September 23, 2024 • 28 mins
This week, Kat brings back licensed marriage and family therapist Staci Buford from Three Cords Therapy to tackle an insightful question from a listener about self-education. The listener asks how to navigate learning about sensitive topics—such as race, sexuality, and the experiences of war veterans—without placing the burden on those who live these experiences. Kat and Staci dive into the complexities of this issue, focusing particularly on racial dynamics. Staci shares her journey of learning during her therapy training, and the two provide practical resources and advice for those who want to educate themselves on these important topics.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up on you need therapy.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I can think of specifically working with a couple clients
that are part of different religious cultures that are very,
very strong and important in a big part of their identity,
and I'm coming from a place of creating a space
for them to be safe and process and feel their
(00:24):
feels and also share and organized thoughts and connect with
me about it. I want to make sure that I
am meeting them.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know
something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's
probably because it's uncomfortable to know.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
If you can die before you die, then you can
really live. There's a wisdom at death's door.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know
what to do because there was no internet.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all,
my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a
licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into
conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious
and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you.
(01:21):
Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys, and welcome to
a new episode of You Need Therapy podcast. My name
is kat I am the host. And quick reminder before
we get into today's episode that although this podcast is
called You Need Therapy, and you actually have two therapists
here with you today, it does not serve as a
replacement or a substitute for any actual mental health services.
(01:45):
We have Stacy here.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
She has been on a couple times before and she
is one of the therapists at Through Courts Therapy. So
Stacy is here today to do one of the this
is for the Therapist episodes. And I'm actually kind of combining
a Couch Talks vibes with a this is for the
Therapist because I got a really good email from a
listener asking a question that has to do with being
(02:10):
a therapist. And if you don't know what the this
is for the Therapists series is, it is kind of
an ongoing whenever it pops up series that I just
started that talks about things specific to being a therapist. However,
no matter if you're a therapist or not, a lot
of these themes are going to be things that come
up in everyday life, including this one. So what I'm
(02:30):
gonna do is read the email and then we're going
to chat about it. Hey, Kat, One of the things
that I had thought about before but stuck out to
me in my underground was this, as a therapist, it
is not your client's job to educate you. This was
in context of racial things, sexuality, war vets, et cetera. Okay, great,
(02:55):
I connect and agree with the concept. My question is
how do I educate myself? Do you have any RECs
for books, podcasts, online classes, or anything else that would
be helpful to educate this middle class, naive, single white
girl on any of the above topics or others. Ultimately,
I also agree with the concept of you can't relate
(03:17):
to everyone's experience, but you can relate to someone's humanity.
So having a deep knowledge of every topic may not
be required. However, I still want to do what I
can to educate myself on these topics I know nothing about.
Please send help, thanks in advance. So I love this question,
and I love this topic because I think one in
(03:39):
my experience that is glossed over and then almost people
are afraid to ask follow up questions on and so
I brought stacy because she has a unique experience that's
different from mine around this because I'm white, she's black.
She has had all white therapists except recently, and she
also is a therapist that sees people of all colors.
(04:01):
So I'm gonna throw this to her to kind of
give her experience, and then we're just going to talk
about it. So what came up for you when you
hear this kind of topic come up?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I immediately think of consideration, and I think that it's
wonderful that she is even considering. How can I show
up being different and caring and considering. So I think
to address what she's saying, No, we can't know everyone's
(04:32):
experiences to great levels, And I think we need to
check motivation.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Oh what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Like why why am I asking for this information or
why am I seeking this out? Is it to care
for you? Is it to create connection and community? And
overall I think the theme of this is how can
I be considered?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, And to play the other side of that, Sometimes
we're asking this question to appear intelligent or smart or
all knowing or not mess up. Versus I'm asking this
question because I want to consider the people that I'm
working with, Yeah, and I want them to feel like
I care for them, not that I know everything about them,
but I care for and about them.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
And I think that applies with any client, whether you
are both female, whether you are the same race. You
don't know any and everything about a person, and it's
our job to be curious. And I think the most
important part of that is checking our motivation, because when
that is in a place of care and considering this
(05:39):
other person's humanity, then we are given that off. We
are asking in ways or even prefacing the questions or
curiosities in a way where the other person knows I'm
here and I'm asking these questions to consider you, not
I'm leaning on you and not doing my own work
or research or yeah, like I'm lazy, or this isn't
(06:03):
really going to affect me as much.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Can you give a little bit of a background on
your experience of what that has felt for you as
a client or as a human being.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Even in my experience, this is a new consideration for me.
I think generally speaking, it's not been my experience that
majority of black people in my communities have even largely
gone to therapy. So I'm thinking about my therapy journey,
which my first experience was grief counseling as an undergraduate
(06:36):
student at Belmont with missus Georgia Alexander, who happened to
be black, and she was assigned to me, and that
was life changing. That experience made me know that I
wanted to continue therapy the rest of my life. And
after exiting college looking for a therapist, it never occurred
to me that I had another option than who was available,
(06:59):
which were typically just white men and women. And I
had a recent experience at therapists training actually where in
two separate instances over the course of the four day training.
On day one, actually I was approached by Pierre, who
was a white male, and he prefaced this in the warmest,
(07:22):
most sincere way of how do you feel being here?
And we were both silent, and I'm looking at him
thinking about how I'd like to answer this. I was
clear on what he meant, and then he said, you
know what I mean by that?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And I said, yes, what did you think he meant
by that?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
He meant being the only person of color and you
knew that, yeah, And he ended up explaining that explicitly,
saying it I was one person of color out of
twenty therapists and a guide, and that was so touching
because I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before.
(08:03):
And probably day three, we were on break getting coffee
and teas and such, and there were two ladies that
were part of the training who asked me, did they
prepare you that you'd be the only person of color
before you arrived at the program? And once again I
was kind of taken aback of, like no. And also
(08:26):
it made me sad of like, why didn't I consider that?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And these people.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Were They just cared, They were really considerate, like what's
your experience?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
How is this going?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Just that general consideration and curiosity that I feel like
this therapist that's writing into you is coming from. And
I think those are the important motivations to create that connection,
to share that consideration and find out more about people's
experience for a reason that is caring and seek out
(09:00):
connection and connecting humanity.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
And she mentioned that I'm curious when those people were
asking those questions, was there like a light bulb of wait,
I don't even think about this.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yes, absolutely, it gave me a lot of pause, and
I think That's where I realized, Oh, this is actually
kind of sad that I didn't have this consideration for
myself because this is kind of unprecedented. I've shown it
to a lot of organized events where I'm the only
person of color, and I've never received that question, that consideration,
(09:33):
any additional curiosities, even if people thought it. Like you
mentioned at the beginning, it's kind of something that people
stay away from, stray away from. It also shifted my
perception during the rest of the training of how I
don't want to use hard, but maybe it is how
much energy I'm using to be a part of a
(09:55):
largely white community and needing to research things or no
things to be able to just.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Participate and understand certain things. Yeah, but nobody's doing that
for you, no, because you're the minority in that greer.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yeah. And I just hadn't thought of it like that
until they were posing the questions, and I was like, wow,
I remember feeling such a release, in such a relief
of like, Ooh, I really don't need to try that hard.
I didn't realize like how active I am on the
inside of like overthinking before responding.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Or so you can just almost like blend in yes.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
And obviously we know I'm not blending.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
But yeah, you know, I guess it's it interesting for
you saying like, oh this is this is a new thing.
Nobody's asking these questions, so I haven't thought much about it.
With that experience in mind, are there times whether let's
stay on like I guess the therapy mental health track,
and have there been times looking back with like hindsight
of oh, really would have been nice if my therapists
would have done this, or I didn't recognize how hard
(10:57):
it was to almost over explain things to my therapist,
or be wondering if she really understands what you're saying.
Have there been times looking back with hindsight of oh,
really would have been nice if my therapists would have
done this, or I didn't recognize how hard it was
(11:20):
to almost over explain things to my therapist, or be
wondering if she really understands what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I often try to think how do I do that
in the room because I can think of specifically working
with a couple clients that are part of different religious
cultures that are very very strong and important in a
big part of their identity, and I am just really
(11:48):
mindful about saying, what is this like under that lens
or in.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
This aspect, because assuming.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, and I'm coming from a place of creating a
space for them to be safe and process and feel
their feels and also share and organized thoughts and connect
with me about it, I want to actually make the connection.
So I want to meet them.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
And I have it's a weird thing in the middle
of us that way, Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I want to make sure that I am meeting them,
and I feel like I do that by making it known,
like this is actually really important to how you view
the world and how you see yourself in the world.
So I want to help share that with you if
I can, or I want to meet you there and
have you helped me understand. And it usually goes overwheled
(12:42):
because it's coming from a place of.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Caring well, And this is where I think this topic
gets a little difficult, and I think why a lot
of people do stray away from it, because You're right,
people just decide not to talk about it because they
don't want to hurt somebody's feelings or give the wrong impression, or.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
They don't want to be uncomfort they don't want.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
To just all avoiding all kinds of discomfort. And I
want to hear what you think about this, because I
could be wrong in this thinking. My thought process is
as a helper, I mean honestly, as a human being
that lives in a world that isn't just people that
look like me. But as a helper specifically because my
job is to help people understand themselves and work on things.
(13:23):
I do have a responsibility to research and understand and
look outside of my own culture, my belief system, my
own sexuality, all that stuff, and not everybody is the same.
So not every white person's to say, not black person's
the same, not every gay person's the same, not every Christian,
not every person of Jewish person, not everybody is the same.
(13:46):
So if I research and read a book on this culture,
it is also unfair to me to assume that I
really can understand somebody from reading this book about something
that they connect with. So there is in my experience
this is not so black and white. It is. It
is my job to do my best, and it is
(14:09):
the individual's job to help me fill in the gaps
because I can't know them better than they know themselves.
I wouldn't want somebody to assume that I'm the same
because I'm white and so that I must be this way.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, I think as the helper, I think it's important
to communicate that I am interested and I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Oh, I like that I'm interested and I don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
And even when when they teach me things that i'm
learning something, I do take extra initiative and I'll be like,
I'm going to look that up, and I will, but
that it has come from them, it's something that they
care about. And again, I keep coming back to consideration
and caring because the point is in this space, I
want you to feel known and seen. I want to
(14:55):
see you.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I want to meet you the best that I can. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yes, And I'm doing that by being interested in receiving
what you're giving me that you care about and things
that are important to your identity and like you're saying,
not this larger community of maybe religion or sexuality or
race or whatever. So definitely I'm leaning on the client
(15:19):
in a way of yeah, tell me about you. I'm interested,
tell me about what you want me to know about you,
or what.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Came up for me as I was listening to you,
is what would it look like if we never assumed
things about our clients based on what they present with
on the outside. And that's not just what they look like,
but it could be like their religion or something like that,
what the state that they grew up with and stuff
like that. What would it look like if I was
interested and I also didn't assume, and so I asked
(15:50):
questions like what is important for me to know? What
is it important for me to know more about? And
where can I go do this on my own? And
where do you you need to meet me in the
middle having that be a two way street, because I
think the dynamic of therapy is weird in general, where
people come in and they think that the therapist is
like all knowing, is going to do some like vodoo
(16:11):
magic trick and like heal you. And then also therapists
were taught that we can't do work for our clients,
and so I think a lot of therapists can take
that too far where this is crazy. I don't know
if I've told you this, but at a place I
worked with, there is a therapist that there could be
a world in which this worked. It just would not
work for me as a therapist. If their client didn't
(16:31):
bring something to talk about, he would pull a book
off the shelf and just start reading in the session.
What it is that not cuckoo karasha? Where I was like,
first of all, that amn being more uncomfortable than just
giving staring at somebody blankly with eye contact like that
to me sends a message. And that's why it depends
on who you're working with. You got a really like
(16:53):
therapy is an art form where that could work for
a certain client and a certain therapist, But me that
would just be like what is she doing? And like
this is not a natural life, and there's a different
way for me to communicate, like, hey, it feels like
you come into sessions every week wanting me to do
a trick and I can't help you unless you bring
(17:15):
things to the room versus oh you know, I'm just
gonna read your book. Yes, it is crazy, So I
share that to say like there is a balance between
that where we are not the all knowing people with
anything with mental health, with people's culture, with understanding somebody's
personality or anything. We are experts in helping people become
(17:38):
experts of their own lives. Yes, is the best way
I can put it empathetic.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Other we listen, offer feedback, help you organize thoughts, behavior patterns, but.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
We don't tell you who you are.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Oh no, and that again is the relationship. Yeah, I
am interested and I don't know. Would you tell me?
Speaker 1 (17:59):
What do you think? Is the reason therapists have a
hard time saying what you just said?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
It might be what you just described of this weird
expectation that I'm coming in and this person is all
knowing or yes, I have information and training and education
and practice, and that is different. It's not in competition
with what the client's expertise is.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
I don't know if this fits for you, but looking
back on who I was as a younger therapist and
a younger human, it was way harder for me to
admit than not knowing. So me saying like I don't
know would be me admitting that I'm bad at my job,
or you're gonna think I'm stupid, or I lost the
authority that I have in the room versus now, when
(18:54):
I admit I don't know, a lot of times it
feels freeing like that I don't know because that's just
part of being a human being, and like doesn't mean
I have to stay there. Yeah, but that doesn't feel
as damaging to my reputation or my ego.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I guess that has to largely come from ego.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Anyway, I was thinking about what might be different about
my experience that allows me to practice that a lot.
And I actually think two things. A being a black therapist,
I began already seeing.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
People not of color.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, and because I started off largely seeing adolescents. If
you think about that dynamic, it's typically a parent saying, hey,
I've got this kid. These are the things that are
going on. Please see my kid, these are their issues.
I'm automatically needing to come to this kid of like curiosity,
what's actually happening? How are you? Who are you?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
What do you care about?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And I'm just thinking about both of those. Aspects of
how I started in the work were very much I
don't know, tell me yes those questions.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, there is no.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Room really egoically to be making assumptions like I did
know you could.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Do that, but you'd be a pretty about.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, yeah, I guess I could. But that actually that
did caument a lot of practice.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
In it's very natural for you to do that where
you know what speaking to like just the racial part
of that. It's not natural for white people to do that,
just how you were talking about with that story at
your training, It's not natural for us to have to
ask those questions because we're usually around people that we
have more space to assume we know the answer.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah. And all three of those people said a version
of that and made it a point to say, like,
I would like to be more considerate about that in
spaces today. Yeah, also kind of acknowledging this is a
new thing for all of us, this practice, this consideration,
this I'm going to be bold to have this conversation
(21:02):
or ask these questions. And so I think to the
person the listener that wrote in, good for you, because
I think that only creates more connection, that that makes
you a better therapist asking questions that might or might
not be discomforting. Actually, each of those people that brought
(21:23):
that up created more of a connection that I actually
felt more safe, Like I said, I felt more relieved.
I felt less energy intension of like needing to be
do or we'll show up as a different person.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
You didn't have to do this, and you took the
energy and the time to do it, and that is
more meaningful than the information that you have in your
brain at about anything. Yeah, you just attempting, whether it
to get to know me face a face or to
do this research on your own. Like that goes a
long way. And so I would say, and if you disagree,
(22:02):
I'm open. I would say for anybody who is having
fears or insecurities or just uncomfy feelings about approaching this
and not knowing what is right or wrong one every
client to individual, So what worked for one client might
not be what another client needs. But if you're coming
from a place of consideration and care, it is worth
(22:25):
stepping into that discomfort. Now the client might be like,
wait what, because, like you said, nobody is I've ever
heard this? Yes, and like what, I have almost trained
my brain to not think about this thing that you're
bringing up, So wait what? But then after that, when
you sat in it, you're like, WHOA, that was maybe
(22:45):
one of the kindest thing that's happened to me in
a long time.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yes, and I came to you saying that that made
such an impact.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, that was one of the highlights of that training.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I guess what I'm trying to say, and too many
words is it's not as important how much information you
can retain and you knowing everything, it's that you are
even putting the effort into it. And we can get
really caught up on the information versus the intent.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yes, because whatever you think you might know may not
apply to this person or they may not value that.
And so once again, you don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
So I'm going to go back to this original thing
as we kind of wrap this up. Is the quote
that was brought up in the beginning that I think
most of us that go through programs for therapy hear this.
As a therapist, it's not your client's job to educate you,
period new sentence. You do need your clients to help
them educate you about themselves. Yes, so they are not
(23:46):
our teachers on what it's like to be a black
person in the grand scheme of things, about what Christianity
is and about what the rules of that religion, we
need them. There's no way I can do all this
research to understand what that experience has been like for you.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, And I would encourage therapists to not let that idea,
because you're right, we are taught that. And I thought
a lot about that doing practicum.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
And almost we overthink it.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I did, especially my very first Muslim client. I wanted
so badly not to offend them by asking questions, and
I think that was a disservice in the beginning. Fortunately,
our relationship carried forward and I got comfortable asking, like,
(24:34):
teach me this or I'll look this up because I
want to know you and again what this means for you,
and what this means for what you're bringing into session,
and what lends this is for your relationships and all
of that. So I would like to encourage therapists to
not let that limit how you are going to be curious, Yeah,
(24:57):
and getting to know your client.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
So they asked for books, podcasts, online classes, all of
that recommendations. Do you have any Rex, Yes, I think
this is a hard question to answer. This is because
to educate on.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
What like, I have the perfect book to start. Okay,
it's called The Person You Mean to Be.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
So of this book The Person you Mean to Be?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yes, I actually read it during It had to have
been a cultural diversity class in graduate school. It is
based on just helping people to see their biases.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
And be a human. Oh I love that. Okay, it's
such a good book, adding to my cart right now.
I've said this before on the podcast, but I think
one of the biggest disappointments I have looking back on
my education part of becoming a therapist is my diversity
class because it was like we were all kind of
faking it.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
That was actually the hardest class during school. It created
so much division because it was just heart.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I feel like our class didn't create the vision because
nobody was being honest. It almost just was like, yeah,
that sure, totally. And then but we didn't really think
about things, so like I didn't feel that I can
want to speak for myself. I didn't feel challenged and
allow myself to be as challenged. And maybe it's because
that space didn't feel safe enough. I don't know, but
I wish I could redo that class, if I could
(26:19):
redo one class. What year was this, probably twenty fourteen.
The climate was at we weren't as open as an
even just either.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
This is probably like twenty nineteen, twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
And it was rough, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And what was the really aggressive book microaggressions?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
It was just hard.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
It was very hard for why and black people to
do that together.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Oh my gosh, doing that in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Bringing it back to what we are talking about. These
things are new for our culture as a whole, and
I think that is another reason why where we're looking
at who's responsibility is it for what it's a relationship.
It's both people's responsibility.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Oh. I love that you said that. We are always
as human beings looking for where to lay responsibility or blame.
And it's shared most of the time. Yeah, that is
going to be a shared anytime you're in relationship, it's shared. Yeah.
I think that is helpful to hear.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
And hopefully that's what therapists are walking away with here.
Of doesn't mean it's always equal, but it's always shared. Yeah,
we're sharing it and being curious and being considerate typically
goes well. Yeah, so have some confidence in that it does.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Typically go okay. Well, thank you for having this conversation.
If you have any questions, feedback, comments, anything for the
podcast in general or for Stacy in general, you can
send those to Katherine at Unique Therapy podcast dot com.
You can follow us at you Need Therapy and at
(28:04):
three Quarts Therapy on Instagram. And I hope you guys
have the day you need to have and I will
be back with you on Wednesday for couch talks. Bye.
Coming up on you need therapy.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I can think of specifically working with a couple clients
that are part of different religious cultures that are very,
very strong and important in a big part of their identity,
and I'm coming from a place of creating a space
for them to be safe and process and feel their
(00:24):
feels and also share and organized thoughts and connect with
me about it. I want to make sure that I
am meeting them.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know
something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's
probably because it's uncomfortable to know.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
If you can die before you die, then you can
really live. There's a wisdom at death's door.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know
what to do because there was no internet.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all,
my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a
licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into
conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious
and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you.
(01:21):
Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys, and welcome to
a new episode of You Need Therapy podcast. My name
is kat I am the host. And quick reminder before
we get into today's episode that although this podcast is
called You Need Therapy, and you actually have two therapists
here with you today, it does not serve as a
replacement or a substitute for any actual mental health services.
(01:45):
We have Stacy here.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
She has been on a couple times before and she
is one of the therapists at Through Courts Therapy. So
Stacy is here today to do one of the this
is for the Therapist episodes. And I'm actually kind of combining
a Couch Talks vibes with a this is for the
Therapist because I got a really good email from a
listener asking a question that has to do with being
(02:10):
a therapist. And if you don't know what the this
is for the Therapists series is, it is kind of
an ongoing whenever it pops up series that I just
started that talks about things specific to being a therapist. However,
no matter if you're a therapist or not, a lot
of these themes are going to be things that come
up in everyday life, including this one. So what I'm
(02:30):
gonna do is read the email and then we're going
to chat about it. Hey, Kat, One of the things
that I had thought about before but stuck out to
me in my underground was this, as a therapist, it
is not your client's job to educate you. This was
in context of racial things, sexuality, war vets, et cetera. Okay, great,
(02:55):
I connect and agree with the concept. My question is
how do I educate myself? Do you have any RECs
for books, podcasts, online classes, or anything else that would
be helpful to educate this middle class, naive, single white
girl on any of the above topics or others. Ultimately,
I also agree with the concept of you can't relate
(03:17):
to everyone's experience, but you can relate to someone's humanity.
So having a deep knowledge of every topic may not
be required. However, I still want to do what I
can to educate myself on these topics I know nothing about.
Please send help, thanks in advance. So I love this question,
and I love this topic because I think one in
(03:39):
my experience that is glossed over and then almost people
are afraid to ask follow up questions on and so
I brought stacy because she has a unique experience that's
different from mine around this because I'm white, she's black.
She has had all white therapists except recently, and she
also is a therapist that sees people of all colors.
(04:01):
So I'm gonna throw this to her to kind of
give her experience, and then we're just going to talk
about it. So what came up for you when you
hear this kind of topic come up?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I immediately think of consideration, and I think that it's
wonderful that she is even considering. How can I show
up being different and caring and considering. So I think
to address what she's saying, No, we can't know everyone's
(04:32):
experiences to great levels, And I think we need to
check motivation.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Oh what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Like why why am I asking for this information or
why am I seeking this out? Is it to care
for you? Is it to create connection and community? And
overall I think the theme of this is how can
I be considered?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, And to play the other side of that, Sometimes
we're asking this question to appear intelligent or smart or
all knowing or not mess up. Versus I'm asking this
question because I want to consider the people that I'm
working with, Yeah, and I want them to feel like
I care for them, not that I know everything about them,
but I care for and about them.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
And I think that applies with any client, whether you
are both female, whether you are the same race. You
don't know any and everything about a person, and it's
our job to be curious. And I think the most
important part of that is checking our motivation, because when
that is in a place of care and considering this
(05:39):
other person's humanity, then we are given that off. We
are asking in ways or even prefacing the questions or
curiosities in a way where the other person knows I'm
here and I'm asking these questions to consider you, not
I'm leaning on you and not doing my own work
or research or yeah, like I'm lazy, or this isn't
(06:03):
really going to affect me as much.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Can you give a little bit of a background on
your experience of what that has felt for you as
a client or as a human being.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Even in my experience, this is a new consideration for me.
I think generally speaking, it's not been my experience that
majority of black people in my communities have even largely
gone to therapy. So I'm thinking about my therapy journey,
which my first experience was grief counseling as an undergraduate
(06:36):
student at Belmont with missus Georgia Alexander, who happened to
be black, and she was assigned to me, and that
was life changing. That experience made me know that I
wanted to continue therapy the rest of my life. And
after exiting college looking for a therapist, it never occurred
to me that I had another option than who was available,
(06:59):
which were typically just white men and women. And I
had a recent experience at therapists training actually where in
two separate instances over the course of the four day training.
On day one, actually I was approached by Pierre, who
was a white male, and he prefaced this in the warmest,
(07:22):
most sincere way of how do you feel being here?
And we were both silent, and I'm looking at him
thinking about how I'd like to answer this. I was
clear on what he meant, and then he said, you
know what I mean by that?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And I said, yes, what did you think he meant
by that?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
He meant being the only person of color and you
knew that, yeah, And he ended up explaining that explicitly,
saying it I was one person of color out of
twenty therapists and a guide, and that was so touching
because I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before.
(08:03):
And probably day three, we were on break getting coffee
and teas and such, and there were two ladies that
were part of the training who asked me, did they
prepare you that you'd be the only person of color
before you arrived at the program? And once again I
was kind of taken aback of, like no. And also
(08:26):
it made me sad of like, why didn't I consider that?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And these people.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Were They just cared, They were really considerate, like what's
your experience?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
How is this going?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Just that general consideration and curiosity that I feel like
this therapist that's writing into you is coming from. And
I think those are the important motivations to create that connection,
to share that consideration and find out more about people's
experience for a reason that is caring and seek out
(09:00):
connection and connecting humanity.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
And she mentioned that I'm curious when those people were
asking those questions, was there like a light bulb of wait,
I don't even think about this.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yes, absolutely, it gave me a lot of pause, and
I think That's where I realized, Oh, this is actually
kind of sad that I didn't have this consideration for
myself because this is kind of unprecedented. I've shown it
to a lot of organized events where I'm the only
person of color, and I've never received that question, that consideration,
(09:33):
any additional curiosities, even if people thought it. Like you
mentioned at the beginning, it's kind of something that people
stay away from, stray away from. It also shifted my
perception during the rest of the training of how I
don't want to use hard, but maybe it is how
much energy I'm using to be a part of a
(09:55):
largely white community and needing to research things or no
things to be able to just.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Participate and understand certain things. Yeah, but nobody's doing that
for you, no, because you're the minority in that greer.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yeah. And I just hadn't thought of it like that
until they were posing the questions, and I was like, wow,
I remember feeling such a release, in such a relief
of like, Ooh, I really don't need to try that hard.
I didn't realize like how active I am on the
inside of like overthinking before responding.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Or so you can just almost like blend in yes.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
And obviously we know I'm not blending.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
But yeah, you know, I guess it's it interesting for
you saying like, oh this is this is a new thing.
Nobody's asking these questions, so I haven't thought much about it.
With that experience in mind, are there times whether let's
stay on like I guess the therapy mental health track,
and have there been times looking back with like hindsight
of oh, really would have been nice if my therapists
would have done this, or I didn't recognize how hard
(10:57):
it was to almost over explain things to my therapist,
or be wondering if she really understands what you're saying.
Have there been times looking back with hindsight of oh,
really would have been nice if my therapists would have
done this, or I didn't recognize how hard it was
(11:20):
to almost over explain things to my therapist, or be
wondering if she really understands what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I often try to think how do I do that
in the room because I can think of specifically working
with a couple clients that are part of different religious
cultures that are very very strong and important in a
big part of their identity, and I am just really
(11:48):
mindful about saying, what is this like under that lens
or in.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
This aspect, because assuming.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, and I'm coming from a place of creating a
space for them to be safe and process and feel
their feels and also share and organized thoughts and connect
with me about it, I want to actually make the connection.
So I want to meet them.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
And I have it's a weird thing in the middle
of us that way, Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I want to make sure that I am meeting them,
and I feel like I do that by making it known,
like this is actually really important to how you view
the world and how you see yourself in the world.
So I want to help share that with you if
I can, or I want to meet you there and
have you helped me understand. And it usually goes overwheled
(12:42):
because it's coming from a place of.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Caring well, And this is where I think this topic
gets a little difficult, and I think why a lot
of people do stray away from it, because You're right,
people just decide not to talk about it because they
don't want to hurt somebody's feelings or give the wrong impression, or.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
They don't want to be uncomfort they don't want.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
To just all avoiding all kinds of discomfort. And I
want to hear what you think about this, because I
could be wrong in this thinking. My thought process is
as a helper, I mean honestly, as a human being
that lives in a world that isn't just people that
look like me. But as a helper specifically because my
job is to help people understand themselves and work on things.
(13:23):
I do have a responsibility to research and understand and
look outside of my own culture, my belief system, my
own sexuality, all that stuff, and not everybody is the same.
So not every white person's to say, not black person's
the same, not every gay person's the same, not every Christian,
not every person of Jewish person, not everybody is the same.
(13:46):
So if I research and read a book on this culture,
it is also unfair to me to assume that I
really can understand somebody from reading this book about something
that they connect with. So there is in my experience
this is not so black and white. It is. It
is my job to do my best, and it is
(14:09):
the individual's job to help me fill in the gaps
because I can't know them better than they know themselves.
I wouldn't want somebody to assume that I'm the same
because I'm white and so that I must be this way.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, I think as the helper, I think it's important
to communicate that I am interested and I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Oh, I like that I'm interested and I don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
And even when when they teach me things that i'm
learning something, I do take extra initiative and I'll be like,
I'm going to look that up, and I will, but
that it has come from them, it's something that they
care about. And again, I keep coming back to consideration
and caring because the point is in this space, I
want you to feel known and seen. I want to
(14:55):
see you.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I want to meet you the best that I can. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yes, And I'm doing that by being interested in receiving
what you're giving me that you care about and things
that are important to your identity and like you're saying,
not this larger community of maybe religion or sexuality or
race or whatever. So definitely I'm leaning on the client
(15:19):
in a way of yeah, tell me about you. I'm interested,
tell me about what you want me to know about you,
or what.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Came up for me as I was listening to you,
is what would it look like if we never assumed
things about our clients based on what they present with
on the outside. And that's not just what they look like,
but it could be like their religion or something like that,
what the state that they grew up with and stuff
like that. What would it look like if I was
interested and I also didn't assume, and so I asked
(15:50):
questions like what is important for me to know? What
is it important for me to know more about? And
where can I go do this on my own? And
where do you you need to meet me in the
middle having that be a two way street, because I
think the dynamic of therapy is weird in general, where
people come in and they think that the therapist is
like all knowing, is going to do some like vodoo
(16:11):
magic trick and like heal you. And then also therapists
were taught that we can't do work for our clients,
and so I think a lot of therapists can take
that too far where this is crazy. I don't know
if I've told you this, but at a place I
worked with, there is a therapist that there could be
a world in which this worked. It just would not
work for me as a therapist. If their client didn't
(16:31):
bring something to talk about, he would pull a book
off the shelf and just start reading in the session.
What it is that not cuckoo karasha? Where I was like,
first of all, that amn being more uncomfortable than just
giving staring at somebody blankly with eye contact like that
to me sends a message. And that's why it depends
on who you're working with. You got a really like
(16:53):
therapy is an art form where that could work for
a certain client and a certain therapist, But me that
would just be like what is she doing? And like
this is not a natural life, and there's a different
way for me to communicate, like, hey, it feels like
you come into sessions every week wanting me to do
a trick and I can't help you unless you bring
(17:15):
things to the room versus oh you know, I'm just
gonna read your book. Yes, it is crazy, So I
share that to say like there is a balance between
that where we are not the all knowing people with
anything with mental health, with people's culture, with understanding somebody's
personality or anything. We are experts in helping people become
(17:38):
experts of their own lives. Yes, is the best way
I can put it empathetic.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Other we listen, offer feedback, help you organize thoughts, behavior patterns, but.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
We don't tell you who you are.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Oh no, and that again is the relationship. Yeah, I
am interested and I don't know. Would you tell me?
Speaker 1 (17:59):
What do you think? Is the reason therapists have a
hard time saying what you just said?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
It might be what you just described of this weird
expectation that I'm coming in and this person is all
knowing or yes, I have information and training and education
and practice, and that is different. It's not in competition
with what the client's expertise is.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
I don't know if this fits for you, but looking
back on who I was as a younger therapist and
a younger human, it was way harder for me to
admit than not knowing. So me saying like I don't
know would be me admitting that I'm bad at my job,
or you're gonna think I'm stupid, or I lost the
authority that I have in the room versus now, when
(18:54):
I admit I don't know, a lot of times it
feels freeing like that I don't know because that's just
part of being a human being, and like doesn't mean
I have to stay there. Yeah, but that doesn't feel
as damaging to my reputation or my ego.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I guess that has to largely come from ego.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Anyway, I was thinking about what might be different about
my experience that allows me to practice that a lot.
And I actually think two things. A being a black therapist,
I began already seeing.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
People not of color.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, and because I started off largely seeing adolescents. If
you think about that dynamic, it's typically a parent saying, hey,
I've got this kid. These are the things that are
going on. Please see my kid, these are their issues.
I'm automatically needing to come to this kid of like curiosity,
what's actually happening? How are you? Who are you?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
What do you care about?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And I'm just thinking about both of those. Aspects of
how I started in the work were very much I
don't know, tell me yes those questions.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, there is no.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Room really egoically to be making assumptions like I did
know you could.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Do that, but you'd be a pretty about.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, yeah, I guess I could. But that actually that
did caument a lot of practice.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
In it's very natural for you to do that where
you know what speaking to like just the racial part
of that. It's not natural for white people to do that,
just how you were talking about with that story at
your training, It's not natural for us to have to
ask those questions because we're usually around people that we
have more space to assume we know the answer.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah. And all three of those people said a version
of that and made it a point to say, like,
I would like to be more considerate about that in
spaces today. Yeah, also kind of acknowledging this is a
new thing for all of us, this practice, this consideration,
this I'm going to be bold to have this conversation
(21:02):
or ask these questions. And so I think to the
person the listener that wrote in, good for you, because
I think that only creates more connection, that that makes
you a better therapist asking questions that might or might
not be discomforting. Actually, each of those people that brought
(21:23):
that up created more of a connection that I actually
felt more safe, Like I said, I felt more relieved.
I felt less energy intension of like needing to be
do or we'll show up as a different person.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
You didn't have to do this, and you took the
energy and the time to do it, and that is
more meaningful than the information that you have in your
brain at about anything. Yeah, you just attempting, whether it
to get to know me face a face or to
do this research on your own. Like that goes a
long way. And so I would say, and if you disagree,
(22:02):
I'm open. I would say for anybody who is having
fears or insecurities or just uncomfy feelings about approaching this
and not knowing what is right or wrong one every
client to individual, So what worked for one client might
not be what another client needs. But if you're coming
from a place of consideration and care, it is worth
(22:25):
stepping into that discomfort. Now the client might be like,
wait what, because, like you said, nobody is I've ever
heard this? Yes, and like what, I have almost trained
my brain to not think about this thing that you're
bringing up, So wait what? But then after that, when
you sat in it, you're like, WHOA, that was maybe
(22:45):
one of the kindest thing that's happened to me in
a long time.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yes, and I came to you saying that that made
such an impact.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, that was one of the highlights of that training.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I guess what I'm trying to say, and too many
words is it's not as important how much information you
can retain and you knowing everything, it's that you are
even putting the effort into it. And we can get
really caught up on the information versus the intent.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yes, because whatever you think you might know may not
apply to this person or they may not value that.
And so once again, you don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
So I'm going to go back to this original thing
as we kind of wrap this up. Is the quote
that was brought up in the beginning that I think
most of us that go through programs for therapy hear this.
As a therapist, it's not your client's job to educate you,
period new sentence. You do need your clients to help
them educate you about themselves. Yes, so they are not
(23:46):
our teachers on what it's like to be a black
person in the grand scheme of things, about what Christianity
is and about what the rules of that religion, we
need them. There's no way I can do all this
research to understand what that experience has been like for you.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, And I would encourage therapists to not let that idea,
because you're right, we are taught that. And I thought
a lot about that doing practicum.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
And almost we overthink it.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I did, especially my very first Muslim client. I wanted
so badly not to offend them by asking questions, and
I think that was a disservice in the beginning. Fortunately,
our relationship carried forward and I got comfortable asking, like,
(24:34):
teach me this or I'll look this up because I
want to know you and again what this means for you,
and what this means for what you're bringing into session,
and what lends this is for your relationships and all
of that. So I would like to encourage therapists to
not let that limit how you are going to be curious, Yeah,
(24:57):
and getting to know your client.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
So they asked for books, podcasts, online classes, all of
that recommendations. Do you have any Rex, Yes, I think
this is a hard question to answer. This is because
to educate on.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
What like, I have the perfect book to start. Okay,
it's called The Person You Mean to Be.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
So of this book The Person you Mean to Be?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yes, I actually read it during It had to have
been a cultural diversity class in graduate school. It is
based on just helping people to see their biases.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
And be a human. Oh I love that. Okay, it's
such a good book, adding to my cart right now.
I've said this before on the podcast, but I think
one of the biggest disappointments I have looking back on
my education part of becoming a therapist is my diversity
class because it was like we were all kind of
faking it.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
That was actually the hardest class during school. It created
so much division because it was just heart.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I feel like our class didn't create the vision because
nobody was being honest. It almost just was like, yeah,
that sure, totally. And then but we didn't really think
about things, so like I didn't feel that I can
want to speak for myself. I didn't feel challenged and
allow myself to be as challenged. And maybe it's because
that space didn't feel safe enough. I don't know, but
I wish I could redo that class, if I could
(26:19):
redo one class. What year was this, probably twenty fourteen.
The climate was at we weren't as open as an
even just either.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
This is probably like twenty nineteen, twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
And it was rough, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And what was the really aggressive book microaggressions?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
It was just hard.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
It was very hard for why and black people to
do that together.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Oh my gosh, doing that in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Bringing it back to what we are talking about. These
things are new for our culture as a whole, and
I think that is another reason why where we're looking
at who's responsibility is it for what it's a relationship.
It's both people's responsibility.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Oh. I love that you said that. We are always
as human beings looking for where to lay responsibility or blame.
And it's shared most of the time. Yeah, that is
going to be a shared anytime you're in relationship, it's shared. Yeah.
I think that is helpful to hear.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
And hopefully that's what therapists are walking away with here.
Of doesn't mean it's always equal, but it's always shared. Yeah,
we're sharing it and being curious and being considerate typically
goes well. Yeah, so have some confidence in that it does.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Typically go okay. Well, thank you for having this conversation.
If you have any questions, feedback, comments, anything for the
podcast in general or for Stacy in general, you can
send those to Katherine at Unique Therapy podcast dot com.
You can follow us at you Need Therapy and at
(28:04):
three Quarts Therapy on Instagram. And I hope you guys
have the day you need to have and I will
be back with you on Wednesday for couch talks. Bye.
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