February 14, 2025 • 29 mins
Today Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum open CRU with a heartfelt tribute to their friend and colleague, Dave Mack, following the loss of his wife, LaDonna. Despite his grief, Mack’s dedication to his work shines through. Nancy and Sheryl then dive into the latest developments in the Bryan Kohberger case, unpacking the discovery of two unidentified male DNA samples and what they could mean for the defense. They also revisit the case of Ellen Greenberg, a teacher whose suspicious death was ruled a suicide.
When you purchase a copy of What Happened to Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice all proceeds is going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children - NCMEC
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:10) Sheryl and Nancy honor LaDonna Mack
- (5:00) Latest on Bryan Kohberger case - two mystery DNA samples
- (7:00) Unidentified male DNA samples - a glove found outside, another on a banister inside
- (10:00) The controversy over demolishing the crime scene
- (14:00) The defense’s strategy to creating doubt
- (18:30) Ellen Greenberg case
- (21:00) What Happened to Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice
- (26:00) Valentine’s plans and closing thoughts
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Crime Roundup, Nancy Grayce.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I got to say something to you right out of
the gate.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
You, more than anybody that I know, whether it is
good or bad events with your friends. You don't jump,
you don't spring into action.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
You catapult.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
And I tell you this week, our sweet friend Dave
Mac lost his beautiful wife, Loadonna, and you catapulted into action.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
And I just, you know, my heart just breaks for him. Dave.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
It's not just a colleague. He is a very, very
dear friend. Can I tell you something about Dave Mac?
The first one up in the morning. Sometimes I think
it even beats me and he I get Dave is
responsible for so many things for crime stories, but one
(01:08):
of the main things he does is he comes up
with all that amazing sound like when I say, Brian
Kuberger just in court, blah blah blah. Listen, that's Steve
Mack saying, you know what has just happened, and then
I jump off of that and start talking about it.
(01:29):
And the reason I do that is because I figure
people get tired of hearing just me all the time,
so I like them to hear Dave or Sydney or
Jackie giving the news or any of our crime online
dot com reporters. They're all amazing. But that's Dave. And
at the last minute, if I say, uh, oh did
he got did he just cast some more charges? What
(01:52):
does he do? Rush in the studio it might be
twelve thirty at night and makes it all happen and
never complaints, never, never complains, and he never has to
have to ask him to do anything. He just comes
up with it on his own. I just saw Dave
(02:12):
and Lodonna at this function with jo Scott Morgan at
Jacksonville State and they were so happy and she, as
you said, it's beautiful, but there's something else about her
she has. I know this sounds hokey, but she had
an inner beauty like her. It just shone out from
(02:35):
her eyes. She just this beautiful, loving smile, just a
real sparkly personality. I always tell the twins, well, she's
just sitting at supper and they're just sitting there. I'm like,
this is a wonderful opportunity for you to work on
your sparkling conversation skills, and they just looking at me.
This woman lo Donna. She had the most engaging personality
(03:03):
and could talk. She could talk to a telephone pole,
and it would be interesting. Just one of those people,
you know, that person that walks in the room and
everybody looks and wants to be with them.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
That's Lodonna agreed, you know, in just a sweet, loving,
kind family. So we just send all our love to
Dave Mack today and.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Our prayers because this is a really, really hard time
and so unexpected, right, I mean, there's never a good
way for your loved one to pass on, but unexpected.
It's just such a shocker, you know, so you deal
with the shock of it and the grieving. We were
(03:51):
texting last night and he had gone home and I said,
how are you tonight? And he just he was just
sitting in the house like wasn't real, you know, it
doesn't feel real. And that just broke my heart. And
it was up till one o'clock thinking and praying, and hey, David,
you haven't got to take that squeaky thing away from there,
(04:11):
you guys from the dog, I can't hear a thing.
Eryle is saying, you got that degree from Wharton, make
use of it. Please wish you could see this. You
tried to take literally a rubber chicken wearing a purple
bikini away from the dog. He needed all the training
could get for this moment, this very moment.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Listen, speaking of craziness, let's talk about Brian Coburger and
this madness.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
I think I need a sip of tea for this
hold on. And by the way, David, I had to
make my own refeel what. Yes, you're in grave danger
of losing your position. He just walked off. I wonder why,
Okay where ones? I? Oh, yes, okay. I covered Brian
Coburger last night. And you know, for every hour I'm
(05:02):
on air, I pread for like two or three hours
because I'm especially when I do a hit like on
MSM with Doctor Phiel or Honey or because An or TMZ.
You never know what Eleven's gonna ask some crazy thing,
so it takes me forever to be prepared. Then they
never asked those questions I think they might ask. They
always go in a different direction. So I was prepping
(05:26):
on it. I gotta tell you something. When I was
covering it last night and going, oh, you know this
brand new mystery DNA. Part of it was on a
glove out in the parking lot and the others on
a handrail in the house. That could be anybody. But
the reality is I was taking the state's position. That's
not good. Do I think it's connected to the murder. No,
I do not think it's connected to the murders. But
(05:48):
a jury could be bamboozled. The State's really gonna have
to work on it. And this is an interesting thing
that happened. I was out in Moscow, and don't you
dare say Moscow. They do not like it. Just think
cost Co. I was in Moscow and there at the
(06:11):
crime scene for you know, really long hours, and I
had these actually I've gotten with me right now because
I used them on the set yesterday, really ugly green
gloves and the tip fingertips are cut out of them
so I can turn pages and all. And when I
was leaving, a lady came up to me and was
(06:33):
asking me questions, and I was stuffing them into my
pocket and dropped one in the parking lot and then
walked away. Her husband, who by the way, was a cop,
saw it and brought it to me. I dropped my
glove in the parking lot. Another thing that sticks out
of my mind was that our friend Chris McDonough, have
(06:54):
you ever actually gone to his channel on YouTube, the
interview Room. It's amazing, but it might take an hour
and a half to watch one episode. I had to
do it in spurts. But for instance, this is how
I found Chris mcdonah. He I had put in Google
something like a drive through of Moscow and it came
(07:21):
up out of the blue. I had watched like three
or four and then I found that started watching it
and he was driving through Moscow around the crime scene
in More at about three miles an hour, which is
just what I wanted. I wanted to look around and
see everything on both sides. And he was just talking like, well,
there's the gas station, and here's this, and this is
(07:41):
where you turn left and kind of giving me a tour.
That was before I went out there and saw it
for myself. And he's amazing. Anyway, he went to the
scene and he is the one that spotted a glove
in the parking lot in the snow kind of and
he didn't touch it, of course, and showed it to
(08:03):
police and I bet your bottom dog that's the glove
that was in the parking lot, bet you anything. I'm
happy that he got a picture of it and we
got to show it last night on Crime Stories. But
do I think they're connected? No, because anybody can drop
a glove in the parking lot. It reminds me of
Tera Grinstead. Remember the teacher in the Hazelhurst area, yep
(08:28):
went missing. Nobody could find her. That was a cold
case for years and years and years until they figured
out some ding dong students killed her and burned her body.
But there was a glove, a plastic glove of all things,
in her yard, and they felt for sure that had
to be connected. It was not. It was not connected anyway.
(08:53):
The other DNA. It's more troubling from a state's point
of view, Cheryl, as you already know, because it's in
the home. It's blood DNA. I'm not sure about the
type of DNA and the glove it could have been
where somebody wiped their nose for all I know. But
the DNA and the home they're both male DNA glove
(09:17):
and home on the banister. But surely you and I
have looked at that house every which way except upside down.
You know, you've got the ground floor where a Dylan
Mortenson in the roommate where they lived. Then you've got
the main floor. Then you've got the upper floor that
you know where we see that balcony for all I know,
(09:39):
the blood on the handrail is in the very bottom
of the house where he did not go or toberg.
We don't think went. We know, we didn't come in
that enter that way. I don't know where it's from,
or did somebody cut themselves when they were moving furniture.
This is a party house. There are hunt literally hundreds
(09:59):
of guys over the month and years that have been
in and out. There have been movers going up and
down those stairs with mattresses and furniture. I don't know
what that could be. It's unidentified male blood DNA, and
the defense is gonna have a field day with it.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Here's the bottom line. Do not tear that house down.
This is the reason why I said point blank. If
you tear that house down and then other evidence comes up,
you're never gonna be able to go back and double check,
triple check if there's something else.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Nancy, we don't know which banister.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Well, you and I don't know, but I'm sure they know.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
But I'm saying we don't know the direction of the print.
Was the thumb going up or down the steps.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
We don't know what deepa thumb. What are you talking about?
Woman as DNA? Nobody said fingerprint.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
No, no, not a fingerprint. But let's say it's a
transfer print. Let's say it's blood up the stairs, down
the stairs. All of that matters.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Honey, you've preached it to the choir. I said, don't
tear down the house. And what did they do? Tear
down the house.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
And you know, y'all have always said you can't hide
bad evidence, and this is one of those things.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
The prosecution has absolutely no choice. They have to address it.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Also another thing, the defense started crying that it was
newly discovered that they had not been provided the info.
That's not true that DNA was referred to in discovery
over a year ago. They don't know who it belongs to.
I'm sure they've run it through CODIS for a DNA
(11:48):
match with somebody behind bars. It's not just people behind bars.
I think, aren't government workers put into codis anybody that
a lot of people are in CODIS that don't have records.
But I guarantee you this is some boy student that
was in the home for whatever reason. It could have
been a nosebleed, and they could have been a fight,
it could have been moving further, it could be anything.
(12:11):
So now the fact that it's on the banister, the
defense is going to have a field day with that,
because Coburger, of course went up and down the stairs
to get up to that top floor. You and I
don't know right now where it was in the home.
And there's a difference if it's at the bottom of
the stairs, where we know the prop did not enter,
(12:35):
less probate if it means less to me. If it
is on that staireil just as you walk into the
victim's bedroom, that could be argued by the defense more.
But you cannot change the fact that his Coburger's DNA
(12:57):
is on the murder weapon, not she underneath the victim,
which places his DNA there at the time of the murder.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yep, same car seeing in the vicinity on tape.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Sang car and you know what, the fact that he
is always on a cell phone, then turned it off
at the time of the murders and then turned it
back on, and I drove that loop, Cheryl. I cannot
stress enough the way he drove home that night cost
(13:32):
him well over an hour. The direct route was about
ten minutes from there. From the King Road murder scene
to his apartment in Pullman about ten minutes. Why did he,
in the middle of the night, at three point thirty
four o'clock in the morning, drive an hour and twenty
(13:53):
minutes on back roads? And can I tell you something?
When I was driving that I had to almost stop
in the middle of the road. There are no it's like,
you know where I came from, Middle Georgia. No street lights,
no traffic lights, no businesses, no homes with porch lights on. Nothing,
pitch black. And it's a two lane and you encounter
(14:19):
big trucks like the kind that aren't supposed to drive
through the city, the big ones coming right at you.
And it was snowing, slash.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Raining that night.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
And I did it late at night, after midnight, so
I could see what it was like under those conditions,
and you'd see those blurry big lights of a semi
coming at you. I couldn't go off the edge of
the road, serl because there was a really deep shoulder
right there. I didn't want to take the rental car
off the road and go down in a ditch. So
(14:53):
I have to get over as far as I could
on this little two lane and just basically stop and
open the truck didn't hit me. And that happened over
and over and over. No real traffic like regular people cars,
just truckers coming through. I would say maybe ten to fifteen,
not that many on an hour and a half drive
(15:14):
came through and there was nothing, no light, no anything.
Why would he do that to get home this long,
circuitous route when he was ten minutes away.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I remember Chris mcgunna's video, and here's the deal.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Think how many places in that hour there is to
hide the murder weapon?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Oh yeah, we've talked about that a lot. You go
over a bridge, over a body of water. There is
a shopping area that at one point at the beginning
where you could throw it into a dumpster. Just oh
my goodness, so many plays. And you know you'd staked
out where there were cameras and where there were not cameras.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Sure, and there's a whole lot of nothing. There are
places you could pull over, dig a little hole, put
it covered up, and keep going. Nobody's ever going to
find it, Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
So that's the bombshell. Two mail two different mystery men
DNA at the murder scene, one out the parking lot
and glove one on a banister in that home. We
don't know where that multi storied home. That's the bombshell.
The defense is going to have a field day with that.
(16:24):
Now what Oh, I love the judge Hippler. Okay, So
one of the arguments the defense made was among many
of this ILK that let me see how I can
phrase this the best way. The judge said, just put
it in that shell. Are you trying to tell me,
(16:45):
miss Taylor, that the killer had two accomplices, because that's
the way she was arguing it, that they were all
three in on the murder. So either based on her argument,
the killer had two accomplices or these two guys, these
(17:07):
pretend guys framed Coburger. Okay, that did not happen. There
were also not three people that went into the home.
That's too far fetched. But those are the type of
arguments that are going to spring from this DNA discovery.
So I pray, I pray the state can get some
(17:29):
kind of a match on, but I don't think they
will because I guarantee you it's from some teen boy
that went to school there, that was in the house
that Pomba doesn't even remember. The incident that's actually something
they need to do is broadcasted and asked for people
volunteers that think it may be them. But of course
(17:50):
nobody's going to come forward because they'll be implicated in
a darn quadruple call a side unless they've got an alibi.
Like I graduated three years ago and I was working
in New York City that day.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Is there no way they can do genealogy.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I'm sure they're going to, or they darn well better.
That's oh wait, oh darn, there's another fact. I don't
know that that DNA was quote eligible in In other words,
I think that DNA maybe too small of an amount
or degraded. In other words, if it's out in a
parking lot mixed with ice and snow and mud. They
(18:24):
need to bring in off Ram Laves on this if
they haven't already, because that's their forte is degraded DNA
that nobody else can work with. They somehow manage to
do it, and they're right, But I would get on
that pronto.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Agreed, And here's the deal.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Just because the defense of saying it doesn't make it true.
They may already know that it's not something they can
put through and get ancestry, and.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
I also talk to you about another case, Ellen Greenberg.
Oh yes, okay, so this is what's happening with Ellen Greenberg.
Greenberg stab twenty times in the back, the back of
the neck, the back of the head, just covered in bruises,
bruising on her strap muscles which are around your neck,
(19:13):
deep under the skin, subduable under the skin. In the
last days, the parents have had a breakthrough. The medical examiner,
who his name is Osbourne, who declared this suicide and
wait first he said homicide. Then he has a closed
door meeting with the ADA an assistant district attorney who
(19:38):
got immunity on this Cheryl. That's not good. Why does
she need immunity? Why what happened that she has to
make sure before she talks to you, make sure she's
not going to be prosecuted. Okay, not good. He has
a closed medical examiner, has a closed door meeting with
the ADA who has immunity. Police. That's it, the ADA
(20:01):
police and the medical examiner. After that meeting, he comes
out and changes his homicide ruling to suicide. What they
thought nobody's going to notice. It has taken fourteen years.
I have been covering this case since I first found
out about it for years. I did a Fox Nation
full on special where we did a reenact at Jacksonville
(20:24):
State with Joe Scott. Was a very complicated and intense.
He did a fantastic job, like he always does. I've
been to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania to visit with the parents, just
everything I could think of. Finally, it's been fourteen years
(20:45):
of this. The parents are broke. They spent all their money,
sold their house, fourteen years of their life trying to,
you know, defend her honor she did not commit suicide,
and catch the killer. In the last days, the metical examiner,
they're set to go to a civil trial because no
one would prosecute it because of the ruling of suicide.
(21:10):
They're set to go to a civil trial. The medical
examiner is they're ready to testify, that Ada is going
to have to testify, and suddenly they agree to a
deal and the case is going to be reopened to
determine cause of death. So I'm just waiting for the
(21:31):
cause of death to be announced homicide God willing knock
on wood that they don't say un determined and then
go to an investigation as to who done it. But
I want to tell you about this. I worked so
hard on it. I just finished a book with my friend.
She's in an incredible fact checker, ben a an hour. We
(21:54):
worked so hard on what happened to Ellen? And I
want you to know, Cheryl, that when you buy this book,
all proceeds, every penny is going to the National Center
for Missing and Exploited Children. Wonderful And it is up
for pre order right now. Come old people, help Nick
(22:17):
Ba And I mean, the level of research is insane.
In this book. We went through every autopsy report, every
experts report, all of the facts, the surveillance video, interviewed people,
interviewed her friends, interviewed her high school friends, her college friends,
(22:38):
her work friends, her everybody, the relatives, the cousins, and
of course the mom and dad. I mean, uh, it
was exhausted, and I'm very proud of it. What happened
to Owen.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
With that amount of stabling.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
If more than had incapacitated her, had caused her to
lose consciousness, had been a fatal If she has more
than one fatal womb, that right there tells you she
didn't do it.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
If she got her lung if she got her heart,
if she got somewhere in her spinal column, all of
those things would lead you to believe it would be
impossible for her to do that to herself.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Okay, I don't want to go to deficon four too.
You in the weeds, but let me just tell you
you one of the wounds actually sliced her dura. D
You are a d delta, you are her dura. What
is that? I now know what it is. It is
(23:47):
a protective sheath clevering the spine. It's part of the spine.
How could she stab herself so deeply in the back
that she actually sliced her dura, her spine. And then
that's not the last wound. That knife, about a five
(24:10):
inch blade, was found shoved into her chest with one
hand and the other hand, believe it or not, was
holding a completely pristine white towel, no blood on it
at all. She had come home that day there was
a blizzard. She's a elementary school an elementary school teacher.
(24:32):
She gets home, stops to get gas, which you know says,
this is not a suicide. Why fill up your tank
if you're gonna go kill yourself anyway, That was because
she was afraid she's going to be snowed in, and
she wanted to have gas in case she needed to
get out somehow. So she starts her gas. She gets home,
she calls every students in her class family to make
sure the children got home. Then she starts making a
(24:56):
fruit salad, a big fruit salad for I guess an
early dinner.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And in the middle of.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Making a fruit salad, suddenly she goes, oh, I'm gonna
kill myself, and then stabs herself twenty times in the back,
the back of the head, the back of the neck,
the spine. She's covered in bruises important in various stages
of resolution. In other words, she's been getting bruised all
(25:22):
over her body for a long time. That's what that means.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
And that knife staying in place in her chest that
we know that's the last one.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
So if any of the others are fatal, she couldn't
have done it.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Oh, I got one more thing. I just went through
at you real quick. One of the wounds did not bleed,
which means she was already dead. Was supposed to order me.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
There you go, there you go. Well, we're going to
pre order that book. I got paid today, I'm gonna
do it.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
David, have you ordered a book not answering Black Boys?
Send them and go order you. But right now.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Listen speaking to David. It is Valentine's Day. What are
y'all doing? Fun?
Speaker 3 (26:09):
A robotics challenge?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Oh wonderful?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
What the good times roll? The twins both well, they're
both on a robotics team called the Sparks and they
are competing in a state robotics challenge. Oh they're so smart.
I can't stand it. And you know I'm getting all
up in that. Oh yeah, yes, I'm definitely going to
(26:35):
be there with a T shirt. I'm a robotics mom.
Let me enjoy my moments of proudness.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Okay, so they are plentiful. You should be proud every
day of those babies.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Crowd every minute, you know. I look at them. I
can't believe that something so amazing came out of me
and Cheryl. They did come out of me. I saw
them when the doctor lifted them up out of my
stomach and I saw them. I looked them in the
eye and they blinked at me. I'm like, I'm so
(27:09):
in love.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Walt and I are headed to Chattahoochie Ben State Park
where they're having a campfire newlywed game?
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Okay, white, white white. There's just so much in that
sentence that I need to understand. What you're head.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Where chattahoochie Ben State Park?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Well what they're having their version of camp fire newlywed game?
So you know, walk and I've known each other since
nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
We ought to walk away with this thing.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
So what do you what is what you're competing in it?
I thought you were a spectator.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
No, we're competing against O.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Lord help us all okay, what will you be doing?
Speaker 1 (27:45):
You remember the old Newlywed game where they said where
did you meet?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
What's his favorite food?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Well? Where did you meet? If you could tell in
high school what class?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Well it wasn't in class, it was actually in detention.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Okay. I knew that story was going to get worse
for something made me ask where? And now I know
that's why they say everybody, do not ask the question
you don't know the answer to. I would never have
done that on the stand. For all I us. Who's
gonna say out back under the bleachers? Okay, now wait
a minute, okay, wait a minute, what is his favorite food?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Walt's favorite food is probably pork of some type, probably barbecue.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Well you better nail that down.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
It's absolutely barbecue.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I remember they say things like what color is this toothbrush?
I'm like, I can't tell what color Davis toothbrushes. It's
so clogged with old toothpaste. I've tried everything. I put
it in the dishwasher. I even got those little brill things.
Oh excuse me, the elf got real things that put
it in the stockings at Christmas. You know, you stick
your toothbrush and it's supposed to get rid of germs.
I just find it laying around in the bathroom. He
(28:50):
wants to be filthy.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
It's like telling a pig get out of the mud.
Not gonna happen. He's just gonna be filthy.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's valientized, and we're gonna end on that romantical note.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Okay, you can go go to your kind to which
she bend nearly moved game. You need to practice your answers.
I love you, dearly, my dear Happy Valentine's
Welcome to the Crime Roundup, Nancy Grayce.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I got to say something to you right out of
the gate.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
You, more than anybody that I know, whether it is
good or bad events with your friends. You don't jump,
you don't spring into action.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
You catapult.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
And I tell you this week, our sweet friend Dave
Mac lost his beautiful wife, Loadonna, and you catapulted into action.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
And I just, you know, my heart just breaks for him. Dave.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
It's not just a colleague. He is a very, very
dear friend. Can I tell you something about Dave Mac?
The first one up in the morning. Sometimes I think
it even beats me and he I get Dave is
responsible for so many things for crime stories, but one
(01:08):
of the main things he does is he comes up
with all that amazing sound like when I say, Brian
Kuberger just in court, blah blah blah. Listen, that's Steve
Mack saying, you know what has just happened, and then
I jump off of that and start talking about it.
(01:29):
And the reason I do that is because I figure
people get tired of hearing just me all the time,
so I like them to hear Dave or Sydney or
Jackie giving the news or any of our crime online
dot com reporters. They're all amazing. But that's Dave. And
at the last minute, if I say, uh, oh did
he got did he just cast some more charges? What
(01:52):
does he do? Rush in the studio it might be
twelve thirty at night and makes it all happen and
never complaints, never, never complains, and he never has to
have to ask him to do anything. He just comes
up with it on his own. I just saw Dave
(02:12):
and Lodonna at this function with jo Scott Morgan at
Jacksonville State and they were so happy and she, as
you said, it's beautiful, but there's something else about her
she has. I know this sounds hokey, but she had
an inner beauty like her. It just shone out from
(02:35):
her eyes. She just this beautiful, loving smile, just a
real sparkly personality. I always tell the twins, well, she's
just sitting at supper and they're just sitting there. I'm like,
this is a wonderful opportunity for you to work on
your sparkling conversation skills, and they just looking at me.
This woman lo Donna. She had the most engaging personality
(03:03):
and could talk. She could talk to a telephone pole,
and it would be interesting. Just one of those people,
you know, that person that walks in the room and
everybody looks and wants to be with them.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
That's Lodonna agreed, you know, in just a sweet, loving,
kind family. So we just send all our love to
Dave Mack today and.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Our prayers because this is a really, really hard time
and so unexpected, right, I mean, there's never a good
way for your loved one to pass on, but unexpected.
It's just such a shocker, you know, so you deal
with the shock of it and the grieving. We were
(03:51):
texting last night and he had gone home and I said,
how are you tonight? And he just he was just
sitting in the house like wasn't real, you know, it
doesn't feel real. And that just broke my heart. And
it was up till one o'clock thinking and praying, and hey, David,
you haven't got to take that squeaky thing away from there,
(04:11):
you guys from the dog, I can't hear a thing.
Eryle is saying, you got that degree from Wharton, make
use of it. Please wish you could see this. You
tried to take literally a rubber chicken wearing a purple
bikini away from the dog. He needed all the training
could get for this moment, this very moment.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Listen, speaking of craziness, let's talk about Brian Coburger and
this madness.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
I think I need a sip of tea for this
hold on. And by the way, David, I had to
make my own refeel what. Yes, you're in grave danger
of losing your position. He just walked off. I wonder why,
Okay where ones? I? Oh, yes, okay. I covered Brian
Coburger last night. And you know, for every hour I'm
(05:02):
on air, I pread for like two or three hours
because I'm especially when I do a hit like on
MSM with Doctor Phiel or Honey or because An or TMZ.
You never know what Eleven's gonna ask some crazy thing,
so it takes me forever to be prepared. Then they
never asked those questions I think they might ask. They
always go in a different direction. So I was prepping
(05:26):
on it. I gotta tell you something. When I was
covering it last night and going, oh, you know this
brand new mystery DNA. Part of it was on a
glove out in the parking lot and the others on
a handrail in the house. That could be anybody. But
the reality is I was taking the state's position. That's
not good. Do I think it's connected to the murder. No,
I do not think it's connected to the murders. But
(05:48):
a jury could be bamboozled. The State's really gonna have
to work on it. And this is an interesting thing
that happened. I was out in Moscow, and don't you
dare say Moscow. They do not like it. Just think
cost Co. I was in Moscow and there at the
(06:11):
crime scene for you know, really long hours, and I
had these actually I've gotten with me right now because
I used them on the set yesterday, really ugly green
gloves and the tip fingertips are cut out of them
so I can turn pages and all. And when I
was leaving, a lady came up to me and was
(06:33):
asking me questions, and I was stuffing them into my
pocket and dropped one in the parking lot and then
walked away. Her husband, who by the way, was a cop,
saw it and brought it to me. I dropped my
glove in the parking lot. Another thing that sticks out
of my mind was that our friend Chris McDonough, have
(06:54):
you ever actually gone to his channel on YouTube, the
interview Room. It's amazing, but it might take an hour
and a half to watch one episode. I had to
do it in spurts. But for instance, this is how
I found Chris mcdonah. He I had put in Google
something like a drive through of Moscow and it came
(07:21):
up out of the blue. I had watched like three
or four and then I found that started watching it
and he was driving through Moscow around the crime scene
in More at about three miles an hour, which is
just what I wanted. I wanted to look around and
see everything on both sides. And he was just talking like, well,
there's the gas station, and here's this, and this is
(07:41):
where you turn left and kind of giving me a tour.
That was before I went out there and saw it
for myself. And he's amazing. Anyway, he went to the
scene and he is the one that spotted a glove
in the parking lot in the snow kind of and
he didn't touch it, of course, and showed it to
(08:03):
police and I bet your bottom dog that's the glove
that was in the parking lot, bet you anything. I'm
happy that he got a picture of it and we
got to show it last night on Crime Stories. But
do I think they're connected? No, because anybody can drop
a glove in the parking lot. It reminds me of
Tera Grinstead. Remember the teacher in the Hazelhurst area, yep
(08:28):
went missing. Nobody could find her. That was a cold
case for years and years and years until they figured
out some ding dong students killed her and burned her body.
But there was a glove, a plastic glove of all things,
in her yard, and they felt for sure that had
to be connected. It was not. It was not connected anyway.
(08:53):
The other DNA. It's more troubling from a state's point
of view, Cheryl, as you already know, because it's in
the home. It's blood DNA. I'm not sure about the
type of DNA and the glove it could have been
where somebody wiped their nose for all I know. But
the DNA and the home they're both male DNA glove
(09:17):
and home on the banister. But surely you and I
have looked at that house every which way except upside down.
You know, you've got the ground floor where a Dylan
Mortenson in the roommate where they lived. Then you've got
the main floor. Then you've got the upper floor that
you know where we see that balcony for all I know,
(09:39):
the blood on the handrail is in the very bottom
of the house where he did not go or toberg.
We don't think went. We know, we didn't come in
that enter that way. I don't know where it's from,
or did somebody cut themselves when they were moving furniture.
This is a party house. There are hunt literally hundreds
(09:59):
of guys over the month and years that have been
in and out. There have been movers going up and
down those stairs with mattresses and furniture. I don't know
what that could be. It's unidentified male blood DNA, and
the defense is gonna have a field day with it.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Here's the bottom line. Do not tear that house down.
This is the reason why I said point blank. If
you tear that house down and then other evidence comes up,
you're never gonna be able to go back and double check,
triple check if there's something else.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Nancy, we don't know which banister.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Well, you and I don't know, but I'm sure they know.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
But I'm saying we don't know the direction of the print.
Was the thumb going up or down the steps.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
We don't know what deepa thumb. What are you talking about?
Woman as DNA? Nobody said fingerprint.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
No, no, not a fingerprint. But let's say it's a
transfer print. Let's say it's blood up the stairs, down
the stairs. All of that matters.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Honey, you've preached it to the choir. I said, don't
tear down the house. And what did they do? Tear
down the house.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
And you know, y'all have always said you can't hide
bad evidence, and this is one of those things.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
The prosecution has absolutely no choice. They have to address it.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Also another thing, the defense started crying that it was
newly discovered that they had not been provided the info.
That's not true that DNA was referred to in discovery
over a year ago. They don't know who it belongs to.
I'm sure they've run it through CODIS for a DNA
(11:48):
match with somebody behind bars. It's not just people behind bars.
I think, aren't government workers put into codis anybody that
a lot of people are in CODIS that don't have records.
But I guarantee you this is some boy student that
was in the home for whatever reason. It could have
been a nosebleed, and they could have been a fight,
it could have been moving further, it could be anything.
(12:11):
So now the fact that it's on the banister, the
defense is going to have a field day with that,
because Coburger, of course went up and down the stairs
to get up to that top floor. You and I
don't know right now where it was in the home.
And there's a difference if it's at the bottom of
the stairs, where we know the prop did not enter,
(12:35):
less probate if it means less to me. If it
is on that staireil just as you walk into the
victim's bedroom, that could be argued by the defense more.
But you cannot change the fact that his Coburger's DNA
(12:57):
is on the murder weapon, not she underneath the victim,
which places his DNA there at the time of the murder.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yep, same car seeing in the vicinity on tape.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Sang car and you know what, the fact that he
is always on a cell phone, then turned it off
at the time of the murders and then turned it
back on, and I drove that loop, Cheryl. I cannot
stress enough the way he drove home that night cost
(13:32):
him well over an hour. The direct route was about
ten minutes from there. From the King Road murder scene
to his apartment in Pullman about ten minutes. Why did he,
in the middle of the night, at three point thirty
four o'clock in the morning, drive an hour and twenty
(13:53):
minutes on back roads? And can I tell you something?
When I was driving that I had to almost stop
in the middle of the road. There are no it's like,
you know where I came from, Middle Georgia. No street lights,
no traffic lights, no businesses, no homes with porch lights on. Nothing,
pitch black. And it's a two lane and you encounter
(14:19):
big trucks like the kind that aren't supposed to drive
through the city, the big ones coming right at you.
And it was snowing, slash.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Raining that night.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
And I did it late at night, after midnight, so
I could see what it was like under those conditions,
and you'd see those blurry big lights of a semi
coming at you. I couldn't go off the edge of
the road, serl because there was a really deep shoulder
right there. I didn't want to take the rental car
off the road and go down in a ditch. So
(14:53):
I have to get over as far as I could
on this little two lane and just basically stop and
open the truck didn't hit me. And that happened over
and over and over. No real traffic like regular people cars,
just truckers coming through. I would say maybe ten to fifteen,
not that many on an hour and a half drive
(15:14):
came through and there was nothing, no light, no anything.
Why would he do that to get home this long,
circuitous route when he was ten minutes away.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I remember Chris mcgunna's video, and here's the deal.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Think how many places in that hour there is to
hide the murder weapon?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Oh yeah, we've talked about that a lot. You go
over a bridge, over a body of water. There is
a shopping area that at one point at the beginning
where you could throw it into a dumpster. Just oh
my goodness, so many plays. And you know you'd staked
out where there were cameras and where there were not cameras.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Sure, and there's a whole lot of nothing. There are
places you could pull over, dig a little hole, put
it covered up, and keep going. Nobody's ever going to
find it, Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
So that's the bombshell. Two mail two different mystery men
DNA at the murder scene, one out the parking lot
and glove one on a banister in that home. We
don't know where that multi storied home. That's the bombshell.
The defense is going to have a field day with that.
(16:24):
Now what Oh, I love the judge Hippler. Okay, So
one of the arguments the defense made was among many
of this ILK that let me see how I can
phrase this the best way. The judge said, just put
it in that shell. Are you trying to tell me,
(16:45):
miss Taylor, that the killer had two accomplices, because that's
the way she was arguing it, that they were all
three in on the murder. So either based on her argument,
the killer had two accomplices or these two guys, these
(17:07):
pretend guys framed Coburger. Okay, that did not happen. There
were also not three people that went into the home.
That's too far fetched. But those are the type of
arguments that are going to spring from this DNA discovery.
So I pray, I pray the state can get some
(17:29):
kind of a match on, but I don't think they
will because I guarantee you it's from some teen boy
that went to school there, that was in the house
that Pomba doesn't even remember. The incident that's actually something
they need to do is broadcasted and asked for people
volunteers that think it may be them. But of course
(17:50):
nobody's going to come forward because they'll be implicated in
a darn quadruple call a side unless they've got an alibi.
Like I graduated three years ago and I was working
in New York City that day.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Is there no way they can do genealogy.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I'm sure they're going to, or they darn well better.
That's oh wait, oh darn, there's another fact. I don't
know that that DNA was quote eligible in In other words,
I think that DNA maybe too small of an amount
or degraded. In other words, if it's out in a
parking lot mixed with ice and snow and mud. They
(18:24):
need to bring in off Ram Laves on this if
they haven't already, because that's their forte is degraded DNA
that nobody else can work with. They somehow manage to
do it, and they're right, But I would get on
that pronto.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Agreed, And here's the deal.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Just because the defense of saying it doesn't make it true.
They may already know that it's not something they can
put through and get ancestry, and.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
I also talk to you about another case, Ellen Greenberg.
Oh yes, okay, so this is what's happening with Ellen Greenberg.
Greenberg stab twenty times in the back, the back of
the neck, the back of the head, just covered in bruises,
bruising on her strap muscles which are around your neck,
(19:13):
deep under the skin, subduable under the skin. In the
last days, the parents have had a breakthrough. The medical examiner,
who his name is Osbourne, who declared this suicide and
wait first he said homicide. Then he has a closed
door meeting with the ADA an assistant district attorney who
(19:38):
got immunity on this Cheryl. That's not good. Why does
she need immunity? Why what happened that she has to
make sure before she talks to you, make sure she's
not going to be prosecuted. Okay, not good. He has
a closed medical examiner, has a closed door meeting with
the ADA who has immunity. Police. That's it, the ADA
(20:01):
police and the medical examiner. After that meeting, he comes
out and changes his homicide ruling to suicide. What they
thought nobody's going to notice. It has taken fourteen years.
I have been covering this case since I first found
out about it for years. I did a Fox Nation
full on special where we did a reenact at Jacksonville
(20:24):
State with Joe Scott. Was a very complicated and intense.
He did a fantastic job, like he always does. I've
been to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania to visit with the parents, just
everything I could think of. Finally, it's been fourteen years
(20:45):
of this. The parents are broke. They spent all their money,
sold their house, fourteen years of their life trying to,
you know, defend her honor she did not commit suicide,
and catch the killer. In the last days, the metical examiner,
they're set to go to a civil trial because no
one would prosecute it because of the ruling of suicide.
(21:10):
They're set to go to a civil trial. The medical
examiner is they're ready to testify, that Ada is going
to have to testify, and suddenly they agree to a
deal and the case is going to be reopened to
determine cause of death. So I'm just waiting for the
(21:31):
cause of death to be announced homicide God willing knock
on wood that they don't say un determined and then
go to an investigation as to who done it. But
I want to tell you about this. I worked so
hard on it. I just finished a book with my friend.
She's in an incredible fact checker, ben a an hour. We
(21:54):
worked so hard on what happened to Ellen? And I
want you to know, Cheryl, that when you buy this book,
all proceeds, every penny is going to the National Center
for Missing and Exploited Children. Wonderful And it is up
for pre order right now. Come old people, help Nick
(22:17):
Ba And I mean, the level of research is insane.
In this book. We went through every autopsy report, every
experts report, all of the facts, the surveillance video, interviewed people,
interviewed her friends, interviewed her high school friends, her college friends,
(22:38):
her work friends, her everybody, the relatives, the cousins, and
of course the mom and dad. I mean, uh, it
was exhausted, and I'm very proud of it. What happened
to Owen.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
With that amount of stabling.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
If more than had incapacitated her, had caused her to
lose consciousness, had been a fatal If she has more
than one fatal womb, that right there tells you she
didn't do it.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
If she got her lung if she got her heart,
if she got somewhere in her spinal column, all of
those things would lead you to believe it would be
impossible for her to do that to herself.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Okay, I don't want to go to deficon four too.
You in the weeds, but let me just tell you
you one of the wounds actually sliced her dura. D
You are a d delta, you are her dura. What
is that? I now know what it is. It is
(23:47):
a protective sheath clevering the spine. It's part of the spine.
How could she stab herself so deeply in the back
that she actually sliced her dura, her spine. And then
that's not the last wound. That knife, about a five
(24:10):
inch blade, was found shoved into her chest with one
hand and the other hand, believe it or not, was
holding a completely pristine white towel, no blood on it
at all. She had come home that day there was
a blizzard. She's a elementary school an elementary school teacher.
(24:32):
She gets home, stops to get gas, which you know says,
this is not a suicide. Why fill up your tank
if you're gonna go kill yourself anyway, That was because
she was afraid she's going to be snowed in, and
she wanted to have gas in case she needed to
get out somehow. So she starts her gas. She gets home,
she calls every students in her class family to make
sure the children got home. Then she starts making a
(24:56):
fruit salad, a big fruit salad for I guess an
early dinner.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And in the middle of.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Making a fruit salad, suddenly she goes, oh, I'm gonna
kill myself, and then stabs herself twenty times in the back,
the back of the head, the back of the neck,
the spine. She's covered in bruises important in various stages
of resolution. In other words, she's been getting bruised all
(25:22):
over her body for a long time. That's what that means.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
And that knife staying in place in her chest that
we know that's the last one.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
So if any of the others are fatal, she couldn't
have done it.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Oh, I got one more thing. I just went through
at you real quick. One of the wounds did not bleed,
which means she was already dead. Was supposed to order me.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
There you go, there you go. Well, we're going to
pre order that book. I got paid today, I'm gonna
do it.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
David, have you ordered a book not answering Black Boys?
Send them and go order you. But right now.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Listen speaking to David. It is Valentine's Day. What are
y'all doing? Fun?
Speaker 3 (26:09):
A robotics challenge?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Oh wonderful?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
What the good times roll? The twins both well, they're
both on a robotics team called the Sparks and they
are competing in a state robotics challenge. Oh they're so smart.
I can't stand it. And you know I'm getting all
up in that. Oh yeah, yes, I'm definitely going to
(26:35):
be there with a T shirt. I'm a robotics mom.
Let me enjoy my moments of proudness.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Okay, so they are plentiful. You should be proud every
day of those babies.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Crowd every minute, you know. I look at them. I
can't believe that something so amazing came out of me
and Cheryl. They did come out of me. I saw
them when the doctor lifted them up out of my
stomach and I saw them. I looked them in the
eye and they blinked at me. I'm like, I'm so
(27:09):
in love.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Walt and I are headed to Chattahoochie Ben State Park
where they're having a campfire newlywed game?
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Okay, white, white white. There's just so much in that
sentence that I need to understand. What you're head.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Where chattahoochie Ben State Park?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Well what they're having their version of camp fire newlywed game?
So you know, walk and I've known each other since
nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
We ought to walk away with this thing.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
So what do you what is what you're competing in it?
I thought you were a spectator.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
No, we're competing against O.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Lord help us all okay, what will you be doing?
Speaker 1 (27:45):
You remember the old Newlywed game where they said where
did you meet?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
What's his favorite food?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Well? Where did you meet? If you could tell in
high school what class?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Well it wasn't in class, it was actually in detention.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Okay. I knew that story was going to get worse
for something made me ask where? And now I know
that's why they say everybody, do not ask the question
you don't know the answer to. I would never have
done that on the stand. For all I us. Who's
gonna say out back under the bleachers? Okay, now wait
a minute, okay, wait a minute, what is his favorite food?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Walt's favorite food is probably pork of some type, probably barbecue.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Well you better nail that down.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
It's absolutely barbecue.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I remember they say things like what color is this toothbrush?
I'm like, I can't tell what color Davis toothbrushes. It's
so clogged with old toothpaste. I've tried everything. I put
it in the dishwasher. I even got those little brill things.
Oh excuse me, the elf got real things that put
it in the stockings at Christmas. You know, you stick
your toothbrush and it's supposed to get rid of germs.
I just find it laying around in the bathroom. He
(28:50):
wants to be filthy.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
It's like telling a pig get out of the mud.
Not gonna happen. He's just gonna be filthy.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's valientized, and we're gonna end on that romantical note.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Okay, you can go go to your kind to which
she bend nearly moved game. You need to practice your answers.
I love you, dearly, my dear Happy Valentine's
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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