Redefining Success: Presence, Peace & Purpose with Ishmiel Lounsbury

Success isn’t “more.” It’s presence, peace, and the stories we choose to believe. In this conversation with Ishmael, we unpack the real metrics of success: feeling love at home, self-kindness over self-punishment, willingness to sit with discomfort, and building a life that moves at the pace of peace.

What you’ll learn:

- Why “more” ≠ happier (and how to measure success differently) The ocean vs. wave mindset for deep safety
- How to rewrite the stories that keep you stuck
Grief as a doorway to love (and how to feel without storing) Practical starting points: willingness & self-love.

- Boundaries, slowing down, and building purpose that lasts

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You coach people who have reached success. What do you
think is the common.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Struggle people I know who have enough to live a lifetimes,
but it's deeply satisfied. It's because they no matter how
big the house is in back to seats, that what
happens when you can't run away. We did it, We
close the deal. That's a temporary feeling bit. There's a
deeper sense of feeling that can't be shaken by a circumstance.
The only choice is we really get to make it

(00:26):
like this? How we The reason I don't want to
take feedback of this because.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
Wow, can you repeat that? Because I just resonated?

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Welcome to another episode of You Versus You. Today's episode,
I have a really special guest, someone who's been a
guiding light through this journey. I'm not only creating this podcast,
but most importantly looking at the internal part of my life.
And there's new discovery of what it means to be
alivee to have purpose, to have joy, to have happiness.

(00:56):
You have heard me say his name, You have heard
me talk about him through almost every single episode that
we've filmed. Ishmael, Welcome to Diverses. You what is the
metrics of true success? Yeah, we have told each other
so many stories and I meant each other as a
human race of what those metrics are.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
So what are they for you?

Speaker 1 (01:17):
You know? I used to think that success meant more
than I have, whether that was more than I have
in my career, more than I have in a place
of love, more than I have in the bank account,
just the acquisition of more. And in this journey together,

(01:41):
I've started to discover how far from the truth that
really is and the acceptance that you're actually you always
tell me, have you ever thought that you're just okay?
Everything is okay? And that really has resonated with me,
and the idea that I am actually pre filly okay

(02:05):
and that the add ons, whether hard or blessings, are
just that there add ons to that journey of discovery
and learning. But I'm okay even if nothing changed.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, what is it to be? Like? What does success
really mean? The first thing that comes up for me
is like that I walk into my front door and
there's nothing in the way of me feeling love for
the people in the house with me that I can
stop long enough to really be present with the ones
I love and that if there's something in the way

(02:39):
that we have tools so that we can kind of
work through it to get to a place of peace
and connection and kindness and investigation. That's a big part
of success. There is the part of like, I'd rather
not be spending all my time worrying about money. So
there is an element to like, I'm want a home,

(03:00):
I want, you know, enough to make my life work.
But I don't see a direct relationship between the more
I have the more successful I am. Fact, there's this
thing that I feel like happens in our culture where
we think success is getting bigger, Like the bigger we get,
the more successful we are, which is I think what
you were talking about, like, you know, there's more. If

(03:20):
I get more, i'll be and that can be called douka,
which is in the future, when I have then I
will have success. And I think real success is when
I think what you're trying to say is when when
I'm content with what I have right now. That's a
better metrics metric to like what real success is That like,

(03:41):
it's both because there's times when I want it to
be different than it is, and I'm also accepting what
it is, and so That's one for me. Another one
is I think the highest success that I've reached in
my life so far is looking at my own internal
landscape and not being so hard on myself for what
I see. Like you know, my sons, I would never

(04:02):
tell them like, hey, you don't deserve love because of
your behavior or because of a mistake that you made.
And yet there's been all through my life this part
of me that feels like I'm not worthy to be
here or even take up the space that my body
and my breath takes in because of the mistakes, because
of what I've done wrong. And I just am learning that,

(04:26):
Like the more willing I am to look at myself
and not judge myself for what I see, the more
I feel like I have a sense of belonging in connection,
like direct relationship between my sense of belonging in connection
and how I feel about myself. Everyone in the world
that I even respect and tell me I'm doing well,

(04:46):
but if I am not loving myself and I can't
believe it. And even when people are telling me I'm
not doing well, but I feel really good about myself,
it's really easy for me to go well. Thanks for
the feedback. That's good information, right, And I think that's
what real success is in a culture where you know,
it's so kind of put into our minds that success

(05:10):
is what you do, right, that nobody at the end
of their life and their deathbed goes. I wish I
would have done more, everyone says, I wish I would
have been with the people I love more. I wish
I would have been more present and the connection to
my people, right, And I think that as we start
to do less and be more, I think that's a

(05:32):
better metric to what real success is.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Why do you think we struggle somewhere is to be present?

Speaker 2 (05:39):
I think for me it's because I'm If I stop
long enough to look at myself, I generally have felt
bad about what I see. So I'd rather not be present.
I'd rather do something to try to make this feeling
go away. I it's important for me to be able
to sit with uncomfortable feelings, to not try to fix
it through my doing. And I'm not saying that I

(05:59):
get that right all the time, but more willingness to
sit with my uncomfortability and then to reflect it to
the people I love. You know that I'm uncomfortable right now.
And be okay with that uncomfortability and investigate it right
like I want to look at it. I don't just
want to be uncomfortable. But sometimes I just wake up
in the morning and it's not comfortable, and I generally
try to jump on my phone or do something to

(06:21):
get rid of the feeling. And there's something about being
able to sit with that, you know. Am I willing
to just sit with my uncomfortability instead of trying to
do it away? And I've spent a lot of my life,
so what happens when you can't run away and you
have That's what happens at your deathbed if you don't
study it beforehand. It's uncomfortable, you know, as you start

(06:41):
to die, which you know, we know none of us,
like we were saying, none of us knows when the
ind comes, and I want to live as though, like
I'm not assuming there is another tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
There's so many things that I've learned through this process,
uh with you, that idea of the understand the I
should say, of stillness as the purpose and then releasing
the needing to control what happens, and the idea that
we actually control and any of it. But being able

(07:15):
to sit still and listen and then kind of once
you hear courageous enough to make that move into action.
You coach people have influencer success. What do you think
is the common struggle between the group of successful accomplish
humans that you coach.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think everybody that I meet who
has reached what we call success in our society, but
it isn't deeply satisfied. It's because they believed that success
and safety deep safety was like what I had and
what I did, And that's what we're taught. You know,
there's no roadmap telling us what it is to feel

(07:55):
deeply good, right, and so like I need to get
a good job, I need to make money. I mean
all three of my sons have had that version of
like successes. Like I've got a big house, I've got
a really nice car. I've got and yet whenever I'm
with anybody who you know is highly affluent and you know,
has a lot of money, they don't seem happier in

(08:19):
any way whatsoever. Then, like, no matter how big the
house is, in fact it's the opposite. And then the
struggle is being able to let go of the momentum
it took to create that wealth so that they can
slow down enough to really look at themselves and feel
and like, you know, have a really good look. What's
missing is a deep spiritual or deep it doesn't enough

(08:40):
to be spiritual, but just a deep sense of purpose
in the world and for me, and like, I want
to feel good and I want to serve, I want
to help, I want to give back, and like so
much of what feels good to me is to help
others to find the piece that you know, I'm sitting
in more and more as I grow older. It's like

(09:01):
a ripening, you know, like you can either just keep going.
Like there's number of people I know who have enough
to live ten lifetimes, and yet the only thing they
know to do they try to make themselves feel better
is just to acquire more. And that's you know, I
don't I mean, I can understand why on one level,
but I don't see them getting any happier from that.

(09:24):
And so it's like, what's that Bible versus Like it's
harder for a rich man to get to heaven then
to put a camel something like that through the eye
of a needle. And it's really true, like if you
have to carry all the stuff and the energy that
it takes to carry that, you know, perceived wealth. You
don't have time to stop and look at what you

(09:44):
really even want. It's everything's about doing, and there's you know,
I think when people of means get to the place
and there's a few of them that I've seen that
have really been able to not let go of all
their wealth, but just not have that energy run everything
that they're doing. And it always requires like some really

(10:05):
clear boundaries, like there's a time I'm working and there's
a time when I'm in presence with the ones I love, right,
and then if you do that enough, then even while
you're working, you can be in the presence of love.
And I've found that I have to slow down, take
a lot of space to be at a pace of
relationship with myself so I don't forget and just get

(10:27):
caught in whatever the ra at race or the doing.
That's like all these patterns and compulsions and triggers and
responses that I'm not even paying attention to because I'm
moving too fast. So your question was, what is it
that you know, what's the common denominator? And I think
it's the illusion of the story that my safety depends

(10:47):
on what I do. And then I just is that true?
Is our safety dependent because if it is, we're in
trouble because no amount of doing can make us feel safe.
You could have all the money in the world, the
best health insurance, and it can't make you actually any safer.
It can give you home and house, but there's a limit.
And then after that point, no more safety comes from that,

(11:09):
Like that's just providing for natural needs. And the deep
safety comes from a different place. And like the question is,
like what is that deeper place? Like what creates real safety?

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Right?

Speaker 2 (11:22):
You know, I respect everyone who's made it successfully in
the world, but not that many people who've made success
feel deeply good about themselves and about what's happening some
But I'm talking deeply good, you know, not just like
we did it, we close the deal. We you know,
that's a temporary feeling good. There's a deeper sense of

(11:42):
feeling good that can't be shaken by circumstance.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
I think ultimately that's what let me hear, right, that
journey of man, like I did all these things that
I thought we were going to make do something, you know,
and I thought we're going to change the trauma, and
I thought it was going to high and very quickly
in that external idea of there's an outside thing that

(12:07):
will actually make me internally better, I found that there's
a huge gap in there where there's just like the
running story that it's just never enough. You're going to
see somebody with a bigger car, You're gonna see somebody
with a bigger house. You canna see somebody with more success,
more awards, more awards. You're gonna look left and you

(12:28):
look at and it's always going to be like this
rat race. And I've reached the point that ultimately I
got tired. You know, there's this sense there's a place where,
even with all energy and spirituality, your body just says enough,
it's enough enough of like this idea, because while your

(12:50):
mind could think of thousand and one things, your body
at some point it loves to show you, you know,
and it's a reflection of the internal which I never
actually understood that until I started to sit with you
the concept of stories, and I would love for you
to go into that because it transformed the way that

(13:11):
I valued the power of my words and the way
that I thought about reality. Because for me, it made
me understand, my mind will believe whatever I'm telling it,
and so my words have so much power and so
much weight. And two that we really have all these
stories that we love to tell ourselves. And like we said,

(13:31):
we think, I think like you, I know very a
lot of successful people who have passed away from major diseases,
and with all the money in the world, they couldn't
their body couldn't solve it, or.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
The medical system couldn't solve it.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, Unfortunately, I know a lot of people in my
business that have reached success at the highest level and
then you know their own stories the taking them to
a place where they you know, commit suicide and and
can't deal with that mental struggle. Can you speak more

(14:08):
on the concept of stories and how that.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
I feel like we don't get to choose like what
happens in the world, Like you know, stuff happens comes in.
We don't have a choice on I mean, we have
some influence, you know, on where we put ourselves in situations,
but really we don't get to choose what happens. We
do have choice on how we perceive and frame what happened, right,

(14:35):
the stories that we tell about what happened, we have
choice in that, you know, like, and I think it's
really important to be aware of that, that, you know,
because I think when we don't realize that, we're actually,
you know, what's the great thing, who's choosing? You know,
you're in California, Everyone's going to be like, who chooses?
Who's creating a reality? And I am until your wife

(14:58):
gets triggered and you're blaming her, and then all of
a sudden, you feel like she's creating your reality, right,
And so the choices we have are how we frame
what does happen, not so much what happens, and that
does influence what happens right the way we frame it,
and so being really really aware of how I keep

(15:19):
perpetuating old stories about myself or my partner or my
work or whatever it is, or what safety is or
what success is really influences. But the only choice we
really get to make in life is how we respond
to what's happening. I think we actually, you know, we
have some say in that, but it takes slowing down
enough to start to look at ourselves like I was

(15:41):
saying that early and not being so hard on ourselves.
Are so stuck in a story of rightness like I
often think of that for myself, Like a pretty advanced
level of loving is not to be right, but not
need to use my rightness to overpower, Like in a
conversation with somebody else that I love, to not use

(16:02):
my rightness to overpower the person, Like, am I willing
to listen to my partner even when I know I'm right?
Am I able to validate my partner's experience? Do you
know what I mean? Like to be able to say
I understand how you feel, even if I have a
story that's different than that and I feel like it's right.
I mean, so much of the conflict I've gotten into

(16:22):
with every relationship I'm in is is when I don't
feel like the other person understands my perspective and I
want them to understand my perspective, I have to be
willing to stop my rightness or my belief in the
perspective and try to put myselves in their place. That
would be an example of like how I can change
the story. I love the idea of framing it as

(16:44):
story right, because that's what it is. We are creating
the version of what we're seeing through our eyes. And
you know, why is it so important? That my rightness,
that what I see be validated as real right And
what if I'm actually open to getting feedback from you?
And I said this earlier, but the reason I don't

(17:05):
want to take feedback is because I intend to punish
myself for anybody who can like, I'm not actually afraid
of somebody's feedback. I'm afraid of how I'm going to
feel about myself in the face of their feedback, right,
which is.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
A totally different thing because that just resonated.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah, I'm not actually afraid, you could say it instead
of feedback, because I'm not actually afraid of what other
people think, even though it looks that way. I'm actually
afraid of how I'm going to feel about myself if
somebody thinks poorly of me. And that's a choice I have.
I get to decide, Okay, is that feedback that I
could learn from or do I need to defend myself.

(17:43):
And the defense is always that I intend to punish
myself if anybody doesn't like me. Right, And then one
of the major things that you can do is like,
I don't care what anybody thinks. And I understand when
people say that on one level, because it's a trying
to make a boundary, like I'm not going to let
other people's opinion constitute or create direct everything that I

(18:06):
do in my life. But I actually do care about
what other people think I do. I just want to
be able to like, I don't want to care and
take opinions. I just want to be able to make
boundaries that they're like, Hey, I want the feedback and
when I'm loving myself, when I'm clear and I'm loving myself,
I want feedback. When I'm not, nobody can give me feedback.

(18:27):
Because I take offense, And then I ask myself, why
am I taking offense right now? Is do I have
to take offense? Is it optional? And I take offense
because I intend to punish myself for you know, what
I feel like is a mistake or for being I
don't want to look at myself and think I'm lacking.

(18:48):
And what if it's okay, what if it's all here
just to help me to learn it's not a punishment, right,
I don't know if that actually kind of went off
sideways and oh, that's we all.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Feel in one way or the other, two different circumstances
of a situation. And one of the things that as
I've interviewed some of our guests, the thing that keeps
coming up is the weight of the word of purpose,
Like there's this natural fear or a story that we've

(19:23):
been living of my life doesn't have meaning if it
doesn't have purpose, and there's this fear that I won't
become this idea of myself that I have for myself,
and so I'm afraid of failure or I'm afraid I
have the necessity to be more and show more because

(19:44):
my identity is so tied to this idea of purpose
and of you know, self worth, that that then becomes
why I don't want to listen to somebody, or why
I don't or why I feel attacked, And really no
one's attacking me, someone's just sharing. What would you say

(20:05):
is the healthiest way to address this story? H m hm,
That I need to define my purpose. I need to

(20:25):
be super clear on my purpose, and I need to
define what my life is going to be. And I
need to beat failure because I'm not like I'm just
not worthy of love, I'm not worthy of positive words,
I'm not worthy of even living. For many people, how
do you view purpose and and how how do you
view the story about purpose and how can we reframe

(20:48):
that right? Because I feel like that's especially in our youth.
It's just a constant struggle and and and and.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Fear that youth lives with. Yeah, what is That's a
good question, do you like? I'm just curious for you,
what do you feel like is the deepest purpose that
you have right now? What's the thing that you feel
like calls you towards the deepest desire of you know,
what brings you deep sense of purpose and meaning right now?

(21:17):
Just in the state of you're just right in this moment,
like what feels like the thing that would give you
the deepest sense of I've reached my purpose?

Speaker 1 (21:26):
You know, growing up in church, I was thought that
the purpose was always others and I even when you
walk into Neon, into the company, is like, the purpose
is to change lives as I've started to do this
work at this precise moment, and not that not to
say that it can change or but at this moment,
it feels like the biggest purpose I have is to

(21:47):
look inside because I've started to realize that everything that
has been presented to me in a story has always
felt like there's an external need of something in order
to feel self worth, and at least the process I'm
in right now, I'm starting to really feel like until
I get myself to delete these stories, that external is

(22:10):
the where happiness is, or where success.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
Is or what I do create.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
What I do create success instead of like no, no,
or creates self value. If I help people and I
feel good about helping people and they think I'm great,
then I'm living my purpose. I believe now that, and
I'll answer this a little bit more from I believe
now that in looking inside and finding the content and

(22:36):
the acceptance of what I am today, not tomorrow or
the next day, but what I am today. Then from
that place of wholeness, whatever happens externally that affects people
could be a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
And when you say I look inside, what does that
look like for you? When you're looking inside, what are
you looking for?

Speaker 1 (23:00):
I'm looking at the stories that have created prisons in
my heart and in my mind, and I'm looking for
the key to unlock.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
You know, because when I work together, I've learned the
power of those stories and how they have created prisons
in my life that created a version of myself the
needed things from external that created my self value in
my career and how one of my clients will look

(23:31):
at me or not look at me, and my need
to control that in order to feel like the piece,
you know. And it's like in the acceptance, which I
think for anybody listens to, none of this that I'm
talking about is easy to get and no one has arrived,
you know.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
It's like, now I've looked inside and it's all taken
care of. I did that, check the box and go
on that. That's not how it works. Yeah, I think
it's I think it's more I want to look inside
and I want to cultivate an energy. You know, what's
thisger chief I think his name was. It said, if
you have taken a deep look at yourself and you

(24:10):
weren't horrified by what you saw, you probably didn't look
very deep. And I think that as a first layer
is we don't want to look inside because we're not
going to like what we see there, right, And then
there's a cultivation of like, I want to look at
myself and not judge myself for what I see so
that I can really look. I want to be kind

(24:31):
to myself as I look. And it doesn't mean I
want to be complacent or bypass. I want to do
the work to really look and feel the impact of
what I'm seeing. But like I think that when we go,
I want to look inside. I want to slow down
enough to look and see what all these compelling factors are.
They're a driving me to do because it's not working.

(24:52):
They're like always doing to try to make myself feel
safe has not worked, And so I'm being run by
all these impulses and all these triggers and all these
you know reactions. You know, like I know with my
wife Patra, like I look and there. I call it
the dynamic, right, it's not. It's not like Patrick and

(25:13):
I have hundreds of different arguments. We have one kind
of dynamic that just keeps coming up over and over again,
and we argue about it in a bunch of different ways.
Right and and right, it's true.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
It's true.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
I mean for me, it's true. And so I'm like, okay,
is it worth just taking enough time to sit with
myself and go what? Why? Why am I getting so triggered?
Why am I like moving so fast that I can't
even feel what's happening? You know, because you know it
comes when I'm moving that fast, and I end up
judging a lot of I judge, you know, and then

(25:48):
I get you know, and then I defend and I blame,
and and then people feel that and then there's like
an unsafe environment. So as I like take a good
look within and start going, I really want to know
why I'm being so compelled by my desires and my fears, right,
I want to know what is this? And the first
wave is always like when I'm contracted is to blame. Well,

(26:10):
I'm feeling that because they did, and then I list
all the reasons why. And then yet, if I really
look deeply, I go, wait a second, like, if it's
really true that I get to choose how I feel.
I don't have to be taking offense to somebody's unskillful behavior.
I can just go out a person's having a hard
time and they're they're you know, they're projecting a lot

(26:31):
out and do the and it's not personal. It's not
really about me. Even when somebody is directly putting it
towards me and is blaming me or judging me, it's
really not personal. They're just having a hard time and
they think it's about me. I don't have to think
it's about me. You know, if I know it's not,
I can still feel good in the face of that, right,

(26:51):
I can still go it's good information to know I
think I need to make a boundary with this person,
or I think, you know, I want to respond. Well,
But if I don't take that time to look within
a little bit, if I don't have enough time to
just sit with myself and tune into what I'm really feeling,
I'm going to respond with another reaction. So then there's
just all these reactive the I mean, I think so
much of what's being built in the world right now

(27:13):
is just coming from unconscious reactions impulses that were doing
because we haven't taken the time to look and sit
with maybe uncomfortable feelings or just you know, feelings that
are showing up that aren't even from anything that's happened
in my life. My dad's dad's dad had some unconscious
behavior that he passed on to his father or his son,

(27:34):
and that it got passed on. And I'm getting all
this sort of like information that came at me when
I was a child that was you know that I'm
still dealing with that was Never mind that didn't even
happen in this world. And if I want to like
not keep passing that on and it's not like I
see it once and then I stop. I have to
all the time be paying attention. What am I like?

(27:56):
How am I responding right now? And one thing I'll
say for sure is I've needed to slow down, not
stop it, just slow down enough so that whatever I'm
going to do is coming from a deeper sense of
peace in my being. And that feels really unsafe at first,
because we're so used to doing. We're so used to
safety is what we do, and it's and honestly it

(28:19):
can be.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Really, do you think the question of purpose comes down
more to understanding the stories we tell ourselves or do
you feel that it's or do you feel like something
that needs to be utterly clearly?

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Purpose change is all the time, right, But like if
purpose is some act of doing, like say I want
to start a company and I want to you know,
and you create a purpose around what that is, and
then that just becomes the narrative and the purpose and
you're not looking anywhere else other than to achieve that purpose.
I mean, it is filling a purpose, But is that

(28:58):
really what the purpose of your life is, you know,
and most people who start companies, I mean, I've seen
a number of companies start with both we want to
have wealth and abundance and we want to do good
into the world. But as soon as you get into
the competitive market the whole do good. You know, if
one company can make more money by not doing good
and you want to stay you know, competitive with that one,

(29:19):
then you've sort of got to do the same thing.
And I've just seen how many companies lose the deeper
purpose to the purpose of what I don't think is
true safety. But I understand why we do it that,
you know, to compete and to stay in the current markets,
you know, and or whatever it is, the current field
of whatever you're doing. And so a deeper purpose to
me has to feel good within, like, it has to

(29:41):
feel deeply good, and I have to slow down enough
to like to tune into it. Does this really feel good?
And then the way I really the metric for me
that tells me I'm doing it is when I step
into my house. How does it feel? Is there anything
in the way between? Have I been so busy with
my partnership, I mean, with my work that my partner

(30:02):
is resentful because I'm giving her the message or my
children the message that what I'm doing, even though I'm
doing it to try to create safety and home, but
what I'm doing is more important than being with them.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
I think what I get from that conversation, it's really
that this idea of needing to define our deepest sense
of why we are here comes from a needing to
feel secure. Yeah, there like needing to feel like the
safe likes the idea of security, like the security and

(30:35):
the safety is what makes us feel whole. And then
you know, because of the stories we've been told, because
the society that we live in, and how you know,
our parents have passed on stories. I can speak of
myself it feels like, you know my parents. My mother
is a pastor. So I grew up with this idea

(30:57):
that the purpose is full serving at all time. But
then you know, you go serve people and they're humans
like you. They're hurting, they're going through the process, and
chances are theyre going to disappoint you, right, Chances are
they might not say thank you, they might not give
you a plate of food back, or they're not you know,
And I can say that from My pov as a

(31:17):
as a music manager is that the most of the time,
you know, the idea that you are going to receive
back this expected une, you know, expected reality that they're
going to give you back what you're giving them is
usually not the case. You really have to find true

(31:39):
security in yourself and serve from a place of wholeness
to not feel resentiment towards your client because they're they're
worried about their own career, They're not worried about your
you know, for the most part.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
I mean there's a difference between serving, which I love,
and saving, Like if I'm coming in to save, like
I actually really feel like no one needs saving always,
No one needs saving, right like the world doesn't. I mean,
I know why you would feel and why why people
care and we have to fix this thing. But what

(32:11):
if everything that's happening is you know, in some bigger
level design to teach and to show us and to
you know, like we were saying, every time I've had
a major takedown in my life, things have come back
around in a way that like deepen my understanding of
true safety by losing it all, I found deeper safety

(32:33):
by holding on to it, like I'm afraid because I
have something to lose, right, and what of the deeper safety,
like is the understanding that no one needs saving? You know,
if I if you and I are working together and
you feel like I need to save you, we either
get into this drama triangle thing where like I'm your
job Ishmiele is to save me and you didn't do it.

(32:54):
I'm not saved, it's your fault, and then I become
the villain you know, or there and that won't work.
But and I don't when when I feel like someone
is here to save me, I feel like what they're
really saying to me is they don't trust me. They
don't believe in me. Like when when you if someone
comes and says, I'm so concerned about you, I just

(33:14):
want them to go away because the feeling I'm having
is like like you don't trust that I got this right,
And so that's that saving thing for me doesn't work
very well. What if I don't even need to be
saved or you don't need to be saved. But I
do want to refine so that I feel more peace. Right,

(33:35):
nothing's broken, but I would like to do a better
job of seeing this, you know, redefining the story or
the perspective so that I'm like feeling more peace and
nothing is required in the form of things to do that,
do you know what I mean? Like nothing has to
change in order, Like how many times have you had
a really stressful you're in fear and then you just

(33:58):
go to bed and the next morning you up and
it all feels a little different, like oh, you know,
and it was so real in the moment, and your
perspective changes and then like, oh hey, wait, okay, maybe
it wasn't as bad as I thought it was, right,
And I think that's what when I talk about looking within,
I want to be able to look within so I

(34:19):
can sort of help to guide that that thing that's like,
you know, I'm afraid and I'm so used to doing
to fix the fear. What happens when I can't do
it away that all I've got is to either suffer
in it or sit in it and get used to
the uncomfortability and try to cultivate away inside of myself
so that I can change the perspective. And as the

(34:41):
perspective changes, then that's where I feel peace. Nothing. It's
like I've said this to you before, but you can
imagine it's sort of like Lex the wave right. You're
a wave on the ocean, the form of Lex right,
And when you want passion, when you want to do something,
you want to create, you become a wave. You're the

(35:01):
ocean that turns into the form of Lex and you're
cruising along. There's Lex, beautiful wave. Nice job you're doing,
and then all of a sudden, Les is coming up
to the shore and it's like, holy shit, I'm about
to like crash onto the shore and break into a
thousand pieces. My life is over. And from that perspective
of form, when you're identified as Lex the wave, there's

(35:23):
all this fear because the wave is going to crash
on the shore and it will no longer exist. You're
going to be gone. But what really happens is that
the wave just turns back into the ocean again. So
when you want deep safety, when you want to be
feeling really safe, you identify more with I'm the ocean.
I'm not the form that of this body. I'm the

(35:45):
force that's animating this body. That's deep safety. When I
want passion, I want to be the wave, right, And
so playing those I think when I look within I'm
trying to touch the ocean inside of myself instead of
the wave, trying to like identify with the ocean part
of you know, of me, which isn't even early Ishmael,

(36:06):
like what this ish miele ish mile is a body here,
it's a form. It's a set of memories that I
don't even remember that much of what's happened before. And
then you know, and then when I get into fear,
it's when I start thinking about things that were uncomfortable
in the past, you know, the that can feel uncomfortable,
the the you know, the what is it the pains

(36:29):
of my past right or the fear of from those
pains of what's going to happen in the future. How
often do I sit in just the loving presence right
now of what is I'm here with Lex, We're sitting
and we're talking, and when I can do that, it
feels like what is there to fix what's broken? Like,
you know, we think everything's broken. And then I'm like, Lex,

(36:50):
is it warm enough in here? Do you have a
glass of water? Are you? Like? Is there anything wrong
right now? You know? If there is, let's like focus
on that. But what we do is we focus on
the story of what might or might not happen in
the future and what did happen in the past and
what that means, and so like that, taking time to
look within to find deeper meaning is also just learning

(37:10):
how to be and loving presence. Right when we do that,
I don't know, peace arises, Like I just read it
last night. It was The Course in Miracles says this,
what is it? I may not get it exactly right,
but that which is real cannot be threatened, you know,
like truth and love and what's really real, it can't
be threatened. It just is that which is unreal, which

(37:34):
is like fear. The stories that we tell, they aren't real.
That which is unreal doesn't exist, and therein lies the
peace of God, which is like when you realize that
fear is an illusion, you know, it has definite consequences
and it has definite impact. Like if we believe in

(37:54):
fear and we're living in fear, it will affect our bodies.
That's what's happening. We're in this dat of deep fear
and resistance in the world right now, right But the
fear is just a perception. You wake up in the
morning and the fear is gone. Nothing's changed except for
your perspective, and it goes away. And I want to
have more skill and teach people how to be more

(38:16):
skillful in their ability to sit with themselves so they
can know the difference between you know what fear is
and you know what love is. You know, and so
often we are compelled by our fears as an act
of love. You know what I mean When I say that,
Like I think, I'm you know, I thought that with

(38:37):
the storming of the Capitol, when that happened, I'm like,
there was a lot of passion right there, ACKed by
a lot of fear that if we don't do this,
something's going to happen, right, And I'm more looking for
passion without the fear. I want that passion that I care,
But I don't want to be backed by fear of
the fear of what could happen or what did happen? Right,

(38:57):
I don't want to learn how to do that. And
then you know how we do it, lexis, we don't
talk about it all this talking. We start to embody
it in our beings. We want to give a roadmap
to the people we love. We want peace on earth.
We got to find peace in here. And there's no
amount of doing that can find that. There's nothing you
can do as an act that will help you find

(39:20):
peace if you can't find it within yourself. And honestly,
for me, it's uncomfortable, like it still is, like I
don't like to sit and I don't really even meditate classically.
I just want to move at a pace of my
life that's slow enough so I can really pay attention
to what's going on within me and be really authentic

(39:40):
in what that is. And I can say to my wife, Honey,
I'm triggered right now, and I want to blame you.
I feel like it's about you, but I know it's
not about you, and so I'm just going to take
a little while to let this feeling pass and then
I want to come back and check in with you
on it and like, see, did that impact you. But
if I'm triggered in the moment, it never helps me
to try to work it out in that moment. So

(40:01):
that would be like moving at a pace of relationship
where I can really study myself, you know, And I
mean that's the only game in town.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
For me.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
It's like my success is really how deeply can I
look at myself and be with myself and not judge
myself for what I see, and then take real direct actions, firm,
clear actions that help me to two you know, express

(40:37):
that and share and there's no arrival. It's not like
here he is, I did all the work. It's every day,
all the time. And when you're in that, you know
they call it the work. You know, you've heard that.
I want to do my work, and that's the work.
Is like, I want to look at what impulses are
driving me and not be so compelled by them that

(40:59):
I don't understand what they are, and then enough strength
in myself to return quickly to this place of peace.
And I've noticed that happening more and more in my
life as I've gotten older. And you know, like ever,
I think a good signal that you're getting it is
when you look back at everything that happened and you
don't regret any of it, even the worst of things.

(41:22):
You know, I was molested as a child, and my
mother was an alcoholic and a drug addict, and you know,
there was a lot of hardship, and I look back,
I'm like, thank God all that happened, because because of that,
I have so much compassion for every other person that
goes through that. Without that, I wouldn't have any context
to it. And you know, I could tell the story

(41:44):
that I'm not okay, that I am the product of that,
and I am affected by it. I still get affected
by it. I can get triggered. I have responses. I'm
just more aware that it's coming. I'm like, oh, you know,
there's that old triggered response. And what's different now is
instead of being identified with that response, it's more like
there it is, oh yeah, that feeling there you are

(42:05):
instead of I'm so afraid right now, Alex, It's like,
oh wow, there's a lot of fear present right now.
And there's a part of me that's not afraid looking
at myself being afraid. And I like cultivating that. It
can be through practices. You know, I play music in
the morning, but it's more like a life, slow walking
meditation of looking at these things. And again, I just

(42:26):
have to say it's so much as based on being
kind to myself as I do it that I cannot
express how many people successful people quote. Successful people are
so hard on themselves and that drives them forward, but
they can't really look because they are going to punish themselves,
so they just do. And you can get as much

(42:48):
doing tone and have all the things that look like success,
but feel unsatisfied. And you can have very little in
the world but have this place of an internal peace
and it's I betrayed it ten times over for any
worldly success. And beautifully enough, if you get this right,
it actually can help you to have true like it's

(43:10):
not that you can't have abundance, but abundance with peace
is a way nicer combination than abundance or none, you know,
like abundance with passion without fear, abundance with peace.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
Passion without fear, abundance with peace. So much to impact,
And what you said, I just for someone who is
used to kind of talking so much. I think one
of the things that I resonate with spending time with
you is that I'm legitate at odds sometimes and just
like the clarity that the journey has given you in

(43:48):
and the way that that information really sticks to me
like glue, and it's transformative and transformative to my life.
But I know I have a lot of listeners who
are young people who say, Okay, well, you know, all
this sounds amazing, but how do I start, like, where

(44:11):
is that starting point? And what was that starting point
in your journey in your own personal life? Because I
know we met in this very place you know I was.
I was. I want to say, I'm like a scary
little boy that came with his tail in the middle
of his eggs at a place in my life where

(44:34):
I felt lost. You know that that was the the
the point where I felt that even though to the outside.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
World everyone was seeing that you were having.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Success, everyone was seeing success and structure and oh my
God has it all together and he's My inside was
just like, ah, I can't do this anymore.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
So it's it's the question what brought me into my
desire to look?

Speaker 1 (45:04):
And yeah, I think it's a threefold I think it's one.
If I'm a listener and I'm listening to you speak
and I'm listening to this conversation, maybe listen to the
whole list of episodes on this podcast, how do I start?

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
In answering that before, how did you start?

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Right?

Speaker 1 (45:25):
Like, what's your story and how do we get to
this beautiful couch where we share so.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Much questionable If it's a beautiful couch, a comfortable couch, yeah,
I don't know if there was a start exactly Like
I actually feel like any of us that are alive
in twenty twenty five, right that it started. It started.
It it started by being born right now, like we're

(45:53):
in you know, it could look like just the most
scary because there's an incredible turning of energy, things being
you know, we all have our personal takedowns that happen
where we lose and you know, just a brief answer
for the how it started, the more spiritual looking within
was the threat of losing things that I loved. You know,

(46:13):
peace partnership for me was part of it. But but
you know, it really started at birth. It just started
by being born into the life I was born into.
And I feel this incredible turning that looks like an
incredible takedown. Their environment is being destroyed, the structures that
we love and are being taken apart, and we really

(46:35):
are in an incredible period of transition. And at the
same time that that's happening, I feel this like, you know,
it's like this this big swinging thing going around and around,
and it's and if you're in the momentum of that
and not caught in the story of it, it has
the potential. Like I actually am super inspired to be

(46:56):
alive right now, Like everything that we want and could
ever need is at our fingertips right now, especially you
know if we're in the United States and we're so privileged.
But with that whole thing that's happening of the takedown,
there's a momentum that's rising up. And I just feel
like in all the people I work, I feel like

(47:18):
a deeper willingness and all the people that I meet,
everyone wants, even if they don't know it, they want
to look within. They just don't know how. We're a
culture of people that don't have any roots, no pathway,
no roadmap, and something's emerging. A roadmap is emerging in
each one of us that are doing our work. And

(47:38):
I just look at you, Lex and I'm not requiring
an arrival. I just see a man who has had
the metrics of success and saw that it wasn't going
to bring you deep happiness and a willingness to start
your journey to look within. So it's like I realize that,
you know, it's hard to do it until you get there.
You have to Sometimes to the younger people, I give

(48:00):
them the dignity of the experience they're happening. Whatever you
need to do. Like one of my sons really really
wants to be financially wealthy, that's his goal. I would
never say that's not the way. Don't do that. I've
done it before. It'll never bring you upy. You can't
do that, like give them the dignity of their experience.
But along the way, just like being a roadmap, and

(48:20):
you know, like another just metric of success is like
all of my sons are grown, they're all, you know,
between twenty eight and forty, and they still call me
all the time. And they're never calling me to get advice,
even though sometimes there I'm just clear they don't want
to hear. They don't want me to tell them what
to do. They're just looking at me to see if

(48:42):
I trust that what they're doing is okay, or if
I believe they're going to be okay. And I don't
do that by saying you're going to be okay. I
do it by like, am I trying to control them
through my fear? No, don't do that and make sure
that you That never works. But when they just feel
me going, I got you, trust you, you know, and
I can have my feelings, but like there's an overall divine,

(49:05):
masculine for me energy that I feel, the Great Father
energy that says the sun is still shining. I know
it's cloudy down there, but I'm a reminder the sun
is shining. And I don't do that through saying it.
I just feel it in myself and share my love
with them. I mean, when you can feel love, that success,
when you can actually really feel it, you know, and

(49:26):
you know part of like we've just talked about that
earlier today. To feel love, we have to be able
to feel grief. We have to be able to say
goodbye and feel the first door we have grief, which
is you're going to lose everything that you love and
everything that you have y say goodbye to it, either
right now or when you die right and to start

(49:50):
that process, you have to be able to grieve and go.
I'm taking that in because what we really do as
a culture is avoided at all costs. I don't think
about that. It's not happened to right now. Member. I
used to have this little sign on my VW van
that said it's all good, right, which was another saying
I don't have to grieve I don't have to feel
that I'm making it all good, so there's nothing to

(50:12):
there's no loss involved here. And yet now I'm like, oh,
I want to learn how to grieve, not because I
want to be depressed and dark grief is the doorway
to all the feelings if we can't grieve deeply inside
of ourselves. And I'm not talking about regret or shame
or blame, talking about being able to feel the depth

(50:32):
of like just think about like you know your little girl,
your wife, and you have to say goodbye, and if
you can't touch the feeling of that, then something's missing.
And that's dangerous because if you can't touch that, you
can let anything of precious value be destroyed. And we
do it. We don't grieve because we were afraid of

(50:53):
the feeling of like I can feel it inside of
myself right now. We're afraid of the feelings we're gonna.
I don't want to face that feeling of having to
say goodbye to something that I love. I ignore it
or bypass it or do it away. And what I
really want is to be able to feel it and
not store it. The grief. The painful part of grief

(51:14):
is the regret and the shame that we feel, and
those are what I call going sideways with grief. That's
when you know someone dies or you and you didn't
make it to their death, like why didn't I get
and then you spin and regret is just this like
it says I made a mistake and because I made
that mistake, I'm not worthy of love. That's what regret is.

(51:36):
Remorse is I made a mistake. I feel the impact
and I'm learning from it. And then you get released.
I feel it, I care, but now I'm just going
to a grieve the loss of this person. I'm not
going to keep storing I'm not worthy of love because
it happened, right, I should have done it better. That
ability to be able to grieve healthily is like a

(51:57):
part of what could say of our worlds. And I
think we'll say the world right. Grief is not something
we get over. It's not something we do it and
then okay, it's over. It's something we learn how to do.
We court grief when it comes. It's like a wave.
It comes and we feel that how many times do
you just miss somebody you love and it just shows
up like a wave on the ocean. And then you

(52:17):
feel it while it's there, you don't avoid it, and
then it goes back down into the sea of things.
I want to court it, and I think when we do,
we have a range of being able to feel. And
oftentimes for me, honestly, I don't think suffering is required,
but it has definitely helped me to touch my grief.
And the suffering is the part that says it shouldn't
have been the way it is, and the grief is

(52:39):
the part that says, now that it's happened, this is
what I really feel. And it's such a heavy price
to pay to not be able to feel grief. It's
called numbness. Numbness is just to be numb is like
to me, I mean, I guess there's probably other things
that are worse, but the least thing in my life
I'd rather be unc comfortable then numb. And I think

(53:01):
most people are choosing numbness over uncomfortability. Does that make sense, Yeah,
And so we kind of went around this little journey there.
But but for I mean, I would never tell the
new young people that might be listening learn how to grieve,
just like beyond no no One, you're emerging adult. Really
wants to learn how to grieve. But I would say

(53:24):
that if grief is if there's stuff coming up, to
be willing to, you know, to experience loss without trying
to avoid it and without storing it. And I would
just say that I trust what's emerging in the world
right now. I trust what's happening, and I don't know
what's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
But I think when when I read the question, and
this is interesting because I asked my team and maybe
we'll do at least one or two of the question.
But I asked the team because all of us, I
think the point is that none of us have arrived.
So I asked everyone in the team, is there a
question that you would love to ask when we have
this opportunity to have this kind of conversations and you know,

(54:09):
change perspectives and and one of those questions was was
that right? Just like, what what's the starting point? Because
you know, I think people notice transformation, people can see
when something different is happening in your life that you
can feel the energy in the starting.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Point is willingness, if we use a word, you have
to be willing to start, you know. And again the
course of miracles, who are the teachers of God. That's
like the framing they say, who are the people that
are going to teach about God? Anybody who feels called
to the one who's willing to is because that starts
that you have to have a willingness. I want to
look deeper than the constructs of what society says the

(54:46):
success a willingness And if you don't have that, then
no one's going to make you do that. Like you
know what you want and you're going to go for it,
you know, and then suddenly you lose something and a
deeper willingness comes in. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (54:59):
So? I think willingness, I think it's amazing too. And
I do think there's this being kind to yourself, especially
for our youth with the pressures of Instagram and everything.
It's like being kind to yourself, to your trauma, to
the things that trigger you. Because we're so quick to judge.

(55:20):
We're so quick to judge others, and we're so quick
to judge ourselves, and that creates shame and then it
creates them the desperate need for an outside thing to
supplement that. So I think willingness and self love have
been at least in my own personal journey kind of
the two things that started to change the dynamic of like, Okay,

(55:42):
I can actually go down this path, which is where
I'm going to grief, right, Like I think that's another
thing is like I say a lot in the podcast
that you know, pain is necessary for growth, and suffering
is a mental way how you perceive that pain. But
pain is necessary. You want to go to the gym,
you gotta yeah, sorry, you know this process for me,

(56:05):
that's another thing to this and having a moment of honesty,
This process of like looking inside hurts because you're facing
these hard rooted things that you've established as reality and
as your truth. And yeah, and I and you know,

(56:26):
I want to go back to the place where where
I was when I came here, you know, specifically my
relationship and love right and and how rooted I was
in the idea that my truth was the right truth.
And I how could I couldn't be with her because
look at what the stuff And I think the transformation

(56:48):
of my relationship to me was kind of the biggest
the pain I had to meet, the grief I have
to I had to be at a place.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
Where I was, and sometimes you have to be taken
down to do.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
It taken down And we were talking about that earlier,
about the concept that sometimes thing needs to be collapsed
in order for you to be able to build. You
have to demo a building in order to build a
new one on it isn't.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
That's right, And then we also talked about which is
a good one that you know, sometimes the demolition is
just like an explosion. But if you want to change realities,
well you do them. You know, you close one door,
you take the building down carefully before you start another one.
You don't just destroy it. You don't burn the bridge.
It's like that's a sign of initiatory adultness, is when

(57:33):
you can close one door relationship or work as you're
starting another one and it's not the burn down the
whole thing. And unfortunately, and maybe fortunately a lot of
times it's the takedown. It's just like you just got
full Nelson. You just got taken down and locked up,
and you have to face face it from that way
because we're so resistant to doing it. Well, we don't

(57:54):
know how that it has to happen hard, Does that
make sense? Like it it ends up being a show,
you know, and it's it's shamanically even like so many
people make the change when something but they have a
heart attack and all of a sudden they realize, oh
my god, or they suddenly are finding out they're going
to be divorced, or they get cancer or they and

(58:15):
that's the wake up call that shifts of the takedown,
the wake up call, same same analogy, and that's what
makes the shift. And you know, like I think any
young person who listens to this, and they'll know if
they're already shut it off because it's boring to them
and I don't want to do it, or they're interested.
And if they're interested, they've already started the process right.

(58:38):
And then another one I would say, what helped me? Like,
and I think it's helping you is it's rare to
have good mentors. It's like the we've you met Don
Rosenthal But I met this man, Don Rosenthalt. He was
twenty five years older than me, and I saw him
and I ride away said, oh my gosh, that's what
it could look like if I do my work. That's

(59:00):
what I could be my own version of that in
you know, twenty five years and to have somebody that's
older than that, you go older than you, and you go, wow,
that's a great example of what it can look like.
You know, I think that is a big part of something.
That's how I want to give back. I want to
be an example of that, you know, And it's I

(59:21):
want to do it because I want to serve, not
because I want to save, but I and because it's
I've seen the effect of that and how that helped me.
And I can see that, you know, our friendship and
relationship and mentorship is doing something like that for you.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
And even that first. You know, I speak a lot
about Don because in reading his book is giving me
a different perspective. I always say, like, it's really interesting.
And you do it all the time too, which is
really interesting to have an author check themselves in the process,
like here's the theory and by the way, I'm checking
the theory to time. The overall concept is just toll,

(59:57):
you know. And for me, I'll never forget the word
it's done said when we sat in that room and
he just said, my coustom is failing, but my mind
is intact. It was that moment where it was like, wow,
this is just a custom, Like wow, there's there's there's
idea about life that we have that it is it

(01:00:17):
is all over, when this matter is done, or where
this starts failing. And that was really impactful, and I

(01:00:39):
agree with you. I think mentorship and having I say
all the time in the podcast that our brain is
a computer, and there is things that you could do
yourself in your computer.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
You can send an email, you can write a text,
you can google something, and then there's things that you
need to be like hey, buddy, can you help me out?
And you call your friend and your friend is going
in there and helping you do an Excel sheet and
that's like community and this kind of conversation. And then
there's sometimes that you need a Google software engineer, you know,
like you got to take it to the to the

(01:01:11):
best by genius bar because you just can't do it
by yourself. And we see that happen in relationships. I
saw it happened in my own relationship where I saw
the identity I had within my truth block, the opportunity
to listen to someone else and like you said, take

(01:01:31):
that feedback, understand that lesson and that growth of the
mirror image and then be able to blossom the relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
Like I'll just check you on that just as a framing,
which is you said I saw, which implies it doesn't
happen anymore. Right, So a better framing, if we're going
to really do this, is like I see when that happens,
you know, because I saw, it's kind of been sank
to yourself. I did that, It's done now I'm now arrived.
And that's the kind of nuance I think we're How

(01:02:00):
do we frame things so that we can really learn
from them instead of perpetuating old stories?

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
And which one old story is I used to do it?
Like how many times can I how easy it is
to talk about my past as though I've taken care
of it and it's not happening in the present or
which is not true. Everything that's like you remember when
I used to do It's like I still do that.
I might be more aware of it, or you know,
there's certain compulsions that I don't follow anymore. But basically

(01:02:30):
everything that rows up in the past still shows up.
It's just what I am I aware that it's showing up,
and what do I want to do with it when
it does? You know? Like am I? And that's this
like looking within because you were saying that like, I
want to look within and you know, and I was saying,
and not judge myself for what I see and so
that I'm not being so compelled by all these reactions,

(01:02:51):
all these impulses, right, I want to take and I
think those are really important aspects of this work, you know,
to and this is I mean, would you say that
what you're experiencing now in your life is more important
than the doings? Yeah? And are they influencing what you
like to do?

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Yeah, it's it's been transformative to my everyday decision and
like you said, the struggle of that, but it's understanding
of being still enough to listen. And I've said that,
he says, like still enough to listen, still enough to
be able to even listen to ourselves, you know, listen

(01:03:34):
to to Like Dan says in the book, it's like
if you take a moment to replay the film, you'll
be able to catch that moment, and that moment will
give you a window into an awareness where when that
film gets replayed again, you can perceive it in a
different way or start to perceive it in a different way.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Well, you could also say that with like if I
just take a moment before I say something to see
if it's something I really need and want to say.
You may decide, I mean, how many times to be
just blurted out without even considering what the IMPACT's going
to be, you know? And how many times do I
take the moment see that it's not going to be
of use and I say it anyway?

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
And so that's another one, right, It is like can
we take enough time, can we go slow enough to
really consider? I think we have a belief that what
we say doesn't really matter, you know what I mean, like, oh,
it doesn't really matter, just say it, and then we're
highly offended when we say something and nobody takes it seriously. Right,
It's like both of these things. And I really believe
in my life and that's just basically what you're saying

(01:04:40):
about framing is that I really think it matters what
I say, you know, out into the world to others,
and most importantly within myself.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
I want to take this time to ask you two questions.
The team had, what's the idea of heaven? And is
there a promise land?

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
If heaven means that I go to some other place
after I die? That is that is, you know, going
to stop all the feelings, and then I don't believe
in that heaven in that way. I think heaven is
accessible right now by turning off the story. Right Like,

(01:05:17):
I had an experience of of dying, you know, I
did a medicine that like took me to it like
a plant medicine that took me into a whole other dimension.
And as I was going there, I realized my fear
was that that I was going to die and then
there was going to be nothing forever. And then I

(01:05:39):
in that journey going towards there, I stopped at that
door of there's nothing. I'm alone, I'm separate, I've lost everything,
and now I just sit in this awareness forever. And
I was a short period and I realized in that moment, Oh,
I'm not afraid of what people think. I'm not afraid
of dying. Although the process of dying and the letting
go of people that I'm I'm that causes a lot

(01:06:02):
of fear in there. But the deepest fare I have
is not existing after I die. That after I'm dead
and gone, there's nothing and that just goes on forever.
And what happened was it wasn't nothing forever. There was
no Ishmael there. It wasn't that it was everything. It

(01:06:22):
was total unity with everything. There was no separation. The
construct of Ishmael is a story that there's an Ishmael
and there's everything else. And this was like, there's just everything.
And it was to stamp with such truth and such
peace that as I returned back to Ishmael, I just said,

(01:06:44):
it's not nothing forever, it's everything forever. And I can't
say that. So Heaven to me is the separation from
the story that I'm separate. And it's not a place
I go. It's not a place out there. There's not
some place in the sky or that's the promised land.
It is the understanding that there's no separation between Ishmael

(01:07:08):
and the force of life that is animating everything. And
you know, the awakened ones or the people who realize
that while they're still alive. And I think that's what
happen is for me, and that's the Promised Land.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
Love that. And the second question is how do I
follow my dreams and reach my dreams while having an
internal peace?

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
Move slow, go slowly, yeah, or if you can't go slowly,
make good boundaries around having periods of slowness so that
you can actually see if it's really the dream that
you really want, right And like, I'm currently doing this
thing of taking like four days a month for me

(01:07:50):
that I'm not doing anything at all. It's not a phone.
I just get in my little RV and I go
to a natural spot and I I just commune with
myself and then from that place get to see if
I'm following my dreams, and I come back and make
a real stand to change them. But I have to
move slow. Like the thing is, we get going so
fast in the doing. The world's moving so fast right now,

(01:08:11):
and it's like slowing down a little bit as I
think the way that I can just see if I'm
really following my dream or if it's just the compulsion
anything else that you guys, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
There's one that Tony he's telling me. Please ask, So
I want to ask, how do you protect your energy
and spirituality? Will help you know?

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Yeah, by not telling any stories, meaning you know, like
when I'm in the field of holding that space for others,
I don't take anything personally. I don't let anybody's reaction
be something that's about me, no matter what's happening. And
just in general, when I do this work with when
I'm just counseling somebody, I'm fully present while i'm there,

(01:08:51):
and then when it's done, I don't go back and
replay the tapes and tell the story. It's like a
and the beautiful thing about it is I end up
leaving reinvigorated. I'm having this holy conversation with this other person,
and I'm teaching what I'm trying to learn myself. Does
that make sense? Like I'm I want to learn it,
and I'm sharing it and then I'm getting feedback, So

(01:09:11):
there's not really a teacher and a student. It's just
like this reciprocating thing. And when you do that, well,
you're just you leave feeling charged up, you know. And
I can tell when I don't get it right, which
is usually when I get attached to a narrative or
a story or a judgment and then I get tired.
Then it's like then I want to complain and judge.
And yeah, I can really feel like if I want

(01:09:33):
to heal myself, it's like, and I don't want to
be in disease disease like a diseaseful there's a real
requirement to you know to stop judgment and blame and
strong opinion. I can have opinions or understandings, but my
attachment to them, Like if I'm not attached, I give
you the dignity of your experience. Lex, go wherever you

(01:09:54):
want to go and do it however you want to.
And you know, I don't want to feed that. I
know what you're experience should look like. I have some
ideas of what feels good for me, and I think
safety between you and I is me. It requires me
not judging you or telling you what to do right,
loving you enough to want to help guide if you
feel it. But also I love that that was one

(01:10:14):
down statement, like I give you the dignity of your experience,
Like I don't know what your experience is supposed to
look like, so don't judge it. And just think about
how many times you judge somebody else you think they
know and you can see they're going to suffer, and
you get attached to their suffering, especially as a parent,
we do that, right, But like I get the dignity

(01:10:35):
of their experience and then you let it go so
you're not attached to the outcome, and it's RESTful. It's like, oh, gosh,
I feel a lot better like not getting all caught
up in their story. I feel it when I do,
and I don't know that helped Tony.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
So we always end the podcast with a beautiful exercise
that talks about everything we've been talking here, right, which
is words, have our mind, believest what we tell it,
and we're with ourselves more than we are with anybody else.
So what is one word or one phrase, Alishamael could

(01:11:11):
tell himself that you could share with us that can
change how your mind and body perceives the rest of today,
the rest of this week.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Would be two words, love and kindness.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
It has been amazing. Thank you for doing this. It's
very very special to me. You know. I could only
say that we are exactly where we are supposed to be, Yeah,
and we're sharing exactly what we're supposed to be sharing.
So it's been a blessing. And I'm so thankful for

(01:11:51):
sharing this, this this space with you, and thank you
for letting us into your home and all the production
team into your own. Yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
I love you, brother, I love you too, And I'm
glad it's not over.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
Yeah, I'm glad that we get to continue Thank You,
You Versus You as a production of Neon sixteen and
Entertained Studios in partnership with the Iheartmichael Tuda podcast Network.
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