December 23, 2024 • 34 mins
This week, Kat has Grammy nominated singer/songwriter JP Saxe on the show to talk about relationships from a slightly different perspective. Can love still be meaningful after a something ends? According to JP... it most definitely can. He shares with us what he has learned about love after having two different experiences in how his own relationships have ended. And the best news . . . Kat's interview with JP is two parts so stay tuned for MORE from JP next week!
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Produced by: @HoustonTilley
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
It's a real guest.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
If we don't know something about ourselves at this point
in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
If you can die before you die, then you can
really live.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
There's a wisdom at death's door.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know
what to do because there was no internet. I don't know, man,
I'm like, I feel like everything is hard.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first
and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting
you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become
more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
The world around you.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Welcome to You Need Therapy, Hi, guys, and welcome to
You Need Therapy Podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
My name is Kat, and I am the host.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Here.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Quick reminder up top that although this is a podcast
about mental health, and although I am a licensed therapist,
this podcast does not serve as a replacement or a
substitute for actual mental health services. However, we do hope
that these conversations help you on whatever journey you are on.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
In some way.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Now for the good stuff. I am so excited about
our guest today. His name is Jp Sachs, and if
you are not familiar with him, then I can't wait
for you to get familiar with him, because he's awesome
in multiple different ways. I am a big fan of
his music, and that actually led me to wanting him
(01:47):
to come be a guest on the show because of
some of the things he sings and writes about. I'm like,
this guy has some things to say, and I have
some questions and I want to learn more. And I
just assumed he would have a cool perspective, of which
I was right. And I'm just so super grateful that
he accepted and was willing to come and chat with
a random person he doesn't know that lives across the country.
(02:10):
So you could google Jp and you can see his accomplishments.
You can see that he is a Grammy nominated singer songwriter.
He is very successful in what he does. But what
you can't google as easily. You know, you might read
this in some interviews or something like that, but well,
you can't google as easily is the essence of who
he is and the kind of human he is. And
(02:31):
he is a pretty cool human and you will see
that and hear that and feel that as you listen
to this conversation. I was unsure on how the conversation
would go, because you know, I'd never met him before.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I had a note mood he would be in. I
don't know if he really wanted to have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
You never know, and I was so pleasantly surprised by
how he showed up and what he showed up with.
We talk about relationships, we talk about feelings, We talked
about masculinity, We talked about the difference between leaving and
being left in the different ways we try to get
over heartbreak. And he just had some really cool perspectives.
(03:08):
He says some things that you are going to want
to write down and you're going to want to journal about,
and you're gonna want to marinate over them because he offers,
like I said, a really cool perspective that you don't
hear as much in multiple different areas of life that
I believe, I think is going to be really like
priceless and special for a lot of you guys. So
the other thing is because I am who I am,
(03:30):
This conversation went over about forty minutes, and I'm not
mad about that because it was fruitful. And because of that,
instead of chiseling it down and cutting things out, I
decided let's just keep it all and split it into
two parts. So this week you will hear part one,
and then I'm going to keep you on your toes
(03:52):
because I'm going to keep you excited for next week's episode,
and then next Monday we'll put part two out. Also
want to let you guys know that JP is releasing
a new song. So he just released a new song
called when You Think Of Me, and we talk about
that song and the meaning behind it in this conversation
and guys, this song is so good, so like, go download.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
It right now.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
But he's releasing another new song on November eleventh, called
The Good Parts and it should be available to pre
save by the time you were listening to this, which
is really exciting, So go follow him on Instagram at
JP Sacks. I'll put a link in the bio for
you guys. And if you guys have not heard his
music before, you're welcome, because this is going to be
(04:33):
your new obsession. And if you have heard of him
before or you are a fan, get excited because there's
some new music continuing to come. Now, I'm not going
to keep you waiting any longer. Well, I kind of
him because I'm cutting this conversation to two parts. But
for this part of the conversation, I'm not going to
keep you any longer. So here is my conversation with
JP Sacks. Do you enjoy conversations with strangers?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yes, you do?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Okay? Would you say you're introverted or extroverted?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So?
Speaker 4 (05:03):
I thought I was an introvert for a really long time,
and it's potential it's possible that I was, but I'm
definitely not now, Okay. I think I'm pretty like pretty
far on the extrovert spectrum of things.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Do are you familiar with the enneagram?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
What are the ones with the numbers or the numbers?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
The numbers the numbers, I'm a two?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Okay, which ones too? Are the helper?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah? That was me?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Okay, I'm a seven. So most people think that because
seven is the enthusiasts. Most people think that I'm an
extrovert because I do tend to have a lot of
energy and I can like talk to a wall. But
I actually am really introverted and like if I got
to choose, like I said, on any given night, I
would like to be in bed. I like being social,
but there's a certain type of work that comes with it.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
So it's just very interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Okay, I want to get into some things and we'll
just see where it goes. I don't know what they
tell you and you agree to do these things, but
I am a therapist.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I love in Nashville.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Cool.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, so I start.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
I was about to make a joke about how I
only hear about the enneagrams when I go to Nashville.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Well, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a
lot of sense. It's like the Hub and I love
the inteagram. I think it's a great tool.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
But in Nashville sometimes you're like, oh, okay, I'm done
with this conversation. And I don't know how many interviews
and podcasts you really like do in general. But I
don't also know how many you do that are mental
health focused. So I want to talk about your music
because I know who you are, because I love your music,
and that's one of the reasons I went to your
(06:39):
Is it like a single release show, the one that
you did in Nashville.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I loved there yeah, I was at that show.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
That's fine.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, and the real I got the idea to ask
you to be on the podcast because you saying, uh,
well want all of your musics. Is there's little like
weaves of just like little things. I'm like, he wants
a therapy, he has a therapist. He learned that there.
He likes mental health. But I think it was.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
When you say explain you and you know the opening
life which.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I've I talked shit about that therapist.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
But common misunderstanding in that song is the therapist mentioned
and explain to you was not the therapist I landed on.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
That's interesting in that song is that like a you
don't like that therapist.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Well, so about four years ago I decided that I
wanted to have a go to therapist. I had gone
on and off throughout my life, but only in like
times of dire need. I had never like had a
consistent person who I had to establishrapport with. So yes,
this is twenty eighteen. I decided I was I was
(07:41):
going to find my go to therapist, and I went
to seven before I found one that I really liked.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Okay, you have got to talk about that process, because
that is something I think comes up a lot where
people think I go to a first therapist and I
have to stick with them, or this therapist sucks.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
I'm with therapy, right.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I was adamant that I was going to have a
therapist in my life that knew me, that I respected,
and that I was actually going to listen to and
walk away with things that were improving, you know, my
process of analyzing my life. So that was an interesting
couple months because I was like twice a week going
to different therapists trying to find the right one. And
(08:22):
the therapist that I mentioned in Explain You, the first
line of that song for your listeners and I have
not heard it is my therapist called you a learning
experience one eighty an hour. That's all that he mentions.
Missing you is getting fucking expensive because I dropped a
lot of money on therapy that month.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, I think is a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, I mean pretty standard out here.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, I assume it's a little bit higher than Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
So yeah, I think that was therapist number four who
had I had given him this whole story about what
I was trying to figure out about myself and you know,
understanding myself separate from someone who I had really rooted
my identity and being beside, and he just goes, what
it sounds like, It sounds like she was a learning
experience and then just kind of looks at me and
(09:06):
I thought that that can't be. That can't be how
this is supposed to go. And I thought it was
really funny. So I did not see that therapist again.
But that's who I'm talking about in that song.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I'm so glad I have that, like that knowledge now
because I now hear that song differently because I can
see how somebody might say that. But if that's the
only feedback you're getting from a therapist, you're like, well, okay,
what is the learning experience?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I need more?
Speaker 1 (09:31):
What part of you then was like, I have to
keep doing this work to find this person, And how
did you know when you found the right person?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
So I think obviously a great therapist can meet someone
one time, yeah, and completely unravel everything about their life
and choices, and it's amazing when that happens. I love
listening to Esther Perel's podcast because I like hearing her
do that. But I also just think, if I need
to spend the first thirty minutes of a session explaining
the foundations at which I've arrived at this complicated traumatic moment.
(10:05):
I'm not getting nearly as much depth on how to
navigate it as if I've had, you know, fifty sessions.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Under my belt with my current therapist.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
So when I walk in, we just you know, we
can skip the therapy small talk. And she also just
has such a better memory than I do, Like my
memory is just shit, just like really bad. I think
it's it's it's somewhat indicative of a lot of the
things about my life like that are like predicated on
me having such a bad memory that I do things
(10:33):
in order to try and create like try and create
memory or try and you know, establish.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Some sort of like just some sort.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Of immortalized version of things in order to feel like
they've actually happened.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Why journal so obsessively?
Speaker 4 (10:47):
But anyway, she'll say, like, well, you know, last year
in this session, you were talking about blah blah blah blah,
and that feels like it probably relates to you right
now talking to blah blah blah blah. And those are
always like big win moments for my therapist. I think
I'm always deeply impressed.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Well, I think it sends the message because I am
a therapist who also goes to therapy, and so when
my own therapist can like pull some recall out to me.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
I'm like, you listen to me.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
And for a lot of people going to therapy, that's
like sometimes all they need is somebody that actually is
paying attention to them and their story. So I can
see how that, like it's a win for the therapist
because they're like, yeah, okay, I was able to put
that together, and then it's a win for the client
because they're like, oh my gosh, I'm not just like
another one of your people on your schedule, Like you're
(11:37):
paying attention to my story.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, I actually have a question for you about this.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
So you know, because my music, you know, deals with
the emotional elements of being a human, I do get
asked questions often that I feel entirely unqualified for, just
questions that you would ask a therapist, like people, whether
it be about because you know, I write about I
write about love, I write about heartbreak, I write about
green if I write about you know, things that people
(12:02):
often talk to that therapist about. And I used to
I used to be like a little bit glib about it.
You know, I would show supportas like I don't know,
I feel like I would say, like I feel really
unqualified for to answer that question, or you know, people
would be like, your music is like therapy, and I'm like,
that means the world to me, but also.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Like therapy is better, like a real therapy is better
used tod try that.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
But then I sorry, I recognize that it was it
was somewhat inconsiderate of me to be suggesting a two
hundred dollars a week model of help when you know
music is for the most part free, and I was
I was neglecting to incorporate that into my thinking on it.
And it trips me up now because obviously, like I
(12:48):
want to be a proponent of therapy. I think it's
been such a huge part of my life, but it's
pretty inaccessible to most people. How do you navigate trying
to point people towards resources and things that can be
a helpful part of their mental health routines without you know,
running into the problem of a lot of the things
that are so helpful do require you know, a search.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, well, so you're that's a really actually a good
question because you're talking about, like, how do I not
like overstep and start speaking out of my lane, But
how do I not offer nothing?
Speaker 3 (13:21):
And then how do I not offer something that somebody
doesn't have access to right exactly?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
So that's one of the reasons I started this podcast.
Because I am a therapist that works private practice. I
don't take insurance like I have a sliding scale for
a certain number of clients. And at the same time,
I'm like, well, okay, this leaves a lot of people out.
And I have these conversations all day, all the time,
whether they're in my head or with the client about
(13:49):
things like attachment with Like three four years ago, nobody
knew what attachment theory was besides therapists. Now it's more
some people st don't know what it is, but it's
coming more mainstream. But people weren't having conversations about what
actually is the difference between like being sad and actually
being clinically depressed.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
How do I know when how.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Do I find access to a psychiatrist that might be
able to help me and find things that are going
to help me maybe feel like.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
A normal person. What is normal?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
So that's one of the reasons I started this because
a lot of the conversations I have are like building
blocks for what you might actually do with the therapist later.
There's a lot of information, just conversations that generally aren't happening.
But I say this all the time. I work mostly
with eating disorders and body image. I see all kinds
of stuff, but I get a lot of people that
(14:39):
are coming for a very specific reason. I have an
eating disorder. I just I'm going through a breakup, I
moved to a new city, and I feel whatever. I
feel like I'm having a mid life all things. When
it comes down to it, I truly believe what we're
really searching for as a cure to some kind of
loneliness somewhere right, And the vice that might be the
(15:03):
eating disorder or the feeling of like deep sorrow, might
be that lack of connection that we're literally born like
we are born connected to our moms, so we're born
needing connection of some sort.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
So when it comes down to.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
It, we're all looking for a way to feel connected
to somebody to cure this loneliness. We're in, this loneliness eponemic.
Like not even talking about what COVID and all that
did to us. So I say all that because while
therapy is very helpful, I would never send the message
that somebody shouldn't go to therapy. It's not always the answer, right.
(15:39):
It could always be helpful, but it might not always
be necessary. It can help anybody. But also if we're
looking for a cure to loneliness, that is connection. And
so what we can offer people are resources that help
people connect to each other. What we can offer are
ways that we can feel less alone. Speaking of even
(16:07):
your music, something that it does and something that I've
felt through a lot of music is when you hear
a song, like if I hear a song about specifically heartbreak,
right when I hear somebody who had singing a song
that they wrote about heartbreak, what that tells me is
that wait a second, the only way that this person
knows how to write this is because it was in
(16:29):
their head, and the only reason was in their head
because somehow they experienced it, whether they saw it or
they lived it. And so that means that that person
has been through something that I've been through. I'm not
the only one. And if that person is surviving or
thriving whatever, that's giving me some kind of hope and
I'm feeling connected to another human, even if I'm not
like breathing the same air as you. So that's my
(16:52):
long winded way to answer that question is we want
to offer tangible things, but often offering and experience of
understanding is like the biggest thing.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yeah, I mean that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Yeah, when people do come to talk to you about relationships, well,
I'm sure it happens often because we spend most of
our time, at least the people around me spend a
lot of their time thinking about, you know, their relationships.
How often are people coming to you to help navigate
the emotions of being left versus the emotions of coming
to terms with leaving.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
This is so interesting because I just recorded a conversation
about the difference between leaving an abandonment, because they are
very different things, being abandoned and being left.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
But when you're asking me.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
How often there's a difference, Well, I'll give you the
cliff notes version if you want to listen to the
whole episode. It came out on Monday, October twenty fourth,
and it is called The Difference Between Abuse, Abandonment and
Other Things with Tara Booker. But here's kind of a
cliff notes version for you now, so when I'm abandoned,
(17:59):
that means that, like a child is abandoned. If you're abandoned,
you're left and you're not able to survive. Right, So
people can leave me, but I'm still able to like
actually meet my needs.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
So you can abandon a baby. You can abandon a child.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
You can abandon somebody who actually doesn't have resources or
an ability to access resources. Think about any kind of
population that is just like disabled in any way, whether
that's financially, intellectually, like any kind you can abandon those people.
But if I'm a functioning adult, right, So, if my
(18:35):
boyfriend leaves me, if he breaks up with me, if
you're listening, please don't. But if he does that, he
is choosing to walk away and leave a relationship, and
that sucks, and that I'm going to feel like an
immense amount of pain, like an excruciating amount of pain.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
But I'm an.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Adult, and that need that he might be fulfilling in me,
I have ability to access that somewhere else. It might
not feel like that at the time, right because talk
about like your head not being clear in the midst
of heartbreak, your head is not clear, so I might
not be able to actually rationalize that, and it might
feel like he abandoned me.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
It might feel like.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
I can't access my needs or I'm left without a paddle,
but he's leaving me because adults are left. And I
want to hear your thoughts on this. I think that's
really hard to come to terms with because when I'm abandoned,
I'm a victim. Right when I'm left, I just was
he left me. So when I'm abandoned, I'm telling myself
(19:37):
I don't have the ability to meet my needs, so
then I don't have to do the things that get
me to that next place, and those things are really hard,
Like healing heartbreak is one of the hardest things people
will do.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
That was a long cliff notes.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
No, No, I mean that's fascinating. I mean I've been
on both sides of it at the end of relationships. Yeah,
I've been in I would say three.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Series really in my life.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
You know, the first one was seventeen to nineteen, So
I don't identify quite as much with that version of
myself as a relationship two and three. A relationship two
and three like ended, you know, one of them ended
where I was left, and one of them I left
and you know that Jonny Mitchell was on both sides. Now,
it's just like the ambivalence of that song. I found
(20:26):
myself thinking about a lot anyways. I understood things about
being left that I didn't understand until I was the.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
One who left, Like what like that you.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Could still love somebody and also think it was the
right decision to leave a relationship, Like when you know,
when I was twenty four and that relationship ended and
she told me, she was like, I love you and
I will always love you, but I don't think the
lives that were moving into are.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Ones that were meant to be together.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
And yeah, I don't remember exactly what she said because
I was fucking devastated, so I don't remember the exact words,
but something along those lines. But there was a lot
of like I love you and I will always love you,
and I think you're incredible, but I just don't I
don't think we are supposed to stay together or I
don't think we should say together. And at the time
I was I don't. That does not make sense, right,
(21:20):
Like that does not make any sense. And I didn't
really get it until I was in a similar position
where I was feeling immense love for somebody who I
also just didn't wholeheartedly feel a compatibility in a relationship
with moving forward despite immense love.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
And that person might be in the space that you
were in when you were twenty four, Yes, I.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Mean with nuances different Like I was in an opposite
position and they were in the position that I was
once in, and it was it was unbelievably illuminating, fucking awful,
Like I hate. I hated both of those experiences, right,
didn't enjoy any moment of any of that, like really
some of the worst emotions I've ever felt. But I
(22:08):
also learned a lot from them, and there was a
lot of context that I didn't have without having been
on both sides of it.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
You said, like it didn't make any sense, That didn't
make any sense that you love me, but you are
walking away from this relationship, Like how.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Is that possible?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
And I think that speaks into this like larger which
you might have talked about in therapy idea of like
these two coexisting things. They don't have to make sense,
but they can both be there, Like I can be
like deeply sad and feel deeply free at the same time.
Like think about how like with any change, there was
a loss, but oftentimes change is good. And so there's
these two things that they don't make sense. And I
(22:46):
think something that I've experienced in my own life and
I see every day is we as human beings want
everything to make sense. That's that's how we feel like
almost like settled, but so much of the world just doesn't.
And that's like period, like there's no even there's nothing
else to be said to that, like there's no way
(23:06):
to make this make sense because it doesn't. But trying
to make it makes sense isn't going to make it
go away.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
It makes sense in that you know human's going to human.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
And I remember, like so, at like twenty four to
twenty five years old, that relationship has ended. I really
am devastated, and I remember reading a birthday card that
she had written me on my twenty third birthday.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
This this moment made it into a song.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
I have a song called Sad Corny Fuck and in
the last verse, the lyric is, I keep your love
notes in a drawer. I know you don't feel that
way anymore, it just feels nice knowing you really used to.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
So I remember reading that.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
So I find this like twenty third birthday card that
she wrote me, and I don't remember verbatim, but she
says something along lines of like I love you and
I can't wait to love you forever or something like that.
And like, reading that post breakup, there's the inclination to go,
like you liar, Yeah, but I think that would be
inaccurate because she wholeheartedly meant it. In that moment, you
(24:10):
can wholeheartedly love someone and feel as if you would
love them forever. And then do you continue to live
and you continue to grow and you have to reckon
with the potential growing disparity of what you want to
want and what you want, which is a shitty dissonance,
extraordinarily painful for everyone involved. Yeah, and then you reckon
(24:32):
with like how much of responsibility do I have to
the feelings that I once fully felt and no longer do?
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Like do I have to be like literally married glued
to those for the rest of my life? Or am
I allowed to change?
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Right? So I have two questions. I'm going to try
to ask both of them at different times. How did
you get to this place where you're like, oh, I
was that person who maybe I've said I want to
love you for the rest of my life and then
but I don't feel that way anymore. And now it
feels like I have to choose between this thing that
(25:08):
I said one time, or like actual authenticity times or
lots of times, yeah, a million times, or authenticity of
what's going on now, because you're bringing up this hard
point that we evolve and we change, and the world
change and stuff happens and we can't predict it, and
we're not in control of our feelings. Like, if we
(25:28):
were in control of our feelings, I would be a
bajillionaire because I would just teach people how to do that.
But we can't do that, and I'm not a bajillionaire.
So how did you've actually come to terms with I
have to choose this authentic part that this isn't actually
where I am anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
I mean, I think the first thing is empathizing with
how just fucking devastating that is for the other person. Yeah,
because it is truly so awful for someone that you
really wholeheartedly love and who you haven't stopped intending to
continue to love, to watch them kind of slip out
of the emotions that you used to be two feet
(26:07):
in together. So Recognizing that there's a part of you
that is feeling things that would hurt someone you love
is like a very like identity splitting experience, because I
think part of a relationship is the commitment to protecting
the person you love from anything that would hurt them.
So when you recognize there's a part of you that
(26:30):
is threatening to hurt the person you love, my first
instinct was to fucking kill it, just to kit like if,
like I would with anything that tried to hurt her,
like anything like my I hadn't very much internalized like
if any if anything is going to hurt you, I'm
going to hurt it first. And then the thing that
(26:50):
was growing to hurt her was inside of me, and
I hated it, despised it, like neglected, despised it, tried
to destroy it and couldn't, and then grappled with, Okay, well,
maybe like this will go away, Maybe I can ignore it,
maybe like maybe I can find a way to just
(27:12):
deal with this in another way, because I love this
person I'm with, and I hurting them seems like the
worst thing in the world because they are so worthy
of love and so exceptional and intellectually, I still think
everything I always thought about them and how could I
possibly let myself hurt them? And then it doesn't go away,
(27:33):
and that parts of you growing, and then that part
of will you was like you know, like when you
hit something, they hit back, and then you know you're
just in conflict with yourself, and then that takes you
out of a relationship and it just becomes a whole,
a whole mess.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
You know what's really cool is you sharing that and
hearing that perspective. It's a perspective that I don't feel
as amplified that often. I haven't heard it that often,
and I hear in my office and I've probably said
these things a lot of Well, if they knew at
(28:08):
this point, why didn't they end it? If they were
feeling this at this point, why didn't that? And I
like this this description that you're giving us where it's like, well,
because I didn't want to. I didn't I didn't want
that voice to be a real voice. So I wasn't
going to jump ship this. The first time it started
speaking to me, I was trying to change it, and
(28:28):
I couldn't because again, I'm not in I can't control
my feelings. The other question I had is for you
specifically after the first relationship. How did you find I
don't know what the right word is, but almost like
the courage. How do you find the courage to like
(28:51):
jump back in something when you've felt the deepest pain
and you know what a relationship can lead to, Because
you'll hear that all day long. I've definitely said this,
I don't ever want to feel like this again, so
I'm just never going to date anybody again.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Yeah, I met someone miraculous. I just met someone who
was entirely impossible to not love. Yeah, it was unavoidable
in every way. The answer, I don't think it's more
complicated than yeah, Like I didn't necessarily think that. I
you know, there's about a year and a half between
those relationships, and sure, like I had the fear of
that happening again, but there was just such a doubtlessness
(29:29):
about the beginning, you know, there was such a you know,
I meet someone you feel like every imaginable you know,
certainty in the beginnings and excitement of something, and it
just becomes impossible to.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Not love them.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
I freaking love that you said that.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I need to like play this in sessions as well,
because it's again one of those tangible things we want, right,
Like I want a roadmap to heartbreak, So I want
to know like how long am I going to feel
this way?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
And will when?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Will I know when I'm ready to date again? And
I think part of this is a lot of people
think that therapists like have these like hard and fast rules,
and we don't because everybody's different. And so you saying like, oh,
actually I was able to do that because I met
somebody and I just couldn't avoid the feelings I was having,
Like I met somebody who actually made me feel like
(30:20):
it was safe. I met something like That's how it happened.
I didn't do a workbook, I didn't wait a certain
amount of time specifically, I didn't put rules on things.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
I just kind of let myself feel.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Yeah, I mean there were a couple things that I
would say during that period of my life really helped
me get to a place where I was ready to
meet someone like stunningly exceptional and then dive into it.
I would say the two things I did that I
really am grateful to that version of myself for doing
(30:53):
was I started channeling my romantic energy and my desire
for intimacy and my communities rather than dating. So like,
whenever I felt that urge for you know, I'm craving intimacy.
You know, am I going to go on a dating app?
Am I going to go on a first day with
a stranger? Or am I going to try and foster
(31:15):
more intimate relationships with my friends?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
And it was the.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
Best thing I did in that year of my life
was every time I felt that I would just reach
out to, I would reach out to either my best
friends or friends that I had close relationships with and
wanted to be closer with. And my community grew really
meaningfully during that year and a half, like twenty eighteen
twenty nineteen, and going into that relationship now I had
(31:39):
this community so and it's still my community. So I'm
really grateful for that energy, and it's honestly the place
I'm in now. And the other thing that I think
helped for me personally was getting a little bit more
comfortable with leaving space.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
What do you mean by leaving space?
Speaker 4 (31:57):
I think love is one of the best feelings in
the world, so or most people, you would rather have
the wrong version of it than none of it. But
as long as you're occupying the part of you that
has the capacity to love with a version of love
that isn't what you want. There isn't actually the space
for it to be filled by the version that you do.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
And holding on to.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
The idea that what was going to make me happy
was something that I didn't know anything about yet, Like
it wasn't an answer that I had at my fingertips,
Like it wasn't actually in my life. The thing that
was going to make me happy, the thing that I
was going to love, wasn't something that I could come
up with. It wasn't something that I had any semblance
of or any hints on. Like that reminder for myself
was useful. And then just reminding myself that like, yes,
(32:39):
there's a space there, and that space can be uncomfortable,
the space that wants to love someone, that wants to
hold someone. But if I feel it, then there isn't
room for the thing that's supposed to be there if
I keep filling it with the wrong thing.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yes, that was beautiful, And what you're also speaking to
is and maybe I'm wrong that even in that space,
your life can still be good, Like even when you're
living in that uncomfortable space, life can still be good.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Of course, emptiness is just openness from the right angle,
and reminding myself of that I think is one of
the best things I did in.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
That version of Heartbreak.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Yeah, because it can feel like emptiness, especially like when
there's someone who is there.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
For you, you.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Know, for a long period of time, who is that
intimate connection, and then they're not there anymore. Like it
can feel like emptiness, but with the right perspective, it
is also an openness. It's an openness for that space
to be filled by new things that you aren't able
to come up with for yourself, but will show up,
like showing up to a songwriting session with you know,
someone that you really admire and then writing a song
(33:45):
that changes your life, and meeting someone who changes your life.
You know, Like you don't come up with those things.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
It's just kind of you can't force that. Yeah, Yeah,
all right, y'all.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I know you're probably on the edge of your seat
because maybe we just got into talking about something that
you're like, give me more of this. I want to
hear more. Well, good news, there's going to be more
and it's coming next week. This is a two part
episode with JP Sacks, So if you have not already
subscribed or followed this podcast, go ahead and do that
(34:16):
now so you won't miss next week's episode. I will
be back with him next Monday, so go ahead and
do that. And in the meantime, I hope you guys
have the days that you need to have and I
will talk to you soon
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
It's a real guest.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
If we don't know something about ourselves at this point
in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
If you can die before you die, then you can
really live.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
There's a wisdom at death's door.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know
what to do because there was no internet. I don't know, man,
I'm like, I feel like everything is hard.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first
and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting
you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become
more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
The world around you.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Welcome to You Need Therapy, Hi, guys, and welcome to
You Need Therapy Podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
My name is Kat, and I am the host.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Here.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Quick reminder up top that although this is a podcast
about mental health, and although I am a licensed therapist,
this podcast does not serve as a replacement or a
substitute for actual mental health services. However, we do hope
that these conversations help you on whatever journey you are on.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
In some way.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Now for the good stuff. I am so excited about
our guest today. His name is Jp Sachs, and if
you are not familiar with him, then I can't wait
for you to get familiar with him, because he's awesome
in multiple different ways. I am a big fan of
his music, and that actually led me to wanting him
(01:47):
to come be a guest on the show because of
some of the things he sings and writes about. I'm like,
this guy has some things to say, and I have
some questions and I want to learn more. And I
just assumed he would have a cool perspective, of which
I was right. And I'm just so super grateful that
he accepted and was willing to come and chat with
a random person he doesn't know that lives across the country.
(02:10):
So you could google Jp and you can see his accomplishments.
You can see that he is a Grammy nominated singer songwriter.
He is very successful in what he does. But what
you can't google as easily. You know, you might read
this in some interviews or something like that, but well,
you can't google as easily is the essence of who
he is and the kind of human he is. And
(02:31):
he is a pretty cool human and you will see
that and hear that and feel that as you listen
to this conversation. I was unsure on how the conversation
would go, because you know, I'd never met him before.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I had a note mood he would be in. I
don't know if he really wanted to have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
You never know, and I was so pleasantly surprised by
how he showed up and what he showed up with.
We talk about relationships, we talk about feelings, We talked
about masculinity, We talked about the difference between leaving and
being left in the different ways we try to get
over heartbreak. And he just had some really cool perspectives.
(03:08):
He says some things that you are going to want
to write down and you're going to want to journal about,
and you're gonna want to marinate over them because he offers,
like I said, a really cool perspective that you don't
hear as much in multiple different areas of life that
I believe, I think is going to be really like
priceless and special for a lot of you guys. So
the other thing is because I am who I am,
(03:30):
This conversation went over about forty minutes, and I'm not
mad about that because it was fruitful. And because of that,
instead of chiseling it down and cutting things out, I
decided let's just keep it all and split it into
two parts. So this week you will hear part one,
and then I'm going to keep you on your toes
(03:52):
because I'm going to keep you excited for next week's episode,
and then next Monday we'll put part two out. Also
want to let you guys know that JP is releasing
a new song. So he just released a new song
called when You Think Of Me, and we talk about
that song and the meaning behind it in this conversation
and guys, this song is so good, so like, go download.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
It right now.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
But he's releasing another new song on November eleventh, called
The Good Parts and it should be available to pre
save by the time you were listening to this, which
is really exciting, So go follow him on Instagram at
JP Sacks. I'll put a link in the bio for
you guys. And if you guys have not heard his
music before, you're welcome, because this is going to be
(04:33):
your new obsession. And if you have heard of him
before or you are a fan, get excited because there's
some new music continuing to come. Now, I'm not going
to keep you waiting any longer. Well, I kind of
him because I'm cutting this conversation to two parts. But
for this part of the conversation, I'm not going to
keep you any longer. So here is my conversation with
JP Sacks. Do you enjoy conversations with strangers?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yes, you do?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Okay? Would you say you're introverted or extroverted?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So?
Speaker 4 (05:03):
I thought I was an introvert for a really long time,
and it's potential it's possible that I was, but I'm
definitely not now, Okay. I think I'm pretty like pretty
far on the extrovert spectrum of things.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Do are you familiar with the enneagram?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
What are the ones with the numbers or the numbers?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
The numbers the numbers, I'm a two?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Okay, which ones too? Are the helper?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah? That was me?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Okay, I'm a seven. So most people think that because
seven is the enthusiasts. Most people think that I'm an
extrovert because I do tend to have a lot of
energy and I can like talk to a wall. But
I actually am really introverted and like if I got
to choose, like I said, on any given night, I
would like to be in bed. I like being social,
but there's a certain type of work that comes with it.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
So it's just very interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Okay, I want to get into some things and we'll
just see where it goes. I don't know what they
tell you and you agree to do these things, but
I am a therapist.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I love in Nashville.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Cool.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, so I start.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
I was about to make a joke about how I
only hear about the enneagrams when I go to Nashville.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Well, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a
lot of sense. It's like the Hub and I love
the inteagram. I think it's a great tool.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
But in Nashville sometimes you're like, oh, okay, I'm done
with this conversation. And I don't know how many interviews
and podcasts you really like do in general. But I
don't also know how many you do that are mental
health focused. So I want to talk about your music
because I know who you are, because I love your music,
and that's one of the reasons I went to your
(06:39):
Is it like a single release show, the one that
you did in Nashville.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I loved there yeah, I was at that show.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
That's fine.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, and the real I got the idea to ask
you to be on the podcast because you saying, uh,
well want all of your musics. Is there's little like
weaves of just like little things. I'm like, he wants
a therapy, he has a therapist. He learned that there.
He likes mental health. But I think it was.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
When you say explain you and you know the opening
life which.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I've I talked shit about that therapist.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
But common misunderstanding in that song is the therapist mentioned
and explain to you was not the therapist I landed on.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
That's interesting in that song is that like a you
don't like that therapist.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Well, so about four years ago I decided that I
wanted to have a go to therapist. I had gone
on and off throughout my life, but only in like
times of dire need. I had never like had a
consistent person who I had to establishrapport with. So yes,
this is twenty eighteen. I decided I was I was
(07:41):
going to find my go to therapist, and I went
to seven before I found one that I really liked.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Okay, you have got to talk about that process, because
that is something I think comes up a lot where
people think I go to a first therapist and I
have to stick with them, or this therapist sucks.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
I'm with therapy, right.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I was adamant that I was going to have a
therapist in my life that knew me, that I respected,
and that I was actually going to listen to and
walk away with things that were improving, you know, my
process of analyzing my life. So that was an interesting
couple months because I was like twice a week going
to different therapists trying to find the right one. And
(08:22):
the therapist that I mentioned in Explain You, the first
line of that song for your listeners and I have
not heard it is my therapist called you a learning
experience one eighty an hour. That's all that he mentions.
Missing you is getting fucking expensive because I dropped a
lot of money on therapy that month.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, I think is a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, I mean pretty standard out here.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, I assume it's a little bit higher than Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
So yeah, I think that was therapist number four who
had I had given him this whole story about what
I was trying to figure out about myself and you know,
understanding myself separate from someone who I had really rooted
my identity and being beside, and he just goes, what
it sounds like, It sounds like she was a learning
experience and then just kind of looks at me and
(09:06):
I thought that that can't be. That can't be how
this is supposed to go. And I thought it was
really funny. So I did not see that therapist again.
But that's who I'm talking about in that song.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I'm so glad I have that, like that knowledge now
because I now hear that song differently because I can
see how somebody might say that. But if that's the
only feedback you're getting from a therapist, you're like, well, okay,
what is the learning experience?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I need more?
Speaker 1 (09:31):
What part of you then was like, I have to
keep doing this work to find this person, And how
did you know when you found the right person?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
So I think obviously a great therapist can meet someone
one time, yeah, and completely unravel everything about their life
and choices, and it's amazing when that happens. I love
listening to Esther Perel's podcast because I like hearing her
do that. But I also just think, if I need
to spend the first thirty minutes of a session explaining
the foundations at which I've arrived at this complicated traumatic moment.
(10:05):
I'm not getting nearly as much depth on how to
navigate it as if I've had, you know, fifty sessions.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Under my belt with my current therapist.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
So when I walk in, we just you know, we
can skip the therapy small talk. And she also just
has such a better memory than I do, Like my
memory is just shit, just like really bad. I think
it's it's it's somewhat indicative of a lot of the
things about my life like that are like predicated on
me having such a bad memory that I do things
(10:33):
in order to try and create like try and create
memory or try and you know, establish.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Some sort of like just some sort.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Of immortalized version of things in order to feel like
they've actually happened.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Why journal so obsessively?
Speaker 4 (10:47):
But anyway, she'll say, like, well, you know, last year
in this session, you were talking about blah blah blah blah,
and that feels like it probably relates to you right
now talking to blah blah blah blah. And those are
always like big win moments for my therapist. I think
I'm always deeply impressed.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Well, I think it sends the message because I am
a therapist who also goes to therapy, and so when
my own therapist can like pull some recall out to me.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
I'm like, you listen to me.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
And for a lot of people going to therapy, that's
like sometimes all they need is somebody that actually is
paying attention to them and their story. So I can
see how that, like it's a win for the therapist
because they're like, yeah, okay, I was able to put
that together, and then it's a win for the client
because they're like, oh my gosh, I'm not just like
another one of your people on your schedule, Like you're
(11:37):
paying attention to my story.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, I actually have a question for you about this.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
So you know, because my music, you know, deals with
the emotional elements of being a human, I do get
asked questions often that I feel entirely unqualified for, just
questions that you would ask a therapist, like people, whether
it be about because you know, I write about I
write about love, I write about heartbreak, I write about
green if I write about you know, things that people
(12:02):
often talk to that therapist about. And I used to
I used to be like a little bit glib about it.
You know, I would show supportas like I don't know,
I feel like I would say, like I feel really
unqualified for to answer that question, or you know, people
would be like, your music is like therapy, and I'm like,
that means the world to me, but also.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Like therapy is better, like a real therapy is better
used tod try that.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
But then I sorry, I recognize that it was it
was somewhat inconsiderate of me to be suggesting a two
hundred dollars a week model of help when you know
music is for the most part free, and I was
I was neglecting to incorporate that into my thinking on it.
And it trips me up now because obviously, like I
(12:48):
want to be a proponent of therapy. I think it's
been such a huge part of my life, but it's
pretty inaccessible to most people. How do you navigate trying
to point people towards resources and things that can be
a helpful part of their mental health routines without you know,
running into the problem of a lot of the things
that are so helpful do require you know, a search.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, well, so you're that's a really actually a good
question because you're talking about, like, how do I not
like overstep and start speaking out of my lane, But
how do I not offer nothing?
Speaker 3 (13:21):
And then how do I not offer something that somebody
doesn't have access to right exactly?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
So that's one of the reasons I started this podcast.
Because I am a therapist that works private practice. I
don't take insurance like I have a sliding scale for
a certain number of clients. And at the same time,
I'm like, well, okay, this leaves a lot of people out.
And I have these conversations all day, all the time,
whether they're in my head or with the client about
(13:49):
things like attachment with Like three four years ago, nobody
knew what attachment theory was besides therapists. Now it's more
some people st don't know what it is, but it's
coming more mainstream. But people weren't having conversations about what
actually is the difference between like being sad and actually
being clinically depressed.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
How do I know when how.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Do I find access to a psychiatrist that might be
able to help me and find things that are going
to help me maybe feel like.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
A normal person. What is normal?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
So that's one of the reasons I started this because
a lot of the conversations I have are like building
blocks for what you might actually do with the therapist later.
There's a lot of information, just conversations that generally aren't happening.
But I say this all the time. I work mostly
with eating disorders and body image. I see all kinds
of stuff, but I get a lot of people that
(14:39):
are coming for a very specific reason. I have an
eating disorder. I just I'm going through a breakup, I
moved to a new city, and I feel whatever. I
feel like I'm having a mid life all things. When
it comes down to it, I truly believe what we're
really searching for as a cure to some kind of
loneliness somewhere right, And the vice that might be the
(15:03):
eating disorder or the feeling of like deep sorrow, might
be that lack of connection that we're literally born like
we are born connected to our moms, so we're born
needing connection of some sort.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
So when it comes down to.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
It, we're all looking for a way to feel connected
to somebody to cure this loneliness. We're in, this loneliness eponemic.
Like not even talking about what COVID and all that
did to us. So I say all that because while
therapy is very helpful, I would never send the message
that somebody shouldn't go to therapy. It's not always the answer, right.
(15:39):
It could always be helpful, but it might not always
be necessary. It can help anybody. But also if we're
looking for a cure to loneliness, that is connection. And
so what we can offer people are resources that help
people connect to each other. What we can offer are
ways that we can feel less alone. Speaking of even
(16:07):
your music, something that it does and something that I've
felt through a lot of music is when you hear
a song, like if I hear a song about specifically heartbreak,
right when I hear somebody who had singing a song
that they wrote about heartbreak, what that tells me is
that wait a second, the only way that this person
knows how to write this is because it was in
(16:29):
their head, and the only reason was in their head
because somehow they experienced it, whether they saw it or
they lived it. And so that means that that person
has been through something that I've been through. I'm not
the only one. And if that person is surviving or
thriving whatever, that's giving me some kind of hope and
I'm feeling connected to another human, even if I'm not
like breathing the same air as you. So that's my
(16:52):
long winded way to answer that question is we want
to offer tangible things, but often offering and experience of
understanding is like the biggest thing.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yeah, I mean that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Yeah, when people do come to talk to you about relationships, well,
I'm sure it happens often because we spend most of
our time, at least the people around me spend a
lot of their time thinking about, you know, their relationships.
How often are people coming to you to help navigate
the emotions of being left versus the emotions of coming
to terms with leaving.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
This is so interesting because I just recorded a conversation
about the difference between leaving an abandonment, because they are
very different things, being abandoned and being left.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
But when you're asking me.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
How often there's a difference, Well, I'll give you the
cliff notes version if you want to listen to the
whole episode. It came out on Monday, October twenty fourth,
and it is called The Difference Between Abuse, Abandonment and
Other Things with Tara Booker. But here's kind of a
cliff notes version for you now, so when I'm abandoned,
(17:59):
that means that, like a child is abandoned. If you're abandoned,
you're left and you're not able to survive. Right, So
people can leave me, but I'm still able to like
actually meet my needs.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
So you can abandon a baby. You can abandon a child.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
You can abandon somebody who actually doesn't have resources or
an ability to access resources. Think about any kind of
population that is just like disabled in any way, whether
that's financially, intellectually, like any kind you can abandon those people.
But if I'm a functioning adult, right, So, if my
(18:35):
boyfriend leaves me, if he breaks up with me, if
you're listening, please don't. But if he does that, he
is choosing to walk away and leave a relationship, and
that sucks, and that I'm going to feel like an
immense amount of pain, like an excruciating amount of pain.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
But I'm an.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Adult, and that need that he might be fulfilling in me,
I have ability to access that somewhere else. It might
not feel like that at the time, right because talk
about like your head not being clear in the midst
of heartbreak, your head is not clear, so I might
not be able to actually rationalize that, and it might
feel like he abandoned me.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
It might feel like.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
I can't access my needs or I'm left without a paddle,
but he's leaving me because adults are left. And I
want to hear your thoughts on this. I think that's
really hard to come to terms with because when I'm abandoned,
I'm a victim. Right when I'm left, I just was
he left me. So when I'm abandoned, I'm telling myself
(19:37):
I don't have the ability to meet my needs, so
then I don't have to do the things that get
me to that next place, and those things are really hard,
Like healing heartbreak is one of the hardest things people
will do.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
That was a long cliff notes.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
No, No, I mean that's fascinating. I mean I've been
on both sides of it at the end of relationships. Yeah,
I've been in I would say three.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Series really in my life.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
You know, the first one was seventeen to nineteen, So
I don't identify quite as much with that version of
myself as a relationship two and three. A relationship two
and three like ended, you know, one of them ended
where I was left, and one of them I left
and you know that Jonny Mitchell was on both sides. Now,
it's just like the ambivalence of that song. I found
(20:26):
myself thinking about a lot anyways. I understood things about
being left that I didn't understand until I was the.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
One who left, Like what like that you.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Could still love somebody and also think it was the
right decision to leave a relationship, Like when you know,
when I was twenty four and that relationship ended and
she told me, she was like, I love you and
I will always love you, but I don't think the
lives that were moving into are.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Ones that were meant to be together.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
And yeah, I don't remember exactly what she said because
I was fucking devastated, so I don't remember the exact words,
but something along those lines. But there was a lot
of like I love you and I will always love you,
and I think you're incredible, but I just don't I
don't think we are supposed to stay together or I
don't think we should say together. And at the time
I was I don't. That does not make sense, right,
(21:20):
Like that does not make any sense. And I didn't
really get it until I was in a similar position
where I was feeling immense love for somebody who I
also just didn't wholeheartedly feel a compatibility in a relationship
with moving forward despite immense love.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
And that person might be in the space that you
were in when you were twenty four, Yes, I.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Mean with nuances different Like I was in an opposite
position and they were in the position that I was
once in, and it was it was unbelievably illuminating, fucking awful,
Like I hate. I hated both of those experiences, right,
didn't enjoy any moment of any of that, like really
some of the worst emotions I've ever felt. But I
(22:08):
also learned a lot from them, and there was a
lot of context that I didn't have without having been
on both sides of it.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
You said, like it didn't make any sense, That didn't
make any sense that you love me, but you are
walking away from this relationship, Like how.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Is that possible?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
And I think that speaks into this like larger which
you might have talked about in therapy idea of like
these two coexisting things. They don't have to make sense,
but they can both be there, Like I can be
like deeply sad and feel deeply free at the same time.
Like think about how like with any change, there was
a loss, but oftentimes change is good. And so there's
these two things that they don't make sense. And I
(22:46):
think something that I've experienced in my own life and
I see every day is we as human beings want
everything to make sense. That's that's how we feel like
almost like settled, but so much of the world just doesn't.
And that's like period, like there's no even there's nothing
else to be said to that, like there's no way
(23:06):
to make this make sense because it doesn't. But trying
to make it makes sense isn't going to make it
go away.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
It makes sense in that you know human's going to human.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
And I remember, like so, at like twenty four to
twenty five years old, that relationship has ended. I really
am devastated, and I remember reading a birthday card that
she had written me on my twenty third birthday.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
This this moment made it into a song.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
I have a song called Sad Corny Fuck and in
the last verse, the lyric is, I keep your love
notes in a drawer. I know you don't feel that
way anymore, it just feels nice knowing you really used to.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
So I remember reading that.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
So I find this like twenty third birthday card that
she wrote me, and I don't remember verbatim, but she
says something along lines of like I love you and
I can't wait to love you forever or something like that.
And like, reading that post breakup, there's the inclination to go,
like you liar, Yeah, but I think that would be
inaccurate because she wholeheartedly meant it. In that moment, you
(24:10):
can wholeheartedly love someone and feel as if you would
love them forever. And then do you continue to live
and you continue to grow and you have to reckon
with the potential growing disparity of what you want to
want and what you want, which is a shitty dissonance,
extraordinarily painful for everyone involved. Yeah, and then you reckon
(24:32):
with like how much of responsibility do I have to
the feelings that I once fully felt and no longer do?
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Like do I have to be like literally married glued
to those for the rest of my life? Or am
I allowed to change?
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Right? So I have two questions. I'm going to try
to ask both of them at different times. How did
you get to this place where you're like, oh, I
was that person who maybe I've said I want to
love you for the rest of my life and then
but I don't feel that way anymore. And now it
feels like I have to choose between this thing that
(25:08):
I said one time, or like actual authenticity times or
lots of times, yeah, a million times, or authenticity of
what's going on now, because you're bringing up this hard
point that we evolve and we change, and the world
change and stuff happens and we can't predict it, and
we're not in control of our feelings. Like, if we
(25:28):
were in control of our feelings, I would be a
bajillionaire because I would just teach people how to do that.
But we can't do that, and I'm not a bajillionaire.
So how did you've actually come to terms with I
have to choose this authentic part that this isn't actually
where I am anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
I mean, I think the first thing is empathizing with
how just fucking devastating that is for the other person. Yeah,
because it is truly so awful for someone that you
really wholeheartedly love and who you haven't stopped intending to
continue to love, to watch them kind of slip out
of the emotions that you used to be two feet
(26:07):
in together. So Recognizing that there's a part of you
that is feeling things that would hurt someone you love
is like a very like identity splitting experience, because I
think part of a relationship is the commitment to protecting
the person you love from anything that would hurt them.
So when you recognize there's a part of you that
(26:30):
is threatening to hurt the person you love, my first
instinct was to fucking kill it, just to kit like if,
like I would with anything that tried to hurt her,
like anything like my I hadn't very much internalized like
if any if anything is going to hurt you, I'm
going to hurt it first. And then the thing that
(26:50):
was growing to hurt her was inside of me, and
I hated it, despised it, like neglected, despised it, tried
to destroy it and couldn't, and then grappled with, Okay, well,
maybe like this will go away, Maybe I can ignore it,
maybe like maybe I can find a way to just
(27:12):
deal with this in another way, because I love this
person I'm with, and I hurting them seems like the
worst thing in the world because they are so worthy
of love and so exceptional and intellectually, I still think
everything I always thought about them and how could I
possibly let myself hurt them? And then it doesn't go away,
(27:33):
and that parts of you growing, and then that part
of will you was like you know, like when you
hit something, they hit back, and then you know you're
just in conflict with yourself, and then that takes you
out of a relationship and it just becomes a whole,
a whole mess.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
You know what's really cool is you sharing that and
hearing that perspective. It's a perspective that I don't feel
as amplified that often. I haven't heard it that often,
and I hear in my office and I've probably said
these things a lot of Well, if they knew at
(28:08):
this point, why didn't they end it? If they were
feeling this at this point, why didn't that? And I
like this this description that you're giving us where it's like, well,
because I didn't want to. I didn't I didn't want
that voice to be a real voice. So I wasn't
going to jump ship this. The first time it started
speaking to me, I was trying to change it, and
(28:28):
I couldn't because again, I'm not in I can't control
my feelings. The other question I had is for you
specifically after the first relationship. How did you find I
don't know what the right word is, but almost like
the courage. How do you find the courage to like
(28:51):
jump back in something when you've felt the deepest pain
and you know what a relationship can lead to, Because
you'll hear that all day long. I've definitely said this,
I don't ever want to feel like this again, so
I'm just never going to date anybody again.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Yeah, I met someone miraculous. I just met someone who
was entirely impossible to not love. Yeah, it was unavoidable
in every way. The answer, I don't think it's more
complicated than yeah, Like I didn't necessarily think that. I
you know, there's about a year and a half between
those relationships, and sure, like I had the fear of
that happening again, but there was just such a doubtlessness
(29:29):
about the beginning, you know, there was such a you know,
I meet someone you feel like every imaginable you know,
certainty in the beginnings and excitement of something, and it
just becomes impossible to.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Not love them.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
I freaking love that you said that.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I need to like play this in sessions as well,
because it's again one of those tangible things we want, right,
Like I want a roadmap to heartbreak, So I want
to know like how long am I going to feel
this way?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
And will when?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Will I know when I'm ready to date again? And
I think part of this is a lot of people
think that therapists like have these like hard and fast rules,
and we don't because everybody's different. And so you saying like, oh,
actually I was able to do that because I met
somebody and I just couldn't avoid the feelings I was having,
Like I met somebody who actually made me feel like
(30:20):
it was safe. I met something like That's how it happened.
I didn't do a workbook, I didn't wait a certain
amount of time specifically, I didn't put rules on things.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
I just kind of let myself feel.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Yeah, I mean there were a couple things that I
would say during that period of my life really helped
me get to a place where I was ready to
meet someone like stunningly exceptional and then dive into it.
I would say the two things I did that I
really am grateful to that version of myself for doing
(30:53):
was I started channeling my romantic energy and my desire
for intimacy and my communities rather than dating. So like,
whenever I felt that urge for you know, I'm craving intimacy.
You know, am I going to go on a dating app?
Am I going to go on a first day with
a stranger? Or am I going to try and foster
(31:15):
more intimate relationships with my friends?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
And it was the.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
Best thing I did in that year of my life
was every time I felt that I would just reach
out to, I would reach out to either my best
friends or friends that I had close relationships with and
wanted to be closer with. And my community grew really
meaningfully during that year and a half, like twenty eighteen
twenty nineteen, and going into that relationship now I had
(31:39):
this community so and it's still my community. So I'm
really grateful for that energy, and it's honestly the place
I'm in now. And the other thing that I think
helped for me personally was getting a little bit more
comfortable with leaving space.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
What do you mean by leaving space?
Speaker 4 (31:57):
I think love is one of the best feelings in
the world, so or most people, you would rather have
the wrong version of it than none of it. But
as long as you're occupying the part of you that
has the capacity to love with a version of love
that isn't what you want. There isn't actually the space
for it to be filled by the version that you do.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
And holding on to.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
The idea that what was going to make me happy
was something that I didn't know anything about yet, Like
it wasn't an answer that I had at my fingertips,
Like it wasn't actually in my life. The thing that
was going to make me happy, the thing that I
was going to love, wasn't something that I could come
up with. It wasn't something that I had any semblance
of or any hints on. Like that reminder for myself
was useful. And then just reminding myself that like, yes,
(32:39):
there's a space there, and that space can be uncomfortable,
the space that wants to love someone, that wants to
hold someone. But if I feel it, then there isn't
room for the thing that's supposed to be there if
I keep filling it with the wrong thing.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yes, that was beautiful, And what you're also speaking to
is and maybe I'm wrong that even in that space,
your life can still be good, Like even when you're
living in that uncomfortable space, life can still be good.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Of course, emptiness is just openness from the right angle,
and reminding myself of that I think is one of
the best things I did in.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
That version of Heartbreak.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Yeah, because it can feel like emptiness, especially like when
there's someone who is there.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
For you, you.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Know, for a long period of time, who is that
intimate connection, and then they're not there anymore. Like it
can feel like emptiness, but with the right perspective, it
is also an openness. It's an openness for that space
to be filled by new things that you aren't able
to come up with for yourself, but will show up,
like showing up to a songwriting session with you know,
someone that you really admire and then writing a song
(33:45):
that changes your life, and meeting someone who changes your life.
You know, Like you don't come up with those things.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
It's just kind of you can't force that. Yeah, Yeah,
all right, y'all.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I know you're probably on the edge of your seat
because maybe we just got into talking about something that
you're like, give me more of this. I want to
hear more. Well, good news, there's going to be more
and it's coming next week. This is a two part
episode with JP Sacks, So if you have not already
subscribed or followed this podcast, go ahead and do that
(34:16):
now so you won't miss next week's episode. I will
be back with him next Monday, so go ahead and
do that. And in the meantime, I hope you guys
have the days that you need to have and I
will talk to you soon
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