November 1, 2024 • 23 mins
Today’s CRU Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum bring listeners into the courtroom and behind the scenes at the Delphi murder case trial. Nancy and Sheryl give on-the-ground detailed observations from the courtroom, including interactions with the victims' composed families and Richard Allen's unexpected behavior. They critically analyze Allen's chronological confessions, and some of the hate both have experienced covering this trial.
Previous Zone 7 Episodes Covering The Delphi Case -
The latest on the Delphi murders: Delphi murders hearing, JonBenet Ramsey #news, Idaho student murders update | Headline #Crime
Previous Zone 7 episode about Delphi murders: The Delphi Murders: The Quest for Justice with Barbara MacDonald
Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi written by: Susan Hendricks
The Delphi Murders: Case Refresher as Jury Selection Starts | Susan Hendricks
10.25.24 with Nancy Grace: Delphi Murders Evidence, Allen’s Statement and Behavior
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:10) Today’s CRU is dedicated to Delphi from the road!
- (1:00) Dephi courtroom observations
- (2:45) Analyzing Richard Allen’s statements and behavior
- (6:00) The significance of Allen’s organized, chronological confessions
- (13:30) Behind the scenes and personal anecdotes
- (18:00) Negative community response
- (20:30) Closing thoughts
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is a special crime round up. Nancy, Grace and
I have been in Delphi boots on the ground. Nancy, welcome,
Welcome to Crime round Up. Home.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Cheryl, I'm happy to be and Yer'll learned a lot
in Delphi.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You can't hardly even explain to people what it's like,
but I know for me it's the first time in
probably thirty years, I've had to sit in court and
take notes on a legal path.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
You know, I took nuts too. I think I took
about eight or nine pages in the morning session alone,
because so much was happening. I got to sit near
the families and victims. They were extremely composed, but at
(00:57):
certain points started crying.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
It's just about my heart, Sheryl.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
You know, I saw the family do something, Nancy, I've
never seen in my life. And just so people understand,
that courtroom has four rows of seats on both sides,
about nine seats per role. It's one of the smallest
courtrooms I've ever seen. But those benches are wooden.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
They're hard.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
The German family brought cushions for people, and Becky brought
banana bread every morning. I mean, I've never seen a
victim's family, take care of media and guest and other
experts in my life.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Well, I will say I took the cushion and stayed
away from.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
The banana bread.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I took both, Honey, they gave.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Me an awesome cushion. I was sitting next to Susan.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Hendrix, beside and behind family members. Let's see, there were
a lot of local media on the front row. The
judge gives them my special seat because they have been
covering this dealing for the Get Goat.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
There were several YouTubers.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
I'm not familiar with any of them, but they were
there diligently taking notes.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I observed.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Richard Allen's wife and I believe it was his stepfather
sitting in court. I believe the stepfather fell asleep the
other day and got reprimanded.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, and listen, I gotta ask you something because I
know this happened to me and Charlene, and I know
what happened to Susan Hendrix and Barbara McDonald.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Did Richard Allen look directly at you?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yes, he did, and I was looking right back at
him too.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
It was really a little disconcerting, But he's super aware
of who was in that courtroom.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I'll tell you that I didn't find.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
It disconcerting at all.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, to me, here's what's disconcerting in our day that
would never happen. That he's able to stare down a
family that wouldn't happen. So I didn't like that part.
I don't think Kelsey or Becky or any of them
should be subjected to that.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Well, I agree with you, but ope the court room
he can do if he wants to. It's just highly disrespectful, Sheryl,
would you expect anything less?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
No, But let's talk about what has just come out.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So yesterday, you know they were talking about Richard Allen
said that he saw this white band and it quotes
spooked him and that's.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
The reason he didn't rape them.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
When you and I were talking yesterday, I could not
believe he said that, and you and I had the
same reaction. This defendant has just given us the reason
there wasn't DNA.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Because he got spooked in did not complete the rate.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
That blew my mind because all these people that are
defending him or saying they gave him discovery he knew
about the white van. He might have known about the
white van, but he just gave us motive that it
was rape and the reason he didn't complete it that
wasn't in discovery that came from him.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Well, hold on just a moment, just a moment. I
recall him saying a van. I don't know that I
recall him saying a white man. I got to look
at my notes. But that said, the fact that he
said he saw a van and that interrupted him from
raping the girls, no one else knew other than the killer,
(04:40):
that the property owner that would come by at at
the time, at the same time as the girls were
being killed. No one knew that he drew the van
except the killer. Who else would have seen it but
the killer?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
And there's no way anybody would have known.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
He got off work early that day and would have
been home by two thirty five.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
You know another issue.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
That you were bringing up that some people would argue, Well,
Richard Allen got that information through his lawyers.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
During discovery. I really believe this.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Day needs to make a giant flow chart about what
he confessed to. When he confessed to it, was it
before his defense journey's got discovery And I don't know
that a neighbor coming home driving a van would have
(05:34):
been in discovery that is not discoverable. Information who the
neighbor is to joining the property, and what kind of
vehicle they drive is not traditional discovery. Discovery is defendant statements,
exculpatory evidence under Brady B. Maryland, science, scientific reports such
as DNA or autopsy reports, witness names, address his phone numbers.
(06:00):
That's all discoverable. But who owns the property and what
kind of him will they drive? It's not discoverable. So
I am not convinced that the defense had that information
and or that they handed that particular piece of information
over to their client.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
And I imagine I'd.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Be willing to invent sure that he stated that before
discovery was handed over.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Absolutely, And just this morning I thought, Nancy Grace is
going to be doing backflips because you and I back
in the day when somebody would tell a story and
it was in chronological order that rang true. Richard Allen
told the story that he went to his parents, he
(06:49):
bought beer, he went home and got a jacket, He
went to the bridge, he followed the girls, he did
something with the gun, then he said down the hill.
Then he killed them because the van spooked him. Now, Nancy,
that is chronological that is factual, and he added things
we didn't know.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Like fumbling with the gun and the van spookiny.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Well, as a matter of fact, Cheryl, he actually says,
I think that's when I must have.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Dropped the bullet.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
The doctor this morning, the defense witness who was over
the behavioral division said, if it is organized and there
is a chain to the story, they could be faking psychosis.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Well, you know the shrink that was up, she got
shredded on cross.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
But what I found really interesting about her direct testimony.
You know, Walla wasn't that impressed with her direct testimony
because she had not prepared herself to take the stand.
The state had to direct her on multiple occasions to
a page number and a paragraph number so she could
reread in order to answer the question.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
But what really did impress me about her was her.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Copious notes that she took upon meeting with the defendant.
Every single time she outlined his confessions, how he repeatedly confessed,
how he asked to call his wife to tell his
wife that he did it with his family still love him,
that he may not see her again until he got
the electric chair, that he wanted closure by signing his
(08:28):
confession that he had gotten the lord behind bars and
he wanted to confess, and he said, she won't believe me,
and he called the wife again in front of the shrink.
The strength had given him privacy during the first conversation
with wife, called her back and said she doesn't believe me,
(08:49):
and the strain heard him confess again to the white
and that is when the wife said, stop saying that,
stop talking, called the defense lawyer. And right after that,
Richard Allen starts eating paper, drinking out of the toilet,
hitting his.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Head on the wall, and play with his pood.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
You know what, I'm not a shrink, but I don't
need a doctorate in behavioral study to know that there
was an abrupt change in his behavior. What's His wife
got to hold the lawyers and they told him to
stop talking.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Nancy.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
The one person in your life you won't to think
well of you, you want to impress, you want to
love you forever is your mama.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
He told her, I did it. I did it, And.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
When she said you couldn't have, he said, but I did.
And then she even said to him, they're messing with you.
And he said to his mama, they're not He told
the one person.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
That above everybody else, he should want to.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Not give any harm to any sadness to He would
not stop telling hurry did it and name.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Them by name. I killed adving and living.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Another thing, Cheryl, that you've already noticed, I'm sure, is
that he knew in his early confessions that the bridge.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Guy had a gun. He said, I had a gun.
That's where I must have dropped a bulling. He knew
so much of the information that only the killer would
have had. America. They didn't put it out there that.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
The bridge guy, the killer, had a gun. They didn't
put out the cause and mode of death, that's right.
They didn't put out there about the branches. They didn't
put out there that the girls both were stripped and
one was redressed. His confessions came before all of that
started leaking out, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
That's what I would be arguing to the jury.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Absolutely. And what was so critical to me about him
using the word branches. If you look at the crime scene,
there are branches all over it. But that also blows
up these people that are still on the oldness train,
because there weren't sticks and twigs. He mentioned branches, and
that's exactly what you see.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
I'm just so impressed by the victims family, how they
are all maintaining so much dignity in that courtroom. Ohen, Cheryl,
you know who I love.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
She is as sharp as a pack. The eighty three
year old Kathy.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
That is the volunteer that realized, wait a minute, wait
a minute, this is right, the case was cold. She
started me digging through the document. Okay, she saw this
document in the name Richard Allen Whiteman. She's got to
thinking and the street the road listed for where he lived.
(11:55):
And she's the one that figured out Richard Allen placing
it self on the bridge at the time they believe
the girls were killed. And that bold that woman had
not been in that spot at that time and noticed
that one piece of paper, Sheryl, this case would never
(12:17):
have been cracked.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
And I got to tell you, this woman is as
sharp as attack.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I so enjoyed talking to her. And she's little, tiny, tiny, Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Now I know she doesn't have a blonde hair, I
know that, but she wry at me.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Doris Day in her later years, when she devoted herself
to animal activism, she just had that big smile and
that just a spark of life out she just I thought,
I think she's amazing. Now another thing I want to
talk to you about. I like the judge also, she
rules with an iron fist.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
And when we lood gaze in the courtroom, I almost
looked away, but I'm like, I am damned if I'm
going to look away.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Same ways when I looked at Richard Allen.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
But then as lawyer has jumped in between us, I
guess so I couldn't get a good analysis, but I
saw plenty, Cheryl. Why is everybody hating on us because
we think Alan is guilty?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Nancy.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
There are people that are just condensed that he has
been mistreated and that's the only reason he has said
the things had done the things that he's done.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
I know that, But why they hate Cheryl. I don't
hate them because they think he's innocent.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
They were all so much hate, Well I would I
just want to say something because I think there is
a lot of misinformation. The night before court you got
to experience the salad wheels, so you were already in town.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
I was wondering when we were going to get to
the salad wheel?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Was that not incredible though?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Just the I would not have known about it.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
I was booking the interset and I'm like, okay, where
am I going to go?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Another salad at Chipotle?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Now Jack may not to confess anything about texting while driving.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Because I would never.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
I actually did a voice control Cheryl, because there's no
way I could text when I'm driving. I said, Okay,
I know Cheryl calls and at least one of her
sisters has got to know where to eat it, so
coming from ural Big County where there is nothing, Although
at this moment David and I are fighting over the
last pictures Hamburger floated with mustard and onions because I'd
(14:29):
go to a meeting and bacon today. But Cheryl ries,
you must go to Mountain Jax. And I'm like, I
can't unless they have a salad.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
I'm not going.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
And she said, and Cheryl writes back, have you ever
heard of a salad wheel? And in Alliver Wissom had
actually taken pictures.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Of the tound wheel at Mountain Jack's. So there I go,
and it was awesome. It was awesome, and you were
right about the dressing, I might add to.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Which is this frothy pink stuff and the ranch I mean,
you have to have the ranch, even if you're on
a diet like I haven't since I was twelve.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
But it was awesome. Thank you, Cheryl, you pulled me through.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
But I want people to understand, starting the night before
you are boots on the ground, you're going to different locations.
You're going to different places to map this once again
in your head and timing it. Then you get in
line to get into the court in the dark. Now,
a lot of people said she lived early, y'all, she
had to leave early because she's got a TV show.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I mean, I don't know how people don't get that.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
You don't know what Cheryl, you know. I don't care.
I just I hate to even waste my energy on
the naysayers.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
You listen to them, Cheryl McCollum, no train would ever
come true, that you would ever be completed. You and
I be hiding under under our beds right now because
of what's some anonymous person that has nothing better to
do than to go online and whine and coup whining
about Sheryl and Nancy. What don't don't they have a job. Yes,
(16:12):
I got there when it was still dark. I sent
out a picture because you know, it was beautiful the sky,
believe it or not. With the the sun finally started
coming up. I got up at uh three five in
order to get there. When the sun finally started just
peeking up, the whole sky over the courthouse turned and lavender,
(16:34):
not peak, not blue, lavender. I try to take a
picture of it with my phone and I couldn't capture
the color it really was.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
But yes, I was out there in the cold.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
But I don't hear what they say or what they
think they know. All I care about is a true verdict.
Screw them and the horse they rode in on that
is a gray slash Linch family say.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I just wanted to say too, Lavender was Libby's favorite color.
That wasn't lost all my stars.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
You're so right. Also, let me just tell you. I stayed,
and I stayed, and I stayed.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
And it was getting to almost eleven, and I knew
that they were expecting outside the courthouse at about ten twenty,
and I stayed, and I stayed, and I stayed, and
finally I knew that we were going to lose our
control room in New York City.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Another show gets it.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
At twelve, and I knew if I didn't get out there,
none of us would make air. And I had experts, lawyers, shrinks,
a blood expert, an old and expert that literally wrote
the book on hope, visit brotherhood.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Susan Hendrick ran out at last minute, jumped in with me.
People don't understand it.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
I don't expect them to understand it, just like I
don't understand their jobs.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
But yeah, yeah, I'm taking a beating, But so what.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Well, I just want to tell you I know personally
what you coming there in person meant to the families.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So I'm going to say that out loud because I
know it, because.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
They told me, and every single person that's got something
to say negative. My question is what have you done
for the families? I tell you, what have you done
for Richard Allen? Have you written him a letter? Have
you done anything for his wife? Her world got completely
blown up. The people that are going to complain the most,
(18:38):
I can guarantee you have done the least. And Nancy Grace,
since I was twenty one years old, you have set
the standard for what victim advocacy means. You left your children,
your family, your pets, your home. You went to Delphi
by yourself, stood in line in the dark, in the cold,
(19:01):
You got in that courtroom stage as long as you could,
hugged everybody you could, were respectful to everybody, and I
know it was noticed and appreciated, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I appreciate that. I really do. I have to tell you.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
You know me for a long time, Cheryl. I don't
give a flying fig. I'm gonna do what I think
is right, and if anybody else doesn't like it, and
that includes you, shut up, David.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Then I can't help that.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
I am not gonna go to my grave saying I
should have. I would have, I could have, but you
know what, I fail. I'm gonna at least try it.
They don't like it again, screw them and the horse
they rode in on.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Okay, the whole barn, the whole barn, and I'm gonna
take some money. We are too cute and we have
no regret. So let's just ride on. So I appreciate you.
I am headed out of town. Your head back into town,
and I'll see you next week.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Well hold on, David.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
He wants to be recognized for of being left to
take care out of the twins, not of the cat,
the dog, the guinea pigs.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
But my mother, Okay, David, that was an oversight, and
I apologize.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Not only should I have.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Started with you, what do you think so far of
the defense?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Pitiful to put your first witness up there and she's
gonna basically say, yeah, he's probably faking it because he
told it in order. But I also observed was their
questions were to clear up what they believe. So if
you hear their questions, I think absolutely they are understanding
what the prosecution is laid out.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
There's no doubt in my mind. Hey, but I have
one thing I do think we need to end on.
I was so impressed with.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Every single deputy and officer in and around that courthouse.
They were kind, they were helpful, they were patient. They
ran that security like a clock. Honey, oh yeah, I was.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Watching the clock. We've been standing out there.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
I don't know how long to get in, and Susan said,
they will open this door at precisely eight o'clock.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
And they did. They have it down to the minute.
Everything they do is to the minute.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
They're so polite, not just to me, but to everybody
that went in before me and the people that I
heard come in after me.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
They were just they were just great.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Sharp, absolutely, and you know right before this happened.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
There's no days off, there's no leaving early, doesn't matter
if it's a wedding, anniversary, of birthday, party, or just
a vacation you would planned.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
None of that's happened.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Nothing is happening, but this trial in Delphi right now, Okay,
can I go to tell you something?
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Speaking of birthday, I had a birthday and those sheriffs
took away my birthday present.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
David.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Now you know, about two years ago he gave me
a fitbit, this fake gold mash I always wear on
my right hand. Well, guess one in his wisdom he
gave me. This year, he gave me another one.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Another one.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Now we get on my left hand. It's big black
plastic and I mean really big. I think it's a
big man one that looks like an army army kind
of watch.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
They took that because they thought it might take a camera.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
I'm like, well, if you figure out how to turn
this into a camera, great, And because you also tell
me what depressed.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
To see the time on this thing.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
So now in the last three years, David has given
me two and I'm wearing both of them.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Now, okay, love it, love it. No, let me tell
you this that I'm going to end with this. You
were outside when you put that ball cap on. You
look so fantastic, and knowing that you had just had
a birthday, I'm just telling you, you looked phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Yeah, twenty one and count cherld twenty one and count right,
old sister.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
All right, baby, love you.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I'll see you, and don't find love you
Y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is a special crime round up. Nancy, Grace and
I have been in Delphi boots on the ground. Nancy, welcome,
Welcome to Crime round Up. Home.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Cheryl, I'm happy to be and Yer'll learned a lot
in Delphi.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You can't hardly even explain to people what it's like,
but I know for me it's the first time in
probably thirty years, I've had to sit in court and
take notes on a legal path.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
You know, I took nuts too. I think I took
about eight or nine pages in the morning session alone,
because so much was happening. I got to sit near
the families and victims. They were extremely composed, but at
(00:57):
certain points started crying.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
It's just about my heart, Sheryl.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
You know, I saw the family do something, Nancy, I've
never seen in my life. And just so people understand,
that courtroom has four rows of seats on both sides,
about nine seats per role. It's one of the smallest
courtrooms I've ever seen. But those benches are wooden.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
They're hard.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
The German family brought cushions for people, and Becky brought
banana bread every morning. I mean, I've never seen a
victim's family, take care of media and guest and other
experts in my life.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Well, I will say I took the cushion and stayed
away from.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
The banana bread.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I took both, Honey, they gave.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Me an awesome cushion. I was sitting next to Susan.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Hendrix, beside and behind family members. Let's see, there were
a lot of local media on the front row. The
judge gives them my special seat because they have been
covering this dealing for the Get Goat.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
There were several YouTubers.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
I'm not familiar with any of them, but they were
there diligently taking notes.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I observed.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Richard Allen's wife and I believe it was his stepfather
sitting in court. I believe the stepfather fell asleep the
other day and got reprimanded.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, and listen, I gotta ask you something because I
know this happened to me and Charlene, and I know
what happened to Susan Hendrix and Barbara McDonald.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Did Richard Allen look directly at you?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yes, he did, and I was looking right back at
him too.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
It was really a little disconcerting, But he's super aware
of who was in that courtroom.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I'll tell you that I didn't find.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
It disconcerting at all.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, to me, here's what's disconcerting in our day that
would never happen. That he's able to stare down a
family that wouldn't happen. So I didn't like that part.
I don't think Kelsey or Becky or any of them
should be subjected to that.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Well, I agree with you, but ope the court room
he can do if he wants to. It's just highly disrespectful, Sheryl,
would you expect anything less?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
No, But let's talk about what has just come out.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So yesterday, you know they were talking about Richard Allen
said that he saw this white band and it quotes
spooked him and that's.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
The reason he didn't rape them.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
When you and I were talking yesterday, I could not
believe he said that, and you and I had the
same reaction. This defendant has just given us the reason
there wasn't DNA.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Because he got spooked in did not complete the rate.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
That blew my mind because all these people that are
defending him or saying they gave him discovery he knew
about the white van. He might have known about the
white van, but he just gave us motive that it
was rape and the reason he didn't complete it that
wasn't in discovery that came from him.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Well, hold on just a moment, just a moment. I
recall him saying a van. I don't know that I
recall him saying a white man. I got to look
at my notes. But that said, the fact that he
said he saw a van and that interrupted him from
raping the girls, no one else knew other than the killer,
(04:40):
that the property owner that would come by at at
the time, at the same time as the girls were
being killed. No one knew that he drew the van
except the killer. Who else would have seen it but
the killer?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
And there's no way anybody would have known.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
He got off work early that day and would have
been home by two thirty five.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
You know another issue.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
That you were bringing up that some people would argue, Well,
Richard Allen got that information through his lawyers.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
During discovery. I really believe this.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Day needs to make a giant flow chart about what
he confessed to. When he confessed to it, was it
before his defense journey's got discovery And I don't know
that a neighbor coming home driving a van would have
(05:34):
been in discovery that is not discoverable. Information who the
neighbor is to joining the property, and what kind of
vehicle they drive is not traditional discovery. Discovery is defendant statements,
exculpatory evidence under Brady B. Maryland, science, scientific reports such
as DNA or autopsy reports, witness names, address his phone numbers.
(06:00):
That's all discoverable. But who owns the property and what
kind of him will they drive? It's not discoverable. So
I am not convinced that the defense had that information
and or that they handed that particular piece of information
over to their client.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
And I imagine I'd.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Be willing to invent sure that he stated that before
discovery was handed over.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Absolutely, And just this morning I thought, Nancy Grace is
going to be doing backflips because you and I back
in the day when somebody would tell a story and
it was in chronological order that rang true. Richard Allen
told the story that he went to his parents, he
(06:49):
bought beer, he went home and got a jacket, He
went to the bridge, he followed the girls, he did
something with the gun, then he said down the hill.
Then he killed them because the van spooked him. Now, Nancy,
that is chronological that is factual, and he added things
we didn't know.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Like fumbling with the gun and the van spookiny.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Well, as a matter of fact, Cheryl, he actually says,
I think that's when I must have.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Dropped the bullet.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
The doctor this morning, the defense witness who was over
the behavioral division said, if it is organized and there
is a chain to the story, they could be faking psychosis.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Well, you know the shrink that was up, she got
shredded on cross.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
But what I found really interesting about her direct testimony.
You know, Walla wasn't that impressed with her direct testimony
because she had not prepared herself to take the stand.
The state had to direct her on multiple occasions to
a page number and a paragraph number so she could
reread in order to answer the question.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
But what really did impress me about her was her.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Copious notes that she took upon meeting with the defendant.
Every single time she outlined his confessions, how he repeatedly confessed,
how he asked to call his wife to tell his
wife that he did it with his family still love him,
that he may not see her again until he got
the electric chair, that he wanted closure by signing his
(08:28):
confession that he had gotten the lord behind bars and
he wanted to confess, and he said, she won't believe me,
and he called the wife again in front of the shrink.
The strength had given him privacy during the first conversation
with wife, called her back and said she doesn't believe me,
(08:49):
and the strain heard him confess again to the white
and that is when the wife said, stop saying that,
stop talking, called the defense lawyer. And right after that,
Richard Allen starts eating paper, drinking out of the toilet,
hitting his.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Head on the wall, and play with his pood.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
You know what, I'm not a shrink, but I don't
need a doctorate in behavioral study to know that there
was an abrupt change in his behavior. What's His wife
got to hold the lawyers and they told him to
stop talking.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Nancy.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
The one person in your life you won't to think
well of you, you want to impress, you want to
love you forever is your mama.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
He told her, I did it. I did it, And.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
When she said you couldn't have, he said, but I did.
And then she even said to him, they're messing with you.
And he said to his mama, they're not He told
the one person.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
That above everybody else, he should want to.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Not give any harm to any sadness to He would
not stop telling hurry did it and name.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Them by name. I killed adving and living.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Another thing, Cheryl, that you've already noticed, I'm sure, is
that he knew in his early confessions that the bridge.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Guy had a gun. He said, I had a gun.
That's where I must have dropped a bulling. He knew
so much of the information that only the killer would
have had. America. They didn't put it out there that.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
The bridge guy, the killer, had a gun. They didn't
put out the cause and mode of death, that's right.
They didn't put out there about the branches. They didn't
put out there that the girls both were stripped and
one was redressed. His confessions came before all of that
started leaking out, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
That's what I would be arguing to the jury.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Absolutely. And what was so critical to me about him
using the word branches. If you look at the crime scene,
there are branches all over it. But that also blows
up these people that are still on the oldness train,
because there weren't sticks and twigs. He mentioned branches, and
that's exactly what you see.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
I'm just so impressed by the victims family, how they
are all maintaining so much dignity in that courtroom. Ohen, Cheryl,
you know who I love.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
She is as sharp as a pack. The eighty three
year old Kathy.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
That is the volunteer that realized, wait a minute, wait
a minute, this is right, the case was cold. She
started me digging through the document. Okay, she saw this
document in the name Richard Allen Whiteman. She's got to
thinking and the street the road listed for where he lived.
(11:55):
And she's the one that figured out Richard Allen placing
it self on the bridge at the time they believe
the girls were killed. And that bold that woman had
not been in that spot at that time and noticed
that one piece of paper, Sheryl, this case would never
(12:17):
have been cracked.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
And I got to tell you, this woman is as
sharp as attack.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I so enjoyed talking to her. And she's little, tiny, tiny, Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Now I know she doesn't have a blonde hair, I
know that, but she wry at me.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Doris Day in her later years, when she devoted herself
to animal activism, she just had that big smile and
that just a spark of life out she just I thought,
I think she's amazing. Now another thing I want to
talk to you about. I like the judge also, she
rules with an iron fist.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
And when we lood gaze in the courtroom, I almost
looked away, but I'm like, I am damned if I'm
going to look away.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Same ways when I looked at Richard Allen.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
But then as lawyer has jumped in between us, I
guess so I couldn't get a good analysis, but I
saw plenty, Cheryl. Why is everybody hating on us because
we think Alan is guilty?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Nancy.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
There are people that are just condensed that he has
been mistreated and that's the only reason he has said
the things had done the things that he's done.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
I know that, But why they hate Cheryl. I don't
hate them because they think he's innocent.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
They were all so much hate, Well I would I
just want to say something because I think there is
a lot of misinformation. The night before court you got
to experience the salad wheels, so you were already in town.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
I was wondering when we were going to get to
the salad wheel?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Was that not incredible though?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Just the I would not have known about it.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
I was booking the interset and I'm like, okay, where
am I going to go?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Another salad at Chipotle?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Now Jack may not to confess anything about texting while driving.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Because I would never.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
I actually did a voice control Cheryl, because there's no
way I could text when I'm driving. I said, Okay,
I know Cheryl calls and at least one of her
sisters has got to know where to eat it, so
coming from ural Big County where there is nothing, Although
at this moment David and I are fighting over the
last pictures Hamburger floated with mustard and onions because I'd
(14:29):
go to a meeting and bacon today. But Cheryl ries,
you must go to Mountain Jax. And I'm like, I
can't unless they have a salad.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
I'm not going.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
And she said, and Cheryl writes back, have you ever
heard of a salad wheel? And in Alliver Wissom had
actually taken pictures.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Of the tound wheel at Mountain Jack's. So there I go,
and it was awesome. It was awesome, and you were
right about the dressing, I might add to.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Which is this frothy pink stuff and the ranch I mean,
you have to have the ranch, even if you're on
a diet like I haven't since I was twelve.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
But it was awesome. Thank you, Cheryl, you pulled me through.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
But I want people to understand, starting the night before
you are boots on the ground, you're going to different locations.
You're going to different places to map this once again
in your head and timing it. Then you get in
line to get into the court in the dark. Now,
a lot of people said she lived early, y'all, she
had to leave early because she's got a TV show.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I mean, I don't know how people don't get that.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
You don't know what Cheryl, you know. I don't care.
I just I hate to even waste my energy on
the naysayers.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
You listen to them, Cheryl McCollum, no train would ever
come true, that you would ever be completed. You and
I be hiding under under our beds right now because
of what's some anonymous person that has nothing better to
do than to go online and whine and coup whining
about Sheryl and Nancy. What don't don't they have a job. Yes,
(16:12):
I got there when it was still dark. I sent
out a picture because you know, it was beautiful the sky,
believe it or not. With the the sun finally started
coming up. I got up at uh three five in
order to get there. When the sun finally started just
peeking up, the whole sky over the courthouse turned and lavender,
(16:34):
not peak, not blue, lavender. I try to take a
picture of it with my phone and I couldn't capture
the color it really was.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
But yes, I was out there in the cold.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
But I don't hear what they say or what they
think they know. All I care about is a true verdict.
Screw them and the horse they rode in on that
is a gray slash Linch family say.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I just wanted to say too, Lavender was Libby's favorite color.
That wasn't lost all my stars.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
You're so right. Also, let me just tell you. I stayed,
and I stayed, and I stayed.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
And it was getting to almost eleven, and I knew
that they were expecting outside the courthouse at about ten twenty,
and I stayed, and I stayed, and I stayed, and
finally I knew that we were going to lose our
control room in New York City.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Another show gets it.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
At twelve, and I knew if I didn't get out there,
none of us would make air. And I had experts, lawyers, shrinks,
a blood expert, an old and expert that literally wrote
the book on hope, visit brotherhood.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Susan Hendrick ran out at last minute, jumped in with me.
People don't understand it.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
I don't expect them to understand it, just like I
don't understand their jobs.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
But yeah, yeah, I'm taking a beating, But so what.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Well, I just want to tell you I know personally
what you coming there in person meant to the families.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So I'm going to say that out loud because I
know it, because.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
They told me, and every single person that's got something
to say negative. My question is what have you done
for the families? I tell you, what have you done
for Richard Allen? Have you written him a letter? Have
you done anything for his wife? Her world got completely
blown up. The people that are going to complain the most,
(18:38):
I can guarantee you have done the least. And Nancy Grace,
since I was twenty one years old, you have set
the standard for what victim advocacy means. You left your children,
your family, your pets, your home. You went to Delphi
by yourself, stood in line in the dark, in the cold,
(19:01):
You got in that courtroom stage as long as you could,
hugged everybody you could, were respectful to everybody, and I
know it was noticed and appreciated, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I appreciate that. I really do. I have to tell you.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
You know me for a long time, Cheryl. I don't
give a flying fig. I'm gonna do what I think
is right, and if anybody else doesn't like it, and
that includes you, shut up, David.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Then I can't help that.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
I am not gonna go to my grave saying I
should have. I would have, I could have, but you
know what, I fail. I'm gonna at least try it.
They don't like it again, screw them and the horse
they rode in on.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Okay, the whole barn, the whole barn, and I'm gonna
take some money. We are too cute and we have
no regret. So let's just ride on. So I appreciate you.
I am headed out of town. Your head back into town,
and I'll see you next week.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Well hold on, David.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
He wants to be recognized for of being left to
take care out of the twins, not of the cat,
the dog, the guinea pigs.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
But my mother, Okay, David, that was an oversight, and
I apologize.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Not only should I have.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Started with you, what do you think so far of
the defense?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Pitiful to put your first witness up there and she's
gonna basically say, yeah, he's probably faking it because he
told it in order. But I also observed was their
questions were to clear up what they believe. So if
you hear their questions, I think absolutely they are understanding
what the prosecution is laid out.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
There's no doubt in my mind. Hey, but I have
one thing I do think we need to end on.
I was so impressed with.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Every single deputy and officer in and around that courthouse.
They were kind, they were helpful, they were patient. They
ran that security like a clock. Honey, oh yeah, I was.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Watching the clock. We've been standing out there.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
I don't know how long to get in, and Susan said,
they will open this door at precisely eight o'clock.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
And they did. They have it down to the minute.
Everything they do is to the minute.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
They're so polite, not just to me, but to everybody
that went in before me and the people that I
heard come in after me.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
They were just they were just great.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Sharp, absolutely, and you know right before this happened.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
There's no days off, there's no leaving early, doesn't matter
if it's a wedding, anniversary, of birthday, party, or just
a vacation you would planned.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
None of that's happened.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Nothing is happening, but this trial in Delphi right now, Okay,
can I go to tell you something?
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Speaking of birthday, I had a birthday and those sheriffs
took away my birthday present.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
David.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Now you know, about two years ago he gave me
a fitbit, this fake gold mash I always wear on
my right hand. Well, guess one in his wisdom he
gave me. This year, he gave me another one.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Another one.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Now we get on my left hand. It's big black
plastic and I mean really big. I think it's a
big man one that looks like an army army kind
of watch.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
They took that because they thought it might take a camera.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
I'm like, well, if you figure out how to turn
this into a camera, great, And because you also tell
me what depressed.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
To see the time on this thing.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
So now in the last three years, David has given
me two and I'm wearing both of them.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Now, okay, love it, love it. No, let me tell
you this that I'm going to end with this. You
were outside when you put that ball cap on. You
look so fantastic, and knowing that you had just had
a birthday, I'm just telling you, you looked phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Yeah, twenty one and count cherld twenty one and count right,
old sister.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
All right, baby, love you.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I'll see you, and don't find love you
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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