October 28, 2024 • 22 mins
In this episode, Kat recalls a haunting jail tour from years ago that left her feeling trapped in more ways than one. Though she isn’t a fan of scary attractions, the experience reminded her how real "stuckness" feels in relationships, jobs, finances, and more. Kat explores why making logical decisions can be difficult when emotions come into play, how our wiser selves often go missing in tough moments, and why the scariest thing is sometimes just feeling stuck.
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Produced by: @HoustonTilley
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know
something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's
probably because it's uncomfortable to know. If you can die
before you die, then you can really live. There's a
wisdom at death's door. I thought I was insane. Yeah,
(00:31):
and I didn't know what to do because there was
no internet. I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel
like everything is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat.
I'm a human first and a licensed therapist second. And
right now I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope
encourage you to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others,
(00:54):
and the world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy.
Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of Eating
Therapy podcast. My name is Kat. I am the host,
and quick reminder before we get into today's episode that
although I am a therapist, this podcast is called You
Need Therapy. This podcast does not serve as a replacement
(01:14):
or substitute for any actual mental health services. However, we
always hope that it can help you in some way. Somehow,
wherever you are on whatever kind of journey you are
on in life. Now, before we get into today's episode,
two things I have to say that are on my mind. One,
there is a fly that I cannot kill that is
buzzing around me, and there's nothing more. Well, I'm sure
(01:36):
there are plenty of things more frustrating than this, but
right now in my life, there's nothing more frustrating than
flies that won't let you kill them or will not
exit when you open the door window. And the other
thing I wanted to say, just because I'm looking at
it right now, and this might not really be of
interest to a lot of you, but in the small
(01:57):
case that is the interest of some of you, I
wanted to share this. So I got married in February,
so a little over, I guess that's like ten months ago.
And I had been seeing everybody with their wedding bouquets,
getting them like pressed in like picture frames, and it
was really pretty. But I wanted something different, Like I
wanted the three D version of my flowers. And I
(02:18):
found this company called Rejoice and Blossom Art. You can
look them up on Instagram, and I think I found them.
I really want to say, I found them on TikTok,
but they do the resin molds and you can get
all kinds of shapes. I got like a I think
it's a hexagon for like my main piece, and there's
(02:39):
versions of almost every flower my bouquet, the ones that
I sent her in there and it set out really pretty.
And then you can add like add on things. And
I got a little pendant necklace with little pieces of
the petals for my flowers, for my wedding flowers, and
then a jewelry box with individual petals and flowers in
the resin mold, and it is so cool. I am
(03:01):
so glad that I did this. It's something that I
almost didn't do when I was trying to budget, but
I'm so glad I did it because this is something
that I will have forever. And I don't know if
I'm gonna have kids and if I will have girls,
but I just imagine myself giving like my daughter the
necklace with the little flower pedals. It's so cute, and
then having that jewelry box forever that I can keep
(03:24):
my wedding rings in. I mean, she has all kinds
of add ons. You can get like a purse you
can get smaller shapes, you can get letters like the
I could have gotten like a V for Van Buren.
So there's all kinds of stuff. But I just wanted
to shout them out because they did such a fantastic
job and I just think it is such a cool
way to keep your flowers and to be able to
(03:45):
dry them. Some people do the pressing all of that.
This is I just thought was a really fun and
different way to do that, and it gets to be
a piece of art in my home now, so I'm
really pumped about that. Her instagram is at Rejoice and Blossom,
so if that is of interesting you to you, I
would check her out. She also just makes fun, pretty
reels with all of her creations, so you might just
(04:06):
like following them in general. But I wanted to share
that because that was something really special to me and
I'm looking at it right now and it's just bringing
a smile to my face. Now let's get into today's episode.
It is Halloween week. I currently am in Italy traveling
my first trip to Europe, my first trip to Italy,
(04:29):
my first trip. Well, actually this is the longest flight
that I will ever be on. I'm saying I'm in
there there now. I'm actually not there yet now because
I'm recording this before I leave. But as you listen
to this, I will probably be in Italy not celebrating Halloween.
I don't believe we will be doing that, but in
the off case, you guys will be. And because I
won't be doing that, I thought we would do a
(04:49):
little my version of a spooky episode. And this time
of year is historically engulfed in ghost stories and just
all things scary, hanted trail rides, haunted houses, all the things.
And while I don't really find it appropriate for me
to create a podcast on this particular platform full of
(05:09):
scary stories, I'm sure there are plenty of those right
now that you could go listen to. Probably isn't the
best for our mental health. I don't want to be
promoting scaring ourselves and freaking ourselves out and giving ourselves anxiety. However,
I was recently reminded of a scary trip that I
took with a past boyfriend that in retrospect I really
(05:29):
learned a lot from and is somewhat fitting for the
theme of the week of Halloween. And I wish I
could say that after this trip I was able to
leave this relationship immediately and find something more fitting for
my needs. I can't say that, but this trip, in
(05:51):
this experience, did leave me knowing that I wanted things
to change, and I first I had to force those
changes in the relationship. And then, you know, long story short,
we didn't work out. I don't think that's a spoiler
because I married Patrick, but I wanted to share this nonetheless.
So in twenty nineteen, I took a trip to Charleston
(06:11):
with a past boyfriend. And some of you might know
this if you've been to Charleston or you just know
about Charleston. It's rich in haunted houses, it's haunted stories,
scary stories. It's a big part of the culture and
the tourism culture. And less of you may know that.
I am someone who is scared very easily. I can
(06:31):
barely watch someone get in a fight on TV, much
less watch a scary movie or listen to a haunted story.
A lot of TV that I watch with anybody, including
my now husband, ends up being with my eyes closed
if it's a scary show, or if there is any
kinds of fighting, or I don't even like watching the
(06:53):
suspenseful stuff. I close my eyes and I oftentimes will
also close my ears and then ask the person I'm
watching it with to let me know when it's over,
and then I asked them to tell me what happened.
I just do not like being forced to be scared.
It's not a comfortable feeling for me. It's not a
fun feeling for me. And I say all of this
because of what we did on this trip so previously.
(07:16):
Before this trip, I think maybe I had been to
one haunted house in my life, like the kind that
you like pay and they like jump out and scare you,
not like an actual haunted house, but like a man
made haunted house. And after I did that, I vowed
to never do it again. It was like, why would
I pay to do this? This is to me not
worth it. I need to like have therapy and do
(07:39):
a complete like meditation debriefing session after something like that,
it just is not worth it for me. And I
think it was pretty where it should have been a
parent that I was not destined to be with this
person that I won this trip with, because we both
took turns picking things that we wanted to do on
that trip, and out of all the activities we could
(07:59):
do and exp mind you, I just went to Charleston
with Patrick, my now husband. We did not choose any
type of haunted anything. There's plenty of other stuff to
do there. But out of all the things that we
could have done there, this person chose a nighttime haunted
jail tour. And I don't remember much of that tour.
(08:21):
I remember, of course, it rained that night, so it
made it even spookier, and I remember being so scared
and wanting to leave for the majority of the tour,
while I also at that same time remember feeling stuck
and like I could not leave. And I also starkly
remember that the person I was with at the time
(08:42):
got annoyed with me because I was being too clingy
when I was trying to hold his arm or hold
his hand throughout the tour. I was scared and wanted
some like calmness and some safety, and he saw that
as me being embarrassing and not cool. Again, another reason
I should have been like, h this person probably isn't
the person for me. They're bringing me to something that
(09:03):
I really don't want to do, and also are not
consoling me when I am not feeling things or I
am feeling a lot of things. Actually, And while this
isn't a ghost story, it is somewhat of a scary
story for me when I look back on it. When
I think about this experience in that time, I just
somewhat cringe, and I also feel really sad for that
(09:25):
version of me. And I think a lot of us
have had an experience that somewhat mimics the theme of
what I was going through at that time. It's really
frightening to remember versions of yourself that feel stuck in
places that you don't belong, especially when you weren't actually
stuck there. Rather, you were choosing to be there. You
(09:48):
were choosing to stay rooted in something that felt almost
borderline miserable. And it's also a common experience to look
at the situations that someone else is in and rationalize
that you would make more reasonable choice in there and making.
The easiest example is when it comes to dating. You
wouldn't let somebody treat you like that. You'd walk out,
you'd walk away, you'd stand up for yourself. It could
(10:10):
also span across all kinds of situations. You would leave
the job, you would stand up for the right cause,
you wouldn't let your kids roll around in dirt, or
you wouldn't be so overprotective, you wouldn't fight about money
leftover from your parents, will you would not get mad
about silly things that don't matter. Like, it's really easy
for us to sit back and act like we would
(10:30):
do something that is the obvious, logical, reasonable choice that
you would want to make us your best self. But
I don't think that we can say any of those
things for certain. We really can't say that. We can't
say what we would do. In my opinion, we can
say what we would want to do, and I think
that is really important for offering self compassion for ourselves.
(10:52):
And also it's really important to help us not be
as judgmental or hateful or cruel to people who are
moving through things that seem obvious to the outside world
but probably feel different to somebody on the inside experiencing it.
Until we are actually in that situation, that specific situation,
we can't know for certain what we would do. We
(11:13):
can't just assume that our highest selves would always be
the version that would show up, because our highest selves
are not always the version that shows up, and that
is not a character defect, that is not something's wrong
with you. It is just how humanity works. It's easier
when we are not feeling the intense emotions of something
(11:36):
to make a more logical decision, to make a decision
that would lead us closer to what we truly want,
when there's no fears, sadness and shame, guilt, any of
that involved in our decision making. And I think that's
really scary, knowing that our highest self isn't always the
version that's going to show up, and sometimes we do
(11:58):
things that we look back on. I wish that I
would have made a different choice. Now we can have
acceptance and say, well, it is what led us to hear.
But if our highest self actually showed up in that situation,
I think a lot of us at times would be
like I would have phrased that differently. I would have
said that differently, I would have been kindered to that person.
And I really do think the wise choice is often
(12:19):
the hardest choice to make. We aren't all martyrs out
here walking the path of most resistance all the time.
We tend to move with ease if possible and when
it's possible, and that makes sense. I wouldn't understand somebody
who wants to take the easier road. I mean, we
want to avoid pain as much as we can. That's
(12:40):
a pretty normal thought to have. I want to avoid
pain as much as possible, So whether that ease is
avoiding pain for as long as we can avoid pain,
or avoid confrontation, as long as we can avoid confrontation.
A lot of times we are taking that path for
a period of time, and we tell ourselves a version
(13:01):
of a story that allows us to stay where we are,
somewhat making us victims when we're actually the ones choosing
to stay in that chaos. And I'm not talking about
when we don't have the resources or ability to leave
places because we are afraid of our well being, We're
afraid of our lives, our families' lives. I'm not talking
about experiences when nobody is reaching out a hand to
(13:22):
help and there isn't a part of you that knows better.
I want to make that very clear, because I never
want to create a culture of victim blaming on this
show and in my environment at all. What I am
talking about is taking accountability for the insight that we
choose to have or not have. And this idea brings
(13:42):
me to a story that Laurie Gottlieb writes about in
her book, maybe you should talk to someone. It's a
fantastic book. If you guys have not read it, it's
so good. I read it during the pandemic and I
tried to prolong that book as much as I could.
I would like not let myself read it because they
didn't want it to end. And I actually got to
interview her a couple of years ago on the show.
(14:03):
So if you Search you need therapy Lori Gottlieb, you
can hear that interview as well. But specifically, this idea
of choosing to acknowledge inside or not reminds me of
a story that she talks about in the book, and
I wanted to share a little bit of that. If
(14:25):
you Search you Need therapy, Lrii Gottlieb, you can hear
that interview as well. But specifically, this idea of choosing
to acknowledge inside or not reminds me of a story
that she talks about in the book, and I wanted
to share a little bit of that because she also
wrote a Psychology Today article about that same story, and
I think took just excerpts from the book and compiled
(14:47):
an article so in this part of the book and
in this article, Laurie tells a story about her therapist Wendell, who,
during one of their sessions, tells her about a cartoon
that he's reminded of from her story and her particament
that she is in at that moment. And the cartoon
is of a prisoner who is shaking the prison bars
(15:07):
and he's trying to get out, but to his left
and right there are no bars, and he explains that
all the prisoner has to do is to walk around
to the other side and just walk out, he'd be free.
But he still just is shaking those bars frantically trying
to get out. And he talks about how that is
most of us, how we oftentimes feel very stuck. We
(15:29):
feel very trapped in these cells we've created. But there
is a way out, as long as we are willing
to see it. And I'm going to read directly from
the article and from the book. As she's explaining this,
Lori writes, then most of us come to therapy feeling trapped,
imprisoned by our thoughts, behaviors, marriages, jobs, fears, or past.
(15:54):
Sometimes we imprison ourselves with a narrative of self punishment.
If we have a choice between believing one of two things,
both of which we have evidence for. I'm lovable, I'm unlovable,
often we choose the one that makes us feel bad.
Why do we keep our radios tuned to the same
static written stations? The everyone's life is better than mine station,
(16:18):
The I can't trust people station nothing works out for
me station. Instead of moving the dial up or down,
change the station, walk around the bars. Who is stopping
us but ourselves? And now I'm going to read what
I believe is one of the most helpful and one
of the most frustrating parts of I think the experience
(16:42):
of therapy, and also her book, She writes insight is
the booby prize of therapy is my favorite maxim of
the trade, meaning you can have all the insight in
the world, but if you don't change when you're out
in the world, the insight and the therapy is worthless.
(17:03):
Insight allows you to ask yourself, is this something that's
been done to me? Or am I doing it to myself?
The answer gives you choices, but it's up to you
to make them. Typically, therapists are several steps ahead of
our patients, not because we're smarter or we're wiser, but
because we have the vantage point of being outside their lives.
(17:24):
I'll say to a patient who has brought their ring
but can't seem to find the right time to propose
to his girlfriend, I don't think you're sure you want
to marry her, And he'll say, what, of course I am,
I'm doing it this weekend. And then he goes home
and he doesn't propose because the weather was bad and
he wanted to do it on the beach. We'll have
the same dialogue for weeks, until one day he'll come
(17:45):
back and say, maybe I don't want to marry her.
Many people who say no, that's not me find themselves
a week or a month or a year later saying, yeah,
that's actually me, feeling that Wendell has been storing up
this question, waiting for just the right moment to float
it out there. Therapists are always weighing the balance between
(18:07):
forming a trusting alliance and getting to the real work.
So the patient doesn't have to continue to suffer from
the outset. We move both slowly and quickly, slowing the
content down, speeding up the relationship, planting seeds strategically along
the way as in nature. If you plant the seeds
too early, they won't sprout. If you plant too late,
(18:30):
they might make progress, but you've missed the most fertile ground.
If you plan it just the right time, though, they'll
soak up the nutrients and grow. Our work is an
intricate dance between support and confrontation. In the last sentence,
this is me talking the last sentence of that ough,
the intricate dance between support and confrontation. I love that.
(18:51):
I think that we can apply that relationship with ourselves
as well, and not just with the relationship of a therapist.
That we can both be supportive and confortation with ourselves
as we navigate the parts of our lives that we
are in charge of, the choices, that we're in charge of,
our own jail cells. We can acknowledge that maybe we
are our own jailer, and also taking that insight to
(19:14):
heart will be challenging. We won't snap our fingers as
soon as the insight hits. You may have insight, and
then you might take some time to make some decisions.
Sometimes we ignore reality. We choose not to see because
we don't want to then have to make a decision
or a big change. We aren't ready to do our
own part. Yet we are still getting something out of
being in that jail cell, and that's okay. That can
(19:37):
be part of our process. That can be part of
the process. I can acknowledge I'm not happy and work
towards moving out of something that's hurting me. I don't
have to do everything all at once. I could be
able to acknowledge that I can leave the haunted house
before saying, Okay, this really isn't fun anymore, I'm gonna leave.
I can talk about why I'm staying in the relationship
(20:00):
even though it's not going well before I have to
break up with somebody. And I think the fear of
having to make that move immediately keeps us from allowing
ourselves to acknowledge that there are no bars on the
other sides of our jail cells. Acting as if we
don't have choices in our lives and we're stuck doesn't
(20:20):
actually make things easier. It more so kind of twists
pain that we're feeling into suffering. So today this episode
is dedicated towards us looking to our left and looking
to our right and allowing ourselves to notice if the
doors are open? Is there another way? Am I the
(20:43):
one that's in charge of the experience I'm having right now?
And if so, let's marinate it on it a little bit.
Let's talk about why I'm sitting where I'm sitting, and
then find support to get me to where I want
to be. You don't have to do the action part
all at once, and you don't have to do it
completely alone. Small changes are possible, and you're allowed to
(21:05):
have help. That still counts. I think we can also
apply this to our feelings. Oftentimes we don't want to
acknowledge our feelings. We don't want to have insight into
our feelings because if we acknowledge what we're really feeling,
then that means that we then have to get rid
of that feeling. And the majority of the time, the
purpose of acknowledging our feelings is to allow them to
(21:26):
be used as tools. Sitting in our feelings does not
force us to do something. It actually is a tool.
It's a hint. They are guides that help lead us
to where we want to go. And so maybe we
need to acknowledge if the doors are on the jail cell,
maybe we need to acknowledge what we're feeling in this moment,
and that insight can then lead us to something that
(21:48):
more aligns with what we want in our lives and
for our lives and for ourselves. Again, I highly recommend
Laurie's book. Maybe you should talk to someone. I want
to read it again. It was such a beautiful story,
like it was just a good book. And also I
learned so much without even knowing that I was learning
along the way. If you guys have any questions, feedback, comments, anything,
(22:08):
you can send them to Katherine at you Need Therapy
podcast dot com. You can follow me Kat van Buren
and at you Need Therapy Podcast on Instagram. And until
next time, I hope you guys are having the day
that you need to have.
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know
something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's
probably because it's uncomfortable to know. If you can die
before you die, then you can really live. There's a
wisdom at death's door. I thought I was insane. Yeah,
(00:31):
and I didn't know what to do because there was
no internet. I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel
like everything is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat.
I'm a human first and a licensed therapist second. And
right now I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope
encourage you to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others,
(00:54):
and the world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy.
Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of Eating
Therapy podcast. My name is Kat. I am the host,
and quick reminder before we get into today's episode that
although I am a therapist, this podcast is called You
Need Therapy. This podcast does not serve as a replacement
(01:14):
or substitute for any actual mental health services. However, we
always hope that it can help you in some way. Somehow,
wherever you are on whatever kind of journey you are
on in life. Now, before we get into today's episode,
two things I have to say that are on my mind. One,
there is a fly that I cannot kill that is
buzzing around me, and there's nothing more. Well, I'm sure
(01:36):
there are plenty of things more frustrating than this, but
right now in my life, there's nothing more frustrating than
flies that won't let you kill them or will not
exit when you open the door window. And the other
thing I wanted to say, just because I'm looking at
it right now, and this might not really be of
interest to a lot of you, but in the small
(01:57):
case that is the interest of some of you, I
wanted to share this. So I got married in February,
so a little over, I guess that's like ten months ago.
And I had been seeing everybody with their wedding bouquets,
getting them like pressed in like picture frames, and it
was really pretty. But I wanted something different, Like I
wanted the three D version of my flowers. And I
(02:18):
found this company called Rejoice and Blossom Art. You can
look them up on Instagram, and I think I found them.
I really want to say, I found them on TikTok,
but they do the resin molds and you can get
all kinds of shapes. I got like a I think
it's a hexagon for like my main piece, and there's
(02:39):
versions of almost every flower my bouquet, the ones that
I sent her in there and it set out really pretty.
And then you can add like add on things. And
I got a little pendant necklace with little pieces of
the petals for my flowers, for my wedding flowers, and
then a jewelry box with individual petals and flowers in
the resin mold, and it is so cool. I am
(03:01):
so glad that I did this. It's something that I
almost didn't do when I was trying to budget, but
I'm so glad I did it because this is something
that I will have forever. And I don't know if
I'm gonna have kids and if I will have girls,
but I just imagine myself giving like my daughter the
necklace with the little flower pedals. It's so cute, and
then having that jewelry box forever that I can keep
(03:24):
my wedding rings in. I mean, she has all kinds
of add ons. You can get like a purse you
can get smaller shapes, you can get letters like the
I could have gotten like a V for Van Buren.
So there's all kinds of stuff. But I just wanted
to shout them out because they did such a fantastic
job and I just think it is such a cool
way to keep your flowers and to be able to
(03:45):
dry them. Some people do the pressing all of that.
This is I just thought was a really fun and
different way to do that, and it gets to be
a piece of art in my home now, so I'm
really pumped about that. Her instagram is at Rejoice and Blossom,
so if that is of interesting you to you, I
would check her out. She also just makes fun, pretty
reels with all of her creations, so you might just
(04:06):
like following them in general. But I wanted to share
that because that was something really special to me and
I'm looking at it right now and it's just bringing
a smile to my face. Now let's get into today's episode.
It is Halloween week. I currently am in Italy traveling
my first trip to Europe, my first trip to Italy,
(04:29):
my first trip. Well, actually this is the longest flight
that I will ever be on. I'm saying I'm in
there there now. I'm actually not there yet now because
I'm recording this before I leave. But as you listen
to this, I will probably be in Italy not celebrating Halloween.
I don't believe we will be doing that, but in
the off case, you guys will be. And because I
won't be doing that, I thought we would do a
(04:49):
little my version of a spooky episode. And this time
of year is historically engulfed in ghost stories and just
all things scary, hanted trail rides, haunted houses, all the things.
And while I don't really find it appropriate for me
to create a podcast on this particular platform full of
(05:09):
scary stories, I'm sure there are plenty of those right
now that you could go listen to. Probably isn't the
best for our mental health. I don't want to be
promoting scaring ourselves and freaking ourselves out and giving ourselves anxiety. However,
I was recently reminded of a scary trip that I
took with a past boyfriend that in retrospect I really
(05:29):
learned a lot from and is somewhat fitting for the
theme of the week of Halloween. And I wish I
could say that after this trip I was able to
leave this relationship immediately and find something more fitting for
my needs. I can't say that, but this trip, in
(05:51):
this experience, did leave me knowing that I wanted things
to change, and I first I had to force those
changes in the relationship. And then, you know, long story short,
we didn't work out. I don't think that's a spoiler
because I married Patrick, but I wanted to share this nonetheless.
So in twenty nineteen, I took a trip to Charleston
(06:11):
with a past boyfriend. And some of you might know
this if you've been to Charleston or you just know
about Charleston. It's rich in haunted houses, it's haunted stories,
scary stories. It's a big part of the culture and
the tourism culture. And less of you may know that.
I am someone who is scared very easily. I can
(06:31):
barely watch someone get in a fight on TV, much
less watch a scary movie or listen to a haunted story.
A lot of TV that I watch with anybody, including
my now husband, ends up being with my eyes closed
if it's a scary show, or if there is any
kinds of fighting, or I don't even like watching the
(06:53):
suspenseful stuff. I close my eyes and I oftentimes will
also close my ears and then ask the person I'm
watching it with to let me know when it's over,
and then I asked them to tell me what happened.
I just do not like being forced to be scared.
It's not a comfortable feeling for me. It's not a
fun feeling for me. And I say all of this
because of what we did on this trip so previously.
(07:16):
Before this trip, I think maybe I had been to
one haunted house in my life, like the kind that
you like pay and they like jump out and scare you,
not like an actual haunted house, but like a man
made haunted house. And after I did that, I vowed
to never do it again. It was like, why would
I pay to do this? This is to me not
worth it. I need to like have therapy and do
(07:39):
a complete like meditation debriefing session after something like that,
it just is not worth it for me. And I
think it was pretty where it should have been a
parent that I was not destined to be with this
person that I won this trip with, because we both
took turns picking things that we wanted to do on
that trip, and out of all the activities we could
(07:59):
do and exp mind you, I just went to Charleston
with Patrick, my now husband. We did not choose any
type of haunted anything. There's plenty of other stuff to
do there. But out of all the things that we
could have done there, this person chose a nighttime haunted
jail tour. And I don't remember much of that tour.
(08:21):
I remember, of course, it rained that night, so it
made it even spookier, and I remember being so scared
and wanting to leave for the majority of the tour,
while I also at that same time remember feeling stuck
and like I could not leave. And I also starkly
remember that the person I was with at the time
(08:42):
got annoyed with me because I was being too clingy
when I was trying to hold his arm or hold
his hand throughout the tour. I was scared and wanted
some like calmness and some safety, and he saw that
as me being embarrassing and not cool. Again, another reason
I should have been like, h this person probably isn't
the person for me. They're bringing me to something that
(09:03):
I really don't want to do, and also are not
consoling me when I am not feeling things or I
am feeling a lot of things. Actually, And while this
isn't a ghost story, it is somewhat of a scary
story for me when I look back on it. When
I think about this experience in that time, I just
somewhat cringe, and I also feel really sad for that
(09:25):
version of me. And I think a lot of us
have had an experience that somewhat mimics the theme of
what I was going through at that time. It's really
frightening to remember versions of yourself that feel stuck in
places that you don't belong, especially when you weren't actually
stuck there. Rather, you were choosing to be there. You
(09:48):
were choosing to stay rooted in something that felt almost
borderline miserable. And it's also a common experience to look
at the situations that someone else is in and rationalize
that you would make more reasonable choice in there and making.
The easiest example is when it comes to dating. You
wouldn't let somebody treat you like that. You'd walk out,
you'd walk away, you'd stand up for yourself. It could
(10:10):
also span across all kinds of situations. You would leave
the job, you would stand up for the right cause,
you wouldn't let your kids roll around in dirt, or
you wouldn't be so overprotective, you wouldn't fight about money
leftover from your parents, will you would not get mad
about silly things that don't matter. Like, it's really easy
for us to sit back and act like we would
(10:30):
do something that is the obvious, logical, reasonable choice that
you would want to make us your best self. But
I don't think that we can say any of those
things for certain. We really can't say that. We can't
say what we would do. In my opinion, we can
say what we would want to do, and I think
that is really important for offering self compassion for ourselves.
(10:52):
And also it's really important to help us not be
as judgmental or hateful or cruel to people who are
moving through things that seem obvious to the outside world
but probably feel different to somebody on the inside experiencing it.
Until we are actually in that situation, that specific situation,
we can't know for certain what we would do. We
(11:13):
can't just assume that our highest selves would always be
the version that would show up, because our highest selves
are not always the version that shows up, and that
is not a character defect, that is not something's wrong
with you. It is just how humanity works. It's easier
when we are not feeling the intense emotions of something
(11:36):
to make a more logical decision, to make a decision
that would lead us closer to what we truly want,
when there's no fears, sadness and shame, guilt, any of
that involved in our decision making. And I think that's
really scary, knowing that our highest self isn't always the
version that's going to show up, and sometimes we do
(11:58):
things that we look back on. I wish that I
would have made a different choice. Now we can have
acceptance and say, well, it is what led us to hear.
But if our highest self actually showed up in that situation,
I think a lot of us at times would be
like I would have phrased that differently. I would have
said that differently, I would have been kindered to that person.
And I really do think the wise choice is often
(12:19):
the hardest choice to make. We aren't all martyrs out
here walking the path of most resistance all the time.
We tend to move with ease if possible and when
it's possible, and that makes sense. I wouldn't understand somebody
who wants to take the easier road. I mean, we
want to avoid pain as much as we can. That's
(12:40):
a pretty normal thought to have. I want to avoid
pain as much as possible, So whether that ease is
avoiding pain for as long as we can avoid pain,
or avoid confrontation, as long as we can avoid confrontation.
A lot of times we are taking that path for
a period of time, and we tell ourselves a version
(13:01):
of a story that allows us to stay where we are,
somewhat making us victims when we're actually the ones choosing
to stay in that chaos. And I'm not talking about
when we don't have the resources or ability to leave
places because we are afraid of our well being, We're
afraid of our lives, our families' lives. I'm not talking
about experiences when nobody is reaching out a hand to
(13:22):
help and there isn't a part of you that knows better.
I want to make that very clear, because I never
want to create a culture of victim blaming on this
show and in my environment at all. What I am
talking about is taking accountability for the insight that we
choose to have or not have. And this idea brings
(13:42):
me to a story that Laurie Gottlieb writes about in
her book, maybe you should talk to someone. It's a
fantastic book. If you guys have not read it, it's
so good. I read it during the pandemic and I
tried to prolong that book as much as I could.
I would like not let myself read it because they
didn't want it to end. And I actually got to
interview her a couple of years ago on the show.
(14:03):
So if you Search you need therapy Lori Gottlieb, you
can hear that interview as well. But specifically, this idea
of choosing to acknowledge inside or not reminds me of
a story that she talks about in the book, and
I wanted to share a little bit of that. If
(14:25):
you Search you Need therapy, Lrii Gottlieb, you can hear
that interview as well. But specifically, this idea of choosing
to acknowledge inside or not reminds me of a story
that she talks about in the book, and I wanted
to share a little bit of that because she also
wrote a Psychology Today article about that same story, and
I think took just excerpts from the book and compiled
(14:47):
an article so in this part of the book and
in this article, Laurie tells a story about her therapist Wendell, who,
during one of their sessions, tells her about a cartoon
that he's reminded of from her story and her particament
that she is in at that moment. And the cartoon
is of a prisoner who is shaking the prison bars
(15:07):
and he's trying to get out, but to his left
and right there are no bars, and he explains that
all the prisoner has to do is to walk around
to the other side and just walk out, he'd be free.
But he still just is shaking those bars frantically trying
to get out. And he talks about how that is
most of us, how we oftentimes feel very stuck. We
(15:29):
feel very trapped in these cells we've created. But there
is a way out, as long as we are willing
to see it. And I'm going to read directly from
the article and from the book. As she's explaining this,
Lori writes, then most of us come to therapy feeling trapped,
imprisoned by our thoughts, behaviors, marriages, jobs, fears, or past.
(15:54):
Sometimes we imprison ourselves with a narrative of self punishment.
If we have a choice between believing one of two things,
both of which we have evidence for. I'm lovable, I'm unlovable,
often we choose the one that makes us feel bad.
Why do we keep our radios tuned to the same
static written stations? The everyone's life is better than mine station,
(16:18):
The I can't trust people station nothing works out for
me station. Instead of moving the dial up or down,
change the station, walk around the bars. Who is stopping
us but ourselves? And now I'm going to read what
I believe is one of the most helpful and one
of the most frustrating parts of I think the experience
(16:42):
of therapy, and also her book, She writes insight is
the booby prize of therapy is my favorite maxim of
the trade, meaning you can have all the insight in
the world, but if you don't change when you're out
in the world, the insight and the therapy is worthless.
(17:03):
Insight allows you to ask yourself, is this something that's
been done to me? Or am I doing it to myself?
The answer gives you choices, but it's up to you
to make them. Typically, therapists are several steps ahead of
our patients, not because we're smarter or we're wiser, but
because we have the vantage point of being outside their lives.
(17:24):
I'll say to a patient who has brought their ring
but can't seem to find the right time to propose
to his girlfriend, I don't think you're sure you want
to marry her, And he'll say, what, of course I am,
I'm doing it this weekend. And then he goes home
and he doesn't propose because the weather was bad and
he wanted to do it on the beach. We'll have
the same dialogue for weeks, until one day he'll come
(17:45):
back and say, maybe I don't want to marry her.
Many people who say no, that's not me find themselves
a week or a month or a year later saying, yeah,
that's actually me, feeling that Wendell has been storing up
this question, waiting for just the right moment to float
it out there. Therapists are always weighing the balance between
(18:07):
forming a trusting alliance and getting to the real work.
So the patient doesn't have to continue to suffer from
the outset. We move both slowly and quickly, slowing the
content down, speeding up the relationship, planting seeds strategically along
the way as in nature. If you plant the seeds
too early, they won't sprout. If you plant too late,
(18:30):
they might make progress, but you've missed the most fertile ground.
If you plan it just the right time, though, they'll
soak up the nutrients and grow. Our work is an
intricate dance between support and confrontation. In the last sentence,
this is me talking the last sentence of that ough,
the intricate dance between support and confrontation. I love that.
(18:51):
I think that we can apply that relationship with ourselves
as well, and not just with the relationship of a therapist.
That we can both be supportive and confortation with ourselves
as we navigate the parts of our lives that we
are in charge of, the choices, that we're in charge of,
our own jail cells. We can acknowledge that maybe we
are our own jailer, and also taking that insight to
(19:14):
heart will be challenging. We won't snap our fingers as
soon as the insight hits. You may have insight, and
then you might take some time to make some decisions.
Sometimes we ignore reality. We choose not to see because
we don't want to then have to make a decision
or a big change. We aren't ready to do our
own part. Yet we are still getting something out of
being in that jail cell, and that's okay. That can
(19:37):
be part of our process. That can be part of
the process. I can acknowledge I'm not happy and work
towards moving out of something that's hurting me. I don't
have to do everything all at once. I could be
able to acknowledge that I can leave the haunted house
before saying, Okay, this really isn't fun anymore, I'm gonna leave.
I can talk about why I'm staying in the relationship
(20:00):
even though it's not going well before I have to
break up with somebody. And I think the fear of
having to make that move immediately keeps us from allowing
ourselves to acknowledge that there are no bars on the
other sides of our jail cells. Acting as if we
don't have choices in our lives and we're stuck doesn't
(20:20):
actually make things easier. It more so kind of twists
pain that we're feeling into suffering. So today this episode
is dedicated towards us looking to our left and looking
to our right and allowing ourselves to notice if the
doors are open? Is there another way? Am I the
(20:43):
one that's in charge of the experience I'm having right now?
And if so, let's marinate it on it a little bit.
Let's talk about why I'm sitting where I'm sitting, and
then find support to get me to where I want
to be. You don't have to do the action part
all at once, and you don't have to do it
completely alone. Small changes are possible, and you're allowed to
(21:05):
have help. That still counts. I think we can also
apply this to our feelings. Oftentimes we don't want to
acknowledge our feelings. We don't want to have insight into
our feelings because if we acknowledge what we're really feeling,
then that means that we then have to get rid
of that feeling. And the majority of the time, the
purpose of acknowledging our feelings is to allow them to
(21:26):
be used as tools. Sitting in our feelings does not
force us to do something. It actually is a tool.
It's a hint. They are guides that help lead us
to where we want to go. And so maybe we
need to acknowledge if the doors are on the jail cell,
maybe we need to acknowledge what we're feeling in this moment,
and that insight can then lead us to something that
(21:48):
more aligns with what we want in our lives and
for our lives and for ourselves. Again, I highly recommend
Laurie's book. Maybe you should talk to someone. I want
to read it again. It was such a beautiful story,
like it was just a good book. And also I
learned so much without even knowing that I was learning
along the way. If you guys have any questions, feedback, comments, anything,
(22:08):
you can send them to Katherine at you Need Therapy
podcast dot com. You can follow me Kat van Buren
and at you Need Therapy Podcast on Instagram. And until
next time, I hope you guys are having the day
that you need to have.
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