March 2, 2021 • 31 mins
Just over a month ago, Antony Blinken was sworn in as America’s 71st Secretary of State. It’s a role Hillary knows well, having served under President Barack Obama. In this conversation, Secretary Blinken shares his priorities for the coming months—from the refugee and climate crises to our relationships with Russia and China. He and Hillary also swap advice, memories, and a few funny stories from their years of service.
Prior to being appointed United States Secretary of State, Secretary Blinken served in senior National Security and State Department positions under the Obama and Clinton administrations. Previously, he worked as the staff director of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee with President Biden, who was the senior Democrat on the committee up until his vice-presidency.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. Today,
I am speaking with Secretary of State Tony B. Lincoln
about the incredible challenges and opportunities that he is facing
as our new Secretary of State. It's a thrill to
(00:23):
see this serious, thoughtful diplomat assume this responsibility and bring
all of the experiences of a whole lifetime, but especially
his adult working life, to the State Department on behalf
of our country. So Secretary, blink and welcome. I cannot
express how pleased I am to have this chance to
(00:45):
talk with you. Thank you. I could not be happier
to be able to spend some time with you. I've
had the good fortune to have spent a lot of
time in these halls with you in the past, the
White House, over many years, but it's particularly fun to
be connected via the podcast. Oh I agree. So let
me ask you what of your first few weeks as
Secretary of State look like and felt like to you? Well,
(01:07):
you know this better than anyone. It's a little bit
like jumping onto a treadmill that's already moving in ten
miles an hour, And partly it's just trying to hold on.
But you know, we've obviously because of COVID, it's been
a challenge, and there's a little bit of frustration that
comes with that. I remember so well when you became secretary,
you were off almost immediately on that airplane, visiting with
(01:28):
working with engaging with our allies and partners and others
around the world. I wish I could do the same thing,
but we're grounded now. The good news is I've been
burning up the phone lines. I've been saying that it's
a good thing the departments on the family plan. Otherwise
I put bankrupted the budget. So there's that. But of course,
you know as well as anyone better than anyone, it's
just not not the same thing. So I'm really looking
(01:50):
forward to being able to get out there. But what's
been so gratifying is, you know, because I've been doing
this for for a while. I started working for President Clinton,
uh and my first job was here at the State Department,
working in the front office of the European Affairs Bureau,
And so I've known the men and women of the
Department for a long time. And the greatest pleasure I've
(02:10):
had since I'm back is just reconnecting with people that
you and I know so well. Well, I can imagine
what that's like for them as well, Secretary, because it's
been a tough four years for our Foreign service officers
and our civil service officials, and it's important to do
what you're doing, which is spending time with them, talking
(02:32):
with them, listening to them. I read where you said
you felt confident and humble, and I thought that was
a really good combination. As you embark on this important job.
You run a department with tens of thousands of Foreign
Service officers, as I say, civil servant officials, and national
(02:54):
employees out around the world, and you've got to figure
out how you're going to make all of that work,
especially since I think it's fair to say you're facing
a deficit, a deficit of trust and a deficit of
you know, leadership that the prior administration left you. So
how are you trying to prioritize the myriad of challenges
(03:16):
and opportunities that you're looking at. Well, you know, you're
exactly right that, in a sense, the first challenge is
actually the building the institution, the men and women of
the department, the Foreign Service officers, the civil servants, and
as you rightly point out, what we call locally employed staff,
the thousands, the tens of thousands of extraordinary men and
women from the countries that are hosting us who work
with us and work force, and so one of the
(03:39):
things that's been so important in this early going is
to make it very clear to all of our colleagues
that we're going to be relying and depending on them
their expertise, their experience, their professionalism. And so I think
one of the things we're gonna show and people will
see in the weeks ahead as some of the senior
appointments are made, we're going to be relying heavily on
(04:00):
career professionals. They bring so much to the table, and
it would be really to operate with our hands tied
behind our backs if we didn't rely on that and
use that. The other piece, when it comes to the
institution itself, is, and this is something I feel very
strongly about, we have to have a foreign service, we
have to have career professionals, We have to have a
(04:21):
state department that looks like the country it represents, and
that's been a real deficiency for a long long time.
So I'm about to appoint the very first Chief Diversity
and Inclusion Officer will report directly of the Secretary of State.
We're going to focus on making sure we're recruiting effectively,
we're retaining people, and that there's actual accountability for making progress.
(04:43):
If we get the human resource piece of this right,
then we're going to be so much more effective around
the world and representing the country and in carrying out
the president's foreign policy. Well, starting with the work you've begun,
I was fascinated about how both you and President Biden
started close to home, reached out to our Canadian friends
(05:04):
and our Mexican friends, And that's so important because establishing
that strong relationship, especially during a time of COVID and
obviously what we have going on our southern border, makes
a lot of sense. But you and the President have
both reached out to Europe. How are our friends and
allies feeling with the new administration. Can you give us
(05:25):
any early updates on that? Well, I think it's it's
fair to say that there's been a very warm welcome
for President Biden and for all of us who've who
come along with him, and and you know, quite honestly,
a a thirst almost palpable for American engagement, and this
is what I've heard in conversation after conversation. That doesn't
(05:48):
mean we don't have differences. We want to have problems
with one of challenges, but I think there's a recognition
that in fact they're better off when we're engaged, and
of course we're better off what we're thinking about the
world that we're facing in confronting. I think two things
really stand out, and this is what animates the President's
thinking and as a result animates are farm policy. The
first is, you know, whether we like it or not,
(06:11):
the world tends not to organize itself. And when we're
engaged in leading, we can help advance our own interests
in values. But when we're not, then one or two
things is likely to happen. Either some other country is
going to try to take our place, but probably not
in a way that advances the interesting values of the
American people, or maybe just as bad no one does.
(06:31):
And then you've got a vacuum, and it's usually filled
by bad things before it's filled by good things. So
that premium on American engagement is really there. But the related,
maybe flip side of that is and again I know
this animated you so strongly as Secretary. When we look
at the things that are really going to have an
impact on our fellow citizens lives, whether it's it's climate change,
(06:53):
whether it's this pandemic, whether it's the spread of a lethal,
really dangerous weapon of mass destruction, we know that not
a single one of those challenges can be effectively dealt
with by any one country acting one, even the United States.
And also that there really is no lall high enough
or wide enough to guard against those problems. So the
other premium we find is on cooperation and finding new
(07:16):
ways to get countries to work with us and to
work with them, And that's kind of where the State
Department comes in. That's our job. The job of diplomats
is to try to build that cooperation among countries to
deal with the challenges that are actually going to have
an impact on the lives of our fellow citizens. Well,
that is exactly the definition of the job. And I
(07:37):
hope that during your service that you, working with the
President and others in the administration, can make that case
more effectively, because it's always a challenge to talk to
the American people about what it is diplomats do, what
development means, why it makes a difference. People get the Pentagon,
they get the Defense Department, but they're not quite sure
(07:59):
about what the other stuff is. And to that point,
I know that there are so many crises and conflicts
that you are going to be facing, from Afghanistan to Ethiopia, Syria, Venezuela,
and then some long term challenges posed by Russia and
most particularly China. And I was interested in some of
(08:23):
what you and the President have been saying about Russia
and how you're going to try to really send a
clear message to Vladimir Putin that you know, the former
president has gone, we're going to be, you know, imposing
costs and consequences for behavior that is really out of bounds. Well, unfortunately,
(08:45):
we've seen that in so many different areas. And the
bottom line is if we're not standing up strongly when
our interests are being challenged or when our values are
being challenged, that creates a feeling of impunity, and then
the bad conduct continues and gets worse. But in any
of these things, it's it's vitally important that we do
it with our partners and allies. But just on Russia,
(09:08):
we are in the midst of reviewing a series of
egregious actions that they've taken. Whether it is this solar
winds cyber attack that's been been written about, whether it
is what they've done to one of Mr. Putin's leading
political opponents, Alessia Navalni, using a chemical weapon to try
to kill him, whether it is these reports of the
(09:29):
Russians putting bounties on our troops in Afghanistan, whether it's
something you are all too familiar with, interference in our elections.
We are looking at all of this, and I can
tell you with some confidence that we will take the
appropriate actions as we see fit to make very clear
that this kind of conduct is unacceptable for US, and
we'll do it with our allies and partners. At the
(09:51):
same time, you know, we have other important stakes, including
with Russia. One of those is what we call in
the business strategic stability, making sure that with our still
significant arsenals, particularly of nuclear weapons, that we don't do
things that actually make conflict and god forbid of nuclear
exchange more likely. And so one of the very first
things is, you know, the President Biden did is he
(10:12):
extended the soul remaining but very important agreement between the
United States and Russia the so called news Start agreement
that puts significant limitations on our strategic nuclear arsenals, and
that's a very good thing for both countries, and we'll
look for opportunities to do more. But I think we
have to be able to walk and chew gum at
the same time stand up strongly against Russian aggression. Ukraine
continues to be a huge problem given Russia's intervention there,
(10:36):
but also look for opportunities if they present themselves to
advance our security on things like nuclear weapons. We're taking
a quick break, stay with us. It would also be
(10:58):
really worth trying to get China for the first time
into arms control agreements. How is the administration looking at China?
Because again, we have to cooperate where we can on
climate change, on global health, but then there's all the
rest that we have to take some strong stands over.
How are you thinking about China, Secretary? So as you
(11:21):
know so well, it is both one of the most
complicated relationships in the world and arguably one of the most,
if not the most consequential, and I think it's important
for people to see that there are different aspects to it.
There's an adversarial aspect, increasingly because China has been acting
more aggressively beyond its borders and unfortunately more repressively within
(11:42):
its borders. There's certainly a competitive aspect to it, but
there's also a cooperative one because on some big issues,
including climate change, we both have an interest in finding
ways to work together. But here's the common denominator. Whether
it's the adversarial piece, whether it's the competitive piece, whether
it's the cooper pies. We to be approaching China from
a position of strength. And what I think that means
(12:03):
is a few things. It means with our partners and allies,
not without those alliances. Those partnerships are a source of
strength in dealing with China. When we bring the collective
weight of our partnerships and alliances to bear, it's a
lot harder for China to ignore. Also, as we as
we were talking about just a few minutes ago, being
engaged and leaning in as opposed to abdicating our responsibilities
(12:26):
and pulling out of all of these international organizations that
are actually shaping the rules that we all have to
live by. When we pull back, China fills in. When
we're engaged and leading, that's a source of strength. Third
is a source of strength for us to actually stand
up for the values we believe in. So when we
see in chinging weaker as being put into concentration camps,
when we see democracy being trampled in Hong Kong, it's
(12:48):
important that we stand up and point that out, that
we don't ignore it, and that we get others to
join us. And then, finally, and maybe maybe most importantly,
we have to be investing in ourselves, in our own people,
in our own workers, in our own companies, in our
own competitiveness. Because if we do that, and if we
get a reasonably fair and level playing field, we're going
to do just fine in the competition. I have tremendous confidence.
(13:12):
But if we don't do it, that's going to allow
China to be acting from position strength and not the
United States. Oh and there's a last thing too that
I think it is so important. We also have to
be strong and resilient in terms of our own democracy,
because when we're questioning our own institutions, when we're attacking
each other, that is the surest way to undermine the
(13:33):
strength that we need to bring to this strategic competition
with China. So I hope, particularly because this really is
in many ways of bipartisan challenge. I hope that we
can come together so we can do this smartly, effectively
and advance the interests of the country. Well, it needs
to be bipartisan, even nonpartisan, because how we structure our
(13:54):
relationship with China going forward will have such serious implications.
And you have several times stressed the importance of our alliances,
working with our partners, and the significance of international agreements.
And I was really delighted to see that the administration
quickly went back into the Paris Accord on climate change,
(14:17):
and I know you'll be working very hard on that,
and you're also working to see if we can somehow
reconstitute the Iran Agreement that you know, put a lid
on Iran's efforts to get a nuclear arsenal. And just
to go to that point you made about working with others,
you know, when I was in the Senate for eight years,
I voted for every sanction against Iran that was ever
(14:41):
put up for a vote, and you were there working
with Senator Biden at that time, and we did everything
we could to try to limit their options, to put
pressure on them, but without the world it didn't matter.
And so As Secretary, I started working to put together
international sanction, which then the U N. Security Council passed
(15:02):
in June, and we began negotiations which were then completed
in the second term of President Obama. And what people
who pop up and talk about international agreements often really
do an injustice to our understanding, is to act as
though there's a perfect agreement somewhere and all we have
(15:23):
to do is, you know, pick up a rock and
find it. You know, negotiations are difficult, they are time consuming,
and oftentimes you don't get a PC, but you get
as much as you can. And with the Iran Agreement,
I think we got a long way towards stopping Iran
from getting a nuclear weapon, all of which was then
(15:44):
thrown out the window by the Trump administration. So do
you look to see how you're going to be able
to bring that alliance back together, which included China and
Russia by the way, UH to try to prevent Iran
from getting a nuclear weapon resolutely. And and to your point,
I think it really is important to understand that by definition,
(16:06):
negotiations are always going to be imperfect. No one gets
of what they want. But as President Biden likes to say,
don't compare me to to the almighty compared to the alternative,
and that's really important. So the foundation that you set
first in the Senate but then as a Secretary of
State is what allowed us to get the agreement that
we reached, and I feel very strongly that that was
(16:27):
the right thing to do, because, as we both know,
before the agreement, Iran was speeding toward the day when
it would have the ability to produce enough to all
material for a nuclear weapon on very short order time
we reached the agreement, it was getting down towards weeks,
and that would have given us a very very hard
choice to face either between allowing that to happen and
(16:50):
Iran having a nuclear weapon or being on the threshold
of having one and thus feeling it connect with even
greater impunity, or maybe having to take military action with
all of the possible unintended consequences that flow from that,
to deal with it. And so I think the best
answer that we came up with was the agreement that
that was reached that put the nuclear program in a
box and that cut off its pathways to being able
(17:12):
to produce the material it would need for a weapon,
and push that so called breakout time past one year,
so that if they did start back in that direction,
we've got plenty of time to organize the world and
to do something about it. We had very strong sanctions
that were poised to snap back if Iran violated the agreement,
and maybe most important, the most intrusive monitoring an inspections
(17:34):
regime that we've ever had for any arms control agreement,
and our own intelligence folks said that Iran was respecting
its commitments, even it's doing a lot of other things
that we don't like. So now after we got out
of the deal, Rand felt, well, we can go ahead
and no longer comply with the obligations that we undertook,
and it is now getting back to that point where
(17:56):
it could produce the seal material for a weapon on
very short order. So I think we have an interest
in putting that back in a box and then seeing
if we can actually build something even longer and stronger
in terms of the duration of the agreement, and also
dealing with some of the other actions that around takes
that we have a real problem with ballistic missiles, the
actions that takes in its neighborhood. The good news is
(18:19):
because we've made a clear commitment that we're prepared to
re engage in diplomacy. The very allies and partners we
need and who are alienated from us because we got
out of the diplomacy business are now back with us,
and that means they're also prepared to join us in
taking strong action is necessary against some of the other
things Around does that that we don't like. So we'll see,
(18:40):
we're a long way from getting back to where we were.
We we don't know what around will do or won't do,
but I think that it offers at least the possibility
of dealing with the nuclear problem, uh and then hopefully
dealing with some of the other problems. When I look
around the world and I think about everything on your
plate and all that you are going to be addressing
(19:04):
as Secretary of State, it's these transnational, global problems that
you cannot imagine dealing with unless you have the kind
of attitude you've just expressed, Mr Secretary. You know, I
worry a lot about the flow of migration, which we
know is going to be exacerbated by climate change, and
(19:24):
we need to bring the world together to do something
we we used to do, you know, decades ago kind
of look ahead somewhat, you know, convene some international efforts
on several fronts. One, obviously, what do we do about
refugee flow? How do we try to deal with the
problems in the host country. In our hemisphere, it's primarily
(19:47):
now Central America, even more than Mexico, that is unfortunately
seeing people flee for a better life moving north toward
our border. In Europe, it's you know, Syria, it's North Africa. Uh,
it's Afghanistan. Can you think about some of the big
areas that maybe on a longer time frame, US Secretary,
(20:08):
working with your counterparts around the world, could begin a
process of trying to figure out what do we do
about refugees, What do we do about rebuilding the w
h O, getting better prepared for the next pandemic? What
do we do to defend democracy? Those are three big
kind of cross cutting issues. Yeah. Absolutely, And it really
(20:30):
does go back to what we started talking about, which
is both having a sense of humility and confidence at
the same time. I think they're flip sides at the
same point. Humility because we certainly don't get everything right ourselves,
and a lot of these problems are also not in
the first instance, necessarily about us, even as they affect us,
and we can't just flip a switch and expect to
solve them. But but confidence, because I still believe profoundly
(20:51):
as I know you did, that when the United States
is acting at its best, we still have a greater
ability than any country on Earth to mobilize others in
collective action, to bring other countries together to try to
solve problems. And the big ones you just outlined are
actually having a real effect on the lives of our
fellow citizens, so we have an interest in in doing
something about them. The refugee situation, we have more people
(21:14):
on the move around the planet than at any time
since World War Two, about seventy million who have been
felt compelled to leave their homes in one place or another.
That's the magnitude of the problem, and by definition, no
one country can tackle it alone. To your point, I
think there's a lot that we can do collectively. For example,
First of all, we want to try to do what
(21:36):
we can with other countries to prevent and if necessary,
end conflicts that are in many places forcing people to flee. Second,
these countries that take them in remarkable generosity. If you
you mentioned Syrian refugees. As you know, if you go
to Turkey, to Lebanon to Jordan's you see populations that
are in some cases a quarter of the population is
(21:58):
a Syrian refugee. That puts huge strain on local economies,
on local resources. So I think collectively we have an
interest in helping these countries the first refuge be able
to care for the refugees who they have, because on average,
once someone's refugee, they tend to stay that way for
well over a decade. So we have to help these countries,
and then we have to put in place the support.
(22:19):
The financing in the United States has to do it's
part as well. We have long been a beacon for
refugees around the world. That's something that I know the
President is committed to restoring. But we also have to
be very mindful of our own orders, our own security,
and we're very focused on that. Northern Triangle countries Guatemala, Salvador, Honduras,
as you said, are increasingly the source of forced migration here,
(22:42):
and what's the answer there. The main answer is really
trying to deal with some of the so called root causes.
You know, it's always amazed me. Some people seem to
think in Washington, for example, that someone gets up in
the morning and says, Gee, wouldn't this be a great
day to leave everything I know behind? To leave my language,
my culture, my friends, my family, my city, put myself
(23:04):
on the hands of traffickers, you know, take this incredibly
hazardous journey, and then maybe go someplace where I don't
know anyone and maybe I'm not so wanted. It takes
something extraordinary to compel people to feel that that's the
only choice they have. So if you can help the
countries in question deal with some of those drivers, deal
(23:24):
with the corruption, deal with the crime uh and insecurity,
deal with the lack of opportunity, and give people a
reason to stay home and help build the future of
their own country, that ultimately is how you get to
the bottom this. But it takes time. It takes sustained effort,
and that's something I know President Biden's committed to doing.
(23:45):
We'll be right back. Well, I know, um, you're gonna
have to get onto the important business of state. But
something that people don't know about you, although it's recently
broken in the press, is that you have your own
(24:08):
Spotify channel where you post music you've recorded, So I
have to ask, are you gonna be able to keep
this going as Secretary of State and and maybe jam with,
you know, other foreign ministers around the world, and even
have a public performance on the eighth floor of the
State Department, where we do all of the entertaining. And
(24:29):
it's hard to think of anything that would do more
damage to our foreign policy or diplomacy than me doing that,
you know. Uh So I wouldn't inflick that on my
colleagues here or or or anyone abroad. It's been a
lifelong passion something I'd taken immense enjoyment out of, you know.
If I had a chance to actually do that as
a career, I would have done it. And it turned
(24:49):
out there was only one missing ingredient, which was talent.
It turns out also that the only people who seem
to like or tolerate my music are extremely young children
who haven't yet to golop critical factory. That's that's that's
my demographical I'll play for my kids, but maybe not
for anyone else. Well, keep playing for your kids. I
(25:10):
used to sing to my daughter when she was a
baby until she learned to talk, and it was a
memorable tragic evening when I'm singing away to her, rocking
her before I put her to bed, and she reaches
up and puts her little finger on my mouth and says,
no sing, Mommy, no sing. So keep singing until you're
told otherwise. And finally, what's the best advice you've gotten
(25:33):
since you've started this amazing important job? You know, it's
it's it's funny. I was thinking back, and actually it's
really advice that I got when I first started working
for President Clinton and first set foot actually in the
White House way back in And that's the advice that
stayed with me, and it still animates what I think
(25:53):
about this job, which is, make sure you have reverence
and appreciation or the institution that you're working in and
helping the lead and that extraordinary responsibility opportunity of doing
a job with the American flag behind you every day.
But also never lose your sense of humor and never
lose your sense of where you actually fit in to
(26:16):
that larger scheme and larger sleep of history. And as
long as you keep your eyes focused on both, you'll
do okay. Well, that really resonates with me because the
late Great George Schultz, who served in the positions that
you hold and that I was honored to hold, came
to see me one day in the Ceremonial office on
the seventh floor, and he brought with him a teddy bear,
(26:40):
and he said, you're gonna face a lot of serious issues.
You're gonna have a lot of problems. It's not always
going to go our way in the United States, so
just do the best you can. But then remember, and
he punched the little paw of the teddy bear, and
the teddy bear started to sing, don't worry, be happy.
(27:02):
That is, if I can find another one, Tony, I'll
send it to you. I will look for I'm looking
for it right now. And I can't resist because you
mentioned George Schultz, who I revered also. And uh, you know.
The other wonderful story about Secretary Schultz was before one
of our new ambassadors was sent off to post to
(27:23):
represent the United States, he is Secretary would call them
into that office, and you may remember he had a
very large globe and he would ask them to point
to their country on the globe. And so our new
ambassador would try to find South Africa or or Poland,
and he would gently correct them and put their finger
on the United States. And maybe that's the other most
(27:46):
important piece of advice that I've gotten, and it's from
the President of the United States, Joe Biden, which is
ultimately our job is to be here on behalf of
the American people and to make sure that everything we're
doing has them in mind. Anything we're doing around the world,
is it going in some way, maybe even some small way,
going to make their life a little bit better, a
(28:07):
little bit safer, a little bit more prosperous, a little
bit more hopeful. And if we keep that in mind,
we'll have a good north star and be pretty grounded
in what we do. Wow, that's a great way to
end our conversation. I am so delighted to have this
chance to talk with you, but I'm even more thrilled
that you are serving in this capacity, Secretary B. Lincoln,
(28:28):
and I join every well meaning American and wishing you
the very best as you tackle these problems on our behalf.
Thank you so much, Thank you, madam, Secretary. Wonderful to
be with you. I really hope that people will follow
(28:48):
what the President, the Vice President and Secretary B. Lincoln
are doing for our country because we talk about it
as though it's foreign policy. But I think it's really
important to stress that a lot of what happens in
the world, like a pandemic, like climate change, like refugees
fleeing their own countries, has a direct impact on our
(29:12):
own country, our prosperity, our security. So I hope listeners
will not think of foreign policy as being foreign, but
being part of how we act in the world and
how we try to make life better for Americans right
here at home. On a slightly different note, I'm excited
(29:35):
to share some news about an upcoming project, and it
has to do with a secretary of state. You know,
I was a big fan of the mystery writer Louise
Penny before she and I became good friends, and now
we are teaming up as co authors to write a
political thriller about a secretary of state, well a fictional
(29:55):
secretary of state anyway, but obviously it draws on my
experiences and the experiences of others to tell a really
exciting story. The book is called State of Terror, and
it comes out on October twelfth of this year, and
you can preorder it now. In the meantime, you can
listen to my interview with Louise from season one. The
(30:18):
episode is called Books. Thanks so much for joining us
this week. We'd love to hear from you with your
thoughts on season two, your ideas for future episodes, or
really anything else is on your mind. Just send an
email to You and Me Both pod at gmail dot com.
(30:40):
You and Me Both is brought to you by my
Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and
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(31:02):
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You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. Today,
I am speaking with Secretary of State Tony B. Lincoln
about the incredible challenges and opportunities that he is facing
as our new Secretary of State. It's a thrill to
(00:23):
see this serious, thoughtful diplomat assume this responsibility and bring
all of the experiences of a whole lifetime, but especially
his adult working life, to the State Department on behalf
of our country. So Secretary, blink and welcome. I cannot
express how pleased I am to have this chance to
(00:45):
talk with you. Thank you. I could not be happier
to be able to spend some time with you. I've
had the good fortune to have spent a lot of
time in these halls with you in the past, the
White House, over many years, but it's particularly fun to
be connected via the podcast. Oh I agree. So let
me ask you what of your first few weeks as
Secretary of State look like and felt like to you? Well,
(01:07):
you know this better than anyone. It's a little bit
like jumping onto a treadmill that's already moving in ten
miles an hour, And partly it's just trying to hold on.
But you know, we've obviously because of COVID, it's been
a challenge, and there's a little bit of frustration that
comes with that. I remember so well when you became secretary,
you were off almost immediately on that airplane, visiting with
(01:28):
working with engaging with our allies and partners and others
around the world. I wish I could do the same thing,
but we're grounded now. The good news is I've been
burning up the phone lines. I've been saying that it's
a good thing the departments on the family plan. Otherwise
I put bankrupted the budget. So there's that. But of course,
you know as well as anyone better than anyone, it's
just not not the same thing. So I'm really looking
(01:50):
forward to being able to get out there. But what's
been so gratifying is, you know, because I've been doing
this for for a while. I started working for President Clinton,
uh and my first job was here at the State Department,
working in the front office of the European Affairs Bureau,
And so I've known the men and women of the
Department for a long time. And the greatest pleasure I've
(02:10):
had since I'm back is just reconnecting with people that
you and I know so well. Well, I can imagine
what that's like for them as well, Secretary, because it's
been a tough four years for our Foreign service officers
and our civil service officials, and it's important to do
what you're doing, which is spending time with them, talking
(02:32):
with them, listening to them. I read where you said
you felt confident and humble, and I thought that was
a really good combination. As you embark on this important job.
You run a department with tens of thousands of Foreign
Service officers, as I say, civil servant officials, and national
(02:54):
employees out around the world, and you've got to figure
out how you're going to make all of that work,
especially since I think it's fair to say you're facing
a deficit, a deficit of trust and a deficit of
you know, leadership that the prior administration left you. So
how are you trying to prioritize the myriad of challenges
(03:16):
and opportunities that you're looking at. Well, you know, you're
exactly right that, in a sense, the first challenge is
actually the building the institution, the men and women of
the department, the Foreign Service officers, the civil servants, and
as you rightly point out, what we call locally employed staff,
the thousands, the tens of thousands of extraordinary men and
women from the countries that are hosting us who work
with us and work force, and so one of the
(03:39):
things that's been so important in this early going is
to make it very clear to all of our colleagues
that we're going to be relying and depending on them
their expertise, their experience, their professionalism. And so I think
one of the things we're gonna show and people will
see in the weeks ahead as some of the senior
appointments are made, we're going to be relying heavily on
(04:00):
career professionals. They bring so much to the table, and
it would be really to operate with our hands tied
behind our backs if we didn't rely on that and
use that. The other piece, when it comes to the
institution itself, is, and this is something I feel very
strongly about, we have to have a foreign service, we
have to have career professionals, We have to have a
(04:21):
state department that looks like the country it represents, and
that's been a real deficiency for a long long time.
So I'm about to appoint the very first Chief Diversity
and Inclusion Officer will report directly of the Secretary of State.
We're going to focus on making sure we're recruiting effectively,
we're retaining people, and that there's actual accountability for making progress.
(04:43):
If we get the human resource piece of this right,
then we're going to be so much more effective around
the world and representing the country and in carrying out
the president's foreign policy. Well, starting with the work you've begun,
I was fascinated about how both you and President Biden
started close to home, reached out to our Canadian friends
(05:04):
and our Mexican friends, And that's so important because establishing
that strong relationship, especially during a time of COVID and
obviously what we have going on our southern border, makes
a lot of sense. But you and the President have
both reached out to Europe. How are our friends and
allies feeling with the new administration. Can you give us
(05:25):
any early updates on that? Well, I think it's it's
fair to say that there's been a very warm welcome
for President Biden and for all of us who've who
come along with him, and and you know, quite honestly,
a a thirst almost palpable for American engagement, and this
is what I've heard in conversation after conversation. That doesn't
(05:48):
mean we don't have differences. We want to have problems
with one of challenges, but I think there's a recognition
that in fact they're better off when we're engaged, and
of course we're better off what we're thinking about the
world that we're facing in confronting. I think two things
really stand out, and this is what animates the President's
thinking and as a result animates are farm policy. The
first is, you know, whether we like it or not,
(06:11):
the world tends not to organize itself. And when we're
engaged in leading, we can help advance our own interests
in values. But when we're not, then one or two
things is likely to happen. Either some other country is
going to try to take our place, but probably not
in a way that advances the interesting values of the
American people, or maybe just as bad no one does.
(06:31):
And then you've got a vacuum, and it's usually filled
by bad things before it's filled by good things. So
that premium on American engagement is really there. But the related,
maybe flip side of that is and again I know
this animated you so strongly as Secretary. When we look
at the things that are really going to have an
impact on our fellow citizens lives, whether it's it's climate change,
(06:53):
whether it's this pandemic, whether it's the spread of a lethal,
really dangerous weapon of mass destruction, we know that not
a single one of those challenges can be effectively dealt
with by any one country acting one, even the United States.
And also that there really is no lall high enough
or wide enough to guard against those problems. So the
other premium we find is on cooperation and finding new
(07:16):
ways to get countries to work with us and to
work with them, And that's kind of where the State
Department comes in. That's our job. The job of diplomats
is to try to build that cooperation among countries to
deal with the challenges that are actually going to have
an impact on the lives of our fellow citizens. Well,
that is exactly the definition of the job. And I
(07:37):
hope that during your service that you, working with the
President and others in the administration, can make that case
more effectively, because it's always a challenge to talk to
the American people about what it is diplomats do, what
development means, why it makes a difference. People get the Pentagon,
they get the Defense Department, but they're not quite sure
(07:59):
about what the other stuff is. And to that point,
I know that there are so many crises and conflicts
that you are going to be facing, from Afghanistan to Ethiopia, Syria, Venezuela,
and then some long term challenges posed by Russia and
most particularly China. And I was interested in some of
(08:23):
what you and the President have been saying about Russia
and how you're going to try to really send a
clear message to Vladimir Putin that you know, the former
president has gone, we're going to be, you know, imposing
costs and consequences for behavior that is really out of bounds. Well, unfortunately,
(08:45):
we've seen that in so many different areas. And the
bottom line is if we're not standing up strongly when
our interests are being challenged or when our values are
being challenged, that creates a feeling of impunity, and then
the bad conduct continues and gets worse. But in any
of these things, it's it's vitally important that we do
it with our partners and allies. But just on Russia,
(09:08):
we are in the midst of reviewing a series of
egregious actions that they've taken. Whether it is this solar
winds cyber attack that's been been written about, whether it
is what they've done to one of Mr. Putin's leading
political opponents, Alessia Navalni, using a chemical weapon to try
to kill him, whether it is these reports of the
(09:29):
Russians putting bounties on our troops in Afghanistan, whether it's
something you are all too familiar with, interference in our elections.
We are looking at all of this, and I can
tell you with some confidence that we will take the
appropriate actions as we see fit to make very clear
that this kind of conduct is unacceptable for US, and
we'll do it with our allies and partners. At the
(09:51):
same time, you know, we have other important stakes, including
with Russia. One of those is what we call in
the business strategic stability, making sure that with our still
significant arsenals, particularly of nuclear weapons, that we don't do
things that actually make conflict and god forbid of nuclear
exchange more likely. And so one of the very first
things is, you know, the President Biden did is he
(10:12):
extended the soul remaining but very important agreement between the
United States and Russia the so called news Start agreement
that puts significant limitations on our strategic nuclear arsenals, and
that's a very good thing for both countries, and we'll
look for opportunities to do more. But I think we
have to be able to walk and chew gum at
the same time stand up strongly against Russian aggression. Ukraine
continues to be a huge problem given Russia's intervention there,
(10:36):
but also look for opportunities if they present themselves to
advance our security on things like nuclear weapons. We're taking
a quick break, stay with us. It would also be
(10:58):
really worth trying to get China for the first time
into arms control agreements. How is the administration looking at China?
Because again, we have to cooperate where we can on
climate change, on global health, but then there's all the
rest that we have to take some strong stands over.
How are you thinking about China, Secretary? So as you
(11:21):
know so well, it is both one of the most
complicated relationships in the world and arguably one of the most,
if not the most consequential, and I think it's important
for people to see that there are different aspects to it.
There's an adversarial aspect, increasingly because China has been acting
more aggressively beyond its borders and unfortunately more repressively within
(11:42):
its borders. There's certainly a competitive aspect to it, but
there's also a cooperative one because on some big issues,
including climate change, we both have an interest in finding
ways to work together. But here's the common denominator. Whether
it's the adversarial piece, whether it's the competitive piece, whether
it's the cooper pies. We to be approaching China from
a position of strength. And what I think that means
(12:03):
is a few things. It means with our partners and allies,
not without those alliances. Those partnerships are a source of
strength in dealing with China. When we bring the collective
weight of our partnerships and alliances to bear, it's a
lot harder for China to ignore. Also, as we as
we were talking about just a few minutes ago, being
engaged and leaning in as opposed to abdicating our responsibilities
(12:26):
and pulling out of all of these international organizations that
are actually shaping the rules that we all have to
live by. When we pull back, China fills in. When
we're engaged and leading, that's a source of strength. Third
is a source of strength for us to actually stand
up for the values we believe in. So when we
see in chinging weaker as being put into concentration camps,
when we see democracy being trampled in Hong Kong, it's
(12:48):
important that we stand up and point that out, that
we don't ignore it, and that we get others to
join us. And then, finally, and maybe maybe most importantly,
we have to be investing in ourselves, in our own people,
in our own workers, in our own companies, in our
own competitiveness. Because if we do that, and if we
get a reasonably fair and level playing field, we're going
to do just fine in the competition. I have tremendous confidence.
(13:12):
But if we don't do it, that's going to allow
China to be acting from position strength and not the
United States. Oh and there's a last thing too that
I think it is so important. We also have to
be strong and resilient in terms of our own democracy,
because when we're questioning our own institutions, when we're attacking
each other, that is the surest way to undermine the
(13:33):
strength that we need to bring to this strategic competition
with China. So I hope, particularly because this really is
in many ways of bipartisan challenge. I hope that we
can come together so we can do this smartly, effectively
and advance the interests of the country. Well, it needs
to be bipartisan, even nonpartisan, because how we structure our
(13:54):
relationship with China going forward will have such serious implications.
And you have several times stressed the importance of our alliances,
working with our partners, and the significance of international agreements.
And I was really delighted to see that the administration
quickly went back into the Paris Accord on climate change,
(14:17):
and I know you'll be working very hard on that,
and you're also working to see if we can somehow
reconstitute the Iran Agreement that you know, put a lid
on Iran's efforts to get a nuclear arsenal. And just
to go to that point you made about working with others,
you know, when I was in the Senate for eight years,
I voted for every sanction against Iran that was ever
(14:41):
put up for a vote, and you were there working
with Senator Biden at that time, and we did everything
we could to try to limit their options, to put
pressure on them, but without the world it didn't matter.
And so As Secretary, I started working to put together
international sanction, which then the U N. Security Council passed
(15:02):
in June, and we began negotiations which were then completed
in the second term of President Obama. And what people
who pop up and talk about international agreements often really
do an injustice to our understanding, is to act as
though there's a perfect agreement somewhere and all we have
(15:23):
to do is, you know, pick up a rock and
find it. You know, negotiations are difficult, they are time consuming,
and oftentimes you don't get a PC, but you get
as much as you can. And with the Iran Agreement,
I think we got a long way towards stopping Iran
from getting a nuclear weapon, all of which was then
(15:44):
thrown out the window by the Trump administration. So do
you look to see how you're going to be able
to bring that alliance back together, which included China and
Russia by the way, UH to try to prevent Iran
from getting a nuclear weapon resolutely. And and to your point,
I think it really is important to understand that by definition,
(16:06):
negotiations are always going to be imperfect. No one gets
of what they want. But as President Biden likes to say,
don't compare me to to the almighty compared to the alternative,
and that's really important. So the foundation that you set
first in the Senate but then as a Secretary of
State is what allowed us to get the agreement that
we reached, and I feel very strongly that that was
(16:27):
the right thing to do, because, as we both know,
before the agreement, Iran was speeding toward the day when
it would have the ability to produce enough to all
material for a nuclear weapon on very short order time
we reached the agreement, it was getting down towards weeks,
and that would have given us a very very hard
choice to face either between allowing that to happen and
(16:50):
Iran having a nuclear weapon or being on the threshold
of having one and thus feeling it connect with even
greater impunity, or maybe having to take military action with
all of the possible unintended consequences that flow from that,
to deal with it. And so I think the best
answer that we came up with was the agreement that
that was reached that put the nuclear program in a
box and that cut off its pathways to being able
(17:12):
to produce the material it would need for a weapon,
and push that so called breakout time past one year,
so that if they did start back in that direction,
we've got plenty of time to organize the world and
to do something about it. We had very strong sanctions
that were poised to snap back if Iran violated the agreement,
and maybe most important, the most intrusive monitoring an inspections
(17:34):
regime that we've ever had for any arms control agreement,
and our own intelligence folks said that Iran was respecting
its commitments, even it's doing a lot of other things
that we don't like. So now after we got out
of the deal, Rand felt, well, we can go ahead
and no longer comply with the obligations that we undertook,
and it is now getting back to that point where
(17:56):
it could produce the seal material for a weapon on
very short order. So I think we have an interest
in putting that back in a box and then seeing
if we can actually build something even longer and stronger
in terms of the duration of the agreement, and also
dealing with some of the other actions that around takes
that we have a real problem with ballistic missiles, the
actions that takes in its neighborhood. The good news is
(18:19):
because we've made a clear commitment that we're prepared to
re engage in diplomacy. The very allies and partners we
need and who are alienated from us because we got
out of the diplomacy business are now back with us,
and that means they're also prepared to join us in
taking strong action is necessary against some of the other
things Around does that that we don't like. So we'll see,
(18:40):
we're a long way from getting back to where we were.
We we don't know what around will do or won't do,
but I think that it offers at least the possibility
of dealing with the nuclear problem, uh and then hopefully
dealing with some of the other problems. When I look
around the world and I think about everything on your
plate and all that you are going to be addressing
(19:04):
as Secretary of State, it's these transnational, global problems that
you cannot imagine dealing with unless you have the kind
of attitude you've just expressed, Mr Secretary. You know, I
worry a lot about the flow of migration, which we
know is going to be exacerbated by climate change, and
(19:24):
we need to bring the world together to do something
we we used to do, you know, decades ago kind
of look ahead somewhat, you know, convene some international efforts
on several fronts. One, obviously, what do we do about
refugee flow? How do we try to deal with the
problems in the host country. In our hemisphere, it's primarily
(19:47):
now Central America, even more than Mexico, that is unfortunately
seeing people flee for a better life moving north toward
our border. In Europe, it's you know, Syria, it's North Africa. Uh,
it's Afghanistan. Can you think about some of the big
areas that maybe on a longer time frame, US Secretary,
(20:08):
working with your counterparts around the world, could begin a
process of trying to figure out what do we do
about refugees, What do we do about rebuilding the w
h O, getting better prepared for the next pandemic? What
do we do to defend democracy? Those are three big
kind of cross cutting issues. Yeah. Absolutely, And it really
(20:30):
does go back to what we started talking about, which
is both having a sense of humility and confidence at
the same time. I think they're flip sides at the
same point. Humility because we certainly don't get everything right ourselves,
and a lot of these problems are also not in
the first instance, necessarily about us, even as they affect us,
and we can't just flip a switch and expect to
solve them. But but confidence, because I still believe profoundly
(20:51):
as I know you did, that when the United States
is acting at its best, we still have a greater
ability than any country on Earth to mobilize others in
collective action, to bring other countries together to try to
solve problems. And the big ones you just outlined are
actually having a real effect on the lives of our
fellow citizens, so we have an interest in in doing
something about them. The refugee situation, we have more people
(21:14):
on the move around the planet than at any time
since World War Two, about seventy million who have been
felt compelled to leave their homes in one place or another.
That's the magnitude of the problem, and by definition, no
one country can tackle it alone. To your point, I
think there's a lot that we can do collectively. For example,
First of all, we want to try to do what
(21:36):
we can with other countries to prevent and if necessary,
end conflicts that are in many places forcing people to flee. Second,
these countries that take them in remarkable generosity. If you
you mentioned Syrian refugees. As you know, if you go
to Turkey, to Lebanon to Jordan's you see populations that
are in some cases a quarter of the population is
(21:58):
a Syrian refugee. That puts huge strain on local economies,
on local resources. So I think collectively we have an
interest in helping these countries the first refuge be able
to care for the refugees who they have, because on average,
once someone's refugee, they tend to stay that way for
well over a decade. So we have to help these countries,
and then we have to put in place the support.
(22:19):
The financing in the United States has to do it's
part as well. We have long been a beacon for
refugees around the world. That's something that I know the
President is committed to restoring. But we also have to
be very mindful of our own orders, our own security,
and we're very focused on that. Northern Triangle countries Guatemala, Salvador, Honduras,
as you said, are increasingly the source of forced migration here,
(22:42):
and what's the answer there. The main answer is really
trying to deal with some of the so called root causes.
You know, it's always amazed me. Some people seem to
think in Washington, for example, that someone gets up in
the morning and says, Gee, wouldn't this be a great
day to leave everything I know behind? To leave my language,
my culture, my friends, my family, my city, put myself
(23:04):
on the hands of traffickers, you know, take this incredibly
hazardous journey, and then maybe go someplace where I don't
know anyone and maybe I'm not so wanted. It takes
something extraordinary to compel people to feel that that's the
only choice they have. So if you can help the
countries in question deal with some of those drivers, deal
(23:24):
with the corruption, deal with the crime uh and insecurity,
deal with the lack of opportunity, and give people a
reason to stay home and help build the future of
their own country, that ultimately is how you get to
the bottom this. But it takes time. It takes sustained effort,
and that's something I know President Biden's committed to doing.
(23:45):
We'll be right back. Well, I know, um, you're gonna
have to get onto the important business of state. But
something that people don't know about you, although it's recently
broken in the press, is that you have your own
(24:08):
Spotify channel where you post music you've recorded, So I
have to ask, are you gonna be able to keep
this going as Secretary of State and and maybe jam with,
you know, other foreign ministers around the world, and even
have a public performance on the eighth floor of the
State Department, where we do all of the entertaining. And
(24:29):
it's hard to think of anything that would do more
damage to our foreign policy or diplomacy than me doing that,
you know. Uh So I wouldn't inflick that on my
colleagues here or or or anyone abroad. It's been a
lifelong passion something I'd taken immense enjoyment out of, you know.
If I had a chance to actually do that as
a career, I would have done it. And it turned
(24:49):
out there was only one missing ingredient, which was talent.
It turns out also that the only people who seem
to like or tolerate my music are extremely young children
who haven't yet to golop critical factory. That's that's that's
my demographical I'll play for my kids, but maybe not
for anyone else. Well, keep playing for your kids. I
(25:10):
used to sing to my daughter when she was a
baby until she learned to talk, and it was a
memorable tragic evening when I'm singing away to her, rocking
her before I put her to bed, and she reaches
up and puts her little finger on my mouth and says,
no sing, Mommy, no sing. So keep singing until you're
told otherwise. And finally, what's the best advice you've gotten
(25:33):
since you've started this amazing important job? You know, it's
it's it's funny. I was thinking back, and actually it's
really advice that I got when I first started working
for President Clinton and first set foot actually in the
White House way back in And that's the advice that
stayed with me, and it still animates what I think
(25:53):
about this job, which is, make sure you have reverence
and appreciation or the institution that you're working in and
helping the lead and that extraordinary responsibility opportunity of doing
a job with the American flag behind you every day.
But also never lose your sense of humor and never
lose your sense of where you actually fit in to
(26:16):
that larger scheme and larger sleep of history. And as
long as you keep your eyes focused on both, you'll
do okay. Well, that really resonates with me because the
late Great George Schultz, who served in the positions that
you hold and that I was honored to hold, came
to see me one day in the Ceremonial office on
the seventh floor, and he brought with him a teddy bear,
(26:40):
and he said, you're gonna face a lot of serious issues.
You're gonna have a lot of problems. It's not always
going to go our way in the United States, so
just do the best you can. But then remember, and
he punched the little paw of the teddy bear, and
the teddy bear started to sing, don't worry, be happy.
(27:02):
That is, if I can find another one, Tony, I'll
send it to you. I will look for I'm looking
for it right now. And I can't resist because you
mentioned George Schultz, who I revered also. And uh, you know.
The other wonderful story about Secretary Schultz was before one
of our new ambassadors was sent off to post to
(27:23):
represent the United States, he is Secretary would call them
into that office, and you may remember he had a
very large globe and he would ask them to point
to their country on the globe. And so our new
ambassador would try to find South Africa or or Poland,
and he would gently correct them and put their finger
on the United States. And maybe that's the other most
(27:46):
important piece of advice that I've gotten, and it's from
the President of the United States, Joe Biden, which is
ultimately our job is to be here on behalf of
the American people and to make sure that everything we're
doing has them in mind. Anything we're doing around the world,
is it going in some way, maybe even some small way,
going to make their life a little bit better, a
(28:07):
little bit safer, a little bit more prosperous, a little
bit more hopeful. And if we keep that in mind,
we'll have a good north star and be pretty grounded
in what we do. Wow, that's a great way to
end our conversation. I am so delighted to have this
chance to talk with you, but I'm even more thrilled
that you are serving in this capacity, Secretary B. Lincoln,
(28:28):
and I join every well meaning American and wishing you
the very best as you tackle these problems on our behalf.
Thank you so much, Thank you, madam, Secretary. Wonderful to
be with you. I really hope that people will follow
(28:48):
what the President, the Vice President and Secretary B. Lincoln
are doing for our country because we talk about it
as though it's foreign policy. But I think it's really
important to stress that a lot of what happens in
the world, like a pandemic, like climate change, like refugees
fleeing their own countries, has a direct impact on our
(29:12):
own country, our prosperity, our security. So I hope listeners
will not think of foreign policy as being foreign, but
being part of how we act in the world and
how we try to make life better for Americans right
here at home. On a slightly different note, I'm excited
(29:35):
to share some news about an upcoming project, and it
has to do with a secretary of state. You know,
I was a big fan of the mystery writer Louise
Penny before she and I became good friends, and now
we are teaming up as co authors to write a
political thriller about a secretary of state, well a fictional
(29:55):
secretary of state anyway, but obviously it draws on my
experiences and the experiences of others to tell a really
exciting story. The book is called State of Terror, and
it comes out on October twelfth of this year, and
you can preorder it now. In the meantime, you can
listen to my interview with Louise from season one. The
(30:18):
episode is called Books. Thanks so much for joining us
this week. We'd love to hear from you with your
thoughts on season two, your ideas for future episodes, or
really anything else is on your mind. Just send an
email to You and Me Both pod at gmail dot com.
(30:40):
You and Me Both is brought to you by my
Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and
Lauren Peterson, with help from Juma Aberdeen, Nikki e tour,
Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Rob Russo,
and Lona Vel Moro. Our engineer is Zach McNeice and
(31:02):
the original music is by Forest Gray. If you like
You and Me Both, please tell someone else about it.
And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you
waiting for? You can subscribe to You and Me Both
on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts. See you next week.
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