December 13, 2024 • 35 mins
Today Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum discuss the latest on the Luigi Mangione case. They explain the legal nuances of the charges against him, the premeditation and intent behind his actions, and the implications of his crimes on victims and society. Nancy and Sheryl also examine broader issues, such as the public's controversial support of Mangione, the legal distinctions between murder charges, and the growing concern over ghost guns.
Show Notes:
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(0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
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(0:10) Sheryl introduces the updates on the Luigi Mangione case
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(1:00) Public reaction and outrage
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(3:00) Legal breakdown of murder 1 vs. murder 2
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(8:00) Human trafficking and poaching routes
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(9:30) Evidence and investigation details
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(14:00) Connection to past infamous cases
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(17:00) Family impact and emotional toll
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(23:30) Ghost guns and legal implications
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(30:00) Personal reflections and closing thoughts
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Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to the Crime Round Up.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Cheryl McCollum and I am joined today like always,
with the one and only, the peerless Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Good morning, honey.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
You know what, I can't even speak after I found
out that an anchor at my old TV home, seeing that,
of course I was at HLN, the sister network, actually
had the control room remove the lower banner, you know,
the lower third as they call it, so she could
(00:42):
get a better look at Luigi Minianni's body.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
I mean, I'm just what the yellow istro all of
these people to see. I cursed.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
That's where I'm.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
At right now.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
If any situation called for that, it's right now, Nancy.
I have been just gobsmacked by the people that are
supporting him. They're calling him the new Robin Hood. He's
a martyr, he's a hero.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
It is just.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
It's disgusting to me because I'm going to tell you
that was somebody's father, that was somebody's husband, that was
somebody's son. And you know, anytime that people somehow say
that this murder is justified because of X, whatever the
X factor is for you, I caution you change it
(01:40):
if you want to say Robin hood stole from the
rich to give to the poor. Change the word rich
to any other group and tell me that doesn't sound
freaking pathetic. If you change rich to elderly, or African
American or lesbian, change the group's sounds heinous. The fact
(02:02):
they think he's sexy, the fact they think he did
something right, the fact they think he's some type of,
you know, now, heroic figure. Every bit of it bothers
me on every level. How can these people literally come
out and say, hey, look at this guy with his
six pack.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Look at this you.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Know, handsome man that is now our new hero is baffling.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Well, okay, I'm going to try to focus off edgits
that are glorifying Luigi Mangioni, and I am going to
talk about the only thing that I can really do,
and that's the evidence and the law surrounding this case.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Many people have asked me, well, there's a.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Lot of legal issues coming up, but they tend to
get really boring, so to try to briefly rush through them.
Many people have asked me online and on camera, why
is Mangioni charged with murder II and not murder one?
And first of all, reality check, it's New York, there
is no death penalty. I feel recently, but it was
(03:08):
several years ago. Covered a case where I think four
people were gunned down and left in a fridge at Wendy's.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
I think, so the bark could rob the cash register.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Really you kill four people, Like, basically, you can kill
as many people as you want to in New York
and there is no death penalty.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
You don't have to worry about that.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
So, whether it's murder one or murder two, there is
no death penalty. But I had to look long and
hard at the New York law, Cheryl, because murder one,
the elements to prove it sound a lot like murder too.
You know, there's something called like voluntary manslaughter where let's
just say you're DUI and you right over somebody. You
(03:48):
didn't have the intent to kill. He just got drunk
and right over somebody. In my mind, is still a murder.
But that is not murder one. That's voluntary manslaughter and
a lot of jurisdictions. Then you have an involuntary manslaughter,
which a lot of people can get probation on.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
But there's something called men's rea.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
The requisite intent to do the act or the intent
to kill.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Guess what. Murder one and murder.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
IWO in New York both have intent to kill, So
what is the difference. It seems to me that murder
one in New York is reserved for when you kill
a cop, when you kill law enforcement, when you kill
a judge, when you kill a witness. And I also
notice it's reserved when there's torture involved. So you know,
(04:35):
the penalty is a little bit stiffer, but you can
still get life.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
You can still get life for murder two.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Murder one offers life without the possibility of parole. Murder
two is life. So that's the difference. It's the same
legal elements and intent is required. I also noticed that
it refers to depraved heart, an abandoned and malignant heart,
often called a black heart.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
That is just example, driving through a festival on Thorde
Avenue at ninety miles an hour with the little vendors
and the children with balloons and face painting, and you
hurl yourself through at ninety mph.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
That is an.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Abandoned and malignant heart with no regard for human life,
and a death occurs that can be prosecuted and get life.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Okay, it's right up.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
There with malice murder, and then there's also felony murder,
which gets the same penalty of life, and that is
very simply put, a death occurs in the commission of
a felony What does that mean? Cheryl and I go
rob a bank again, and I say, Cheryl, don't get crazy. Instead,
(05:56):
Cheryl gets crazy, pulls a gun, and she us the
bank teller dead.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Guess what, I'm on the hook for felony murder.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Because a death occurred during the commission of a felony
bank robbery.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
That's how that works. So all three of those.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
He may later be charged in the alternative with felony
murder or other types of murder, but right now he's
charged with murder too. He's charged with gun charges for
having a ghost gun, which is I have serial number
on it, for having live AMMO and a gun. Let
me think what else? Oh? Yeah, a forged document which
I guess is his fake passport and fake driver's license.
(06:34):
Those are his charges currently, say Philly, Pennsylvania's actually around
Altoona also has charges on him, but they have agreed
that the murder charge in New York will take precedence,
and we're just waiting on extradition, and this ding dong
is apparently gonna fight extradition.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Of course, Nancy, thank you for explaining all that, because
I'm one of those people is sending as I hear
murder too, I'm like, what that's me?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Cheryl, I did the same thing. I'm like, murder too,
my rear, Rea, this needs to be murder one. Then
I'm like, okay, what is murder one? In New York?
I had to research and research and research to figure
out why not murder one?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Well, I just appreciate knowing because it makes you, you know,
feel better that they're doing the right way, the right thing.
But I'm going to ask your opinion. Let's say he
does get life and he is at some point eligible
to be released, if he is ever released from prison,
if he's convicted, if he's ever released, does that mean
that Pennsylvania would immediately get him and go to trial
(07:39):
and then he would do time there as well?
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Yeah, I think how that'll probably work. It's why wait
fifty years?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I go ahead, and as soon as he's convicted in
New York, god willing, I would get him sent back
to Altona tried right then and have it to run consecutively.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
To the New York sentence and then ship him.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Into a CI correct so on institute. You don't stay
at the county jail forever. Think about Andy of Mayberry
and Otis would just wander in and out. That's the
county jail, okay. Not in the big metropolitan area like
Fulton County where you and I practice, or of course
NBC Metropolitan Detention Center. But in a lot of smaller
(08:21):
jurisdictions it's you know, very loose, almost friendly, right be.
You don't get a lot of hardcore criminals there. So
he will be in a CI where he belongs. What's
he is convicted in New York, But I would take
him immediately to PA to get that conviction put to bed.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Done and done.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I would not wait, you know, until he finishes his
sentence in New York for Pete's sake, HG W l N.
I'd want that conviction a lot in now while the
witnesses are still around.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Brilliant, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
I want to clarify. We did a program about human trafficking,
and the routes used by human traffickers in certain parts
of the world.
Speaker 6 (09:09):
Are the very same routes at age old routes of poachers,
and we're trying to make the connection how to stop
human trafficking by finding these poaching routes.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I know it sounds esoteric, but if you're being human trafficked,
it's not. It's real, that's right. You know what I'm
so upset about Mangioni. I'm not have to crack open
a can here. Hold on, okay, hold on, It takes
me a second. I guess you want to know what
I'm drinking. I do the hard stuff, the eight low sodium.
(09:41):
What are we gonna do about Mangioni, because of course
we've got the fingerprints matching to MANGIONI. We're gonna have
DNA because idiots drank out of a water bottle and
threw it down.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
I'm very curious who he.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Was talking to, excuse me to who he was talking
on his way to.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
The murder, because again, to me, there are limited people.
You can call it six thirty in the morning.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Wait, we talk all the time at six thirty in
the morning, usually by texts.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yes, you and I, but my group is you and
my sister. She loved that gets up at five. I
can't call anybody else at six thirty.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
In the morning.
Speaker 7 (10:25):
You know, now I'm seeing the headlines about where he's
being housed. Of course it's at Huntingdon, and you know
everyone is talking about it's his facility.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Nice enough, I mean, what, let's get to it, Nancy.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
This guy took great time to build a gun that
could not be traced. He took time to travel to
New York, spent ten days. He got monopoly money, he
got fake eye, he got.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
A fake passport.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
He made sure that he had things to cover his face,
different jackets. He took time to write a manifesto. It
is again baffling to me that anybody is going to
champion that any group, whether it's CEO's the homeless, people
(11:23):
with mental illness, that any group deserves to be murdered,
because I'm going to say again, you change the word
CEO with any other group and it sounds disgusting.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
And I have no gray area when it comes to murder. None.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Many people often wonder why the sentence is lesser for
voluntary manslaughter, for instance, as opposed to murder one. It's
such as a duy man a dy manslaughter.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Why do you get twenty on that? In life for
murder one.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Because the victim is dead. In both cases, the families
are distraught. We'll tell you why, because there is a
degree of coldness, of calculatedness in murder.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
And you were just talking about how he wrote the.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Manifesto, how he stalked the health boss, how he traveled
this circuitous route from Atlanta by bus under a faint name,
just all of the measures he took not to get detected.
Along each one of those steps, he could have said,
what am I thinking. I'm taking a human life. Somebody's
(12:32):
going to bleed out on the sidewalk. They are going
to be children left without a father. You know, much
has been made about the wife living in a separate
home from Thompson, that they had been quote estranged but
getting along to raised children. You know what, how do
I know she didn't hope for a reconciliation one day?
How do I know that he didn't work all the
(12:56):
time and it hurt their marriage and she separated.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
You never know what's going on. People might say, oh,
she didn't care they were split. That is not true.
We don't know that.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
We don't know what she's going through. Try to explain
to her children that some unknown azeilant attack their father
and shot him down like a dog on the sidewalk
and let him bleed out in the dark. And each
step of the way he had the opportunity not to
(13:28):
do this thing.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Murderers. I've looked at so many of them, Cheryl. Some
of them are.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Just idiots, and some of them are extremely intelligent, like BENCHIONI.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
He's smart. He ain't got no street smarts.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
And here's the deal. He is a walking contradiction. He
is such a piece of crap that he's going to
sit there and pretend that he's gonna take somebody out
because of their greed, but he comes from money. He
is going to say, I'm attacked genius, but I'm going
to use a spiral Nope book from my manifesto. He's
going to say, I've got back pain and can't have
(14:04):
sex with anybody, but I can run, I can ride
a bike, and I can ride a bus for five
and a half hours. He's gonna, you know, get this
attorney that tells him don't say nothing, and then he's
going to make all these outbursts. Day one, when you
and I talked, this case made me think of DC
Sniper and Eric Robert Rudolph for two reasons.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Both of those things have come to be.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
It makes perfect sense to me that he thinks he's
avenging himself or his mama, just like Eric Rudolph thought
he was doing. Eric was going to build these bombs
they saved. This kid said he was going to blow
some people as well, but chose to do the firearm instead. Again,
a lot of time was taken, and to your point,
(14:49):
a year ago, six months ago, three months ago, he
could have stopped. Somebody might could have gotten to him
and say, you know, what.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Are you doing.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
There is no doubt in my I'm mine.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
His family recognized him, college people recognized him, high school people.
Possibly it took a stranger in a McDonald's to turn
him in. So again, these people that are champion for
him great didn't work.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
It's never going to work.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Good over evil every time, every time one person did this,
But how many New York City police officers responded, how
many folks in Pennsylvania responded, how many citizens responded by
sharing his picture?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Love wins every time.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I understand that the FBI and others are trying to
determine when the family realized that Luigi min Gianni, their
son brother cousin was in fact the health boss assassin.
The reality is, unless they actively did something to impede
(16:00):
the investigation, they are not under any duty to come
forward and identify me and Giani. So they I hate
for them to spend time trying to figure that out
because there's not going to be a prosecution.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
On that at all.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Ever, what do you think after Well, let me just
go back.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I think even before I think he went ghost, I
think he stopped communicating with people. I think the family
knew there was a problem. I think he's been very
vocal about what he thought was wrong with the insurance industry.
He hasn't hidden it. His manifesto with and the only
thing he's ever written down not the only thing he's
(16:39):
ever said publicly with his outburst. Now, this is not
anything new. Friends and family I believe had to have
known that he was in this direction with his anger
misplaced or not. Then I think you're talking around Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
He's just ia.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
So when his pictures out there, whether he made contact
with them, I can't believe they didn't.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Try to get in touch with him.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I can't believe Mama wasn't trying to figure out where
is he?
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Is he?
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Okay, there ain't no question she knew who it was.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
I'm just thinking about his family, and I'm not going
to think about them very long because I'm more concerned
with the victim's family.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
But imagine, Cheryl, well as you do with your two,
you work your whole life to help them to get
them through school and get them into the best college
they can get into, to get them through Oh lord,
I remember just getting the twins through Bible Challenge, for
(17:42):
Peat's sake. That took three years. They had to learn
Oh my goodness, there was a song and we would
sing it in march around the house, Jenna's Exodus Loviticus.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
Blah blah blah blah blah blah. That's how we learned.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Oh and then anyway, and I would go over and
over and over the twenty third song with Lucy.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Oh my stars. Three years they finally graduated Bible Challenge.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Forget that what getting them into you know, high school
and the college search and the or the daynist and
the there's a lot, and you do it gladly, happily, willingly.
Is for all your time, all your money, or at
(18:32):
least in our case, all our money, not in Mengioni's.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Case, all your love, and you know dreams I once had.
Of course, my dreams were just putting bad guys in jail.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
I didn't have a dream past that, right, But all
your dreams are now for them.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
What is Lucy going to do? What is John David
going to do? What is going to make them happy
and fulfilled? Who are they going to marry if they marry.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
And what can I do to push them forward or
help them just a quarter of an inch? And then
you see that picture and you realize your son Luigi
Mangioni is the health boss assassin.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
I mean, oh bomb bomb.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
You know, Nancy, I tell people a lot of times,
and you know this because you and I used to
talk about it. When you have a murder trial, the
victim's family, absolutely you can point them out, no question
about it, the grief, the heartache. But you can also
do that with a defendant's family. They are broken as well,
(19:45):
because not only are they going to lose a child
because of the freedom being taken, but this child of
theirs that you say correctly they've poured all their love into,
has taken the life of an innocent person, and in
a way.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Your life is for well and not what your life
is forever altered because everything you are looking forward to, Like,
you know what, I'm looking forward to The Twins school
made it to the state championships, and I'm looking forward
to going to that game and watching Lucy be a
(20:23):
football manager and looking up in the stands and seeing
John David in some crazy fanhat. I'm looking forward to that,
you know. And I'm looking forward to Christmas and every
minute I have with them, And I just don't know
how empty life would be if I didn't have that
to look forward to. And that is the position his
parents are in.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
The CEO's wife.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Everybody in the world is coming to her, friends, family, neighbors, work, associates.
Everybody's given her whatever support they can. His family people
are distancing themselves. That's the reality too. What he has
done to his family is unforgivable. So not only has
he broken their heart by murdering somebody senselessly, they are
(21:08):
losing friends, they are losing family members, they are losing
neighbors as support. It's horrible murder. Nobody wins. It's not
a solution again for these people that think he's done
something so great that CEO was replaced before they got
him off the sidewalk. You've done nothing, You've accomplished nothing.
(21:31):
It's just senseless and just the devil at work. That's
all there is to it.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
You know what he could have done.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
He could with all his brands and money, he could
have started a foundation for insurance victims. He could have
lobbied Congress. He could have raised awareness. I mean, his
family owns part of a radio station.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
He could have taken.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Calls every day at noon about insurance scams, assurance, you know, pitfalls.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
There's so many things he could have done.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
You know the starfish story about the man that's picking
them up and throwing it back in the ocean, and
the person says, what are you doing? And he's like, well,
I'm saving his starfish. I'm throwing it back in the ocean.
And they you can't save all of them, but he says,
but I can save this one. What me and Jenny
he could have done with all of his wealth. He
could have picked one person a year to pay their
(22:26):
medical bills. You can't save them all, but he could
have saved one.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
You know, it's.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Interesting after my fiance Keith was murdered. I thought, Okay,
when this guy gets out of jail, do I have
to go kill him?
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Is that my duty? Do I need to go kill him?
How come I do it and not get caught?
Speaker 8 (22:47):
Is that what I need to do? I, instead of
focusing on that, assumed he would be in jail for life,
and flung myself into law school to help other crime victims.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
Then as time passed. Of course, I've got the twins.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I would never ever jeopardize one minute of being with them.
That's why I start work in the morning at five Cheryl,
so I can be with them.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
If they can be with me when they get off
of school.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
You know, there's other ways, other ways to make the
world a better place. There are ways than to hunt
someone down and shoot them dead. I'm just sick about
the whole thing, and I don't want to dwell Amanngiani's family,
but I can only imagine what the mother and father
(23:48):
are going through. Hey, can I talk to you about
that ghost gun? Did you notice it looks like a glock?
It looks like a glock nineteen nine semi. There's no
block logo on it right, and the grip is different.
(24:08):
I've been looking into it researching it, and it's a
free to download three D rented design and it's known
as the f m as A Mother D Delta A
Alpha f Frank fmd A nineteen point two Chairman one remix.
(24:37):
Now the guy who designed it, I guess it's a
guy Chairman One does not want to be linked to
this shooting at all. But he had stated he was
shocked when he saw photos of the pistol, and he
acknowledged that it was his design. Then he got so
worried he deleted the post. Now Biden, I am not
(25:01):
pro Biden or anti Biden. I don't care to me,
They're all the same. In the White House, Biden had
proposed regulating these components that are used in homemade guns.
Did you know there are over twenty five thousand privately
made firearms that were discovered in one seizure in twenty
(25:27):
twenty two, twenty.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Five album, all untraceable?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Sheryl Well, I know.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
I mean here at the police department, I have a
couple of ghost guns that we've taken into evidence.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
But they are rare for us. They are super rare,
which tells me a couple of things. I know they exist.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
I know they're out there, so they're usually in the
hands of somebody that's not the fifteen year old gang member,
not the you know, crackhead burglar. This is somebody that
has gone to great express, great.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Time again to get this gun. A lot of the
guns that we are going to.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Seize from different burglaries, robberies, things like that, are going
to be somebody that stole the weapon in the first place,
out of somebody's car or home, and they either drop
it because it's no good to them anymore, or.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
You know, we get it when they are arrested.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
But the ghost guns, I would venture to bet are
less than one percent of what I've got in there.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
So let me talk to you about how long it
would take him to make a ghost gun. I've got
twenty to forty hours to make one ghost gun, which
adds to the.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Pre planning and great expense.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Because Nancy Hutton Caroline have a three D printer that
they got years ago, and they can make little toys
and things like that.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But there's a lot of material.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
I mean, this isn't something you just can buy one
little box of something and make it. There's a lot
of parts, there's a lot of materials and a ton
of time for that machine to work.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
So how does that factor into evidence?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
They're going to be able to take that gun because
one it was own him, and that is so critical.
They didn't find it in the woods, they didn't find
it in the water, and you and I talked. We
knew he was going to have that gun own him
because it meant so much to him.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
No way he was going to throw that away.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
It was like his little baby.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
It's like his baby, and the fact that it was
owning is paramount.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
The ammunition is going to be the same.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
The shell cases that the scene are going to be
the same as the ones that are sit inside the gun.
They're going to have the handwriting on there with the
permanent marker, so those are going to have fingerprints and
DNA on them as well. The gun's going to have
DNA all over it, so that gun is tied to him.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Period. Don't don't hit a serial number at all. I mean, Cheryl,
what a whack a doodle?
Speaker 4 (27:59):
This guy loving off his parents and a high rise.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
In Honolulu with a group that does nothing but surf
and they're living in this luxury high rise.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
I mean, you know how much that irritates me.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
But ah, and all the hours he's spent researching this
and making the three D printed gun, and just it had.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
To be hundreds and hundreds of hours that he's spent.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
And again he's got this whole thing in his head
about what's right, what's wrong, who's good, who's bad, And
he's the only one committing crimes.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
It's just unreal.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
And you know, again, like DC Sniper wanted to leave
the death Card, he wanted to leave Monopoly. It's their
tisted view of the world. And you know, Nancy, you
and I talked too about him, you know, being a
big fan of the Unibalmer.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
If you look at.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Who these criminals were research like Coburger, researching Bundy and
researching BTK, it'll tell you about them.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Him wanting to research the inn Obomber will tell you
about him.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And you know, my favorite quote from the Enbalmber is
when he said, I believe in nothing. And I think
this is true of this young man. He doesn't know
what he believes in because.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
His actions make no sense. What he put together makes
no sense.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
He's a walking contradiction that is way out of bounds
with his thinking.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
I'm curious why he didn't just have another back surgery
to get out of the pain he allegedly was in.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
He could have made all kind of decisions that were different.
It's a real shame.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I noticed that on his an ex account that's been
linked to him, he talks about the negative impact of
smart finds. He talks about healthy eating, exercise. He quotes
an Indian philosopher Beach de Murty about the dangers of
being quote well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. Yeah, okay,
(30:10):
Well of crap.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Where was he caught.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
McDonald?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, hugging a what was it, a hash brown?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Give me a freaking break. You can go get a
power bar if you want to.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
But you ain't.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Fooling anybody, because again, when you were caught, mister contradiction,
you're enjoying, you know, a big old biscuit and hash
browns and whatever.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
You don't know what you believe in. You don't know
what you're about.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
You do know, we're in the weeds right now, okay,
because we're talking about his hash brown and his quote
big old biscuit as you put it, when we could
be analyzing the facts and the evidence so on that note,
I will give you adieu and I will finish my va.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Did you know today's my mother's ninety third birthday?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Nancy, tell her happy birthday.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Amazing, I will, I will well, y'all go celebrate that, Lona.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
I think it's not that amazing when you're up with
her three or four times a night just to check
on her.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
This morning, I went in there with hot coffee. I
have to make it just right. She b I t
c h ed to hell him back the other day
because David took it upon himself to bring her a
cup of coffee.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
And it was too strong.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
And like David, you have to give her one third
of a teaspoon on decaf black. If it's eating more
than that, she will totally spit it out. Okay, I
wonder what it's going to hit him. He did not
sign up for this. But anyway, I took her coffee
and I made her homemade biscuits with melted butter okay,
(31:48):
and apple jelly on the side.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Okay, she has to have it in a little dish
on the side.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
And the first thing she said was before I could
even say how any birthday was.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
I can't get Andrea on the TV.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
You know who that is, right, Yes, Yeah, that's fantastic Andrea.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
But Kelly, I'm pretty sure See thinks they're in a
relationship because very often, very often, he'll have a stunning woman.
There are always somebody different come in and sing duets
with him, and she hates the woman, whoever they are.
He always hates them, just like hate hate, hate, Like
(32:32):
why is she singing with Andrea?
Speaker 4 (32:35):
He is ruining it for me, my mother. That's a
crazy TV criss on Andrea, Kelly.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
I love her. Listen, y'all go celebrate big. She is
an absolute gift.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
Do you dare? Remember her and my father coming to
a lot of my trials.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Of course I sat next to her. Remember when you
did the Mason Jar. She was so proud of you
because you've timed that so beautifully. Of course I remember.
I remember having all the dinners at Mary Max. Of course,
of course I remember going to her house. She gave
Zoe a he had a lesson right then and there.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
Yes, and another thing, you know, she worked so hard
to help us. You know, she had a full time job.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
She wouldn't get home, you know, six between six and
seven at night, and I would hear her to the
car horn coming up the driveway, and that was the.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Highlight of my day.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
And I'd run out to help her as she got
out the car, and she would have a stack of
papers that would go they'd be in her arms and
they go up to cover her face. And on top
of that would be a plug and calculator with the
cord dangling down, and I'd run help her carry all
of her stuff in. And I can remember, just like
(33:54):
it happened yesterday, that she would stand in the kitchen
making dinner, and she would want me to stand at
the kitchen table where we would eat supper and state,
you know, give deliver my four h demonstration. And I
could not look down at cards. I had to make
(34:16):
eye contact and know like a five minute presentation by heart,
okay about whatever it was that I was talking about forestry.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Or canning food, or home decorating or.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I don't know whatever, landscaping.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
But she did it all, Cheryl, she did it all.
So I do not mind one bit. Okay, taking her
her one.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Third of the teaspoon decaf black and hot, okay.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Right on, give her my love please, I will buy
my love. Bye, Honey.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
It is the sun of the road,
Welcome to the Crime Round Up.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Cheryl McCollum and I am joined today like always,
with the one and only, the peerless Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Good morning, honey.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
You know what, I can't even speak after I found
out that an anchor at my old TV home, seeing that,
of course I was at HLN, the sister network, actually
had the control room remove the lower banner, you know,
the lower third as they call it, so she could
(00:42):
get a better look at Luigi Minianni's body.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
I mean, I'm just what the yellow istro all of
these people to see. I cursed.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
That's where I'm.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
At right now.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
If any situation called for that, it's right now, Nancy.
I have been just gobsmacked by the people that are
supporting him. They're calling him the new Robin Hood. He's
a martyr, he's a hero.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
It is just.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
It's disgusting to me because I'm going to tell you
that was somebody's father, that was somebody's husband, that was
somebody's son. And you know, anytime that people somehow say
that this murder is justified because of X, whatever the
X factor is for you, I caution you change it
(01:40):
if you want to say Robin hood stole from the
rich to give to the poor. Change the word rich
to any other group and tell me that doesn't sound
freaking pathetic. If you change rich to elderly, or African
American or lesbian, change the group's sounds heinous. The fact
(02:02):
they think he's sexy, the fact they think he did
something right, the fact they think he's some type of,
you know, now, heroic figure. Every bit of it bothers
me on every level. How can these people literally come
out and say, hey, look at this guy with his
six pack.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Look at this you.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Know, handsome man that is now our new hero is baffling.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Well, okay, I'm going to try to focus off edgits
that are glorifying Luigi Mangioni, and I am going to
talk about the only thing that I can really do,
and that's the evidence and the law surrounding this case.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Many people have asked me, well, there's a.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Lot of legal issues coming up, but they tend to
get really boring, so to try to briefly rush through them.
Many people have asked me online and on camera, why
is Mangioni charged with murder II and not murder one?
And first of all, reality check, it's New York, there
is no death penalty. I feel recently, but it was
(03:08):
several years ago. Covered a case where I think four
people were gunned down and left in a fridge at Wendy's.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
I think, so the bark could rob the cash register.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Really you kill four people, Like, basically, you can kill
as many people as you want to in New York
and there is no death penalty.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
You don't have to worry about that.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
So, whether it's murder one or murder two, there is
no death penalty. But I had to look long and
hard at the New York law, Cheryl, because murder one,
the elements to prove it sound a lot like murder too.
You know, there's something called like voluntary manslaughter where let's
just say you're DUI and you right over somebody. You
(03:48):
didn't have the intent to kill. He just got drunk
and right over somebody. In my mind, is still a murder.
But that is not murder one. That's voluntary manslaughter and
a lot of jurisdictions. Then you have an involuntary manslaughter,
which a lot of people can get probation on.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
But there's something called men's rea.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
The requisite intent to do the act or the intent
to kill.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Guess what. Murder one and murder.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
IWO in New York both have intent to kill, So
what is the difference. It seems to me that murder
one in New York is reserved for when you kill
a cop, when you kill law enforcement, when you kill
a judge, when you kill a witness. And I also
notice it's reserved when there's torture involved. So you know,
(04:35):
the penalty is a little bit stiffer, but you can
still get life.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
You can still get life for murder two.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Murder one offers life without the possibility of parole. Murder
two is life. So that's the difference. It's the same
legal elements and intent is required. I also noticed that
it refers to depraved heart, an abandoned and malignant heart,
often called a black heart.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
That is just example, driving through a festival on Thorde
Avenue at ninety miles an hour with the little vendors
and the children with balloons and face painting, and you
hurl yourself through at ninety mph.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
That is an.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Abandoned and malignant heart with no regard for human life,
and a death occurs that can be prosecuted and get life.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Okay, it's right up.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
There with malice murder, and then there's also felony murder,
which gets the same penalty of life, and that is
very simply put, a death occurs in the commission of
a felony What does that mean? Cheryl and I go
rob a bank again, and I say, Cheryl, don't get crazy. Instead,
(05:56):
Cheryl gets crazy, pulls a gun, and she us the
bank teller dead.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Guess what, I'm on the hook for felony murder.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Because a death occurred during the commission of a felony
bank robbery.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
That's how that works. So all three of those.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
He may later be charged in the alternative with felony
murder or other types of murder, but right now he's
charged with murder too. He's charged with gun charges for
having a ghost gun, which is I have serial number
on it, for having live AMMO and a gun. Let
me think what else? Oh? Yeah, a forged document which
I guess is his fake passport and fake driver's license.
(06:34):
Those are his charges currently, say Philly, Pennsylvania's actually around
Altoona also has charges on him, but they have agreed
that the murder charge in New York will take precedence,
and we're just waiting on extradition, and this ding dong
is apparently gonna fight extradition.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Of course, Nancy, thank you for explaining all that, because
I'm one of those people is sending as I hear
murder too, I'm like, what that's me?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Cheryl, I did the same thing. I'm like, murder too,
my rear, Rea, this needs to be murder one. Then
I'm like, okay, what is murder one? In New York?
I had to research and research and research to figure
out why not murder one?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Well, I just appreciate knowing because it makes you, you know,
feel better that they're doing the right way, the right thing.
But I'm going to ask your opinion. Let's say he
does get life and he is at some point eligible
to be released, if he is ever released from prison,
if he's convicted, if he's ever released, does that mean
that Pennsylvania would immediately get him and go to trial
(07:39):
and then he would do time there as well?
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Yeah, I think how that'll probably work. It's why wait
fifty years?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I go ahead, and as soon as he's convicted in
New York, god willing, I would get him sent back
to Altona tried right then and have it to run consecutively.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
To the New York sentence and then ship him.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Into a CI correct so on institute. You don't stay
at the county jail forever. Think about Andy of Mayberry
and Otis would just wander in and out. That's the
county jail, okay. Not in the big metropolitan area like
Fulton County where you and I practice, or of course
NBC Metropolitan Detention Center. But in a lot of smaller
(08:21):
jurisdictions it's you know, very loose, almost friendly, right be.
You don't get a lot of hardcore criminals there. So
he will be in a CI where he belongs. What's
he is convicted in New York, But I would take
him immediately to PA to get that conviction put to bed.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Done and done.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I would not wait, you know, until he finishes his
sentence in New York for Pete's sake, HG W l N.
I'd want that conviction a lot in now while the
witnesses are still around.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Brilliant, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
I want to clarify. We did a program about human trafficking,
and the routes used by human traffickers in certain parts
of the world.
Speaker 6 (09:09):
Are the very same routes at age old routes of poachers,
and we're trying to make the connection how to stop
human trafficking by finding these poaching routes.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I know it sounds esoteric, but if you're being human trafficked,
it's not. It's real, that's right. You know what I'm
so upset about Mangioni. I'm not have to crack open
a can here. Hold on, okay, hold on, It takes
me a second. I guess you want to know what
I'm drinking. I do the hard stuff, the eight low sodium.
(09:41):
What are we gonna do about Mangioni, because of course
we've got the fingerprints matching to MANGIONI. We're gonna have
DNA because idiots drank out of a water bottle and
threw it down.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
I'm very curious who he.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Was talking to, excuse me to who he was talking
on his way to.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
The murder, because again, to me, there are limited people.
You can call it six thirty in the morning.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Wait, we talk all the time at six thirty in
the morning, usually by texts.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yes, you and I, but my group is you and
my sister. She loved that gets up at five. I
can't call anybody else at six thirty.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
In the morning.
Speaker 7 (10:25):
You know, now I'm seeing the headlines about where he's
being housed. Of course it's at Huntingdon, and you know
everyone is talking about it's his facility.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Nice enough, I mean, what, let's get to it, Nancy.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
This guy took great time to build a gun that
could not be traced. He took time to travel to
New York, spent ten days. He got monopoly money, he
got fake eye, he got.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
A fake passport.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
He made sure that he had things to cover his face,
different jackets. He took time to write a manifesto. It
is again baffling to me that anybody is going to
champion that any group, whether it's CEO's the homeless, people
(11:23):
with mental illness, that any group deserves to be murdered,
because I'm going to say again, you change the word
CEO with any other group and it sounds disgusting.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
And I have no gray area when it comes to murder. None.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Many people often wonder why the sentence is lesser for
voluntary manslaughter, for instance, as opposed to murder one. It's
such as a duy man a dy manslaughter.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Why do you get twenty on that? In life for
murder one.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Because the victim is dead. In both cases, the families
are distraught. We'll tell you why, because there is a
degree of coldness, of calculatedness in murder.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
And you were just talking about how he wrote the.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Manifesto, how he stalked the health boss, how he traveled
this circuitous route from Atlanta by bus under a faint name,
just all of the measures he took not to get detected.
Along each one of those steps, he could have said,
what am I thinking. I'm taking a human life. Somebody's
(12:32):
going to bleed out on the sidewalk. They are going
to be children left without a father. You know, much
has been made about the wife living in a separate
home from Thompson, that they had been quote estranged but
getting along to raised children. You know what, how do
I know she didn't hope for a reconciliation one day?
How do I know that he didn't work all the
(12:56):
time and it hurt their marriage and she separated.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
You never know what's going on. People might say, oh,
she didn't care they were split. That is not true.
We don't know that.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
We don't know what she's going through. Try to explain
to her children that some unknown azeilant attack their father
and shot him down like a dog on the sidewalk
and let him bleed out in the dark. And each
step of the way he had the opportunity not to
(13:28):
do this thing.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Murderers. I've looked at so many of them, Cheryl. Some
of them are.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Just idiots, and some of them are extremely intelligent, like BENCHIONI.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
He's smart. He ain't got no street smarts.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
And here's the deal. He is a walking contradiction. He
is such a piece of crap that he's going to
sit there and pretend that he's gonna take somebody out
because of their greed, but he comes from money. He
is going to say, I'm attacked genius, but I'm going
to use a spiral Nope book from my manifesto. He's
going to say, I've got back pain and can't have
(14:04):
sex with anybody, but I can run, I can ride
a bike, and I can ride a bus for five
and a half hours. He's gonna, you know, get this
attorney that tells him don't say nothing, and then he's
going to make all these outbursts. Day one, when you
and I talked, this case made me think of DC
Sniper and Eric Robert Rudolph for two reasons.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Both of those things have come to be.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
It makes perfect sense to me that he thinks he's
avenging himself or his mama, just like Eric Rudolph thought
he was doing. Eric was going to build these bombs
they saved. This kid said he was going to blow
some people as well, but chose to do the firearm instead. Again,
a lot of time was taken, and to your point,
(14:49):
a year ago, six months ago, three months ago, he
could have stopped. Somebody might could have gotten to him
and say, you know, what.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Are you doing.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
There is no doubt in my I'm mine.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
His family recognized him, college people recognized him, high school people.
Possibly it took a stranger in a McDonald's to turn
him in. So again, these people that are champion for
him great didn't work.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
It's never going to work.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Good over evil every time, every time one person did this,
But how many New York City police officers responded, how
many folks in Pennsylvania responded, how many citizens responded by
sharing his picture?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Love wins every time.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I understand that the FBI and others are trying to
determine when the family realized that Luigi min Gianni, their
son brother cousin was in fact the health boss assassin.
The reality is, unless they actively did something to impede
(16:00):
the investigation, they are not under any duty to come
forward and identify me and Giani. So they I hate
for them to spend time trying to figure that out
because there's not going to be a prosecution.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
On that at all.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Ever, what do you think after Well, let me just
go back.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I think even before I think he went ghost, I
think he stopped communicating with people. I think the family
knew there was a problem. I think he's been very
vocal about what he thought was wrong with the insurance industry.
He hasn't hidden it. His manifesto with and the only
thing he's ever written down not the only thing he's
(16:39):
ever said publicly with his outburst. Now, this is not
anything new. Friends and family I believe had to have
known that he was in this direction with his anger
misplaced or not. Then I think you're talking around Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
He's just ia.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
So when his pictures out there, whether he made contact
with them, I can't believe they didn't.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Try to get in touch with him.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I can't believe Mama wasn't trying to figure out where
is he?
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Is he?
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Okay, there ain't no question she knew who it was.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
I'm just thinking about his family, and I'm not going
to think about them very long because I'm more concerned
with the victim's family.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
But imagine, Cheryl, well as you do with your two,
you work your whole life to help them to get
them through school and get them into the best college
they can get into, to get them through Oh lord,
I remember just getting the twins through Bible Challenge, for
(17:42):
Peat's sake. That took three years. They had to learn
Oh my goodness, there was a song and we would
sing it in march around the house, Jenna's Exodus Loviticus.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
Blah blah blah blah blah blah. That's how we learned.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Oh and then anyway, and I would go over and
over and over the twenty third song with Lucy.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Oh my stars. Three years they finally graduated Bible Challenge.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Forget that what getting them into you know, high school
and the college search and the or the daynist and
the there's a lot, and you do it gladly, happily, willingly.
Is for all your time, all your money, or at
(18:32):
least in our case, all our money, not in Mengioni's.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Case, all your love, and you know dreams I once had.
Of course, my dreams were just putting bad guys in jail.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
I didn't have a dream past that, right, But all
your dreams are now for them.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
What is Lucy going to do? What is John David
going to do? What is going to make them happy
and fulfilled? Who are they going to marry if they marry.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
And what can I do to push them forward or
help them just a quarter of an inch? And then
you see that picture and you realize your son Luigi
Mangioni is the health boss assassin.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
I mean, oh bomb bomb.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
You know, Nancy, I tell people a lot of times,
and you know this because you and I used to
talk about it. When you have a murder trial, the
victim's family, absolutely you can point them out, no question
about it, the grief, the heartache. But you can also
do that with a defendant's family. They are broken as well,
(19:45):
because not only are they going to lose a child
because of the freedom being taken, but this child of
theirs that you say correctly they've poured all their love into,
has taken the life of an innocent person, and in
a way.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Your life is for well and not what your life
is forever altered because everything you are looking forward to, Like,
you know what, I'm looking forward to The Twins school
made it to the state championships, and I'm looking forward
to going to that game and watching Lucy be a
(20:23):
football manager and looking up in the stands and seeing
John David in some crazy fanhat. I'm looking forward to that,
you know. And I'm looking forward to Christmas and every
minute I have with them, And I just don't know
how empty life would be if I didn't have that
to look forward to. And that is the position his
parents are in.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
The CEO's wife.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Everybody in the world is coming to her, friends, family, neighbors, work, associates.
Everybody's given her whatever support they can. His family people
are distancing themselves. That's the reality too. What he has
done to his family is unforgivable. So not only has
he broken their heart by murdering somebody senselessly, they are
(21:08):
losing friends, they are losing family members, they are losing
neighbors as support. It's horrible murder. Nobody wins. It's not
a solution again for these people that think he's done
something so great that CEO was replaced before they got
him off the sidewalk. You've done nothing, You've accomplished nothing.
(21:31):
It's just senseless and just the devil at work. That's
all there is to it.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
You know what he could have done.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
He could with all his brands and money, he could
have started a foundation for insurance victims. He could have
lobbied Congress. He could have raised awareness. I mean, his
family owns part of a radio station.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
He could have taken.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Calls every day at noon about insurance scams, assurance, you know, pitfalls.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
There's so many things he could have done.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
You know the starfish story about the man that's picking
them up and throwing it back in the ocean, and
the person says, what are you doing? And he's like, well,
I'm saving his starfish. I'm throwing it back in the ocean.
And they you can't save all of them, but he says,
but I can save this one. What me and Jenny
he could have done with all of his wealth. He
could have picked one person a year to pay their
(22:26):
medical bills. You can't save them all, but he could
have saved one.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
You know, it's.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Interesting after my fiance Keith was murdered. I thought, Okay,
when this guy gets out of jail, do I have
to go kill him?
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Is that my duty? Do I need to go kill him?
How come I do it and not get caught?
Speaker 8 (22:47):
Is that what I need to do? I, instead of
focusing on that, assumed he would be in jail for life,
and flung myself into law school to help other crime victims.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
Then as time passed. Of course, I've got the twins.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I would never ever jeopardize one minute of being with them.
That's why I start work in the morning at five Cheryl,
so I can be with them.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
If they can be with me when they get off
of school.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
You know, there's other ways, other ways to make the
world a better place. There are ways than to hunt
someone down and shoot them dead. I'm just sick about
the whole thing, and I don't want to dwell Amanngiani's family,
but I can only imagine what the mother and father
(23:48):
are going through. Hey, can I talk to you about
that ghost gun? Did you notice it looks like a glock?
It looks like a glock nineteen nine semi. There's no
block logo on it right, and the grip is different.
(24:08):
I've been looking into it researching it, and it's a
free to download three D rented design and it's known
as the f m as A Mother D Delta A
Alpha f Frank fmd A nineteen point two Chairman one remix.
(24:37):
Now the guy who designed it, I guess it's a
guy Chairman One does not want to be linked to
this shooting at all. But he had stated he was
shocked when he saw photos of the pistol, and he
acknowledged that it was his design. Then he got so
worried he deleted the post. Now Biden, I am not
(25:01):
pro Biden or anti Biden. I don't care to me,
They're all the same. In the White House, Biden had
proposed regulating these components that are used in homemade guns.
Did you know there are over twenty five thousand privately
made firearms that were discovered in one seizure in twenty
(25:27):
twenty two, twenty.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Five album, all untraceable?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Sheryl Well, I know.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
I mean here at the police department, I have a
couple of ghost guns that we've taken into evidence.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
But they are rare for us. They are super rare,
which tells me a couple of things. I know they exist.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
I know they're out there, so they're usually in the
hands of somebody that's not the fifteen year old gang member,
not the you know, crackhead burglar. This is somebody that
has gone to great express, great.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Time again to get this gun. A lot of the
guns that we are going to.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Seize from different burglaries, robberies, things like that, are going
to be somebody that stole the weapon in the first place,
out of somebody's car or home, and they either drop
it because it's no good to them anymore, or.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
You know, we get it when they are arrested.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
But the ghost guns, I would venture to bet are
less than one percent of what I've got in there.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
So let me talk to you about how long it
would take him to make a ghost gun. I've got
twenty to forty hours to make one ghost gun, which
adds to the.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Pre planning and great expense.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Because Nancy Hutton Caroline have a three D printer that
they got years ago, and they can make little toys
and things like that.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But there's a lot of material.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
I mean, this isn't something you just can buy one
little box of something and make it. There's a lot
of parts, there's a lot of materials and a ton
of time for that machine to work.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
So how does that factor into evidence?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
They're going to be able to take that gun because
one it was own him, and that is so critical.
They didn't find it in the woods, they didn't find
it in the water, and you and I talked. We
knew he was going to have that gun own him
because it meant so much to him.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
No way he was going to throw that away.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
It was like his little baby.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
It's like his baby, and the fact that it was
owning is paramount.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
The ammunition is going to be the same.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
The shell cases that the scene are going to be
the same as the ones that are sit inside the gun.
They're going to have the handwriting on there with the
permanent marker, so those are going to have fingerprints and
DNA on them as well. The gun's going to have
DNA all over it, so that gun is tied to him.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Period. Don't don't hit a serial number at all. I mean, Cheryl,
what a whack a doodle?
Speaker 4 (27:59):
This guy loving off his parents and a high rise.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
In Honolulu with a group that does nothing but surf
and they're living in this luxury high rise.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
I mean, you know how much that irritates me.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
But ah, and all the hours he's spent researching this
and making the three D printed gun, and just it had.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
To be hundreds and hundreds of hours that he's spent.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
And again he's got this whole thing in his head
about what's right, what's wrong, who's good, who's bad, And
he's the only one committing crimes.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
It's just unreal.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
And you know, again, like DC Sniper wanted to leave
the death Card, he wanted to leave Monopoly. It's their
tisted view of the world. And you know, Nancy, you
and I talked too about him, you know, being a
big fan of the Unibalmer.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
If you look at.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Who these criminals were research like Coburger, researching Bundy and
researching BTK, it'll tell you about them.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Him wanting to research the inn Obomber will tell you
about him.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And you know, my favorite quote from the Enbalmber is
when he said, I believe in nothing. And I think
this is true of this young man. He doesn't know
what he believes in because.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
His actions make no sense. What he put together makes
no sense.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
He's a walking contradiction that is way out of bounds
with his thinking.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
I'm curious why he didn't just have another back surgery
to get out of the pain he allegedly was in.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
He could have made all kind of decisions that were different.
It's a real shame.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I noticed that on his an ex account that's been
linked to him, he talks about the negative impact of
smart finds. He talks about healthy eating, exercise. He quotes
an Indian philosopher Beach de Murty about the dangers of
being quote well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. Yeah, okay,
(30:10):
Well of crap.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Where was he caught.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
McDonald?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, hugging a what was it, a hash brown?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Give me a freaking break. You can go get a
power bar if you want to.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
But you ain't.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Fooling anybody, because again, when you were caught, mister contradiction,
you're enjoying, you know, a big old biscuit and hash
browns and whatever.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
You don't know what you believe in. You don't know
what you're about.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
You do know, we're in the weeds right now, okay,
because we're talking about his hash brown and his quote
big old biscuit as you put it, when we could
be analyzing the facts and the evidence so on that note,
I will give you adieu and I will finish my va.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Did you know today's my mother's ninety third birthday?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Nancy, tell her happy birthday.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Amazing, I will, I will well, y'all go celebrate that, Lona.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
I think it's not that amazing when you're up with
her three or four times a night just to check
on her.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
This morning, I went in there with hot coffee. I
have to make it just right. She b I t
c h ed to hell him back the other day
because David took it upon himself to bring her a
cup of coffee.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
And it was too strong.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
And like David, you have to give her one third
of a teaspoon on decaf black. If it's eating more
than that, she will totally spit it out. Okay, I
wonder what it's going to hit him. He did not
sign up for this. But anyway, I took her coffee
and I made her homemade biscuits with melted butter okay,
(31:48):
and apple jelly on the side.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Okay, she has to have it in a little dish
on the side.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
And the first thing she said was before I could
even say how any birthday was.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
I can't get Andrea on the TV.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
You know who that is, right, Yes, Yeah, that's fantastic Andrea.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
But Kelly, I'm pretty sure See thinks they're in a
relationship because very often, very often, he'll have a stunning woman.
There are always somebody different come in and sing duets
with him, and she hates the woman, whoever they are.
He always hates them, just like hate hate, hate, Like
(32:32):
why is she singing with Andrea?
Speaker 4 (32:35):
He is ruining it for me, my mother. That's a
crazy TV criss on Andrea, Kelly.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
I love her. Listen, y'all go celebrate big. She is
an absolute gift.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
Do you dare? Remember her and my father coming to
a lot of my trials.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Of course I sat next to her. Remember when you
did the Mason Jar. She was so proud of you
because you've timed that so beautifully. Of course I remember.
I remember having all the dinners at Mary Max. Of course,
of course I remember going to her house. She gave
Zoe a he had a lesson right then and there.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
Yes, and another thing, you know, she worked so hard
to help us. You know, she had a full time job.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
She wouldn't get home, you know, six between six and
seven at night, and I would hear her to the
car horn coming up the driveway, and that was the.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Highlight of my day.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
And I'd run out to help her as she got
out the car, and she would have a stack of
papers that would go they'd be in her arms and
they go up to cover her face. And on top
of that would be a plug and calculator with the
cord dangling down, and I'd run help her carry all
of her stuff in. And I can remember, just like
(33:54):
it happened yesterday, that she would stand in the kitchen
making dinner, and she would want me to stand at
the kitchen table where we would eat supper and state,
you know, give deliver my four h demonstration. And I
could not look down at cards. I had to make
(34:16):
eye contact and know like a five minute presentation by heart,
okay about whatever it was that I was talking about forestry.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Or canning food, or home decorating or.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I don't know whatever, landscaping.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
But she did it all, Cheryl, she did it all.
So I do not mind one bit. Okay, taking her
her one.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Third of the teaspoon decaf black and hot, okay.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Right on, give her my love please, I will buy
my love. Bye, Honey.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
It is the sun of the road,
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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