May 25, 2023 • 30 mins
This week's caller is dealing with an abuser in her family, who is tearing relationships apart. Nedra walks us through how we can stay safe in a domestic abuse situation.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, listeners, welcome back to you need to hear this.
I'm natur Towob and this week we have a very
detailed letter that involves domestic violence, not in the typical sense.
It is domestic violence in a family relationship. The definition
(00:23):
of domestic violence now includes emotional abuse, and many of
us can experience emotional abuse, not just in relationships with
our partners, but also in family relationships. What does that
look like? It looks like potentially having a family member
who is verbally aggressive, demeaning often gives you the silent treatment,
(00:50):
uses gas lighting, power and control in the relationship. It
expands beyond just being mean some times to consistently exhibiting
unhealthy behaviors in a relationship. I think that is really
important because with domestic violence, so many times we only
(01:13):
think about the physical abuse, But what comes before physical abuse.
It's often emotional abuse, it's often verbal abuse, and sometimes
it just stays there. But it's really important to acknowledge
that in our relationships as adults with people outside of
our romantic partnerships our marriages, we can be in abusive relationships.
(01:40):
The letter today talks about a sibling relationship filled with
historical trauma on both sides, and these siblings have dealt
with their issues in very different ways, and it seems
like they have very different lives. As you know, no
matter if you have the same things that happen, or
(02:02):
even similar things that happen, we all have different takeaways,
we have a different perspective, we respond to those things differently.
With siblings, there can be sibling rivalry. Even in adult relationships.
We're still competing for resources, We're still competing for the
(02:23):
attention of our parents, and we might be competing for
who had it worse, who has the bigger story. So
I want you to listen to this letter and piece
by piece because there are so many things that I
heard in this letter. Peace by piece, we will go
through and respond to this caller.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Hi Edra, So I am a fifty two year old woman.
I have a sister who's three years older than me,
who was verbally and emotionally abusive. This abuse has become
intolerable and I'm attempting to set new boundaries to protect
my well being. But unfortunately, my sister is using live
gaslighting and other forms of abuse towards myself mostly really
(03:18):
well myself, my mom and her children, my niece and
nephew to turn them against me. In fact, we've gotten
so bad recently that I am really concerned that this
is going to undermine my relationship with my mom and
my niece and nephew, which makes me very sad and angry,
(03:39):
and I'm also anxious. So a little bit of background,
My sister's been berating and abusing and bullying my mother
and thanky for the last twenty five plus years, also
now her own daughter for the last few years her
daughter's twenty one. Our dad was the only person who
was actually able to ever get through to my sister
and sort of moderate her behavior, but he died about
(04:00):
nine years ago, and since then, like she's just gotten
steadily meaner.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
When someone has an unhealthy relationship with most people, it
is indicative of who they are.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Sometimes we like to say, well, is this person mean?
Are they, you know, exhibiting unhealthy behaviors? Well, we can
often tell by how many people they're impacting, And it
sounds like with this sister, it's impacting the caller, their mom,
the niece, the nephew, and even the father. Wow, I
(04:36):
think that's a lot of relationships impacted by this one person.
When we are considering leaving a relationship, we often think
about those other relationships, that those auxiliary relationships that'll be impacted,
right like the relationship you may have with your niece
(04:56):
or nephew, the relationship you may have with your mo.
But it's most important to think about is this relationship safe?
Is it mentally and emotionally safe? Because you know, if
we stay, we can do ourselves more harm just by
continuing to be an abusive situations. I find this letter
(05:21):
really interesting because the sister has been abusive for twenty
five years. You know, her daughter is twenty one years old,
so her daughter's whole life twenty five years of abuse
in this family, let's keep listening.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I think the roots of her abusive behavior like live
in a couple of areas from childhood. I'd say the
primary one being my dad verbally abused her. He was
very mean to her, called her name idiots, stupid, that
throughout a good part of her life growing up. And
also he was verbally and emotionally abusive to my mother
(06:01):
as well until they got divorced, and not to me.
He never treated me that way. He also displayed strong
favoritism towards me, you know. But with my sister, despite
my dad's treatment of her, and despite the fact that
he left our family when I was twelve and she
was fifteen for another woman, I mean, despite all he's done,
(06:26):
she idolized him, literally.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Like on a pedasau, till the day he died.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
A long story short, my sister's life is flowly gone
downhill over the last fifteen years. She was married to
a man who had severe alcohol use disorder. He eventually
divorced her, and then since our dad passed away nine
years ago, she's just steadily got meaner, drinking more, become
(06:53):
more erratic, just emotionally unstable. And my awareness of her
behavior as abusive it really only came to late in
the past six to seven years, despite other people close
to me, like my husband and close friends noticing this
long before I did. But since I'm better able to
see her patterns now and the techniques she uses to
(07:15):
control me, I'm trying to assert new, healthier boundaries.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I hear a lot of compassion here, you know, sharing
of your sister's story and her experiences with your father,
And I wonder, does that make you feel any guilt
for what she experienced and you didn't. Does that make
you feel as if, gosh, she has such a terrible
story that a part of this, you know, I understand it.
(07:45):
I see how a person who experienced this could become
this way. I hear a lot of tragedy here, and
also I hear a lot of pain calls because of
that tragedy, psycho. So history is really important, knowing how
a person became a certain way, but we certainly can't
(08:07):
allow that to be a determining factor for how they
treat us. There are so many people with you know,
similar stories or you know, stories of trauma, and they
haven't started to abuse other people. So to say that
this behavior is acceptable, you know because of these things.
I didn't hear that, But I'm just saying for anyone
(08:29):
who's listening to feel as if, you know, because this
happened to them, they treat me this way. It's not acceptable.
I love how your husband and your friends started to
notice this and tell you about it. Often we don't
know what's normal until other people say to us, Wow,
(08:50):
she speaks to you in a way that is inappropriate.
I remember once I heard someone's mom calling them sluts
and the B word and all sorts of things, and
I was just floored. And the person wasn't responding in
a very shocked way because this was the norm to them,
this is how their mother talked to them. But it's
(09:13):
very unhealthy. So even when things are you know, routine
or something to expect in the family, those things can
be very unhealthy when you have multiple people saying, oh
my gosh, your sister. That is very alarming. Once a
therapist said to me about a family member, why are
(09:34):
you in a relationship with this person? And I would
like to ask you that question. What is holding you
in this relationship? I hear the other you know, family
members and how they'll be impacted, But I do wonder
what positive things does this relationship contribute to your life.
Let's keep listening.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
She has power, though and control over our family, and
this comes from what I think her two primary things.
One is we are Italian, so there are a lot
of generational beliefs and rules that blood is thicker than
water and that you are loyal to your family above
all else. So this really has blinded me, I know.
(10:21):
And also I think my mom to how much we've
enabled her behavior for decades. And also she has the
only grandkids in the family, so like she has her
kids are the only offspring of the next generation, and
basically she's weaponized them, meaning she will use our love
my mom's love life for her kids and fear that
(10:43):
she'll remove access to them as her primary tool to control. So,
needless to say, my mom and I have probably empowered
my sister by having little to no boundaries and not
enforcing any consequences about her behavior. So I mean, I
know personally I will I have avoided or ignored let
(11:04):
her get away with this abuse over and over to
you know, for the sake of being able to be
with our children and for our whole family to be
able to be together. I mean, I can include examples
of her abuse. I don't know that you need them,
but like you know, this is like a weekly or
monthly basis for decades, just name calling, hurtful statements, silent treatment,
(11:26):
very erratic behavior one day, therapy sweet, next day, she's
swearing at me, just trying to pick a fight with me.
She is just has been very mean, like mean to
my mother. Just mean, I can't even it's beyond me
how mean she's into my mother, And she has very
(11:47):
unpredictable instantaneous outbursts of anger, often in family settings, the
most recent and worst being Christmas Day this past year,
twenty twenty two, she exploded at our family after drinking
too much much and said that we She said, you
are the rudest, most selfish, unkind people I know, and
I hate you and I'm being nice like she was
(12:08):
venomous when she said this. She never admits to false
she never apologizes. She flips the script, so it's never her,
you know, it's always someone else's fault if she's rude
or mean. So it was a Christmas Day incident. I
(12:30):
was not speaking with her, and I made it no.
I wasn't going to have to talk to her until
she apologized for her behavior. And when she realized she
had to apologize to me, she made it about herself,
so demanding that I do it at a time and
a place of her choosing. And when I refused, I
got the silent treatment. When she finally did apologize, she
actually apologized for making a choice to answer her cell
(12:52):
phone when a friend called, not for exploding at her family,
calling us names and saying she hated us.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
How hard is it to watch her hurt your mother
and how much of that impacts your relationship with your sister.
I wonder how you are separating what's happening with your
mom and what's happening with you. I do hear the
incident around Christmas, but I do wonder, like, what sort
(13:21):
of speel over does this have because you're watching her
be abusive to your mom and it sounds like you
have a really good relationship with your mom, and hearing
her hurt and watching her be hurt, I'm sure is
really tough, and I would wonder what part of that
is impacting the relationship you have with your sibling. Sometimes
(13:43):
parents have a different love for their children than we
are able to have with our siblings. Your mother may
be able to forgive and move forward because that's her child,
you know, that is her desire to always have that relationationship.
Do you have the same criteria for your relationship with
(14:05):
your sister? Do you have the criteria of not having
any boundaries in a relationship because it's your sister. That's
a thing that you'll have to decide, you know. I
hear some some ambivalence there, because it you know, it's
really tough when it's unpacking these other relationship and the
(14:26):
children are being used as ponds. But you know, you
mentioned earlier that your niece is twenty one, So I
wonder if you can have a separate sort of relationship
with her. I wonder if the relationship could be healthier
if you started to pursue more interactions with her, separate
(14:48):
from anyone else in the family, right outside of family gatherings,
just you and your niece, really building that one on
one relationship.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Now.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I don't know if she's been you know, maybe sort
of taught to not have a one on one relationship,
but I wonder if you could start to build that
with your niece. Also, you know, I feel like with
your sister, there's a bit of feeding the beasts here.
That's really what enabling is. When we don't stand up,
(15:19):
and we don't stick up, and we continue to allow
a person to do a certain thing, like you know,
having these erratic behaviors, offering the silent treatment, being mean,
name calling, all of these things, we're just contributing more
and more to their behavior. They not that you know
your sister will change, but she doesn't even have to
(15:40):
try because there's so much excuse making there's so much
tolerance around these really harmful and unhelpful behaviors. I often
wonder in these situations, what if everyone stopped tolerating it.
Could that change the person's behavior, if her children, if
your mom, if we collectively stood up and said, oh now.
(16:04):
I know that that's perfect world thinking, but it's a
strategy as well, and one that we don't consider often enough.
We try to hander to the person who's causing the
problem as if that is a solution, as if they
will start to become better in some sort of way,
or that we'll get better at tolerating nonsense.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
So just a couple of things that are important. I
think that the issues are amplified by the fact that
my mom and I have a great relationship. We always have.
My sister and my mom do not, so I feel
responsible to ensure that my mom gets to see her
only grandchildren. I've sacrificed my own well being by continually
forgiving my sister, despite her behavior never changing, just so
(16:56):
our whole family can be together. And then the other
thing is, I'm fairly certain my sister as a drinking
problem and borderline personality disorder. I will add I have
a PhD in psychology and also a mental health clinician,
so I do not use those terms lightly. I do
know what I'm talking about when I say that my
sister has been in therapies for most of the last decade,
but nothing has changed or gotten better with regards to
(17:20):
how she treats our family. So currently I'm holding home
to my boundaries limited contact with her. I really don't
want a relationship with her right now. I feel comfortable
with the boundaries I'm setting, but I also feel like
I'm on an island and very isolated now from my
family because my mom, who is eighty, refuses to do
anything but make excuses for my sister's behavior. She accepts
(17:42):
her abuse, she admits it. She says she feels responsible
for my dad's treatment of her, and that she never
stopped my dad.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I want to go back a bit earlier. You spoke
about your dad having a good relationship with you, never
abusing you, and now I hear you saying that your
mom also has a really good relationship with you. I
wonder if there is some expectation from family that because
(18:12):
you're able to have these healthy relationships, that you should
also be tolerant of your sister and some of the
things that she's doing. It sounds like you have a
wonderful understanding of her potential alcoholism, of you know, her
personality disorder, and you know, family may say, you know,
(18:33):
because of these things, and because of how you're able
to get along with people, why can't you just brush
this aside? It might be helpful to talk about how
you're impacted by this outside of you know, my sister
is doing this, my sister is doing that, But in
this relationship, I feel in this relationship, I am not
(18:59):
getting I am struggling in the following ways. They may
not hear that part. I think there's a lot of
focus on her behaviors, and there should be some focus
on how her behaviors are impacting you. What has the
language been around how you are uniquely impacted. What do
you say to your mom when she's talking about your
(19:21):
sister and she's making these excuses. Do you say, well,
I understand that that's the way you want to handle it,
and I hear that there is a partial truth in
that you understand that her behavior is intolerable and you
want me to accept it, And that's something I'm not
(19:41):
willing to do in the relationship with your mom, How
can you be connected to her despite the disconnection with
your sister. You know your sister may not be able
to be in the relationship, but how do you continue
to call your mom, continue to have visits with your
mother and also those other families members. It's just this
one person is missing, and with your mom, you get
(20:05):
to choose how much you want to hear about your sister.
It might not be hopeful for you to hear, you know,
about all the things she's continuing to do in the family,
all of the harm she's continuing to cause. You have
left the relationship, you're disconnected. Do you want to hear
your mom talking about how terrible she was last week
(20:27):
or what she said when you may want to develop
even protective boundaries around the communication your mother has with
you regarding your sister, and say, you know, I know
she's doing these things to you, but it's really hard
for me to listen as I'm trying to process my
trauma with her. You know, referring your mom to a
therapist might be hopeful. Also, you know, letting your mom
(20:50):
know that you're working through your own stuff and venting
to you might not be the most helpful thing as
you're trying to process your relationship with your sister as well. Well,
let's go back to the call.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I also feel a bit of a divide with my niece,
who have a very very close relationship for her whole life.
She has been verbally abused by her mother and crict
me about it many times again.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
I sent that she is, you know, just doing what
she knows how to do, which is avoid and let
her mom continue to treat her that way.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And I'm very concerned about what my sister is saying
to her children. She turns the tables, She's made this
whole thing about Christmas Day my fault. I'm concerned that,
you know, my relationship with them will be negatively impacted.
She will use that control that she has over them.
Because I'm not like snapping back to grid and just
going along with everything to get along. I don't want
(21:51):
to make the problem between my sister and me a
problem for my niece and nephew. They have a dad
with severe alcohol use disorder or mom. Obviously he's emotionally unstable.
They've had a very tough childhood. They both have their
own mental health issues. My husband and I have always
been a safe space for them, and it just breaks
my heart when I think about how this might affect
them and my relationship with them. But I really fear
(22:14):
that my sister will do what she can to sabotage
our relationship. So obviously it's a major problem in my life.
I pray that I can get some of your help
on it. I am in therby, but I always like
hear different perspectives, and thank you for all you do.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
You cannot control the narrative, what she's sang to other
family members, what she's sign to your mom, the things
she's making up. Although it may be really harmful, whether
you're in a relationship with her or not, she can
say whatever she wants to say. Hopefully those people can
look through that and remember who you are as a
(22:50):
person and start to understand that they are also being tricked,
that they are also being manipulated to form an opinion
about a person. Now, that may take some time. I
hear a bit of cycle breaking in here. I hear
that you are the first person in your family to
really stand up against your sister, and because of the
(23:12):
past abuse, you are really shedding light on not just
your abuse with your sister, but also your father's abuse
with your mother with your sister, and that's bringing up
I'm sure a lot of stuff. There is support for you,
but it might not be in these family relationships, the
people who are still in this dysfunction with your sister.
(23:36):
It might be a support group. It might be with
your therapists, it might be group therapy, it might be
a group of friends, it could be an online support group,
but it might not be in the family system where
they are still enabling the behavior. They're still in this situation,
in this holding pattern of trying to accept and tolerate
(23:59):
your behavior. So going to them and saying, hey, look
what she's doing, they may not be ready to hear that.
Some families remain in deep, deep denial until they're ready
to deal with the issue. They may not be ready
right now, and that is really hard. I want you
(24:20):
to know you cannot control her narrative. If she's sang
something about you, it may hurt to hear about it
from others, It may hurt to see how others are
now responding to you, But you cannot make her say
anything different, whether you're in her life or not. This
(24:40):
letter was full of family drama, not just with you,
but with multiple family members. And sometimes when you are
the person who is standing up, the only person standing
up to say this is a problem and I won't
tolerate it anymore, it is very awkward. It is very
(25:02):
hard to exist in relationships where everybody's trying to pander
to the most dysfunctional person in the family. I too
have those sort of family relationships where people are very
clear this person is unhealthy. They're doing these things, but
they're not doing anything to change that, and that's because
(25:23):
they're not ready. What I show up with is grace.
Just because I'm ready, it doesn't mean that everybody has
to be ready with me. What kind of relationship can
we have despite me not wanting to have a relationship
with this other person? I cannot be in an unhealthy relationship.
(25:46):
I choose not to. That's what I hear you saying.
I choose not to tolerate this anymore. In light of that,
how can I be in relationship with you? What new
things can we talk about? How can we now spend
the holidays together? And you know, I wonder, you know,
with your sister causing so much drama and conflict, is
(26:09):
it even possible to have a holiday experience with her
where you could just pop in and say hey and
do all of these things. There will be a lot
of changes and you'll have to think about, oh, what
could this change look like with a person who is
not ready to work on anything. You know, true acceptance
(26:31):
is not sometimes we think acceptance is, oh my gosh,
I have to tolerate all of this stuff. I see
the person as they are. Well, I see the person
as they are, and I no longer want to deal
with it. Is what I hear from you, and that
is your prerogative, and I think sometimes that is the
healthiest one. You know, many people show up to therapy
(26:54):
anxious and depressed, and you know, really frustrate it because
they've been dealing with things and for twenty five years.
In a sibling relationship, you have the right to say
I'm not tolerating anymore. You know, some things go beyond
like oh, this person annoys me, or this person causes
(27:15):
me some frustration every once in a while, and it
really leads into abuse. When there's abuse in a relationship,
we have to think about our emotional safety, our psychological safety,
and sometimes our physical safety. I heard a bit in
this letter about your sister not being accountable and not
(27:38):
issuing any apologies. You know, I find it interesting because
I hear you wanting one. But do we need apologies
from people who aren't sorry and who will exhibit the
same behavior next week. You know, it's it's not authentic,
it's not meaningful. It is absolute lip service. They're just
(27:58):
saying it to be able to continue in the relationship
with you. Healthy apologies include a person being able and
ready to change their behaviors. And it doesn't sound like
your sister is there. She's still drinking, she's still having
all of these issues. So is an apology even going
(28:18):
to improve a situation where a person is continuing to
be an unhealthy version of themselves. This letter today, I'm
sure it touched on so many things, and someone listening
maybe all of these things don't apply to you, but certainly,
you know something may apply to you. Whether it's a
(28:40):
relationship with a parent, with a sibling, with you know,
a grandparent, an aunt, a cousin. There are relationships that
are abusive in adulthood. We often think about abuse and
childhood relationships, but oh boy, it can continue beyond that,
and we have to think about our mental health, our
(29:01):
emotional health, and if it's something we want to continue
to tolerate. You need to hear this. You are not
being a martyr by saving your family and staying in
unhealthy relationships. The relationships are already damaged in many cases,
(29:25):
and you stay to save the relationships with other people
or to keep the peace is causing you mental health
issues frustration. I'm sure hours of therapy, you are not
a martyr. You need to hear this is an iHeart
(29:48):
production hosted by me Nadra Glover to wob Our executive
producer is Joe el Bodique. Our senior producer and editor
is Mia don Taylor. Send us a voice memo with
your questions about boundaries and relationships that you need to
hear this at iHeartMedia dot com. Please be sure to
(30:09):
rate our show wherever you listen to it and share
this episode with someone who needs to hear this. Talk
to you next time
Hi, listeners, welcome back to you need to hear this.
I'm natur Towob and this week we have a very
detailed letter that involves domestic violence, not in the typical sense.
It is domestic violence in a family relationship. The definition
(00:23):
of domestic violence now includes emotional abuse, and many of
us can experience emotional abuse, not just in relationships with
our partners, but also in family relationships. What does that
look like? It looks like potentially having a family member
who is verbally aggressive, demeaning often gives you the silent treatment,
(00:50):
uses gas lighting, power and control in the relationship. It
expands beyond just being mean some times to consistently exhibiting
unhealthy behaviors in a relationship. I think that is really
important because with domestic violence, so many times we only
(01:13):
think about the physical abuse, But what comes before physical abuse.
It's often emotional abuse, it's often verbal abuse, and sometimes
it just stays there. But it's really important to acknowledge
that in our relationships as adults with people outside of
our romantic partnerships our marriages, we can be in abusive relationships.
(01:40):
The letter today talks about a sibling relationship filled with
historical trauma on both sides, and these siblings have dealt
with their issues in very different ways, and it seems
like they have very different lives. As you know, no
matter if you have the same things that happen, or
(02:02):
even similar things that happen, we all have different takeaways,
we have a different perspective, we respond to those things differently.
With siblings, there can be sibling rivalry. Even in adult relationships.
We're still competing for resources, We're still competing for the
(02:23):
attention of our parents, and we might be competing for
who had it worse, who has the bigger story. So
I want you to listen to this letter and piece
by piece because there are so many things that I
heard in this letter. Peace by piece, we will go
through and respond to this caller.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Hi Edra, So I am a fifty two year old woman.
I have a sister who's three years older than me,
who was verbally and emotionally abusive. This abuse has become
intolerable and I'm attempting to set new boundaries to protect
my well being. But unfortunately, my sister is using live
gaslighting and other forms of abuse towards myself mostly really
(03:18):
well myself, my mom and her children, my niece and
nephew to turn them against me. In fact, we've gotten
so bad recently that I am really concerned that this
is going to undermine my relationship with my mom and
my niece and nephew, which makes me very sad and angry,
(03:39):
and I'm also anxious. So a little bit of background,
My sister's been berating and abusing and bullying my mother
and thanky for the last twenty five plus years, also
now her own daughter for the last few years her
daughter's twenty one. Our dad was the only person who
was actually able to ever get through to my sister
and sort of moderate her behavior, but he died about
(04:00):
nine years ago, and since then, like she's just gotten
steadily meaner.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
When someone has an unhealthy relationship with most people, it
is indicative of who they are.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Sometimes we like to say, well, is this person mean?
Are they, you know, exhibiting unhealthy behaviors? Well, we can
often tell by how many people they're impacting, And it
sounds like with this sister, it's impacting the caller, their mom,
the niece, the nephew, and even the father. Wow, I
(04:36):
think that's a lot of relationships impacted by this one person.
When we are considering leaving a relationship, we often think
about those other relationships, that those auxiliary relationships that'll be impacted,
right like the relationship you may have with your niece
(04:56):
or nephew, the relationship you may have with your mo.
But it's most important to think about is this relationship safe?
Is it mentally and emotionally safe? Because you know, if
we stay, we can do ourselves more harm just by
continuing to be an abusive situations. I find this letter
(05:21):
really interesting because the sister has been abusive for twenty
five years. You know, her daughter is twenty one years old,
so her daughter's whole life twenty five years of abuse
in this family, let's keep listening.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I think the roots of her abusive behavior like live
in a couple of areas from childhood. I'd say the
primary one being my dad verbally abused her. He was
very mean to her, called her name idiots, stupid, that
throughout a good part of her life growing up. And
also he was verbally and emotionally abusive to my mother
(06:01):
as well until they got divorced, and not to me.
He never treated me that way. He also displayed strong
favoritism towards me, you know. But with my sister, despite
my dad's treatment of her, and despite the fact that
he left our family when I was twelve and she
was fifteen for another woman, I mean, despite all he's done,
(06:26):
she idolized him, literally.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Like on a pedasau, till the day he died.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
A long story short, my sister's life is flowly gone
downhill over the last fifteen years. She was married to
a man who had severe alcohol use disorder. He eventually
divorced her, and then since our dad passed away nine
years ago, she's just steadily got meaner, drinking more, become
(06:53):
more erratic, just emotionally unstable. And my awareness of her
behavior as abusive it really only came to late in
the past six to seven years, despite other people close
to me, like my husband and close friends noticing this
long before I did. But since I'm better able to
see her patterns now and the techniques she uses to
(07:15):
control me, I'm trying to assert new, healthier boundaries.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I hear a lot of compassion here, you know, sharing
of your sister's story and her experiences with your father,
And I wonder, does that make you feel any guilt
for what she experienced and you didn't. Does that make
you feel as if, gosh, she has such a terrible
story that a part of this, you know, I understand it.
(07:45):
I see how a person who experienced this could become
this way. I hear a lot of tragedy here, and
also I hear a lot of pain calls because of
that tragedy, psycho. So history is really important, knowing how
a person became a certain way, but we certainly can't
(08:07):
allow that to be a determining factor for how they
treat us. There are so many people with you know,
similar stories or you know, stories of trauma, and they
haven't started to abuse other people. So to say that
this behavior is acceptable, you know because of these things.
I didn't hear that, But I'm just saying for anyone
(08:29):
who's listening to feel as if, you know, because this
happened to them, they treat me this way. It's not acceptable.
I love how your husband and your friends started to
notice this and tell you about it. Often we don't
know what's normal until other people say to us, Wow,
(08:50):
she speaks to you in a way that is inappropriate.
I remember once I heard someone's mom calling them sluts
and the B word and all sorts of things, and
I was just floored. And the person wasn't responding in
a very shocked way because this was the norm to them,
this is how their mother talked to them. But it's
(09:13):
very unhealthy. So even when things are you know, routine
or something to expect in the family, those things can
be very unhealthy when you have multiple people saying, oh
my gosh, your sister. That is very alarming. Once a
therapist said to me about a family member, why are
(09:34):
you in a relationship with this person? And I would
like to ask you that question. What is holding you
in this relationship? I hear the other you know, family
members and how they'll be impacted, But I do wonder
what positive things does this relationship contribute to your life.
Let's keep listening.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
She has power, though and control over our family, and
this comes from what I think her two primary things.
One is we are Italian, so there are a lot
of generational beliefs and rules that blood is thicker than
water and that you are loyal to your family above
all else. So this really has blinded me, I know.
(10:21):
And also I think my mom to how much we've
enabled her behavior for decades. And also she has the
only grandkids in the family, so like she has her
kids are the only offspring of the next generation, and
basically she's weaponized them, meaning she will use our love
my mom's love life for her kids and fear that
(10:43):
she'll remove access to them as her primary tool to control. So,
needless to say, my mom and I have probably empowered
my sister by having little to no boundaries and not
enforcing any consequences about her behavior. So I mean, I
know personally I will I have avoided or ignored let
(11:04):
her get away with this abuse over and over to
you know, for the sake of being able to be
with our children and for our whole family to be
able to be together. I mean, I can include examples
of her abuse. I don't know that you need them,
but like you know, this is like a weekly or
monthly basis for decades, just name calling, hurtful statements, silent treatment,
(11:26):
very erratic behavior one day, therapy sweet, next day, she's
swearing at me, just trying to pick a fight with me.
She is just has been very mean, like mean to
my mother. Just mean, I can't even it's beyond me
how mean she's into my mother, And she has very
(11:47):
unpredictable instantaneous outbursts of anger, often in family settings, the
most recent and worst being Christmas Day this past year,
twenty twenty two, she exploded at our family after drinking
too much much and said that we She said, you
are the rudest, most selfish, unkind people I know, and
I hate you and I'm being nice like she was
(12:08):
venomous when she said this. She never admits to false
she never apologizes. She flips the script, so it's never her,
you know, it's always someone else's fault if she's rude
or mean. So it was a Christmas Day incident. I
(12:30):
was not speaking with her, and I made it no.
I wasn't going to have to talk to her until
she apologized for her behavior. And when she realized she
had to apologize to me, she made it about herself,
so demanding that I do it at a time and
a place of her choosing. And when I refused, I
got the silent treatment. When she finally did apologize, she
actually apologized for making a choice to answer her cell
(12:52):
phone when a friend called, not for exploding at her family,
calling us names and saying she hated us.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
How hard is it to watch her hurt your mother
and how much of that impacts your relationship with your sister.
I wonder how you are separating what's happening with your
mom and what's happening with you. I do hear the
incident around Christmas, but I do wonder, like, what sort
(13:21):
of speel over does this have because you're watching her
be abusive to your mom and it sounds like you
have a really good relationship with your mom, and hearing
her hurt and watching her be hurt, I'm sure is
really tough, and I would wonder what part of that
is impacting the relationship you have with your sibling. Sometimes
(13:43):
parents have a different love for their children than we
are able to have with our siblings. Your mother may
be able to forgive and move forward because that's her child,
you know, that is her desire to always have that relationationship.
Do you have the same criteria for your relationship with
(14:05):
your sister? Do you have the criteria of not having
any boundaries in a relationship because it's your sister. That's
a thing that you'll have to decide, you know. I
hear some some ambivalence there, because it you know, it's
really tough when it's unpacking these other relationship and the
(14:26):
children are being used as ponds. But you know, you
mentioned earlier that your niece is twenty one, So I
wonder if you can have a separate sort of relationship
with her. I wonder if the relationship could be healthier
if you started to pursue more interactions with her, separate
(14:48):
from anyone else in the family, right outside of family gatherings,
just you and your niece, really building that one on
one relationship.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Now.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I don't know if she's been you know, maybe sort
of taught to not have a one on one relationship,
but I wonder if you could start to build that
with your niece. Also, you know, I feel like with
your sister, there's a bit of feeding the beasts here.
That's really what enabling is. When we don't stand up,
(15:19):
and we don't stick up, and we continue to allow
a person to do a certain thing, like you know,
having these erratic behaviors, offering the silent treatment, being mean,
name calling, all of these things, we're just contributing more
and more to their behavior. They not that you know
your sister will change, but she doesn't even have to
(15:40):
try because there's so much excuse making there's so much
tolerance around these really harmful and unhelpful behaviors. I often
wonder in these situations, what if everyone stopped tolerating it.
Could that change the person's behavior, if her children, if
your mom, if we collectively stood up and said, oh now.
(16:04):
I know that that's perfect world thinking, but it's a
strategy as well, and one that we don't consider often enough.
We try to hander to the person who's causing the
problem as if that is a solution, as if they
will start to become better in some sort of way,
or that we'll get better at tolerating nonsense.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
So just a couple of things that are important. I
think that the issues are amplified by the fact that
my mom and I have a great relationship. We always have.
My sister and my mom do not, so I feel
responsible to ensure that my mom gets to see her
only grandchildren. I've sacrificed my own well being by continually
forgiving my sister, despite her behavior never changing, just so
(16:56):
our whole family can be together. And then the other
thing is, I'm fairly certain my sister as a drinking
problem and borderline personality disorder. I will add I have
a PhD in psychology and also a mental health clinician,
so I do not use those terms lightly. I do
know what I'm talking about when I say that my
sister has been in therapies for most of the last decade,
but nothing has changed or gotten better with regards to
(17:20):
how she treats our family. So currently I'm holding home
to my boundaries limited contact with her. I really don't
want a relationship with her right now. I feel comfortable
with the boundaries I'm setting, but I also feel like
I'm on an island and very isolated now from my
family because my mom, who is eighty, refuses to do
anything but make excuses for my sister's behavior. She accepts
(17:42):
her abuse, she admits it. She says she feels responsible
for my dad's treatment of her, and that she never
stopped my dad.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I want to go back a bit earlier. You spoke
about your dad having a good relationship with you, never
abusing you, and now I hear you saying that your
mom also has a really good relationship with you. I
wonder if there is some expectation from family that because
(18:12):
you're able to have these healthy relationships, that you should
also be tolerant of your sister and some of the
things that she's doing. It sounds like you have a
wonderful understanding of her potential alcoholism, of you know, her
personality disorder, and you know, family may say, you know,
(18:33):
because of these things, and because of how you're able
to get along with people, why can't you just brush
this aside? It might be helpful to talk about how
you're impacted by this outside of you know, my sister
is doing this, my sister is doing that, But in
this relationship, I feel in this relationship, I am not
(18:59):
getting I am struggling in the following ways. They may
not hear that part. I think there's a lot of
focus on her behaviors, and there should be some focus
on how her behaviors are impacting you. What has the
language been around how you are uniquely impacted. What do
you say to your mom when she's talking about your
(19:21):
sister and she's making these excuses. Do you say, well,
I understand that that's the way you want to handle it,
and I hear that there is a partial truth in
that you understand that her behavior is intolerable and you
want me to accept it, And that's something I'm not
(19:41):
willing to do in the relationship with your mom, How
can you be connected to her despite the disconnection with
your sister. You know your sister may not be able
to be in the relationship, but how do you continue
to call your mom, continue to have visits with your
mother and also those other families members. It's just this
one person is missing, and with your mom, you get
(20:05):
to choose how much you want to hear about your sister.
It might not be hopeful for you to hear, you know,
about all the things she's continuing to do in the family,
all of the harm she's continuing to cause. You have
left the relationship, you're disconnected. Do you want to hear
your mom talking about how terrible she was last week
(20:27):
or what she said when you may want to develop
even protective boundaries around the communication your mother has with
you regarding your sister, and say, you know, I know
she's doing these things to you, but it's really hard
for me to listen as I'm trying to process my
trauma with her. You know, referring your mom to a
therapist might be hopeful. Also, you know, letting your mom
(20:50):
know that you're working through your own stuff and venting
to you might not be the most helpful thing as
you're trying to process your relationship with your sister as well. Well,
let's go back to the call.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I also feel a bit of a divide with my niece,
who have a very very close relationship for her whole life.
She has been verbally abused by her mother and crict
me about it many times again.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
I sent that she is, you know, just doing what
she knows how to do, which is avoid and let
her mom continue to treat her that way.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And I'm very concerned about what my sister is saying
to her children. She turns the tables, She's made this
whole thing about Christmas Day my fault. I'm concerned that,
you know, my relationship with them will be negatively impacted.
She will use that control that she has over them.
Because I'm not like snapping back to grid and just
going along with everything to get along. I don't want
(21:51):
to make the problem between my sister and me a
problem for my niece and nephew. They have a dad
with severe alcohol use disorder or mom. Obviously he's emotionally unstable.
They've had a very tough childhood. They both have their
own mental health issues. My husband and I have always
been a safe space for them, and it just breaks
my heart when I think about how this might affect
them and my relationship with them. But I really fear
(22:14):
that my sister will do what she can to sabotage
our relationship. So obviously it's a major problem in my life.
I pray that I can get some of your help
on it. I am in therby, but I always like
hear different perspectives, and thank you for all you do.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
You cannot control the narrative, what she's sang to other
family members, what she's sign to your mom, the things
she's making up. Although it may be really harmful, whether
you're in a relationship with her or not, she can
say whatever she wants to say. Hopefully those people can
look through that and remember who you are as a
(22:50):
person and start to understand that they are also being tricked,
that they are also being manipulated to form an opinion
about a person. Now, that may take some time. I
hear a bit of cycle breaking in here. I hear
that you are the first person in your family to
really stand up against your sister, and because of the
(23:12):
past abuse, you are really shedding light on not just
your abuse with your sister, but also your father's abuse
with your mother with your sister, and that's bringing up
I'm sure a lot of stuff. There is support for you,
but it might not be in these family relationships, the
people who are still in this dysfunction with your sister.
(23:36):
It might be a support group. It might be with
your therapists, it might be group therapy, it might be
a group of friends, it could be an online support group,
but it might not be in the family system where
they are still enabling the behavior. They're still in this situation,
in this holding pattern of trying to accept and tolerate
(23:59):
your behavior. So going to them and saying, hey, look
what she's doing, they may not be ready to hear that.
Some families remain in deep, deep denial until they're ready
to deal with the issue. They may not be ready
right now, and that is really hard. I want you
(24:20):
to know you cannot control her narrative. If she's sang
something about you, it may hurt to hear about it
from others, It may hurt to see how others are
now responding to you, But you cannot make her say
anything different, whether you're in her life or not. This
(24:40):
letter was full of family drama, not just with you,
but with multiple family members. And sometimes when you are
the person who is standing up, the only person standing
up to say this is a problem and I won't
tolerate it anymore, it is very awkward. It is very
(25:02):
hard to exist in relationships where everybody's trying to pander
to the most dysfunctional person in the family. I too
have those sort of family relationships where people are very
clear this person is unhealthy. They're doing these things, but
they're not doing anything to change that, and that's because
(25:23):
they're not ready. What I show up with is grace.
Just because I'm ready, it doesn't mean that everybody has
to be ready with me. What kind of relationship can
we have despite me not wanting to have a relationship
with this other person? I cannot be in an unhealthy relationship.
(25:46):
I choose not to. That's what I hear you saying.
I choose not to tolerate this anymore. In light of that,
how can I be in relationship with you? What new
things can we talk about? How can we now spend
the holidays together? And you know, I wonder, you know,
with your sister causing so much drama and conflict, is
(26:09):
it even possible to have a holiday experience with her
where you could just pop in and say hey and
do all of these things. There will be a lot
of changes and you'll have to think about, oh, what
could this change look like with a person who is
not ready to work on anything. You know, true acceptance
(26:31):
is not sometimes we think acceptance is, oh my gosh,
I have to tolerate all of this stuff. I see
the person as they are. Well, I see the person
as they are, and I no longer want to deal
with it. Is what I hear from you, and that
is your prerogative, and I think sometimes that is the
healthiest one. You know, many people show up to therapy
(26:54):
anxious and depressed, and you know, really frustrate it because
they've been dealing with things and for twenty five years.
In a sibling relationship, you have the right to say
I'm not tolerating anymore. You know, some things go beyond
like oh, this person annoys me, or this person causes
(27:15):
me some frustration every once in a while, and it
really leads into abuse. When there's abuse in a relationship,
we have to think about our emotional safety, our psychological safety,
and sometimes our physical safety. I heard a bit in
this letter about your sister not being accountable and not
(27:38):
issuing any apologies. You know, I find it interesting because
I hear you wanting one. But do we need apologies
from people who aren't sorry and who will exhibit the
same behavior next week. You know, it's it's not authentic,
it's not meaningful. It is absolute lip service. They're just
(27:58):
saying it to be able to continue in the relationship
with you. Healthy apologies include a person being able and
ready to change their behaviors. And it doesn't sound like
your sister is there. She's still drinking, she's still having
all of these issues. So is an apology even going
(28:18):
to improve a situation where a person is continuing to
be an unhealthy version of themselves. This letter today, I'm
sure it touched on so many things, and someone listening
maybe all of these things don't apply to you, but certainly,
you know something may apply to you. Whether it's a
(28:40):
relationship with a parent, with a sibling, with you know,
a grandparent, an aunt, a cousin. There are relationships that
are abusive in adulthood. We often think about abuse and
childhood relationships, but oh boy, it can continue beyond that,
and we have to think about our mental health, our
(29:01):
emotional health, and if it's something we want to continue
to tolerate. You need to hear this. You are not
being a martyr by saving your family and staying in
unhealthy relationships. The relationships are already damaged in many cases,
(29:25):
and you stay to save the relationships with other people
or to keep the peace is causing you mental health
issues frustration. I'm sure hours of therapy, you are not
a martyr. You need to hear this is an iHeart
(29:48):
production hosted by me Nadra Glover to wob Our executive
producer is Joe el Bodique. Our senior producer and editor
is Mia don Taylor. Send us a voice memo with
your questions about boundaries and relationships that you need to
hear this at iHeartMedia dot com. Please be sure to
(30:09):
rate our show wherever you listen to it and share
this episode with someone who needs to hear this. Talk
to you next time
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