Finding Liberation From Prison Through Art with Tara and Omari Booker

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up on You Need Therapy.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
I got banged on my bunk one day and said,
you can't sleep your time away six and now they
called me six nine come around sixty nine. So six
was like my nickname in there.

Speaker 3 (00:12):
And so everybody has a nickname.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Everybody has it. Yeah, nobody goes by they their birth name.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
If we don't know something about ourselves at this point
in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
If you can die before you die, then you can
really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought
I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know what to
do because there was no Internet. I don't know, man,
I'm like, I feel like everything is hard.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first
and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting
you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become
more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the
world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy, Hi guys,
and welcome to another new Monday episode of therapy podcast.

(01:11):
My name is Kat, I'm the host, and quick reminder
before we get into anything that although I'm a therapist
and there's actually going to be another therapist on this episode,
this podcast does not serve as a replacement or a
substitute for any mental health services, although we always hope
that it helps wherever you are in whatever journey that
you're on. So this week I have not one but

(01:36):
two guests, which is very exciting, one you're very familiar with,
in one you haven't met yet. And my guests are
Tara Booker, which by now you guys know her just
as much as you basically know me, and her partner,
Omari Booker. And Omari is an artist who currently has

(01:57):
a solo exhibit at a gallery called Elephant Gallery in Nashville, Tennessee.
And this exhibit is called fifteen, which it will be
going on through May twentieth. But it's not your just
ordinary art exhibit, if you will, and I don't really
know if you can call any art exhibit ordinary, but

(02:19):
this one especially isn't because it marks a very important
part of Omari's story, which is the end of his
parole following a fifteen year prison sentence. In the last
fifteen years, Omari has found both relationships and art to
be two of the most valuable resources and healing agents

(02:41):
in his own story. And in this conversation we talk
through we talk about a lot of things, but we
talk about and we talk through how he access hope
in an unimaginable circumstance and how specifically he used art
to access both freedom and liberation through prisons that were

(03:02):
socially constructed and also prisons that are personally constructed in
our own minds. And I want to say this now
because I know people listening are going to be like,
oh my gosh, I need to see this stuff. I
need to see And I want to put a visual
with what we're talking about. And if you just want
to get connected with Omari in anyway, I've linked everything
that you need in the show notes, where you can

(03:24):
find him, where you can find his art, all of
the things. And again, his show is going through April
twentieth at Elephant Gallery. I highly recommend you see that
if you are in Nashville and that is possible, And
if you just want to connect with him on Instagram,
it's at Omari Booker. We also know that Tara doesn't
like to be found, so we don't have to give
that information. I want to say before I go into

(03:47):
our conversation that I feel very grateful to have been
able to be a part of this conversation. I said
to Tara's talking to her, I was like, there's so
many things I want to talk about, and I think
this is just going to be one of those episodes
where I just want to hear you guys, and you
all know that I can talk a lot, and this
is one of those conversations where I just wanted to

(04:08):
sit there and listen and listen and listen and listen
because there is so much and so I feel very
grateful to be able to have been part of this conversation,
and even more grateful that I now get to share
this with you guys, because I know there are so
many important nuggets inside of all that we talked about. So,
without further ado, here is my conversation with Tara and

(04:31):
Omari Booker. Okay, guys, we have an even more special
than a normal special episode today because we have an
old friend Tara. Wouldag say hello, Hello, Tara Booker here, Yeah,
and she's been on again. Our most what would you
call that most consistent, most returning? What's a word for that?

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Repeate?

Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yes, most repeatedness of vender and she is joined. We
are joined here with her partner, Omari. Which would you
like to do your little bit? You've been doing this
for the past two minutes.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
This is Omari test test check one.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
We've been doing that for about five minutes. Because Omari
has a different what do you call this? Is that octaves? Is?
What's an octave? He has a deeper voice.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yes, and even deeper with the allergy season, So I'm
extra soul radio.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
You probably are going to sound so good on.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
This coming for your job.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Anyway. We are here because there's something really exciting happening
in Omari's life that I think has the opportunity to
impact a lot of people's lives, and we're going to
talk all about that. I have saved a lot of
questions that I've wanted to ask beforehand because I want
to be kind of in this as you guys listening

(05:58):
are in it. So just so you know, when I'm
asking something, I really am asking because I don't know
the answer. And we're going to learn and get to
know Omari and Tara and o'mary together together. So I
want to start if you could tell us how you
guys met and maybe the beginnings of your relationship.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
I met Tara Booker on Broadway back when Broadway was
still for locals.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Wait, what bar was it?

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Well, it was currently called Jason al Deans. At that
time it was called Cadillac Ranch, and there was a
rooftop club called Karma, and Tara was sitting in the
VIP section, And though I was not in there, I
got close enough to the rope to ask if she
could come over and chat with me for a bit,

(06:47):
and she did, and we talked for a little a
little while, and I got it. I got the digits
and we went out the next week.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, oh my gosh, you were in the VIP section.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, nothing came with that except for being in the seats.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
Okay, it was some person. I knew you'd have to
pay extra to get in there.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
Not with the person who got the seats fancy.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, okay, so wait, I am very This isn't the
point of the podcast, but I'm just curious. What were
your thoughts when you met him? We were I hope
he asked for my number.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Oh, yeah, I can tell you. Well. He was very handsome,
and as I was talking to him and he asked
for my number, he said, I'd like to take you
out sometime. Can I have your number? The things that
struck me really in the moment, and this is two
thousand and nine. I was at the end of my
twenty first year, so I was almost twenty two, not quite,

(07:45):
so I was still baby in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
That's so interesting to think about, I know.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
So the things that struck me at that time were
he was very gentlemanly. I could tell that he didn't like,
asked to buy me a drink, he didn't ask to
come dance with him. It was definitely a bar where
it was a club really where you could do that.
And he didn't ask to like take me home. It's

(08:13):
so kind, and all of those things felt unfamiliar, like
it was literally we just had a conversation. Where are
you from? Oh, you're both we're both from here, you're
in school, you're doing this. Nice to meet you. Could
I have your number and take you out sometime? It
was just respectful and normal and kind and direct, And

(08:34):
I thought, I'm curious about this person because this feels
unfortunately in a lot of ways unusual, maybe especially in
a situation like that.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
That's a whole podcast for another day, right of how
that felt unusual, and then you're like, huh, this makes
me curious. I want to get to know this person,
and that feels to me, and this is knowing not
so much a lot healthier than some of these situations
that I think a lot of us have encountered, and
people listening and have encountered where it's like this world

(09:04):
when I was this crazy night.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, it was maybe fifteen minutes, ten minutes. Good for
you chatting nice.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
He's like, I did a job. Okay, So you met
in with that two thousand and eightine nine. Okay, so
you met in two thousand and nine. How did that
relationship go? Like the movement of it, because then we're
going to get into all of the other stuff. So
what was that process? You went on a date the
next week?

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, we went on a date I believe it was
Wednesday of the next week and went to dinner. Still
remember the spot that we went to, went to dinner,
and it went like slowly initially, and then when I
found found out that I was leaving, it kind of. Yeah.
I wouldn't say that it went any quicker, but definitely
like the intensity of having to make some kind of

(09:52):
big decisions pretty early about what we're going to do
with this huge thing in my life, which which was
I might have to go to prison. I don't know
how long it's going to be, and I'm just kind
of in that limbo until I do.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
And so when you met Tara, were you aware that
that was a thing? Was okay?

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, So I was out on bond at the time
that I met Tara. I had been arrested bailed out,
but it.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
Was a trial court yeah, well court date in October.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yes, but we didn't really know what was going to
happen because it wasn't necessarily trial. It could have been
a plea for something smaller, like we didn't know what
there were so so the results weren't necessarily jail time
at that point. It could have been heavy probation, it
could have been so so I was I was awaiting
the Yeah, what was going to happen with the sentence
for sure?

Speaker 1 (10:46):
So what was that process like of not knowing what
could happen and so many different things could happen. How
did you go out and just live your life with that.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, I think I have always kind of been pretty
one day at a time, and at that point that
was the that was sort of how I was living
was you know, I met Tara, I thought that she
was amazing, and in my hope was that if the
worst case happened, which was me leaving, that you know,
I would make enough of an impression that when I

(11:18):
came home, I could go find her and and we could,
you know, we could continue, especially the age that she was.
I didn't feel really pull to ask her to go
through that with me because I didn't want didn't know
what it was gonna be or when it was going
to end. If it was like a year or something,
then it probably would have been something different. But yeah,

(11:38):
that that whole season was just very unknown, and I
think we were sort of able to, you know, to
fall in love at the pace that we would. And
of course I fell in love first and set it
first and all all that stuff, but but yeah, I
think my kind of knowing who she was and would
be to me just me to kind of pursue it

(12:01):
in the way that you wouldn't pursue anything that you
knew was the right thing for you.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, I'll add some stuff. He's not so much a
linear thinker or talker, so and I tend to be
in that like what I remember, and you can speak
to this or just it if it doesn't quite fit.
I remember about the before you knew your sentence before that,
so that was about a month into us dating. He

(12:29):
didn't know. He still didn't know what's going to come
of this charge essentially from a year before, and it
really felt like he believed, or was holding on to
hope whatever one of those fits, that he was going
to get probation. And I think in a lot of
ways that's also a survival mechanism, like you're not just

(12:50):
going to expect that you're going to have to be incarcerated.
And there's a lot of other reasons why. I think
that would have made sense too, that he actually that
would have been the result legally speaking. So I think
that was part of the what are you doing in
between the arrest and waiting to see what happens with
this charge is you were living your life. You went

(13:10):
back to college, and he hadn't finished his undergrad he
had been out of school for several years. That also
was a little bit of when art started to already
enter back in. He went back in specifically for graphic design,
which was not the study that he had studied however,
many years before, when he had initially started college and
was working and going to school and then going out

(13:33):
like a normal person, meeting me, dating and then not knowing,
oh all of them, I gonna be able to do
any of these things if I because I'm going to
be going to prison.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, which is so a wild that's just wild to
just think about. I want to read, because we're like
teasing it a little bit. I want to read part
of it's the beginning of this article that was in
Nashville Scene. Terror sent this to me. I want to
read this because this is really a nice little summary
of what I think is something that has the ability

(14:08):
to impact a lot of people. And obviously this is
your life, so it's been an impact for you, and
I want to get into this. So if people are like,
what are they talking about? This is a article from
the National Scene and it's written by Erica Chicaroni, which
you have the coolest last name in the world, and
she wrote in two thousand and eight, Omari Booker was
arrested for a nonviolent drug offense and a poetic gesture

(14:32):
of optimism. He took an art class at Tennessee State
University when he was out on bond awaiting sentence. He
entered Charles Basque Correctional Complex in two thousand and nine
with a fifteen year sentence. Booker served three and a
half years before being released on parole fifteen. His Moving
Solo exhibition at Elephant Gallery, on view through May twentieth,

(14:56):
marks the end of his parole. In a June two
thousand and seven ten interview for Nashville Arts Magazine, Booker
told me that when he was incarcerated, art became a
way to feel free. When I was drawing, sketching and
listening to my headphones, I didn't feel like I was
in prison anymore. He wants his work to help others
access freedom as well, from prison socially or personally constructed,

(15:18):
in other words, from whatever keeps us all from liberation
of the mind. So I wanted to read that because
that is a lot in two paragraphs. And if anybody
who was listening, we've been like tiptoeing around this. You
were waiting your sentencing, you got sentenced to fifteen years
in prison.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
I did.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
I can't assume whether people are feeling, but to me,
that sounds really, really scary.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, and I think that's part of when I think
back to the time before I was sentenced and now
I'm at the end of the I'm at the end
of it. I have completed it. But initially it felt
like a shock. It felt like, yeah, are you serious,
first offense, nonviolent drug possession, college kid. Yeah, dad's a lawyer,
Dad knows the jail like all of these things. So

(16:07):
I was optimistic. But I was only optimistic because from
the community that I was connected with, nobody got that
kind of time. Yeah, and that's not the black community,
but you know, the schools that I went to, the
environments that I've been in, similar offens has happened, and
so so yeah, I think I was. I was a

(16:28):
little bit blindsided by the amount of time. And so
so when it came to Tarry and I was like, yeah,
I don't even know what to tell somebody that I
love about, Like I could be gone for for fifteen
years or five or ten however long before I make
pro which you don't know. But it ended up being
three and a half years then.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
I made pro But you don't know that.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
You don't know at the beginning, you have no idea. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
So what I love about having you here and Terror
here is that you guys walked through this season together
the whole time, which is so cool. And I want
to get to learning more about how you used art
and all that to find some peace and hope and

(17:14):
all the things in a space like this before we
get there. I'm curious for Tara because I didn't know
you at this point. I think I met you. I
must have met you in twenty thirteen, So were you
already out?

Speaker 3 (17:30):
I thought I came home in January of thirteen. Oh
my goodness, you met me right after you came home.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah, okay, so when that happened, it was a shock
to Omari was also.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
A shock to you, definitely.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Okay. So you're thinking, like that wouldn't be the outcome.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
No, I have no frame of reference for a person
exxperiencing a fifteen year prison so yeah, no, not at all.
So when I also, you know, know, people in my
family had experienced drug charges, so like it wasn't like
the whole system was completely foreign to me. Yeah, but
it was like little smaller possessions and little probations and

(18:09):
multiple operations and little stuff like that. So no, yeah,
it was shocking.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
So two of you, separately and together, I want all
of these answers. How did both of you in the
beginning of that awareness cope with the future separately and
how did you do that together? Because it's a new relationship,
right relatively? Yeah, six six months weeks? Oh six weeks?
Oh my gosh, I was thinking, I don't know why

(18:37):
I heard months in my head.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
Okay, week August to September till October.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, okay, it was like between six and eight weeks,
maybe eight weeks total before he left. He got his
sentence and had about two.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
Weeks, yeah, sixteen days to get my affairs in order
before I was, before I to turn.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
Myself in it got the sentence when maybe we were
about six ish weeks into dating, and then leave a
couple weeks later, so we had about a couple months
of being together before we're going to do this.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, how did you prepare for that or did you
even know how?

Speaker 2 (19:10):
I don't think we intellectually prepared for it. I think
like spiritually we had some things that we could draw
on that we didn't know that we had until we
had to draw on them. And so I think I
kind of wanted to both sort of hold on and
let go, and I think Tara knew that I wanted

(19:30):
to hold on and let go, and she was really
gracious in kind of allowing both and just saying that,
you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna be here as long
as it is, as long as we're in a relationship
and it works, and if it ever doesn't work, we'll
we'll cross that bridge when we get there. And so
so we did kind of slow everything down to a

(19:51):
we're gonna go day by day, you know, we'll write letters.
And once we got to visit, we visited and it
kind of went day by day and till we got
into a couple of years of it. And Yeah, but
I don't think either one of us had any idea
how challenging it would be or what it meant to
do it. Yeah, we just we kind of had to

(20:12):
walk our way through something we didn't.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah, nobody's like, let me tell you what we did.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, I think it feels important for me to acknowledge that,
like we in the sense of how did we prepare
what was our mindset or whatever going into it. It
wasn't magical or mystical or fantastical. It wasn't a fucking
movie where we're like, I'm just so in love with you,
We're going to do this. I was literally as simple

(20:38):
as I mean, I was not swept away six weeks
and I didn't just maybe was considering that I loved
him and was very into the relationship. But I think
because of these dynamics that are so like out of
the normal, it can start to feel like a mystical story,

(20:58):
and I want to put some reality into it. In
the sense that I just simply wasn't led to leave.
It really came down to that. For me. This came
and I wasn't like, I don't want to do it,
and so I just said, I'm just gonna keep hanging
out and see if I start to feel different.

Speaker 1 (21:19):
Which, like, God, bless you for saying that, because it
goes back to even you talking about how you guys met.
It wasn't this like I saw fireworks in his eyes
and he took me home and I never left his
apartment for six weeks. Like it was. He asked for
my number and he was kind and like, what if
that's what we were out here looking for? So it's
not this sensationalized thing of this like love story and

(21:42):
what's gonna happen and dead da day. It was like
this was just what it was and it was nothing
more than that until it was.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
And it was then just day by day. Like I
think actually most relationships go in the beginning, Well real relationships,
you're just like, Okay, we'll just keep seeing how we feel.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, that's so funny because whenever people I'm sure you
have this, when clients are, you know, dating something, they're like,
I don't know if I like him, I don't know,
d like I don't know, but he doesn't have this
and like I can't see this, and like what if
he doesn't want this in the future, And I'm like,
do you want to see this person again? Yes, okay,
go do that. Like all of that stuff doesn't have

(22:19):
to be figured out, So you both didn't need to
know what was going to happen in fifteen years with
both of y'all to know that you didn't want to
stop whatever is happening at that moment.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
And yeah, and the one thing I would add to
that is if people here don't know Tara, they don't
don't know Tara Booker from outside of this conversation. That's
just consistent for her life, Like she's not led to
leave because something is difficult. It's like she'll leave if
it's not right. But her work, her family, her loved ones,

(22:50):
I mean, her entire life is an example of if
I'm supposed to go, I'll go, but not because it's hard.
That's not gonna be the reason I'm gonna go. And
I think that's that's the reason that we're sitting here.
A lot of people, even if it was right, they
would leave because it's hard, and that's just that's not her.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
So what a good quality to have Tara.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
That's touching.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
This conversation is spurring from this exhibit you have that's
out right now, and reading this article made me think
you were not an artist until that point. Were you
already doing art and painting and drawing before that or
when you went back to TSU? Was that like a
random thing.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
I was making art before, I wasn't making art consistently
or professionally. But I took my first art class as
a senior in high school. I changed majors my third
year into Belmont. So I went to Belmonte University as
a math major and to play basketball, and my third
year I changed to a graphic design and studio art
major before leaving school, and so I had an introduction

(24:03):
to art and art making. But I was also going
through mental health diagnosis at the time. I was diagnosed
with bi polar disorder when I was nineteen, and so
a lot of my early art making wasn't very focused,
and because the way that my life was going, I
wasn't realizing how much art making was doing for me.
So I had an introduction, and so when I did

(24:24):
get into making art in prison, it wasn't like picking
up a foreign thing. It was almost like, yeah, I
know my way around these materials, but actually learning how
to use the materials. The work progressed. I mean, it's
light years from when I was in. I was really
a beginner when I was in Even though I had

(24:44):
taken some classes, I was still early enough and making
artwork that that was very new to It.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Is a lot of what you've done just self taught
through experiencing and doing it.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
It's both My Tennessee State University was art department that
I graduated from and had great instructors. Sam Dunsan, who's
gonna moderate a gallery talk with us on on April
twenty eighth at Elephant. He was my art instructor at TSU.
Mister Wallmac Jim Walmack was my art instructor in high school.

(25:17):
And I had a lot of other mentors, Michael McBride,
James Thrillkill, just artists in the community. So I definitely
was taught, and then I kind of had to continue
pushing what I learned. Like anybody in school, if you're
an artist, you might, you know, go to two three
four years of school for art, but you're going to

(25:37):
be making artwork for forty fifty years and so so
you kind of get But I definitely would. I would
definitely say that I that I was taught, and then
I also did a lot of exploration on my own too.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
Okay, so you go into prison, which can you give
me a little bit of what that like? First day
was like, Yeah, the first day.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
You know, Tara and I would have been together that morning,
like the day that I got in and the day
I got home, and she would have dropped me off
and picked me up on both sides of that. So
so yeah, I mean I think there was just a
lot of heavy depression when I first went in. I mean,
for one thing, the diet was hard to get used to.
For my size. You can't see through my voice, but

(26:22):
I'm about six eight nine two hundred and twenty five pounds,
and just the amount that you were fed was kind
of jarring. So it's like really really hungry all the
time until I kind of was there long enough to
you know, to get commissary, which is just like your
groceries or whatever, and you sort of figure out ways
to supplement that. So I think one of the initial

(26:42):
things was really just like the physical part of it,
like how bathing was kind of gross, how hungry you were,
how like waiting for the phone was a challenge, being
new to the environment and in certain people already being
kind of connected and looking at ways to take advantage

(27:03):
of you know, I don't even mean like take advantage physically,
but with whatever food you get or Yeah, so it's
like just the whole experience of being dropped into a
place when you have to really be vigilant about how
you take care of yourself. So so so the emotional
stuff there wasn't even really time for that to hit

(27:26):
because like the physical day to day was such a
drastic difference. Yeah, trying to fit on the bed, you know,
all the stuff, and then just yeah, just just depression,
so trying to sleep as much as possible.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Initially, the beginning sounds like just how do I survive this?

Speaker 2 (27:43):
How do I survive it?

Speaker 1 (27:45):
So yeah, yeah, I might be depressed, but we can't
even go into that because I have to learn how
to make it through this day for sure, or this
night or this meal. Do you remember the tear of
that first day.

Speaker 3 (27:57):
I remember taking him and chopping him off, and then
I didn't get to hear from him for a little while.
I don't remember the timeline exactly on that a couple
of weeks, so it's just waiting for me. He goes
into County Jail, you get like go through a process
of intake, and then they transfer you to the prison

(28:19):
that you're going to be at more permanently. So the
first couple of days are in County Jail and then
you land at Charles Bass and then things start to
you start to figure out the system of that, like what, okay,
your kid call me? How does that work. I can
write you, you can write me. How does that work?
When are you eligible for visitations? That's when you start

(28:43):
to think about that. But at the beginning it was
just I don't know. I'm just gonna wait till you
call me and see how you're doing.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Does it feel like a long time ago? Does it
feel like yesterday? Does it feel like fifteen years ago?

Speaker 2 (28:56):
It feels like fifteen years ago to me, Okay, it
doesn't feel like just yesterday. I mean, Tara's been a
profession she's been a professional therapist for a long time,
and she was working at Reebok in undergrad like the
the thing, like what her life looked like. I mean,
I remember that one of the biggest I wouldn't say

(29:17):
challenges with things we had to pay attention to was
I might only have a small window to call, and
so if she missed that call, I might not be
able to get back out, we might get locked down whatever,
And so her having to communicate with her manager at
her store of like, I know, we're not supposed to
have our phone while we're out working the floor, but
my partners in prison and if I miss his call,

(29:38):
I can't get it. And then you know Nikki who
that manager was, and Shannon who we still remember, these
these people because they, yeah, they kind of made sure
that that she had some special yeah, that she could
do the things that you know, made me be able
to get through the day, because if I couldn't make
that call, I mean, you know, any guy that is,
or any person that is that's in love with a

(30:00):
twenty two year old beautiful woman and can't yeah, not
only can't hear their voice, but also you know, no,
you can't be there. It's it would be it would
get really tough to not be able to communicate.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
So, which I want to highlight this and this probably
is going to come out not the best way, but
I'm just going to say what's coming in my head.
What is interesting what you just said is the way
you phrased it was her managers being able to give
her the permission or privileges or whatever she needs so
she can get a call from you. But it's just

(30:33):
as much about you being able to talk to her. Yeah,
and I don't know these people, but to have the
ability to say it's not just about Tara. This person
is trying to contact somebody that they care about and
they're in a un distressing situation and we're thinking about
them too. Those people sound wonderful, And I want to
say that because I feel like if I'm saying this

(30:57):
with honesty, and there's like shame in it too. But
if I didn't know you, actually, if I didn't know you,
and this was like fifteen years ago and I heard
somebody got sentenced to jail for fifteen years for a
drug offense, I don't know that I would it would
matter what it was because I didn't understand. I wouldn't

(31:18):
been able to understand it. I don't know that I
would be thinking that, like, I don't know that I
would be thinking, oh my gosh, now it feels very different.
And I don't know if that's age or if it's
just the people I'm around, the work i'm in. But
for people to have that first thought being there's somebody that, yeah,
he's in prison, what I'm really saying is people that

(31:41):
see people in prison have this automatic idea that they're
bad or they did something bad, and so then they're bad,
and that's not really the case here. And I just
think it's nice that those people, whether or not they
realize that's what they were doing. They're automatically having that
thought of like, this is a human being that deserves
connection with people.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yeah, And I think that's something to like when people
think about what could I do? You know, you might
be the manager at a at a Reebok or a
McDonald's or Wendy's, and you're gonna have someone that's in
this situation. For every one person that's in prison, there's two, three, four, five,
six people that are trying to navigate these situations like

(32:19):
I need off work on Saturday so I can drive
an hour away from where I live to go visit
this person that you know. So so yeah, I mean
I think that's something that when people ask like what
can I do, it's like, yeah, just paying attention to
what things might show up in your life that even
though you might have this notion of what someone incarcerated

(32:40):
would be like or looks like or is like that's
a big part of what the show was about. It's like,
the same guy that was sitting in that cell is
the same guy that's sitting here, and you would make
those concessions.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
For me, Now what I have done that?

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Would you have done it? Then?

Speaker 1 (32:52):
And so so yeah, what has that been like for
both of you, because there probably were people that weren't
like that. Why soon and that was there were there
people that maybe were more just like automatic judgment.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Yeah, I'm gonna just say one other thing about something
that came up that doesn't need to take us down
a huge rabbit hole, especially while he's not here. But
and I'll come back to that, the thought about like
you did a thing and you got in prison, and
are you a bad person or you did a bad
thing or whatever? What is really true for me personally?

(33:27):
And he can speak to this in his own way,
I know he sees it similarly, is he did an
illegal thing that does deserve a consequence. I want to
name that because his conversation can get also get put
in a light that maybe isn't where we stand exactly,
of like everyone should be absolved of everything they do.

(33:48):
That's not where we stand. And really what that meant
for me is, like I think it is being highlighted
in this where it's very much a both and like
I actually had a lot of issue with it being
a drug. It was drug sales, drug possession for drug
sale resale. I had a lot of personal issue with

(34:09):
that having loved to want to struggle with addiction, like
I had to wrestle with those things, and I did
that very overtly with him. That was part of the
first couple of months of us dating, was having to
have those tough conversations where I had to be able
to understand the human being behind this thing that I
also was not in agreement with and was had a

(34:31):
lot of feelings about it being done in the world.
So I think that does speak to the complexity of
these two sides of everything's we're talking about, where it's
like you see someone this way, that is him, and
this is him. He did that. It's not I don't
I'm not okay with it, and I'm okay with him.
It's very complex.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Because he did that doesn't equate to that is him.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
That's of course, and that's what I'm I think I
want to communicate is there's those layers in this story
and they were very real for us.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
Well, and I'm glad you said that, because you're right.
There could be this notion that you're like, he should
just be excused because he's a good person, And yeah,
I think without consequences, this whole world would be so
chaotic and when you have that automatic assumption that these
kinds of people do that stuff, and these kinds of
people do that stuff, that doesn't equate to reality, and

(35:25):
I don't know that a lot of people. If you
don't have that experience, it's almost like, if you don't
have that experience, it's a whole thing with racism, it's
a whole thing with all of any of that kind
of stuff, sexism, whatever. If you don't have that experience,
then you have the privilege of not having to consider it.
But you not considering it is making a lot of

(35:46):
things worse that don't need to be worse. And it's again,
it's the humanity of all of it. That's what I
wanted to highlight is those people that don't even know you.
I assume they didn't even know you, maybe they hadn't
met you. But the humanity that people can offer. And
how big of a deal because those phone calls probably
made such a big deal in your everything.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah, only thing that I waited for in the day.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Yeah, okay, So take us through. Because you were telling
me earlier when we were talking that you didn't start
drawing and painting and doing art at all when you
got in there, So how did that progress and how
did that happen? And then if you weren't doing that,

(36:29):
how were you coping and what were you doing with
your time besides waiting for Taratt to call.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yes? Yeah, Well, for one thing, everyone that's incarcerated has
a job. So if you are in the prison system
anywhere in Tennessee, you have a job. So you're either
manufacturing something. You might be making food that goes to
hospitals or other institutions, clothes, whatever that's associates.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
Can you opt out of a job.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
You cannot apt out of a job.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
Yeah, so you get to pick I'll no, do you
get to pick your job?

Speaker 2 (37:01):
No, you don't.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
This is why it's called the prison industrial complex because
it's an industry that they are laboring people.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, there's a book choice. Yeah, there's a book called
slavery by another name.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
And so making a point here, yeah, absolutely, Yeah. So
you have no say yeah, and you have to do it.
And if you don't do it, if you.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
Don't do it, you get you get put in what
you know, what they call the holes. You get put
in solitary confinement. So you agree to do it.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
So I was reading the poem that was on the website.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
I don't remember what the poem was called this Blackbird.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
Okay, No, it wasn't the poem, it was the story.
It was a journal entries about shine.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yes, yeah, one man.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Left now I understand what He was a shoe shiner,
and he couldn't say I'm not working today, no, no
matter how those people treated him or said what happened. Also,
you would get you said in there the whole Yes, you'd.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
Get either put in solitary confinement or you would get
removed from the prison and sent to a more challenging
place like an a rougher prison basically. So it's like,
say you got comfortable somewhere in East Tennessee, your family
was close by, you said you're not gonna work. They'll say, well,
we'll ship you to West Tennessee. So your family's got
a drive five and a half plus hours to see you.

(38:13):
You know, there could be all all the repercussions of
going to a brand new institution with a brand new
group of people.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
And another job you don't pick, and.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Another job you don't pick. So you're gonna do the
work anyway. So yeah, and I'd really encouraged slavery by
another name. I don't remember the author, but the prison
industry had its biggest boom when slavery was abolished. So
at the abolition of slavery, prison was essentially like enforced
to make sure people still worked at the same level

(38:45):
as slaves. And it also took all.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
Of the rights this slavery took. It took the same
you lost the same it was the same rights.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
So this is me talking very. I don't know what
I'm talking about. So if I say something wrong, just
people listening. I'm saying I'm educated on this. I don't
know what documentary it was that I was watching, but
it was a documentary and it was talking about the
just say no, the like say no to drugs like
all of that. Yeah, yeah, and I forgot what it

(39:14):
was at the whatever Again, I don't I'm expert in this. Whatever.
President pushed this agenda of the war on drugs, the
war on drugs, so that's yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
It was kind of Reagan into Clinton.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
Yes, okay, yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Clinton had the Crime Bill of nineteen ninety four, which
was the three strikes You're in and it pulled all
the college courses out of prisons, like if you were
the pale grants and whatnot, So it kind of pulled
a lot of the rehabilitative and then Reagan had more
of the War on drugs, so it was kind of
a it was kind of a two part thing where
the War on drugs lacks people up for a really

(39:47):
long time. Then the Crime Bill pulled all the resources
and made it just work camps, you know, essentially.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
And then so what if somebody supposed to do when
they it wouldn't if they get out, It's like you're
just preparing them to come.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Back here back. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
Okay, so that's a whole thing. But that makes me
think about just like you not expecting the sentencing that
you got, and then you get put in this prison
and you are then working this job that you have
no say in. And again, I think it's really important
to highlight what Tara said earlier. Nobody is saying that

(40:23):
you didn't do something illegal and there should be repercussions there,
but it is just some things might not be adding up,
things aren't matching up, and so for that to then
lead you to be in prison working a job you
don't have any say in, that's just a whole different perspective.
To think about. People in prison are just like laying
in their beds.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
Not at all, You're working all day.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Did you have the same job the whole time?

Speaker 2 (40:48):
I had a few different jobs. Most of it was
food related. I worked in a kitchen serving food, and
then I worked in kind of a plant that we
produce food that actually did get sold at And that's
kind of another thing that people don't really realize is
that things that we produce, even though our pay starts
at nineteen cents an hour, it gets sold in the
general market at the rate. So if we're making the food,

(41:11):
it's being sold to a hospital at the rate that
food is sold that but the labor is still being
paid nineteen cents, thirty four cents fifty cents an hour.
So I think that's something that people don't really consider,
which is why there's an incentive to have that workforce there.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
You know, write more money, more money, Yeah, and you
are making nineteen thirty four fifty whatever how many cents
an hour. Again, it goes back to my question of
when you leave, how unless you have support, unless you
have resources, unless there's plenty of people that don't have anything,

(41:50):
how are you going to then enter back into the
world because I'm assuming some.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
Of the money without the resources, because that those so
many cents an hour are the things he has to
use for commentary, to eat, the amount of food that
his body actually needs in a day.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
So you're not saving those that money, You're using it
to be able to survive.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
Yeah, and for phone time, oh, all the things that.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
Cost you're working to be able to live in prison
for sure.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yes, stamps so you can write your your loved one
and it's like, you know you whatever I make, I
would like to put that towards putting money on the phone,
because you also don't want to ask your girlfriend at
the time to spend half of a check. See, y'all
can talk every day.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
So another question I have because I don't know how
do you get the material to draw?

Speaker 2 (42:37):
Things like pencils and pens. They either sell on commissary.
Sometimes you can get some from an get one from
an officer that you know that leaves one around and
doesn't mind you using it or whatever. Sometimes you can
get one by making a drawing for Like there were
officers that did drawings for and they took them home
to their to their their loved ones, and that kind

(42:58):
of thing, So there are ways to get at some
of those materials. I was just being really creative. I
think that that incarcerated people are are some of the
most creative and resourceful people in the world, which is
what I think society does itself a huge disservice by
not integrating those people back into society, because that's where

(43:19):
you would find creative solutions, like the cure for cancer,
the cure for like all of those things that you
need a creative solution for. These are the people that
have found ways out of no way for a lot
of them, for their whole life. I mean, I knew
guys had made ink and paint from scraping the pigment
off of magazines and mixing it with toothpaste. Who could

(43:42):
boil water with a piece of wire and a battery,
you know that just found ways to do make tattoo
guns out of all kinds of just little things. So yeah,
I think like that that's the biggest disservice that society
does to itself by shoving this group of people into

(44:02):
the end of the recesses of the world, is that
these are the people that have had to figure something
out that most people haven't even had to think about,
you know, And so so yeah, there's there's a lot
of yeah, a lot of gifts, a lot of talent,
a lot of creativity. I'm grateful for that side of
it to have been in that in that space where

(44:23):
I had to figure some of those things out. One
of my drawings is made on a kitchen apron. So
when I was working in the kitchen, I kept one
of the aprons when I went back to my unit
and cut it in half and stretched that on a
piece of cardboard like a canvas and made a drawing
that I sent home for Terror. That drawing is in
the show.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Is that's the one I sent Tara, Yes, because I
saw it in the show and it said not for sale,
and I sent it to her and I was like,
not for sale, Yeah, that's mine. But yeah, but I
read that it was on an apron. I didn't know
what that meant. So that is just wild. And also
again like so important what you said of like your mind,
the way your minds have to grow and bend, and
the creatvity that comes from that. And also I think

(45:02):
that we need that, our world obviously needs that. There's
a lot of things that we've been doing that are working.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
For sure, And even the art world, if you think
about how challenging it is for a lot of artists
to make a living making art, Like, I don't think
that it's just happenstance that I'm one of the artists
that's found a way to do that. And I think
a lot of that is because I had to figure
out a lot of the problem solving, yeah, before I
even got into making art consistently and so so Yeah,

(45:31):
I mean I think even even things like education, where
you think about how, outside of teaching the specific skills
of whatever trade or discipline you're doing, how do you
turn that into the life that you want it to be.
I think there are a lot of lessons in there
about that.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
It's like, if you can barter your art, you know,
sell trade in prison, then I can definitely do something
out there in the world. I can make a job
out of this.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Yeah. So something that is coming up as you're talking
that I really want to get your perspective on. I
tread very lightly in a lot of situations that aren't
my own, around any kind of trauma or misfortune, using
that to set somebody up for gratitude because sometimes it
can be just not the right thing. And hearing you

(46:25):
say some of this, like just this came up when
you said, like now being one of the few artists
that are able to really make a living out of
doing this, like part of that came from learning how
to do that in prison. When you look at this experience,
I want to know, like, is this something that you're
grateful for? Is it something that you're like, no, fuck that,

(46:46):
but I had to do it because the fifteen years.
I don't know if we made that clear. The fifteen
years was over on was April eleventh. When you look
back on the fifteen years, are you like, oh, I'm
glad that happened, or what comes up for you?

Speaker 2 (47:00):
I'm extremely grateful for it. I do not think that
everything is just that you're grateful for. I don't think
that that you know that. I don't think that it
excuses the system or that it means that this is
what should happen to people. But in my specific situation,
I don't think that I would be where I am
today without that, in the same way that would Black

(47:24):
Americans be where they are today without slavery. When that
doesn't mean slavery was good, or that there's any like
yay slave owners. It's just basically that there's an amount
of pressure that you can put on someone that can,
you know, kind of crumble them, or it can also
strengthen them. And I do think that this whole experience
has I've learned a lot from it. I don't think

(47:45):
that this is the way that we should try to
usher people into the world, because I know that if
everything didn't happen just right for me, the story isn't
what it is today.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Well, your story is not everybody's story.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
And it's it's and it's unfortunately it's not most people. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Yeah, And what I say a lot of times about
things that whether they're big or small, things that happened
that in the moment you're like, what the fuck, and
then later you find gratitude is I'm grateful for where
this has brought me. But it didn't have to happen
that way. It could have happened a different way, or
I wish it could have happened a different way. And
so you saying like, yeah, I'm able to sell my

(48:24):
art and I'm able and I've learned all these things
and had these experiences that have shaped who I am.
But we shouldn't keep ushering this as the way to
get people here. There has to be a better way.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Yeah, there does. And in pain and suffering as universal.
If you're born, you're going to go through it, So
we don't need to intentionally, yeah, put our society through things.
Just live. It's gonna, it's gonna happen. You know, it
happens to us as kids, it happens to us as adults.
It happens through all sorts of in some of these

(48:56):
really drastic examples like prison being institutionalized, slavery. You know,
you look at a Holocaust survivor, like any any of
the And I'm not putting those all is equal because
they're one hundred percent they're not. But anything that someone
goes through that is extra kind of extraordinary that society
had a part in putting that there. It doesn't have

(49:19):
to it doesn't have to be that they We're gonna
have to persevere if we're born.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
Like life is traumatic, any life, it's going to hit you. Yeah,
you said, when you entered into prison, there was this depression,
but you couldn't really sit in it because you had
to survive this goes into like when did you like
pick up a pen or a pencil, or at what
point does that depression and survival turn into this is
moving me into a place that I'm that there can

(49:48):
be light in, Like where does that lift?

Speaker 2 (49:50):
I'd say it's probably about six months in or so.
And for the first six months or so, the bright
parts of my week, we're talking to Tear on the
phone and they you know, in the afternoons and sometimes
in the morning and afternoon, and then we would visit
on the weekends and outside of that, you know, I
would do my job, but I would I would get
back to the unit and God sleep as much as

(50:12):
I possibly could, just to try to sleep the time away.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
It's not a hard thing for him to do. Yes,
I don't love sleeping.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
I'm an easy sleeper. And I think, you know, to
highlight one of the well, the whole community that I
was there with, because I mean, like, you're not there
in isolation. You're there with a community of other people
going through the same or a similar experience. And a
guy banged on my bunk one day and said, you
can't sleep your time away six And now they called
me six nine. I'm around six ' nine, So six

(50:40):
was like my nickname.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
In there, and so everybody has a nickname.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
Everybody has Yeah, nobody goes by they're there their birth name,
government name or whatever. But but so he banged on
my bunk and he said, can't sleep that time away,
and like that was him kind of urging me to
come out of the come out of myself, get involved
in the world, and quit feeling sorry for myself. Like
that was his way of saying, like, this is where
you're going to be for a while. You live here now,

(51:04):
so come on out here and live. And I'm really
grateful for that group of guys that you know consistently
did that because we had to do that for each
other all the time. There was always somebody who you
had to pick up and be like, man, I know,
I know this love one passed away, but man, hey,
you know we still got to live. I know, your
child's mother stopped bringing your child to visit you anymore,

(51:25):
but you know, hey, we got to live. Like there
there was consistently something happening that that you had to
pick each other up. And that's something that I don't
think people are aware of how much of that happens there,
which is real, and that was the time that I
kind of got moving.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Yeah, that's cool to hear that. I feel from from
what I have heard, And again I'm getting most of
my information from the media or a movie. I have
a family member that was in prison for I want
to say, like five years. I've already enlightened because he
had a job. But I thought he chose the job,
and I thought he did that because like I thought
that was a pretty what she got for like being whatever obedient.

(52:04):
I didn't know that was something that he was forced
to do and that he didn't get to pick it. Anyway.
Most of the things you hear about are people getting
in fights, not bringing people together and lifting them up.
And so this is important because I mean I haven't
personally listened to any other podcasts like this, and so
it's important, I think, to get that perspective of like, yeah,

(52:26):
that might be happening, but those people are also the
people that were able to lift me out of the
space that would have not been good for me.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
So then what did you do? Did you just say,
like give me a pencil, like, well, you.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Know, I did. I started doing some sketching and It
wasn't like a big decision. It was more just I'm
just going to kind of sketch a little bit. And
I had, like, I had some headphones, so I'd listen
to music and sketch. I'd go to the gym, play basketball,
lift weights, and then come back and sketch a little bit.
And few of the other guys I was in the

(53:03):
unit with asked me to do birthday cards and portraits
for them and stuff they could send home. So I
started kind of bartering my sketches for a little bit
extra food or toothpaste or soap or whatever the stuff
is that I needed. And then after i'd been doing
that for a while, I started just sketching more of
my environment because that's what I do anyway, Like my

(53:24):
sketchbook is sitting here with me today. If I didn't
have a microphone in my hand, I would have already
been sketching the room like that's just kind of that's
sort of my natural defaults. And so the sketches of
the environment turned it into the pieces that are in
the show now, because I ended up bringing some of
those pieces home with me, And yeah, I think that's
how a lot of things work. It's not a decision

(53:46):
that this thing is gonna be therapeutic or this thing
is gonna be a savior for my life. As much
as you know, paying attention to these are the things
that feel good when I'm doing them. This is what
I would do if money wasn't involved, or if stage
wasn't involved, or whatever. And following those things, because yeah,
there really wasn't a big light bulb moment. There was

(54:10):
just paying attention to it feels good when I do
this thing.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
Can you talk to us about because there's the two
I'm pulling them up now so I can look at them.
Why I am speaking to you? Imagine these are the
main pieces in your show, corrected and then the other one,
the blackbird. I want you to describe what those pieces
are to the people listening, since they can't see them,
but you can see them if you want to. Can

(54:36):
you describe those because that's kind of as you were
telling that story. I don't know if this is true,
but I imagine that's you moving from one place to
the other. What you just were saying, like he was like, hey,
you can't sleep your time away And then one of
these pictures of paintings is of you with is there
a sketchbook in your hand?

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Well, that's a letter in my hands, okay, so yeah, yeah,
But it's a painting of me in the cell, and
that I did kind of a recreate of what my
cell looked like, and I painted that in twenty twenty.
There's a small sketch that I can share, but it's
also in the catalog and it's in the show. But
there's a small sketch that actually painted while I was inside.

(55:14):
But this big piece here was a memory of what
my cell looked like. And as if someone was standing
at the front door. The view is you looking in
at me while I'm sitting on my bunk in my cell,
you know, reading a letter or just opening a letter,
and then kind of looking up to see to see
the person that's just walked in. And originally when I

(55:36):
made it, my hope was just that people would feel
what it was like to be in a cell with
someone who's incarcerated. I mean it's eight by eight feet,
so it's life size. The room is life size. I'm
life size, and the painting and that's kind of what
I was What I was going for was people to
feel like they were having that interaction and then corrected.

(55:58):
Is me in my studio and I'm just kind of
sitting on a recliner. I've got a small canvas in
my hands and a paint brush, and I'm just sort
of also looking, yeah, kind of looking out on whoever
might be in my studio with me.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
That's at home.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Now, that's at home.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Okay. Is that one also life size?

Speaker 2 (56:18):
No, that's a little smaller. That's about five or four feet.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
Okay, what's life size for me?

Speaker 2 (56:24):
Exactly? Exactly?

Speaker 1 (56:27):
So what's the relationship for you within those two Because
I looking at them feel two different things. I imagine
that is part of the experience.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Yeah, I mean, I definitely feel two different experiences, even
though I feel like in some ways I was in
a similar place by the time I wrote This Blackbird,
like the end of This Black Bird reads, so for now,
I guess I'm free. My little black friend had visits
me every morning every day, and that's the bird that

(56:58):
would come to light in my window every day while
I was in prison, and so I had kind of
gotten to the point where I felt like, even though
I'm here, through artwork, through spirit, through my relationships, I'm free.
Even though I'm here now. That was internal, and I think,

(57:18):
like correct it is in a little bit more of
an external explanation of this is kind of where I
knew I was going to be, or where I trusted
that I would be, or or I kind of already was.
It's like I was sort of living in that future
of making art work and being home and being free.
But it's a really challenging thing for people that are

(57:42):
in because even when we believe that that's who we
are and who we will be, there are not too
many people that believe it until you're sitting there, you know,
like tears. One of the people that believed it, your parents,
might your grandparents. There's this small core of people that
are like, yeah, we know you really are, but until
you're actually sitting there, it's not many. So so yeah,

(58:05):
So that's why those pieces are kind of in conversation.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
What I'm gathering from you, and we talked about this
before before we started recording, is that you found two
resources while you're in prison to move you through and
to be able to give you hope, to see a
future that you wanted to be a part of and
that made you want to keep moving. You used those
while you were in prison. You also use those when

(58:35):
you were out of the place that you wanted to
get out of. So can you speak to that because
a lot of times I have this experience. I've done
this myself, and I've seen a lot in clients. We
see it very often. And when Terry and I worked
in treatment, where people whether it's meditation, art, yoga, walks,
being in nature, horses, whatever it is, therapy, journaling, journaling, anything,

(58:59):
whatever it is, they just stop because they no longer
need those things anymore because they got them out of
the woods. So talk to me about what kept you painting.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
I mean, it was pretty simple. It was how It's
how it made me feel when I realized that it
was a path to liberation while I was there, while
I was in and I had spent enough time with
like challenging things at home that to know that it
wasn't over. You know, it's like you don't you don't
get out of whatever the situation is, and in automatically

(59:30):
everything is fixed. And I think that's something that anybody
that whenever I talk to other you know, people that
are coming out of incarceration, it's like stuff's gonna pop up,
like you know, it's like there'll be there'll be a
small window where everything just feels great, but things are
gonna pop up. And so that's really why I kept
on making work. I kept on making artwork because I
knew that it was for wantedy, that it was good

(59:53):
for me, and that I loved doing it. I think
a big part is that I love doing it. So
it's like paying attention to how things make you feel
is extremely important, and you know, I really enjoyed it,
and I did have ambitions of doing it for a career,
but I wasn't going to not do it just because
it wasn't going to turn into a career. It was
like whether it's going to turn into a career or not.

(01:00:14):
I was going to make work pretty much daily because
it made me feel good. There were things I needed
to say, there were things I needed to get out,
and as I made it consistently, it gradually turned into
what I did for a living. But that was a
number of years. That was probably twenty thirteen till really
twenty twenty when art was the full time. But in

(01:00:35):
twenty fifteen I started working in the gallery, so I
was working amongst art. But yeah, there was definitely. My
first job was a dishwasher. I was a server for
a good while. I did car detailing, and all of
the things that I were doing that I was doing
for money were all really to maintain making artwork consistently

(01:00:58):
and maintain the rest of my life. I mean this rent,
you know, getting married, all the stuff that I wanted
to do, But there was there was never kind of
a release of that reality that I need to keep
making artwork. And that's up until today. If I've got
a good buddy who does a lot with investments in
real estate and whatnot, and he said, I mean, but

(01:01:19):
what if you just had a billion dollars, you think
you would? I was like, yeah, I'd be painting tomorrow.
I might be painting in a crazy huge space and
doing real weird stuff like I wouldn't be thinking about
a show. Yeah, but I'd be painting for sure. I
don't have any doubt. And so see, I think that's
that's kind of the thing, is like figuring out the

(01:01:40):
thing that if you really enjoy doing something and it
helps get you through anything, then then absolutely keep doing
it and you'll be paid. You'll be paid in full,
and whether it's emotionally, spiritually, financially, you will be paid
if you continue to do what you love doing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
What would you say to buddy who has a desire
to do something like that, whether it's painting or I
don't know, I want to open a soap store, like whatever.
It is, Like somebody has a dream, what would you
say to somebody who has that immediate thought of like, well,

(01:02:18):
that's too harder, I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
That's a part of it, you know, that's that's a
part of a dream, you know, if it was going
to the gas station and then everybody yeah, yeah, So,
I mean I have it every single time I do anything.
Like when I was about to have an exhibit about
my fifteen year prison sent It's like my first thought was, damn, man,
that's a lot do I really want? You know, it's
a lot of pieces, they're way bigger. Who's gonna buy

(01:02:43):
I mean, who's gonna I painted an eight by eight
foot painting of me in a prison cell. It's like
I obviously wasn't thinking about who's gonna buy this? Or
is it? You know? It's like so, but when when
the seed is planted, like if it lights you up,
you know, then go and start put those incremental steps,
like if it's a soap store.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
You know good, I think that's good.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
I mean, that's a good thing. It's like, you know, produce,
produce some soap, put it online, sell to friends and family,
and let it grow until it's you know, until it
is what and and don't stop doing it because it
doesn't take off in the time that you think it
should take off. And you know, my I've got hundreds
of paintings in my house and people don't. People see

(01:03:27):
the work in the show and they're like, oh, look,
you sold a lot of artwork. And it's like, I've
got a lot of artwork that's never that hasn't sold
at this point. You know it might sell later, but
it may not. And continue to do whatever the thing
is regardless of the immediate payoff. Pretty much guarantees the payoff.
It's like, yeah, that's it's it's it's a it's kind

(01:03:49):
of a paradoxical thing, like we're not chasing any of
it to get to any specific destination. We're doing it
because you decided to do it, and something up in
you about making this thing, and you know, if you
stay true to that, you're going to find the reward,
and the reward may not even be You might have
started the soap store and ended up with a hygienic

(01:04:12):
yoga studio or something. It's like you never know what,
Like the tern may not even be the thing that
you set out for it to do. But if you
don't follow that theory, you'll never You'll never know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
Yeah, which goes back into you saying like I paid
attention to what I was feeling when I was doing it,
Like I kept painting because it kept feeling good for sure. Well,
I love that, And I think there's a I mean,
I'm thinking of their specific person that was asking me
about wanted to take this risk with a career. But
if I go and take that risk, then what's going

(01:04:42):
to happen over here? And kind of similar You don't
have to like I think the saying is like throw
the baby out with the bathwater. You don't have to
like not have a job while you're working on this thing,
or you don't have to like not It doesn't have
to be all or nothing. And it's what you're saying
is I did what I needed to do to be
able to keep painting and then eventually painting became the
thing I was doing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Yeah, and then there may be that time where you
have to trust where it's like you've been at this
job for five years and you've saved some money and
you decide I'm going to leave and trust the painting's
gonna because there will be that time at some point
where it's like I really can't keep on chasing both things.
So I do think that the decision can come. I

(01:05:22):
personally wouldn't have gotten out and said I'm a full
time artist from the day that I get out. No,
I got out and got a job, you know, like that,
that's kind of what I had to do for Yeah,
for the period of time that I had to do it,
and when it was time that when it was time
to shift, that was really clear, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Like so I think I kind of brushed over this
and I kind of want to go back to it.
Just in the way of closing a lot of this,
I want to know from both of you because we
talked about what it was like when you met, and
then also what it was like when you then had
to go into prison, What was it like when you
got out on parole, and then also what was it

(01:06:01):
like on April eleventh. Both of those things sound like different,
totally different experiences, but also very similar.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
So coming home so picking him up was I mean,
like a very liberating feeling. It was just like a
huge release, relief, outbreath, just feeling like, oh, thank god,
we're finally done with that part, because it got really hard,
especially like in the last year. He had a parole

(01:06:31):
opportunity two years in that got denied and so we
had to just say, buckle down, wait till the next one,
do it, you know, do it again. So it was
even sweeter, I think, having had that denial and just
you know, then it's beginning life and trying to adjust
and enjoying and struggling and figuring out and basking and

(01:06:53):
all the all the freedoms that you haven't had, and
then life is just life and you do that. We
did that. So he came home in twenty thirteen, and
he got this April eleventh final no more parole, no
more sentence ended in April twenty twenty three, So that's

(01:07:13):
the ten years of us living in the sort of
in between on the other side of prison and not
done with the sentence, which also really ultimately means there
are a lot of rules he has to follow, things
he has to do, and it means that at any moment,
something could happen and he could go and have to

(01:07:33):
finish that sentence. On the inside. He's still property of
the Department of Corrections. On parole. You're serving your sentence
on parole rather than in prison. So that's just a
thing that I think doesn't always have the same concept
because he's just out here seemingly living life like the
rest of us. So we're living in that in between

(01:07:55):
for ten years, hoping that doesn't happen, and living our
lives as normal otherwise, and you know, that becomes a
whole skill set in itself. But that is important to
say because I think it really does justice to the
day of April eleventh, when you don't have to do
any of that anymore. We don't have to consider that

(01:08:20):
there's this sentence hanging over his head that he still
has to abide by, he still has to answer to
the state for or they may be able to put
him back in a jail cell to finish it. That
all is lifted for us on April eleventh, and I
think it's been not on that day process emotionally and mentally,

(01:08:41):
it kind of experiencing that it's been leading up to
it for months, leading up to it, feeling it, moving
through it, and it's still going to be an evolving
process of not quite knowing how to wrap my head
around not being in that context of life anymore. I'm

(01:09:02):
still kind of like, I don't know what that feels
like yet. It's definitely like we've had little moments of
like wow, like wow, we're here. Wow, we've made it,
similar to the day you're out relief, out breath, and
it's just something that I think takes time to really
adapt into a new reality that you were in for

(01:09:23):
so long. So it feels in a lot of ways
for me, like more to be revealed on what this
life feels like for us.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
Yeah, because it's been ten days. Okay, what about you?

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Yeah, I would say the same. I think the only
thing that I would add to that was the day
that I got home, my grandmother passed away and Tarah
picked me up, and so those were kind of the
first thing. The first thing that Sarah told me was
she didn't make it. And so so me and my
grandmother really really close and have you know, she lives
in the house with me, my whole life, my whole youth,
my mom's side being from Trinidad, my grandmother when they

(01:09:57):
migrated it over and she brought my mom. Once my
mom was an adult, my grandmother kind of roles reversed.
My grandmother lived with my mom and my dad instead
of my mom living with her of course. So I mean,
so I think that kind of sort of framed the
beginning in a lot of ways. Even though I was
home and we were together, we also had this really

(01:10:18):
hard thing to face immediately, and all of the just
the challenges and guilt and of whatnot of not being
around for someone's last days years, and then the April
eleventh side of it has been, I mean, it's been
pretty incredible. It's also been Yeah, it's been something that
we've been able to celebrate together. I mean, I don't

(01:10:40):
think that there's I mean, I think as challenging as
it has been for you know, on my side of
it to push through this, I think it is probably
more challenging for two people to get through what we've
gotten through together and actually been through this entire sentence together.
So that's been really special. And I think, just to

(01:11:03):
echo what Tara said, is. It definitely is not linear.
And I think the best example, even though it's not
like a superhumanizing example, is if something's been in a
box for a long long time, how long after the
box is removed does the thing know it's out of
the box. And so I think that's kind of been

(01:11:23):
my experience with it. I mean, I'm not like at
ease about law enforcement. I'm not at ease about my
ability to move around the world truly freely. I don't
have enough evidence of that side of it yet. When
I was twenty eight when this thing started, I'm forty two. Now,
that's a big chunk of adulthood to not feel free.

(01:11:47):
So yeah, so I don't think feeling free is that
close in the legal system since. But as far as
like the artwork and the things that have shown up
just through life that already kind of found that freedom before,
I think that's continuing to grow and I trust that
the rest will follow.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
I would only add as as like on the emotional
side of things, because I'm with therapists and I'm always
thinking about that, I've realized that in this this time,
like approaching and experiencing the ending of the sentence for me,
in a lot of ways. It's felt actually like a
lot of grieving has come up, and grieving the time

(01:12:28):
that he was gone in a way that I haven't
grieving all of the restraints and the losses and the
challenges of what this whole sentence has meant. Sentence has
meant for him and for both of us, And you know,
I just was really aware of the true thing of
you know, I'll talk about this with clients a lot,

(01:12:50):
that you can't really process, you can't process the trauma
while you're still in it, and that this moment has
reflected that back to me in a very real way
that there's a lot of feelings I haven't yet been
able to feel literally because I've still had to be
surviving this thing. So grieving has been a big part

(01:13:11):
of what approaching the end has meant, which feels kind
of counterintuitive. It feels like it would be celebratory, and
we definitely have made space for those moments and invite
that in and just for me on it, like, in
a very honest way, it feels important to name that that, yeah,
it actually didn't come with just a big old like yay.

(01:13:33):
It has come with a lot of things that have
been sitting around kind of waiting for the moment to
feel like they can actually let themselves come out, because
my body is like, now we're really done, so all right,
let's let's feel what this felt like.

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):
Two things stuck out to me when you said I
think it was you Andmr that said twenty eight. I
sawed this when I was twenty eight. I don't think
I've thought about that this whole time, because you're not
sitting here as a twenty eight year old like you
were twenty eight when you were in that cell and
that guy said you can't sleep, your your time away,
and then pairing that with you saying like, we're not

(01:14:10):
saying yay, Well yeah, that makes sense now hearing you
say that that it's not like yay, this thing is.
We're not we're celebrating maybe that I that this is over,
but there's also as I celebrate that, there's all of
these feelings around the fact that that even was a
thing and that happened, Especially because I'm now thinking of

(01:14:30):
you as a twenty eight year old. I'm not that
much older than that, but it still feels like a child.

Speaker 3 (01:14:35):
Yeah, and I did twenty two and now I'm thirty five.

Speaker 2 (01:14:38):
Yeah, you look twenty eight.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
You know I look twenty eight or two looks twenty eight. Okay, well,
thank you, thank you for being so open, both of you,
and we already know Tara doesn't want to way to
find her, but you do. So where can people find
you your art, whether they're in Nashville or not.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
Yeah, well, this exhibit is at Elephant Gallery and I
will share a link to the full catalog and that's
got the price list and all the images. And also
Omaribooker dot com is my website and Amari Booker at
Instagram's kind of the easiest way to just to keep
up with what's going on and shoot me a message.
I'm in Nashville for a good bit of a year

(01:15:24):
and I'm in LA for about two or three months
out of the year also, so so yeah, those are
kinds of things that are going on, but please, yeah,
reach out. Yeah we got art for you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
Yeah, we'll put all of that in the show notes.
We'll have the links to everything, so whether you're here
or not, you can see because I think also, I'm
so glad I was able to I wish it could
have actually gone today, but it was. It makes such
a different scene this as you're talking about it, because,
like you said, this is literally your story in art.
Your art for sure.

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Finding Liberation From Prison Through Art with Tara and Omari Booker

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