust you thank you all
the monopolies. Other than that, you know it's gonna be
a piece of k Hillary, but someone's got to do it,
(35:08):
as you know from those hard things you took on internationally,
I'm in your corner and I'm thrilled you're leading the charge.
Thanks so much for talking to us about this. Thank
you so much. Amy's new book is called Antitrust, Taking
on monopoly Power from the guilded Age to the Digital Age,
(35:30):
and I think you could tell from listening to her
she breaks it down and makes it all really understandable
because we all have a stake in making sure that
these monopolies don't control our lives. Well, that's it for
today's episode, and I hope you're feeling inspired to go
out and solve some problems. There is certainly no shortage
(35:54):
of them. Around us. How do we rebuild in the
wake of this pandemic. How do we address us climate
change on our personal level too, you know, the great
macro global level. How do we prevent guns from getting
in the hands of the wrong people? You know, one
of the biggest problems I'm focused on right now is
how do we persuade people to get vaccinated? People who say, oh,
(36:18):
I just don't know. Well, if you're close to somebody
who's saying that, try to help problem solved, to get
them the information they need to get vaccinated. And then,
of course I'm always trying to solve the problems facing
our country in the world. But you know, that's a
topic for another day. Before I go, I want to
make a really exciting announcement about our last episode of
(36:41):
this season. We're going to turn the tables and let you,
our listeners, ask the questions. I'll be joined by a
surprise guest, someone who makes me laugh all the time.
So if you have a question for me about the podcast,
about public service, about my favorite pants suit, what where
it might be, please give us a call at four
(37:04):
four five eight one four four one, and to all
the phone everse among us. Don't worry I won't actually
pick up the phone, so you can call seven leave
a voicemail any time of the day or night. We
just asked that you try to keep it to a
minute or so, or if you prefer, you can email
(37:26):
us your question at You and Me Both pod at
gmail dot com. Once again, that number is nine one
four four five eight one four four one. I really
look forward to hearing from you. You and Me Both
is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced
(37:49):
by Julie Supran, Kathleen Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help
from Kuma Aberdeen, Nikki e Tour, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hawk Hman,
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(38:12):
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(38:36):
see you next week.
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.
I really love a problem solver. You now, somebody who says, hey,
look there's something we can do about this. Let's figure
it out. And today I'm talking to two of the
(00:20):
best problem solvers I know. Later i'll dig into ideas
about solving some of our problems with technology and elections
with my friend, Minnesota Senator Amy Klobisher. But first I'm
talking to the Mayor of Compton, California, Asia Brown. I
(00:45):
first heard about this amazing young woman who decided to
run for the mayor of Compton when she was just
thirty one years old. And Compton, as a lot of
people may know, is very old, distinguished city in California,
but it was having a lot of challenges. And the
(01:06):
idea that she stepped up and said, look, I think
I can make a difference made a terrific impression on me. Hey,
hi Mayor, Hi, how are you Secretary Clinton? Oh? Asia,
I'm fine. I hope you are. I am. I am
so great to see you. I am thrilled to welcome
you to this podcast because, as you I hope no,
(01:29):
I am a longtime admirer of your leadership and the
incredible work you've done as mayor of Compton, California, from
cutting both unemployment and the homicide rate by half in
your first term to pioneering the largest guaranteed income program
in our country. I think your success is really important,
(01:53):
of course for the people of Compton, but more because
of what it says about what we could be doing
to help people and to govern better in a difficult time.
So let me start by asking you, how did you
get inspired to run and become the youngest ever elected
(02:13):
mayor of Compton, California at the age of thirty one.
I really was inspired to serve my community in this capacity,
recognizing that I had worked in cities for a decade
and urban planning, economic development, redevelopment, and I realized that
projects can only go so far, and that in order
to change the trajectory of my community, we need a
(02:34):
new leadership. And so I looked around and asked people
that exhibited leadership qualities what they consider running and everyone
said no, And so I like, wow, I didn't know
that far. Everyone said no. I even asked my husband,
because I was the strategist of the family and I
told him, you know, I have your back, and he
said absolutely not. He was like, you're You're made for this,
(02:55):
and I recognized that I was. I had the training,
the education, and the passion, and so I stepped out
by faith. And because I had done so much work
in the community, we had already had a really strong
coalition behind me. And I went to the people of
Compton and I spoke with him about what they wanted
for their community. And then I created a twelve point
vision for Compton Plan, which was a strategy for community
(03:18):
growth and restoration. And that was my platform, that was
the mission, and the residents of Compton overwhelmingly elected me
to enact that strategy, which is exactly what I've done
for the last eight years. I love the fact that
you say you're someone who likes getting things done. You're
a woman after my own part Asia. When did you
(03:39):
first realize that about yourself? Were you a child, a
young girl, a teenager? Definitely a child, um. I actually
am a twin have a twin brother, um. And my
mother would always tell me, you're definitely the strategy and
brains of operation. I would always be trying to run
the situation, and she would tell me, you're not going
to run my house, but you'll be running a company
some day. So I always knew that I would um
(04:02):
be a leader someplace, but I was focused on solving problems.
I just wanted to make things better. And you've come
up with something called the Compton Pledge, which is a
really fascinating idea. Can you describe that to us? Absolutely? Um.
The Compton Pledge is really our commitment to Compton, and
it's focused on providing a direct, guaranteed income to eight
(04:25):
hundred Compton residents that are the most impoverished in our community.
And we really were strategic and wanting the sample to
actually reflect Compton's demographics, and so we have not only
um those that are below the poverty line, but also
those that are undocumented, those that are firmly incarcerated, and
so they were picked in a lottery basis. But they'll
(04:46):
be receiving bi monthly payments between three hundred dollars every
two weeks or six hundred dollars every two weeks, depending
on family size, and the program will last for two years.
We worked with the private sector to raid is eight
million dollars in order to provide direct cash to confident residents,
and we're looking forward to measuring their well being, how
(05:07):
they feel, how their trauma is impacted with the additional
infusion of capital, and then also providing them with access
to a portal with benefits. So we're providing free checking
accounts and financial counseling and um just information so that
they can really empower themselves in their families. Why do
you think guaranteed income programs like the Compton Pledge are
(05:30):
promising when it comes not only to reducing poverty, which
of course is a goal in and of itself, but
more than that, integrating people into the larger community, getting
them to use a checking account, getting them to know
how to seek out help and advice if they want
to start a small business or they have some other issues.
I am a strong believer that we are all all
(05:53):
human beings UM in our nation. We're all connected, we
all live in communities, we all um live in the
same neighborhoods, and what happens to my neighbor ultimately will
impact me. When we think about people relying on the
health care system for UM direct UH and in immediate
healthcare that ultimately has a greater cost on the broader society.
When we consider that people that are impoverished usually are
(06:16):
more susceptible to being impacted by crime. That's something that
impacts the total community. And so in order to have
a direct impact on poverty, we must provide a direct
investment to those that are most impoverished. And it's just
really simple economics. We know for a fact that trickle
down economics does not work. Um. It has never meant um,
and it's not going to work. And so we must
(06:39):
actually put our our money where we say our our
mouth is what we say our value is as Americans
in order to really provide equal access, justice, and opportunity
for all. I love that and I think it's a
great way of trying to demonstrate that investing in people
pays off. I know you've been asked this question, but
how do you respond to people who argue that a
(07:02):
guaranteed income program will disincentivize people from actually working. That
is such a misnomer, um, And it really reminds me
of the welfare queen, thinking that providing someone with the
basics to live is going to disincentivize them to wanting
to provide more for their families and for myself. I
was raised in poverty. I had a single mother, she
(07:23):
had two kids. I need everything. At the same time,
my mother did not access public assistance. She decided to
work um and she worked hard, and she made zero excuses,
and she focused on providing every single opportunity she can
get her fingers on. And I know that my mother
is not unique, that all mothers, all all fathers. They
want the best for their children, and if they have
an additional infusion of income, they're not going to sit
(07:46):
back because obviously you can't live on three hundred dollars
or six hundred dollars a month, but it can enable
you from being um, housing insecure, from having your utilities
cut off, from actually having a savings account for once
in your life, and not feeling the pressure of constant
really insecurity. My mother was raised with stress where literally
(08:06):
if something happened, um, if her car broke, we literally
were without utilities, and sometimes we had to move if
the issue began to compound, and it happened over and
over again growing up, and I remember being a child
and feeling her stress because children feel what your parents feel.
So I think people need to get back to basics
and think about humanity and to not segregate poor people
(08:28):
from the broader fabric of humanity. I love that, and
of course I agree with it because so often people
are literally just one broken car away from losing their job. There,
you know, one bad health experience from losing their job
and their income, and it's so unfair to turn our
backs on what could be an incredibly rich flowering of
(08:53):
people in our larger country if they just had a
little bit of help so that they don't fall off
the cliff and end up needing so much more or
feeling that they're just lost. What advice would you give
to someone who wants to get involved in their community
but isn't quite sure how to do that. I would
definitely encourage people to check out your city council meetings.
(09:16):
Just see see who's representing you, See what issues that
they're really champion Are they important to you and your family,
Are they really going to to move the community forward,
And then I would definitely start getting engaged, start reaching
out to them and let them know what you need
in your community and make them work for you. Elected
officials are here to serve, and they're they're not to
(09:38):
be served. They are to serve people, but the people
have to actually do their part and hold them accountable
and project what their agenda is in order for them
to coalesce around that. So I would encourage people to
use their power. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us.
(10:05):
I've heard that when you work to get young people engaged,
you first asked them what makes you mad the most,
because that's where they'll find the motivation to fix whatever
it is that makes them mad. So let me ask
you what makes you mad the most these days? You
know what's been biking me, Mathew? Most are I think
(10:26):
just people in the local community, and quite frankly that
our seniors but aren't necessarily seasoned, that are continuing to
fight against the younger generation. When we look at our
history of those that have been the most impactful on
the front lines of change our young people. And so
I just believe when when the older generation can really
(10:47):
wrap their arms around the young people and impose their
wisdom and marry that with young people's passion, that we
can really see the largest growth in our in our cities. Well,
I hope that the older generation of which I am
now or we'll hear you say that age now you
have announced that you're not going to run for re
election this summer. You were elected twice, you have been
(11:10):
very successful mayor. You've institutionalized some really important changes in
attitude and policy. What made you decide that it was
time for you to move on. I've always committed that
I would serve two terms UM, and I just believe
that elected offices do not belong to the office holder.
They belong to the people. And I know that as
(11:32):
long as I'm here that at some point I won't
motivate that next generation to step forward. And so in
the midst of COVID, I was even more ignited in
my passion of just building community and so I launched
a community development corporation that's really focused on infusing wealth,
building generational wealth in our communities, providing opportunities and educational
(11:53):
infrastructure UM and just innovation and tech in comftent So
I will be in comftent Um, but but serving in
a different capacity and with what I believe I can
have the greatest impact at this time, I just hope
that you know what you've done serves as a model
not only for those who follow in your footsteps in Compton,
but really across the country, and of course I really
(12:16):
hope that you will stay involved, that your voice will
be out there. I just want to thank you, Secretary
Clinton for being just a warrior UM for for justice,
for access, for equality. I followed your career since the
very beginning, and I can understand as a female leader
just that the obstacles that you've had to overcome and
the stances you've had to make because you're a woman.
(12:39):
UM And so I just want to let you know
that I am a huge fan. I always will be,
and I just want to thank you for still being
with us in publicly and just imparting your voice and
your wisdom to to the United States and abroad because
you're a champion for sure. Oh thank you so much. Asia.
That means a world to me coming from you, and uh,
I think I joined a big core us. Wishing you
(13:00):
the very best as you embark on the next adventure
in your life. Thank you. To keep up with Asia,
you can follow her on social media. She's Asia That's
a J. A. L. Brown on Twitter and Instagram. I
(13:28):
have been looking forward to talking with my friend Senator
Amy Klobisher from the beginning of the podcast because she's
a really down to earth person who tries to figure
out what to do to help people and also to
solve problems. I've known her since she first ran for
the Senate. She was a great supporter to me when
(13:51):
I ran for president, in just blanketed the Midwest campaigning
for me. And now she's back in the Senate after
running for president herself, so she has that experience behind
her and is chairing one of the most important committees
called the Rules Committee, which she'll talk about. One of
the areas of problem solving Amy is passionate about is
(14:13):
holding big business accountable and breaking up corporate monopolies. In fact,
her latest book is called Antitrust, Taking on monopoly Power
from the guilded Age to the Digital Age. And that's
one of the reasons I was really excited to talk
to her for our podcast. Here she is, Hey, hello,
(14:36):
my dear, how are you. It's great to see you.
How are you doing? How's your family? And I assume
your husband after his bout with COVID is fine, Okay,
I hope he is. My nine two year old dad
actually also got through COVID. So we've been hit like
so many families and um, so many families of course
(14:58):
hit worse. And I've think one of our most exciting
moments right now, in addition to the fact that it's
like eighty degrees in Minnesota, is that we are finally
getting through this. I was just on the phone with
a bunch of vats with the American Legion and they
were saying how excited they were that so many of
their members have gotten the shots. And you know, it
(15:19):
just feels to me like we are so close to
getting through this and we've just got to hang in
there and follow the rules. Um, and we're going to
make it through. Well, I'm hoping that your assessment is
right that we're certainly beginning to see the end of this.
You know, there are two really important issues I want
to talk to you about. Um. We'll get to the
(15:41):
one about anti trust and about technology, but I want
to start with the very important role you're playing in
the Senate on election reform. You know, give us an
update about where we are in trying to save our
democracy again by fixing the issues that unfortunately keep coming up,
(16:05):
about how we can always have free and fair elections,
keep dark money out of our elections, encourage and help
people to vote where where, are we on all of that,
Senator Well, I think no one knows better than you
what can happen when people start messing around with elections,
which is what happened clearly in when you're running. And
(16:27):
as a result of that, there were changes made to
protect our system from foreign interference. Um, not only the
hacking and what happened with your campaign, with the direct
hacking into John Podesta's account so many others, but also
with the attempts made to actually interfere with the ballots.
And that's when we pushed for extra funding for the states.
(16:50):
Because of what happened, we uh, Senator Langford and I
introduced Backup Paper Ballots Bill, basically the Secure Election Act,
with support from Senator Burr and Grant, and of course
the Trump administration stopped that from passing, so we still
don't have a requirement on backups. But because of what happened,
I will say there were people like Chris Krebs at
(17:10):
Homeland Security that worked really hard to take on foreign interference,
resulting in him saying at the end of it, it
was the safest election when it look comes to foreign
interference in the history of America. So that's the one
thing we got to remember that came out of what
happened to you. The second piece of this, though, is
the efforts that have been made at voter suppression that
(17:31):
have been going on for years and became really obvious
the last few years, and during the pandemic, this amazing,
almost magical thing happened. You would have thought that voter
turnout would have been way down because it was so
hard to vote. Instead it was up at the highest
level ever in the middle of a pandemic. That is
because there was so much pressure on governors secretaries of
(17:54):
states of both parties to make it easier to vote,
to be like Minnesota where we have early registration in
and I've always had the highest voter turnout in the
country and as a result, much more voting by mail,
much more education efforts on how to do this, and
we come out with this big turnout. Okay, what happens then, Well,
Joe Biden wins the election and Democrats eventually went Georgia,
(18:17):
which no one thought possible. And then what does the
Republican Party do? And to me, this is sad because
a bunch of their governors and sectors of states were
doing the right thing during the election, it was a
bipartisan effort. Instead of going with the flow and re
examining their party and what they can do, which all
parties do after they lose an election, these guys decided,
we're just gonna eliminate some of those voters. We're gonna
(18:40):
choose our voters instead of the voters choosing us. I
think that what we need to do is just put
in some minimum national standards about mail in balloting and
registering and early voting. And that's what the Four the
People Act is about, in addition to taking some the
dark money out of our politics and um, disclosing contributions
(19:01):
and putting in ethics rules. UM. And that's this big
bill that I chair the Rules Committee now, and that
we're going to get through the committee. And what are
the prospects of getting it through the Senate given what
a lot of people are worried about, which is the
old filibuster and the way to stop legislation like this. Yeah, well,
I think it's time to change that old filibuster. Um.
(19:23):
And I think you and I both understood, when used
in a good way, it was it would foster people
working together to get to sixty votes. That was a
whole idea, and you were a master when you were
in the Senate of getting things done across the aisle
and knew how to do that. And I've done a
lot of that too. I still went across the aisle
all the time. But I have seen this now as
(19:45):
impeding every major thing that we need to do, and
so there's a few ways to get around that. One
way is reconciliation, this old process that we used to
get the America Rescue Plan through. But you just got
to get stuff done, and that was fifty one vote.
But you can't use that reconciliation thing, which is about taxes.
(20:05):
You can't use it for things like voting reform or
for the most part, immigration, climate change, some of these
big things. So that leads you to the filibuster and
making change. So I would favor changing the filibuster now
to get rid of it. There's other reforms you could do,
like the talking filibuster, which center mansion as signaled interest,
(20:25):
in which you would at least force the other side
to just stand and be there all night instead of
messing around and just throwing in some procedural objection and
going home. So those are the kinds of things we're
looking at. In your question about how we get this
bill through, it's like all these other bills. Um, we're
going to have to find some way because right now
Mitch McConnell is not in a compromising mood. Um. That's
(20:48):
a nice Minnesota euphemism saying it. So we're gonna have
to find a way to get it done well. Connected
to election reform is technology, social media, Internet reform, because
I see it as going you know, hand in hand
in terms of how we communicate, how we get information
(21:09):
that we can trust to make decisions in a democracy.
And you have a new book out, has it? Has
it come out or it's about to come coming out?
A excellent So you have a new book coming out, um,
and it's called antitrust, taking on monopoly power from the
Gilded Age to the digital age, and it's about how
we increase competition in our economy and a number of industries.
(21:35):
And you know, as you know, I'd be happy to
talk any trust policy with you all day long. But
for anyone out there listening who's all of a sudden
saying any trust, what is what is that? Let's break
it down. What is antitrust? And why does it matter
so much? Well, it matters to anyone who wonders why
is my cable bill so high? Or why is it
(21:56):
cheap to go one airport leg and not the other?
How come, um, there's nothing to pick from when it
comes to cat food. Or my favorite was John Oliver
who did a whole segment on this, and at the
very end say, and if all this consolidation is enough
to make you want to die, good luck, because you've
only got three casket makers left. And then actually one
(22:18):
has bought the other one, so there's only two. Um.
And so anti trust came about during what we call
the Gilded Age, when they are all these robber barons
and they were controlling the railroads in Minnesota and northern Minnesota.
They controlling where my grandpa later worked, the iron ore industry,
and the mines. You can kind of go through it,
(22:39):
you know, these stories in the haymarket going back in Chicago,
Hillary and so what came about was this antitrust because
it trust owns everything. So anti trust was this movement
led by Democrats and Republicans. Teddy Roosevelt rode his horse
into the White House in part because he was willing
to take on the trust. So there's been this spirit
of entrepreneur worship rejuvenating capitalism through the years that have
(23:03):
not been partisan, and we haven't done anything in this
area for decades and decades and decades, and now we
have our new guilded age with companies that are basically
the gateway companies, whether it is Facebook when it comes
to social media, when it's Google that controlled the searches,
and they have reached a point where they are able
(23:24):
to hold the whole countries hostage. Like Australia that simply
wanted to have people pay for content so news organizations
could be compensated for content, and Google and Facebook that
provide all those links go no way, we don't want
to pay for that. We're just gonna go home. Sorry,
you won't have a search engine. Well, eventually there was
so much pressure internationally that they backed away. In Australia
(23:46):
was able to proceed with their law. But a true
sign of a monopoly is when they can hold an
entire industrialized nation hostage. So that's what you're seeing, and
it's affecting people, even though they love their aroducts. And
I'm not against these companies, you know, they've been successful,
they've given us great products, but we've always rejuvenated capitalism
(24:07):
by having a check in balance. That was the breakup
of a T and T. That was the work that
went on around Microsoft in the past and other companies
where people pushed back. Sometimes it resulted in dramatic things
like the breakup and the reduction in the long distance
line costs and the spawning of the cell phone industry.
And sometimes maybe the end result wasn't dramatic, but it
(24:31):
created a pause in the competition, so other new companies
got in the market. And so that's what you're seeing
right now with these Google and Facebook lawsuits that actually
got started by some hard working people during the Trump
administration at the end at the FTC and the do
O J and I Trust, and are now being carried
on by the Biden administration. You have really described so
(24:55):
well what we're up against. And small businesses that might
very well be developing some of the advances in technology
or some of the fixes for what ails technology are
being just squeezed out of the market. I mean they're
not getting, you know, the kind of air they need
to breathe to be able to develop and grow. So
(25:16):
I think stronger competition or antitrust policy would also be
good for small business. Yeah, it is, and especially women
owned and minority owned businesses. You look at those numbers,
particularly minority owned businesses, and how you have whole areas
of the country that used to be have thriving small
minority owned businesses, particularly African American owned businesses, and it's
(25:39):
very hard to get started when you have these big
goliaths that basically push everything out, and it's hard to
get the capital to start. And there's a lot of
solutions which I lay out in the book to that,
even outside of antitrust law, with making sure that you
make it easier to access capital and having STEM programs
for focused on women and minorities. But you can't forget
(26:01):
the n I trust law. I'm actually I'm pretty excited
about that aspect of people haven't talked about competition for wages.
If you just have one big company, they have no
reason to want to compete for wages. If you have
a bunch of people competing in the same area, this
makes sense. Then the employees could go Nope, I have
this expertise, but I'm gonna go work at this company instead.
(26:24):
UM and when you look back in history. I mentioned Chicago,
which was really a focal point for the union movement
way back. That union movement came out in tandem with
these monopolies because they were trying to give workers more power.
The farmers and the grangers with their pitchforks at meetings
in Minnesota and Iowa, North and South Dakota. That was
a lot about the same thing. They don't want to
(26:46):
have to pay just one railroad company to ship their grain. Um.
And so it's just this trying to take that kind
of exuberance for the issue that they had back then,
when they had literally campaign songs. Woodrow Wilson had a
campaign song about and I dressed um, which we wouldn't
do today. But it's trying to take that kind of
exuberance and bring it into the modern day politics. What
(27:08):
are some of the monopolies that a lot of people
might not even be aware of. Let's see online travel.
People think they're getting all their deals when they go
to Expedia and Kiaka, Well it turns out two companies
own that market. Um. You have agged. There's been a
lot of mergers and agg which makes it really hard.
Pharmaceutical area, UM, while we are, you know, very pleased
(27:31):
they developed these vaccines for us all across the world.
We can't then take our pedal off the gas when
it comes to looking at anti competitive conduct with pharmaceuticals,
UM and I actually start my book by leading with
how I got involved, which was a newborn baby drug
called into methisin, when a pharmacist called me in Minnesota
(27:52):
said this price suddenly went out for newborn babies with
heart defects. It went of a thousand percent in one week,
and it turned out one company had bought both the drugs.
It was that simple. Um, I just think it would
surprise people. It's everything from sunglasses, as I said, to
cat food. It's a lot of consolidation going on. We'll
(28:14):
be right back, So talk to us about your plan
for both preventing monopolies and incentivizing competition, the kind of
(28:35):
actions that you think are necessary, and what your legislation
would try to do well. The first thing is making
sure these agencies that FTC and the d O G
and I trust, which are just shadows of their former selves,
making sure that the agencies are not left with band
aids and duct tape to take on the biggest companies
the world has ever known. UM. The second piece is
(28:58):
looking at the standards, and we have juvenated our anti
trust laws decade after decade after decade, and so this
is a moment where we could do that and look
at some of these gigantic mega mergers that are over
five billion dollars and say, well, for those, the government
shouldn't have to prove that it hurts competition. UM, the
company should have to prove that it doesn't. To make
(29:20):
it easier to bring the cases. Because because you weren't
President Hillary, we appointed a number of judges who have
actually have really conservative track records on anti trust, particularly Gorset,
who continues to side with Justice Thomas on these cases.
And then Justice Kavanaugh had a number of conservative cases.
(29:44):
He did go one time since becoming a Supreme Court
justice on allowing a case to go forward with Apple,
and he sided with the more liberal justices. UM, but
for the most part his records very conservative. Amy Corney
Barrett doesn't really have a record on anti trust. It
there's no reason to think she will be anything close
to where Ruth Bader Ginsburg was. So you basically, if
(30:06):
your whole hope is to wait on the Supreme Court
to stop their working in interpretation of the antitrust laws,
which is very extreme. That's probably not going to happen.
So that's what led me to believe that while the
cases should continue to be fought, especially intact, there may
be some hope on the horizon there. We've got to
make some changes that are sensible to the laws to
(30:28):
take on this. Make our laws as sophisticated as the
companies that are messing around with them. It's the only
way you're going to be able to launch the kind
of investigations we need. Putting people in place, and this
will be Congress's job to confirm them, but putting people
in place in the administrations that really want to take
this on. And Um, you know, you've got some really
(30:49):
interesting people now working on this who are outside the
box thinkers. Lena Khan's name has been nominated President Biden
for the FDC and most of Sgnificantly, Merrick Garland knows
about this like your husband. He's taught and I trust
a lot, and um it's a very complex area. And
(31:11):
he um Is brought it up when he was standing
next to President Biden when he nominated him. So I
think that's really hopeful when you have an attorney general
that understands it. Now, you know, critics um and you
know there's always critics of everything, but you know, critics say,
oh and he trust. Come on, you know number one,
(31:31):
it will drive up prices, it'll hurt innovation, and yet
there's no evidence of that. It's like so much else
that we hear from people who defend the status quo.
Do you want to just take on those two things?
You're right, the main criticisms are they first say, well,
this will somehow hurt you guys. Well, one of the
(31:51):
classics things that happens with anti trust is monopolies under price,
so it seems really good, and then once they have
no competitors, and this is history. We know, this is
is why we have these laws on the book called
an I trust. They then raised the prices and you're screwed.
You know, It's like you get a real good deal
to get in on something and then pretty soon you've
got the prices and you're stuck with it. So that's
(32:13):
just economics. That's what happens in unchecked capitalism. And so
economists are aware that you have to have this check
because basically price will go up. And I'd say the
proof is in these longer term monopolies like your cable prices,
they find they're getting some competition from streaming and the like,
but over time those prices have gone way up. Um.
(32:34):
The second thing is on innovation. So originally, and I'm
so in favor of success, and I was in the
private sector for fourteen years. I did represent m c
I by the way, so I had a front row
seat when we were fighting against the monopolies. It was
right after the A T and T breakup, and I
saw there that we got more innovation when A T
(32:55):
and T was broken up. Cell phones when it started
where the sides of like Gordon Geckos briefcase and that
would be well Street, right, And it was all of
that competition that got us to a better place. And
right now we need competition in the seed industry, um,
so that we can get better and better seeds to
adapt to climate change. We need more competition when it
(33:16):
comes to these tech companies, so not only do we
regulate our way into privacy, but they come up with
the solutions which it just has completely alluded us to
our great detriment. And so um, that's my argument is
they have brought us innovation. That's great. A T and
T did too at the beginning. We you know, with
the old telephones, right, but then you rejuvenate capitalism and
(33:38):
you do it with the n I trust laws. Well,
Senator Kloba, I'm so happy that you are in a
leadership role on these critically important issues. It's just terrific.
And the fact that you keep working so hard to
be bipartisan to find partners. You've mentioned a bunch of
Republican senators that you have worked with and are working with.
(34:00):
I only hope that you know they will stay with
you and be part of the solution to these problems
that we face. Any last words about your exciting book, Well,
for those that followed the presidential campaign, my presidential campaign,
they will be amused to know that Pete and I
of course had this ribbalry on the debate stage, but
we're truly friends. His book was called trust that he
(34:22):
put out this ball and of course mine is called
antitrust um. So that's a little fun fact. But I
think that for me taking those two issues and they
really are tied together because we cannot have a strong
democracy if it is undermined. All the time, as we
saw in all of its horror on January six by
disinformation and misinformation on the Internet. And so to me,
(34:46):
they're kind of tied together, um, and they're not the
easiest things. In the election case, you're basically taking on
the entire Republican party structure that doesn't want to see
that change. And in the antitrust you thank you all
the monopolies. Other than that, you know it's gonna be
a piece of k Hillary, but someone's got to do it,
(35:08):
as you know from those hard things you took on internationally,
I'm in your corner and I'm thrilled you're leading the charge.
Thanks so much for talking to us about this. Thank
you so much. Amy's new book is called Antitrust, Taking
on monopoly Power from the guilded Age to the Digital Age,
(35:30):
and I think you could tell from listening to her
she breaks it down and makes it all really understandable
because we all have a stake in making sure that
these monopolies don't control our lives. Well, that's it for
today's episode, and I hope you're feeling inspired to go
out and solve some problems. There is certainly no shortage
(35:54):
of them. Around us. How do we rebuild in the
wake of this pandemic. How do we address us climate
change on our personal level too, you know, the great
macro global level. How do we prevent guns from getting
in the hands of the wrong people? You know, one
of the biggest problems I'm focused on right now is
how do we persuade people to get vaccinated? People who say, oh,
(36:18):
I just don't know. Well, if you're close to somebody
who's saying that, try to help problem solved, to get
them the information they need to get vaccinated. And then,
of course I'm always trying to solve the problems facing
our country in the world. But you know, that's a
topic for another day. Before I go, I want to
make a really exciting announcement about our last episode of
(36:41):
this season. We're going to turn the tables and let you,
our listeners, ask the questions. I'll be joined by a
surprise guest, someone who makes me laugh all the time.
So if you have a question for me about the podcast,
about public service, about my favorite pants suit, what where
it might be, please give us a call at four
(37:04):
four five eight one four four one, and to all
the phone everse among us. Don't worry I won't actually
pick up the phone, so you can call seven leave
a voicemail any time of the day or night. We
just asked that you try to keep it to a
minute or so, or if you prefer, you can email
(37:26):
us your question at You and Me Both pod at
gmail dot com. Once again, that number is nine one
four four five eight one four four one. I really
look forward to hearing from you. You and Me Both
is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced
(37:49):
by Julie Supran, Kathleen Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help
from Kuma Aberdeen, Nikki e Tour, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hawk Hman,
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(38:12):
Forest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, please
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(38:36):
see you next week.
Host
Hillary Clinton
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