October 25, 2024 • 22 mins
Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum dive into the ongoing Delphi murder case, discussing new developments, and forensic details surrounding the tragic murders of Abby and Libby. Sheryl and Nancy explore Richard Allen's behavior changes, including his physical appearance, and analyze his actions and statements through the lens of their extensive legal and investigative experience.
Previous Zone 7 Episodes Covering The Delphi Case -
The latest on the Delphi murders: Delphi murders hearing, JonBenet Ramsey #news, Idaho student murders update | Headline #Crime
Previous Zone 7 episode about Delphi murders: The Delphi Murders: The Quest for Justice with Barbara MacDonald
Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi written by: Susan Hendricks
The Delphi Murders: Case Refresher as Jury Selection Starts | Susan Hendricks
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:10) Sheryl is live from Delphi for today’s CRU
- (1:10) Allen's psychological state and appearance changes
- (4:30) Analysis of Allen’s statement, "It’s all over now."
- (5:00) Conspiracy theories and legal arguments
- (8:00) Explanation of bullet cycling and forensics
- (15:00) Jury's management and trial integrity
- (21:00) Final thoughts in Dephi
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Crime Roundup Live from Delphi. I'm Cheryl
McCollum with the one and only Nancy Gray.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You know, Cheryl, I've been listening to a lot of
your crime roundups plus what's with you, tap Might and Delphi.
It sounds like you've been up to a four am
what's happening?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I was driving until about two am, sure enough. But
before we go any further, Happy birthday you.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I thought for sure i'd flame out before now. So
every day is gravy man, everything.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
It is absolutely icing all the time.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Every time I'd walk through one of those projects without
a god, I'd say, well, this.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Is it, this is how it's gonna go. Yep, I
ain't thinking in this way.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
We got some things that have been happen in the
last couple of days, and I've just got to get
your tay as a former prosecutor, about how you think
they're building this case. But the first thing I want
to ask you about is Richard Allen changing his height
on his fishing license.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Now, isn't that amazing? Because I really really hated that
you could not be with us last night when we
did in MSN Mayor Street Media's Crime Stories, because I
wanted to talk to you about not necessarily that very thing,
but something related changing and I'm circling back. I'm not
(01:40):
avoiding changing his appearance. And I compare it to, of course,
Scott Peterson. You know, I hate using the same examples,
but they're just so fertile, they're rich with comparisons. Scott
Peterson dying is hearing growing a goatee. And then you got,
as soon as the survivor was Dylan Mortenson where it
(02:01):
could have been Bethany said, the had bushy eyebrows and
x y Z. He immediately fixed that, Brian Kohberger. And
now he's getting a different kind of a metrosexual look.
The changing of the appearance, because if you look at
photos Richard Allen, for instance, the one where he's out
(02:24):
with his wife at a restaurant slash bar, and he's
sitting directly in front of a composite sketch of him. Yes,
he looks you know, you know, let me just say heavier.
He looks much more like the man on the bridge,
the bridge guy. And now he's just withering away. He's
(02:46):
intentionally doing this. He's got that well, had that horrible
goatee and it looks like cousin it has jumped on
his chin. But what I'm saying, and that's a personal choice,
you know, fine, go for it. But if anyone see
he's trying to change his appearance to differentiate himself as
(03:08):
much as possible from the bridge guy.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
He knows he was seen on the bridge, So of
course that's what he's doing. And I'll tell you you,
more than anybody I have ever known, could take one
sentence out of fifty thousand pieces of evidence and make
it so prevalent that it would just slap the jury
in the face every day. And we found out that
(03:34):
when they went to his home and was talking to him.
And it's all over now, Amen, I could see that
big at Dallas on a poster board.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
It doesn't matter, it's over. I mean, I've.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Had a cop come to our house. Let's see. The
twins were about three and we loved I believe I've
told you this before. We love to go I return
a little Methodist church. Don't ask me how this happened.
I never did this as a child, but apparently both
the twins loved it. They would look for bugs, they
were bug investigators, and we would catch bugs and look
(04:12):
for bugs and dig under rocks for bugs. And there
was this walkway over at the church that had rocks
on the edges and we would play for hours and
hours before I would have to go to work at CNM. Anyway,
a vehicle, a big monster truck, came flying through the
(04:33):
parking lot and came straight at the twins. We were
kind of on the corner on the very curve, the
most dangerous place to be, but there was never any
traffic there. I jumped from him and pushed the twins back,
and of course got the tag, and the monster truck
scrooched off, you know, burning rubber. Well, of course I
(04:56):
called the police, so you know, was a while later.
Two cops came to the door, and I can tell
you this. I said, well, come on in, can I
make you some coffee? Would you like a bottle of water?
Blah blah blah. I don't say, well, holme a wrist up,
go on and cut me. It's all over now.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
I didn't do that, No, And I would love to.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Argue to Jerry's. When you see the GBI pulling up
behind you, you may tap your brakes for a moment,
but you don't take off at one five mph. Why
because you don't have a dead body in your trunk,
you don't have dope under your seat, you're not carrying
an illegal weapon, you don't have a warrant out for
(05:42):
your Sorry, we're end. So why did he say that,
you're so right, Cherl? That would be at the top.
It's all over now.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
It's right exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Can we just hit on the fact too, that when
he knew he had been seen, So that's why he said, Hey, yeah,
I was on the bridge.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
I just want joll to know I was looking at
fish but.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Scott Peterson and Scott Peterson, yeah, I was golfing until
he found out the marina workers saw him. I'm trying
to back the boat in. Then he went, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
is that the marina?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
The same thing here?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And you know it's driving me crazy online all the
crazy conspiracy theories.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Cover up. You know you can't have it both ways.
That you cannot argue the cops are stupid, which they're not,
and this is an elaborate cover up. Okay, you have
to pick which way you're gonna go. You can't have
forty five and an elaborate cover up that has somehow
managed to withstand all of this scrutiny because you know,
(06:45):
if there was a cover up, the defense would be
that would be their banner and they would be, you know,
rancing around the courtroom waving the flag cover up.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And if they're gonna set somebody up, it's not gonna
be with one unspent bullet. There's no way they would
have knowled that would have matched his phone. That's just
like when they said, oh, the cops planted blood at
OJ's you know, Nicole Brown's theme from OJ. They didn't
know OJ was hurt. They wouldn't have put his blood
anywhere they didn't know he was cut.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
That ain't how people.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Get set up. People get set up. Oh there's a
bag of dope right down on your back seat.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I can see now, CHERYLD, Can I just explain something.
I've tried to come up with an easy way to
explain it. And when I get to Delphi, I hope
you join me on crime stories. But I can tell
you where Cheryl mccomb's going to be. She's going to
be at the meet in three because there is one
around the courthouse that's right right, there is one. Ours
was Megabar yes, do you remember Megabar? I do ernest
(07:45):
and I lived at Megabar yep, my investigator because they
had fresh turnips every day. Anyway, that said, that's where
I'll find Cheryl. I might as well, you know what,
I need to just go ahead and call production, tell
them we're moving to the meet and three because we
need Cheryl mccollumn. If she's not leaving until she gets
that form bread, that is not happening.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Listen, is going to be me and seventy five attorneys,
you know.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Okay, And now for Cheryl and the meat and three
and moving production. This is what I want to talk
to you about. Just cycling a bullet through a gun,
not firing it dense the bullet cycling is just the
act of loading or unloading a round into the chamber.
But what it does. It can cycling a bullet through
(08:34):
a gun dense the bullet knows and that can be
matched back like a fingerprint to the gun. It's microscope
that you don't see it. The bullet still looks even
shiny to you to the naked eye, just as a
bullet that's been fired, unless has been you know, destroyed
(08:54):
in some way, looks like you have to look under
a microscope to see that in and those.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Tool markings correct.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
So I'm anxious for that to come out. I need
you to explain it for me when I get back
to DELFI.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, I'm waiting on that, and I'm telling you the
placement where it was found is also critical.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Between the two bodies.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That to me is extraordinarily telling because that thing, when
it's ejected, goes to the right and slightly back, so
if it's between the two of them, he was pointing
that gun.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
At one of them, who I believe was Abby.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Why do you say, Abby, I'm curious. I don't disagree
or agree. I'm just curious.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Because if you're looking straight away, Abby's to the left,
Libby's to the right, and he's right handed right in
that bullets between them, so it would have ejected to
the right and slightly back, landing between the two of them.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
You know, that makes perfect sense. Yesterday I was thinking
last night, I focused a lot on the fact that
Libby's injuries were so much worse than well, they're both
slash dead their throats, so it's hard. It's like parsing words,
you know, mincing, splitting hairs, but there was an absolute
(10:14):
disregard leaving. In addition to the murder, leaving Libby unclothed.
First slashes to her neck were worse. Just trying to
figure out if she had been his object of desire,
if she had been his target, maybe she could have
been as simple as she brought back, or she said
(10:37):
something back that made him angry. But just think about
all the times he watched these girls come in and
out of that pharmacy. Oh, this is what I'm waiting on.
I'm waiting on the confessions because I guarantee you this
guy revealed so much about the crime scene that was
never stated publicly. I had. He's a great lawyer, Philip Debate,
(11:04):
How can you argue, Philip Debate, what would be your
argument as to why Alan became mentally impaired and started confessing. Okay,
you're gonna love this. He said, because the jail is
starving him by giving him processed food with attitudes in it.
(11:24):
That he has gone something again to the twinkie defense,
and he started confessing. Well, what I've learned is Cheryl
that the killer and Delphi his family. Once he started
confessing to them, his family began to turn against him,
although they're showing up in court, and he thought that
(11:47):
he would never be reunited with them in life and
decided the only way you can get back with his
family is in heaven. And to get to heaven he
had to confess. Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
But I want to ask one more thing, is is
your old role as a prosecutor? When the police were
talking to him before he knew there was a video,
he described what he was wearing that day and described
the blue jacket, jeans and a hat.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Well, again it's the Scott Peterson placing yourself there. I
mean he places himself at the scene of the crime,
at the time of the crime. One thing I think
is bothering the jury because I believe they asked a
question about it. The jewors are actually getting to ask questions.
(12:36):
They write them down, they give them to the judge,
will to the bill. If the bill gives it to
the judge. The lawyers meet, they turn on that static
sound game so the jury can't hear them. If one
or both have an objection, they lodge the objection. That
goes on to the record. The judg decides if she
is going to allow the question. Then she asked the questions.
(12:59):
I believe that they are are curious about the lapse
in the cell phone where the cell phone should no
activity for a period of hours. Now, to me, it's
pretty easy to understand because it's happened to me, where
all of a sudden I get a torrent of text
(13:19):
messages and they won day to back months and months
and months of ke how can this be because it
was obviously about something that was happening, like you know,
just pretend my mom's birthday or day be getting the
car fixed, something like that, and it was months later,
I'm like, why is this coming now? That has actually happened.
(13:39):
But more more often, I don't get texts for a
period of minutes or hours that all of a sudden
a string comes in and I don't know why that happens,
but I know that it does happen. So somebody better
get up there on the stand and explain that, because
the defense is exploiting that by saying, well, her phone
was turned off, or the bodies removed, or they were
(14:00):
taken somewhere else in return to this location, which doesn't
make any sense. Plus, the ground is saturated with blood
where they were found, which means and that's where they
were killed. But that could lead to some.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Sort of doubt, Nancy.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Everybody has had their phone get so hot the phone
cuts itself down. If you go snowskin, it's the same principle.
If it gets too cold, it's going to shut itself down.
She was cold, they were wet. That phone could have
literally powered down because of temperature.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yes, it could have. My phone powers down a lot
when it's hot. You're right, Cheryl, I've never had the reverse.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Right, but the reverse will be true. So again, you
think that water, I mean that was melted snow.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
That water was freezing.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So again, you've got wet clothes, you've got wet bodies,
you've got wet ground.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
That's going to happen. I think you know.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
One of the witnesses got angry at the defense, lashed
out on cross examination, and then it did not behoove
the state at all. I wish that hadn't happened. I
don't blame the witness, but that didn't work out well
for the state. I think it led to some people
believing the witness had credibility problems. The witness has said
(15:18):
she saw the bridge guy muddy and then bloody and
then muddy and bloody. Essentially, it's what happened. But when
you see someone coming in mud and or blood, how
do you differentiate between that at a.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Distance, especially when you're not looking for anybody. Think how
many people pass you every day. You're not looking at
them as far as I better remember what they look like.
It's only when somebody stands out what stood out to
her is the appearance.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So you can only get so much.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I mean, it's happening in you know, hundreds of a second,
You're like, there's a guy, he looks really bloody and muddy.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
It is. It's really weird. It's like the waist down.
What would occur? Is he hurt?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And then you're almost a little frightened. So you can
only in your mind gather so much information, especially if
you're not trained.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
To do that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
You know, this blue Carharrent jacket six hour two twenty
six forty caliber A forty S and W cartridge. I
wouldn't keepsake box from indresser. Now what do you make
of the item seized at his home?
Speaker 1 (16:31):
You know, I'm extremely curious about the motorcycle cover, wanting
to hear why they took the aquapena bottle, but the
twenty three devices. When you are telling me you're going
to keep a pager, you're going.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
To keep flip phones, but you don't keep a phone
that was associated with you being at the scene of
a double murder of two children that you know has
a GPS, has timestamp that can show Hey, in case
y'all don't know exactly when I was there, here it is.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
And again he's claiming he was on the bridge. Well,
he don't claim he saw another man anywhere. He doesn't
claim he sees victims, Nancy. He only claims he sees
the three girls that he knows live to identify him,
because the other two didn't live to identify it.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I'm just thinking, through everything that's happening, I wonder why
the jury is reacting. I mean, I know how the
family's reacting, but what are they thinking. I would stop
at the end of every day of trial. I would
stand alone in front of the jury box and try
to reconstruct what each jury are, how they behaved, and
(17:58):
I would make a count at the end of every day. Okay,
I think I've got this one. Aunt tell them about
that one. This one's a problem, and whoever was a
problem I would argue directly to them or ask questions
looking at them, tried to connect with that is your
(18:18):
r the whole next day. I mean, it's really it's
an art and a science. Cheryl and and All. I
always say, once you've got twelve of the box, your
case is done.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
But I'll tell you, I think the jury being able
to ask questions.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
For you, you would.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Be able to say, Okay, I know where they're headed
because this is what they're asking, and you would be
able on the fly to help them and navigate where
they needed you to go. But I want to just
say one more thing because I know you and I
know how you would have ended this whole thing so far.
Everybody in that town, and you and I have been
(18:58):
to Delphi multiple time. Those posters, those composites were everywhere,
every place you could eat, every hotel, every gas station,
everybody in that town. When Kelsey put it out on
social media showed up. You remember Grandma when she explained
it looked like, you know, lightning bugs all through the woods.
(19:20):
There were so many flashlights and people everybody in that
town stopped what they were doing looking for those children.
When Richard Allen, the police guide him and were talking
to him.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
He got up and left.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
To me, is so clear, And when I read all
these crazy conspiracy theories online, I just hope that's not
infecting the jury. What do you know about where the
jury is staying and how they're being handled.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
I don't know anything, but from what I've just heard
of the people say that it's a very seamless event.
They are picked up, they're put right there at the courthouse.
They stayed pretty much there, Lunch is brought to them,
and they're taken right back. They have very limited access
to the outside vote.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I know that one juror was unable to watch when
new pictures were shown in court. I'm glad that jury
is facing strict rules. I know it's a pain in
the behind, but strict rules regarding what they can watch,
where they can go, because the last thing you want
is a problem with the jury. Look what it's done
in Murdoch. I mean, I do not believe that Becky
(20:29):
Hill swayed the jury. Do I think she may have
said inappropriate comments like hey, y'all going to reach the
quick verdict? He he things of that nature. I don't think
it affected the outcome of the trial. But I think
out of the to avoid the appearance of impropriety, that
there's going to have to be a new trial because
(20:51):
of jury misheddling, even in an innocent way, not intended
to hurt the jury, not intended to sway that you're
but it happened. We don't want that in Delphi. We
do not want that in Delphi.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
That's right. Absolutely. I want to ask you one more thing.
I have a theory about the phone.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
So Abby is wearing Libby's pants, right, and they're wet
because there's no way to get wet pants back on
somebody that is their pants.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
So she's smaller, so that can happen.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I believe that phone was in that back pocket and
when he drug her into position, it simply came out
of the back pocket.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Oh, that reminds me of something one of this year
ars asked the question was the earth and or the
leaves under I guess it was Abby's body disturbed? Now
why did they want to know that?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Well?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I think it goes to what I'm saying. Was she
drug so if the earth under her was disturbed, they
would be able to know that. So was she put
into place? Was he staging the scene. Is that why
they're two feet from the blood. So again, if those
pants were put on her deliberately, because remember they were
unbuttoned on zipped, she didn't hike that way.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
So again, it looks like to me that's what would.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Have occurred, that he's putting them where he wants them
to stage that sin.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Agree, Okay, Cheryl, I'll see in Delphi. We knew it
was coming, now it's here.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I can't wait to see you, and I know the
family is grateful you're coming.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Bye friend, Bye Bebby
Welcome to the Crime Roundup Live from Delphi. I'm Cheryl
McCollum with the one and only Nancy Gray.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You know, Cheryl, I've been listening to a lot of
your crime roundups plus what's with you, tap Might and Delphi.
It sounds like you've been up to a four am
what's happening?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I was driving until about two am, sure enough. But
before we go any further, Happy birthday you.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I thought for sure i'd flame out before now. So
every day is gravy man, everything.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
It is absolutely icing all the time.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Every time I'd walk through one of those projects without
a god, I'd say, well, this.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Is it, this is how it's gonna go. Yep, I
ain't thinking in this way.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
We got some things that have been happen in the
last couple of days, and I've just got to get
your tay as a former prosecutor, about how you think
they're building this case. But the first thing I want
to ask you about is Richard Allen changing his height
on his fishing license.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Now, isn't that amazing? Because I really really hated that
you could not be with us last night when we
did in MSN Mayor Street Media's Crime Stories, because I
wanted to talk to you about not necessarily that very thing,
but something related changing and I'm circling back. I'm not
(01:40):
avoiding changing his appearance. And I compare it to, of course,
Scott Peterson. You know, I hate using the same examples,
but they're just so fertile, they're rich with comparisons. Scott
Peterson dying is hearing growing a goatee. And then you got,
as soon as the survivor was Dylan Mortenson where it
(02:01):
could have been Bethany said, the had bushy eyebrows and
x y Z. He immediately fixed that, Brian Kohberger. And
now he's getting a different kind of a metrosexual look.
The changing of the appearance, because if you look at
photos Richard Allen, for instance, the one where he's out
(02:24):
with his wife at a restaurant slash bar, and he's
sitting directly in front of a composite sketch of him. Yes,
he looks you know, you know, let me just say heavier.
He looks much more like the man on the bridge,
the bridge guy. And now he's just withering away. He's
(02:46):
intentionally doing this. He's got that well, had that horrible
goatee and it looks like cousin it has jumped on
his chin. But what I'm saying, and that's a personal choice,
you know, fine, go for it. But if anyone see
he's trying to change his appearance to differentiate himself as
(03:08):
much as possible from the bridge guy.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
He knows he was seen on the bridge, So of
course that's what he's doing. And I'll tell you you,
more than anybody I have ever known, could take one
sentence out of fifty thousand pieces of evidence and make
it so prevalent that it would just slap the jury
in the face every day. And we found out that
(03:34):
when they went to his home and was talking to him.
And it's all over now, Amen, I could see that
big at Dallas on a poster board.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
It doesn't matter, it's over. I mean, I've.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Had a cop come to our house. Let's see. The
twins were about three and we loved I believe I've
told you this before. We love to go I return
a little Methodist church. Don't ask me how this happened.
I never did this as a child, but apparently both
the twins loved it. They would look for bugs, they
were bug investigators, and we would catch bugs and look
(04:12):
for bugs and dig under rocks for bugs. And there
was this walkway over at the church that had rocks
on the edges and we would play for hours and
hours before I would have to go to work at CNM. Anyway,
a vehicle, a big monster truck, came flying through the
(04:33):
parking lot and came straight at the twins. We were
kind of on the corner on the very curve, the
most dangerous place to be, but there was never any
traffic there. I jumped from him and pushed the twins back,
and of course got the tag, and the monster truck
scrooched off, you know, burning rubber. Well, of course I
(04:56):
called the police, so you know, was a while later.
Two cops came to the door, and I can tell
you this. I said, well, come on in, can I
make you some coffee? Would you like a bottle of water?
Blah blah blah. I don't say, well, holme a wrist up,
go on and cut me. It's all over now.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
I didn't do that, No, And I would love to.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Argue to Jerry's. When you see the GBI pulling up
behind you, you may tap your brakes for a moment,
but you don't take off at one five mph. Why
because you don't have a dead body in your trunk,
you don't have dope under your seat, you're not carrying
an illegal weapon, you don't have a warrant out for
(05:42):
your Sorry, we're end. So why did he say that,
you're so right, Cherl? That would be at the top.
It's all over now.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
It's right exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Can we just hit on the fact too, that when
he knew he had been seen, So that's why he said, Hey, yeah,
I was on the bridge.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
I just want joll to know I was looking at
fish but.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Scott Peterson and Scott Peterson, yeah, I was golfing until
he found out the marina workers saw him. I'm trying
to back the boat in. Then he went, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
is that the marina?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
The same thing here?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And you know it's driving me crazy online all the
crazy conspiracy theories.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Cover up. You know you can't have it both ways.
That you cannot argue the cops are stupid, which they're not,
and this is an elaborate cover up. Okay, you have
to pick which way you're gonna go. You can't have
forty five and an elaborate cover up that has somehow
managed to withstand all of this scrutiny because you know,
(06:45):
if there was a cover up, the defense would be
that would be their banner and they would be, you know,
rancing around the courtroom waving the flag cover up.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And if they're gonna set somebody up, it's not gonna
be with one unspent bullet. There's no way they would
have knowled that would have matched his phone. That's just
like when they said, oh, the cops planted blood at
OJ's you know, Nicole Brown's theme from OJ. They didn't
know OJ was hurt. They wouldn't have put his blood
anywhere they didn't know he was cut.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
That ain't how people.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Get set up. People get set up. Oh there's a
bag of dope right down on your back seat.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I can see now, CHERYLD, Can I just explain something.
I've tried to come up with an easy way to
explain it. And when I get to Delphi, I hope
you join me on crime stories. But I can tell
you where Cheryl mccomb's going to be. She's going to
be at the meet in three because there is one
around the courthouse that's right right, there is one. Ours
was Megabar yes, do you remember Megabar? I do ernest
(07:45):
and I lived at Megabar yep, my investigator because they
had fresh turnips every day. Anyway, that said, that's where
I'll find Cheryl. I might as well, you know what,
I need to just go ahead and call production, tell
them we're moving to the meet and three because we
need Cheryl mccollumn. If she's not leaving until she gets
that form bread, that is not happening.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Listen, is going to be me and seventy five attorneys,
you know.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Okay, And now for Cheryl and the meat and three
and moving production. This is what I want to talk
to you about. Just cycling a bullet through a gun,
not firing it dense the bullet cycling is just the
act of loading or unloading a round into the chamber.
But what it does. It can cycling a bullet through
(08:34):
a gun dense the bullet knows and that can be
matched back like a fingerprint to the gun. It's microscope
that you don't see it. The bullet still looks even
shiny to you to the naked eye, just as a
bullet that's been fired, unless has been you know, destroyed
(08:54):
in some way, looks like you have to look under
a microscope to see that in and those.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Tool markings correct.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
So I'm anxious for that to come out. I need
you to explain it for me when I get back
to DELFI.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, I'm waiting on that, and I'm telling you the
placement where it was found is also critical.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Between the two bodies.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That to me is extraordinarily telling because that thing, when
it's ejected, goes to the right and slightly back, so
if it's between the two of them, he was pointing
that gun.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
At one of them, who I believe was Abby.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Why do you say, Abby, I'm curious. I don't disagree
or agree. I'm just curious.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Because if you're looking straight away, Abby's to the left,
Libby's to the right, and he's right handed right in
that bullets between them, so it would have ejected to
the right and slightly back, landing between the two of them.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
You know, that makes perfect sense. Yesterday I was thinking
last night, I focused a lot on the fact that
Libby's injuries were so much worse than well, they're both
slash dead their throats, so it's hard. It's like parsing words,
you know, mincing, splitting hairs, but there was an absolute
(10:14):
disregard leaving. In addition to the murder, leaving Libby unclothed.
First slashes to her neck were worse. Just trying to
figure out if she had been his object of desire,
if she had been his target, maybe she could have
been as simple as she brought back, or she said
(10:37):
something back that made him angry. But just think about
all the times he watched these girls come in and
out of that pharmacy. Oh, this is what I'm waiting on.
I'm waiting on the confessions because I guarantee you this
guy revealed so much about the crime scene that was
never stated publicly. I had. He's a great lawyer, Philip Debate,
(11:04):
How can you argue, Philip Debate, what would be your
argument as to why Alan became mentally impaired and started confessing. Okay,
you're gonna love this. He said, because the jail is
starving him by giving him processed food with attitudes in it.
(11:24):
That he has gone something again to the twinkie defense,
and he started confessing. Well, what I've learned is Cheryl
that the killer and Delphi his family. Once he started
confessing to them, his family began to turn against him,
although they're showing up in court, and he thought that
(11:47):
he would never be reunited with them in life and
decided the only way you can get back with his
family is in heaven. And to get to heaven he
had to confess. Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
But I want to ask one more thing, is is
your old role as a prosecutor? When the police were
talking to him before he knew there was a video,
he described what he was wearing that day and described
the blue jacket, jeans and a hat.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Well, again it's the Scott Peterson placing yourself there. I
mean he places himself at the scene of the crime,
at the time of the crime. One thing I think
is bothering the jury because I believe they asked a
question about it. The jewors are actually getting to ask questions.
(12:36):
They write them down, they give them to the judge,
will to the bill. If the bill gives it to
the judge. The lawyers meet, they turn on that static
sound game so the jury can't hear them. If one
or both have an objection, they lodge the objection. That
goes on to the record. The judg decides if she
is going to allow the question. Then she asked the questions.
(12:59):
I believe that they are are curious about the lapse
in the cell phone where the cell phone should no
activity for a period of hours. Now, to me, it's
pretty easy to understand because it's happened to me, where
all of a sudden I get a torrent of text
(13:19):
messages and they won day to back months and months
and months of ke how can this be because it
was obviously about something that was happening, like you know,
just pretend my mom's birthday or day be getting the
car fixed, something like that, and it was months later,
I'm like, why is this coming now? That has actually happened.
(13:39):
But more more often, I don't get texts for a
period of minutes or hours that all of a sudden
a string comes in and I don't know why that happens,
but I know that it does happen. So somebody better
get up there on the stand and explain that, because
the defense is exploiting that by saying, well, her phone
was turned off, or the bodies removed, or they were
(14:00):
taken somewhere else in return to this location, which doesn't
make any sense. Plus, the ground is saturated with blood
where they were found, which means and that's where they
were killed. But that could lead to some.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Sort of doubt, Nancy.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Everybody has had their phone get so hot the phone
cuts itself down. If you go snowskin, it's the same principle.
If it gets too cold, it's going to shut itself down.
She was cold, they were wet. That phone could have
literally powered down because of temperature.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yes, it could have. My phone powers down a lot
when it's hot. You're right, Cheryl, I've never had the reverse.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Right, but the reverse will be true. So again, you
think that water, I mean that was melted snow.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
That water was freezing.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So again, you've got wet clothes, you've got wet bodies,
you've got wet ground.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
That's going to happen. I think you know.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
One of the witnesses got angry at the defense, lashed
out on cross examination, and then it did not behoove
the state at all. I wish that hadn't happened. I
don't blame the witness, but that didn't work out well
for the state. I think it led to some people
believing the witness had credibility problems. The witness has said
(15:18):
she saw the bridge guy muddy and then bloody and
then muddy and bloody. Essentially, it's what happened. But when
you see someone coming in mud and or blood, how
do you differentiate between that at a.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Distance, especially when you're not looking for anybody. Think how
many people pass you every day. You're not looking at
them as far as I better remember what they look like.
It's only when somebody stands out what stood out to
her is the appearance.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So you can only get so much.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I mean, it's happening in you know, hundreds of a second,
You're like, there's a guy, he looks really bloody and muddy.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
It is. It's really weird. It's like the waist down.
What would occur? Is he hurt?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And then you're almost a little frightened. So you can
only in your mind gather so much information, especially if
you're not trained.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
To do that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
You know, this blue Carharrent jacket six hour two twenty
six forty caliber A forty S and W cartridge. I
wouldn't keepsake box from indresser. Now what do you make
of the item seized at his home?
Speaker 1 (16:31):
You know, I'm extremely curious about the motorcycle cover, wanting
to hear why they took the aquapena bottle, but the
twenty three devices. When you are telling me you're going
to keep a pager, you're going.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
To keep flip phones, but you don't keep a phone
that was associated with you being at the scene of
a double murder of two children that you know has
a GPS, has timestamp that can show Hey, in case
y'all don't know exactly when I was there, here it is.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
And again he's claiming he was on the bridge. Well,
he don't claim he saw another man anywhere. He doesn't
claim he sees victims, Nancy. He only claims he sees
the three girls that he knows live to identify him,
because the other two didn't live to identify it.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I'm just thinking, through everything that's happening, I wonder why
the jury is reacting. I mean, I know how the
family's reacting, but what are they thinking. I would stop
at the end of every day of trial. I would
stand alone in front of the jury box and try
to reconstruct what each jury are, how they behaved, and
(17:58):
I would make a count at the end of every day. Okay,
I think I've got this one. Aunt tell them about
that one. This one's a problem, and whoever was a
problem I would argue directly to them or ask questions
looking at them, tried to connect with that is your
(18:18):
r the whole next day. I mean, it's really it's
an art and a science. Cheryl and and All. I
always say, once you've got twelve of the box, your
case is done.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
But I'll tell you, I think the jury being able
to ask questions.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
For you, you would.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Be able to say, Okay, I know where they're headed
because this is what they're asking, and you would be
able on the fly to help them and navigate where
they needed you to go. But I want to just
say one more thing because I know you and I
know how you would have ended this whole thing so far.
Everybody in that town, and you and I have been
(18:58):
to Delphi multiple time. Those posters, those composites were everywhere,
every place you could eat, every hotel, every gas station,
everybody in that town. When Kelsey put it out on
social media showed up. You remember Grandma when she explained
it looked like, you know, lightning bugs all through the woods.
(19:20):
There were so many flashlights and people everybody in that
town stopped what they were doing looking for those children.
When Richard Allen, the police guide him and were talking
to him.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
He got up and left.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
To me, is so clear, And when I read all
these crazy conspiracy theories online, I just hope that's not
infecting the jury. What do you know about where the
jury is staying and how they're being handled.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
I don't know anything, but from what I've just heard
of the people say that it's a very seamless event.
They are picked up, they're put right there at the courthouse.
They stayed pretty much there, Lunch is brought to them,
and they're taken right back. They have very limited access
to the outside vote.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I know that one juror was unable to watch when
new pictures were shown in court. I'm glad that jury
is facing strict rules. I know it's a pain in
the behind, but strict rules regarding what they can watch,
where they can go, because the last thing you want
is a problem with the jury. Look what it's done
in Murdoch. I mean, I do not believe that Becky
(20:29):
Hill swayed the jury. Do I think she may have
said inappropriate comments like hey, y'all going to reach the
quick verdict? He he things of that nature. I don't think
it affected the outcome of the trial. But I think
out of the to avoid the appearance of impropriety, that
there's going to have to be a new trial because
(20:51):
of jury misheddling, even in an innocent way, not intended
to hurt the jury, not intended to sway that you're
but it happened. We don't want that in Delphi. We
do not want that in Delphi.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
That's right. Absolutely. I want to ask you one more thing.
I have a theory about the phone.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
So Abby is wearing Libby's pants, right, and they're wet
because there's no way to get wet pants back on
somebody that is their pants.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
So she's smaller, so that can happen.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I believe that phone was in that back pocket and
when he drug her into position, it simply came out
of the back pocket.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Oh, that reminds me of something one of this year
ars asked the question was the earth and or the
leaves under I guess it was Abby's body disturbed? Now
why did they want to know that?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Well?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I think it goes to what I'm saying. Was she
drug so if the earth under her was disturbed, they
would be able to know that. So was she put
into place? Was he staging the scene. Is that why
they're two feet from the blood. So again, if those
pants were put on her deliberately, because remember they were
unbuttoned on zipped, she didn't hike that way.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
So again, it looks like to me that's what would.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Have occurred, that he's putting them where he wants them
to stage that sin.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Agree, Okay, Cheryl, I'll see in Delphi. We knew it
was coming, now it's here.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I can't wait to see you, and I know the
family is grateful you're coming.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Bye friend, Bye Bebby
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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