November 24, 2025 • 27 mins
Over the last two weeks, tens of thousands of people took to the city of Belem, at the mouth of the Amazon river, for the annual United Nations climate summit: COP30.
Alongside tense negotiations, there were indigenous protests, daily rainstorms and even a fire at the COP venue. But at the end of it all, what did COP30 achieve? Bloomberg Green’s Jennifer Dlouhy joins Akshat Rathi on Zero, to share her takeaways.
Explore further:
- COP30 in Brazil: A Decade After Paris, Climate Diplomacy Is About Saving Itself - Bloomberg
- COP30 Climate Deal: What to Know About the Agreement in Brazil - Bloomberg
Zero is a production of Bloomberg Green. Our producer is Oscar Boyd. Our theme music is composed by Wonderly. Special thanks to the COP30 team Amanda Hurley, Simon Casey, John Ainger, Jen Dlouhy, Fabiano Maisonnave, Daniel Carvalho, Vanessa Dezem and Dayanne Sousa. Thanks also to Anna Mazarakis, Sommer Saadi, Mohsis Andam, Laura Millan and Sharon Chen.
Thoughts or suggestions? Email us at zeropod@bloomberg.net. For more coverage of climate change and solutions, visit https://www.bloomberg.com/green.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatarati. This week what happened
at COP thirty. For the last two weeks, tens of
thousands of people have taken to the city of blen
(00:22):
at the mouth of the Amazon River to take part
in the annual United Nations Climate Summit COP thirty. These
COP meetings last two weeks and involve tense negotiations among
all the world's countries. In Brazil this time, there was
a lot more than that. There were indigenous protests, daily rainstorms,
and even a fire at the COP venue. So at
(00:44):
the end of it all, what did COP thirty achieve?
That's what we are going to discuss today. And joining
me to do that is my Bloombergreen colleague Gender Louis,
who was at COP thirty till the very end and
has just come off a long night watching the negotiation.
Strap up, Jen, come back to Zero.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Thank you, Akshad. Glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So before we get into all the substantial things that
happened at COP thirty, let's start at the place where
most people were a few months ago, still talking about
logistics and the challenge of hosting a COP at the
mouth of the mighty Amazon River. How did it all go.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I think it went better than expected because months ago
we were talking about, you know, the cruise ships that
were going to be moored here to host tens of
thousands of delegates, you know, the people who would have
to live in shipping containers, the lack of infrastructure to
really support this COP. There were challenges. There was some
(01:42):
concerns about security. There were concerns about flooding in the
venue and how that might interact with wiring at the
site that was of course hastily constructed before this whole COP.
And you know, in general, I think it actually went
fairly smoothly. Delegates were able to get to the site
and do the hard work of COP. The folks on
cruise ships and there were many delegates and others on
(02:05):
cruise ships had a long haul to get.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
To the site.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
But in the end they were able to do so,
and they were able to find lodging for Saturday night
those that needed it as the talks went into overtime.
Of course, I can't not mention the fire that occurred
in the penultimate day of the official COP schedule, which
happened to add a pavilion and of course opened up
the tent that hung over all of us, and really
(02:32):
for a few minutes there looked like I was close by,
and for a few minutes there I could see the
smoke but not the flames. It looked like something that
could become very bad, very quickly, had the officials not
responded so quickly. You know, you had tons of officials
running by with their fire gear and with the extinguishers
and really quickly taking care of that. But of course it,
you know, was a difficult thing. On the penultimate day
(02:53):
of cop halting, a lot of negotiations at a tricky
time for about six hours while they inspected the venue,
got things reopened again.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, and it's been the first cup in a while
in the Southern Hemisphere in November, which means it's getting
into the hot period. And we've always thought, you know,
going to cops over the last few years, why do
they host a cop during winter and talk about global warming. Well,
this time they did feel the heat and the fire,
as it turns out, and a little bit of the flooding.
(03:23):
You know, I grew up in a city of two
million people in India, which is about the same size
of Villain, So I had like this deja vou, like
I'd been to a place like this before when I
was going through the city, but the heat in the
humidity was quite a lot. Then. The other thing about
doing this at the mouth of the Amazon was to
give delegates a flavor of what it is like to
(03:46):
be in the rainforest. You know, you and I along
with our bloomber Colley's got a little bit of that taste.
Going into an island nearby. What was that like?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Oh yeah, we had a great encounter, and many of
the delegates actually took the same trek over to an island,
you know, just a short ride away essentially from the
city of Blame, you know, where you saw obviously the
lush rainforest. We happened to see a cacao farm and
talked with the proprietors who are doing really interesting things
to not just grow cocaw, but preserve diversity in the region,
(04:18):
not just grow one species, and really deal with actually
on the ground the changing impacts, you know, the impacts
of climate change that have made their growing seasons and
the weather patterns in this region. They believe different in
their harvest, even different, they told us. Anyway, that's their perception.
But you know, it was a flavor, and it was
a moment to see a little bit of life in
(04:40):
this region. Of course, Belome is a city, it's a
relatively poor city with so many people in this region.
And yet you know, with this visit, with the rides
across the river, with even those daily thundering rainfalls, you
really just got a sense of just a little sense
of what it is like to live in a place
like this, and that I think is something that many
(05:02):
delegates from around the world wouldn't have experienced otherwise and
really drove home some of the things that we're talking
about in these negotiating rooms.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Now, let's come to the headaches that the negotiators had
to deal with these rooms. Coming into COP thirty, we
knew this was the tenth year of the anniversary of
the Paris Agreement. We knew that all the major items
under the Paris Agreement had kind of been agreed upon already,
and the Brazilian hosts had talked a little bit about
forests that they wanted to make sure, because you're coming
(05:33):
to the Amazon, that we try and figure out how
to stop deforestation, a really important thing. But beyond that,
the only main agenda item that I could think of
was that, look, countries have to submit their climate plans
for twenty thirty five. This is the cop at which
those plans will be summed up, and we will know
for sure that those plans are nowhere enough to keep
(05:54):
us on the Paris trajectory, and that Brazil and COP
thirty and its presidency will have to stand up and
make sure to show in this time of geopolitical tension,
that the world still cares about this and the world
wants to get back on the trajectory. So we'll talk
about for us, we'll talk about these climate plans. But
before we do that, were there other items that were
(06:15):
of interest to you, Jen?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yeah, absolutely, you know there were On the technical agenda,
I will just say, you know, there's this prescribed Paris
Agreement work schedule, and and those items seemed a little
tedious at times, in lackluster, and yet were of great importance.
That includes, you know, really narrowing down the indicators for
assessing climate adaptation and how we're doing, and that which
(06:39):
you know started somewhere north of one thousand at one
point and got down to under one hundred, and that's
considered a success by some.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
The global goal on adaptation as it's called.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
And then we also had some separate work both on
mitigation and adjust transition.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
There was workaround gender.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
These are all kind of in the prescribed pathways of Paris.
Like I said, there was also a clamor at the
start by some countries to talk more about trade and
what they perceive as unilateral trade measures that are slowing
the transition away from fossil fuels and raising the costs.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Well, the obvious one at that point, I would think
is Donald Trump's tariffs, but they weren't talking about Donald
Trump's tariffs on that case, right.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
You're right, this was much more you know, some folks
might have had Donald Trump's tariffs in mind, but this
was much more an assault on the EU's carbon border
adjustment mechanism, which has drawn a lot of ire from
developing nations, and it really put the EU on the
back foot and kind of defending this throughout the two weeks.
I would just note there was also obviously there's it's
(07:45):
not a COP if there's not discussion about finance, and
there was a push by some countries early on to
make sure that we discussed finance at this COP and
that it had a place on the agenda.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
There's always this talk of trade offs at COP, so
all the developing countries want to make sure that they're
going to get finance from rich countries. That caused this
problem to both cut emissions but also really to adapt
to the warming that's already occurred. And then rich countries
in response say, sure, we'll try and figure out if
(08:17):
there's any money in our pockets, but we won't give
you any money unless you actually cut emissions. And so
when it comes to looking at the gap between where
the world is going and where the world committed under
the Paras Agreement to go, that gap needed to be
filled with ways in which the climate plan could be
made ambitious. So what was Brazil's response to try and
(08:41):
bridge the gap between climate ambition of trying to keep
warming below one point five degrees celsius and the climate
plans which currently say we could be going beyond two
point five degrees celsius.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Well, I think it was actually twofold, and you saw
it right from the start when Brazil's President Lula came
to the COP it was actually two days before the
COP and made this really remarkable and surprising call for
road maps as He called them to help countries not
only transition away from fossil fuels that are the biggest
driver of global warming, but also to combat deforestation and
(09:16):
so on one level, he was trying to muster financial
support for a new tropical Forest Forever facility, a fund
to deal with deforestation. You know, it was a challenging
push and originally, you know, supporters of this were aiming
for twenty five billion dollars in support. Then they had
to reduce the goal to about ten billion dollars in
(09:37):
the end. At the end of cop they have about
six billion dollars committed, with the hope for more. Some
of those commitments are conditional on more support, but that
is an ongoing effort and something that they can still
look on as some level of success. Then you also had,
you know, this push to deliver roadmaps or set up
some kind of formal process for creating guideline for this
(10:00):
energy transition commitment that countries made two years ago in
Dubai when they said, you know, they supported a just
orderly transition away from oil, gas and coal. You know,
that's left folks two years later countries wondering, well, how
do I do that? What do I prioritize, is cole
the first thing I should be getting out of my
energy mix? Where does gas fit in? How long should
(10:22):
this take? All those questions really are are tough on
an individual level, and there was a clamor and there
has been a clamor to discuss this, to kind of
create a formal process. This roadmap, if you will. It
was announced by Lula again at the start of COP essentially,
and then Marina Silva, Brazil's environment minister, made an impassioned
plea a week later, kind of echoing this call. And
(10:44):
what's interesting is over the two weeks you just saw
this thing snowball. You had, you know, Columbia lead its
own declaration for road maps, UK and the EU also
got involved trying to push this through. You know, for
a COP that was was really starting on some more
routine items and had far less negotiation. It ended up being,
(11:05):
you know, a pretty all consuming and defining work over
the course of two weeks.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
And as you and our colleague John Anger and Fabiano
Maisinavi followed in the last couple of days, like the
very tense moments when this kind of negotiation brings the
big powers to head, we know what happened in the end,
but how did it all play out.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
It was really quite fascinating because you saw countries, particularly
the UK and the EU.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Being willing to draw a red line on this issue.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
You know, they wanted to see some more ambition reflected
in the actual text. And again this reflects that discontent
and frustration with the looming gap between what needs to
be done to keep temperature rise and check whether it's
two degrees or one point five and what is actually
being done and what is committed. And so you saw
that frustration born out in these final hours, really the
(11:58):
last day and a half of the COP where these countries,
some of them said, you know, this is a red
line for us. We are willing to veto this final
text if we don't get some more ambition. You also
had pushback from Saudi Arabia, Russia and other countries behind
closed doors that created complications around this. At the very
(12:18):
really the final hours of the COP there was some
kind of compromise negotiated. It's far from what roadmap supporters want,
but it creates a pathway to that outcome, which is
to say that the final text included a reference back
to countries implementing NDCs, or rather Climate and Carbon cutting
(12:38):
pledges under the Paris Agreement that reflect the Dubai Agreement
to Transition away from fossil fuels, and then a separate
presidency initiative where over the next year there will be
work by the Brazilian COP thirty presidency to address road
maps on forestation and on fossil fuels.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
It is often said that what happens at cops because
they are run by consensus and all parties have to agree,
all countries have to agree, what we get is the
lowest common denominator of what everybody can agree on. And
it did feel like, you know, this roadmap to transition
away from fossil fuels came quite last minute for how
(13:17):
things happened. You know, a prior example I would have
is maybe COP twenty six, where the UK presidency was
very keen on trying to finally get a mention of
fossil fuels at a COP meeting in the final declaration
and started to talk about, you know, moving away from coal,
which the UK itself was doing a phenomenal job at,
(13:38):
but trying to get all the rest of the world
to agree on it, and it started to do that
like months in advance, nine months in advance, it was
getting people and getting countries to be open to the
idea of transitioning away from coal, whereas the COP thirty
presidency it felt like it was a bit too late, right.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
And actually your example is perfect because you know, you
did have that sex tesful inclusion of language around coal
at the COP in Glasgow, but that discussion around fossil
fuels didn't lead to a broader fossil fuel declaration or commitment.
We didn't see that for two more years until Dubai.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And in the process of these cops, it does feel
very much like not only do you need to do
your homework early and try to set the stage for agreements,
which you know didn't really happen here with the roadmap,
but it also is something that can take years and
years to get this text into you know, final agreements.
You have to kind of build the support. Lula's call
surprised a lot of people, and it was two days
(14:35):
before the COP began. We got to a remarkable place
in two weeks, and of course the presidency is I
think hoping that they can get this to a place
where it becomes on the table for next year.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Join us after the break for more of my conversation
with Jender Louis about what happened at COP thirty and
if you're enjoying zero, write a review on Apple Podcasts
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these podcasts regularly lift my mood on climate change challenges, clever, fun, hopeful,
but also pragmatic. Thank you, dear listener. You typically in
(15:29):
the very last moments of the cop require the big powers.
I've been there in the past four cops on the
very last day, and I've always seen like the US
negotiator meeting with the EU negotiator, and then India hurdling
with other lease developed countries, or Saudi Arabia coming in
(15:49):
having agree words with the EU negotiator. What was the
scene like in the last last hours of Cop thirty?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
In the very final hours the actual plenary, we actually
had fewer huddles than I think I've seen in the
five years I've been covering cops, mostly because the outcome
at that point had been kind of pre negotiated. Around
six am, seven am, and that final plenary was about
four or five hours later. But you know, you couldn't
escape the absence of some big folks. You didn't have
(16:22):
the US there. Obviously, President Donald Trump has made no
secret of his disdain not only for the notion of
climate change, but the whole apparatus for combating it. He
calls it a scam, a great hoax, you know, And
he didn't send anybody down to this conference, not even
the lowliest of negotiators, and so that was pervasive. You
felt that in the room, the lack of the US.
(16:43):
After the US has in the past worked with the
EU and with China to forge not only the Paris
Agreement but some other landmarks along the way.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
But some saw that as a relief. Given what the
US had just done a month ago at the International
Maritime Organization by throwing its weight around to try and
delay this vote on a global contact on shipping, the
absence of the US in this case seemed like a blessing.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
No, you absolutely had that sense from some delegates, some
of the US officials that came to the conference to
kind of show, you know, we're all still in it
in America. They said the same thing that you know,
we're embarrassed that the US government isn't here, but it's
probably a good thing given the way things went down
at the IMO and given the president's commitment to kind
(17:31):
of tearing down some of these institutions.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
But this absence of the US not being around to
actually push China to be more ambitious kind of played out, right,
you know, there was this hope that with the US gone,
there's this void in leadership that's been created. You know,
EU would typically come into it, but this time the
EU has a bunch of far right parties that are
rising across its governments. They had to fight last minute
(17:56):
before COPP to actually get their climate plan approved that
it's not the EU, is that it's China that's going
to rise up to the leadership rule. But that also
didn't happen, right.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, it was kind of remarkable because we did have
those expectations going in. To be sure, we saw the
EU kind of push on mitigation, but you didn't have
what a lot of folks were predicting, which was the
EU working with China in the way that the US
used to work with China to create pathways to deals
at this COP. So not only was the EU kind
(18:29):
of not really stepping up in a big broad way
in the absence.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Of the US.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
China also kind of kept its head low. I mean,
they had this very splashy pavilion, you couldn't miss it.
At the entrance to the COP they handed out you know,
pandas and like panda ear headbands that were really a
hot ticket for some of the delegates based on what
I could see of the clamor to get them in
the mornings, you know, and they mounted really engaging and
well attended dialogues and forums on the sidelines of COP,
(18:55):
but in the COP negotiating rooms they had a lower profile.
And you know, I think that reflects the concern really
with trade measures, with Donald Trump's tariffs with you know,
some of the things that they see as barriers to
clean energy trade, to the sale and export of the
wind turbines, the solar panels, the battery tech, the evs
that they are producing in such a large number, and
(19:17):
so that seemed to be a higher priority for them
than actually stepping up in a very big and visible
way to land a bigger deal.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
The other thing that people were looking out for in
this COP was the presence of protesters. It is something
that typically climate conferences have plenty of but we just
have been to have three conferences prior to this one
in authoritarian regimes and protests were really far to come by.
(19:46):
The last big protests had happened in Glasgow in the UK.
This time around, there were huge protests. You saw many
of them inside the blue zone, which was a rare
treat for us as climate reporters. How much difference do
you think the protesters meet.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah, I'd say we do normally see protest inside the
blue zone, but they're in these smaller areas they have
to adhere to, you know, rules of decorum that are
established by the UN and this body. And what you
saw at this cop was was, you know, just a
flow of protesters through the city at the cop venue
outside and indeed in the blue zone, and you just
couldn't escape it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
You know.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
I wasn't outside in the streets the day the big
march happened through the city of blem but I couldn't
escape it. I heard it before I left my hotel
room in the morning. I heard it at the site.
Those calls for action were played on videos inside the facility.
You just couldn't escape it. And I would just say
that you know, it was everywhere, and it was a
visible reminder of kind of the human element of this
(20:45):
in a way that we, really, like you said, have
not seen at the most recent cops, indigenous people's, religious activists,
you know, any assortment of people who care. You know,
they were among the tens of thousands that took to
the streets to kind of push this roadmap idea and
help add fuel to that effort. And then you also
just had Indigenous people walking through the venue and joining
(21:06):
some of this activism. At one point they were activists
to storm the venue site one evening, and that also
brought it home right that this was a cop in
the Amazon in the presence of Indigenous people who bear
a lot of the weight of climate change that they
had no role in creating.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
And we saw this passion from the protests, one because
they were allowed to protest, which is great, but also
because there is this frustration with cops and it kind
of came to a boil by saying, this gap continues
to be huge between where we need to go and
where we are going, and cops talk a lot, which
(21:46):
is necessary, but they don't do very much. And so
for the past few years we've been hearing this idea
that cops should become implementation cops, and under Korea the Lago.
The COP president was also keen on it. You know,
just days before the COP began, when I got a
chance to interview him, Sapolo that he would like to
(22:07):
make this an implementation COP. Did that happen?
Speaker 3 (22:10):
I think you can say that this was the first
real implementation COP, even though it falls well short of
course of what needs to be done. But you know,
the the nuts and bolts of implementing the Paris Agreements,
Marquee Promise, as well as everything that's come from it,
we're discussed in deeper ways than I've certainly seen in
(22:34):
five years of covering cops. You had a lot more
attention to what the Brazilian presidency called the Action Agenda,
which really is about taking these diplomatic words and turning
them into action on the ground. You know, it felt
much more real and much more tangible. It is still
a place forum for discussion at the highest levels for
(22:56):
climate diplomacy, and yet you did see this substance of
work and discussion around you know, really making these changes
that need to happen on the ground.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Cops happen every year, and you know, sometimes what happened
at one cop can kind of bleed into the other one.
Was it twenty seven? Was it twenty nine? Save from
five years now, you're covering Cop thirty five. What is
Cop thirty going to be remembered for.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I think Cop thirty will be remembered.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Oh I hate to say it, but as much, if
not more, for where it happens, for this rainforest setting,
you know, for being in Brazil in a challenging but
very real location than the actual deliverables then the actual
Muterrau decision. I don't want to tell the Brazilian presidency that,
but maybe actually that's That's exactly what President Lula.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Wanted, right.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
He wanted to draw attention to the Amazon, to the rainforest,
to the lungs of the world. And I suppose in
that Cop thirty was a success and actuat if you're
judging COP thirty five years from now, what are you
going to think about?
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Well, I missed the very end of COP so you know,
I missed the fire, I missed the tension, But I
will remember it for the atmospherics too. I mean, I've
never been close to a rainforest and experiencing that daily
deluge that happened in the afternoon was stunning to me.
(24:24):
But substantially, I think Cop thirty made me really reflect
on what is the value of COP. You know, we're
going into the tenth anniversary of the Paris Agreement, and
the conversations were getting harder to have about what is
this process delivering on the outcomes? And if, as Andre
(24:45):
told us, if we do not remember this COP for
making any difference to that trajectory, that would be the
real failure of this COP. But before we end the show,
we do have to talk about the next COP, because
there will be one next year and the year after.
And in typical fashion, you know, countries kind of know
(25:05):
that they're going to host the COP. They convinced the
other people in their membership group to let them do this.
But for next year's COP, there was an actual fight
happening here in Cop thirty.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
That's absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
It was a fight that actually caught a lot of
attention over the course of the two weeks. So, you know,
you have the substance of the COP where everyone's deliberating
over the important you know, language around climate mitigation, but
you had this other almost side show you know that
unfolded over the course of about a week and a
half where Turkey was essentially challenging what had for a
(25:37):
while been perceived as Australia's bid to win the COP
presidency next year. Ultimately, you know, it came down to,
as so many of these things in COP do, a compromise,
but quite an unusual one where Turkey and Talia. Turkey
will end up being the physical host of next year's
COP thirty one and Australia will serve as president for
(26:01):
purposes of negotiations, you know, leading the agenda, working on text,
really working to land some kind of outcome. It's an
unusual split. We'll see how it plays out, but it's
a reminder that nothing at COPS is easy, even picking
where they should be.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Well.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Luckily, if you do know that COP thirty two, which
is a year after, will be in Ethiopia in Addis Ababa,
and they were confirmed too at this COP, so at
least we are not looking at another fight for the
next Cup. Jen, it's always a pleasure to talk to you,
always a pleasure to cover COPS with you, and I
look forward to covering the next.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
COUP absolutely thanks at shat.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Thank you for listening to zero. Find all of Bloomberg
Green's coverage from Cop thirty at Bloomberg dot com, Forward
slash Green. If you liked this episode, please take a
moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts
and Spotify. This episode was produced by Oscar Our. Theme
music is composed by Wonderly Special. Thanks to the Cop
thirty team Amanda Hurley, Simon Casey, John Ainger, Gendiluis Fabiano
(27:09):
maisanab Daniel Carvallo, Vanessa Desim and Diani Susa. Thanks also
to Anamazarakis, Samersadi, Moses Andem, Laura Milan, and Sharon chan
I am Akshatrati. Back soon,
Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatarati. This week what happened
at COP thirty. For the last two weeks, tens of
thousands of people have taken to the city of blen
(00:22):
at the mouth of the Amazon River to take part
in the annual United Nations Climate Summit COP thirty. These
COP meetings last two weeks and involve tense negotiations among
all the world's countries. In Brazil this time, there was
a lot more than that. There were indigenous protests, daily rainstorms,
and even a fire at the COP venue. So at
(00:44):
the end of it all, what did COP thirty achieve?
That's what we are going to discuss today. And joining
me to do that is my Bloombergreen colleague Gender Louis,
who was at COP thirty till the very end and
has just come off a long night watching the negotiation.
Strap up, Jen, come back to Zero.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Thank you, Akshad. Glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So before we get into all the substantial things that
happened at COP thirty, let's start at the place where
most people were a few months ago, still talking about
logistics and the challenge of hosting a COP at the
mouth of the mighty Amazon River. How did it all go.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I think it went better than expected because months ago
we were talking about, you know, the cruise ships that
were going to be moored here to host tens of
thousands of delegates, you know, the people who would have
to live in shipping containers, the lack of infrastructure to
really support this COP. There were challenges. There was some
(01:42):
concerns about security. There were concerns about flooding in the
venue and how that might interact with wiring at the
site that was of course hastily constructed before this whole COP.
And you know, in general, I think it actually went
fairly smoothly. Delegates were able to get to the site
and do the hard work of COP. The folks on
cruise ships and there were many delegates and others on
(02:05):
cruise ships had a long haul to get.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
To the site.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
But in the end they were able to do so,
and they were able to find lodging for Saturday night
those that needed it as the talks went into overtime.
Of course, I can't not mention the fire that occurred
in the penultimate day of the official COP schedule, which
happened to add a pavilion and of course opened up
the tent that hung over all of us, and really
(02:32):
for a few minutes there looked like I was close by,
and for a few minutes there I could see the
smoke but not the flames. It looked like something that
could become very bad, very quickly, had the officials not
responded so quickly. You know, you had tons of officials
running by with their fire gear and with the extinguishers
and really quickly taking care of that. But of course it,
you know, was a difficult thing. On the penultimate day
(02:53):
of cop halting, a lot of negotiations at a tricky
time for about six hours while they inspected the venue,
got things reopened again.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, and it's been the first cup in a while
in the Southern Hemisphere in November, which means it's getting
into the hot period. And we've always thought, you know,
going to cops over the last few years, why do
they host a cop during winter and talk about global warming. Well,
this time they did feel the heat and the fire,
as it turns out, and a little bit of the flooding.
(03:23):
You know, I grew up in a city of two
million people in India, which is about the same size
of Villain, So I had like this deja vou, like
I'd been to a place like this before when I
was going through the city, but the heat in the
humidity was quite a lot. Then. The other thing about
doing this at the mouth of the Amazon was to
give delegates a flavor of what it is like to
(03:46):
be in the rainforest. You know, you and I along
with our bloomber Colley's got a little bit of that taste.
Going into an island nearby. What was that like?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Oh yeah, we had a great encounter, and many of
the delegates actually took the same trek over to an island,
you know, just a short ride away essentially from the
city of Blame, you know, where you saw obviously the
lush rainforest. We happened to see a cacao farm and
talked with the proprietors who are doing really interesting things
to not just grow cocaw, but preserve diversity in the region,
(04:18):
not just grow one species, and really deal with actually
on the ground the changing impacts, you know, the impacts
of climate change that have made their growing seasons and
the weather patterns in this region. They believe different in
their harvest, even different, they told us. Anyway, that's their perception.
But you know, it was a flavor, and it was
a moment to see a little bit of life in
(04:40):
this region. Of course, Belome is a city, it's a
relatively poor city with so many people in this region.
And yet you know, with this visit, with the rides
across the river, with even those daily thundering rainfalls, you
really just got a sense of just a little sense
of what it is like to live in a place
like this, and that I think is something that many
(05:02):
delegates from around the world wouldn't have experienced otherwise and
really drove home some of the things that we're talking
about in these negotiating rooms.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Now, let's come to the headaches that the negotiators had
to deal with these rooms. Coming into COP thirty, we
knew this was the tenth year of the anniversary of
the Paris Agreement. We knew that all the major items
under the Paris Agreement had kind of been agreed upon already,
and the Brazilian hosts had talked a little bit about
forests that they wanted to make sure, because you're coming
(05:33):
to the Amazon, that we try and figure out how
to stop deforestation, a really important thing. But beyond that,
the only main agenda item that I could think of
was that, look, countries have to submit their climate plans
for twenty thirty five. This is the cop at which
those plans will be summed up, and we will know
for sure that those plans are nowhere enough to keep
(05:54):
us on the Paris trajectory, and that Brazil and COP
thirty and its presidency will have to stand up and
make sure to show in this time of geopolitical tension,
that the world still cares about this and the world
wants to get back on the trajectory. So we'll talk
about for us, we'll talk about these climate plans. But
before we do that, were there other items that were
(06:15):
of interest to you, Jen?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yeah, absolutely, you know there were On the technical agenda,
I will just say, you know, there's this prescribed Paris
Agreement work schedule, and and those items seemed a little
tedious at times, in lackluster, and yet were of great importance.
That includes, you know, really narrowing down the indicators for
assessing climate adaptation and how we're doing, and that which
(06:39):
you know started somewhere north of one thousand at one
point and got down to under one hundred, and that's
considered a success by some.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
The global goal on adaptation as it's called.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
And then we also had some separate work both on
mitigation and adjust transition.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
There was workaround gender.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
These are all kind of in the prescribed pathways of Paris.
Like I said, there was also a clamor at the
start by some countries to talk more about trade and
what they perceive as unilateral trade measures that are slowing
the transition away from fossil fuels and raising the costs.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Well, the obvious one at that point, I would think
is Donald Trump's tariffs, but they weren't talking about Donald
Trump's tariffs on that case, right.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
You're right, this was much more you know, some folks
might have had Donald Trump's tariffs in mind, but this
was much more an assault on the EU's carbon border
adjustment mechanism, which has drawn a lot of ire from
developing nations, and it really put the EU on the
back foot and kind of defending this throughout the two weeks.
I would just note there was also obviously there's it's
(07:45):
not a COP if there's not discussion about finance, and
there was a push by some countries early on to
make sure that we discussed finance at this COP and
that it had a place on the agenda.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
There's always this talk of trade offs at COP, so
all the developing countries want to make sure that they're
going to get finance from rich countries. That caused this
problem to both cut emissions but also really to adapt
to the warming that's already occurred. And then rich countries
in response say, sure, we'll try and figure out if
(08:17):
there's any money in our pockets, but we won't give
you any money unless you actually cut emissions. And so
when it comes to looking at the gap between where
the world is going and where the world committed under
the Paras Agreement to go, that gap needed to be
filled with ways in which the climate plan could be
made ambitious. So what was Brazil's response to try and
(08:41):
bridge the gap between climate ambition of trying to keep
warming below one point five degrees celsius and the climate
plans which currently say we could be going beyond two
point five degrees celsius.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Well, I think it was actually twofold, and you saw
it right from the start when Brazil's President Lula came
to the COP it was actually two days before the
COP and made this really remarkable and surprising call for
road maps as He called them to help countries not
only transition away from fossil fuels that are the biggest
driver of global warming, but also to combat deforestation and
(09:16):
so on one level, he was trying to muster financial
support for a new tropical Forest Forever facility, a fund
to deal with deforestation. You know, it was a challenging
push and originally, you know, supporters of this were aiming
for twenty five billion dollars in support. Then they had
to reduce the goal to about ten billion dollars in
(09:37):
the end. At the end of cop they have about
six billion dollars committed, with the hope for more. Some
of those commitments are conditional on more support, but that
is an ongoing effort and something that they can still
look on as some level of success. Then you also had,
you know, this push to deliver roadmaps or set up
some kind of formal process for creating guideline for this
(10:00):
energy transition commitment that countries made two years ago in
Dubai when they said, you know, they supported a just
orderly transition away from oil, gas and coal. You know,
that's left folks two years later countries wondering, well, how
do I do that? What do I prioritize, is cole
the first thing I should be getting out of my
energy mix? Where does gas fit in? How long should
(10:22):
this take? All those questions really are are tough on
an individual level, and there was a clamor and there
has been a clamor to discuss this, to kind of
create a formal process. This roadmap, if you will. It
was announced by Lula again at the start of COP essentially,
and then Marina Silva, Brazil's environment minister, made an impassioned
plea a week later, kind of echoing this call. And
(10:44):
what's interesting is over the two weeks you just saw
this thing snowball. You had, you know, Columbia lead its
own declaration for road maps, UK and the EU also
got involved trying to push this through. You know, for
a COP that was was really starting on some more
routine items and had far less negotiation. It ended up being,
(11:05):
you know, a pretty all consuming and defining work over
the course of two weeks.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
And as you and our colleague John Anger and Fabiano
Maisinavi followed in the last couple of days, like the
very tense moments when this kind of negotiation brings the
big powers to head, we know what happened in the end,
but how did it all play out.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
It was really quite fascinating because you saw countries, particularly
the UK and the EU.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Being willing to draw a red line on this issue.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
You know, they wanted to see some more ambition reflected
in the actual text. And again this reflects that discontent
and frustration with the looming gap between what needs to
be done to keep temperature rise and check whether it's
two degrees or one point five and what is actually
being done and what is committed. And so you saw
that frustration born out in these final hours, really the
(11:58):
last day and a half of the COP where these countries,
some of them said, you know, this is a red
line for us. We are willing to veto this final
text if we don't get some more ambition. You also
had pushback from Saudi Arabia, Russia and other countries behind
closed doors that created complications around this. At the very
(12:18):
really the final hours of the COP there was some
kind of compromise negotiated. It's far from what roadmap supporters want,
but it creates a pathway to that outcome, which is
to say that the final text included a reference back
to countries implementing NDCs, or rather Climate and Carbon cutting
(12:38):
pledges under the Paris Agreement that reflect the Dubai Agreement
to Transition away from fossil fuels, and then a separate
presidency initiative where over the next year there will be
work by the Brazilian COP thirty presidency to address road
maps on forestation and on fossil fuels.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
It is often said that what happens at cops because
they are run by consensus and all parties have to agree,
all countries have to agree, what we get is the
lowest common denominator of what everybody can agree on. And
it did feel like, you know, this roadmap to transition
away from fossil fuels came quite last minute for how
(13:17):
things happened. You know, a prior example I would have
is maybe COP twenty six, where the UK presidency was
very keen on trying to finally get a mention of
fossil fuels at a COP meeting in the final declaration
and started to talk about, you know, moving away from coal,
which the UK itself was doing a phenomenal job at,
(13:38):
but trying to get all the rest of the world
to agree on it, and it started to do that
like months in advance, nine months in advance, it was
getting people and getting countries to be open to the
idea of transitioning away from coal, whereas the COP thirty
presidency it felt like it was a bit too late, right.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
And actually your example is perfect because you know, you
did have that sex tesful inclusion of language around coal
at the COP in Glasgow, but that discussion around fossil
fuels didn't lead to a broader fossil fuel declaration or commitment.
We didn't see that for two more years until Dubai.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And in the process of these cops, it does feel
very much like not only do you need to do
your homework early and try to set the stage for agreements,
which you know didn't really happen here with the roadmap,
but it also is something that can take years and
years to get this text into you know, final agreements.
You have to kind of build the support. Lula's call
surprised a lot of people, and it was two days
(14:35):
before the COP began. We got to a remarkable place
in two weeks, and of course the presidency is I
think hoping that they can get this to a place
where it becomes on the table for next year.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Join us after the break for more of my conversation
with Jender Louis about what happened at COP thirty and
if you're enjoying zero, write a review on Apple Podcasts
and Spotify. Recently, a listener with an unpronounceable name wrote,
these podcasts regularly lift my mood on climate change challenges, clever, fun, hopeful,
but also pragmatic. Thank you, dear listener. You typically in
(15:29):
the very last moments of the cop require the big powers.
I've been there in the past four cops on the
very last day, and I've always seen like the US
negotiator meeting with the EU negotiator, and then India hurdling
with other lease developed countries, or Saudi Arabia coming in
(15:49):
having agree words with the EU negotiator. What was the
scene like in the last last hours of Cop thirty?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
In the very final hours the actual plenary, we actually
had fewer huddles than I think I've seen in the
five years I've been covering cops, mostly because the outcome
at that point had been kind of pre negotiated. Around
six am, seven am, and that final plenary was about
four or five hours later. But you know, you couldn't
escape the absence of some big folks. You didn't have
(16:22):
the US there. Obviously, President Donald Trump has made no
secret of his disdain not only for the notion of
climate change, but the whole apparatus for combating it. He
calls it a scam, a great hoax, you know, And
he didn't send anybody down to this conference, not even
the lowliest of negotiators, and so that was pervasive. You
felt that in the room, the lack of the US.
(16:43):
After the US has in the past worked with the
EU and with China to forge not only the Paris
Agreement but some other landmarks along the way.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
But some saw that as a relief. Given what the
US had just done a month ago at the International
Maritime Organization by throwing its weight around to try and
delay this vote on a global contact on shipping, the
absence of the US in this case seemed like a blessing.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
No, you absolutely had that sense from some delegates, some
of the US officials that came to the conference to
kind of show, you know, we're all still in it
in America. They said the same thing that you know,
we're embarrassed that the US government isn't here, but it's
probably a good thing given the way things went down
at the IMO and given the president's commitment to kind
(17:31):
of tearing down some of these institutions.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
But this absence of the US not being around to
actually push China to be more ambitious kind of played out, right,
you know, there was this hope that with the US gone,
there's this void in leadership that's been created. You know,
EU would typically come into it, but this time the
EU has a bunch of far right parties that are
rising across its governments. They had to fight last minute
(17:56):
before COPP to actually get their climate plan approved that
it's not the EU, is that it's China that's going
to rise up to the leadership rule. But that also
didn't happen, right.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, it was kind of remarkable because we did have
those expectations going in. To be sure, we saw the
EU kind of push on mitigation, but you didn't have
what a lot of folks were predicting, which was the
EU working with China in the way that the US
used to work with China to create pathways to deals
at this COP. So not only was the EU kind
(18:29):
of not really stepping up in a big broad way
in the absence.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Of the US.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
China also kind of kept its head low. I mean,
they had this very splashy pavilion, you couldn't miss it.
At the entrance to the COP they handed out you know,
pandas and like panda ear headbands that were really a
hot ticket for some of the delegates based on what
I could see of the clamor to get them in
the mornings, you know, and they mounted really engaging and
well attended dialogues and forums on the sidelines of COP,
(18:55):
but in the COP negotiating rooms they had a lower profile.
And you know, I think that reflects the concern really
with trade measures, with Donald Trump's tariffs with you know,
some of the things that they see as barriers to
clean energy trade, to the sale and export of the
wind turbines, the solar panels, the battery tech, the evs
that they are producing in such a large number, and
(19:17):
so that seemed to be a higher priority for them
than actually stepping up in a very big and visible
way to land a bigger deal.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
The other thing that people were looking out for in
this COP was the presence of protesters. It is something
that typically climate conferences have plenty of but we just
have been to have three conferences prior to this one
in authoritarian regimes and protests were really far to come by.
(19:46):
The last big protests had happened in Glasgow in the UK.
This time around, there were huge protests. You saw many
of them inside the blue zone, which was a rare
treat for us as climate reporters. How much difference do
you think the protesters meet.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah, I'd say we do normally see protest inside the
blue zone, but they're in these smaller areas they have
to adhere to, you know, rules of decorum that are
established by the UN and this body. And what you
saw at this cop was was, you know, just a
flow of protesters through the city at the cop venue
outside and indeed in the blue zone, and you just
couldn't escape it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
You know.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
I wasn't outside in the streets the day the big
march happened through the city of blem but I couldn't
escape it. I heard it before I left my hotel
room in the morning. I heard it at the site.
Those calls for action were played on videos inside the facility.
You just couldn't escape it. And I would just say
that you know, it was everywhere, and it was a
visible reminder of kind of the human element of this
(20:45):
in a way that we, really, like you said, have
not seen at the most recent cops, indigenous people's, religious activists,
you know, any assortment of people who care. You know,
they were among the tens of thousands that took to
the streets to kind of push this roadmap idea and
help add fuel to that effort. And then you also
just had Indigenous people walking through the venue and joining
(21:06):
some of this activism. At one point they were activists
to storm the venue site one evening, and that also
brought it home right that this was a cop in
the Amazon in the presence of Indigenous people who bear
a lot of the weight of climate change that they
had no role in creating.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
And we saw this passion from the protests, one because
they were allowed to protest, which is great, but also
because there is this frustration with cops and it kind
of came to a boil by saying, this gap continues
to be huge between where we need to go and
where we are going, and cops talk a lot, which
(21:46):
is necessary, but they don't do very much. And so
for the past few years we've been hearing this idea
that cops should become implementation cops, and under Korea the Lago.
The COP president was also keen on it. You know,
just days before the COP began, when I got a
chance to interview him, Sapolo that he would like to
(22:07):
make this an implementation COP. Did that happen?
Speaker 3 (22:10):
I think you can say that this was the first
real implementation COP, even though it falls well short of
course of what needs to be done. But you know,
the the nuts and bolts of implementing the Paris Agreements,
Marquee Promise, as well as everything that's come from it,
we're discussed in deeper ways than I've certainly seen in
(22:34):
five years of covering cops. You had a lot more
attention to what the Brazilian presidency called the Action Agenda,
which really is about taking these diplomatic words and turning
them into action on the ground. You know, it felt
much more real and much more tangible. It is still
a place forum for discussion at the highest levels for
(22:56):
climate diplomacy, and yet you did see this substance of
work and discussion around you know, really making these changes
that need to happen on the ground.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Cops happen every year, and you know, sometimes what happened
at one cop can kind of bleed into the other one.
Was it twenty seven? Was it twenty nine? Save from
five years now, you're covering Cop thirty five. What is
Cop thirty going to be remembered for.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I think Cop thirty will be remembered.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Oh I hate to say it, but as much, if
not more, for where it happens, for this rainforest setting,
you know, for being in Brazil in a challenging but
very real location than the actual deliverables then the actual
Muterrau decision. I don't want to tell the Brazilian presidency that,
but maybe actually that's That's exactly what President Lula.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Wanted, right.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
He wanted to draw attention to the Amazon, to the rainforest,
to the lungs of the world. And I suppose in
that Cop thirty was a success and actuat if you're
judging COP thirty five years from now, what are you
going to think about?
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Well, I missed the very end of COP so you know,
I missed the fire, I missed the tension, But I
will remember it for the atmospherics too. I mean, I've
never been close to a rainforest and experiencing that daily
deluge that happened in the afternoon was stunning to me.
(24:24):
But substantially, I think Cop thirty made me really reflect
on what is the value of COP. You know, we're
going into the tenth anniversary of the Paris Agreement, and
the conversations were getting harder to have about what is
this process delivering on the outcomes? And if, as Andre
(24:45):
told us, if we do not remember this COP for
making any difference to that trajectory, that would be the
real failure of this COP. But before we end the show,
we do have to talk about the next COP, because
there will be one next year and the year after.
And in typical fashion, you know, countries kind of know
(25:05):
that they're going to host the COP. They convinced the
other people in their membership group to let them do this.
But for next year's COP, there was an actual fight
happening here in Cop thirty.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
That's absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
It was a fight that actually caught a lot of
attention over the course of the two weeks. So, you know,
you have the substance of the COP where everyone's deliberating
over the important you know, language around climate mitigation, but
you had this other almost side show you know that
unfolded over the course of about a week and a
half where Turkey was essentially challenging what had for a
(25:37):
while been perceived as Australia's bid to win the COP
presidency next year. Ultimately, you know, it came down to,
as so many of these things in COP do, a compromise,
but quite an unusual one where Turkey and Talia. Turkey
will end up being the physical host of next year's
COP thirty one and Australia will serve as president for
(26:01):
purposes of negotiations, you know, leading the agenda, working on text,
really working to land some kind of outcome. It's an
unusual split. We'll see how it plays out, but it's
a reminder that nothing at COPS is easy, even picking
where they should be.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Well.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Luckily, if you do know that COP thirty two, which
is a year after, will be in Ethiopia in Addis Ababa,
and they were confirmed too at this COP, so at
least we are not looking at another fight for the
next Cup. Jen, it's always a pleasure to talk to you,
always a pleasure to cover COPS with you, and I
look forward to covering the next.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
COUP absolutely thanks at shat.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Thank you for listening to zero. Find all of Bloomberg
Green's coverage from Cop thirty at Bloomberg dot com, Forward
slash Green. If you liked this episode, please take a
moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts
and Spotify. This episode was produced by Oscar Our. Theme
music is composed by Wonderly Special. Thanks to the Cop
thirty team Amanda Hurley, Simon Casey, John Ainger, Gendiluis Fabiano
(27:09):
maisanab Daniel Carvallo, Vanessa Desim and Diani Susa. Thanks also
to Anamazarakis, Samersadi, Moses Andem, Laura Milan, and Sharon chan
I am Akshatrati. Back soon,
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