February 8, 2022 • 41 mins
If you’re a public figure (and even if you aren’t), it can be hard to try something new; some onlookers will always be quick to tell you to “stay in your lane.” Hillary’s experienced that, from working as a lawyer and advocate, to becoming First Lady, then running for office herself, serving as Senator and Secretary of State, and more recently writing a best-selling political thriller and becoming a podcast host!
On today’s episode, Hillary talks to two women who have dared to step outside the box we put them in, by switching gears in their lives and in their careers. World champion track and field runner Allyson Felix did that when she became an advocate for Black maternal health and better protections for women athletes. And actor, singer, author, and advocate Vanessa Williams has done it over and over again, ever since she was throned, and then dethroned, as Miss America back in 1983.
Bios:
Allyson Felix is the most decorated woman in Olympic track and field history. In 2018, after a life-threatening pregnancy, she became a vocal advocate on Black maternal health. In 2021, Felix launched Saysh, a lifestyle footwear company.
Vanessa Williams is a Grammy and Emmy Award winning and Tony Award nominated artist who’s released eight best-selling albums, appeared in dozens of films and TV shows, written two books, and released two clothing lines. She first emerged on the national stage in 1983, when she became the first Black woman to be crowned Miss America, but was then forced to resign after Penthouse magazine published risqué photos of her without her consent. In 2021, she helped found Black Theater United to push for greater equity, diversity and inclusion on Broadway.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.
You know, when you're well known for doing one thing,
it's not always easy to put yourself out there and
try something else. Stay in your lane, people tell you,
and yeah, look, I've heard that more than a few times.
(00:24):
Certainly when I was first lady working on healthcare, or
when I decided to run for the Senate myself. No
first lady had ever done that before. Even writing a
political thriller with my friend Louise Penny, or becoming a
podcast host. All of those things ruffled some feathers of
(00:44):
those who didn't think I was in the right lane. Well,
today I'm talking with two incredible women who did switch
gears and change lanes in their lives and careers. Later
we'll hear actor, singer, author, advocate and former Miss America
(01:04):
Vanessa Williams. But to start and rite in time for
the Winter Olympics, I'm talking to track and field superstar
Alison Felix. Last summer in Tokyo, Allison competed in her
fifth Olympic Games, where she won two medals, making her
the most decorated American track and field athlete in Olympic
(01:29):
history with nineteen medals total. She's also the most decorated
athlete regardless of gender in World Athletics championship history. Wow.
Allison announced that those Olympics were her last, but at
age thirty five, she is not slowing down. In addition
(01:51):
to her incredible athletic achievements, Allison also started Safe, a
woman's lifestyle sneaker company, and she wore the shoes when
she competed last summer. She's also switched gears to become
a vocal advocate for black maternal health and for women athletes.
After experiencing trauma with the birth of her daughter, Cammy,
(02:15):
who's now three. I was so delighted to have the
chance to speak with her for this podcast. Hi, Hi,
how are you? Oh? I'm great, And I gotta start
by saying, how is that adorable daughter of yours? He
is doing well. She is thriving, happy three year old,
(02:36):
running all over the place, keeping me super busy. Um
and yeah, life with her, it's going great. You know,
you've done so many amazing things. I want to go
back though, to the early days, because I read recently
that you didn't actually start running track until you were
in ninth grade, which you know it's really young, but
(02:58):
still you know, a little bit later than some. And
how did you get into it? What motivated you to
actually get out there and start to run? What kind
of kid were you? Well? I was a really active
kid in like my neighborhood and my community, and my
parents did an awesome job of keeping us really busy.
But it wasn't until high school that I actually found track.
(03:19):
And you're absolutely right as a as a runner and
for an Olympian, that is a later start. And I
kind of just stumbled into it, you know. I was
going to high school and so I was brand new
school and I didn't know anybody, and my family encouraged
me to go out for the track team. Um My
brother was at a different school and he was running
track and he was doing really well, and so they thought,
(03:41):
you know, might have some potential there. And so I
went out to meet friends and I did. I met
my best girlfriends that you know are still that to
this day. But I also found the sport and I
fell in love with it and I am like this,
this was my thing. You know, the thrill of competition
and you know, just having a sensible longing and it
taught me so many lessons and so I'm so grateful
(04:03):
that I did find it. You know, that word belonging
is one that I've been thinking a lot about. Everybody
has to have some place or people or passion that
they feel gives them that sense of belonging well. And
then two thousand three, Track and Field News named you
(04:25):
the high school Athlete of the Year. Yeah, what did
that feel like? You know, it was kind of surreal
because it was like I had just started running, you know,
a couple of years prior, and here things are happening quickly.
And I felt like it was a kind of a
turning point at that time because that's when I heard like, oh,
you know, the Olympics are the next year, and I
(04:48):
was like, is that a possibility for me? You know,
like it's I didn't realize that, you know, you could
go to the Olympics, you could make a career, you know,
out of being a runner. And so it was kind
of like a whole new world was open for me.
And who did you turn to for advice? So here
you are, Uh, You're getting named high school athlete of
the Year, and somebody says well, you know, the Olympics
are next year. How did you think that through? That's
(05:11):
such a big decision for a teenager, it is. It
was huge, and I'm so grateful because my parents, although
they didn't know anything about the sport um, they were
really committed to me and they were present. And I
always tell you know, parents who are involved with their
kids in sports, you know, the best way you can
support them is to show up. You know, you don't
have to be this super hard on your kids to
(05:33):
specialize and do all these things. But my parents, you know,
no matter if it was a really small meat or
a big one, they were there. So when it came
time to make a lot of decisions or think about
the future, they were the typical parents that really thought
things through, and we talked to people we knew, and
we tried to understand what was going on. But I
think the biggest thing was that I had that support system,
(05:55):
and I had them in my corner, you know, and
I could lean on them. And so you tried out
for the Olympics, you made the American team and mettled
in the two thousand for Olympics. Obviously, I'm talking to
you now when you are the most highly decorated metal
Olympic athlete and track and field ever. But what was
(06:15):
that first time like going to the Olympics. Oh my gosh,
everything was so new and exciting. I remember walking and
opening ceremonies, and I was meeting people that had idolized,
you know, growing up, and it just felt like a dream,
you know, and a bit overwhelming. But at the same time,
I think it lit a fire for me. It was like, Wow,
(06:36):
this is what the Olympics are about, and if I
really want to get to the next level and be
successful on the stage, it's going to require a lot
of dedication, a lot of sacrifice. We're taking a quick break.
Stay with us. You've also suffered setbacks in your career.
(07:04):
You know, in you you tore your hamstring. You couldn't
compete for I think it was like nine or ten months,
right and then right before the Summer Olympics you sprained
your ankle. But you still competed and you still want
two gold medals. By the way, what's it like for
a world class athlete to have an injury? What's it
(07:25):
feel like for you when you do something like tear
your hamstring? Yeah, it's really challenging, And I think the
hardest part is that you know what your body is
capable of doing. You know, this is a lifestyle, and
you train day in and day out for hours and hours,
and so when it feels like your body betrays you
and you try to do something that you used to
do and not give a second thought, it's really challenging,
(07:48):
you know, and then it takes you back to kind
of square one. You have to do all the tedious things.
You have to step away from the competition, and it's
when no one is kind of seeing what's going into it,
and no on is really cheering you on except your
your inner circle. So it really requires you to do
all the things and to take all the steps, and
so it's really challenging, especially at inopportune times. Before the Games,
(08:12):
I was trying to do something that very few people
have done and running the two hundred, running the four hundred,
and I felt like training was going amazing, and so
to have that setback right before it was time to
to get out there, it was it was really tough.
But I think, you know, you challenge yourself in new ways.
You know, it's about how can you pick up the
pieces when adversity hits and and what are you gonna
(08:34):
do with it? And sometimes I think it's more meaningful
to show people when it's not perfect and when it's
not pretty, you know how to get it done. Well.
You have done that, and you did it especially for
which I am incredibly grateful. Around your pregnancy, and first
(08:55):
of all, you had a really traumatic birth experience in
twenty nineteen when your daughter Cammy was born. You know,
I've been an advocate for maternal mortality, decreases, you better
birthing experiences, all of that, But it was a terrifying
time for you, wasn't it. Yeah. I first have to
just say thank you for all the work that you've
(09:16):
done on those areas. It's so important. It was terrifying
for me, you know, being an athlete, I think I
really took my health for granted. You know, I've always
been healthy and I've always known how to take care
of my body, and so when I became pregnant, I
didn't really give it too much thought. You know, I
kept training, I felt strong, I felt good, And it
(09:38):
was at thirty two weeks just going to a routine
doctor's appointment. Right away, it became very concerning I was
sent to the hospital for further monitoring, and it was
there that I was diagnosed with a severe case of preclampsia.
And never, in my wildest dreams what I think that
I would be at risk for a complicated pregnancy, or
that my life would be at risk or my child.
(10:00):
You know, I just didn't even comprehend that, and so
things started to spiral out of control and it got
really scary, and um, you know, as at risk of
having a stroke or losing my vision and all of
these things that it just didn't even make sense. I
had the birth plan of you know, I'm going to
have a natural, beautiful birth experience, and uh, nothing went
(10:22):
that way. I had an emergency C section, and you know,
I was in the hospital for quite a bit, and
my daughter spent a month in the nick. You and
it was just a really heavy time for us to
go through. You know, I'm so sorry that that you
had to go through that, and I'm incredibly thankful that
you came out healthy, your daughter came out healthy through
(10:44):
all of that trauma. But also during your pregnancy, you
tried not to let people know you were pregnant. I mean,
here you are an elite athlete, You're training, You're you're
still working hard every day. Um, what did that feel
like that you had to in effect hide your pregnancy.
It was the worst experience. I mean, you know, before
(11:07):
all of that traumatic birth experience happened. Yeah, I was
hiding my pregnancy. I was going through, you know, this
fight with Nike about maternal protections and contracts, and it
was just such a scary time because in sports, and
specifically track and field, there had been this culture of
silence around pregnancy and friends of mine, colleagues, they would
(11:29):
be pregnant and their contracts would either be paused or
they would be trying to secure a new contract and
you know, hide their pregnancy. And so that was kind
of my situation. I didn't have the offer on the table.
I knew what had happened in the past, and so
I was literally training four o'clock in the morning while
it was still dark. And it just breaks my heart. Yeah,
(11:50):
this time that should have been so happy and beautiful
was really lonely and isolating. And I look back on
it and it does bring me sadness to to know
that that was the situation. I mean, what an horrible,
outdated unfair caricature of pregnant women. I mean, it just
(12:12):
drives me crazy hearing about it, you know, these years later.
But you've said that before all this happened, that you know,
you avoided speaking out on issues that mattered you. Know,
you were an athlete. Your your accomplishments, your metals, your records,
they all spoke for you. And I totally get that.
And you also were really conscious of how you were perceived,
(12:34):
particularly in the world that gives you contracts, that supports you,
that you know, does what the whole athletic industrial complex does.
But after your pregnancy you started speaking out and your
letter to The New York Times, I read that, and
oh man, I thought that was so brave, so important,
(12:55):
so needed. In it, you talked about women athletes losing
money and contracts during pregnancy, and you also then spoke
out and even testified before Congress about the maternal health
disparities that impact Black women disproportionately. So can you talk
a little bit about how you decided to really use
(13:15):
your powerful voice to speak on things that you had
personal experience, but that you could then draw a larger
audience for. Yeah, it was such a journey to get
to that point. I mean absolutely what you said is
it's true. I was the athlete that was hyper focused
on performance. You know, I felt like my job is
to get medals, to break records, and I was such
(13:39):
a people pleaser, you know. I didn't want to rock
the boat and I just wanted to stay in my
lane and do what I did. And that worked for
a long time. And then I started to go through
these real life experiences and I started to really see
kind of what was happening behind the curtain and understand
that I was in a position that I had a
platform and I could speak out. And I think the
(14:01):
thing that really kind of shifted me to get to
that point was having my daughter. You know, I started
to think about, you know, the world that she is
going to grow up in, and here, you know, I
don't want her to have these same battles, you know,
that have been happening for so long. And I got
to a place where it was like, even if nothing happens,
(14:21):
you know, I just deeply believe that this is the
right thing to do and I have to speak out
on it, and you know, I want to make her proud.
And I also thinking about the other women you know,
so many women came before me who didn't have the
opportunity to speak out, and a lot of these situations
there's in d a s and that's why it's happened
for so long. And here I had the opportunity to really,
(14:43):
you know, come forward and say this is what's happening.
And so um, yeah, it took a long time, but
grateful that I got to a place where I could
get outside of my comfort zone and speak up. Well,
thank goodness you did. And I totally get what happens
to you when you have a child and in my
case now three grandchildren, and you really do think about
the world you want them to grow up in and
(15:04):
what they'll inherit. And it seems almost you know, preordained
in some way that you know, you and Serena Williams
would both have had these really traumatic birth experiences because
so many black women have had similar experiences. Some did
not survive, some did not see their baby survive. And
(15:24):
I was really pleased to see Vice President Harris take
this on as an issue, and you know, members of
Congress past start passing laws you testified on behalf of
you know, better attention, better resources. This should not be
and thank you for being the advocate that you are.
And part of what you did to keep going further
than you'd ever gone before was to found your own
(15:48):
women's shoe company as as very explicitly an alternative to
the male oriented sneaker companies that drive the sports world.
So tell me about that. You know, where'd you find name?
You know, why do you think we need our own
shoe company? Yeah? So it actually happened very organically. You know,
I was looking for a footwear sponsor. I had Athleta
(16:11):
as a apparel sponsor, and I was very empowered by
the way they did business, you know, their female lead,
their mission, you know everything. And I was like, wow,
if I could find this in footwear, that would be amazing.
And started to search and I realized that here's another
area where women are an afterthought and shoes aren't made
for women. Um. And so I was talking with my
(16:34):
brother and I was basically venting to him about like, wow,
I've been to four Olympics and I don't have shoes
to wear in the Olympics, Like this is so frustrating.
And he looked at me and he was like, well,
what if we did this ourselves? And I was like,
that sounds so big, But the more I sat with it,
I was like, Wow, instead of asking for change, here's
(16:55):
an opportunity to be that change. And so we found
in Sage, which is a lifestyle brand for women, and
our first product is a lifestyle sneaker. And one of
my proudest moments was being able to compete in the
Olympics wearing my own brand, you know, shoes made by
my company, and it was incredible. Um. The name comes
(17:16):
from the French word seschet to move back and forth,
but we use it in the context of the wave.
It's a the safe wave is found in enclosed bodies
of water and atmospheric pressure pushes that water to one side,
and it's the safe wave that restores balance. And so
we're looking to bring balance into the marketplace. You know,
these are shoes designed and engineered by women for women.
(17:40):
The female foot is actually has differences than a man's foot,
and so we think that, you know, we should be
a priority. So that's what we're doing. And we exist
to see women and too no women and so that
women will never feel how I felt when I was
training at four o'clock in the morning, So that nobody
would know that I was pregnant. Sou just really cited
about it and looking forward to serving women. Oh I
(18:04):
love that story and I love the name Sage. That
really has a great feel to it. And now that
you told us all what it means, thank you. Well.
Once again, you broke several Olympic records this past summer
in Tokyo, becoming the most decorated female trek and field
athlete in Olympic history, all the way back to the Greeks,
(18:27):
which didn't even allow women. It's just so extraordinary. How
did this Olympic competition feel for you? There? You were
wearing your own safe shoes, a mom, competing at the
highest levels possible. What was that like compared to past
games you were in? Yeah, oh my gosh, it felt
(18:47):
so good. And it was much bigger than the race.
You know, I went and I felt like I was
a representation for women and for mothers and for anyone
who was told that, you know, their best days were
behind them. And that just gave me an added motivation.
You know. I usually I am so stress about every
(19:07):
little thing and every performance competition thing, and this time
it was so free because I had heard from so
many women, connected with so many people who just told
me to get out there and enjoy myself and that
they were proud of me. And it was like a
weight was lifted off of my shoulders. And so I
think it's the first time I felt so fulfilled, you know,
I crossed the line. It was like, wow, I was
(19:30):
told that this couldn't be done. And how many of
us are told that, you know, like we we all
we all can relate to that. And so it was
so special to you know, to cross that line and
in the shoes, and to know that my daughter was
watching and that she has been on this journey and
I can't wait to really, you know, tell her what
it has been like and that she has also been
(19:52):
that motivation to keep going. Oh my gosh. Well you
also decided, uh and announced that this would be your
last time competing at the Olympics. Was that a tough
decision to make? Where you conflicted about it? It was
mixed emotions, you know, I knew it was probably time,
you know, on the Olympic stage. I I had such
(20:13):
a beautiful journey, you know, five Olympic Games, and but
I wasn't sure how it was going to feel I
felt like I had no regrets. You know, I remember
stepping on the track for that last race and just
feeling a lot of joy. Ah. That is uh, you know,
beautifully said. And I don't think you will ever slow down.
I think you'll just change direction and take on new challenges.
(20:37):
Thinking about developing any new hobbies or taking up something else.
I don't know, are you. You know? The one thing
I'm really looking forward to doing that I haven't been
able to do is skiing. It's like the one thing
every time we go out for the holidays, you know,
I'm always the one at the bottom of the hill
waiting for everybody. So I think that's one little hobby
that I hope to take up. It's a great sport
(20:59):
by no means a great or even a mediocre skier,
but I loved and you know, I hope you will
take it up and enjoy that. One of those small
things that's kind of been on my list that it's like, oh,
now I can actually do that. Of course, knowing you,
I'll probably see you in the Winter Olympics in eight years.
I mean, I'm not going to cut it out. I
think we're safe there. Well, Allison, I cannot tell you
(21:23):
how much I have enjoyed watching you as a great
fan and admirer. Watching you in the Olympics and to
see you become a mom and stand up for other
mothers and stand up for yourself and stand up for
what's right has been absolutely a joy. And uh, I
just wish you the very best whatever direction you decide
(21:45):
to go, I pill downhill wherever you end down. Well,
thank you so much. It's been so nice to talk
with you, and I just appreciate everything that you've done
in the inspiration that you've been to me and to
my daughter as well. To keep track of Alison Felix's
next moves, you can follow her on Twitter. Now. Maybe
(22:09):
you know Vanessa Williams as the chart topping singer of
hits like Save the Best for Last, or maybe for
her Emmy nominated role on the hit TV show Ugly Betty,
or for one of her many starring roles on Broadway.
I mean, seriously, Vanessa has been nominated for or one
(22:30):
nearly every award there is, and she's worked in every
facet of the entertainment industry, in addition to having her
own fashion line and becoming a best selling author. And advocate.
I'm fortunate to know Vanessa not just as a fan,
but as a neighbor since she grew up and her
(22:51):
mother still lives in Chappaqua, New York. The thing that
first brought Vanessa Williams to national attention was her barrier
breaking crowning as the first black woman to be Miss
America back in nineteen three. Soon after, she was forced
to resign when Penthouse Magazine published risque photos of her
(23:12):
without her consent. But boy did she make a comeback.
You know, I am so happy to have you on
this show. Vanessa and Chelsea and I did the very
last event in promoting our book of Gutsy Women with
you as the moderator at Pace University on a very
snowy winter night in December of twenty nineteen. And it
(23:36):
was one of the very last things that I did,
and I think you did before the world shut down. Right. Absolutely,
we had a wonderful turnout. Of course, your book is
amazing and so inspirational. And then uh we started twenty
I went off to London what I has told you,
I was going to start in City of Angels at
the Garrick Theater. We went into rehearsal, and then we
(23:57):
were in previews and then slowly people's arted calling and
saying I'm sick, I canceled my flight, or oh, I'm
nervous about coming because people are starting to get sick
around me. And then Broadway closed that March twelve, and
we closed the following Monday that the March, and then
all theaters shut down for a while. So it was hard.
(24:19):
It was hard. So how are you now? How have
you gotten through this pandemic time that we've all been
living through since then? Well, I was one of the
lucky ones. You know. For instance, Renee Fleming, brilliant soprano.
As a friend of mine, we started doing all these
Zoom cocktail hours, which everybody did, and while we're sipping
(24:40):
our wine, we're like, you know, we should do something together.
Let's do it live from our living rooms. And then
we started thinking about programs and shows, and then I
was like, well, why don't we do it actually in
a venue and do it socially distance And we end
up doing a show at the Kennedy Center, something that
we came up with a zoom and then you know,
(25:00):
I did a Elephantzgerald Christmas Swinging Christmas thing that we
did outside. I did a live from the West Side,
a Broadway thing that we did, you know, socially distanced streaming,
so you kind of change the game. And and I
still got a chance to sing from my piano, you know,
in the next room. And you made it work, so
I didn't really lose much at all, and I had
(25:22):
the convenience of doing most of my performing in my
own house. I love that. I love that, you know,
let's make it happen attitude. You also had that, and
that's exactly, you know, one of the reasons why I
admire you so much. You know, when I think about
your early career, it really was very much focused in
(25:42):
this place where we both live. And your parents were
both music teachers, right, and you came from a musical family.
You had the talent and the drive and the interest
to do it yourself. And as you know everybody knows,
you became the first black woman who was crowned Miss American.
I remember watching that. I remember seeing you long before
(26:05):
I knew I would live in your town. And god,
you are, I mean, you are just so magnetic. And
then you waged one of the great comebacks in entertainment history,
and you're such a role model for not only women
of color, but you know, young women and not so
young women. Uh. You know, just recently, I released a
master class about resilience, so you know, talk a little
(26:30):
bit about what you have inside of you that keeps
you up and going. Well, thank you for um that
observation and also being compared and in the same group
as you, because resilience is one of those things that
I don't know whether the fire in the belly is
what you're just born with, but I have it and
(26:50):
I know you have it. And we both had very
strong mothers that I do believe that I always wanted
to please, which is still she's still eighty two and
I'm still trying to fleeze her, which you know, it
informs a lot. I mean, I look back at my
marriages and like, you didn't like this person, Well guess what,
I'm gonna marry him anyway. And I mean, like a
(27:11):
lot of my choices, a lot of mother isches. But
we did write a book together and kind of wanted
to mention that. I mean, it has one of the
great titles of any mother daughter memoir. You have no
idea a famous daughter, her no nonsense mother and how
they survived pageants, Hollywood, love loss, and each other. Yes,
(27:35):
so you know, I think it gets passed down that
my mother is super very resilient and just fought her
way to the top of what she wanted to do.
And well, she was born in Buffalo, you know, raising
a very segregated place, and just fought to prove herself
time and time again. So I think that watching her journey,
(27:58):
seeing her resilience definitely was I would say the footprint
for my ease at being able to always kind of
trigger what I think comes naturally within my my bones.
But also as I've grown, and you know, at fifty
eight years old, I have way more wisdom. I realized
that you're always going to be judged no matter you
(28:21):
know from high school too, you're always going to be judged,
and they don't know who you are, they don't know
what you're thinking, they don't know what you're feeling. So
just leave that judgment at the door and believe in
yourself and know that, okay, you know what, they'll eventually
know who I am. I don't get a chance to
show them, and it's, you know, one of those things
(28:42):
that I've just kind of used as my template to
survive and to not give a dam. Really, yeah, you know,
everybody's judged, but look, it's harder for women. There is
still this you know, blatant double standard as somebody in
the public eye. You know, you do getticism, and you
know you can learn something. Sometimes your critics will tell
(29:03):
you things your friends you know won't. But you can't
let it pull you down and keep you down and
make you doubt yourself and lose your confidence in yourself.
And that's what I try to tell young people, particularly
young women, all the time. I said, get used to it.
You're gonna get criticized. It doesn't matter how hard you
try and how good you do. You're gonna get criticized.
(29:23):
Isn't that right? Absolutely? And also I mean what I
tell young younger women, I say, you know, do the work.
You'll get hired when people know that you show up
in your professional and you can handle stress, you can
solve problems. You're not incapable of of getting yourself out
of a situation or managing a situation. Right, that's what
your employer is gonna want to see, and that's what
(29:45):
makes you a good team player, a good actor that
they're going to bring onto an ensemble, that they know
that you can handle it and be able to to
be professional. You know, I've I've I've got four kids,
and that's what I always try to say. Show up
on time, do your best, and you'll always continue need
to get hired. Yeah, do the work right, We'll be
(30:06):
right back. I've always wanted to ask somebody who's in
the spotlight as you are, how do you memorize all
your lines? Do you have a trick? I do have
a trick. So most of the time people will look
(30:29):
at a page and think that they're gonna they do
it by road and go over and over and over again,
and as as soon as they stand up, they can't
remember a thing. So you have to make your muscle
memory work. So I do all myself on the treadmill,
So I'll say it out loud while I'm walking on
the treadmill, so when I'm in the scene and I'm walking,
(30:50):
I still have it connected to my body. So that's
one aspect. And then I also write out everything in scripts,
so I'm actually again physically writing out the words that
I'm speaking, and and just it's it's repetition, it really is. Yeah,
but I love this idea of doing it on the treadmill.
Another reason why I should get on the treadmill. Okay,
(31:12):
I am being I am being, you know, encouraged and
a little bit shamed, to be honest. You know, my
my daughter ran the marathon, the New York City Marathon, uh,
this past November, and I think all that athletic DNA
skipped a generation, you know, if it just went right
to her. You know. The other thing I just heard
(31:32):
is that you've got a really fun new role. You
switched gears again to become a judge on a drag
queen singing competition called Queen of the Universe. What's that
been like? It was amazing. We we shot it in London.
It is a global singing competition for drag queens, which
(31:53):
is always fun. Give me more sparkle, give me more glitter,
give me more sequence and uh. These queens competed from India,
you know, Brazil, China, France, the UK of course, the
United States, Mexico, Netherlands, all over the globe. And the
cash prize was two d fifty thousand dollars, which is amazing.
(32:15):
That's a lot of money for contest on TV and
they have to sing live. That was a big thing.
No lip sinking. They are singing live. You know that's good.
I mean the lip sinking, you know. Yeah, okay, that's fine,
but really for these contests, people should sing live. I'm
so happy you're doing that. Yeah, yeah, it was a
lot of fun. You know, you've been incredible in the
(32:36):
range of your roles your activities. Obviously you are a singer,
as we all know, but also an actor, a fashion designer,
a writer, an advocate. How have you switched between these,
you know, various talents and these roles that you've had.
I mean, I loved you in Ugly Betty, by the
way I loved you. I mean I don't know, I
(32:59):
loved and hated you, but I basically loved you. And
so how what would you advise somebody who had, you know,
a variety of interests and talents, because they do have
to do the work, But how do they know what
area to do the work in and how to build
a career or how can they follow your example and
be so versatile well, be open to um taking challenges
(33:20):
and risks. A lot of things that I never thought
I was going to be able to do came to
me because of doing something else. Uh. So you know, yes,
have a plan, yes, you know, have an outline of
what you think you want to do in life, but
then be open to the opportunities that you're not even
aware of that will come. I'm at this age now
or midlife. Have I made enough impact in my life?
(33:43):
What am I going to do? And the advocacy portion
of it really kind of fell in my lap. I
would say my biggest role as of yet as as
a founder of Black Theaty United, which happened um last
year after the George Floyd murder and all of my
friends from me Scoll Theater that we've been in shows
with for over thirty years. Augia McDonald called me, Lashawn's
(34:05):
called me, Norm Lewis, Brian Stokes, Mitchell. We were so
stunned and so enraged. We said, what are we gonna do?
We've got to do something. So we've been able to
not only um have amazing platforms where hopefully we'll have you,
be able to have you. Uh, but we've done town halls.
We have a new deal for Broadway which is about
(34:26):
e d I A b um and making sure that
there is inclusion and equity within commercial theaters, and that
advocacy part of my life, that real active boots on
the ground. Starting a foundation just recently happened and I
couldn't be prouder. And we're doing all the work, but
(34:46):
it's it's a lot, but it means something. It's meaningful,
and I'm happy to be a founding member of something
that will be a legacy and I can pass on
to my children, my grandchildren. You mentioned E D I
B D I A b SO equity, diverse city, inclusion,
accessibility and belonging. Oh, I love that. And we held
seminars with theater owners, producers, directors, casting directors, union people,
(35:13):
so people in front of the stage, behind the stage,
owning this stage, about how there has been damaged, how
you might not even be aware of the power of
diversity in the dollars and marketing UH and allowing everybody
to have a chance. The quote that I love is
diversity is a fact. Inclusion is a choice, So make
(35:35):
the choice to include us. That's really great. And you know,
when I think about the pandemic and how disruptive and
difficult it's been, I also think that a lot of
people found these kind of silver linings. You all are
such busy people, and so it's almost hard to believe
that you could have from your various you know, vantage
points and everything you were doing, found the time and
(35:57):
the energy to build this, except for the stomach when
everything was closed. But what a blessing that you did. Absolutely,
As as we discussed a little bit earlier, you know,
we both have had big public you know, moments that
we wished we hadn't had. You know, some people when
they go through things that are difficult, they get hyper cautious,
(36:19):
they get really defensive, they kind of shut down. How
how do you think about navigating life in the public eye.
You've been in it a really long time. I've been
in a really long time. It never gets easier, but
you get better at it, don't you exactly? Um, and
I certainly was very defensive for a long long time.
I mean I became famous at twenty years old, so um,
(36:42):
you know, uh, it really took me a long time
to say, yes I'm talented, Yes I'm smart, don't put
the beauty queen have that negate anything that is really me.
So I battled that for years and uh it was
probably once I got more success. My my career has
always been I didn't know she could do that. Really,
(37:03):
I didn't know she did. And every accomplishment I've been
undervalued and underestimated, and every time I've had an accomplishment, oh,
I didn't know if she could do that. So that
gave that gave me the thrill. It's like, okay, you
know what, just cut me out and I'm gonna come
in and surprise you all. So you know, it's like
with me, oh my gosh, oh wow, okay, And and
(37:25):
it's it's and people are always trying to fit you
into the box they've created, and it does get tiresome.
I mean, do you feel, as such a successful artist
in so many ways, do you feel like it's better
not just for you because you've proven yourself over and
over again, but for you know, young women coming behind.
(37:45):
Well for me personally, I finally reconciled and instead of
saying no, no, no, no no, I've said yes. I
was Miss America. So the pageant thing, because I was
I didn't want to be involved with anything with a
crown and pageant all the kind of stuff. So that
has taken me a while too. When people say you'll
always be my queen, I would roll my eyes, like
(38:06):
here we go again. And and now I think, Okay,
I remember when I was twenty years old and black
women would come up to me who are elderly and say,
I never thought i'd see it in my lifetime and weep.
I mean, when you are the first, that's so important
to so many people. So I've embraced that now as
opposed to saying oh, it didn't matter or oh please
(38:28):
don't bring it up, which has helped me just like, Okay,
that's my history, and that's let me accept it instead
of trying to fight it all the time. So that's
taken a lot of angst and defensiveness away. But for
women again, it's it's about the judgment and being put
in a box. And I mean you have to just
use that fuel for your fire and just say I'm
(38:50):
gonna I'm gonna prove to you, okay, got me out,
guess what I'm coming for you and and and prove it. Yeah. Well,
you can't change the past, and at some point, even
if other people can't get on and move from it,
you have to what is it that you're now fired
up about? Doing. I mean, do you have some plans
that you're looking forward to, some activities that get you
(39:12):
up in the morning. Oh, there's always something that comes
my way. Uh. I'm really excited about a Broadway project
that has a lot to do with the White House.
As soon as I have signed on. As soon as
we get a theater, I will call you immediately because
you will die. You will be there helping night. I
guarantee you. I will give you seats and you will
(39:34):
love it. It's a comedy, it's hilarious and you will
get everything and I will play the first lady. So
I'll have to call you for some tips. But it
is really funny. I am more than happy to be,
you know, a consultant and do whatever I can for you.
I cannot tell you how much I always enjoy you.
(39:55):
Always put a smile on my face. Vanessa. I just
want to wish you and your one her full family
all the best going forward. Thank you so much, and
it's always an honor to talk to you. And I'm
always amazed at what your next stage in life is,
which is always amazing. So thanks so much. Well, I
(40:17):
don't know about you, but I can't wait for this
mysterious play that Vanessa Williams told us is in the works.
You and Me Both is brought to you by I
Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and
(40:40):
Rob Russo, with help from Juma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman,
Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow, and Banita Zaman.
Our engineer is Zack McNeice and the original music is
by Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both,
(41:01):
please tell someone else about it. And if you're not
already a subscriber, what are you waiting for? You can
subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week.
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.
You know, when you're well known for doing one thing,
it's not always easy to put yourself out there and
try something else. Stay in your lane, people tell you,
and yeah, look, I've heard that more than a few times.
(00:24):
Certainly when I was first lady working on healthcare, or
when I decided to run for the Senate myself. No
first lady had ever done that before. Even writing a
political thriller with my friend Louise Penny, or becoming a
podcast host. All of those things ruffled some feathers of
(00:44):
those who didn't think I was in the right lane. Well,
today I'm talking with two incredible women who did switch
gears and change lanes in their lives and careers. Later
we'll hear actor, singer, author, advocate and former Miss America
(01:04):
Vanessa Williams. But to start and rite in time for
the Winter Olympics, I'm talking to track and field superstar
Alison Felix. Last summer in Tokyo, Allison competed in her
fifth Olympic Games, where she won two medals, making her
the most decorated American track and field athlete in Olympic
(01:29):
history with nineteen medals total. She's also the most decorated
athlete regardless of gender in World Athletics championship history. Wow.
Allison announced that those Olympics were her last, but at
age thirty five, she is not slowing down. In addition
(01:51):
to her incredible athletic achievements, Allison also started Safe, a
woman's lifestyle sneaker company, and she wore the shoes when
she competed last summer. She's also switched gears to become
a vocal advocate for black maternal health and for women athletes.
After experiencing trauma with the birth of her daughter, Cammy,
(02:15):
who's now three. I was so delighted to have the
chance to speak with her for this podcast. Hi, Hi,
how are you? Oh? I'm great, And I gotta start
by saying, how is that adorable daughter of yours? He
is doing well. She is thriving, happy three year old,
(02:36):
running all over the place, keeping me super busy. Um
and yeah, life with her, it's going great. You know,
you've done so many amazing things. I want to go
back though, to the early days, because I read recently
that you didn't actually start running track until you were
in ninth grade, which you know it's really young, but
(02:58):
still you know, a little bit later than some. And
how did you get into it? What motivated you to
actually get out there and start to run? What kind
of kid were you? Well? I was a really active
kid in like my neighborhood and my community, and my
parents did an awesome job of keeping us really busy.
But it wasn't until high school that I actually found track.
(03:19):
And you're absolutely right as a as a runner and
for an Olympian, that is a later start. And I
kind of just stumbled into it, you know. I was
going to high school and so I was brand new
school and I didn't know anybody, and my family encouraged
me to go out for the track team. Um My
brother was at a different school and he was running
track and he was doing really well, and so they thought,
(03:41):
you know, might have some potential there. And so I
went out to meet friends and I did. I met
my best girlfriends that you know are still that to
this day. But I also found the sport and I
fell in love with it and I am like this,
this was my thing. You know, the thrill of competition
and you know, just having a sensible longing and it
taught me so many lessons and so I'm so grateful
(04:03):
that I did find it. You know, that word belonging
is one that I've been thinking a lot about. Everybody
has to have some place or people or passion that
they feel gives them that sense of belonging well. And
then two thousand three, Track and Field News named you
(04:25):
the high school Athlete of the Year. Yeah, what did
that feel like? You know, it was kind of surreal
because it was like I had just started running, you know,
a couple of years prior, and here things are happening quickly.
And I felt like it was a kind of a
turning point at that time because that's when I heard like, oh,
you know, the Olympics are the next year, and I
(04:48):
was like, is that a possibility for me? You know,
like it's I didn't realize that, you know, you could
go to the Olympics, you could make a career, you know,
out of being a runner. And so it was kind
of like a whole new world was open for me.
And who did you turn to for advice? So here
you are, Uh, You're getting named high school athlete of
the Year, and somebody says well, you know, the Olympics
are next year. How did you think that through? That's
(05:11):
such a big decision for a teenager, it is. It
was huge, and I'm so grateful because my parents, although
they didn't know anything about the sport um, they were
really committed to me and they were present. And I
always tell you know, parents who are involved with their
kids in sports, you know, the best way you can
support them is to show up. You know, you don't
have to be this super hard on your kids to
(05:33):
specialize and do all these things. But my parents, you know,
no matter if it was a really small meat or
a big one, they were there. So when it came
time to make a lot of decisions or think about
the future, they were the typical parents that really thought
things through, and we talked to people we knew, and
we tried to understand what was going on. But I
think the biggest thing was that I had that support system,
(05:55):
and I had them in my corner, you know, and
I could lean on them. And so you tried out
for the Olympics, you made the American team and mettled
in the two thousand for Olympics. Obviously, I'm talking to
you now when you are the most highly decorated metal
Olympic athlete and track and field ever. But what was
(06:15):
that first time like going to the Olympics. Oh my gosh,
everything was so new and exciting. I remember walking and
opening ceremonies, and I was meeting people that had idolized,
you know, growing up, and it just felt like a dream,
you know, and a bit overwhelming. But at the same time,
I think it lit a fire for me. It was like, Wow,
(06:36):
this is what the Olympics are about, and if I
really want to get to the next level and be
successful on the stage, it's going to require a lot
of dedication, a lot of sacrifice. We're taking a quick break.
Stay with us. You've also suffered setbacks in your career.
(07:04):
You know, in you you tore your hamstring. You couldn't
compete for I think it was like nine or ten months,
right and then right before the Summer Olympics you sprained
your ankle. But you still competed and you still want
two gold medals. By the way, what's it like for
a world class athlete to have an injury? What's it
(07:25):
feel like for you when you do something like tear
your hamstring? Yeah, it's really challenging, And I think the
hardest part is that you know what your body is
capable of doing. You know, this is a lifestyle, and
you train day in and day out for hours and hours,
and so when it feels like your body betrays you
and you try to do something that you used to
do and not give a second thought, it's really challenging,
(07:48):
you know, and then it takes you back to kind
of square one. You have to do all the tedious things.
You have to step away from the competition, and it's
when no one is kind of seeing what's going into it,
and no on is really cheering you on except your
your inner circle. So it really requires you to do
all the things and to take all the steps, and
so it's really challenging, especially at inopportune times. Before the Games,
(08:12):
I was trying to do something that very few people
have done and running the two hundred, running the four hundred,
and I felt like training was going amazing, and so
to have that setback right before it was time to
to get out there, it was it was really tough.
But I think, you know, you challenge yourself in new ways.
You know, it's about how can you pick up the
pieces when adversity hits and and what are you gonna
(08:34):
do with it? And sometimes I think it's more meaningful
to show people when it's not perfect and when it's
not pretty, you know how to get it done. Well.
You have done that, and you did it especially for
which I am incredibly grateful. Around your pregnancy, and first
(08:55):
of all, you had a really traumatic birth experience in
twenty nineteen when your daughter Cammy was born. You know,
I've been an advocate for maternal mortality, decreases, you better
birthing experiences, all of that, But it was a terrifying
time for you, wasn't it. Yeah. I first have to
just say thank you for all the work that you've
(09:16):
done on those areas. It's so important. It was terrifying
for me, you know, being an athlete, I think I
really took my health for granted. You know, I've always
been healthy and I've always known how to take care
of my body, and so when I became pregnant, I
didn't really give it too much thought. You know, I
kept training, I felt strong, I felt good, And it
(09:38):
was at thirty two weeks just going to a routine
doctor's appointment. Right away, it became very concerning I was
sent to the hospital for further monitoring, and it was
there that I was diagnosed with a severe case of preclampsia.
And never, in my wildest dreams what I think that
I would be at risk for a complicated pregnancy, or
that my life would be at risk or my child.
(10:00):
You know, I just didn't even comprehend that, and so
things started to spiral out of control and it got
really scary, and um, you know, as at risk of
having a stroke or losing my vision and all of
these things that it just didn't even make sense. I
had the birth plan of you know, I'm going to
have a natural, beautiful birth experience, and uh, nothing went
(10:22):
that way. I had an emergency C section, and you know,
I was in the hospital for quite a bit, and
my daughter spent a month in the nick. You and
it was just a really heavy time for us to
go through. You know, I'm so sorry that that you
had to go through that, and I'm incredibly thankful that
you came out healthy, your daughter came out healthy through
(10:44):
all of that trauma. But also during your pregnancy, you
tried not to let people know you were pregnant. I mean,
here you are an elite athlete, You're training, You're you're
still working hard every day. Um, what did that feel
like that you had to in effect hide your pregnancy.
It was the worst experience. I mean, you know, before
(11:07):
all of that traumatic birth experience happened. Yeah, I was
hiding my pregnancy. I was going through, you know, this
fight with Nike about maternal protections and contracts, and it
was just such a scary time because in sports, and
specifically track and field, there had been this culture of
silence around pregnancy and friends of mine, colleagues, they would
(11:29):
be pregnant and their contracts would either be paused or
they would be trying to secure a new contract and
you know, hide their pregnancy. And so that was kind
of my situation. I didn't have the offer on the table.
I knew what had happened in the past, and so
I was literally training four o'clock in the morning while
it was still dark. And it just breaks my heart. Yeah,
(11:50):
this time that should have been so happy and beautiful
was really lonely and isolating. And I look back on
it and it does bring me sadness to to know
that that was the situation. I mean, what an horrible,
outdated unfair caricature of pregnant women. I mean, it just
(12:12):
drives me crazy hearing about it, you know, these years later.
But you've said that before all this happened, that you know,
you avoided speaking out on issues that mattered you. Know,
you were an athlete. Your your accomplishments, your metals, your records,
they all spoke for you. And I totally get that.
And you also were really conscious of how you were perceived,
(12:34):
particularly in the world that gives you contracts, that supports you,
that you know, does what the whole athletic industrial complex does.
But after your pregnancy you started speaking out and your
letter to The New York Times, I read that, and
oh man, I thought that was so brave, so important,
(12:55):
so needed. In it, you talked about women athletes losing
money and contracts during pregnancy, and you also then spoke
out and even testified before Congress about the maternal health
disparities that impact Black women disproportionately. So can you talk
a little bit about how you decided to really use
(13:15):
your powerful voice to speak on things that you had
personal experience, but that you could then draw a larger
audience for. Yeah, it was such a journey to get
to that point. I mean absolutely what you said is
it's true. I was the athlete that was hyper focused
on performance. You know, I felt like my job is
to get medals, to break records, and I was such
(13:39):
a people pleaser, you know. I didn't want to rock
the boat and I just wanted to stay in my
lane and do what I did. And that worked for
a long time. And then I started to go through
these real life experiences and I started to really see
kind of what was happening behind the curtain and understand
that I was in a position that I had a
platform and I could speak out. And I think the
(14:01):
thing that really kind of shifted me to get to
that point was having my daughter. You know, I started
to think about, you know, the world that she is
going to grow up in, and here, you know, I
don't want her to have these same battles, you know,
that have been happening for so long. And I got
to a place where it was like, even if nothing happens,
(14:21):
you know, I just deeply believe that this is the
right thing to do and I have to speak out
on it, and you know, I want to make her proud.
And I also thinking about the other women you know,
so many women came before me who didn't have the
opportunity to speak out, and a lot of these situations
there's in d a s and that's why it's happened
for so long. And here I had the opportunity to really,
(14:43):
you know, come forward and say this is what's happening.
And so um, yeah, it took a long time, but
grateful that I got to a place where I could
get outside of my comfort zone and speak up. Well,
thank goodness you did. And I totally get what happens
to you when you have a child and in my
case now three grandchildren, and you really do think about
the world you want them to grow up in and
(15:04):
what they'll inherit. And it seems almost you know, preordained
in some way that you know, you and Serena Williams
would both have had these really traumatic birth experiences because
so many black women have had similar experiences. Some did
not survive, some did not see their baby survive. And
(15:24):
I was really pleased to see Vice President Harris take
this on as an issue, and you know, members of
Congress past start passing laws you testified on behalf of
you know, better attention, better resources. This should not be
and thank you for being the advocate that you are.
And part of what you did to keep going further
than you'd ever gone before was to found your own
(15:48):
women's shoe company as as very explicitly an alternative to
the male oriented sneaker companies that drive the sports world.
So tell me about that. You know, where'd you find name?
You know, why do you think we need our own
shoe company? Yeah? So it actually happened very organically. You know,
I was looking for a footwear sponsor. I had Athleta
(16:11):
as a apparel sponsor, and I was very empowered by
the way they did business, you know, their female lead,
their mission, you know everything. And I was like, wow,
if I could find this in footwear, that would be amazing.
And started to search and I realized that here's another
area where women are an afterthought and shoes aren't made
for women. Um. And so I was talking with my
(16:34):
brother and I was basically venting to him about like, wow,
I've been to four Olympics and I don't have shoes
to wear in the Olympics, Like this is so frustrating.
And he looked at me and he was like, well,
what if we did this ourselves? And I was like,
that sounds so big, But the more I sat with it,
I was like, Wow, instead of asking for change, here's
(16:55):
an opportunity to be that change. And so we found
in Sage, which is a lifestyle brand for women, and
our first product is a lifestyle sneaker. And one of
my proudest moments was being able to compete in the
Olympics wearing my own brand, you know, shoes made by
my company, and it was incredible. Um. The name comes
(17:16):
from the French word seschet to move back and forth,
but we use it in the context of the wave.
It's a the safe wave is found in enclosed bodies
of water and atmospheric pressure pushes that water to one side,
and it's the safe wave that restores balance. And so
we're looking to bring balance into the marketplace. You know,
these are shoes designed and engineered by women for women.
(17:40):
The female foot is actually has differences than a man's foot,
and so we think that, you know, we should be
a priority. So that's what we're doing. And we exist
to see women and too no women and so that
women will never feel how I felt when I was
training at four o'clock in the morning, So that nobody
would know that I was pregnant. Sou just really cited
about it and looking forward to serving women. Oh I
(18:04):
love that story and I love the name Sage. That
really has a great feel to it. And now that
you told us all what it means, thank you. Well.
Once again, you broke several Olympic records this past summer
in Tokyo, becoming the most decorated female trek and field
athlete in Olympic history, all the way back to the Greeks,
(18:27):
which didn't even allow women. It's just so extraordinary. How
did this Olympic competition feel for you? There? You were
wearing your own safe shoes, a mom, competing at the
highest levels possible. What was that like compared to past
games you were in? Yeah, oh my gosh, it felt
(18:47):
so good. And it was much bigger than the race.
You know, I went and I felt like I was
a representation for women and for mothers and for anyone
who was told that, you know, their best days were
behind them. And that just gave me an added motivation.
You know. I usually I am so stress about every
(19:07):
little thing and every performance competition thing, and this time
it was so free because I had heard from so
many women, connected with so many people who just told
me to get out there and enjoy myself and that
they were proud of me. And it was like a
weight was lifted off of my shoulders. And so I
think it's the first time I felt so fulfilled, you know,
I crossed the line. It was like, wow, I was
(19:30):
told that this couldn't be done. And how many of
us are told that, you know, like we we all
we all can relate to that. And so it was
so special to you know, to cross that line and
in the shoes, and to know that my daughter was
watching and that she has been on this journey and
I can't wait to really, you know, tell her what
it has been like and that she has also been
(19:52):
that motivation to keep going. Oh my gosh. Well you
also decided, uh and announced that this would be your
last time competing at the Olympics. Was that a tough
decision to make? Where you conflicted about it? It was
mixed emotions, you know, I knew it was probably time,
you know, on the Olympic stage. I I had such
(20:13):
a beautiful journey, you know, five Olympic Games, and but
I wasn't sure how it was going to feel I
felt like I had no regrets. You know, I remember
stepping on the track for that last race and just
feeling a lot of joy. Ah. That is uh, you know,
beautifully said. And I don't think you will ever slow down.
I think you'll just change direction and take on new challenges.
(20:37):
Thinking about developing any new hobbies or taking up something else.
I don't know, are you. You know? The one thing
I'm really looking forward to doing that I haven't been
able to do is skiing. It's like the one thing
every time we go out for the holidays, you know,
I'm always the one at the bottom of the hill
waiting for everybody. So I think that's one little hobby
that I hope to take up. It's a great sport
(20:59):
by no means a great or even a mediocre skier,
but I loved and you know, I hope you will
take it up and enjoy that. One of those small
things that's kind of been on my list that it's like, oh,
now I can actually do that. Of course, knowing you,
I'll probably see you in the Winter Olympics in eight years.
I mean, I'm not going to cut it out. I
think we're safe there. Well, Allison, I cannot tell you
(21:23):
how much I have enjoyed watching you as a great
fan and admirer. Watching you in the Olympics and to
see you become a mom and stand up for other
mothers and stand up for yourself and stand up for
what's right has been absolutely a joy. And uh, I
just wish you the very best whatever direction you decide
(21:45):
to go, I pill downhill wherever you end down. Well,
thank you so much. It's been so nice to talk
with you, and I just appreciate everything that you've done
in the inspiration that you've been to me and to
my daughter as well. To keep track of Alison Felix's
next moves, you can follow her on Twitter. Now. Maybe
(22:09):
you know Vanessa Williams as the chart topping singer of
hits like Save the Best for Last, or maybe for
her Emmy nominated role on the hit TV show Ugly Betty,
or for one of her many starring roles on Broadway.
I mean, seriously, Vanessa has been nominated for or one
(22:30):
nearly every award there is, and she's worked in every
facet of the entertainment industry, in addition to having her
own fashion line and becoming a best selling author. And advocate.
I'm fortunate to know Vanessa not just as a fan,
but as a neighbor since she grew up and her
(22:51):
mother still lives in Chappaqua, New York. The thing that
first brought Vanessa Williams to national attention was her barrier
breaking crowning as the first black woman to be Miss
America back in nineteen three. Soon after, she was forced
to resign when Penthouse Magazine published risque photos of her
(23:12):
without her consent. But boy did she make a comeback.
You know, I am so happy to have you on
this show. Vanessa and Chelsea and I did the very
last event in promoting our book of Gutsy Women with
you as the moderator at Pace University on a very
snowy winter night in December of twenty nineteen. And it
(23:36):
was one of the very last things that I did,
and I think you did before the world shut down. Right. Absolutely,
we had a wonderful turnout. Of course, your book is
amazing and so inspirational. And then uh we started twenty
I went off to London what I has told you,
I was going to start in City of Angels at
the Garrick Theater. We went into rehearsal, and then we
(23:57):
were in previews and then slowly people's arted calling and
saying I'm sick, I canceled my flight, or oh, I'm
nervous about coming because people are starting to get sick
around me. And then Broadway closed that March twelve, and
we closed the following Monday that the March, and then
all theaters shut down for a while. So it was hard.
(24:19):
It was hard. So how are you now? How have
you gotten through this pandemic time that we've all been
living through since then? Well, I was one of the
lucky ones. You know. For instance, Renee Fleming, brilliant soprano.
As a friend of mine, we started doing all these
Zoom cocktail hours, which everybody did, and while we're sipping
(24:40):
our wine, we're like, you know, we should do something together.
Let's do it live from our living rooms. And then
we started thinking about programs and shows, and then I
was like, well, why don't we do it actually in
a venue and do it socially distance And we end
up doing a show at the Kennedy Center, something that
we came up with a zoom and then you know,
(25:00):
I did a Elephantzgerald Christmas Swinging Christmas thing that we
did outside. I did a live from the West Side,
a Broadway thing that we did, you know, socially distanced streaming,
so you kind of change the game. And and I
still got a chance to sing from my piano, you know,
in the next room. And you made it work, so
I didn't really lose much at all, and I had
(25:22):
the convenience of doing most of my performing in my
own house. I love that. I love that, you know,
let's make it happen attitude. You also had that, and
that's exactly, you know, one of the reasons why I
admire you so much. You know, when I think about
your early career, it really was very much focused in
(25:42):
this place where we both live. And your parents were
both music teachers, right, and you came from a musical family.
You had the talent and the drive and the interest
to do it yourself. And as you know everybody knows,
you became the first black woman who was crowned Miss American.
I remember watching that. I remember seeing you long before
(26:05):
I knew I would live in your town. And god,
you are, I mean, you are just so magnetic. And
then you waged one of the great comebacks in entertainment history,
and you're such a role model for not only women
of color, but you know, young women and not so
young women. Uh. You know, just recently, I released a
master class about resilience, so you know, talk a little
(26:30):
bit about what you have inside of you that keeps
you up and going. Well, thank you for um that
observation and also being compared and in the same group
as you, because resilience is one of those things that
I don't know whether the fire in the belly is
what you're just born with, but I have it and
(26:50):
I know you have it. And we both had very
strong mothers that I do believe that I always wanted
to please, which is still she's still eighty two and
I'm still trying to fleeze her, which you know, it
informs a lot. I mean, I look back at my
marriages and like, you didn't like this person, Well guess what,
I'm gonna marry him anyway. And I mean, like a
(27:11):
lot of my choices, a lot of mother isches. But
we did write a book together and kind of wanted
to mention that. I mean, it has one of the
great titles of any mother daughter memoir. You have no
idea a famous daughter, her no nonsense mother and how
they survived pageants, Hollywood, love loss, and each other. Yes,
(27:35):
so you know, I think it gets passed down that
my mother is super very resilient and just fought her
way to the top of what she wanted to do.
And well, she was born in Buffalo, you know, raising
a very segregated place, and just fought to prove herself
time and time again. So I think that watching her journey,
(27:58):
seeing her resilience definitely was I would say the footprint
for my ease at being able to always kind of
trigger what I think comes naturally within my my bones.
But also as I've grown, and you know, at fifty
eight years old, I have way more wisdom. I realized
that you're always going to be judged no matter you
(28:21):
know from high school too, you're always going to be judged,
and they don't know who you are, they don't know
what you're thinking, they don't know what you're feeling. So
just leave that judgment at the door and believe in
yourself and know that, okay, you know what, they'll eventually
know who I am. I don't get a chance to
show them, and it's, you know, one of those things
(28:42):
that I've just kind of used as my template to
survive and to not give a dam. Really, yeah, you know,
everybody's judged, but look, it's harder for women. There is
still this you know, blatant double standard as somebody in
the public eye. You know, you do getticism, and you
know you can learn something. Sometimes your critics will tell
(29:03):
you things your friends you know won't. But you can't
let it pull you down and keep you down and
make you doubt yourself and lose your confidence in yourself.
And that's what I try to tell young people, particularly
young women, all the time. I said, get used to it.
You're gonna get criticized. It doesn't matter how hard you
try and how good you do. You're gonna get criticized.
(29:23):
Isn't that right? Absolutely? And also I mean what I
tell young younger women, I say, you know, do the work.
You'll get hired when people know that you show up
in your professional and you can handle stress, you can
solve problems. You're not incapable of of getting yourself out
of a situation or managing a situation. Right, that's what
your employer is gonna want to see, and that's what
(29:45):
makes you a good team player, a good actor that
they're going to bring onto an ensemble, that they know
that you can handle it and be able to to
be professional. You know, I've I've I've got four kids,
and that's what I always try to say. Show up
on time, do your best, and you'll always continue need
to get hired. Yeah, do the work right, We'll be
(30:06):
right back. I've always wanted to ask somebody who's in
the spotlight as you are, how do you memorize all
your lines? Do you have a trick? I do have
a trick. So most of the time people will look
(30:29):
at a page and think that they're gonna they do
it by road and go over and over and over again,
and as as soon as they stand up, they can't
remember a thing. So you have to make your muscle
memory work. So I do all myself on the treadmill,
So I'll say it out loud while I'm walking on
the treadmill, so when I'm in the scene and I'm walking,
(30:50):
I still have it connected to my body. So that's
one aspect. And then I also write out everything in scripts,
so I'm actually again physically writing out the words that
I'm speaking, and and just it's it's repetition, it really is. Yeah,
but I love this idea of doing it on the treadmill.
Another reason why I should get on the treadmill. Okay,
(31:12):
I am being I am being, you know, encouraged and
a little bit shamed, to be honest. You know, my
my daughter ran the marathon, the New York City Marathon, uh,
this past November, and I think all that athletic DNA
skipped a generation, you know, if it just went right
to her. You know. The other thing I just heard
(31:32):
is that you've got a really fun new role. You
switched gears again to become a judge on a drag
queen singing competition called Queen of the Universe. What's that
been like? It was amazing. We we shot it in London.
It is a global singing competition for drag queens, which
(31:53):
is always fun. Give me more sparkle, give me more glitter,
give me more sequence and uh. These queens competed from India,
you know, Brazil, China, France, the UK of course, the
United States, Mexico, Netherlands, all over the globe. And the
cash prize was two d fifty thousand dollars, which is amazing.
(32:15):
That's a lot of money for contest on TV and
they have to sing live. That was a big thing.
No lip sinking. They are singing live. You know that's good.
I mean the lip sinking, you know. Yeah, okay, that's fine,
but really for these contests, people should sing live. I'm
so happy you're doing that. Yeah, yeah, it was a
lot of fun. You know, you've been incredible in the
(32:36):
range of your roles your activities. Obviously you are a singer,
as we all know, but also an actor, a fashion designer,
a writer, an advocate. How have you switched between these,
you know, various talents and these roles that you've had.
I mean, I loved you in Ugly Betty, by the
way I loved you. I mean I don't know, I
(32:59):
loved and hated you, but I basically loved you. And
so how what would you advise somebody who had, you know,
a variety of interests and talents, because they do have
to do the work, But how do they know what
area to do the work in and how to build
a career or how can they follow your example and
be so versatile well, be open to um taking challenges
(33:20):
and risks. A lot of things that I never thought
I was going to be able to do came to
me because of doing something else. Uh. So you know, yes,
have a plan, yes, you know, have an outline of
what you think you want to do in life, but
then be open to the opportunities that you're not even
aware of that will come. I'm at this age now
or midlife. Have I made enough impact in my life?
(33:43):
What am I going to do? And the advocacy portion
of it really kind of fell in my lap. I
would say my biggest role as of yet as as
a founder of Black Theaty United, which happened um last
year after the George Floyd murder and all of my
friends from me Scoll Theater that we've been in shows
with for over thirty years. Augia McDonald called me, Lashawn's
(34:05):
called me, Norm Lewis, Brian Stokes, Mitchell. We were so
stunned and so enraged. We said, what are we gonna do?
We've got to do something. So we've been able to
not only um have amazing platforms where hopefully we'll have you,
be able to have you. Uh, but we've done town halls.
We have a new deal for Broadway which is about
(34:26):
e d I A b um and making sure that
there is inclusion and equity within commercial theaters, and that
advocacy part of my life, that real active boots on
the ground. Starting a foundation just recently happened and I
couldn't be prouder. And we're doing all the work, but
(34:46):
it's it's a lot, but it means something. It's meaningful,
and I'm happy to be a founding member of something
that will be a legacy and I can pass on
to my children, my grandchildren. You mentioned E D I
B D I A b SO equity, diverse city, inclusion,
accessibility and belonging. Oh, I love that. And we held
seminars with theater owners, producers, directors, casting directors, union people,
(35:13):
so people in front of the stage, behind the stage,
owning this stage, about how there has been damaged, how
you might not even be aware of the power of
diversity in the dollars and marketing UH and allowing everybody
to have a chance. The quote that I love is
diversity is a fact. Inclusion is a choice, So make
(35:35):
the choice to include us. That's really great. And you know,
when I think about the pandemic and how disruptive and
difficult it's been, I also think that a lot of
people found these kind of silver linings. You all are
such busy people, and so it's almost hard to believe
that you could have from your various you know, vantage
points and everything you were doing, found the time and
(35:57):
the energy to build this, except for the stomach when
everything was closed. But what a blessing that you did. Absolutely,
As as we discussed a little bit earlier, you know,
we both have had big public you know, moments that
we wished we hadn't had. You know, some people when
they go through things that are difficult, they get hyper cautious,
(36:19):
they get really defensive, they kind of shut down. How
how do you think about navigating life in the public eye.
You've been in it a really long time. I've been
in a really long time. It never gets easier, but
you get better at it, don't you exactly? Um, and
I certainly was very defensive for a long long time.
I mean I became famous at twenty years old, so um,
(36:42):
you know, uh, it really took me a long time
to say, yes I'm talented, Yes I'm smart, don't put
the beauty queen have that negate anything that is really me.
So I battled that for years and uh it was
probably once I got more success. My my career has
always been I didn't know she could do that. Really,
(37:03):
I didn't know she did. And every accomplishment I've been
undervalued and underestimated, and every time I've had an accomplishment, oh,
I didn't know if she could do that. So that
gave that gave me the thrill. It's like, okay, you
know what, just cut me out and I'm gonna come
in and surprise you all. So you know, it's like
with me, oh my gosh, oh wow, okay, And and
(37:25):
it's it's and people are always trying to fit you
into the box they've created, and it does get tiresome.
I mean, do you feel, as such a successful artist
in so many ways, do you feel like it's better
not just for you because you've proven yourself over and
over again, but for you know, young women coming behind.
(37:45):
Well for me personally, I finally reconciled and instead of
saying no, no, no, no no, I've said yes. I
was Miss America. So the pageant thing, because I was
I didn't want to be involved with anything with a
crown and pageant all the kind of stuff. So that
has taken me a while too. When people say you'll
always be my queen, I would roll my eyes, like
(38:06):
here we go again. And and now I think, Okay,
I remember when I was twenty years old and black
women would come up to me who are elderly and say,
I never thought i'd see it in my lifetime and weep.
I mean, when you are the first, that's so important
to so many people. So I've embraced that now as
opposed to saying oh, it didn't matter or oh please
(38:28):
don't bring it up, which has helped me just like, Okay,
that's my history, and that's let me accept it instead
of trying to fight it all the time. So that's
taken a lot of angst and defensiveness away. But for
women again, it's it's about the judgment and being put
in a box. And I mean you have to just
use that fuel for your fire and just say I'm
(38:50):
gonna I'm gonna prove to you, okay, got me out,
guess what I'm coming for you and and and prove it. Yeah. Well,
you can't change the past, and at some point, even
if other people can't get on and move from it,
you have to what is it that you're now fired
up about? Doing. I mean, do you have some plans
that you're looking forward to, some activities that get you
(39:12):
up in the morning. Oh, there's always something that comes
my way. Uh. I'm really excited about a Broadway project
that has a lot to do with the White House.
As soon as I have signed on. As soon as
we get a theater, I will call you immediately because
you will die. You will be there helping night. I
guarantee you. I will give you seats and you will
(39:34):
love it. It's a comedy, it's hilarious and you will
get everything and I will play the first lady. So
I'll have to call you for some tips. But it
is really funny. I am more than happy to be,
you know, a consultant and do whatever I can for you.
I cannot tell you how much I always enjoy you.
(39:55):
Always put a smile on my face. Vanessa. I just
want to wish you and your one her full family
all the best going forward. Thank you so much, and
it's always an honor to talk to you. And I'm
always amazed at what your next stage in life is,
which is always amazing. So thanks so much. Well, I
(40:17):
don't know about you, but I can't wait for this
mysterious play that Vanessa Williams told us is in the works.
You and Me Both is brought to you by I
Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and
(40:40):
Rob Russo, with help from Juma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman,
Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow, and Banita Zaman.
Our engineer is Zack McNeice and the original music is
by Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both,
(41:01):
please tell someone else about it. And if you're not
already a subscriber, what are you waiting for? You can
subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week.
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