August 19, 2024 • 35 mins
This week we revisit the chat Kat had with Justin Baldoni (@justinbaldoni) because she mentioned it on last weeks episode, and they talk about some of the harmful messages that our culture's idea of masculinity creates. Justin came out with a book, titled Man Enough: Undefining My Masculinity, and started the Man Enough Podcast in 2021 in an effort to further undefine masculinity and offer freedom to those who have been hurt by the current popular beliefs of what being a man looks like. In this episode you will hear about some of those beliefs and gain a better understanding of why we need to start shifting how we view masculinity.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up on you need therapy.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I know a ton of men with eating disorders that
just say that they're fasting.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
You know, look at our diets, look at the way
we're look at the way we're eating, and the way
that we are tracking calories and all of these types
of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life.
Which is why I talk in the book about the
why ladder. When you're doing it for a specific outcome,
and that outcome isn't your job or truly related to
your happiness, there's an underlying issue there that you're not
(00:27):
actually dealing with. And yet, you know, we follow Instagram
influencers and all these diet coaches and all these types
of things. In reality, like I know a lot of
these guys.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
That are really unhappy.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know
something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's
probably because it's uncomfortable to know.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
If you can die before you die, then you can
really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought
I was insane, yeah, and I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Because there was no Internet.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything
is hard.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first
and a licensed therapist second, and right now I'm inviting
you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become
more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the
world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys,
and welcome back to another new episode of You Need
(01:31):
Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat, and I am especially
excited that you are here listening today. Now, before we
get into the episode, if you are new or just
need a reminder just so you are familiar with what
goes on here. I am a licensed therapist and I
own my own practice in Nashville where I do therapy
(01:53):
all day long. But this podcast is not therapy, and
I just think it's important to remind us all that
this is not a replacement, nor is it therapy. But
it is a resource and a really helpful resource that
sometimes might help encourage you to start therapy if that
is something that you believe you need. Now today I
(02:15):
am giving you, guys a little throwback episode to what
I believe in what I'm going to go down in
history saying is my favorite interview and therefore, episode to date,
you are going to hear a conversation that I had
with the one, the only Justin Baldoni. And if you
(02:37):
are unfamiliar with him, you are missing out on so,
so so much. You might recognize him from playing Raphael
on Jane the Virgin, or you might be more familiar
with him now playing Ryle in the film adaptation of
It Ends with Us which is in theaters now. However,
(02:59):
that's actually not how I found out about him or
learned about him. I learned about who he was from
his book Man Enough, which blew my mind. This book,
I'm not exaggerating, chapter by chapter, page by page, This
book was opening up and blowing my mind. So back
in twenty twenty one when this book came out, and
(03:20):
when I got my hands on it, I thought to myself,
wouldn't it be cool to have Justin on Union therapy?
And why didn't you know? He agreed to do it,
which also blew my mind, And I was so grateful
for he was such a fun person to interview, such
an easy person to interview, such a kind person. I
could go on it, on and on now. Justin has
(03:41):
been seeking out these kinds of vulnerable conversations and uncomfortable
conversations for years now through his Instagram TV series, which
led him to a viral ted Talk, which then led
him to the book Man Enough that I Am Obsessed With,
which then led him to hosting his Man Enough podcast,
(04:01):
which is with his friend Jamie and also with another
fellow UNI Therapy guest of years past, Liz Plank, which
I highly recommend that podcast. He also, like I said, directed,
he directed, not just started. He directed the film adaptation
of Colling Hoover's book It Ends with Us, which just
(04:22):
came out and I actually went and saw it last night,
which is why I thought to myself, I think it
might be a really good time to release this episode
that I recorded with Justin back in twenty twenty one.
Justin's work continues to inspire me, and I am not
just saying this. Everything he does really does lead me
(04:43):
to learning something else about either myself, humanity, men, women.
In the film It Ends with Us explores the complexities
of domestic violence, and I really am grateful for people
like him who want to help the world see an
un stand to the best we can those complexities. And
(05:04):
just a fyi this episode, this conversation was recorded a
couple of years ago, so we don't talk about the film,
but that would be another interesting conversation Justin, if you're
out there, I'm open to it. If you are. Justin
describes himself as a student and not an expert. But
I am very serious when I say he is somebody
who has really opened up my eyes and taught me
(05:24):
so much through his work and through the conversations that
he continues to have with people all over the place.
And he's not afraid to say the hard stuff. He's
not afraid to hear the hard stuff. And I'm someone
who is trying to and continuing to learn over and
over that I need to hear and sometimes I need
to be the person that says the hard things as well.
(05:45):
But I think if it's between me and you, I
need to be better about hearing the hard things. So
I hope you guys enjoy this episode. I hope that
you are open to hearing whatever it is that you
need to hear in the conversation we have today. And
before we get into it, you might just want to
take a couple of deep breaths, because some of the
things we talk about are things that you might bump
(06:07):
up against and you might have some resistance, and that's okay,
that's part of the process of learning and growing. So
take it a couple of deep breaths and let those out,
and honestly, you might want to keep doing that throughout
the episode. But I hope you enjoy this conversation as
much as I did and got as much out of it,
or get as much out of it as I did.
So here is my conversation with Justin Baldoni. Okay, so
(06:34):
let's start with this question. So reading the book and
then also listening to your podcast and also your Ted
Talk that was I think did that kind of spearhead
all of this.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, I started shooting The Man and of TV digital
series and then I did the Ted Talk. But the
Ted Talk really is what kind of took everything.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Off, and I took off and inspired me to go deeper.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
So a lot of what you are talking about is
talking about masculinity, the way the world set up in
our culture and a lot of the issues with it.
But at the same time, the way that our culture
is set up around just like men and patriarchy, and
a lot of that benefits you in a lot of ways.
So I want to hear what has been like for
you to kind of break some of that down, especially
(07:18):
because I think depending on who you are and where
you are in your life, there's probably people that are like,
don't mess this up for us. You know, there's probably
some men that are like, well, this is working for
us because if we have our horse blinders on, we
don't have to pay attention to a lot of stuff
that you're exposing. So what has that process been like
for you.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
It's a great question, not easy or fun or comfortable.
But before you.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Even get into that, the idea of there's like a
lot of men that would say, don't mess this up
for us is I think part of the issue in
that men aren't saying that because most men don't think.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
They're at an advantage.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
So it be controversial, but I just believe in the
goodness of men, and I don't believe that men are
out there thinking that this world benefits me. I'm at
an advantage and therefore I want to keep my power
because that would be assuming that most men are not
good men, and they're power hungry and they want to
stay dominant. I honestly believe, especially the men who are
(08:22):
kind of anti this movement of equality or keep men
strong and all this type of stuff, I honestly believe
those men have the most fear and that they they
are looking at their lives and saying, my life is
freaking hard.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I'm hurting, I'm struggling.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Work's not going great, you know, trying to make this
work with my wife. I'm working too much. I don't
get to see my kids. Like I think that men
are like, this isn't working for me. Don't tell me
I'm at a disadvantage, or don't tell me I'm at
an advantage. Don't tell me that I have privilege. I
think that that's where it comes from. I don't think
it's like I have all this power this world benefits me,
(08:58):
and therefore like this guy and stop talking about gender equality,
because what we know about privilege is that for folks
with privilege, equality can feel like oppression, right, Martin Luther King.
So in terms of just this movement itself and like equality,
I think the issue is that, yes, as a man,
I have privileges from birth, especially as a white straight man,
(09:19):
that women don't have that black men don't have. Right,
gay men or trans or gender not conforming folks don't have.
But I was not taught to recognize that privilege as
a man. I was just brought up in this society
and told this is how it goes, and this is
how it works, and this is what you have to
do if you want to succeed or win. And the
problem with having that type of privilege in a patriarchal
(09:41):
society is that I am not allowed to hurt. So
while yes, there's tremendous benefits to being a man, as
an example, I don't have to worry about being sexually
assaulted or raped when I walk down the street. Right,
I in general know that just from being born and
if I have an education, I'll make more money than women.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Right, there's innate privileges that come with it.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
But what doesn't come with it is the space to
hurt and to be in distress and to be depressed
and to be confused and to be and to have
anxiety and to be a human being in our culture.
So there's like, there's clear benefits, but I actually believe
that while it's benefiting me, it's actually hurting me more
than it's helping me because all of the benefits I'm
(10:25):
getting from the patriarchy are material benefits. The emotional tax
that I have to pay for that I believe is
far higher than the benefits, which is why I'm doing
this work. Why Yeah, I didn't sets out reluctantly, which
is why I ended up writing the book reluctantly because
I know that by coming out and challenging this system
(10:47):
and by saying this isn't working for anybody, there are
nevily going to be men who don't recognize that they
are even hurting, who don't recognize that they have innate privilege,
who are going to then use what they have been
taught the power dynamic of the patriarchy to attack me
(11:07):
and bring me down and make me feel less than that's,
of course, the reluctance to doing this type of work.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Did that answer your question a little bit?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
That more than answers my question. Everything you said was
both It's hard. I think part of it's hard for
me to hear that because that was my thoughts, in
my bias, in my own mind coming through asking that question. One,
because I'm not a guy and I'm not a man,
and it's making me think about the difference between as
a therapist, I work primarily with women, not because that's
(11:36):
what I ask to work with, because the majority of
people going to therapy are women.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And another thing is my specialty is eating disorders and body.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
And oh so cool.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah. So the other thing about that is I have
a caseload of I probably have forty people in my caseload.
I think there's three guys. Of those three guys, none
of them are talking about body image or eating or
anything like that. And it's also not because men don't
have that problem. No, it's because men aren't talking about
that as much. Which to go back to the chapter
(12:09):
that I'm rereading, it's your Body Image one two.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
That's a really deep chapter.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
It's so good. But I think everything you're saying is
talking about that. You're right, it's not working because to me,
I wish that everybody felt the same amount of invitation
to go feel their stuff and work on their stuff
and be vulnerable and talk to somebody about hard things
and be honest. And what you're saying is like, men
(12:34):
don't feel that invitation. This isn't working for us, and
so yeah, maybe we do make more money or we
have this, or we have that, but the real meat
of what life is about, we don't have as much
space in that realm.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
No, there's no space. And it makes this makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
There's very few men in your practice, especially as it relates.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
To eating disorders, because what.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
We've done is we've disguised eating disorders as a as
a sign of masculinity. Like if you look at how
we as men are told we should look when our
bodies should look like, you really can't get there unless
you have some form of an eating disorder, right, thank you.
(13:17):
We even disguised, like I know a ton of men
with eating disorders that just say that they're fasting.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
You know, look at our diets, look at the way
we're look at the way we're eating, and the way
that we are tracking calories and all of these types
of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life.
Which is why I talk in the book about the
why ladder. When you're doing it for a specific outcome,
and that and that outcome isn't your job or truly
related to your happiness.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
There's an underlying issue there that you're not actually dealing with.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And yet you know we follow Instagram influencers and all
these diet coaches and all these types of things. In reality,
like I know a lot of these guys that are
really unhappy.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
They are they need therapy.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And they repress it and they push it down, and
they they weigh and they measure every tiny thing that
they eat, and they obsess over their food and if
they have a bad meal, they'll fast for twenty four hours.
Like this is all very normalized types of things, but
we've normalized it because it's a sign of masculinity, it's
a sign of an attractive body, when in reality, there's
a very high chance probability that there's some eating disorder
(14:19):
stuff happening there. And on top of that, we have
image disorders and body like body dysmorphia and muscless morphia,
all these types of things that so many of us
men have. But we've just chucked that up to being men.
This is just a part of it, and we're not
actually talking about it. And also, finally, as it relates
to like the idea that there's no men in therapy
or in your practice, women have had to lean on
(14:41):
each other and build community to cope. I believe with
the stress and tact of what it means to be
a woman in society. Women have had to be there
for each other because men can't be there for each other.
And therefore, in addition to all the bullshit that women
have to put up with on a daily basis from men,
men also then put women in a place where they
(15:03):
have to be their therapists and confide in them. So
not only are women holding all of the female things
that happen to them on a daily basis, the microaggressions,
the fear of sexual assault or rape, and the stress
of trying to raise a family and be mothers and
and get in and basically give herself to everybody, she
now has to also hold the weight of her man
(15:24):
because her man can't talk to men or anybody else
because it's so unmanly and unmasculine, and the only place
a woman can go is other women. So therefore community
was built, which is why, like, I know, you know
so many women who on like you know, they see
another woman and boom, it's how are you? What's happening
in You're likefe tell me are you okay? And men
are just like, let's just avoid that conversation forever. Let's
(15:47):
just watch the game, drink a beer, and whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Here's my question for you. What happens when a guy
does do that? Like what happens when a guy goes
over to somebody's house and maybe you're going to watch
a game and you're like, hey, before we put the
game on. I don't know if men do this? Like,
how are you.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Men don't do that?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
The problem is is that from a very early age,
I don't want to say all men, but a vast
majority of men from my research and both in my research,
both in my personal life and also actual research, are
taught that that's not a safe thing to do. And
that happens because early on, when we're kids, when we're
(16:27):
in situations that would require vulnerability, or when our bodies
are changing, or if something happens, oftentimes the thing that
happens turns into shaming and like public shaming and making
fun of and humiliation, And what we're taught then is
that men are not safe spaces. That if I'm going to,
as an example, like you know, who knows, piss in
(16:49):
my pants or something as a kid, or pee in
the bed and I'm going to sleep over, then those
boys will go tell other boys, and I'll get made
fun of at school. So the vulnerability, the thing, right,
the thing that I'm struggling with as a kid, will
then be used against me. Why because as boys were
taught that we have to one up each other in
(17:10):
order to gain power and popularity. Right, So the ladder
of achieving that this mythical alpha status, even as a
young boy, is using other people, put putting other boys
down to build yourself up. That's this mirage of the patriarchy.
That's how that's what it's built on. It's this one upmanship.
(17:31):
And so God knows whether you're like, you know, the
kid that shat on the bus, you know, at an
accident when he was seven. Well, we know that boys
take that and keep calling that kid that name until
their seniors.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
In high school forever, forever. You get labeled these things.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I remember I remember being what was I maybe eleven,
eleven or twelve or something, and my body was changing
like all the other kids, and I was getting these
like you know, the wind could blow and I would
get an erection. This is what happens to young boys.
Nobody talks to us about it. Our parents don't talk
to us about it. We don't learn about it in school,
we don't learn how to deal with it. So suddenly
(18:08):
there's just shame around it, and our bodies are changing
their shame around it.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
We haven't discovered sex yet.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
By eleven or twelve, I had actually already been introduced
to porn, although my body hadn't really started changing so
much yet that I was able to use it to
like masturbate or things like that. But we're exposed to
these things at a young age. And I remember being
with another guy and no thought, no anything. My body
is just like I just got an erection, And I
remember tucking it into my pants and making a joke
(18:35):
about it because he's another boy and he's going through puberty,
and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Oh, he'll get it.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
And instead he went to school and started a rumor
that I touched myself around him, and I didn't know
what happened, And all of.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
A sudden, everybody was laughing at me.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
When I got off the bus the next day, and
this was my good friend, and I was like, what's happening?
And people were and girls were laughing and guys laughing,
and they were calling me names. And luckily I had
so many friends that were girls. I said, what's going
on in whispered to me and they said, he said
that you were touching yourself in front of him. And
I was mortified because I wasn't. I literally was adjusting
(19:07):
my eleven year old direction. And here was this boy
who knew that if you went to school the next
day and made fun of me, that everybody would you
him as more powerful or popular or whatever it is.
So at eleven years old, I knew, boom, men are
not safe. Boys are not safe.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Girls are safe, and that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
So that's in us and every man has their own
version of that, their own experience, but that happens over
and over and over and over again in our lives.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
So so much was just brought up in that I'm
sitting here thinking about, like, so, then what do we do?
Because you're bringing back a memory for me of working
in a treatment center. I worked in the eating disorder program,
but there's tons of different programs here. I worked with women,
but I was I started a men's body image group
because I was like, I think people might want to come,
and little by little, one guy came in, the next
(20:00):
three guys came the next week. Finally there's like ten
twelve guys, which was a CAP And one of the
guys said to me one day because I was like,
do you guys like want to come here? Like do
we want me to keep doing this? And he was like, Kat,
this is the group and these people are in its
residential treatment, so they're in groups in therapy all day long,
all week long. He said, I look forward to this
group every week now. It is the group that I
(20:21):
feel the most safe. And I don't necessarily know that
that was because there's a female running. It could have
had something to do with that. But I think the
other thing is the group was created to talk about
things that weren't talked about in their house, in their
in their program. It was like the women's issue. So
that memory just got brought up for me as you
were talking, because they could have been talking about that
(20:42):
in their groups. They could have been talking about body
I mentioned in their group, but obviously they didn't feel
safe to do that because somebody would have made fun
of them, I'm sure, or made a joke or said
something or looked at them weird. And in that group,
nobody was doing that because everybody had the same shared issue.
So long winded way, what are we supposed to do
to help men and feel safe with other men so
then the women aren't exhausted and the men actually can
(21:04):
get their needs met.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
There's two things that I can think of.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
One of them actually is and unfortunately comes back to women. Yeah,
because women are not immune from the shaming response either.
It's really tricky. So you know, Bell Hooks is, I'm
sure you read writes about female misogyny and I don't
believe it's intentional. I'm sure there are some women that
are absolutely misogynistic because for a lot of reasons, right,
(21:28):
But it's very surprising how many quote unquote woke women
actually have a lot of their own internal misogyny. And
what that looks like is, I think a combination of
a lot of things. One is, we've all been raised
the same way men and women have been socialized in
the same way. Women have been socialized to view men
in the same way that men have been socialized to
view men, and to be themselves. So there is a
(21:50):
part of many women, while they desire I believe, vulnerability
in a man, there's a part of them that has
been trained to be disgusted by it.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Well, Yeah, it's like in my head, I just thought
like be vulnerable, but like not too much.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Well, and that's like I want.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I want my partner to cry, but I don't want
him to be like two whiny.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yea and so and what is that line? Right? And
that's a really tricky thing.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Glennon Doyle writes about this and untamed the responsibility that
women have here and really this is a woman's conversation.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
I can't have the conversation for women.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
What I can tell women who are listening, assuming that
most of your listeners are women, is that be very
mindful of the moment a man opens up to you
and your reaction, because your reaction will train him whether
or not it's safe for him to open up. Because
if he can't open up with men, and he does
(22:42):
finally open up with a woman and the woman loses
attraction or tells him to man up, which has happened
many times. Yeah, you're creating a situation where a man
literally has nowhere to go.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Now.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I'm not pro men, as I said earlier, putting their
shit on women, but we have to start somewhere, and
there's nowhere for us to go. The idea of going
to a therapist is like climbing Mount Everest for many
men who have never trained, like, it's not going up
and hiking your local mountain, it's jumping right into Mount Everest,
talking to another dude, calling another guy and being like,
(23:19):
hey man, I'm struggling. That does not exist in our vocabulary,
which is why so many of us men go to
women and have made women are therapists. The difference is
how can women hold some of that without allowing that
boundary to be crossed so that they don't become the
therapist and what ends up happening? As I've had, I
can't even tell you how many messages I have from
(23:40):
men who have watched the Ted Talker, read the book
now and have opened up to women and the women
have rejected them. It just happens all the time, and
it's not even the woman's fault, because the woman has
been told this part of a man. If they do this,
they guy's a pussy, that guy's of this, that guy's
he's weak and he and then what do we tell
women that a weak.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Man can't protect them? Why? Because women need to be
protected from who from men?
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So it goes back to it's like I have so
much empathy and compassion especially for women here, because it's
not your fault.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
You need a strong man to protect you from other men.
So the idea of vulnerability, when it comes into the equation,
it makes women feel unsafe in this strange way. And
so what I would ask is, like, read bell.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Hooks, Read Glenn and Doyle's book, Read Untamed about especially
her chapter I think It's Boys where she talks about it.
See if you can push past that initial response and
hold it for a moment, and then let's like not
train our men like the Pavlov style to run away
from vulnerability. The second piece of this is it's not
just to snap your fingers and men can create safe
(24:48):
spaces for men.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
But the only way it will start to work is.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
If there are super badass strong men who are willing
to start to be vulnerable. Which is why I personally
believe if we were to like flip the idea of
these masculine traits on their head, you'd find that the
bravest man, sure, like, great, you trained, you go, you
run into a burning building and save people's lives. Awesome,
(25:15):
But can you run into the burning building of your
depression and share that with another man, I would argue
that the emotional bravery is true bravery.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
You're talking about something that Berne Brown used to talk
a lot about in the beginning of Herself Too, is
the difference between bravery and courage, and bravery being the
kind of person who will run into a burning and building,
and courage is the kind of person who will show
up with their whole heart. That's what you're talking about.
And I think that's really important because I mean that
last part you said about like women need men to
(25:47):
be manly, masculine and strong and all of that because
we need men to protect the whole cycles like we
need those men to protect us, but we need those
men to protect us because of the whole thing. And
the first yes, it's wild to me, which also, this
(26:09):
is one of my favorite quotes that I've pulled from
your book. And I might not say exactly correct, but
you said something, okay, great, so it was in the
body of a chapter. It's my favorite chapter so far.
But you said something like looking strong is in a
way to be strong, but a way to avoid being weak.
And I think that that's kind of what you're talking
right here, Like the person that runs into a burning
building to save somebody. That person looks really freaking strong,
(26:33):
and maybe they are in some aspect, but like, what
are are you doing that to look like a man
because you feel like you have to because of xyz
or or or why are you even doing that? And
then in your life and your relationship and your job
and your whatever, are you able to show up? Are
you able to run into the burning building of the
conflict that you guys have exactly?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And I and let's just be mindful of course, because firefighters,
you know, please, officers you know, of military folks, that
is extreme bravery. It is and I don't want to
say like one is more important than the other. But
what you find oftentimes is is these professions are professions,
and they're high risk professions. But we've been taught as
(27:17):
men and boys as a young age that those are
the professions that equate to a certain masculine status.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Like those are the heroes.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Right, So there's always this I think unmet need of
wanting to grow up and be and be seen as
that we're told to take physical risks. It hurts us
and it kills us, and it also is the thing
that makes us brave because that young boys were taught
you're a boy, you're a man. Physical risks take them,
so you grow up and you become these these these professions,
these you know, responders, these heroes. But can we also
(27:49):
do that in our personal life, which is what you're saying,
and that cycle of like training men that this is
what it's this is what it means for you to
be a man, this is this is the type of job,
this is you know, it's like we have freaking calendars
of firefighters because women like google at them because they're
sexy in uniform and they risk their lives and all
of these things.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
But like, are they talking about their feelings? Are they depressed?
Are they what therapist's office are they in?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
You know, look, there's just there's so much repressed anxiety
and fear and frustration that so many of us men
are walking around with that we don't have an outlet
for so so it goes into our work, It ends
up as work addiction, It goes into us taking more
physical risks and we don't have any place to put it.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
And you're helping kind of end that cycle. So I
do want to say thank you because I think that
when you were saying, like, we actually do need strong
men that are willing to take the risk to do this,
to show up because somebody has to start. Like somebody
has to start. And that brings me to my very
favorite quote of all time, and so Margaret me quote
and she said, never doubt that a small group of
committed citizens can change the world. In fact, it's the
(28:55):
only thing that ever has. And that's one of the
reasons I was like, I need to talk to you
because literally what you're doing, like you're starting with these
conversations on Instagram and then a Ted talk and then
you're writing this book and it started with a lot
of what I'm hearing, a lot of women actually leaning
into the work you're doing. And then from that then
men are actually being invited in. And so you start
(29:15):
your one person who has started kind of like a
huge shift. And I don't know if it feels huge
to you, but it's huge, like it really is.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Appreciate it. It's a I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I always try to go back to the one person,
the one man, And every day I'm getting a few
of these one men who are writing saying something or
saying that it shifts something you know, and I get
to keep having these moments every day where it's like
it is working, it is helping, it is making a difference.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Our society focuses so much.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
On mass change, like mass impact, how many people. It's like,
we grow up right now, it's like, not enough to
affect one person, you have.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
To affect millions or what are you doing with your life?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
And that's not at all, especially as being raised in
the buy of faith, it's not at all Our view
all back to how to be a humble servant and
affect that one person.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
So even in this world where.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, I have millions of followers and all of these
types of things, it's about the one man because that
one man at any given point in time is interacting
with how many women on a daily basis, how many
other men?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
How many you know? Does he have children? This is
how we change the world. You have to do that,
you have to So it's very it's very tricky, it's confusing.
I still struggle with it.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
It's still hard for me to reach out to other
men because then when you get to a point when
you're known as that kind of person, you're like, shit.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
You know, all these men look up to me. Now,
even in my.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Group of friends, it's like a how do I tell
them that I'm struggling with this while I'm doing all
of these things, you know, because we're never immune to
It's why I wrote the book as a student, as
a teacher, So it's all in us. It's my socialization
is in me. So I could be writing a book
and giving ted talks and talking about these things and
yet still struggling to call my friend if I'm struggling
(30:58):
with something, and that's just being human, Like, we don't
just reach the other side. It's a constant daily practice.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
You're talking to a therapist who goes to therapy, So.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I get that therapist should.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I agree, But I get I that all that you're
saying is like, yeah, I struggle every day with stuff,
and I have to go get myself checked out. And
I have to make sure that I'm like staying in
line with what my beliefs are, and I have to
make sure that I am getting help and feedback because
as somebody who like you're in a helping profession now,
as somebody who's helping others, you've got to check yourself.
(31:29):
So I just want it to wrap all this up
once say thank you for all of what you're doing.
I will promise at one point I will finish the book,
but I really don't want to. Well, but the good
news is if I don't, you now have a podcast,
which is awesome. I listen to Matthew McConaughey's episode this
morning while I was getting ready, So that was really
(31:49):
really interesting and good. Yeah, but so many of those
episodes have been awesome. So if you guys that are
listening are hearing something, you're like, I need more of this,
Like you've already heard me talk about his book, But
go get the book and listen to the Man Enough podcast.
And where else can they find and hear you?
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Social media the love hate relationships I have with it,
But yeah, social media, But I think the Man of
Podcasts is a great It's a great place. Right now.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
You're gonna love this as a therapist. I just had
a deep conversation with my dad.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Oh well, just so you know, I already listened to it.
I listened to it last week. I think when it
came I don't know if it was when it came out.
I listened to it on road chip.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
It was yeah last week.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, And we're just we're trying to go there. My
wife's coming on, my wife. We just had my wife on,
She's coming on next week. We have some amazing, amazing folks.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
The conversation you had with your dad was honest, like
it was good, and what you have done is modeled
because I think a lot of people, especially when I'm
in therapy with them, I'm like, we're talking about how
to have some of those conversations that you had, and
it's so like people can't even imagine it. What do
you mean? I'm gonna be honest with my dad and
tell him how he hurt me, but also to say
thank you, Like what do you mean? And you're giving
(32:55):
like an example of what that can look like. And
I think that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Need samples right now, and we just unfortunately have so
few of them. I don't do it perfectly. I mean
there's times on this podcast where I'm learning and I
and it's uncomfortable and I make mistakes and Liz calls
me on it.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
You know, I have a female co host, and.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
That's part of this process is we have to be
willing to make mistakes, and men don't like making mistakes,
especially publicly.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Or admitting we don't know the answer.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
And a huge part of this and why I'm doing
it is just to show that, like we can stay
in the room. Like you can be told you're wrong,
and you could be hold you are sexist or CHAUVENI
stick and it doesn't mean that you're a bad person,
doesn't mean that you're all bad.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, that part, we can stay in the room. What
you just said, Like we can mess up and be
almost called out to an extent or approached or confronted
and we can still be good people. Like we can
stay in the room.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
It's just canceled.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
You know, it's not just over for you because you're Yeah,
if you make a mistake, it's oh shit, I made
a mistake.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
I didn't think of it that way. I'm sorry, Boom.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
It's amazing, Right, we can be human beings and be
messy and messed up and still have the opportunity to
be friends or require So.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
That's what we're working on.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
And you know, I'm grateful for folks like you that
are doing this work, that are trying to get the
message out. And if you're a man listening to this,
just know that, or if you're a woman, listening to this,
and you want your man to listen to this, and
now you're a man listening to this, just know that
you have an ocean of depth in you and you
(34:29):
are so much more than what the world has put
on you. And the feelings and thoughts and dreams and
sensitivities you have don't make you less of a man.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
They make you more of a man because they make
you a human. And at the end of the.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Day, our job as men, I believe, is to figure
out how to be the best human beings we possibly can.
And that starts with like using these ideas of what
it means to be manly, to be masculine, and going
in and going deep and getting comfortable and the uncomfortable,
and exploring who we are as individuals and showing up
and staying in the room. And I appreciate you listening.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Okay, that was beautiful, So if you are anybody listening
to that, rewind that and listen to it again. That
was amazing. So we're going to end on that because
that was a good way to kind of close it out.
So thank you for being here. And yeah, everybody listening,
you can follow us at at you need therapy podcast,
Get the book, listen to the podcast Man Enough, Man
Enough Podcast, and thank you for being thank you.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
We all need therapy.
Coming up on you need therapy.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I know a ton of men with eating disorders that
just say that they're fasting.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
You know, look at our diets, look at the way
we're look at the way we're eating, and the way
that we are tracking calories and all of these types
of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life.
Which is why I talk in the book about the
why ladder. When you're doing it for a specific outcome,
and that outcome isn't your job or truly related to
your happiness, there's an underlying issue there that you're not
(00:27):
actually dealing with. And yet, you know, we follow Instagram
influencers and all these diet coaches and all these types
of things. In reality, like I know a lot of
these guys.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
That are really unhappy.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know
something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's
probably because it's uncomfortable to know.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
If you can die before you die, then you can
really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought
I was insane, yeah, and I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Because there was no Internet.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything
is hard.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first
and a licensed therapist second, and right now I'm inviting
you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become
more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the
world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys,
and welcome back to another new episode of You Need
(01:31):
Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat, and I am especially
excited that you are here listening today. Now, before we
get into the episode, if you are new or just
need a reminder just so you are familiar with what
goes on here. I am a licensed therapist and I
own my own practice in Nashville where I do therapy
(01:53):
all day long. But this podcast is not therapy, and
I just think it's important to remind us all that
this is not a replacement, nor is it therapy. But
it is a resource and a really helpful resource that
sometimes might help encourage you to start therapy if that
is something that you believe you need. Now today I
(02:15):
am giving you, guys a little throwback episode to what
I believe in what I'm going to go down in
history saying is my favorite interview and therefore, episode to date,
you are going to hear a conversation that I had
with the one, the only Justin Baldoni. And if you
(02:37):
are unfamiliar with him, you are missing out on so,
so so much. You might recognize him from playing Raphael
on Jane the Virgin, or you might be more familiar
with him now playing Ryle in the film adaptation of
It Ends with Us which is in theaters now. However,
(02:59):
that's actually not how I found out about him or
learned about him. I learned about who he was from
his book Man Enough, which blew my mind. This book,
I'm not exaggerating, chapter by chapter, page by page, This
book was opening up and blowing my mind. So back
in twenty twenty one when this book came out, and
(03:20):
when I got my hands on it, I thought to myself,
wouldn't it be cool to have Justin on Union therapy?
And why didn't you know? He agreed to do it,
which also blew my mind, And I was so grateful
for he was such a fun person to interview, such
an easy person to interview, such a kind person. I
could go on it, on and on now. Justin has
(03:41):
been seeking out these kinds of vulnerable conversations and uncomfortable
conversations for years now through his Instagram TV series, which
led him to a viral ted Talk, which then led
him to the book Man Enough that I Am Obsessed With,
which then led him to hosting his Man Enough podcast,
(04:01):
which is with his friend Jamie and also with another
fellow UNI Therapy guest of years past, Liz Plank, which
I highly recommend that podcast. He also, like I said, directed,
he directed, not just started. He directed the film adaptation
of Colling Hoover's book It Ends with Us, which just
(04:22):
came out and I actually went and saw it last night,
which is why I thought to myself, I think it
might be a really good time to release this episode
that I recorded with Justin back in twenty twenty one.
Justin's work continues to inspire me, and I am not
just saying this. Everything he does really does lead me
(04:43):
to learning something else about either myself, humanity, men, women.
In the film It Ends with Us explores the complexities
of domestic violence, and I really am grateful for people
like him who want to help the world see an
un stand to the best we can those complexities. And
(05:04):
just a fyi this episode, this conversation was recorded a
couple of years ago, so we don't talk about the film,
but that would be another interesting conversation Justin, if you're
out there, I'm open to it. If you are. Justin
describes himself as a student and not an expert. But
I am very serious when I say he is somebody
who has really opened up my eyes and taught me
(05:24):
so much through his work and through the conversations that
he continues to have with people all over the place.
And he's not afraid to say the hard stuff. He's
not afraid to hear the hard stuff. And I'm someone
who is trying to and continuing to learn over and
over that I need to hear and sometimes I need
to be the person that says the hard things as well.
(05:45):
But I think if it's between me and you, I
need to be better about hearing the hard things. So
I hope you guys enjoy this episode. I hope that
you are open to hearing whatever it is that you
need to hear in the conversation we have today. And
before we get into it, you might just want to
take a couple of deep breaths, because some of the
things we talk about are things that you might bump
(06:07):
up against and you might have some resistance, and that's okay,
that's part of the process of learning and growing. So
take it a couple of deep breaths and let those out,
and honestly, you might want to keep doing that throughout
the episode. But I hope you enjoy this conversation as
much as I did and got as much out of it,
or get as much out of it as I did.
So here is my conversation with Justin Baldoni. Okay, so
(06:34):
let's start with this question. So reading the book and
then also listening to your podcast and also your Ted
Talk that was I think did that kind of spearhead
all of this.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, I started shooting The Man and of TV digital
series and then I did the Ted Talk. But the
Ted Talk really is what kind of took everything.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Off, and I took off and inspired me to go deeper.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
So a lot of what you are talking about is
talking about masculinity, the way the world set up in
our culture and a lot of the issues with it.
But at the same time, the way that our culture
is set up around just like men and patriarchy, and
a lot of that benefits you in a lot of ways.
So I want to hear what has been like for
you to kind of break some of that down, especially
(07:18):
because I think depending on who you are and where
you are in your life, there's probably people that are like,
don't mess this up for us. You know, there's probably
some men that are like, well, this is working for
us because if we have our horse blinders on, we
don't have to pay attention to a lot of stuff
that you're exposing. So what has that process been like
for you.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
It's a great question, not easy or fun or comfortable.
But before you.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Even get into that, the idea of there's like a
lot of men that would say, don't mess this up
for us is I think part of the issue in
that men aren't saying that because most men don't think.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
They're at an advantage.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
So it be controversial, but I just believe in the
goodness of men, and I don't believe that men are
out there thinking that this world benefits me. I'm at
an advantage and therefore I want to keep my power
because that would be assuming that most men are not
good men, and they're power hungry and they want to
stay dominant. I honestly believe, especially the men who are
(08:22):
kind of anti this movement of equality or keep men
strong and all this type of stuff, I honestly believe
those men have the most fear and that they they
are looking at their lives and saying, my life is
freaking hard.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I'm hurting, I'm struggling.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Work's not going great, you know, trying to make this
work with my wife. I'm working too much. I don't
get to see my kids. Like I think that men
are like, this isn't working for me. Don't tell me
I'm at a disadvantage, or don't tell me I'm at
an advantage. Don't tell me that I have privilege. I
think that that's where it comes from. I don't think
it's like I have all this power this world benefits me,
(08:58):
and therefore like this guy and stop talking about gender equality,
because what we know about privilege is that for folks
with privilege, equality can feel like oppression, right, Martin Luther King.
So in terms of just this movement itself and like equality,
I think the issue is that, yes, as a man,
I have privileges from birth, especially as a white straight man,
(09:19):
that women don't have that black men don't have. Right,
gay men or trans or gender not conforming folks don't have.
But I was not taught to recognize that privilege as
a man. I was just brought up in this society
and told this is how it goes, and this is
how it works, and this is what you have to
do if you want to succeed or win. And the
problem with having that type of privilege in a patriarchal
(09:41):
society is that I am not allowed to hurt. So
while yes, there's tremendous benefits to being a man, as
an example, I don't have to worry about being sexually
assaulted or raped when I walk down the street. Right,
I in general know that just from being born and
if I have an education, I'll make more money than women.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Right, there's innate privileges that come with it.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
But what doesn't come with it is the space to
hurt and to be in distress and to be depressed
and to be confused and to be and to have
anxiety and to be a human being in our culture.
So there's like, there's clear benefits, but I actually believe
that while it's benefiting me, it's actually hurting me more
than it's helping me because all of the benefits I'm
(10:25):
getting from the patriarchy are material benefits. The emotional tax
that I have to pay for that I believe is
far higher than the benefits, which is why I'm doing
this work. Why Yeah, I didn't sets out reluctantly, which
is why I ended up writing the book reluctantly because
I know that by coming out and challenging this system
(10:47):
and by saying this isn't working for anybody, there are
nevily going to be men who don't recognize that they
are even hurting, who don't recognize that they have innate privilege,
who are going to then use what they have been
taught the power dynamic of the patriarchy to attack me
(11:07):
and bring me down and make me feel less than that's,
of course, the reluctance to doing this type of work.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Did that answer your question a little bit?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
That more than answers my question. Everything you said was
both It's hard. I think part of it's hard for
me to hear that because that was my thoughts, in
my bias, in my own mind coming through asking that question. One,
because I'm not a guy and I'm not a man,
and it's making me think about the difference between as
a therapist, I work primarily with women, not because that's
(11:36):
what I ask to work with, because the majority of
people going to therapy are women.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And another thing is my specialty is eating disorders and body.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
And oh so cool.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah. So the other thing about that is I have
a caseload of I probably have forty people in my caseload.
I think there's three guys. Of those three guys, none
of them are talking about body image or eating or
anything like that. And it's also not because men don't
have that problem. No, it's because men aren't talking about
that as much. Which to go back to the chapter
(12:09):
that I'm rereading, it's your Body Image one two.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
That's a really deep chapter.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
It's so good. But I think everything you're saying is
talking about that. You're right, it's not working because to me,
I wish that everybody felt the same amount of invitation
to go feel their stuff and work on their stuff
and be vulnerable and talk to somebody about hard things
and be honest. And what you're saying is like, men
(12:34):
don't feel that invitation. This isn't working for us, and
so yeah, maybe we do make more money or we
have this, or we have that, but the real meat
of what life is about, we don't have as much
space in that realm.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
No, there's no space. And it makes this makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
There's very few men in your practice, especially as it relates.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
To eating disorders, because what.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
We've done is we've disguised eating disorders as a as
a sign of masculinity. Like if you look at how
we as men are told we should look when our
bodies should look like, you really can't get there unless
you have some form of an eating disorder, right, thank you.
(13:17):
We even disguised, like I know a ton of men
with eating disorders that just say that they're fasting.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
You know, look at our diets, look at the way
we're look at the way we're eating, and the way
that we are tracking calories and all of these types
of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life.
Which is why I talk in the book about the
why ladder. When you're doing it for a specific outcome,
and that and that outcome isn't your job or truly
related to your happiness.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
There's an underlying issue there that you're not actually dealing with.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And yet you know we follow Instagram influencers and all
these diet coaches and all these types of things. In reality,
like I know a lot of these guys that are
really unhappy.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
They are they need therapy.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And they repress it and they push it down, and
they they weigh and they measure every tiny thing that
they eat, and they obsess over their food and if
they have a bad meal, they'll fast for twenty four hours.
Like this is all very normalized types of things, but
we've normalized it because it's a sign of masculinity, it's
a sign of an attractive body, when in reality, there's
a very high chance probability that there's some eating disorder
(14:19):
stuff happening there. And on top of that, we have
image disorders and body like body dysmorphia and muscless morphia,
all these types of things that so many of us
men have. But we've just chucked that up to being men.
This is just a part of it, and we're not
actually talking about it. And also, finally, as it relates
to like the idea that there's no men in therapy
or in your practice, women have had to lean on
(14:41):
each other and build community to cope. I believe with
the stress and tact of what it means to be
a woman in society. Women have had to be there
for each other because men can't be there for each other.
And therefore, in addition to all the bullshit that women
have to put up with on a daily basis from men,
men also then put women in a place where they
(15:03):
have to be their therapists and confide in them. So
not only are women holding all of the female things
that happen to them on a daily basis, the microaggressions,
the fear of sexual assault or rape, and the stress
of trying to raise a family and be mothers and
and get in and basically give herself to everybody, she
now has to also hold the weight of her man
(15:24):
because her man can't talk to men or anybody else
because it's so unmanly and unmasculine, and the only place
a woman can go is other women. So therefore community
was built, which is why, like, I know, you know
so many women who on like you know, they see
another woman and boom, it's how are you? What's happening
in You're likefe tell me are you okay? And men
are just like, let's just avoid that conversation forever. Let's
(15:47):
just watch the game, drink a beer, and whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Here's my question for you. What happens when a guy
does do that? Like what happens when a guy goes
over to somebody's house and maybe you're going to watch
a game and you're like, hey, before we put the
game on. I don't know if men do this? Like,
how are you.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Men don't do that?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
The problem is is that from a very early age,
I don't want to say all men, but a vast
majority of men from my research and both in my research,
both in my personal life and also actual research, are
taught that that's not a safe thing to do. And
that happens because early on, when we're kids, when we're
(16:27):
in situations that would require vulnerability, or when our bodies
are changing, or if something happens, oftentimes the thing that
happens turns into shaming and like public shaming and making
fun of and humiliation, And what we're taught then is
that men are not safe spaces. That if I'm going to,
as an example, like you know, who knows, piss in
(16:49):
my pants or something as a kid, or pee in
the bed and I'm going to sleep over, then those
boys will go tell other boys, and I'll get made
fun of at school. So the vulnerability, the thing, right,
the thing that I'm struggling with as a kid, will
then be used against me. Why because as boys were
taught that we have to one up each other in
(17:10):
order to gain power and popularity. Right, So the ladder
of achieving that this mythical alpha status, even as a
young boy, is using other people, put putting other boys
down to build yourself up. That's this mirage of the patriarchy.
That's how that's what it's built on. It's this one upmanship.
(17:31):
And so God knows whether you're like, you know, the
kid that shat on the bus, you know, at an
accident when he was seven. Well, we know that boys
take that and keep calling that kid that name until
their seniors.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
In high school forever, forever. You get labeled these things.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I remember I remember being what was I maybe eleven,
eleven or twelve or something, and my body was changing
like all the other kids, and I was getting these
like you know, the wind could blow and I would
get an erection. This is what happens to young boys.
Nobody talks to us about it. Our parents don't talk
to us about it. We don't learn about it in school,
we don't learn how to deal with it. So suddenly
(18:08):
there's just shame around it, and our bodies are changing
their shame around it.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
We haven't discovered sex yet.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
By eleven or twelve, I had actually already been introduced
to porn, although my body hadn't really started changing so
much yet that I was able to use it to
like masturbate or things like that. But we're exposed to
these things at a young age. And I remember being
with another guy and no thought, no anything. My body
is just like I just got an erection, And I
remember tucking it into my pants and making a joke
(18:35):
about it because he's another boy and he's going through puberty,
and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Oh, he'll get it.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
And instead he went to school and started a rumor
that I touched myself around him, and I didn't know
what happened, And all of.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
A sudden, everybody was laughing at me.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
When I got off the bus the next day, and
this was my good friend, and I was like, what's happening?
And people were and girls were laughing and guys laughing,
and they were calling me names. And luckily I had
so many friends that were girls. I said, what's going
on in whispered to me and they said, he said
that you were touching yourself in front of him. And
I was mortified because I wasn't. I literally was adjusting
(19:07):
my eleven year old direction. And here was this boy
who knew that if you went to school the next
day and made fun of me, that everybody would you
him as more powerful or popular or whatever it is.
So at eleven years old, I knew, boom, men are
not safe. Boys are not safe.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Girls are safe, and that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
So that's in us and every man has their own
version of that, their own experience, but that happens over
and over and over and over again in our lives.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
So so much was just brought up in that I'm
sitting here thinking about, like, so, then what do we do?
Because you're bringing back a memory for me of working
in a treatment center. I worked in the eating disorder program,
but there's tons of different programs here. I worked with women,
but I was I started a men's body image group
because I was like, I think people might want to come,
and little by little, one guy came in, the next
(20:00):
three guys came the next week. Finally there's like ten
twelve guys, which was a CAP And one of the
guys said to me one day because I was like,
do you guys like want to come here? Like do
we want me to keep doing this? And he was like, Kat,
this is the group and these people are in its
residential treatment, so they're in groups in therapy all day long,
all week long. He said, I look forward to this
group every week now. It is the group that I
(20:21):
feel the most safe. And I don't necessarily know that
that was because there's a female running. It could have
had something to do with that. But I think the
other thing is the group was created to talk about
things that weren't talked about in their house, in their
in their program. It was like the women's issue. So
that memory just got brought up for me as you
were talking, because they could have been talking about that
(20:42):
in their groups. They could have been talking about body
I mentioned in their group, but obviously they didn't feel
safe to do that because somebody would have made fun
of them, I'm sure, or made a joke or said
something or looked at them weird. And in that group,
nobody was doing that because everybody had the same shared issue.
So long winded way, what are we supposed to do
to help men and feel safe with other men so
then the women aren't exhausted and the men actually can
(21:04):
get their needs met.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
There's two things that I can think of.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
One of them actually is and unfortunately comes back to women. Yeah,
because women are not immune from the shaming response either.
It's really tricky. So you know, Bell Hooks is, I'm
sure you read writes about female misogyny and I don't
believe it's intentional. I'm sure there are some women that
are absolutely misogynistic because for a lot of reasons, right,
(21:28):
But it's very surprising how many quote unquote woke women
actually have a lot of their own internal misogyny. And
what that looks like is, I think a combination of
a lot of things. One is, we've all been raised
the same way men and women have been socialized in
the same way. Women have been socialized to view men
in the same way that men have been socialized to
view men, and to be themselves. So there is a
(21:50):
part of many women, while they desire I believe, vulnerability
in a man, there's a part of them that has
been trained to be disgusted by it.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Well, Yeah, it's like in my head, I just thought
like be vulnerable, but like not too much.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Well, and that's like I want.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I want my partner to cry, but I don't want
him to be like two whiny.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yea and so and what is that line? Right? And
that's a really tricky thing.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Glennon Doyle writes about this and untamed the responsibility that
women have here and really this is a woman's conversation.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
I can't have the conversation for women.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
What I can tell women who are listening, assuming that
most of your listeners are women, is that be very
mindful of the moment a man opens up to you
and your reaction, because your reaction will train him whether
or not it's safe for him to open up. Because
if he can't open up with men, and he does
(22:42):
finally open up with a woman and the woman loses
attraction or tells him to man up, which has happened
many times. Yeah, you're creating a situation where a man
literally has nowhere to go.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Now.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I'm not pro men, as I said earlier, putting their
shit on women, but we have to start somewhere, and
there's nowhere for us to go. The idea of going
to a therapist is like climbing Mount Everest for many
men who have never trained, like, it's not going up
and hiking your local mountain, it's jumping right into Mount Everest,
talking to another dude, calling another guy and being like,
(23:19):
hey man, I'm struggling. That does not exist in our vocabulary,
which is why so many of us men go to
women and have made women are therapists. The difference is
how can women hold some of that without allowing that
boundary to be crossed so that they don't become the
therapist and what ends up happening? As I've had, I
can't even tell you how many messages I have from
(23:40):
men who have watched the Ted Talker, read the book
now and have opened up to women and the women
have rejected them. It just happens all the time, and
it's not even the woman's fault, because the woman has
been told this part of a man. If they do this,
they guy's a pussy, that guy's of this, that guy's
he's weak and he and then what do we tell
women that a weak.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Man can't protect them? Why? Because women need to be
protected from who from men?
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So it goes back to it's like I have so
much empathy and compassion especially for women here, because it's
not your fault.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
You need a strong man to protect you from other men.
So the idea of vulnerability, when it comes into the equation,
it makes women feel unsafe in this strange way. And
so what I would ask is, like, read bell.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Hooks, Read Glenn and Doyle's book, Read Untamed about especially
her chapter I think It's Boys where she talks about it.
See if you can push past that initial response and
hold it for a moment, and then let's like not
train our men like the Pavlov style to run away
from vulnerability. The second piece of this is it's not
just to snap your fingers and men can create safe
(24:48):
spaces for men.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
But the only way it will start to work is.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
If there are super badass strong men who are willing
to start to be vulnerable. Which is why I personally
believe if we were to like flip the idea of
these masculine traits on their head, you'd find that the
bravest man, sure, like, great, you trained, you go, you
run into a burning building and save people's lives. Awesome,
(25:15):
But can you run into the burning building of your
depression and share that with another man, I would argue
that the emotional bravery is true bravery.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
You're talking about something that Berne Brown used to talk
a lot about in the beginning of Herself Too, is
the difference between bravery and courage, and bravery being the
kind of person who will run into a burning and building,
and courage is the kind of person who will show
up with their whole heart. That's what you're talking about.
And I think that's really important because I mean that
last part you said about like women need men to
(25:47):
be manly, masculine and strong and all of that because
we need men to protect the whole cycles like we
need those men to protect us, but we need those
men to protect us because of the whole thing. And
the first yes, it's wild to me, which also, this
(26:09):
is one of my favorite quotes that I've pulled from
your book. And I might not say exactly correct, but
you said something, okay, great, so it was in the
body of a chapter. It's my favorite chapter so far.
But you said something like looking strong is in a
way to be strong, but a way to avoid being weak.
And I think that that's kind of what you're talking
right here, Like the person that runs into a burning
building to save somebody. That person looks really freaking strong,
(26:33):
and maybe they are in some aspect, but like, what
are are you doing that to look like a man
because you feel like you have to because of xyz
or or or why are you even doing that? And
then in your life and your relationship and your job
and your whatever, are you able to show up? Are
you able to run into the burning building of the
conflict that you guys have exactly?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And I and let's just be mindful of course, because firefighters,
you know, please, officers you know, of military folks, that
is extreme bravery. It is and I don't want to
say like one is more important than the other. But
what you find oftentimes is is these professions are professions,
and they're high risk professions. But we've been taught as
(27:17):
men and boys as a young age that those are
the professions that equate to a certain masculine status.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Like those are the heroes.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Right, So there's always this I think unmet need of
wanting to grow up and be and be seen as
that we're told to take physical risks. It hurts us
and it kills us, and it also is the thing
that makes us brave because that young boys were taught
you're a boy, you're a man. Physical risks take them,
so you grow up and you become these these these professions,
these you know, responders, these heroes. But can we also
(27:49):
do that in our personal life, which is what you're saying,
and that cycle of like training men that this is
what it's this is what it means for you to
be a man, this is this is the type of job,
this is you know, it's like we have freaking calendars
of firefighters because women like google at them because they're
sexy in uniform and they risk their lives and all
of these things.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
But like, are they talking about their feelings? Are they depressed?
Are they what therapist's office are they in?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
You know, look, there's just there's so much repressed anxiety
and fear and frustration that so many of us men
are walking around with that we don't have an outlet
for so so it goes into our work, It ends
up as work addiction, It goes into us taking more
physical risks and we don't have any place to put it.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
And you're helping kind of end that cycle. So I
do want to say thank you because I think that
when you were saying, like, we actually do need strong
men that are willing to take the risk to do this,
to show up because somebody has to start. Like somebody
has to start. And that brings me to my very
favorite quote of all time, and so Margaret me quote
and she said, never doubt that a small group of
committed citizens can change the world. In fact, it's the
(28:55):
only thing that ever has. And that's one of the
reasons I was like, I need to talk to you
because literally what you're doing, like you're starting with these
conversations on Instagram and then a Ted talk and then
you're writing this book and it started with a lot
of what I'm hearing, a lot of women actually leaning
into the work you're doing. And then from that then
men are actually being invited in. And so you start
(29:15):
your one person who has started kind of like a
huge shift. And I don't know if it feels huge
to you, but it's huge, like it really is.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Appreciate it. It's a I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I always try to go back to the one person,
the one man, And every day I'm getting a few
of these one men who are writing saying something or
saying that it shifts something you know, and I get
to keep having these moments every day where it's like
it is working, it is helping, it is making a difference.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Our society focuses so much.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
On mass change, like mass impact, how many people. It's like,
we grow up right now, it's like, not enough to
affect one person, you have.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
To affect millions or what are you doing with your life?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
And that's not at all, especially as being raised in
the buy of faith, it's not at all Our view
all back to how to be a humble servant and
affect that one person.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
So even in this world where.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, I have millions of followers and all of these
types of things, it's about the one man because that
one man at any given point in time is interacting
with how many women on a daily basis, how many
other men?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
How many you know? Does he have children? This is
how we change the world. You have to do that,
you have to So it's very it's very tricky, it's confusing.
I still struggle with it.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
It's still hard for me to reach out to other
men because then when you get to a point when
you're known as that kind of person, you're like, shit.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
You know, all these men look up to me. Now,
even in my.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Group of friends, it's like a how do I tell
them that I'm struggling with this while I'm doing all
of these things, you know, because we're never immune to
It's why I wrote the book as a student, as
a teacher, So it's all in us. It's my socialization
is in me. So I could be writing a book
and giving ted talks and talking about these things and
yet still struggling to call my friend if I'm struggling
(30:58):
with something, and that's just being human, Like, we don't
just reach the other side. It's a constant daily practice.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
You're talking to a therapist who goes to therapy, So.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I get that therapist should.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I agree, But I get I that all that you're
saying is like, yeah, I struggle every day with stuff,
and I have to go get myself checked out. And
I have to make sure that I'm like staying in
line with what my beliefs are, and I have to
make sure that I am getting help and feedback because
as somebody who like you're in a helping profession now,
as somebody who's helping others, you've got to check yourself.
(31:29):
So I just want it to wrap all this up
once say thank you for all of what you're doing.
I will promise at one point I will finish the book,
but I really don't want to. Well, but the good
news is if I don't, you now have a podcast,
which is awesome. I listen to Matthew McConaughey's episode this
morning while I was getting ready, So that was really
(31:49):
really interesting and good. Yeah, but so many of those
episodes have been awesome. So if you guys that are
listening are hearing something, you're like, I need more of this,
Like you've already heard me talk about his book, But
go get the book and listen to the Man Enough podcast.
And where else can they find and hear you?
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Social media the love hate relationships I have with it,
But yeah, social media, But I think the Man of
Podcasts is a great It's a great place. Right now.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
You're gonna love this as a therapist. I just had
a deep conversation with my dad.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Oh well, just so you know, I already listened to it.
I listened to it last week. I think when it
came I don't know if it was when it came out.
I listened to it on road chip.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
It was yeah last week.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, And we're just we're trying to go there. My
wife's coming on, my wife. We just had my wife on,
She's coming on next week. We have some amazing, amazing folks.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
The conversation you had with your dad was honest, like
it was good, and what you have done is modeled
because I think a lot of people, especially when I'm
in therapy with them, I'm like, we're talking about how
to have some of those conversations that you had, and
it's so like people can't even imagine it. What do
you mean? I'm gonna be honest with my dad and
tell him how he hurt me, but also to say
thank you, Like what do you mean? And you're giving
(32:55):
like an example of what that can look like. And
I think that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Need samples right now, and we just unfortunately have so
few of them. I don't do it perfectly. I mean
there's times on this podcast where I'm learning and I
and it's uncomfortable and I make mistakes and Liz calls
me on it.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
You know, I have a female co host, and.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
That's part of this process is we have to be
willing to make mistakes, and men don't like making mistakes,
especially publicly.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Or admitting we don't know the answer.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
And a huge part of this and why I'm doing
it is just to show that, like we can stay
in the room. Like you can be told you're wrong,
and you could be hold you are sexist or CHAUVENI
stick and it doesn't mean that you're a bad person,
doesn't mean that you're all bad.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, that part, we can stay in the room. What
you just said, Like we can mess up and be
almost called out to an extent or approached or confronted
and we can still be good people. Like we can
stay in the room.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
It's just canceled.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
You know, it's not just over for you because you're Yeah,
if you make a mistake, it's oh shit, I made
a mistake.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
I didn't think of it that way. I'm sorry, Boom.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
It's amazing, Right, we can be human beings and be
messy and messed up and still have the opportunity to
be friends or require So.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
That's what we're working on.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
And you know, I'm grateful for folks like you that
are doing this work, that are trying to get the
message out. And if you're a man listening to this,
just know that, or if you're a woman, listening to this,
and you want your man to listen to this, and
now you're a man listening to this, just know that
you have an ocean of depth in you and you
(34:29):
are so much more than what the world has put
on you. And the feelings and thoughts and dreams and
sensitivities you have don't make you less of a man.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
They make you more of a man because they make
you a human. And at the end of the.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Day, our job as men, I believe, is to figure
out how to be the best human beings we possibly can.
And that starts with like using these ideas of what
it means to be manly, to be masculine, and going
in and going deep and getting comfortable and the uncomfortable,
and exploring who we are as individuals and showing up
and staying in the room. And I appreciate you listening.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Okay, that was beautiful, So if you are anybody listening
to that, rewind that and listen to it again. That
was amazing. So we're going to end on that because
that was a good way to kind of close it out.
So thank you for being here. And yeah, everybody listening,
you can follow us at at you need therapy podcast,
Get the book, listen to the podcast Man Enough, Man
Enough Podcast, and thank you for being thank you.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
We all need therapy.
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An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.