June 25, 2024 • 25 mins
Earlier this month, tech billionaire Bill Gates broke ground on a new nuclear plant in Kemmerer, Wyoming– a historic coal town. Gates tells Zero why he hopes the plant, which uses sodium for cooling, rather than water, will be the first of many in the country– no matter who wins this year’s election. “The idea of the US being more energy secure and US innovation allowing us to export, those things are still somewhat bipartisan in nature,” he says. Plus, he weighs in on AI as both a major generator of emissions and as a potential source of climate solutions.
Explore further:
- Past episode with BNEF’s Claire Curry on how energy startups can dodge the valley of death
- Past episode with Brookfield Asset Management CCEO Connor Teskey on making renewables a profitable bet
- Past episode with Bill Gates on the significance of the Inflation Reduction Act
Zero is a production of Bloomberg Green. Our producer is Mythili Rao. Special thanks this week to Kira Bindrim, Kate Evans, and Alicia Clanton. Thoughts or suggestions? Email us at zeropod@bloomberg.net. For more coverage of climate change and solutions, visit https://www.bloomberg.com/green.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Zero. I am Aksha Trati. This week Bill Gates,
Nuclear Power and Donald Trump. Hi atua hi miily.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I am not Bill Gates.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I can tell it's a bummer.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I am the producer of Zero. We had a busy
couple of days and I thought listeners might want to
know that this conversation with Bill Gates was recorded in
Stratford upon Avon, of all places, where we were in
town to see the opening night of a new play
about climate change put on by the Royal Shakespeare Company.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
And the play is called Kyoto, and it is a
play about international climate negotiations. Things that I've attended. They
have drama, but I never thought somebody could make a
play about it. So I was very excited to see
what they've done, and we'll be bringing a review very soon.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
But you were also very excited to talk to Bill Gates,
so excited that we missed the first ten minutes of
the play while the kind folks at the Royal Shakespeare
Company found a quiet place to record a conversation with Bill.
Why were you so excited to talk to him?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Bill Gates isn't just one of the richest people on
the planet. He's also somebody who takes climate change quite seriously.
He's been thinking about it for nearly two decades, and
he's investing serious sums of money in technology development. And
so given we're in the hottest year, given climate technologies
aren't scaling as quickly as we would want them to,
(01:35):
it's always nice to hear how he's thinking about this moment,
both from a technology perspective and how the politics of
this year, where there are so many elections happening, will
shape the future.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
And he's been in the news the last couple of
weeks because of a new nuclear plant that he broke
ground in in Camera, Wyoming. I was interested in this
because it's a tiny historical town population less than three
thousand people. The coal plant there is due to close
in twenty thirty six. I've been reading about it and
they're very excited that Bill Gates is coming to open
(02:11):
this new nuclear plant with his company, Terra Power. But
it's also notable because of the design of the plant.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Right, that's right. Among the very first investments that Bill
Gates made as he got into investing in climate was
founding this company called Terra Power. It was founded in
two thousand and eight and His goal was to try
and develop a new type of reactor to overcome the
problems of the previous generation of reactors that used water
(02:39):
as a way to cool and that required very complex
engineering to try and deal with what happens to water
when you heat it in an enclosed space. There's a
lot of heat and a lot of pressure involved, and
to try and deal with the safety issues that came along.
The design of previous reactors just became more and more complex.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
So what's the approach that this plant is taking. Instead
of using water.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
In this case, they use sodium, which means that the
engineering challenge becomes easier to deal with. And if he's
able to build many, many of the sodium reactors, he'll
also be able to make them more cheaply than the
current class of reactors. So, in an ideal world, if
Terra Power succeeds, nuclear power could become cheaper and safer,
(03:34):
and that would be a boost for the climate technology
set that we have.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
This is a long time coming for Bill Gates and
for terror Power, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Very much so? Founded in two thousand and eight? And
if all the things go as he hopes they would,
the plant won't be ready until twenty thirty. Initially, they
couldn't get the regulatory approvals they wanted in the US,
so they started exploring an option to building China. Then
under the previous Donald Trump administration, the US government blocked
(04:06):
that from happening because they didn't want technology transferred to
happen to China, and so then they started exploring an
option to do it in the US. And now they
do have a site, but they still do not have
the regulatory approvals needed to build that plant.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
So it's an exciting moment for Bill Gates and something
that you wanted to talk to him about. You said,
he is one of the few billionaires who's really engaged
with questions about climate change. Where did these plans with
teara power and nuclear energy fit into his broader thinking
about the energy transition?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
So Bill Gates's one line answer to any big problem
is innovation, and he's been thinking a lot about how
bringing new technologies to bear on the problem will make
it easier to solve those problems. He also acknowledges that's
not the only route. We do need a lot of policies, etc.
But his focus is very much on creating the solution
(05:04):
set we need, and that's what he's doing with Breakthrough
Energy Ventures, which now has funds that are more than
three billion dollars worth that are all focused on investing
in climate technologies.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And we'll be going to the Breakthrough Energy Summit soon
and recording with some of those companies and bringing zero
listeners those conversations later this summer. But first let's hear
your conversation with Bill Gates.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
I'm speaking to you just days after Terra Power broke
ground for a new nuclear power plant in Wyoming. You've
said over the years that nuclear fission, the power generated
from splitting atoms, has to be a part of the
clean energy mix. And the work you've put into Terra
Power has been to overcome the challenges of old reactors,
(06:03):
both on cost and on safety. You've invested a billion dollars.
You say you will invest billions more as needed. Did
you think it would take so long?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Well, I am a patient investor, and Boss lov Smiel
has said that people who come from the Digital revolution
software industry are kind of spoiled and we don't understand
the practicalities, and he's right. It's been a great learning curve.
It's exciting that the perseverance in the case that tear
powers are now paid off in getting that first plant started,
(06:39):
some things you really have to step back and start
with a new approach. And in that case, if you
cool with sodium versus water, you avoid high pressure, you
avoid all the complexity that third generation reactors have for
the after heat problem, and so it really gives you
the ability to generate competitive election Christy, which unfortunately the
(07:02):
third generation has not achieved that. And you know, neither
investors nor utilities are enthused about third generation reactors for
purely economic reasons. So, you know, adding fission and later
(07:22):
adding fusion to the mix of electricity generation to compliment
you know, wind and solar, which we love and we,
like everyone in the clean energy space, want to see
the acceleration of those installations, which you know we're falling
behind our ambitious goals there, but nuclear would help a
(07:42):
lot in terms of the need for reliability.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, and the challenge that we have is we have
to reach net zero as soon as possible, ideally by
twenty fifty. Now, if this plant is running in twenty
thirty and is deemed a success, do you think it'll
leave enough time to build more plants like it around
the world, not just in the US, not just overcome
all the regulations that need to be overcome in other
(08:06):
countries and make a meaningful difference in reducing emissions.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
The reason I invested over a billion and why I'll
be investing even more. You know, I didn't do it
because it's some great way of making money. Although we succeed,
you know, the investors will get a return. We're already
looking at many international partnerships South Korea, Japan, UK, France.
(08:35):
You know, they're all very excited. They'll come in and
shadow the NRC regulators as they look through this thing.
And so yes, if we don't build one hundred, we
won't make significant contribution to climate. So that's you know,
the whole point. I'd also love over time to see
those reactors able to help electrify Africa, where the shortage
(08:59):
of electricity there is super painful in terms of their
need for economic development. So it's ambitious. But you know,
because we have this one standard design, then we use
digital design, it should be very different than previous reactors.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Now, coming to the summit, you've been investing in climate
technologies for nearly two decades now and Since you've built
breakthrough energy ventures, you've been able to scale the amounts
you are able to invest in, scale the number of
startups you're able to invest in. But as you sit
here in twenty twenty four and look across the landscape
of energy transition sectors, what types of technologies are getting
(09:43):
too much investment and what types of technologies are getting
too little?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Well, you know, electricity is plinal to this thing, and
you know, so we have like in the grid, we
have a thing called TS conductor that you just change
the wires and you can run twice as much electricity
through them. You know, that's kind of thing I had.
I was kind of amazed. You really can do that,
and you know they're ramping up their capacity in order
(10:12):
to do that. You know, some people might say we
have too many fusion companies. We have about sixteen, and
Breakthroughs got a relationship with five of them. But given
the scientific uncertainties and challenges involved, I don't think that's
too many. I think it's amazing that private investors are
coming in like that. You know, we started with just
(10:33):
incredible individual investors who I talk to, and to raise
the beeB one money. We've added institutional investors that actually
are helping us. So people like Harvard and Tamassic are
you know, as these things are maturing, they're huge help
(10:54):
to us. And even though you know, some risk capital
has been affected over the last year as the macroeconomic
policy has changed in the area of claimant, partly because
we have the tech investors who care about these issues,
we're not seen systemically a problem and raising capital. You know,
(11:16):
we have sectors like you know, meat where okay, they've
had challenges and so now we have to strengthen those
strategies and get a next generation of approaches there. But
you know, the the you know, it's it's the projects
that we're rolling out that is, we've gotten companies to
(11:37):
this maturity that they really just want to build things,
and yet they're not ready for like a brook Field
where you know, you know exactly who the buyer is
and exactly what the efficiency is. You know, we have
to build probably the first ten plants or so before
you get to that. Hey, it's just normal finance people
who are running a spreadsheet on this thing, so that
(11:57):
that value of works in the life app really well, Okay,
let's make steal, Let's make cement, let's go do this.
That's partly the meetings, you know, to really get those
partnerships accelerated, and many of which depend on government policies.
That'll be one of the metrics we have for how
successful the meeting is.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Now moving on to AI, I'm going to give you
a little bit of a preamble. So big companies have
to be a part of the climate solution. Tech companies
such as the one you found at Microsoft have taken
the lead to show how to set ambitious goals, layout
clear plans, and hopefully meet them. But most of these
tech companies have now embraced the race for artificial intelligence,
(12:44):
and that means almost all of them are falling behind
on their emissions goals. So Microsoft wants to be common
negative by twenty thirty, but instead last year it's emissions
with thirty percent higher than in twenty twenty, and that's
mostly down to the emissions from building data centers, not
really from its energy use, because Microsoft says it matches
(13:06):
all of its energy with renewables. So if the richest
companies with the most thoughtful climate plans aren't able to
keep up with reducing emissions in the short term and
most importantly, don't appear confident that they will meet end
of the decades goals. That's what Brad Smith when we
spoke to him, the President told us, how do you
(13:28):
think big companies can be a part of solution to
tackle climate change.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Well, the whole breakthrough energy approach is that you stimulate innovation.
You get the brightest minds all over the world, first
at the lab level and then at the early project
level to push forward approaches that can achieve no green premium,
(13:56):
no extra cost for the output, whether that's electricity or
steel or cement. And we have our big event next
week in London where people see what I think can
be amazing progress in all these areas of emission. The
electricity is fundamental because not only is it a big
(14:18):
part of present emissions, by electrification is how you take
passenger cars and buses and drop the emissions to zero.
And so you're going to more than double your electricity demand.
And as you say, the demand for data centers driven
by AI type execution adds to that load pattern. Now,
(14:43):
those data centers, because of optic fiber connection, can be
located in many places around the world, but there's a
lot of reasons. Those companies want to put a lot
of their data centers if they can access the green
electricity in the United States, and so you'll see them
help push forward all these technologies, you know, whether it's
(15:07):
googleedd a purchasing agreement with Fervo for that geothermal energy,
which was great to see you Microsoft's you know, huge
leader in this, and also making sure the accounting is
done in a correct way, which is harder than you
might think, but you know that the increased maturity there
is fantastic. They've been talking with CFS even about a
(15:30):
power agreement with them, you know, terror powers meeting both
of the companies in individually, and now there's this clean
buyers group that's come together, which was a great development
and a really good team running that group. So it's
fantastic the tech companies primarily for electricity, but also for
their air travel, their steel, their cement, will be buyers
(15:52):
willing to pay a green premium and help therefore scale
the technologies up.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So one of the things that President Bradsmith told us
was Microsoft things, the contribution that AI will make to
humanity is going to outweigh the emissions that may come
from it from the development, at least in the short term.
But if we leave large humanity question apart, do you
see any skepticism on AI AI's offer right now and
(16:24):
especially as it comes to helping us on the climate problem.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Well, AI, whether it's health or education or climate science
things is extremely promising. You know, it's so promising people
worry about. Wow, that can provide you know, such rapid
productivity advances that we haven't haven't seen in the past.
But you know, you saw like this Aurora model that
(16:53):
Microsoft announced for weather prediction, and you know, Gates Foundation
will take tools like that so that small hold of
farmers understand and when to plant, which is more challenging
in the face of climate providing better seeds. So climate adaptation,
which doesn't get enough visibility, you know, will benefit just
like climate mitigation from these AI tools. You know, the
(17:16):
net balance in terms of climate is that AI will
be a very good thing, whether it's the material science
part of the thing or managing plasmas and fusion reactors,
it's going to accelerate the innovation and even like how
do why do props guides not last over time? How
do we make you know, solar panels even cheaper and
(17:38):
higher productivity than we have today. So AI, you know
that extra five percent of demand is not the thing
that prevents our climate goals. You know, I certainly wouldn't
want to take a out of this picture. It makes
me more optimistic. But you know the main thing that
makes me optimistic is that as we went from twenty fifteen,
(17:58):
where green tech of fashion and the bench model didn't
look like it could even work in this space, you know,
here we are with over one hundred companies and the
attendance by in our summit next week by big companies
who want to partner with these companies, governments who want
to get their policy right. It's way beyond what I expected.
(18:19):
And so it doesn't say we'll hit our ambitious goals,
but it says we'll be able to come close, which
in twenty fifteen I wasn't even sure I'd be able
to say that.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
After the break, I asked Bill Gates what happens if
Donald Trump is elected president again? And by the way,
if you've been enjoying this episode, please take a moment
to rate and review the show on Spotify or Apple.
It helps other listeners find it.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Actually, before we get back to your conversation with Bill Gates.
I thought it might be helpful to remind listeners of
the last time he was on the podcast, which was
two years ago, when you spoke to him about the
Inflation Reduction Act. Something that's kind of coming full circle
because if Donald Trump is elected, he has indicated that
he will be interested in dismantling the IRA.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yes, that's right. When he spoke to him in twenty
twenty two, he told us about his involvement among so
many other people who were trying to lobby the politicians
to support the Inflation Reduction Act. It did go through.
It became the largest climate bill that the US has passed,
and it has already unlocked billions of dollars of investment
(19:38):
in climate technologies. But if there is a change in
the administration, there is a real risk that many of
the remaining billions of dollars that are set to come
into climate technologies may never get invested.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
So Bill Gates was among the billionaires lobbying Joe Biden
to enact i'm A policy. But we've also seen some
recent reporting from Bloomberg about billionaires supporting Trump because they
like the sound of the tax cuts he's promising in
the regulations he's promising to dismantle.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
That's right. My colleagues Amanda Gordon and Srida Natrajan wrote
a story just after Donald Trump was convicted in a
New York court about some Wall Street billionaires who are
now becoming Trump supporters and weren't in the past. And
it's about money, it's about taxes, it's about dismantling regulations.
(20:34):
And they named a few people in the story, such
as Howard Lutnik, ahmid Malik, and the co founder of Blackstone,
Stephen Schwartzman.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
So let's hear what Bill Gates had to say about
the election.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So, now, private investments are key to making technology scale,
but so are government policies. Now, there are many many
elections around the world this year. Many have happened, many
will happen, and we are bound to see swings, some
steps forward, some steps backward. But the election that it
will make the biggest difference to the global climate, right
(21:10):
is the US election. Now, I'm not going to ask
you to make a prediction, but the stakes are quite
clear between the two parties. If anything, Donald Trump increasingly
is making it clear that he wants to roll back
a lot of climate policies and promote the fuel industry.
So how should climate startups prepare if Trump is elected.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
It's hard to predict US politics, both in terms of
you know, who's going to win and how dramatic the
changes might be. You know, if Trump is elected, we
may see more change and therefore the whole business environment
you may have to deal with a lot of uncertainty.
And you know, I do think that as we've taken
(21:51):
these projects, and you know, for example, Form you know
is building their factory in West Virginia, talked about you know,
terror Powers building a plant Wyoming. You know, we have
you know, Lux Walls building in Michigan. We have lots
of companies like Electra that are going down to Texas.
Texas actually may have the most of these projects. So
(22:13):
as you actually start the projects, create the jobs around
the projects, you know, the normal political process which is
not just a single individual, but it's politicians seeing the
jobs in their communities. You know, I'm hopeful that the
degree of change can be modest. You know, the idea
(22:34):
of the US being more energy secure and US innovation
allowing us to export, you know, those things are still
somewhat by partisan in nature, and look, this cause is
too important to you know, not deal with whatever setbacks
take place. You know, I think voters who care about
(22:55):
climate will tend to vote a certain way. But I've
said that trying to make these issues as bipartisan as
possible is super important. The innovation framework helps a lot,
because if you're paying huge green premiums, then some voters
are really against that, either because they don't think they
(23:16):
should be the one to pay, or they don't think
anyone should pay. It's a problem even in Europe, which
are the most climate committed voter bases. Even there, if
you push too hard on you must buy an electric
key pump, or we're going to end gasoline cars even there.
Unless we innovate, we're going to push beyond what voters
(23:38):
are willing to do. And so the basic theory of
breakthrough energy, which is make this stuff not cost more,
although between here and there we need a lot of
risk taking and government help. I'd say that theory is
stronger today because of the political situation we face in
(23:59):
many many countries than ever before. And so thank goodness,
it's going well, but we would have to adjust. And
if investors think tech catch credits are going to come
and go. That is tough because when you build a
plant that's a thirty year plant, you're kind of making assumptions.
You know, I'd rather have a modest level of support
(24:20):
constant for thirty years. Then it comes and goes in
even larger amounts. So you know how we work with
the Congress to maintain as much of the climate support
as possible, and to try and get predictability and to
adapt a challenge breakthrough. We'll face as much as we
(24:41):
need to.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
All right, great talking to you and look forward to
seeing you.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Thank you for listening to Zero. If you like this episode,
please take a moment to rate or review the show
on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a
friend or with someone job hunting in Wyoming. You can
get in touch at zero pod at bloomberg dot net.
Zero's producer is Mithy Lee Rau. Bloomberg's Head of Podcasts
is Sage Bauman and head of Talk is Brendan Nunan.
(25:12):
Our theme music is composed by Wondering Special thanks to
Kira Bendram, Alicia Clanton and the Royal Shakespeare Company. I
am Akshatrati Bakson
Welcome to Zero. I am Aksha Trati. This week Bill Gates,
Nuclear Power and Donald Trump. Hi atua hi miily.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I am not Bill Gates.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I can tell it's a bummer.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I am the producer of Zero. We had a busy
couple of days and I thought listeners might want to
know that this conversation with Bill Gates was recorded in
Stratford upon Avon, of all places, where we were in
town to see the opening night of a new play
about climate change put on by the Royal Shakespeare Company.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
And the play is called Kyoto, and it is a
play about international climate negotiations. Things that I've attended. They
have drama, but I never thought somebody could make a
play about it. So I was very excited to see
what they've done, and we'll be bringing a review very soon.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
But you were also very excited to talk to Bill Gates,
so excited that we missed the first ten minutes of
the play while the kind folks at the Royal Shakespeare
Company found a quiet place to record a conversation with Bill.
Why were you so excited to talk to him?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Bill Gates isn't just one of the richest people on
the planet. He's also somebody who takes climate change quite seriously.
He's been thinking about it for nearly two decades, and
he's investing serious sums of money in technology development. And
so given we're in the hottest year, given climate technologies
aren't scaling as quickly as we would want them to,
(01:35):
it's always nice to hear how he's thinking about this moment,
both from a technology perspective and how the politics of
this year, where there are so many elections happening, will
shape the future.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
And he's been in the news the last couple of
weeks because of a new nuclear plant that he broke
ground in in Camera, Wyoming. I was interested in this
because it's a tiny historical town population less than three
thousand people. The coal plant there is due to close
in twenty thirty six. I've been reading about it and
they're very excited that Bill Gates is coming to open
(02:11):
this new nuclear plant with his company, Terra Power. But
it's also notable because of the design of the plant.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Right, that's right. Among the very first investments that Bill
Gates made as he got into investing in climate was
founding this company called Terra Power. It was founded in
two thousand and eight and His goal was to try
and develop a new type of reactor to overcome the
problems of the previous generation of reactors that used water
(02:39):
as a way to cool and that required very complex
engineering to try and deal with what happens to water
when you heat it in an enclosed space. There's a
lot of heat and a lot of pressure involved, and
to try and deal with the safety issues that came along.
The design of previous reactors just became more and more complex.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
So what's the approach that this plant is taking. Instead
of using water.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
In this case, they use sodium, which means that the
engineering challenge becomes easier to deal with. And if he's
able to build many, many of the sodium reactors, he'll
also be able to make them more cheaply than the
current class of reactors. So, in an ideal world, if
Terra Power succeeds, nuclear power could become cheaper and safer,
(03:34):
and that would be a boost for the climate technology
set that we have.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
This is a long time coming for Bill Gates and
for terror Power, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Very much so? Founded in two thousand and eight? And
if all the things go as he hopes they would,
the plant won't be ready until twenty thirty. Initially, they
couldn't get the regulatory approvals they wanted in the US,
so they started exploring an option to building China. Then
under the previous Donald Trump administration, the US government blocked
(04:06):
that from happening because they didn't want technology transferred to
happen to China, and so then they started exploring an
option to do it in the US. And now they
do have a site, but they still do not have
the regulatory approvals needed to build that plant.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
So it's an exciting moment for Bill Gates and something
that you wanted to talk to him about. You said,
he is one of the few billionaires who's really engaged
with questions about climate change. Where did these plans with
teara power and nuclear energy fit into his broader thinking
about the energy transition?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
So Bill Gates's one line answer to any big problem
is innovation, and he's been thinking a lot about how
bringing new technologies to bear on the problem will make
it easier to solve those problems. He also acknowledges that's
not the only route. We do need a lot of policies, etc.
But his focus is very much on creating the solution
(05:04):
set we need, and that's what he's doing with Breakthrough
Energy Ventures, which now has funds that are more than
three billion dollars worth that are all focused on investing
in climate technologies.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And we'll be going to the Breakthrough Energy Summit soon
and recording with some of those companies and bringing zero
listeners those conversations later this summer. But first let's hear
your conversation with Bill Gates.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
I'm speaking to you just days after Terra Power broke
ground for a new nuclear power plant in Wyoming. You've
said over the years that nuclear fission, the power generated
from splitting atoms, has to be a part of the
clean energy mix. And the work you've put into Terra
Power has been to overcome the challenges of old reactors,
(06:03):
both on cost and on safety. You've invested a billion dollars.
You say you will invest billions more as needed. Did
you think it would take so long?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Well, I am a patient investor, and Boss lov Smiel
has said that people who come from the Digital revolution
software industry are kind of spoiled and we don't understand
the practicalities, and he's right. It's been a great learning curve.
It's exciting that the perseverance in the case that tear
powers are now paid off in getting that first plant started,
(06:39):
some things you really have to step back and start
with a new approach. And in that case, if you
cool with sodium versus water, you avoid high pressure, you
avoid all the complexity that third generation reactors have for
the after heat problem, and so it really gives you
the ability to generate competitive election Christy, which unfortunately the
(07:02):
third generation has not achieved that. And you know, neither
investors nor utilities are enthused about third generation reactors for
purely economic reasons. So, you know, adding fission and later
(07:22):
adding fusion to the mix of electricity generation to compliment
you know, wind and solar, which we love and we,
like everyone in the clean energy space, want to see
the acceleration of those installations, which you know we're falling
behind our ambitious goals there, but nuclear would help a
(07:42):
lot in terms of the need for reliability.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, and the challenge that we have is we have
to reach net zero as soon as possible, ideally by
twenty fifty. Now, if this plant is running in twenty
thirty and is deemed a success, do you think it'll
leave enough time to build more plants like it around
the world, not just in the US, not just overcome
all the regulations that need to be overcome in other
(08:06):
countries and make a meaningful difference in reducing emissions.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
The reason I invested over a billion and why I'll
be investing even more. You know, I didn't do it
because it's some great way of making money. Although we succeed,
you know, the investors will get a return. We're already
looking at many international partnerships South Korea, Japan, UK, France.
(08:35):
You know, they're all very excited. They'll come in and
shadow the NRC regulators as they look through this thing.
And so yes, if we don't build one hundred, we
won't make significant contribution to climate. So that's you know,
the whole point. I'd also love over time to see
those reactors able to help electrify Africa, where the shortage
(08:59):
of electricity there is super painful in terms of their
need for economic development. So it's ambitious. But you know,
because we have this one standard design, then we use
digital design, it should be very different than previous reactors.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Now, coming to the summit, you've been investing in climate
technologies for nearly two decades now and Since you've built
breakthrough energy ventures, you've been able to scale the amounts
you are able to invest in, scale the number of
startups you're able to invest in. But as you sit
here in twenty twenty four and look across the landscape
of energy transition sectors, what types of technologies are getting
(09:43):
too much investment and what types of technologies are getting
too little?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Well, you know, electricity is plinal to this thing, and
you know, so we have like in the grid, we
have a thing called TS conductor that you just change
the wires and you can run twice as much electricity
through them. You know, that's kind of thing I had.
I was kind of amazed. You really can do that,
and you know they're ramping up their capacity in order
(10:12):
to do that. You know, some people might say we
have too many fusion companies. We have about sixteen, and
Breakthroughs got a relationship with five of them. But given
the scientific uncertainties and challenges involved, I don't think that's
too many. I think it's amazing that private investors are
coming in like that. You know, we started with just
(10:33):
incredible individual investors who I talk to, and to raise
the beeB one money. We've added institutional investors that actually
are helping us. So people like Harvard and Tamassic are
you know, as these things are maturing, they're huge help
(10:54):
to us. And even though you know, some risk capital
has been affected over the last year as the macroeconomic
policy has changed in the area of claimant, partly because
we have the tech investors who care about these issues,
we're not seen systemically a problem and raising capital. You know,
(11:16):
we have sectors like you know, meat where okay, they've
had challenges and so now we have to strengthen those
strategies and get a next generation of approaches there. But
you know, the the you know, it's it's the projects
that we're rolling out that is, we've gotten companies to
(11:37):
this maturity that they really just want to build things,
and yet they're not ready for like a brook Field
where you know, you know exactly who the buyer is
and exactly what the efficiency is. You know, we have
to build probably the first ten plants or so before
you get to that. Hey, it's just normal finance people
who are running a spreadsheet on this thing, so that
(11:57):
that value of works in the life app really well, Okay,
let's make steal, Let's make cement, let's go do this.
That's partly the meetings, you know, to really get those
partnerships accelerated, and many of which depend on government policies.
That'll be one of the metrics we have for how
successful the meeting is.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Now moving on to AI, I'm going to give you
a little bit of a preamble. So big companies have
to be a part of the climate solution. Tech companies
such as the one you found at Microsoft have taken
the lead to show how to set ambitious goals, layout
clear plans, and hopefully meet them. But most of these
tech companies have now embraced the race for artificial intelligence,
(12:44):
and that means almost all of them are falling behind
on their emissions goals. So Microsoft wants to be common
negative by twenty thirty, but instead last year it's emissions
with thirty percent higher than in twenty twenty, and that's
mostly down to the emissions from building data centers, not
really from its energy use, because Microsoft says it matches
(13:06):
all of its energy with renewables. So if the richest
companies with the most thoughtful climate plans aren't able to
keep up with reducing emissions in the short term and
most importantly, don't appear confident that they will meet end
of the decades goals. That's what Brad Smith when we
spoke to him, the President told us, how do you
(13:28):
think big companies can be a part of solution to
tackle climate change.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Well, the whole breakthrough energy approach is that you stimulate innovation.
You get the brightest minds all over the world, first
at the lab level and then at the early project
level to push forward approaches that can achieve no green premium,
(13:56):
no extra cost for the output, whether that's electricity or
steel or cement. And we have our big event next
week in London where people see what I think can
be amazing progress in all these areas of emission. The
electricity is fundamental because not only is it a big
(14:18):
part of present emissions, by electrification is how you take
passenger cars and buses and drop the emissions to zero.
And so you're going to more than double your electricity demand.
And as you say, the demand for data centers driven
by AI type execution adds to that load pattern. Now,
(14:43):
those data centers, because of optic fiber connection, can be
located in many places around the world, but there's a
lot of reasons. Those companies want to put a lot
of their data centers if they can access the green
electricity in the United States, and so you'll see them
help push forward all these technologies, you know, whether it's
(15:07):
googleedd a purchasing agreement with Fervo for that geothermal energy,
which was great to see you Microsoft's you know, huge
leader in this, and also making sure the accounting is
done in a correct way, which is harder than you
might think, but you know that the increased maturity there
is fantastic. They've been talking with CFS even about a
(15:30):
power agreement with them, you know, terror powers meeting both
of the companies in individually, and now there's this clean
buyers group that's come together, which was a great development
and a really good team running that group. So it's
fantastic the tech companies primarily for electricity, but also for
their air travel, their steel, their cement, will be buyers
(15:52):
willing to pay a green premium and help therefore scale
the technologies up.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So one of the things that President Bradsmith told us
was Microsoft things, the contribution that AI will make to
humanity is going to outweigh the emissions that may come
from it from the development, at least in the short term.
But if we leave large humanity question apart, do you
see any skepticism on AI AI's offer right now and
(16:24):
especially as it comes to helping us on the climate problem.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Well, AI, whether it's health or education or climate science
things is extremely promising. You know, it's so promising people
worry about. Wow, that can provide you know, such rapid
productivity advances that we haven't haven't seen in the past.
But you know, you saw like this Aurora model that
(16:53):
Microsoft announced for weather prediction, and you know, Gates Foundation
will take tools like that so that small hold of
farmers understand and when to plant, which is more challenging
in the face of climate providing better seeds. So climate adaptation,
which doesn't get enough visibility, you know, will benefit just
like climate mitigation from these AI tools. You know, the
(17:16):
net balance in terms of climate is that AI will
be a very good thing, whether it's the material science
part of the thing or managing plasmas and fusion reactors,
it's going to accelerate the innovation and even like how
do why do props guides not last over time? How
do we make you know, solar panels even cheaper and
(17:38):
higher productivity than we have today. So AI, you know
that extra five percent of demand is not the thing
that prevents our climate goals. You know, I certainly wouldn't
want to take a out of this picture. It makes
me more optimistic. But you know the main thing that
makes me optimistic is that as we went from twenty fifteen,
(17:58):
where green tech of fashion and the bench model didn't
look like it could even work in this space, you know,
here we are with over one hundred companies and the
attendance by in our summit next week by big companies
who want to partner with these companies, governments who want
to get their policy right. It's way beyond what I expected.
(18:19):
And so it doesn't say we'll hit our ambitious goals,
but it says we'll be able to come close, which
in twenty fifteen I wasn't even sure I'd be able
to say that.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
After the break, I asked Bill Gates what happens if
Donald Trump is elected president again? And by the way,
if you've been enjoying this episode, please take a moment
to rate and review the show on Spotify or Apple.
It helps other listeners find it.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Actually, before we get back to your conversation with Bill Gates.
I thought it might be helpful to remind listeners of
the last time he was on the podcast, which was
two years ago, when you spoke to him about the
Inflation Reduction Act. Something that's kind of coming full circle
because if Donald Trump is elected, he has indicated that
he will be interested in dismantling the IRA.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yes, that's right. When he spoke to him in twenty
twenty two, he told us about his involvement among so
many other people who were trying to lobby the politicians
to support the Inflation Reduction Act. It did go through.
It became the largest climate bill that the US has passed,
and it has already unlocked billions of dollars of investment
(19:38):
in climate technologies. But if there is a change in
the administration, there is a real risk that many of
the remaining billions of dollars that are set to come
into climate technologies may never get invested.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
So Bill Gates was among the billionaires lobbying Joe Biden
to enact i'm A policy. But we've also seen some
recent reporting from Bloomberg about billionaires supporting Trump because they
like the sound of the tax cuts he's promising in
the regulations he's promising to dismantle.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
That's right. My colleagues Amanda Gordon and Srida Natrajan wrote
a story just after Donald Trump was convicted in a
New York court about some Wall Street billionaires who are
now becoming Trump supporters and weren't in the past. And
it's about money, it's about taxes, it's about dismantling regulations.
(20:34):
And they named a few people in the story, such
as Howard Lutnik, ahmid Malik, and the co founder of Blackstone,
Stephen Schwartzman.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
So let's hear what Bill Gates had to say about
the election.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So, now, private investments are key to making technology scale,
but so are government policies. Now, there are many many
elections around the world this year. Many have happened, many
will happen, and we are bound to see swings, some
steps forward, some steps backward. But the election that it
will make the biggest difference to the global climate, right
(21:10):
is the US election. Now, I'm not going to ask
you to make a prediction, but the stakes are quite
clear between the two parties. If anything, Donald Trump increasingly
is making it clear that he wants to roll back
a lot of climate policies and promote the fuel industry.
So how should climate startups prepare if Trump is elected.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
It's hard to predict US politics, both in terms of
you know, who's going to win and how dramatic the
changes might be. You know, if Trump is elected, we
may see more change and therefore the whole business environment
you may have to deal with a lot of uncertainty.
And you know, I do think that as we've taken
(21:51):
these projects, and you know, for example, Form you know
is building their factory in West Virginia, talked about you know,
terror Powers building a plant Wyoming. You know, we have
you know, Lux Walls building in Michigan. We have lots
of companies like Electra that are going down to Texas.
Texas actually may have the most of these projects. So
(22:13):
as you actually start the projects, create the jobs around
the projects, you know, the normal political process which is
not just a single individual, but it's politicians seeing the
jobs in their communities. You know, I'm hopeful that the
degree of change can be modest. You know, the idea
(22:34):
of the US being more energy secure and US innovation
allowing us to export, you know, those things are still
somewhat by partisan in nature, and look, this cause is
too important to you know, not deal with whatever setbacks
take place. You know, I think voters who care about
(22:55):
climate will tend to vote a certain way. But I've
said that trying to make these issues as bipartisan as
possible is super important. The innovation framework helps a lot,
because if you're paying huge green premiums, then some voters
are really against that, either because they don't think they
(23:16):
should be the one to pay, or they don't think
anyone should pay. It's a problem even in Europe, which
are the most climate committed voter bases. Even there, if
you push too hard on you must buy an electric
key pump, or we're going to end gasoline cars even there.
Unless we innovate, we're going to push beyond what voters
(23:38):
are willing to do. And so the basic theory of
breakthrough energy, which is make this stuff not cost more,
although between here and there we need a lot of
risk taking and government help. I'd say that theory is
stronger today because of the political situation we face in
(23:59):
many many countries than ever before. And so thank goodness,
it's going well, but we would have to adjust. And
if investors think tech catch credits are going to come
and go. That is tough because when you build a
plant that's a thirty year plant, you're kind of making assumptions.
You know, I'd rather have a modest level of support
(24:20):
constant for thirty years. Then it comes and goes in
even larger amounts. So you know how we work with
the Congress to maintain as much of the climate support
as possible, and to try and get predictability and to
adapt a challenge breakthrough. We'll face as much as we
(24:41):
need to.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
All right, great talking to you and look forward to
seeing you.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Thank you for listening to Zero. If you like this episode,
please take a moment to rate or review the show
on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a
friend or with someone job hunting in Wyoming. You can
get in touch at zero pod at bloomberg dot net.
Zero's producer is Mithy Lee Rau. Bloomberg's Head of Podcasts
is Sage Bauman and head of Talk is Brendan Nunan.
(25:12):
Our theme music is composed by Wondering Special thanks to
Kira Bendram, Alicia Clanton and the Royal Shakespeare Company. I
am Akshatrati Bakson
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