July 22, 2025 • 60 mins
In this episode of You vs You, Grammy Award-winning artist and cultural disruptor Lecrae shares his raw journey through faith, trauma, identity, and self-acceptance. From growing up with unspoken family rules to redefining masculinity, Lecrae opens up about therapy, parenting, navigating fame, and what it really means to hear, “You’re accepted.” This conversation is full of soul, healing, and powerful truths that will shift your perspective—on yourself and your place in the world.
Takeaways:
> “You have the right to say no to the rules that no longer serve you.”
> “Your mind doesn’t care what’s real—it believes what you tell it.”
> “You're accepted.”
💬 Join the conversation:
What’s one “unwritten rule” you inherited that you’re ready to break? Drop it in the comments—we’d love to hear your story.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Two reasons why people never feel like they made it.
Reason number one is because.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's a great Men do cry?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Is this rich people talk, people who say, just follow
your passions. They already got money versus me, single mom, dad.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
On success is to be doing what you're supposed to
do and what you were made to do. Things you're right.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Religion is who taught me this? Men don't cry? Where? What?
Where did you get that? Where did that come from?
What are you afraid of? Greatest fear?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome to another episode of You Versus You. On this
week's episode, I have artist, author, and fellow podcaster Lacraine
over In the span of his career, he's transformed and
changed the rules of Christian hip hop, becoming one of
the hottest artists of our generation. He's overcome child trauma
and every university you could think of on his way
to winning four Grammys, becoming a father, I mean, an
inspiration too many great Welcome to the universes you.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
It's a pleasure. And I got to tell you the
process of life for us to be here together, because
I feel like I've grown as you grow, Right Like
if I look back at fifteen year old Legs who
was trying to change Christian music and create a crossover entertainment.
And at the same time that this young cat La
(01:20):
Craze was getting, you know, into the game. And I
remember those moments and I see the transition. I think
throughout that until now, I think we've sat maybe three
times in different circumstances, but never have had the opportunity
to sit down and have a good one on one
and get to know each other. I'll start with the
simplest question. Okay, how does lucreze the human field today?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
How does the human feel today? It's a good question.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I feel I feel good, but good from the standpoint
of like usually lead their stress or there's chaos, or
there's a fire to put out. Today there's no fire
I'm trying to put out, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
So it's like, oh, I'm just I'm good.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, how do you deal with stress in the fires
and the things that life throws at you?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Because on what day you ask me? Because on what
season of life I'm in?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
You know what I mean, I'm I'm I'm wired anxious.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
So I think from childhood trauma to adult trauma, I'm
like a glass of water with a paper towel on
top that drops of water have just been dripping on.
And you know when that paper towel breaks, it's either chaos,
(02:55):
or it's depression, or it's an anxiety attack, or it's some.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
And for generally for people.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
For me, I've experienced all those things nowadays.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Stressed.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
For me, the way I navigated practically is I just
tried to ask myself, what about this is stressing me out?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
And what can I do about it?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's typically what I try to do now because I
don't want to go to a place of like anxiety
or chaos.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, in that process, have you been able to identify
the true cause of why you even stress?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Sometimes I can't remember what it was, but it was
something specifically that I was stressed out about. And I
feel like it was a conversation I was having with
somebody and I was like, why is this conversation stressing
me out so much? And I couldn't figure out like
it was a regular person, like it wasn't. I was like,
what is stressing me about the conversation? And I thought
(03:58):
about it and I was like, oh, because.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I'm wrestling with.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Control right now, and I and they're interrupting my ability
to have control.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
I want control.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So I was like I had to say, oh, you
don't have control, and that's okay. And then I was like, okay,
it's fine, you don't have control and it's okay. And
then I was okay. But I wanted to control every scenario.
I wanted to make it all just go to where
I wanted to go and it and once I let
that go, then it was kind of like, okay, you're
(04:35):
all right.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
You know, it's crazy about that. We've been trained to
think that the only way to survive is by control,
even when you think about Wall Street, grab the bull
by the horse, right, like, we've been taught we must
take control, we must be the driver, right. And it
took me doing that for twenty three years of my
(04:57):
career to end up in a place where I finally
understood I don't actually control anything, even when I think
I do. And then it gave me a beautiful revelation,
which is we actually don't earn anything. Hm hmm, it's
all a gift.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Hmmm. That's perspective. I agree with that.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
And what we do with our discipline, our hard work,
our dedication, our focus is we're good shepherds of that gift.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
But it's a.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Gift, like there's so many other people in this world
who are more talented than you and I, who work
harder than you and I, who have all these things,
who have overcome anniversary, who don't have the life we have,
who don't have the opportunities we have.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
No.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
I agree, And in that process, I said to myself, Okay,
so if I don't actually control, if I could even
wake up tomorrow, then what's actually my job as a man?
M And I realize that it's learning to stay still,
(06:05):
still enough to listen, letting go of the figuring it
out it's not your job. Yeah, you don't control it, yeah,
and then courageous enough to act.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's good. That's perspective. I like everything is gift.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I think that's a really helpful way to frame things,
because if you if you feel like you are in
control of everything, or if you don't make it happen,
it won't happen. It's like empowering and defeating at the
same time. I think people draw power from feeling like
if I can control it, I'll make it happen, like
I'm gonna get this. But then it's also defeating because
(06:45):
you live long enough you realize you can't You can't
will yourself into every scenario. You can't control things into
the way.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, the stress comes from the fear. Yeah, that if
you don't do that, right, if I don't work twenty
four hours a day and do this and take this
phone call and take all these things and do all this,
then that success won't happen or I won't get that
deal or blah blah blah blah blah, which ends up
(07:14):
being a bunch of stories we tell ourselves. But the
truth is that that's not the case, right. The case
is if you move in wholeness and clarity, then you
don't move in fear. So you stop thinking that the
lack of action or the lack of having to handle
the situation becomes problematic or stressful or anxiety or you
(07:39):
know that part. And it took me forever, and I think,
you know, I don't think any of us have are
ever arrived like we're not like, oh okay, I never
get stressed. That's a lot, you know. But it's allowed
me to recognize when I am and when my body
feels intense, to be able to be like Okay, why
(08:00):
are you tense? And is it reality or a story?
Is a reality that if I don't send this email
right now, I'm going to lose this? Or is it
a story I'm telling myself? And moving those two things,
and that leads me to my next question. Right, by
the standards of our industry, by the standards of public acceptance,
(08:21):
you've made it? Do you feel like you've made it?
Absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Does anybody successful ever feel like they made it? I
don't think.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I don't know if driven people ever feel like they
made it.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I think because.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Two reasons, two reasons why people never feel like they
made it, especially driven people. Reason number one is because
the finish line always moves right once you get exposed.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
So let's say you make fifty thousand dollars a year.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Now you're hanging around people who make sixty, so you're like, oh, shoot,
I gotta make.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Eighty, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
So then you get around the sixties and you are
you make eighty, and you get around people who make
a hundred, You're like, I gotta get to one hundred.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
You know. Now you're exposed to another realm or.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
You you know, you get invited to one industry.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Event, they're like, man, I'm in here.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
I remember the first time I got invited to like
a post Grammy event, and I was just like, all
these big names are just standing right here next to me.
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. And it was like, oh,
I got to be here all the time. This is
where I got to be. And then you get invited
to the next one, and then the next one, and
then it's like, but I didn't get invited to that one.
How do I get into this one? Because I got
(09:55):
into that one? How do I how do I make
this much? If I made that much, I can make
this much. The finish line or stops. And so I'm
not gonna mention any names, but you know, very successful
music executive person that I know well.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Was like so driven and just I was trying to understand,
like what is the drive.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
He's like, I gotta get to a billion And I said, oh,
he wanted to be a billionaire.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Now he's a billionaire. It's not over. He didn't just.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Take a seat now and say all right now I'm done. No,
now he's hanging out with other billionaires and he's like, oh,
how do I get to the I gotta get like
Jeff Bezos. So one, the finish line never, it keeps moving.
Two the idea of success is always external for people,
(10:47):
and so there's always going to be somebody to compare
yourself to. And what I have to remind myself of.
Often in success, it's not what I do compare to
other successes. What I do compared to what I created
to do. That's what I try to remind myself of.
But we're always comparing ourselves.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
But then it begs the question if success is to
be doing what you're supposed to do and what you
were made to do, then you made.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
It, You're right. But I.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Everywhere I look, the story of more is around me.
You know where we're in La I'm at I'm hanging
out with said person and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Wow, you have that? How did you get that? Or
you you what? Or you wow?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
How do I okay? And I think you just start
comparing yourself. You just start thinking well, what if?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
For what if? For what if? Instead of thinking what if?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
That story meant that you got there and you still
didn't find happiness.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
That's usually what happens. That's usually what happens.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
See I found that in success, I think my ability
to be next to someone who's the pinnacle of what
we think success is at the highest form of our business,
and find myself in a place where I was like, oh,
the personal work didn't stop. The actual fame and finance
(12:23):
didn't change anything. It didn't move the needle, It didn't
change the discomfort, it didn't change the unhappiness. It didn't
change any of the things. And then you ask yourself,
so when is it enough?
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Well, I don't know who it was.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
It was Rockefeller or one of those former billionaires who
said how much is enough?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
And he said, just a little bit more. It's always
a little bit more, you know. I mean, I.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Know the truth. I know that there's no satisfaction under
the sun. I think sometimes you just you can forget it.
You can be blinded because you're in the fog, and
you forget like, oh yeah, And here's the other thing
I've realized in my own life because I have quote
(13:14):
unquote made it. Most people don't recognize when they're content, right,
They don't recognize when they have all the things that
they love and appreciate. They only recognize what they don't have.
Like most of us ate a meal today that we liked, Like,
(13:35):
none of us are thinking about the fact that we
don't have a meal that we're not eating food we dislike.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Most of us ate a meal that we like.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
It's not until you're sitting in a prison cell somewhere
eating a government issue sandwich that you're like, Man, I
really had a great life.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, you realize that, And it's something that I felt
this week, And as I was spending some time alone.
Was we all tend to say, oh, yeah, you know,
live in the now, be beautiful about the things that
that you know, be appreciative of the things that you have.
And we say all these things about which we know
(14:14):
are true, to be true to our happiness and our
true content. But we don't actually realize that until the
feeling that your time is ready and you realize that
you really think you have another day, and you really
think that continuing to chase the outside and the external
(14:37):
is going to give you the best version of your life.
But because we don't have to face death every day,
we think about it, but we don't feel it.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
And one of the things that I've learned about manifesting
so many of my dreams is The difference between thinking
about I'm going to do something and getting it done
and receiving that gift is when I'm feeling. When I
feel like, Okay, I feel that grammy in my hand,
I know what it feels like. I know what that
night's going to feel like. I know what I'm wearing.
The moment I start feeling that, I started tracting and
(15:14):
opening my vessel to receive this. When I did that
the other way, I said, Okay, how would it actually
feel to say goodbye?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Hmm, to this world, to life.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
To life, to my to my kids? How would it
feel to just say goodbye? And that pain that you
feel inside and you're like, and then you realize, but
every day you're not living like that. Every day you're
still chasing the other car and the other award and
(15:47):
the other million dollars, as if it would actually make
a difference to the truth, which is you're actually okay,
right now, you made it.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Is this rich people talk? Though? Is this rich people talk?
I don't. Sometimes I wonder, sometimes I wonder it's just
like rich people.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
You know, they always say, people who say, just follow
your passions, they already got money.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
That's a good question. You know what. I think that
is because I feel like if I didn't have it,
i'd probably tell you the same thing. I'd be like, no,
I want to go get the world. And I don't
think that going after your dreams is bad if it's
coming from a place of wholeness, if it's coming from
a place that is actually understanding. I'm going to I
want to have a bigger house because I want to
(16:30):
enjoy it with my family. If I had an extra pool,
Mike couldn't. I want to live that experience with my family,
but not from I need that to fulfill something that's
not already here.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And if I wouldn't have achieved success, I might have
questioned and said there's no way. But when you achieve
success and you feel like you and I just talked
about for a few minutes of you're still looking around,
then you realize nothing changed.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
I want so it's funny. I want that so bad.
Like Will say the same thing. Will Smith said it,
and I was like, I agree with you. He said,
I wish everyone could see this side of it, so
they could see the emptiness. But people who haven't, like I,
don't now mind you, I haven't seen the side.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I don't know what will see.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I can see it over there, but I've seen what
I've seen, and I'm like, I want people who haven't
seen what I've seen to still believe that there's not
more fulfillment over here. There is like a false sense
of security. There is like that can go at any minute.
But I'm I do want people to be like to
see like, oh, I thought I would feel hole once
(17:36):
I got the thing, and it's like, oh you don't.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
You still wrestle, Yeah, you still wrestle with the traumas, right,
you still wrestle with the insecurity and wrestle. No, money
ain't fixed None of that money don't fix that. And
bigger houses and more rolling SYSM cars do not fix that.
As a matter of fact, you exposed is.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
That My theory is that historical trauma drives ambition, and
people who grow up in a loving, warm, like consistent
family environment are generally more content.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
They're like not trying to be the top of the top.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
They're trying to just like they don't want to be
the best surgeon in the world. They're like, yeah, I
work at the local hospital and I'm fine with that,
and I think, like ambitious. I'm an ambitious dad. So
because I came from struggle, my kids are just content
and I'm just like, hey.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Don't you want to don't you want all? And he's
like no. My son told me, he's like, I don't
have to have a house like this, and I was like,
what what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
It works so hard for this, But he's like, my
childhood was phenomenal, loving parents, It's great. I don't really
I don't have an emptiness of avoid I'm trying to
feel versus me single mom, dad on drugs, didn't grow
up with them looking for approval, looking for something, and
(19:09):
then it's like, oh, I'm gonna be something. Someone's gonna
love me out there. And that's my little theory. I
don't know, but I think that's the greatest gift. The
greatest gift is the teaching that you're actually okay because
it's the truth. I think that's the gift of God
(19:30):
in your life, which is everything that you are perceiving
is just a filter.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
You can drink that water and you can love it.
I could drink that same water and hate it. The
water never changed, just the filter that is going through
and we filter that through our trauma, our life lessons,
and our fears, and we all have those, and so
when we perceive something that happens in our lives, we're
(20:04):
putting it through that filter, and it's reminding us of something,
it's triggering something in our mind, and all of a
sudden we react from that place. And that's why I
also believe that we're all just hurt people. Even when
you grow up in the most perfect of standards, you
(20:26):
have a muscle that's more. You know, maybe his muscle
is he's content, he's happy.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
He has yeah, yeah, oh, he got some brokenness.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I mean, I'm his dad, and then there's some brokenness.
We all got it right, because we all still get
life lessons, Yeah, for sure. And that's kind of the
journey of this place, is that the true personality of
this place is that we're learning every day we're in school.
And that leads me to something. What parts of your
(21:04):
trauma do you think you deal with every day?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
This is what is it?
Speaker 1 (21:09):
This is y'alla van Oprah over here man, Okay, part
of my trauma do I deal with every day? I
think I'm always working through things, right, So.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
The muscle.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Historically, I was not a very empathetic person. I didn't
really step into other people's pain, into their shoes, into
their struggles, and so because I went through so much historically,
I'm like, get over it, you know, and just push
through it. And I think I just didn't have a
(21:49):
huge respect for people who would sit in the corner
and cry about their issues.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
And like, I can't get through this so hard, and
I was like, because I've.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Been through so much trauma, so the trauma I find
myself having to work through is being empathetic. Because I
wasn't given empathy. I wasn't given an opportunity to say,
I've been molested, I've been abused, I've been abandoned, I've
been addicted. I wasn't given the opportunity to No one
(22:23):
was empathetic with me to like say, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
How are you feeling.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I just had to power through it and and just
win by any means necessary. So that literally I feel
like God has had to humble me and break me
in places where.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I was so low that.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Now I see how low people can get, and I'm
way more empathetic, and I'm like, oh, I was low,
but I didn't work through the lowness. I was broken,
but I didn't work through the brokenness. Now, having worked
through the brokenness, it's like, now I have to fight
to be empathetic, to lean into people's issues more. That's
what I feel like. It's one of the things I
(23:10):
have to work through. I'm probably still not great at it,
but I'm better than I was, Like I don't know
seven eight years ago, like I'm not gonna put my guy.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Flex's business out in the streets.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
But I remember this had to be about eight years ago.
A situation popped up at the office and I was
just like it was it was small, relatively small. I mean,
it wasn't okay, but it was small, and I was
just like, nah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I didn't realize he was going through a lot. It
was just kind of like, hey, I don't like that.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yeah, that's it. You're you're done. And another person in
the office is like, hey, I don't know if you
know what's been going on in his world?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
And I was like what, And then she broke down
the stuff that he had been dealing with and I
was like, something said what if I was in his shoes?
And I was like, yeah, yeah, I probably would have
made similar decisions, probably worse decisions, And it was a
moment of like clarity for me to be like, oh,
(24:20):
let me be a little more empathetic.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
So I think I did all right. He's still here,
you know.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
I read a book called The Uncharted Journey and Don
the author, he speaks about right or wrong as love
or fear.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Hmmm.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
He says, you think something is right because you're processing
it through a filter of love. Right when you feel good,
you're having a good day and you're processing something. When
you heard the story of what he was going through,
then love stepped in and love was like.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
That's good, that's actually really good.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
But when you're afraid, when you're fearful because something someone
has done has triggered that thing, the trauma, and it's like, oh, nah,
you gotta go, you know, you gotta get stepping because
you're doing And we tend to look at almost every
situation in our lives, as he explains in the book,
(25:23):
through love or fear, and so our moods affect how
we process information, and the fear kicks in. And one
of the things he speaks on the book that I
thought was really great too, is you've been taught to
run away from anything that makes you uncomfortable mhm, And
(25:49):
so it's easier to judge. It's easy to bounce the
feeling of fear back to someone else than to say,
wait a second, back to our first conversation. If I'm
not in control this person and this situation, a thousand,
one million things have to happen exactly for me to
(26:09):
experience this precise situation in my life.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
And if I believe in God, then why hm, why
is it happening? What's the lesson?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
And how do you stit with that moment? And sometimes
it's oh, shoot, this is a reflection, this is the
mirror of something that I'm experience that I need to
work in. And sometimes it's just pause, learn to be still.
Because we're quick though, you know, especially when you're filled
with trauma like many of us are. The reaction number one.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Is yep, absolutely wall up or push out instead of
push through. And yeah, but I like that love or
fear because I think that that really does paint a
good picture because generally we're afraid of the worst possible outcome,
so we act on that. And and I think that's
(27:06):
the beauty of faith. Faith should not produce more fear,
like faith should fight fear.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
But for a lot of people it's like it it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
It becomes another, you know, another trauma blocker instead of
like freedom, It becomes another tool to say, well, this.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Is how I'm gonna fight now. I'm gonna use this
wall of religion to stop my trauma.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
And it's like, no, you still need to deal with that.
You know you still you still need to deal with that.
And so I think that's that's healthy. I think that's
really good.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
How do you view religion versus spirituality?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
So I think religion in the way that we in
modern day America use it the way that we perceive it,
religion is acts of penance or rituals that we do right.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Like to use marriage as an example.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
If my marriage was a religion, then I would come
home with flowers and say, hello, honey, this is what
I'm supposed to do. Here are your flowers. Happy Mother's
Day to you. I hope that you enjoy these. I
hope I did my duty right, and then like expect
(28:29):
a hug because I did my thing right, When in
reality she's like, oh, you can sleep on the couch tonight.
I would say spirituality is, or even relationship even better,
like to recognize that we're not just We exist in
a spiritual realm in world, and if we have a
(28:53):
relationship with God, it's different than just a bunch of rules.
So if I have a relationship with my wife, I
come home and I say, sweetheart, you mean the world
to me. These flowers do little to demonstrate how much
you mean to me. But it's just a small token
of my appreciation to you, because when I see them bloom,
(29:15):
I think of you and how much you've bloomed, and
how much life you give to me. And so it's
something small, But I just want to tell you how
much you mean to me. Might be a good night,
might be a good knight, you know, But that's the difference.
It's not cold and stale and fearful. And I better
do this so this doesn't happen. I better say this
(29:36):
so that doesn't happen. That's religion. Religion is, it's superstition.
It's really just like, well, let me do this because
I don't want this to happen. Let me do that,
but let me be afraid of this. It's not freedom.
Relationship is freedom. It's like I know I'm loved, I
know I'm cared for, and if I trip or step
on a crack, He's not going to break my back,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Like, I think that's the difference.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
How do you build a relationship with God?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I can tell you my initial journey was a skeptic,
so I didn't believe there was a god.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
So I was kind of like, eh, is there a God?
Is there not a God? And I think science an investigation.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I would study and try to figure stuff out, but
I think that can only lead you so far, Like
it can lead you to a point where you're like, Okay,
this does kind of make sense, right is I'm doing
the historical research, But there's an existential experience that happened for.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Me where.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
I was I encountered the living God, like you know
what I mean. Like it was an encounter where I
was like, oh, there is a God who is real,
who loves me, and for me understanding that was the
beginning of starting to cultivate that relationship, the beginning of
(30:57):
understanding like there's a gap, but all of us exist
with the gap, right, Like something's wrong. I don't know
how to fix it. Maybe if I get married, it'll
be fixed. Maybe if I get this job, it'll be fixed.
And I think all religions try to fill that gap
in some kind of way, like, oh, let me hit
(31:17):
Nirvana or let.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Me do the thing.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And I think I recognized I couldn't climb enough ropes,
I couldn't climb enough ladders. I needed God to put
that ladder down, to reach the hand down and pull
me up.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
And I firmly believe that.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
You know, two thousand years ago God became flesh and
lived the life I couldn't live, sacrificed himself, reached his
hand down and said, I will sacrifice myself to pull
you up so that you can have existence. And cultivating
that relationship has meant reading ancient biblical scriptures, hanging out
(32:01):
with people who love God and can challenge and cultivate
that in me, you know, having conversations with God, you know,
recognizing there's a spiritual realm out there that I can't access.
And I think, yeah, that's a whole nother longer conversation.
But that's what I would say, is the gist of
(32:22):
it for me.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, that's been interesting for me because I grew up
in church. My mom's a pastor, my dad's a Buddhist,
my family is Jewish, and so I grew up you
are in the inner circle of like, here is what
this actually means, this is what energy means, this is
(32:46):
what God means, and here all these things. And for
many years it was just the particular way I lived
my life. Right, I have to have a relationship God. This,
I got to be devoted. I gotta serve, I got
to do. And as I started to challenge that a bit,
I started to say, Okay, so if I look at
(33:09):
God as an external thing, as something that I have
to have a relationship with and something that takes me
to a place of joy when I'm devoted, then isn't
that the same thing that money does. When I go
after money, it just gives me a pleasure. For as
long as I'm devoted to the money, or woman, or
(33:32):
my wife or just sex, how do I separate him
from anything else that external that gives me mentally and
emotionally the same thing. I've been obsessed with the Navy
Seals since I was a kid. My family's in like
a military family. I've always loved the Navy seals, And historically,
(33:52):
I remember this line since I was like eight years old.
All the heavens, all the hells, all the angels, all
the demons are within you. And I never truly understood
that until I started to do my work, my internal work,
and I started to realize the best reflection of God
(34:15):
is me, this that I can move, and the greatest
work of devotion is understanding this computer up here, because
I tell his stories all day long, and your mind
(34:35):
doesn't actually understand the difference between reality and not. When
you're in therapy, they make you do something where it
is like close your eyes, imade yourself driving through the
pch and the breeze. It's and there's an orange and
you pull over and you see this beautiful orange and
you grab it and they say open it and bite it,
(35:00):
and your mouth creates saliva. It's not happening.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
You're in a matrix and.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
It creates saliva. And what I started to understand is,
for me, the best version of a relationship with God
was to understand the relationship with myself. Because if I
come into this water and I hit it and it
(35:28):
creates movement, that's power.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
M hm.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Your reflection, your reflection of you're an image bearer, you
bear the image of God.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
And it also taught me that the one and most
important thing is here, not money, not going to church. Now,
is here. When I'm praying, I'm speaking to my brain.
I'm speaking to my mind. I'm speaking to some say,
(36:01):
given devotion, given frtuality to bring the presence of God
in me. And it changed the dynamic of where I
put the importance of my attention to my own life.
Because you devote, especially in our business, twelve hours to
(36:25):
this work, right, sometimes twenty four hours. Then you give
another four or five hours to your family.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
What about you? Well? I always so my new, not
my new.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
My philosophy for years has been this when people say,
how do you prioritize your life?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
How do you balance it? Which neither one of us
believe in the time balance.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
And I would always tell people, I say, all right,
here's how balance it. I'm a man with a wife
and kids and global influence. Right, what do I do?
How do I prioritize? And I say, I start with
myself first? And that always makes people shocked, especially like Christians.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
They're like, whoa, whoa, why you first?
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I say, because if I'm not mentally, spiritually and emotionally healthy,
I'm no good for anybody else. I cannot help anyone else.
So if I'm not connected to God, if I'm not
emotionally and mentally sound, I'm a vegetable who can lead
people nowhere. I don't do a good job leading my
(37:31):
kids anywhere healthy, I don't do a good job being
a good husband. I don't do a good job for
the world that would pay attention to me. So I'm
a big fan of saying prioritize, not in a selfish way,
but in the most selfless way possible, by like saying,
let me make sure I'm healthy so that I can
It's kind of like the gas mask that comes down
(37:52):
from the airplane. It's like, put it over yourself first
so that you can help other people, not.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Just so you can put it on and be like,
all right, I hope you all survive. Yeah, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
So, yeah, your career has kind of mirrord the growth
of I was saving Christianity as it's developed in growth,
because I remember when I started, and I like, it's crazy,
because you know, those things that impact your life. I
remember having a call with the truth at the time,
and I was started as a producer and I was like, man,
(38:24):
I want to produce for you, like I have created
this company a cross over entertainment and I want to
do this, and him saying, oh, man, you work with
secular artist, I can't work with you. Like it was
so impactful to my life that I remember where I
was sitting in my room when they happened, you know
what I mean, Like it was like what does that
(38:45):
actually mean? And I remember in those times and that
era of church where like you have to come in
and like throw away your secular CDs in the garbage
two where you've seen the evolution of you know where
it's at today and how is developed and growth and
how you know church is like vood church And why
(39:06):
do you think that change happened? And how has that changed?
How you've grown your career, the decisions you make in
building your music.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
I think some of it is generational.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I think you you can't dismiss the role that culture
plays in society, and culture is always going to influence
the church. The whole idea of a megachurch was birth
out of the idea of suburbs being created, so it
was a reflection of suburbs. And I think generationally, when
you look at like, you know, gen xers, they are
(39:46):
more along the lines of like, hey impact the culture,
but don't get in the culture.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Like they're more like, hey, let's.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Create a Christian club or a Christian this or a
Christian that.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
And that's a big gen X mindset.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
It still exists, but people don't know that they're influenced
by like that gen X mindset where they grew up
in an era where you created a hip hop club
or you create you know, that was just the era.
The time everything was like culturally segregated, and so.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
They were following that model. I think when you get
to the millennials, millennials or less influenced by like these sects.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Millennials are more like, well, I just want to weave
in it and be a light and spread hope in
the mess. So whereas gen X is like, let's do
a Christian club, Millennials a little more like, let's be
Christians in the club. You know what I'm saying, Like,
what does that look like? Can that be done? And
(41:13):
then Millennials, I would say, got disillusioned and stuff just
got muddy and They're like, I don't know, none of
this is making sense, and so they either retreat and
go back to the gen X ways and say we're
just gonna do everything like this, or they say I
don't know and they throw it all off, which leaves
gen Z saying, we don't like any of the stuff
(41:34):
y'all doing. We just want to know about God, you
know what I mean. I don't get all this stuff.
And so I work with gen Z's, I live with
gen Z's, you know, and one Gen Alpha, and they're
just less restricted by these formats.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
They just want to flow.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
So I think what's happened is specifically like church and
society and church and culture, is that some have said
we're not gonna follow these traditional paths.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
We're trying to impact culture.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
In order to impact culture, we've got to think about
what culture cares about, what they are influenced by, So
let's try to meet them in these unique ways.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
And I my son, like.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
For me, it would have been weird or corny or
like overly religious to wear a hat that says christ
like on it.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
It had been like, ooh, I can't wear that. That's
too much man. For him, He's like, why not. It's cool.
I don't care.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
I'm virgin, no big deal, and he's not shunned for it.
It's actually like, oh cool, bro, you know because the
gen z is like, oh that's whatever, bro, Like you
do you? I do, mean whatever whatever. I respect that,
and I think, man, the churches who will succeed are
going to be those who are both unashamed of who
they are, their identity, but also aware of where society
(43:03):
and culture is and how to connect with them.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
So do you feel in a box? You know, like
coming up? Lucraig Christian artists, lak Craze just an artist.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, I've always been like I always wanted to push
back on the systems. I just didn't know because I
didn't know they existed. I didn' grow up in church,
so I don't know. I don't know all the rules.
I just knew I loved the Lord and I wanted
to make music, and I was like, how do I
do that?
Speaker 3 (43:35):
I didn't know there was rules. So when they told me.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
When I first started doing music, I went to the
mainstream labels and they were like, oh no, this is
this is too churchy. You should go try the gospel labels.
So I'm like, all right, cool, I go to the
gospel labels, They're like.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Churchy enough, you need to go to the hip hop,
the mainstream label.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
So I was like, oh, I guess I just got
to do this myself because it didn't make I didn't know,
you know, the first album that I bought that I
didn't grow up on gospel music.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
I don't know gospel music to this day. I don't
even grow up on it.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
The first Christian album I got was Lauren Hill to
Miseducation Lauryn Hill, Like.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
To me, that was a Christian album. I didn't know.
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
So talking about music and building your own label, what
do you consider your style of leadership to be.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
It's evolved over the years, so, you know, being an
artist and a label owner, I think we looked to
people historically like jay Z, you know, who was able
to build this incredible empire and like highlight these artists
(44:47):
at the same time. And so that was a healthy
model that I was trying to figure out how to
follow because a lot of artists start labels and then
they're just always bigger than.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Their other artists, right, it never works.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
But for whatever reason, Jay, it was working for him,
and it's continued to work for him. So I was
trying to understand the model and two things that I learned.
One is delegation, right is learn how to be a delegator.
Control is an illusion. You're not always going to have control.
You don't have to have your hand on everything. Learn
how to develop and find people you can trust to
(45:25):
do the things that you need to get done. And
I don't feel the pressure to have to be the
expert on everything anymore.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
I'm like, that's what.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
I hired you for, you know what I mean, So
that you got to lose some ego in order to
do that, but then you allow people to thrive. So
I just try to create entrepreneurs who want to thrive
in their own capacity. If you're not an entrepreneur, if
you need to be micromanaged, you're not going to thrive
under me, because you're going.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
To keep saying so what do I SO? What do I?
SO do I? And I'm going to say this isn't
this isn't gonna work.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
You know I feel that. Yeah, let's talk about fatherhood.
What do you teach your kids about dealing with hard times?
Speaker 1 (46:07):
I mean, you know, first and foremost obviously, everything happens,
you know, in God's time, Like you know, be patient
because God isn't late, So you gotta trust that there's
a process beyond your understanding. Practically, I try to create
(46:35):
difficulty and challenges for them because their life is really
like so awesome, So I have to like manufacture hardships.
Sometimes life is going to give them some harshness, but
the kind that I want them to have, so they
have grit in this world and they you know, I
(46:56):
have to manufacture some of those particular things, and so
you know, I create storms for them. Sometimes. My son was,
you know, thinking that life was sweet and he just
gets money for this, and oh I want that, I
want this, And I was like, oh, by the way,
you need you're fourteen, you can work, so you got
(47:17):
to get a job. He's like what, I'm like, yeah,
you got to get a job. So he had to
get a job. But then it taught him the value
of hard work, telling them the value of earning something on
his own. And then you know it's kind of like, hey,
you got to figure out how you're going to get there. Well,
if you're late, you know, you got to deal with
those consequences and just creating scenarios for them so that
(47:41):
they're removed from the idea of everything is just going
to work out for them, you know, just trying to
create scenarios.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
And then last thing I would just say is.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
I always tell him this, but I think only my
daughter gets it, probably because women generally connect face to face,
men connect side by side. They need an activity to
do in order to connect. But I tell them, you're
gonna need friends to walk through hard times with.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
You're just gonna meet. And my son's like, oh.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Tell my friends all my hard times. And I'm like, okay,
you live, keep living, Like my mom would say. My daughter,
on the other hand, she would her and her friends
with just.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Talk and they just work stuff out. And and I'm
just like she gets it. The boys, I don't know,
We'll see.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
It's interesting, you know, because I I have a two
and a half year old, so I don't get to
have the conversations about you read times. Yeah, but one
of the things that I saw as she was growing
up was really when she got in the place of distress.
You know, of course, as parents, the first thing you
(48:47):
want to just like go try to get the baby right.
And and I had learned this lesson that I read
in the book, which was we've been taught to tell
our friends or even tell ourselves when we're going through something,
don't worry the lights. The light at the end of
the tunnel's coming, like, don't worry. You're gonna be okay,
and you're gonna like time will pass. And in the
(49:11):
book they say the realization is learn to love the fire.
M m m hm, because in the fire is the
actual lesson.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
And I was like, I wonder if this works. Like
a two year olds and I one day, she was
like in her ballpen and she started to get frustrated
and my wife went running trying to get her, and
I said, leave her, Let's see what happens. And she
(49:43):
was like and then she calmed herself, who loved herself up?
And I was like, oh, yeah, she learned to dance
in the midst of her uncomfortable situation. And they gave
her at two years old, your mind understood the shift
(50:07):
condor and get a clear direction now, And I was like, wow,
that's such the way that we go through life. We're
so afraid of going through the fire. At least I
know historically I have that we try to learn, not
learn the lesson, and then life comes again and goes, Oh,
(50:27):
you know, learning well in school and it goes again.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
And then talking about frameworks and mental frameworks that we use.
You know, I heard you speaking in another conversation about
you know, therapy and how it's helped you. Is there
a mental framework you've learned through your time doing therapy
and working yourself that you think is the most effective
to dealing with everyday life and dealing with your traumas.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Yeah, there's a new mantra that my therapist guy me.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
You know, I was telling her about my.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Family of origin and we have all these unwritten family rules.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
A lot of people, most people have them.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
They don't realize it, right, Like, you have these unwritten
things in your mind that your family instilled in you.
But they're they're they're made up rules, they're not real,
but you're you don't want to disappoint your family, so
you abide by these rules. And you know, one of
my family rules was don't tell people your business.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
It's just an.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Unwritten family rule. Grandma cousins, everyone, don't tell people your business.
And my therapist is like, hey, you have the right
to choose no, Like you're your own person. You can
say no to this unwritten family rule, especially if.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
It's not like sacred in like in stone something.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
You know. It's like, oh, and so now I give
myself the right to choose no to things that I
have made in my mind as these like written rules
that I'm like, where even get that from?
Speaker 3 (52:01):
Like? Why do I even who taught me this? Men
don't cry? Where did you get that? Where did that
come from? Why do you think that? You know what
I mean? Just little things that don't really have bearing.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
I've learned to like, wait a minute, why do I
think this? And this is true?
Speaker 3 (52:21):
No?
Speaker 1 (52:22):
Move on? I can move on, you know. I wrap
I come from a particular environment. I can smile. I'm
allowed to smile. It's okay to smile. I can be friendly.
I don't have to you know, I don't have to
be what you say, culture, tradition, all these unwritten rules
(52:44):
say I have to be.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
I can choose no. And That's what I've been doing.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
I love that, and it talks to what we've been
talking about this whole conversation. The stories we tell ourselves,
you know, and how your mind perceives those stories to
the truth and you live by them, Yeah, for sure,
and you end up imprisoning yourself in those stories. Yep,
what are you afraid of?
Speaker 3 (53:07):
Being my father? Just being candid. Greatest fear my father.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
He had a job, lost his job, lost his family,
spiraled the out. You know, probably I don't know, dealt
with depression, self medicated and ended up homeless, and you know,
self medicating to fight it. And I think my greatest
(53:43):
fear is to follow in those footsteps. It is to
some kind of way, it haunts me, like, if you
make this move, You're going to be him. And I've
had to fight against that my whole life. I only
realized I thought that within the last five years, you know,
so I didn't realize that was a subconscious thing, like
(54:07):
why am I grinding so hard? Why am I pushing
so hard? And now in hindsight, I'm like, oh, I'm
afraid to be my dad.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
That's what I'm afraid of.
Speaker 1 (54:16):
Because when you see the worst possible outcome, you know
what could happen, and you make up in your.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Mind that that's going to be your reality.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
I have another one of my friends who he got
on a plane and he took off, he went to
do a show. He came while he was out doing
a show, he got a phone call that his one
year old had passed away. And now he's trained his
mind to believe that every time he gets on a plane,
another one of his kids will lose their life, you know.
(54:46):
So that trauma has informed him of something that's not
true and created a fear. And so the fear that
I live with is that, oh, if I don't get
this right, I'm going to be my dad.
Speaker 3 (54:59):
So it's not true, but it's still a fear, or
maybe it is true.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
One of the tools that I've I've learned to start
healing these traumas is to go into the inner child
at that first moment. Let's use this situation as an
example that La Cree felt.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
I don't want to beg mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
Tears, Like that moment for me? Is that moment for me,
It's okay to cry, Look cray, It's okay to cry. Man,
do cry, man, do cry. But that shifted the way
because I realized that even though I had gone to
(55:49):
therapy and I was dealing with all these things, like
the feeling was still there. The story was still there,
and it wasn't until like I could phased that little
boy that like, because it was like you didn't really
know where the trauma was actually coming until that moment
that first time. Like, remember, I remember the truth being
(56:11):
in my room saying that to me, and I remember
how I shattered my dreams at that time, at that moment.
You know, as a kid, when do you feel the
closest to your truest self?
Speaker 1 (56:25):
If I'm being honest, I'm still processing who who I am?
You know what I'm saying. So I haven't been given
a model for me, and so I'm like a prototype.
(56:49):
I don't see another version of me out there. If
that makes sense that I can say, Okay, there's so
I'm trying to understand. I like categories and even I
defy categories. So for me, it's like, way, who who
am I?
Speaker 3 (57:08):
I'm getting closer.
Speaker 1 (57:10):
So when I can embrace that I don't fit, I
feel like I'm closer to being honest with myself about
who I am. I think I've innately always wanted to
fit so bad somewhere where do I fit? And the
closer I understand I don't fit, I wanted to fit
(57:32):
in with my uncles who were you know, in the streets.
I wanted to fit in with hip hop culture. I
wanted to fit in with the Christian culture, the church culture.
And it's like I don't fit in any of those,
but I fit in all of those, and so it's
like who what am I? And I think as I
(57:53):
begin to admit, like, hey, you don't really nicely fit,
I get closer to like understand and this is who
I am.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (58:03):
But I you know, and at the core, I don't
think that's my identity. My identity transcends all of that.
Speaker 3 (58:10):
But that's that's the process I'm in right now, trying
to be okay with a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (58:18):
If God can grant you one desire, what would it be?
Speaker 3 (58:24):
Clear vision, just clear, just see things clear, see the
word clear, see him clear, see culture clear. I just
I can't even imagine. Like I feel like like Jesus
walked the earth and he just was like clear as much,
just clear, just like just like oh, they're stoning this prostitute,
(58:45):
they're killing her, and he just walks over and just
let me write something in the sand. And everyone's like.
Speaker 1 (58:54):
It's like, oh, he saw it he just yeah, just clear.
I mean they probably killed me for seeing clear, but
I'd like.
Speaker 3 (59:00):
To see it.
Speaker 2 (59:02):
So at the end of every episode we do an exercise.
My belief is words have power, and we talk to ourselves,
and we're with ourselves more than we are with anybody else.
Your mind can perceive the difference between reality or not.
(59:25):
It only believes what you say it. So what is
one word or one phrase that you can tell yourself
that will change how you perceive today and the rest
of this week. M what does your heart and your
mind need to.
Speaker 3 (59:40):
Hear You're accepted. You're accepted. You know.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
I think that's something I screamed from the mountaintops all
the time. Is because I'm not just telling other people that,
I'm telling myself that. So I always need to be
reminded You're accepted, You're You're good.
Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Well, great, thank you for being on the show. So
excited for our conversation and first of many.
Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
This man, Thank you, Oprah Junior.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Over here You Versus You as a production of Neon
sixteen and Entertained Studios in partnership with the Iheartmichael Tuda
podcast Network. For more podcasts, listen to the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Two reasons why people never feel like they made it.
Reason number one is because.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's a great Men do cry?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Is this rich people talk, people who say, just follow
your passions. They already got money versus me, single mom, dad.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
On success is to be doing what you're supposed to
do and what you were made to do. Things you're right.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Religion is who taught me this? Men don't cry? Where? What?
Where did you get that? Where did that come from?
What are you afraid of? Greatest fear?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome to another episode of You Versus You. On this
week's episode, I have artist, author, and fellow podcaster Lacraine
over In the span of his career, he's transformed and
changed the rules of Christian hip hop, becoming one of
the hottest artists of our generation. He's overcome child trauma
and every university you could think of on his way
to winning four Grammys, becoming a father, I mean, an
inspiration too many great Welcome to the universes you.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
It's a pleasure. And I got to tell you the
process of life for us to be here together, because
I feel like I've grown as you grow, Right Like
if I look back at fifteen year old Legs who
was trying to change Christian music and create a crossover entertainment.
And at the same time that this young cat La
(01:20):
Craze was getting, you know, into the game. And I
remember those moments and I see the transition. I think
throughout that until now, I think we've sat maybe three
times in different circumstances, but never have had the opportunity
to sit down and have a good one on one
and get to know each other. I'll start with the
simplest question. Okay, how does lucreze the human field today?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
How does the human feel today? It's a good question.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I feel I feel good, but good from the standpoint
of like usually lead their stress or there's chaos, or
there's a fire to put out. Today there's no fire
I'm trying to put out, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
So it's like, oh, I'm just I'm good.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, how do you deal with stress in the fires
and the things that life throws at you?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Because on what day you ask me? Because on what
season of life I'm in?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
You know what I mean, I'm I'm I'm wired anxious.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
So I think from childhood trauma to adult trauma, I'm
like a glass of water with a paper towel on
top that drops of water have just been dripping on.
And you know when that paper towel breaks, it's either chaos,
(02:55):
or it's depression, or it's an anxiety attack, or it's some.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
And for generally for people.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
For me, I've experienced all those things nowadays.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Stressed.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
For me, the way I navigated practically is I just
tried to ask myself, what about this is stressing me out?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
And what can I do about it?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's typically what I try to do now because I
don't want to go to a place of like anxiety
or chaos.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, in that process, have you been able to identify
the true cause of why you even stress?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Sometimes I can't remember what it was, but it was
something specifically that I was stressed out about. And I
feel like it was a conversation I was having with
somebody and I was like, why is this conversation stressing
me out so much? And I couldn't figure out like
it was a regular person, like it wasn't. I was like,
what is stressing me about the conversation? And I thought
(03:58):
about it and I was like, oh, because.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I'm wrestling with.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Control right now, and I and they're interrupting my ability
to have control.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
I want control.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So I was like I had to say, oh, you
don't have control, and that's okay. And then I was like, okay,
it's fine, you don't have control and it's okay. And
then I was okay. But I wanted to control every scenario.
I wanted to make it all just go to where
I wanted to go and it and once I let
that go, then it was kind of like, okay, you're
(04:35):
all right.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
You know, it's crazy about that. We've been trained to
think that the only way to survive is by control,
even when you think about Wall Street, grab the bull
by the horse, right, like, we've been taught we must
take control, we must be the driver, right. And it
took me doing that for twenty three years of my
(04:57):
career to end up in a place where I finally
understood I don't actually control anything, even when I think
I do. And then it gave me a beautiful revelation,
which is we actually don't earn anything. Hm hmm, it's
all a gift.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Hmmm. That's perspective. I agree with that.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
And what we do with our discipline, our hard work,
our dedication, our focus is we're good shepherds of that gift.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
But it's a.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Gift, like there's so many other people in this world
who are more talented than you and I, who work
harder than you and I, who have all these things,
who have overcome anniversary, who don't have the life we have,
who don't have the opportunities we have.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
No.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
I agree, And in that process, I said to myself, Okay,
so if I don't actually control, if I could even
wake up tomorrow, then what's actually my job as a man?
M And I realize that it's learning to stay still,
(06:05):
still enough to listen, letting go of the figuring it
out it's not your job. Yeah, you don't control it, yeah,
and then courageous enough to act.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's good. That's perspective. I like everything is gift.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I think that's a really helpful way to frame things,
because if you if you feel like you are in
control of everything, or if you don't make it happen,
it won't happen. It's like empowering and defeating at the
same time. I think people draw power from feeling like
if I can control it, I'll make it happen, like
I'm gonna get this. But then it's also defeating because
(06:45):
you live long enough you realize you can't You can't
will yourself into every scenario. You can't control things into
the way.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, the stress comes from the fear. Yeah, that if
you don't do that, right, if I don't work twenty
four hours a day and do this and take this
phone call and take all these things and do all this,
then that success won't happen or I won't get that
deal or blah blah blah blah blah, which ends up
(07:14):
being a bunch of stories we tell ourselves. But the
truth is that that's not the case, right. The case
is if you move in wholeness and clarity, then you
don't move in fear. So you stop thinking that the
lack of action or the lack of having to handle
the situation becomes problematic or stressful or anxiety or you
(07:39):
know that part. And it took me forever, and I think,
you know, I don't think any of us have are
ever arrived like we're not like, oh okay, I never
get stressed. That's a lot, you know. But it's allowed
me to recognize when I am and when my body
feels intense, to be able to be like Okay, why
(08:00):
are you tense? And is it reality or a story?
Is a reality that if I don't send this email
right now, I'm going to lose this? Or is it
a story I'm telling myself? And moving those two things,
and that leads me to my next question. Right, by
the standards of our industry, by the standards of public acceptance,
(08:21):
you've made it? Do you feel like you've made it?
Absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Does anybody successful ever feel like they made it? I
don't think.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I don't know if driven people ever feel like they
made it.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I think because.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Two reasons, two reasons why people never feel like they
made it, especially driven people. Reason number one is because
the finish line always moves right once you get exposed.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
So let's say you make fifty thousand dollars a year.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Now you're hanging around people who make sixty, so you're like, oh, shoot,
I gotta make.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Eighty, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
So then you get around the sixties and you are
you make eighty, and you get around people who make
a hundred, You're like, I gotta get to one hundred.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
You know. Now you're exposed to another realm or.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
You you know, you get invited to one industry.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Event, they're like, man, I'm in here.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
I remember the first time I got invited to like
a post Grammy event, and I was just like, all
these big names are just standing right here next to me.
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. And it was like, oh,
I got to be here all the time. This is
where I got to be. And then you get invited
to the next one, and then the next one, and
then it's like, but I didn't get invited to that one.
How do I get into this one? Because I got
(09:55):
into that one? How do I how do I make
this much? If I made that much, I can make
this much. The finish line or stops. And so I'm
not gonna mention any names, but you know, very successful
music executive person that I know well.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Was like so driven and just I was trying to understand,
like what is the drive.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
He's like, I gotta get to a billion And I said, oh,
he wanted to be a billionaire.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Now he's a billionaire. It's not over. He didn't just.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Take a seat now and say all right now I'm done. No,
now he's hanging out with other billionaires and he's like, oh,
how do I get to the I gotta get like
Jeff Bezos. So one, the finish line never, it keeps moving.
Two the idea of success is always external for people,
(10:47):
and so there's always going to be somebody to compare
yourself to. And what I have to remind myself of.
Often in success, it's not what I do compare to
other successes. What I do compared to what I created
to do. That's what I try to remind myself of.
But we're always comparing ourselves.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
But then it begs the question if success is to
be doing what you're supposed to do and what you
were made to do, then you made.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
It, You're right. But I.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Everywhere I look, the story of more is around me.
You know where we're in La I'm at I'm hanging
out with said person and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Wow, you have that? How did you get that? Or
you you what? Or you wow?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
How do I okay? And I think you just start
comparing yourself. You just start thinking well, what if?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
For what if? For what if? Instead of thinking what if?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
That story meant that you got there and you still
didn't find happiness.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
That's usually what happens. That's usually what happens.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
See I found that in success, I think my ability
to be next to someone who's the pinnacle of what
we think success is at the highest form of our business,
and find myself in a place where I was like, oh,
the personal work didn't stop. The actual fame and finance
(12:23):
didn't change anything. It didn't move the needle, It didn't
change the discomfort, it didn't change the unhappiness. It didn't
change any of the things. And then you ask yourself,
so when is it enough?
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Well, I don't know who it was.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
It was Rockefeller or one of those former billionaires who
said how much is enough?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
And he said, just a little bit more. It's always
a little bit more, you know. I mean, I.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Know the truth. I know that there's no satisfaction under
the sun. I think sometimes you just you can forget it.
You can be blinded because you're in the fog, and
you forget like, oh yeah, And here's the other thing
I've realized in my own life because I have quote
(13:14):
unquote made it. Most people don't recognize when they're content, right,
They don't recognize when they have all the things that
they love and appreciate. They only recognize what they don't have.
Like most of us ate a meal today that we liked, Like,
(13:35):
none of us are thinking about the fact that we
don't have a meal that we're not eating food we dislike.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Most of us ate a meal that we like.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
It's not until you're sitting in a prison cell somewhere
eating a government issue sandwich that you're like, Man, I
really had a great life.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, you realize that, And it's something that I felt
this week, And as I was spending some time alone.
Was we all tend to say, oh, yeah, you know,
live in the now, be beautiful about the things that
that you know, be appreciative of the things that you have.
And we say all these things about which we know
(14:14):
are true, to be true to our happiness and our
true content. But we don't actually realize that until the
feeling that your time is ready and you realize that
you really think you have another day, and you really
think that continuing to chase the outside and the external
(14:37):
is going to give you the best version of your life.
But because we don't have to face death every day,
we think about it, but we don't feel it.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
And one of the things that I've learned about manifesting
so many of my dreams is The difference between thinking
about I'm going to do something and getting it done
and receiving that gift is when I'm feeling. When I
feel like, Okay, I feel that grammy in my hand,
I know what it feels like. I know what that
night's going to feel like. I know what I'm wearing.
The moment I start feeling that, I started tracting and
(15:14):
opening my vessel to receive this. When I did that
the other way, I said, Okay, how would it actually
feel to say goodbye?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Hmm, to this world, to life.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
To life, to my to my kids? How would it
feel to just say goodbye? And that pain that you
feel inside and you're like, and then you realize, but
every day you're not living like that. Every day you're
still chasing the other car and the other award and
(15:47):
the other million dollars, as if it would actually make
a difference to the truth, which is you're actually okay,
right now, you made it.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Is this rich people talk? Though? Is this rich people talk?
I don't. Sometimes I wonder, sometimes I wonder it's just
like rich people.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
You know, they always say, people who say, just follow
your passions, they already got money.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
That's a good question. You know what. I think that
is because I feel like if I didn't have it,
i'd probably tell you the same thing. I'd be like, no,
I want to go get the world. And I don't
think that going after your dreams is bad if it's
coming from a place of wholeness, if it's coming from
a place that is actually understanding. I'm going to I
want to have a bigger house because I want to
(16:30):
enjoy it with my family. If I had an extra pool,
Mike couldn't. I want to live that experience with my family,
but not from I need that to fulfill something that's
not already here.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And if I wouldn't have achieved success, I might have
questioned and said there's no way. But when you achieve
success and you feel like you and I just talked
about for a few minutes of you're still looking around,
then you realize nothing changed.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
I want so it's funny. I want that so bad.
Like Will say the same thing. Will Smith said it,
and I was like, I agree with you. He said,
I wish everyone could see this side of it, so
they could see the emptiness. But people who haven't, like I,
don't now mind you, I haven't seen the side.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I don't know what will see.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I can see it over there, but I've seen what
I've seen, and I'm like, I want people who haven't
seen what I've seen to still believe that there's not
more fulfillment over here. There is like a false sense
of security. There is like that can go at any minute.
But I'm I do want people to be like to
see like, oh, I thought I would feel hole once
(17:36):
I got the thing, and it's like, oh you don't.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
You still wrestle, Yeah, you still wrestle with the traumas, right,
you still wrestle with the insecurity and wrestle. No, money
ain't fixed None of that money don't fix that. And
bigger houses and more rolling SYSM cars do not fix that.
As a matter of fact, you exposed is.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
That My theory is that historical trauma drives ambition, and
people who grow up in a loving, warm, like consistent
family environment are generally more content.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
They're like not trying to be the top of the top.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
They're trying to just like they don't want to be
the best surgeon in the world. They're like, yeah, I
work at the local hospital and I'm fine with that,
and I think, like ambitious. I'm an ambitious dad. So
because I came from struggle, my kids are just content
and I'm just like, hey.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Don't you want to don't you want all? And he's
like no. My son told me, he's like, I don't
have to have a house like this, and I was like,
what what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
It works so hard for this, But he's like, my
childhood was phenomenal, loving parents, It's great. I don't really
I don't have an emptiness of avoid I'm trying to
feel versus me single mom, dad on drugs, didn't grow
up with them looking for approval, looking for something, and
(19:09):
then it's like, oh, I'm gonna be something. Someone's gonna
love me out there. And that's my little theory. I
don't know, but I think that's the greatest gift. The
greatest gift is the teaching that you're actually okay because
it's the truth. I think that's the gift of God
(19:30):
in your life, which is everything that you are perceiving
is just a filter.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
You can drink that water and you can love it.
I could drink that same water and hate it. The
water never changed, just the filter that is going through
and we filter that through our trauma, our life lessons,
and our fears, and we all have those, and so
when we perceive something that happens in our lives, we're
(20:04):
putting it through that filter, and it's reminding us of something,
it's triggering something in our mind, and all of a
sudden we react from that place. And that's why I
also believe that we're all just hurt people. Even when
you grow up in the most perfect of standards, you
(20:26):
have a muscle that's more. You know, maybe his muscle
is he's content, he's happy.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
He has yeah, yeah, oh, he got some brokenness.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I mean, I'm his dad, and then there's some brokenness.
We all got it right, because we all still get
life lessons, Yeah, for sure. And that's kind of the
journey of this place, is that the true personality of
this place is that we're learning every day we're in school.
And that leads me to something. What parts of your
(21:04):
trauma do you think you deal with every day?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
This is what is it?
Speaker 1 (21:09):
This is y'alla van Oprah over here man, Okay, part
of my trauma do I deal with every day? I
think I'm always working through things, right, So.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
The muscle.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Historically, I was not a very empathetic person. I didn't
really step into other people's pain, into their shoes, into
their struggles, and so because I went through so much historically,
I'm like, get over it, you know, and just push
through it. And I think I just didn't have a
(21:49):
huge respect for people who would sit in the corner
and cry about their issues.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
And like, I can't get through this so hard, and
I was like, because I've.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Been through so much trauma, so the trauma I find
myself having to work through is being empathetic. Because I
wasn't given empathy. I wasn't given an opportunity to say,
I've been molested, I've been abused, I've been abandoned, I've
been addicted. I wasn't given the opportunity to No one
(22:23):
was empathetic with me to like say, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
How are you feeling.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I just had to power through it and and just
win by any means necessary. So that literally I feel
like God has had to humble me and break me
in places where.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I was so low that.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Now I see how low people can get, and I'm
way more empathetic, and I'm like, oh, I was low,
but I didn't work through the lowness. I was broken,
but I didn't work through the brokenness. Now, having worked
through the brokenness, it's like, now I have to fight
to be empathetic, to lean into people's issues more. That's
what I feel like. It's one of the things I
(23:10):
have to work through. I'm probably still not great at it,
but I'm better than I was, Like I don't know
seven eight years ago, like I'm not gonna put my guy.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Flex's business out in the streets.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
But I remember this had to be about eight years ago.
A situation popped up at the office and I was
just like it was it was small, relatively small. I mean,
it wasn't okay, but it was small, and I was
just like, nah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I didn't realize he was going through a lot. It
was just kind of like, hey, I don't like that.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yeah, that's it. You're you're done. And another person in
the office is like, hey, I don't know if you
know what's been going on in his world?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
And I was like what, And then she broke down
the stuff that he had been dealing with and I
was like, something said what if I was in his shoes?
And I was like, yeah, yeah, I probably would have
made similar decisions, probably worse decisions, And it was a
moment of like clarity for me to be like, oh,
(24:20):
let me be a little more empathetic.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
So I think I did all right. He's still here,
you know.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
I read a book called The Uncharted Journey and Don
the author, he speaks about right or wrong as love
or fear.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Hmmm.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
He says, you think something is right because you're processing
it through a filter of love. Right when you feel good,
you're having a good day and you're processing something. When
you heard the story of what he was going through,
then love stepped in and love was like.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
That's good, that's actually really good.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
But when you're afraid, when you're fearful because something someone
has done has triggered that thing, the trauma, and it's like, oh, nah,
you gotta go, you know, you gotta get stepping because
you're doing And we tend to look at almost every
situation in our lives, as he explains in the book,
(25:23):
through love or fear, and so our moods affect how
we process information, and the fear kicks in. And one
of the things he speaks on the book that I
thought was really great too, is you've been taught to
run away from anything that makes you uncomfortable mhm, And
(25:49):
so it's easier to judge. It's easy to bounce the
feeling of fear back to someone else than to say,
wait a second, back to our first conversation. If I'm
not in control this person and this situation, a thousand,
one million things have to happen exactly for me to
(26:09):
experience this precise situation in my life.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
And if I believe in God, then why hm, why
is it happening? What's the lesson?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
And how do you stit with that moment? And sometimes
it's oh, shoot, this is a reflection, this is the
mirror of something that I'm experience that I need to
work in. And sometimes it's just pause, learn to be still.
Because we're quick though, you know, especially when you're filled
with trauma like many of us are. The reaction number one.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Is yep, absolutely wall up or push out instead of
push through. And yeah, but I like that love or
fear because I think that that really does paint a
good picture because generally we're afraid of the worst possible outcome,
so we act on that. And and I think that's
(27:06):
the beauty of faith. Faith should not produce more fear,
like faith should fight fear.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
But for a lot of people it's like it it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
It becomes another, you know, another trauma blocker instead of
like freedom, It becomes another tool to say, well, this.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Is how I'm gonna fight now. I'm gonna use this
wall of religion to stop my trauma.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
And it's like, no, you still need to deal with that.
You know you still you still need to deal with that.
And so I think that's that's healthy. I think that's
really good.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
How do you view religion versus spirituality?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
So I think religion in the way that we in
modern day America use it the way that we perceive it,
religion is acts of penance or rituals that we do right.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Like to use marriage as an example.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
If my marriage was a religion, then I would come
home with flowers and say, hello, honey, this is what
I'm supposed to do. Here are your flowers. Happy Mother's
Day to you. I hope that you enjoy these. I
hope I did my duty right, and then like expect
(28:29):
a hug because I did my thing right, When in
reality she's like, oh, you can sleep on the couch tonight.
I would say spirituality is, or even relationship even better,
like to recognize that we're not just We exist in
a spiritual realm in world, and if we have a
(28:53):
relationship with God, it's different than just a bunch of rules.
So if I have a relationship with my wife, I
come home and I say, sweetheart, you mean the world
to me. These flowers do little to demonstrate how much
you mean to me. But it's just a small token
of my appreciation to you, because when I see them bloom,
(29:15):
I think of you and how much you've bloomed, and
how much life you give to me. And so it's
something small, But I just want to tell you how
much you mean to me. Might be a good night,
might be a good knight, you know, But that's the difference.
It's not cold and stale and fearful. And I better
do this so this doesn't happen. I better say this
(29:36):
so that doesn't happen. That's religion. Religion is, it's superstition.
It's really just like, well, let me do this because
I don't want this to happen. Let me do that,
but let me be afraid of this. It's not freedom.
Relationship is freedom. It's like I know I'm loved, I
know I'm cared for, and if I trip or step
on a crack, He's not going to break my back,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Like, I think that's the difference.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
How do you build a relationship with God?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I can tell you my initial journey was a skeptic,
so I didn't believe there was a god.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
So I was kind of like, eh, is there a God?
Is there not a God? And I think science an investigation.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I would study and try to figure stuff out, but
I think that can only lead you so far, Like
it can lead you to a point where you're like, Okay,
this does kind of make sense, right is I'm doing
the historical research, But there's an existential experience that happened for.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Me where.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
I was I encountered the living God, like you know
what I mean. Like it was an encounter where I
was like, oh, there is a God who is real,
who loves me, and for me understanding that was the
beginning of starting to cultivate that relationship, the beginning of
(30:57):
understanding like there's a gap, but all of us exist
with the gap, right, Like something's wrong. I don't know
how to fix it. Maybe if I get married, it'll
be fixed. Maybe if I get this job, it'll be fixed.
And I think all religions try to fill that gap
in some kind of way, like, oh, let me hit
(31:17):
Nirvana or let.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Me do the thing.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And I think I recognized I couldn't climb enough ropes,
I couldn't climb enough ladders. I needed God to put
that ladder down, to reach the hand down and pull
me up.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
And I firmly believe that.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
You know, two thousand years ago God became flesh and
lived the life I couldn't live, sacrificed himself, reached his
hand down and said, I will sacrifice myself to pull
you up so that you can have existence. And cultivating
that relationship has meant reading ancient biblical scriptures, hanging out
(32:01):
with people who love God and can challenge and cultivate
that in me, you know, having conversations with God, you know,
recognizing there's a spiritual realm out there that I can't access.
And I think, yeah, that's a whole nother longer conversation.
But that's what I would say, is the gist of
(32:22):
it for me.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, that's been interesting for me because I grew up
in church. My mom's a pastor, my dad's a Buddhist,
my family is Jewish, and so I grew up you
are in the inner circle of like, here is what
this actually means, this is what energy means, this is
(32:46):
what God means, and here all these things. And for
many years it was just the particular way I lived
my life. Right, I have to have a relationship God. This,
I got to be devoted. I gotta serve, I got
to do. And as I started to challenge that a bit,
I started to say, Okay, so if I look at
(33:09):
God as an external thing, as something that I have
to have a relationship with and something that takes me
to a place of joy when I'm devoted, then isn't
that the same thing that money does. When I go
after money, it just gives me a pleasure. For as
long as I'm devoted to the money, or woman, or
(33:32):
my wife or just sex, how do I separate him
from anything else that external that gives me mentally and
emotionally the same thing. I've been obsessed with the Navy
Seals since I was a kid. My family's in like
a military family. I've always loved the Navy seals, And historically,
(33:52):
I remember this line since I was like eight years old.
All the heavens, all the hells, all the angels, all
the demons are within you. And I never truly understood
that until I started to do my work, my internal work,
and I started to realize the best reflection of God
(34:15):
is me, this that I can move, and the greatest
work of devotion is understanding this computer up here, because
I tell his stories all day long, and your mind
(34:35):
doesn't actually understand the difference between reality and not. When
you're in therapy, they make you do something where it
is like close your eyes, imade yourself driving through the
pch and the breeze. It's and there's an orange and
you pull over and you see this beautiful orange and
you grab it and they say open it and bite it,
(35:00):
and your mouth creates saliva. It's not happening.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
You're in a matrix and.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
It creates saliva. And what I started to understand is,
for me, the best version of a relationship with God
was to understand the relationship with myself. Because if I
come into this water and I hit it and it
(35:28):
creates movement, that's power.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
M hm.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Your reflection, your reflection of you're an image bearer, you
bear the image of God.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
And it also taught me that the one and most
important thing is here, not money, not going to church. Now,
is here. When I'm praying, I'm speaking to my brain.
I'm speaking to my mind. I'm speaking to some say,
(36:01):
given devotion, given frtuality to bring the presence of God
in me. And it changed the dynamic of where I
put the importance of my attention to my own life.
Because you devote, especially in our business, twelve hours to
(36:25):
this work, right, sometimes twenty four hours. Then you give
another four or five hours to your family.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
What about you? Well? I always so my new, not
my new.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
My philosophy for years has been this when people say,
how do you prioritize your life?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
How do you balance it? Which neither one of us
believe in the time balance.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
And I would always tell people, I say, all right,
here's how balance it. I'm a man with a wife
and kids and global influence. Right, what do I do?
How do I prioritize? And I say, I start with
myself first? And that always makes people shocked, especially like Christians.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
They're like, whoa, whoa, why you first?
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I say, because if I'm not mentally, spiritually and emotionally healthy,
I'm no good for anybody else. I cannot help anyone else.
So if I'm not connected to God, if I'm not
emotionally and mentally sound, I'm a vegetable who can lead
people nowhere. I don't do a good job leading my
(37:31):
kids anywhere healthy, I don't do a good job being
a good husband. I don't do a good job for
the world that would pay attention to me. So I'm
a big fan of saying prioritize, not in a selfish way,
but in the most selfless way possible, by like saying,
let me make sure I'm healthy so that I can
It's kind of like the gas mask that comes down
(37:52):
from the airplane. It's like, put it over yourself first
so that you can help other people, not.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Just so you can put it on and be like,
all right, I hope you all survive. Yeah, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
So, yeah, your career has kind of mirrord the growth
of I was saving Christianity as it's developed in growth,
because I remember when I started, and I like, it's crazy,
because you know, those things that impact your life. I
remember having a call with the truth at the time,
and I was started as a producer and I was like, man,
(38:24):
I want to produce for you, like I have created
this company a cross over entertainment and I want to
do this, and him saying, oh, man, you work with
secular artist, I can't work with you. Like it was
so impactful to my life that I remember where I
was sitting in my room when they happened, you know
what I mean, Like it was like what does that
(38:45):
actually mean? And I remember in those times and that
era of church where like you have to come in
and like throw away your secular CDs in the garbage
two where you've seen the evolution of you know where
it's at today and how is developed and growth and
how you know church is like vood church And why
(39:06):
do you think that change happened? And how has that changed?
How you've grown your career, the decisions you make in
building your music.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
I think some of it is generational.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I think you you can't dismiss the role that culture
plays in society, and culture is always going to influence
the church. The whole idea of a megachurch was birth
out of the idea of suburbs being created, so it
was a reflection of suburbs. And I think generationally, when
you look at like, you know, gen xers, they are
(39:46):
more along the lines of like, hey impact the culture,
but don't get in the culture.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Like they're more like, hey, let's.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Create a Christian club or a Christian this or a
Christian that.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
And that's a big gen X mindset.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
It still exists, but people don't know that they're influenced
by like that gen X mindset where they grew up
in an era where you created a hip hop club
or you create you know, that was just the era.
The time everything was like culturally segregated, and so.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
They were following that model. I think when you get
to the millennials, millennials or less influenced by like these sects.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Millennials are more like, well, I just want to weave
in it and be a light and spread hope in
the mess. So whereas gen X is like, let's do
a Christian club, Millennials a little more like, let's be
Christians in the club. You know what I'm saying, Like,
what does that look like? Can that be done? And
(41:13):
then Millennials, I would say, got disillusioned and stuff just
got muddy and They're like, I don't know, none of
this is making sense, and so they either retreat and
go back to the gen X ways and say we're
just gonna do everything like this, or they say I
don't know and they throw it all off, which leaves
gen Z saying, we don't like any of the stuff
(41:34):
y'all doing. We just want to know about God, you
know what I mean. I don't get all this stuff.
And so I work with gen Z's, I live with
gen Z's, you know, and one Gen Alpha, and they're
just less restricted by these formats.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
They just want to flow.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
So I think what's happened is specifically like church and
society and church and culture, is that some have said
we're not gonna follow these traditional paths.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
We're trying to impact culture.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
In order to impact culture, we've got to think about
what culture cares about, what they are influenced by, So
let's try to meet them in these unique ways.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
And I my son, like.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
For me, it would have been weird or corny or
like overly religious to wear a hat that says christ
like on it.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
It had been like, ooh, I can't wear that. That's
too much man. For him, He's like, why not. It's cool.
I don't care.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
I'm virgin, no big deal, and he's not shunned for it.
It's actually like, oh cool, bro, you know because the
gen z is like, oh that's whatever, bro, Like you
do you? I do, mean whatever whatever. I respect that,
and I think, man, the churches who will succeed are
going to be those who are both unashamed of who
they are, their identity, but also aware of where society
(43:03):
and culture is and how to connect with them.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
So do you feel in a box? You know, like
coming up? Lucraig Christian artists, lak Craze just an artist.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, I've always been like I always wanted to push
back on the systems. I just didn't know because I
didn't know they existed. I didn' grow up in church,
so I don't know. I don't know all the rules.
I just knew I loved the Lord and I wanted
to make music, and I was like, how do I
do that?
Speaker 3 (43:35):
I didn't know there was rules. So when they told me.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
When I first started doing music, I went to the
mainstream labels and they were like, oh no, this is
this is too churchy. You should go try the gospel labels.
So I'm like, all right, cool, I go to the
gospel labels, They're like.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Churchy enough, you need to go to the hip hop,
the mainstream label.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
So I was like, oh, I guess I just got
to do this myself because it didn't make I didn't know,
you know, the first album that I bought that I
didn't grow up on gospel music.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
I don't know gospel music to this day. I don't
even grow up on it.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
The first Christian album I got was Lauren Hill to
Miseducation Lauryn Hill, Like.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
To me, that was a Christian album. I didn't know.
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
So talking about music and building your own label, what
do you consider your style of leadership to be.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
It's evolved over the years, so, you know, being an
artist and a label owner, I think we looked to
people historically like jay Z, you know, who was able
to build this incredible empire and like highlight these artists
(44:47):
at the same time. And so that was a healthy
model that I was trying to figure out how to
follow because a lot of artists start labels and then
they're just always bigger than.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Their other artists, right, it never works.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
But for whatever reason, Jay, it was working for him,
and it's continued to work for him. So I was
trying to understand the model and two things that I learned.
One is delegation, right is learn how to be a delegator.
Control is an illusion. You're not always going to have control.
You don't have to have your hand on everything. Learn
how to develop and find people you can trust to
(45:25):
do the things that you need to get done. And
I don't feel the pressure to have to be the
expert on everything anymore.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
I'm like, that's what.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
I hired you for, you know what I mean, So
that you got to lose some ego in order to
do that, but then you allow people to thrive. So
I just try to create entrepreneurs who want to thrive
in their own capacity. If you're not an entrepreneur, if
you need to be micromanaged, you're not going to thrive
under me, because you're going.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
To keep saying so what do I SO? What do I?
SO do I? And I'm going to say this isn't
this isn't gonna work.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
You know I feel that. Yeah, let's talk about fatherhood.
What do you teach your kids about dealing with hard times?
Speaker 1 (46:07):
I mean, you know, first and foremost obviously, everything happens,
you know, in God's time, Like you know, be patient
because God isn't late, So you gotta trust that there's
a process beyond your understanding. Practically, I try to create
(46:35):
difficulty and challenges for them because their life is really
like so awesome, So I have to like manufacture hardships.
Sometimes life is going to give them some harshness, but
the kind that I want them to have, so they
have grit in this world and they you know, I
(46:56):
have to manufacture some of those particular things, and so
you know, I create storms for them. Sometimes. My son was,
you know, thinking that life was sweet and he just
gets money for this, and oh I want that, I
want this, And I was like, oh, by the way,
you need you're fourteen, you can work, so you got
(47:17):
to get a job. He's like what, I'm like, yeah,
you got to get a job. So he had to
get a job. But then it taught him the value
of hard work, telling them the value of earning something on
his own. And then you know it's kind of like, hey,
you got to figure out how you're going to get there. Well,
if you're late, you know, you got to deal with
those consequences and just creating scenarios for them so that
(47:41):
they're removed from the idea of everything is just going
to work out for them, you know, just trying to
create scenarios.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
And then last thing I would just say is.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
I always tell him this, but I think only my
daughter gets it, probably because women generally connect face to face,
men connect side by side. They need an activity to
do in order to connect. But I tell them, you're
gonna need friends to walk through hard times with.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
You're just gonna meet. And my son's like, oh.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Tell my friends all my hard times. And I'm like, okay,
you live, keep living, Like my mom would say. My daughter,
on the other hand, she would her and her friends
with just.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Talk and they just work stuff out. And and I'm
just like she gets it. The boys, I don't know,
We'll see.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
It's interesting, you know, because I I have a two
and a half year old, so I don't get to
have the conversations about you read times. Yeah, but one
of the things that I saw as she was growing
up was really when she got in the place of distress.
You know, of course, as parents, the first thing you
(48:47):
want to just like go try to get the baby right.
And and I had learned this lesson that I read
in the book, which was we've been taught to tell
our friends or even tell ourselves when we're going through something,
don't worry the lights. The light at the end of
the tunnel's coming, like, don't worry. You're gonna be okay,
and you're gonna like time will pass. And in the
(49:11):
book they say the realization is learn to love the fire.
M m m hm, because in the fire is the
actual lesson.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
And I was like, I wonder if this works. Like
a two year olds and I one day, she was
like in her ballpen and she started to get frustrated
and my wife went running trying to get her, and
I said, leave her, Let's see what happens. And she
(49:43):
was like and then she calmed herself, who loved herself up?
And I was like, oh, yeah, she learned to dance
in the midst of her uncomfortable situation. And they gave
her at two years old, your mind understood the shift
(50:07):
condor and get a clear direction now, And I was like, wow,
that's such the way that we go through life. We're
so afraid of going through the fire. At least I
know historically I have that we try to learn, not
learn the lesson, and then life comes again and goes, Oh,
(50:27):
you know, learning well in school and it goes again.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
And then talking about frameworks and mental frameworks that we use.
You know, I heard you speaking in another conversation about
you know, therapy and how it's helped you. Is there
a mental framework you've learned through your time doing therapy
and working yourself that you think is the most effective
to dealing with everyday life and dealing with your traumas.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Yeah, there's a new mantra that my therapist guy me.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
You know, I was telling her about my.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Family of origin and we have all these unwritten family rules.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
A lot of people, most people have them.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
They don't realize it, right, Like, you have these unwritten
things in your mind that your family instilled in you.
But they're they're they're made up rules, they're not real,
but you're you don't want to disappoint your family, so
you abide by these rules. And you know, one of
my family rules was don't tell people your business.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
It's just an.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Unwritten family rule. Grandma cousins, everyone, don't tell people your business.
And my therapist is like, hey, you have the right
to choose no, Like you're your own person. You can
say no to this unwritten family rule, especially if.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
It's not like sacred in like in stone something.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
You know. It's like, oh, and so now I give
myself the right to choose no to things that I
have made in my mind as these like written rules
that I'm like, where even get that from?
Speaker 3 (52:01):
Like? Why do I even who taught me this? Men
don't cry? Where did you get that? Where did that
come from? Why do you think that? You know what
I mean? Just little things that don't really have bearing.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
I've learned to like, wait a minute, why do I
think this? And this is true?
Speaker 3 (52:21):
No?
Speaker 1 (52:22):
Move on? I can move on, you know. I wrap
I come from a particular environment. I can smile. I'm
allowed to smile. It's okay to smile. I can be friendly.
I don't have to you know, I don't have to
be what you say, culture, tradition, all these unwritten rules
(52:44):
say I have to be.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
I can choose no. And That's what I've been doing.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
I love that, and it talks to what we've been
talking about this whole conversation. The stories we tell ourselves,
you know, and how your mind perceives those stories to
the truth and you live by them, Yeah, for sure,
and you end up imprisoning yourself in those stories. Yep,
what are you afraid of?
Speaker 3 (53:07):
Being my father? Just being candid. Greatest fear my father.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
He had a job, lost his job, lost his family,
spiraled the out. You know, probably I don't know, dealt
with depression, self medicated and ended up homeless, and you know,
self medicating to fight it. And I think my greatest
(53:43):
fear is to follow in those footsteps. It is to
some kind of way, it haunts me, like, if you
make this move, You're going to be him. And I've
had to fight against that my whole life. I only
realized I thought that within the last five years, you know,
so I didn't realize that was a subconscious thing, like
(54:07):
why am I grinding so hard? Why am I pushing
so hard? And now in hindsight, I'm like, oh, I'm
afraid to be my dad.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
That's what I'm afraid of.
Speaker 1 (54:16):
Because when you see the worst possible outcome, you know
what could happen, and you make up in your.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Mind that that's going to be your reality.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
I have another one of my friends who he got
on a plane and he took off, he went to
do a show. He came while he was out doing
a show, he got a phone call that his one
year old had passed away. And now he's trained his
mind to believe that every time he gets on a plane,
another one of his kids will lose their life, you know.
(54:46):
So that trauma has informed him of something that's not
true and created a fear. And so the fear that
I live with is that, oh, if I don't get
this right, I'm going to be my dad.
Speaker 3 (54:59):
So it's not true, but it's still a fear, or
maybe it is true.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
One of the tools that I've I've learned to start
healing these traumas is to go into the inner child
at that first moment. Let's use this situation as an
example that La Cree felt.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
I don't want to beg mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
Tears, Like that moment for me? Is that moment for me,
It's okay to cry, Look cray, It's okay to cry. Man,
do cry, man, do cry. But that shifted the way
because I realized that even though I had gone to
(55:49):
therapy and I was dealing with all these things, like
the feeling was still there. The story was still there,
and it wasn't until like I could phased that little
boy that like, because it was like you didn't really
know where the trauma was actually coming until that moment
that first time. Like, remember, I remember the truth being
(56:11):
in my room saying that to me, and I remember
how I shattered my dreams at that time, at that moment.
You know, as a kid, when do you feel the
closest to your truest self?
Speaker 1 (56:25):
If I'm being honest, I'm still processing who who I am?
You know what I'm saying. So I haven't been given
a model for me, and so I'm like a prototype.
(56:49):
I don't see another version of me out there. If
that makes sense that I can say, Okay, there's so
I'm trying to understand. I like categories and even I
defy categories. So for me, it's like, way, who who
am I?
Speaker 3 (57:08):
I'm getting closer.
Speaker 1 (57:10):
So when I can embrace that I don't fit, I
feel like I'm closer to being honest with myself about
who I am. I think I've innately always wanted to
fit so bad somewhere where do I fit? And the
closer I understand I don't fit, I wanted to fit
(57:32):
in with my uncles who were you know, in the streets.
I wanted to fit in with hip hop culture. I
wanted to fit in with the Christian culture, the church culture.
And it's like I don't fit in any of those,
but I fit in all of those, and so it's
like who what am I? And I think as I
(57:53):
begin to admit, like, hey, you don't really nicely fit,
I get closer to like understand and this is who
I am.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (58:03):
But I you know, and at the core, I don't
think that's my identity. My identity transcends all of that.
Speaker 3 (58:10):
But that's that's the process I'm in right now, trying
to be okay with a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (58:18):
If God can grant you one desire, what would it be?
Speaker 3 (58:24):
Clear vision, just clear, just see things clear, see the
word clear, see him clear, see culture clear. I just
I can't even imagine. Like I feel like like Jesus
walked the earth and he just was like clear as much,
just clear, just like just like oh, they're stoning this prostitute,
(58:45):
they're killing her, and he just walks over and just
let me write something in the sand. And everyone's like.
Speaker 1 (58:54):
It's like, oh, he saw it he just yeah, just clear.
I mean they probably killed me for seeing clear, but
I'd like.
Speaker 3 (59:00):
To see it.
Speaker 2 (59:02):
So at the end of every episode we do an exercise.
My belief is words have power, and we talk to ourselves,
and we're with ourselves more than we are with anybody else.
Your mind can perceive the difference between reality or not.
(59:25):
It only believes what you say it. So what is
one word or one phrase that you can tell yourself
that will change how you perceive today and the rest
of this week. M what does your heart and your
mind need to.
Speaker 3 (59:40):
Hear You're accepted. You're accepted. You know.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
I think that's something I screamed from the mountaintops all
the time. Is because I'm not just telling other people that,
I'm telling myself that. So I always need to be
reminded You're accepted, You're You're good.
Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Well, great, thank you for being on the show. So
excited for our conversation and first of many.
Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
This man, Thank you, Oprah Junior.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Over here You Versus You as a production of Neon
sixteen and Entertained Studios in partnership with the Iheartmichael Tuda
podcast Network. For more podcasts, listen to the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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