November 13, 2024 • 13 mins
Couch Talks is the bonus episode of You Need Therapy that comes out every Wednesday where Kat answers questions that listeners send to kathryn@youneedtherapypodcast.com. This week, Kat responds to a listener question about a complicated, secret relationship that has suddenly come to light, leaving her to face painful fallout and deep self-doubt, as well as struggling with feelings of guilt, loss, and fear of judgment from those around her.
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Produced by: @HoustonTilley
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of couch
Talks on You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is kat
I am the host and if you are new to
couch Talks, it is the bonus episode of You Need
Therapy where I answer questions that you guys send to me.
You can send those to Katherine at therapy podcast dot com.
(00:30):
Quick reminder before we get into today's episode, this podcast
does not serve as a replacement or a substitute for
any actual mental health services. However, we always hope that
it can help you in some way wherever you are
on whatever journey you are on at the moment. Now,
we usually do one question a week and I always
keep them anonymous. I'm going to stick with that today,
(00:51):
and since I have no announcements or anything else to share,
I say let's just get into today's question, hear it? Hi,
kat I made a really good friend out of a coworker.
Over the course of five years, our friendship got closer
and eventually turned into a really deep relationship. When we
first met, he was a few years married. A few
(01:13):
months after our relationship took a deeper turn, his wife
got pregnant and soon after they had their first child.
I was so crushed, but also juggled those feelings with
knowing I had no place to feel hurt because there's
never any commitment made between us, just deep connection. Watching
him live his life that way and be so deeply
entangled with me was unbearable, a feeling that would soon
(01:36):
come to feel like home. I got a temporary position
at a company all the way across the country, hoping
the distance would create some distance between us so that
I could move on. But at that point I didn't
know the first thing about setting a boundary. We talked
every single day for a year. He was always adamant
that his relationship with her was pretty much non existent,
(01:57):
and I had nothing to worry about. At the end
of the temporary position, I decided to move back home
and take a job working with him again. A few
days after I moved home, I found out she was
pregnant again. Obviously confused, crushed, and angry, but I just
moved home and started this position. I didn't have the
resources to be a homewrecker at this point. There was
(02:18):
just something about us and the back and forth anger
and heightened joy and devastation and deepest connection I have ever,
felt continued until just the other day. The last few
months have been a turning point for me. In the sky,
we talked so much about how this is something that
we have to talk about.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Soon with other people.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
We were making plans to do so in the coming
months in a healthy and unified way. My brother and
sister in law, largely involved in the place that we work,
got wind of this secret. When they confronted me about it,
I said I didn't want to talk details yet, that
I had control of the situation, and when I was
ready to talk about it, I would talk to my family.
(02:54):
It wasn't happening fast enough for my brother in law,
so a few days ago he confronted the guy, and
still to this day, I do not know what was
said in the confrontation. However, within twelve hours, his entire family,
including his dad who also worked in the same place,
and my entire family and many groups of friends were
(03:14):
made aware of our five year relationship. I was in
such shock and didn't know what to do. I had
literally three hours to process that this was happening right now,
and within another twelve hours had no more communication with
him at all. His wife texted me last night a
messages that will echo in my mind, probably for the
rest of my life. In quotes, respectfully, you are a
horrible person. I have zero idea how to handle this,
(03:37):
from processing the way I am now being perceived by
everyone to the grief of a relationship I didn't know
was about to end. Am I a horrible person?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I'm just scared? Okay?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
So the first thing I want to say is thank
you for sharing this, because I can tell that there
are a million emotions you're going through right now, and
I can feel the fear that you mentioned at the
end of of your note to me. You're not a
horrible person. I think situations like this are very layered
and whether or not there's right or wrong in the
(04:09):
situation and if you did something wrong. I also want
to say this just out loud to anybody listening. In general,
doing one bad thing does not make you a bad person,
does not make you a horrible person.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
We all make.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Mistakes, and we all do things at times that are
outside of our own moral compass and our own value system.
That does not make us bad people. If that were true,
then we all would be bad people. And if we're
all bad people, then like, what does it really matter.
But I do want people to hear because I hear
this over and over in my office, and you know what,
there's been times where I have asked that question as well.
(04:46):
But when we do something that does not align with
our value system and we have guilt about it and
we feel like I did a bad thing, that does
not then equal you or a bad person. One action,
one DECI decision, or even a couple of decisions does
not get to rewrite the history of who you are
and what is actually on your heart and what your
(05:07):
intentions overall in the world are. We are humans, so
we're imperfect. We're going to do things that you know,
looking back on don't really make a lot of sense
or do make sense, but we would just wish we
wouldn't have done those things, or we have a change
of heart and what might feel like a good thing
in one moment later looking back on things where like
(05:28):
maybe with the knowledge I have now, I wouldn't have
done that same thing. Those decisions do not make us
bad people. The good news is we have guilt, and
guilt is a feeling that we get to experience to
help us get back on track to the people and
to the person that we want to be.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And so as much as it is.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Uncomfy to feel the feeling of guilt, I am very
grateful for it because without it, I think I would
do a lot of things that then maybe would make
me a bad person. Without guilt, we would have no
moral compass, we would have no values, or we have
very skewed, messed up, scary ones. Now there's a difference
between guilt and toxic shame. Toxic shame says, okay, I
(06:08):
did something bad, I'm a bad person. Gil says I
did something bad. I did something bad.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So shame tells you that it covers all of who
you are. Guilt says, hey, you kind of got off track.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Let's course correct for a second, and you might need
to make amends to somebody, or you might need to
do some digging about what led you to that thing,
might just need to process with a safe person what
was going on with you and how you got off track.
But you still can get back on track, and this
does not change the wholeness of who you are. I
think it's really really easy to simplify these kinds of things.
(06:39):
We want to simplify them because we want there to
be a good and a bad, a right and a wrong.
But really, when it comes down to I mean, we're
talking about like cheating, affairs, relation, infidelity.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
All of that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Rarely is it really that black and white and that simple.
Sometimes it is, but a lot of times it's not.
And like I said, you can act outside of your
value system and not be a bad person. We can
hold ourselves accountable for our behaviors that do not align
with the people we want to be and examine what
led us there and with this situation and why. I said,
(07:15):
it's so easy to simplify these things, but we can
simplify them when we don't have all the information, right,
it's like, oh, A plus B equals C. But what
about all of the other pieces that we don't have?
And I know with this email there's a couple of
things that this listener sent to me that I have
more information, but still not even all of the information
(07:35):
I would need to have. But the listeners especially aren't
seeing all the details here. And nobody knows if there
was manipulation involved, if the man you were working with
hold a position of power over you, if that position
of power was just in the workplace, if it was
in the community, if it was in different areas that
you show up in, if it wasn't a friend group, Like,
(07:57):
we don't know all of that, And I'm going to
let a little bit off script here, but on social
media lately, we've been hearing a lot about Zach Bryan
and his now ex girlfriend and what has transpired in
their relationship. And I'm not going to get into all
the details of it because when I don't, I.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Don't have all the details.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I know I have some of them that she's shared publicly,
and if you're interested, you can go look that up.
But she's sharing a lot of information that like, on
the outside, if we were judging her behavior and some
of the things that she was doing, we would be
like what.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
And I think people were like, what's happening to Brianna?
Like what is she doing?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
What's happening with her relationship with her friends and this
and that. But the more information you gather, the more
that she now is sharing about that relationship and what
was really happening, there's a better understanding of like, oh,
this guy was manipulating her. This guy was, from what
I can tell, emotionally psychologically abusing this girl. He was
(08:54):
isolating her he was gaslighting her, he was I mean,
there's a lot going on there that.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Okay, Well, she can still take.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Responsibility for her actions when it's appropriate. At the same time,
she can also have compassion and a better understanding of
what led her to act outside of her value system
in some of those areas, because it wasn't just like
everything was beautiful and easy and nice and wonderful, and
she just chose to do this thing that is so
outside of who she is, or she just chose to
(09:22):
cut off her friends, or she just chose to I mean,
I don't know all the things that she did and
that relationship, but I'm speaking more to you, the listener.
It's really easy for people to be like, oh, you
just chose to do this. Everything was fine, and you
had all of this, like you know, yellow brick road
laid out for you, and you just chose to do
(09:42):
this bad thing without any.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Other influences or voices or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
And we do not know, and I personally do not
know what was said to you, how it was said
to you, like the things that it sounds like there
was manipulation. And yes, we can take responsibility for our actions,
and at the same time, gain and under standing for
why we chose those actions and did we have full
control at that time?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Did we have all the information?
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Was I making an informed decision based on facts or
was I making an informed decision based on lives that
somebody was telling me? And I think that's a really
important thing to look at when we're trying to judge
ourselves or other people. If you were making an informed
decision but you weren't given the truth, then okay, that's
(10:28):
a little unfair to judge so harshly. Humans want to
believe the best in people. A lot of times that's me.
I've had to learn the hard way to be a
little bit more cautiously optimistic and be skeptical because not
everybody has the best intentions and not everybody is giving
you all of the truth. And I don't want people
to have to walk around the world jaded, but I
(10:48):
think experiences like these help you not trust blindly, as
a lot of us would like to be able to live.
I'm getting a little bit off track here, but what
I want to kind of say and is it sounds
like it would be really helpful for you to find someone.
It could be a therapist, it doesn't have to be.
But find somebody that you can trust to help you
(11:09):
tease out how you got to this place, how you
found yourself in this position. Not to blame you, not
to shame you, but to help you understand more about
your own story. And if you're feeling guilt again, that's
not always a bad thing. Guilt helps us look inward
when we act in ways that are outside of the
people that we really want to be, and when we
(11:31):
do something that doesn't align with our morals and values.
And at the same time, you can discover what impacted
those decisions to better understand that you aren't just a
bad person that did X, y Z. Maybe there was coercion,
Maybe there was manipulation, lying, psychological abuse, I'm not sure,
but to find out more information. Maybe there was some
(11:52):
trauma that was preyed upon, I'm not sure, or maybe
there was stuff from your past that you're reenacting.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Could be a million things, but.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
It does not have to mean that you're a bad person.
I think we can honor when we do something not
great and take accountability and not turn ourselves into evil people.
Toxic shame says you're bad. Guilt says I did a
bad thing. I remember that humans do bad things from
time to time. This is not an excuse. This is
not getting you off the hook. It's not any of that.
(12:21):
And I'm not even saying I'm not giving an opinion
of whether you did something wrong or not.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
If you decide that you did something wrong.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
And you acted outside of your value system and your
morals and you are not sitting well with that, I
want you to know that we can do bad things
and not completely tear ourselves apart. We are more than
one decision that we make. We are more than one
thing that happens to us. We are a compilation of
(12:49):
a lot of things. A lot of times I tell clients,
feeling guilt tells us that we're good people. Not much
as it's uncomfortable, it's helpful to know that. So I
hope this was helpful, and I hope you can find
some grace and understanding for yourself through this really, really,
really hard season that you're experiencing, because yeah, I didn't
(13:10):
even get into the fact that this thing happened, and
that includes the ending of a relationship that was meaningful
to you, and ending of relationships are hard enough.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
That's going to do it for me.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
If you guys have any feedback, comments, questions, anything, you
can send those to Katherine at Unitherapy podcast dot com.
And as always, I hope you guys have the day
you need to have by
Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of couch
Talks on You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is kat
I am the host and if you are new to
couch Talks, it is the bonus episode of You Need
Therapy where I answer questions that you guys send to me.
You can send those to Katherine at therapy podcast dot com.
(00:30):
Quick reminder before we get into today's episode, this podcast
does not serve as a replacement or a substitute for
any actual mental health services. However, we always hope that
it can help you in some way wherever you are
on whatever journey you are on at the moment. Now,
we usually do one question a week and I always
keep them anonymous. I'm going to stick with that today,
(00:51):
and since I have no announcements or anything else to share,
I say let's just get into today's question, hear it? Hi,
kat I made a really good friend out of a coworker.
Over the course of five years, our friendship got closer
and eventually turned into a really deep relationship. When we
first met, he was a few years married. A few
(01:13):
months after our relationship took a deeper turn, his wife
got pregnant and soon after they had their first child.
I was so crushed, but also juggled those feelings with
knowing I had no place to feel hurt because there's
never any commitment made between us, just deep connection. Watching
him live his life that way and be so deeply
entangled with me was unbearable, a feeling that would soon
(01:36):
come to feel like home. I got a temporary position
at a company all the way across the country, hoping
the distance would create some distance between us so that
I could move on. But at that point I didn't
know the first thing about setting a boundary. We talked
every single day for a year. He was always adamant
that his relationship with her was pretty much non existent,
(01:57):
and I had nothing to worry about. At the end
of the temporary position, I decided to move back home
and take a job working with him again. A few
days after I moved home, I found out she was
pregnant again. Obviously confused, crushed, and angry, but I just
moved home and started this position. I didn't have the
resources to be a homewrecker at this point. There was
(02:18):
just something about us and the back and forth anger
and heightened joy and devastation and deepest connection I have ever,
felt continued until just the other day. The last few
months have been a turning point for me. In the sky,
we talked so much about how this is something that
we have to talk about.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Soon with other people.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
We were making plans to do so in the coming
months in a healthy and unified way. My brother and
sister in law, largely involved in the place that we work,
got wind of this secret. When they confronted me about it,
I said I didn't want to talk details yet, that
I had control of the situation, and when I was
ready to talk about it, I would talk to my family.
(02:54):
It wasn't happening fast enough for my brother in law,
so a few days ago he confronted the guy, and
still to this day, I do not know what was
said in the confrontation. However, within twelve hours, his entire family,
including his dad who also worked in the same place,
and my entire family and many groups of friends were
(03:14):
made aware of our five year relationship. I was in
such shock and didn't know what to do. I had
literally three hours to process that this was happening right now,
and within another twelve hours had no more communication with
him at all. His wife texted me last night a
messages that will echo in my mind, probably for the
rest of my life. In quotes, respectfully, you are a
horrible person. I have zero idea how to handle this,
(03:37):
from processing the way I am now being perceived by
everyone to the grief of a relationship I didn't know
was about to end. Am I a horrible person?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I'm just scared? Okay?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
So the first thing I want to say is thank
you for sharing this, because I can tell that there
are a million emotions you're going through right now, and
I can feel the fear that you mentioned at the
end of of your note to me. You're not a
horrible person. I think situations like this are very layered
and whether or not there's right or wrong in the
(04:09):
situation and if you did something wrong. I also want
to say this just out loud to anybody listening. In general,
doing one bad thing does not make you a bad person,
does not make you a horrible person.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
We all make.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Mistakes, and we all do things at times that are
outside of our own moral compass and our own value system.
That does not make us bad people. If that were true,
then we all would be bad people. And if we're
all bad people, then like, what does it really matter.
But I do want people to hear because I hear
this over and over in my office, and you know what,
there's been times where I have asked that question as well.
(04:46):
But when we do something that does not align with
our value system and we have guilt about it and
we feel like I did a bad thing, that does
not then equal you or a bad person. One action,
one DECI decision, or even a couple of decisions does
not get to rewrite the history of who you are
and what is actually on your heart and what your
(05:07):
intentions overall in the world are. We are humans, so
we're imperfect. We're going to do things that you know,
looking back on don't really make a lot of sense
or do make sense, but we would just wish we
wouldn't have done those things, or we have a change
of heart and what might feel like a good thing
in one moment later looking back on things where like
(05:28):
maybe with the knowledge I have now, I wouldn't have
done that same thing. Those decisions do not make us
bad people. The good news is we have guilt, and
guilt is a feeling that we get to experience to
help us get back on track to the people and
to the person that we want to be.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And so as much as it is.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Uncomfy to feel the feeling of guilt, I am very
grateful for it because without it, I think I would
do a lot of things that then maybe would make
me a bad person. Without guilt, we would have no
moral compass, we would have no values, or we have
very skewed, messed up, scary ones. Now there's a difference
between guilt and toxic shame. Toxic shame says, okay, I
(06:08):
did something bad, I'm a bad person. Gil says I
did something bad. I did something bad.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So shame tells you that it covers all of who
you are. Guilt says, hey, you kind of got off track.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Let's course correct for a second, and you might need
to make amends to somebody, or you might need to
do some digging about what led you to that thing,
might just need to process with a safe person what
was going on with you and how you got off track.
But you still can get back on track, and this
does not change the wholeness of who you are. I
think it's really really easy to simplify these kinds of things.
(06:39):
We want to simplify them because we want there to
be a good and a bad, a right and a wrong.
But really, when it comes down to I mean, we're
talking about like cheating, affairs, relation, infidelity.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
All of that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Rarely is it really that black and white and that simple.
Sometimes it is, but a lot of times it's not.
And like I said, you can act outside of your
value system and not be a bad person. We can
hold ourselves accountable for our behaviors that do not align
with the people we want to be and examine what
led us there and with this situation and why. I said,
(07:15):
it's so easy to simplify these things, but we can
simplify them when we don't have all the information, right,
it's like, oh, A plus B equals C. But what
about all of the other pieces that we don't have?
And I know with this email there's a couple of
things that this listener sent to me that I have
more information, but still not even all of the information
(07:35):
I would need to have. But the listeners especially aren't
seeing all the details here. And nobody knows if there
was manipulation involved, if the man you were working with
hold a position of power over you, if that position
of power was just in the workplace, if it was
in the community, if it was in different areas that
you show up in, if it wasn't a friend group, Like,
(07:57):
we don't know all of that, And I'm going to
let a little bit off script here, but on social
media lately, we've been hearing a lot about Zach Bryan
and his now ex girlfriend and what has transpired in
their relationship. And I'm not going to get into all
the details of it because when I don't, I.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Don't have all the details.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I know I have some of them that she's shared publicly,
and if you're interested, you can go look that up.
But she's sharing a lot of information that like, on
the outside, if we were judging her behavior and some
of the things that she was doing, we would be
like what.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
And I think people were like, what's happening to Brianna?
Like what is she doing?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
What's happening with her relationship with her friends and this
and that. But the more information you gather, the more
that she now is sharing about that relationship and what
was really happening, there's a better understanding of like, oh,
this guy was manipulating her. This guy was, from what
I can tell, emotionally psychologically abusing this girl. He was
(08:54):
isolating her he was gaslighting her, he was I mean,
there's a lot going on there that.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Okay, Well, she can still take.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Responsibility for her actions when it's appropriate. At the same time,
she can also have compassion and a better understanding of
what led her to act outside of her value system
in some of those areas, because it wasn't just like
everything was beautiful and easy and nice and wonderful, and
she just chose to do this thing that is so
outside of who she is, or she just chose to
(09:22):
cut off her friends, or she just chose to I mean,
I don't know all the things that she did and
that relationship, but I'm speaking more to you, the listener.
It's really easy for people to be like, oh, you
just chose to do this. Everything was fine, and you
had all of this, like you know, yellow brick road
laid out for you, and you just chose to do
(09:42):
this bad thing without any.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Other influences or voices or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
And we do not know, and I personally do not
know what was said to you, how it was said
to you, like the things that it sounds like there
was manipulation. And yes, we can take responsibility for our actions,
and at the same time, gain and under standing for
why we chose those actions and did we have full
control at that time?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Did we have all the information?
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Was I making an informed decision based on facts or
was I making an informed decision based on lives that
somebody was telling me? And I think that's a really
important thing to look at when we're trying to judge
ourselves or other people. If you were making an informed
decision but you weren't given the truth, then okay, that's
(10:28):
a little unfair to judge so harshly. Humans want to
believe the best in people. A lot of times that's me.
I've had to learn the hard way to be a
little bit more cautiously optimistic and be skeptical because not
everybody has the best intentions and not everybody is giving
you all of the truth. And I don't want people
to have to walk around the world jaded, but I
(10:48):
think experiences like these help you not trust blindly, as
a lot of us would like to be able to live.
I'm getting a little bit off track here, but what
I want to kind of say and is it sounds
like it would be really helpful for you to find someone.
It could be a therapist, it doesn't have to be.
But find somebody that you can trust to help you
(11:09):
tease out how you got to this place, how you
found yourself in this position. Not to blame you, not
to shame you, but to help you understand more about
your own story. And if you're feeling guilt again, that's
not always a bad thing. Guilt helps us look inward
when we act in ways that are outside of the
people that we really want to be, and when we
(11:31):
do something that doesn't align with our morals and values.
And at the same time, you can discover what impacted
those decisions to better understand that you aren't just a
bad person that did X, y Z. Maybe there was coercion,
Maybe there was manipulation, lying, psychological abuse, I'm not sure,
but to find out more information. Maybe there was some
(11:52):
trauma that was preyed upon, I'm not sure, or maybe
there was stuff from your past that you're reenacting.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Could be a million things, but.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
It does not have to mean that you're a bad person.
I think we can honor when we do something not
great and take accountability and not turn ourselves into evil people.
Toxic shame says you're bad. Guilt says I did a
bad thing. I remember that humans do bad things from
time to time. This is not an excuse. This is
not getting you off the hook. It's not any of that.
(12:21):
And I'm not even saying I'm not giving an opinion
of whether you did something wrong or not.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
If you decide that you did something wrong.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
And you acted outside of your value system and your
morals and you are not sitting well with that, I
want you to know that we can do bad things
and not completely tear ourselves apart. We are more than
one decision that we make. We are more than one
thing that happens to us. We are a compilation of
(12:49):
a lot of things. A lot of times I tell clients,
feeling guilt tells us that we're good people. Not much
as it's uncomfortable, it's helpful to know that. So I
hope this was helpful, and I hope you can find
some grace and understanding for yourself through this really, really,
really hard season that you're experiencing, because yeah, I didn't
(13:10):
even get into the fact that this thing happened, and
that includes the ending of a relationship that was meaningful
to you, and ending of relationships are hard enough.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
That's going to do it for me.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
If you guys have any feedback, comments, questions, anything, you
can send those to Katherine at Unitherapy podcast dot com.
And as always, I hope you guys have the day
you need to have by
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