September 2, 2025 • 14 mins
Nearly half a million people die every year as a result of extreme heat. That’s more than the total from hurricanes, earthquakes and floods combined. And as the planet warms, the risk of deadly heat is increasing.
On Bloomberg's Big Take podcast, climate reporter Zahra Hirji brings Sarah Holder a dispatch from a lab at the forefront of understanding how heat affects the human body. They break down the latest science on deadly heat, why everyone is at more risk than they realize — and what actually works to mitigate those risks.
Read more:
- Scientist Shuts Himself in 104F Chamber in Quest to Study Heat Stress
- Listen to more from the Big Take podcast: https://www.bloomberg.com/audio
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, It's sukshat in the Northern Hemisphere. Summer is coming
to a close, and it's leaving behind a spate of
grim climate headlines. There have been not just record breaking temperatures,
but also deadly heat waves in Europe, Japan, Pakistan, and
even the US. On our sister podcast, The Big Take,
(00:23):
my colleagues Zarahirje and Aaron Clark looked at what researchers
are doing to make people safer at home and at
work even as heat waves continue to grow in number
and become more extreme. Take a listen and Zero will
be back later this week.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Zarahirg covers climate at Bloomberg and she recently had the
opportunity to take a trip to one of the hottest
places in the world.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
And I took an elevator and upstairs in a university building,
elevator comes out in a corner and if you turn,
like in Canada, there's this long, tall hallway.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
And all along that hallway is one of the world's
largest research facilities dedicated to studying the effects of heat
on the human body.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
And we kind of just spent the day walking through
opening door number one, door number two, door number three.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Behind each one there were people doing all kinds of tests.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
How's that?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Oh, it's okay here.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
People like Janet Spencer.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
She's seventy five years old. She describes herself as a
veteran of the lab. She's retired. Specifically, she's a retired
mediator for Canada's Human Rights Commission.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
I've never imagined did that be a guinea pig for size?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
What temperature are we at?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
We're at thirty six degrees so pretty warm for sure.
Janet was doing what's called a passive trial, where she
was just sort of hanging out in the heat. These
can be full days. In March, she was there for
three days straight, which meant she was sleeping in the room,
and she described it as watching a ton of Netflix.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
When Zara met Janet, she'd only been in the lab
for an hour, but she was already feeling the effects.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
When I started, I.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Brought my paper to read and I managed to read
that in the first half hour. But right now, pretty
much all I'm capable of is playing mindless solitary games.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
You know, down the hall, Bob Striker was doing a
very different kind of experiment.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
And how do you feel right now? Since I just
saw you walking on the chunnel for a while in
the heat.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I'm tired, Jad And in another room, let's Suckstorf was
recovering from a cycling test.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Mentally, it really starts to drain you like it.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Really, it becomes an effort, you know, literally that one
foot in front of the other. If we had another
half an hour, forty five minutes, my body would have
started to saying no, this is no funny.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
When Janet, Bob and Lutz spoke with Zara, that kept
the mood light. But their motivations for participating in this
research and the goals of the research itself are very serious.
Nearly half a million people die every year as a
result of extreme heat, according to research compiled by the
reinsurance company Swiss Ree. That's more than the total from hurricanes, earthquakes,
(03:24):
and floods combined, and Zara says the real number is
likely even higher.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Often we're just maybe tracking the most extreme cases that
are coming through hospitals. But you know, if you're dying
from a heart problem that was tied to the heat,
that might not necessarily be recorded as a heat death.
So you know, it is a really big number that
we don't even have a full grasp.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
On I'm Sarah Holder and this is the big take
from Bloomberg News Today. On the show, the researchers on
the forefront of the latest science on deadly heat, why
everyone's at more risk than they think, and what actually
works to mitigate those risks. The Heat Lab at the
(04:15):
University of Ottawa, the Human and Environmental Physiology Research Unit,
has been around since two thousand and Over the last
two decades, the lab has been at the forefront of
studying human's ability to live and work in the heat.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
A lot of the work that I am doing is
really focused on understanding the impacts of heat exposure on
the health and well being of the general public and workers.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
The man in charge is doctor Glenn Kenny. He's been
studying the effects of heat on the human body for
thirty five years and he says, in many ways, this
is an old problem.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
When we think about, for example, workers, and we think
about the impacts that heat has, this is not new.
This is something we've known for decades.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
But as the climate changes, heat is only growing more extreme.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
It was only a couple of years ago, in twenty
twenty one, that the Western Heat Dome, which was this
really deadly heat wave hit the western part of Canada,
also the western part of the US, but in Western Canada,
like over six hundred people died. A lot of them
were elderly, and a lot of them that were people
living in their home who didn't have air conditioning and
(05:23):
they're basically cooking in their homes, and people didn't have
a way to kind of check in on them, and
unfortunately a lot of them didn't realize they were too
uncomfortably hot until it was too late because of their
impered ability to sense it.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Kenny says, to keep people safe, you need to understand
how heat affects different kinds of bodies. He says that
older heat guidelines have typically been based on research focused
on young, healthy people who've had limited heat exposures, think
a couple of hours at a time. That's where his
test subjects come in. Kenny and his team use specialized
(06:02):
equipment to measure how extreme heat can affect body temperature
in simulated real world conditions.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
We have an.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Apartment styled chamber where we have a bag, where we
have a kitchen and wash them where we can bring
in the patient and have them live within that chamber,
so that we can understand what happens to them and
monitor them not only during the daytime, but also what
is the impact all that heat exposure on sleep.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Kenny also has another secret weapon, a one of a
kind air calorimeter, which is lab uses to measure the
amount of heat released from or absorbed in the body.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
So we did that before and after the three day exposure,
so we can see if there's a decrease in my
capacity to space, So is that exposure also causing deterioration
in my ability THRM will regulate.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
But that's not the only data the lab is collecting.
The team keeps close tabs on participations, cognitive and physical performance,
and records detailed updates on their temperatures.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
These are actually pretty uncomfortable trials. I mean, the more
I was learning about it and talking with people, I'm like,
I'm not sure I would want to do this. They
do a lot of tracking of your temperature, and we
may think, oh, you can take their skin temperatures right
when you go to the hospital or the doctor and
they check to see if you have a fever, but
(07:28):
that's really not the best way to get a gauge
of how hot your insights are. That's called a skin temperature,
but it's better to get a core temperature, and there
are a couple of different ways they can do that,
including putting something down your esophagus, which is like really intrusive,
but also the more common is like a rectal probe,
and that was tracking their core temperature that she was
(07:50):
sort of wearing on a fanny pack.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Armed with the data from these experiments, Kenny's lab has
been assessing whether the upper limit for a safe indoor
temperature recommended by some Canadian officials twenty six degrees celsius
or just under seventy nine degrees fahrenheit, is actually safe
and they've found that for a day, it seems to be.
What they're trying to figure out now is how the
(08:13):
body responds to those temperatures over longer periods of time.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
When you are exposed to temperaures above twenty six degrees celsius,
older adults and individuals with chronic diseases are going to
start seeing increases in their level of physiological strength. But
I want you to imagine that increase in temperature is
a strain. Go out and exercise and keep that stress. Now,
that's a stress, and that stress is essentially maintained over time.
(08:41):
That person is going overheat. If that heat wave stays
and overheating is consistent, that strain will remain.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
So in a warming world, how can people reduce the
strains that come with extreme heat? And are all cooling
options created equal? That's after the break. Here in New
York where I am, when a heat wave hits, the
(09:10):
city opens up public cooling centers. But doctor Glenn Kenny,
who runs one of the world's largest heat labs at
the University of Ottawa, says cooling centers alone don't totally
protect against the risks of extreme heat.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
The problem is, upon re entering to the heat, you
haven't removed all that heat from the body. Air is
not a good conductor of heat unlike water, right, So
one of the things upon re entering the heat, the
body actually warmed up very quickly. So the challenge is
is that that person feels very well, They feel more relaxed,
they feel cooler. The problem is, within a couple hours
(09:44):
their body heats up very fast and get as hot
as their non cool counterpart. So imagine they're going to
they may not adjust their behavior because essentially they feel better.
So the problem is is feeling better actually masks the
risk that they face because they're temperature are equally as.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
High Bloomberg Zara here G says. Another researcher, this one
at the University of Sydney who did his postdoc at
Kenny's lab, looked at the efficacy of fans and how
they could be used in Bangladeshi garment factories where workers
face especially hot and humid conditions.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Every part of the world, heat is a combination of
high temperatures and humidity, So in a place like Bangladesh
you can have much higher humidity than you might in
some other places, and so that's a key thing to understand,
and the type of solutions that you then have to
keep people cool can be different. So you know, when
(10:39):
we're looking, for example, at electric fans, like how effective
are they as compared to air conditioning. Air Conditioning is
always going to be the best, but not everybody has
access to that right, especially across the developing world. So
a key part of cooling is not just sweating, but
then that's what be able to cool or to dry off.
(11:00):
That drying piece that is essential if you're just sweating
and sweating and sweating you are going to keep overheating,
and so you need it to continually be drying to
be effective. And so that's one thing where a fan
in a particularly human environment might be helpful because it
can help kind of encourage sweating to have that maximum potential.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
But it's worth noting fans also come with risks. In
extremely hot and dry climates, fans can actually heat people
up faster, and like cooling centers, Kenny says, fans can
give people a false sense of security. They can make
you feel better while you're using them, so good that
you may feel well enough to go back out in
(11:43):
the heat.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
But what's important here is it doesn't reduce the strain
on the body. And though it makes you feel better,
that again mass the potential dangers that you might experience
because you're not able to sess the fact that you
are probably going to be overheated, or you are overheated,
you're understrength.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
The United Nations has used Kenny's research to inform its
worker safety recommendations, and Zara says it's not just governments
that are taking notice. Companies like smart Cone are too.
They make devices and wearables to monitor the temperature on
job sites.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
One of the clients they're currently working with is United,
the airline company, which is told me how they are
testing out smart Cones, wearable device which helps monitor heat
exposure and worker exertion at employees working on the tarmac
and on the ground at Phoenix Airport. So this is
(12:40):
still early days.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Egg frying on the tarmac conditions probably right.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
But real world example of how this is playing out.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Zara says that when she asks heat researchers about the
next big questions in their field, their answers usually fall
into two camps.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
The first was what are the most practical takeaways we
can get in the applications of this work to really
help best improve people's safety today? And then it's what's
going to happen in the future. How do we understand
how hot is it actually going to get? And then
what does that mean for people's health. Part of the
(13:18):
interesting research that's going on is trying to understand that,
and it really is a whole bunch of unknowns and
really like we don't know what is the limit. I
feel like that's a lot of what this work is
trying to figure out.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
This is the big take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder.
The show is hosted by Me, David gera wanj and
Seleia Mosen. The show is made by Aaron Edwards, David Fox,
Eleanor Harrison Dengate, Patti hirsh Rachel Lewis, Krisky, Naomi Julia Press,
Tracy Samuelson, Naomi Shaven, Alex Sugia, Julia Weaver, Yang Yong
(13:59):
and Taka Yasuzawa. To get more from the Big Take
and unlimited access to all of bloomberg dot com, subscribe
today at Bloomberg dot com Slash Podcast Offer. Thanks for listening.
We'll be back on Monday.
Hi, It's sukshat in the Northern Hemisphere. Summer is coming
to a close, and it's leaving behind a spate of
grim climate headlines. There have been not just record breaking temperatures,
but also deadly heat waves in Europe, Japan, Pakistan, and
even the US. On our sister podcast, The Big Take,
(00:23):
my colleagues Zarahirje and Aaron Clark looked at what researchers
are doing to make people safer at home and at
work even as heat waves continue to grow in number
and become more extreme. Take a listen and Zero will
be back later this week.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Zarahirg covers climate at Bloomberg and she recently had the
opportunity to take a trip to one of the hottest
places in the world.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
And I took an elevator and upstairs in a university building,
elevator comes out in a corner and if you turn,
like in Canada, there's this long, tall hallway.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
And all along that hallway is one of the world's
largest research facilities dedicated to studying the effects of heat
on the human body.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
And we kind of just spent the day walking through
opening door number one, door number two, door number three.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Behind each one there were people doing all kinds of tests.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
How's that?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Oh, it's okay here.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
People like Janet Spencer.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
She's seventy five years old. She describes herself as a
veteran of the lab. She's retired. Specifically, she's a retired
mediator for Canada's Human Rights Commission.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
I've never imagined did that be a guinea pig for size?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
What temperature are we at?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
We're at thirty six degrees so pretty warm for sure.
Janet was doing what's called a passive trial, where she
was just sort of hanging out in the heat. These
can be full days. In March, she was there for
three days straight, which meant she was sleeping in the room,
and she described it as watching a ton of Netflix.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
When Zara met Janet, she'd only been in the lab
for an hour, but she was already feeling the effects.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
When I started, I.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Brought my paper to read and I managed to read
that in the first half hour. But right now, pretty
much all I'm capable of is playing mindless solitary games.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
You know, down the hall, Bob Striker was doing a
very different kind of experiment.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
And how do you feel right now? Since I just
saw you walking on the chunnel for a while in
the heat.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I'm tired, Jad And in another room, let's Suckstorf was
recovering from a cycling test.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Mentally, it really starts to drain you like it.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Really, it becomes an effort, you know, literally that one
foot in front of the other. If we had another
half an hour, forty five minutes, my body would have
started to saying no, this is no funny.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
When Janet, Bob and Lutz spoke with Zara, that kept
the mood light. But their motivations for participating in this
research and the goals of the research itself are very serious.
Nearly half a million people die every year as a
result of extreme heat, according to research compiled by the
reinsurance company Swiss Ree. That's more than the total from hurricanes, earthquakes,
(03:24):
and floods combined, and Zara says the real number is
likely even higher.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Often we're just maybe tracking the most extreme cases that
are coming through hospitals. But you know, if you're dying
from a heart problem that was tied to the heat,
that might not necessarily be recorded as a heat death.
So you know, it is a really big number that
we don't even have a full grasp.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
On I'm Sarah Holder and this is the big take
from Bloomberg News Today. On the show, the researchers on
the forefront of the latest science on deadly heat, why
everyone's at more risk than they think, and what actually
works to mitigate those risks. The Heat Lab at the
(04:15):
University of Ottawa, the Human and Environmental Physiology Research Unit,
has been around since two thousand and Over the last
two decades, the lab has been at the forefront of
studying human's ability to live and work in the heat.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
A lot of the work that I am doing is
really focused on understanding the impacts of heat exposure on
the health and well being of the general public and workers.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
The man in charge is doctor Glenn Kenny. He's been
studying the effects of heat on the human body for
thirty five years and he says, in many ways, this
is an old problem.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
When we think about, for example, workers, and we think
about the impacts that heat has, this is not new.
This is something we've known for decades.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
But as the climate changes, heat is only growing more extreme.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
It was only a couple of years ago, in twenty
twenty one, that the Western Heat Dome, which was this
really deadly heat wave hit the western part of Canada,
also the western part of the US, but in Western Canada,
like over six hundred people died. A lot of them
were elderly, and a lot of them that were people
living in their home who didn't have air conditioning and
(05:23):
they're basically cooking in their homes, and people didn't have
a way to kind of check in on them, and
unfortunately a lot of them didn't realize they were too
uncomfortably hot until it was too late because of their
impered ability to sense it.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Kenny says, to keep people safe, you need to understand
how heat affects different kinds of bodies. He says that
older heat guidelines have typically been based on research focused
on young, healthy people who've had limited heat exposures, think
a couple of hours at a time. That's where his
test subjects come in. Kenny and his team use specialized
(06:02):
equipment to measure how extreme heat can affect body temperature
in simulated real world conditions.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
We have an.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Apartment styled chamber where we have a bag, where we
have a kitchen and wash them where we can bring
in the patient and have them live within that chamber,
so that we can understand what happens to them and
monitor them not only during the daytime, but also what
is the impact all that heat exposure on sleep.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Kenny also has another secret weapon, a one of a
kind air calorimeter, which is lab uses to measure the
amount of heat released from or absorbed in the body.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
So we did that before and after the three day exposure,
so we can see if there's a decrease in my
capacity to space, So is that exposure also causing deterioration
in my ability THRM will regulate.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
But that's not the only data the lab is collecting.
The team keeps close tabs on participations, cognitive and physical performance,
and records detailed updates on their temperatures.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
These are actually pretty uncomfortable trials. I mean, the more
I was learning about it and talking with people, I'm like,
I'm not sure I would want to do this. They
do a lot of tracking of your temperature, and we
may think, oh, you can take their skin temperatures right
when you go to the hospital or the doctor and
they check to see if you have a fever, but
(07:28):
that's really not the best way to get a gauge
of how hot your insights are. That's called a skin temperature,
but it's better to get a core temperature, and there
are a couple of different ways they can do that,
including putting something down your esophagus, which is like really intrusive,
but also the more common is like a rectal probe,
and that was tracking their core temperature that she was
(07:50):
sort of wearing on a fanny pack.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Armed with the data from these experiments, Kenny's lab has
been assessing whether the upper limit for a safe indoor
temperature recommended by some Canadian officials twenty six degrees celsius
or just under seventy nine degrees fahrenheit, is actually safe
and they've found that for a day, it seems to be.
What they're trying to figure out now is how the
(08:13):
body responds to those temperatures over longer periods of time.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
When you are exposed to temperaures above twenty six degrees celsius,
older adults and individuals with chronic diseases are going to
start seeing increases in their level of physiological strength. But
I want you to imagine that increase in temperature is
a strain. Go out and exercise and keep that stress. Now,
that's a stress, and that stress is essentially maintained over time.
(08:41):
That person is going overheat. If that heat wave stays
and overheating is consistent, that strain will remain.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
So in a warming world, how can people reduce the
strains that come with extreme heat? And are all cooling
options created equal? That's after the break. Here in New
York where I am, when a heat wave hits, the
(09:10):
city opens up public cooling centers. But doctor Glenn Kenny,
who runs one of the world's largest heat labs at
the University of Ottawa, says cooling centers alone don't totally
protect against the risks of extreme heat.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
The problem is, upon re entering to the heat, you
haven't removed all that heat from the body. Air is
not a good conductor of heat unlike water, right, So
one of the things upon re entering the heat, the
body actually warmed up very quickly. So the challenge is
is that that person feels very well, They feel more relaxed,
they feel cooler. The problem is, within a couple hours
(09:44):
their body heats up very fast and get as hot
as their non cool counterpart. So imagine they're going to
they may not adjust their behavior because essentially they feel better.
So the problem is is feeling better actually masks the
risk that they face because they're temperature are equally as.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
High Bloomberg Zara here G says. Another researcher, this one
at the University of Sydney who did his postdoc at
Kenny's lab, looked at the efficacy of fans and how
they could be used in Bangladeshi garment factories where workers
face especially hot and humid conditions.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Every part of the world, heat is a combination of
high temperatures and humidity, So in a place like Bangladesh
you can have much higher humidity than you might in
some other places, and so that's a key thing to understand,
and the type of solutions that you then have to
keep people cool can be different. So you know, when
(10:39):
we're looking, for example, at electric fans, like how effective
are they as compared to air conditioning. Air Conditioning is
always going to be the best, but not everybody has
access to that right, especially across the developing world. So
a key part of cooling is not just sweating, but
then that's what be able to cool or to dry off.
(11:00):
That drying piece that is essential if you're just sweating
and sweating and sweating you are going to keep overheating,
and so you need it to continually be drying to
be effective. And so that's one thing where a fan
in a particularly human environment might be helpful because it
can help kind of encourage sweating to have that maximum potential.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
But it's worth noting fans also come with risks. In
extremely hot and dry climates, fans can actually heat people
up faster, and like cooling centers, Kenny says, fans can
give people a false sense of security. They can make
you feel better while you're using them, so good that
you may feel well enough to go back out in
(11:43):
the heat.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
But what's important here is it doesn't reduce the strain
on the body. And though it makes you feel better,
that again mass the potential dangers that you might experience
because you're not able to sess the fact that you
are probably going to be overheated, or you are overheated,
you're understrength.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
The United Nations has used Kenny's research to inform its
worker safety recommendations, and Zara says it's not just governments
that are taking notice. Companies like smart Cone are too.
They make devices and wearables to monitor the temperature on
job sites.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
One of the clients they're currently working with is United,
the airline company, which is told me how they are
testing out smart Cones, wearable device which helps monitor heat
exposure and worker exertion at employees working on the tarmac
and on the ground at Phoenix Airport. So this is
(12:40):
still early days.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Egg frying on the tarmac conditions probably right.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
But real world example of how this is playing out.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Zara says that when she asks heat researchers about the
next big questions in their field, their answers usually fall
into two camps.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
The first was what are the most practical takeaways we
can get in the applications of this work to really
help best improve people's safety today? And then it's what's
going to happen in the future. How do we understand
how hot is it actually going to get? And then
what does that mean for people's health. Part of the
(13:18):
interesting research that's going on is trying to understand that,
and it really is a whole bunch of unknowns and
really like we don't know what is the limit. I
feel like that's a lot of what this work is
trying to figure out.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
This is the big take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder.
The show is hosted by Me, David gera wanj and
Seleia Mosen. The show is made by Aaron Edwards, David Fox,
Eleanor Harrison Dengate, Patti hirsh Rachel Lewis, Krisky, Naomi Julia Press,
Tracy Samuelson, Naomi Shaven, Alex Sugia, Julia Weaver, Yang Yong
(13:59):
and Taka Yasuzawa. To get more from the Big Take
and unlimited access to all of bloomberg dot com, subscribe
today at Bloomberg dot com Slash Podcast Offer. Thanks for listening.
We'll be back on Monday.
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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.