February 28, 2025 • 34 mins
Today, Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum unpack the latest twists in the Brian Kohberger trial, where the defense is citing autism in an attempt to remove the death penalty. They also examine the mysterious deaths of Gene Hackman and his wife, exploring possible causes and forensic clues. Plus, Nancy breaks down the newly unsealed Epstein files - what the names on the list could mean and the potential cover-ups or delays in making these documents public.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:30) CRU kicks off with a story from Nancy Grace’s early career
- (4:00) Tribute to Dee Emerson
- (9:30) Bryan Kohberger defense cites autism to get death penalty off table
- (10:55) ”All of these brilliant people had some degree of autism. Translation, that does not mean you cannot intend to do a crime, and it means you should not escape punishment for that crime.”
- (11:30) Speculations on Gene Hackman case
- (14:30) HAP Poem by: Thomas Hardy
- (17:00) Examining the placement of the pills found
- (18:30) Speculations of carbon monoxide poisoning
- (22:00) The Epstein documents
- (25:00) The systemic delays in prosecuting those connected to Epstein’s crimes
- (30:00) Darkside of when power is abused
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the crime round up. Y'all. It has been
a week. Nay Grace, how are you, honey? Well?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Between Brian Coburger, a Luigi Minngioni, and a missing girl,
my head is spinning. I recall in time, when you
heard this, you'd start running. I heard mister Slayton, my
boss at the District Attorney's office, they should come over
(00:40):
that loud speaker and go, Nancy Grace, come down to
my office. I'm like, oh lord, I had to wear
those back then. They had to wear high heels, horrible
horrible pantyhose or like a torture chamber. I know a
man invented them. And I full like, at that point,
(01:02):
believe it or not, you would have to wear either
a dress or a you know, skirt and a jacket
to court. Women did not wear pants to court, and
I thought it was crazy. But frankly, you know, I
was of the mind, whatever, just don't mess with my case.
You want me to dress up lay that final to
(01:24):
just leive me in Lode. I'm not leading a pants crusade.
I'm going to win this case. Screw you, basically, and
and you know that was my attitude generally. I just
wanted to try the case anyway. So I took off
running in those high heels. I got to hear my feet,
those heels are running down the steps. I got in
(01:45):
there and he was reading the paper behind his desk,
and I said, yes, sir, and he said he let
the paper down, looked at him and goes, do you
think you get too personally involved in your cases? And
I looked at him. I thought I didn't really thing.
I just said yes, sir. He looked at me. He
(02:05):
pulled the paperback and he went, all right, that was it.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
You know what, Nancy. I mean, I've said poor to you,
but you're one of those people that, through your life's
word taught the rest of us, because you know, you're
told at the academy, don't get personally involved, never show emotion.
That's not possible. It's either gonna be shown one way
or the other. And to me, if you're just natural
(02:34):
and authentic, the victim's family responds better, witnesses respond better.
You know, law enforcement to you was going to respond better.
And I've told this story before, but I'm to tell
it again because this is what pops into my head.
I'm at your house we're talking about a case. All
over your bed are cases, and I mean, I don't
(02:56):
know how many. It looked like one hundred to me
at the time. And you went over there and you
prayed over every case, for the witnesses, for the victims,
for the police officers, for the judge. And that still
stays with me today that this was not something you
were going to lead to chance. This was not something
(03:17):
you weren't champion, This is not something that you were
not personally invested. It might not have been your loved one,
but it was absolutely your case.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Well I appreciate that. I remember that too. Every trial,
Oh my goodness, because when I get to a point
where in my mind can't relax until I feel and
it's like this in everything, whether it's you know, a case,
whether it's helping Luci or John David on a Scout project,
I feel like I can't let go until I have
(03:52):
done every single thing I can possibly do to affect
the change. And then once I've done that, I'm idly
am calm because I've done everything I can think of
to do and sometimes the only thing that you can
do is pray. And I feel that way right now.
By the way about. D Emerson has been with me
(04:15):
for eighteen years. I'm going to get back to those
three cases and how I took us down the rabbit hole.
But I'll tell you how I got d Okay, I
needed someone because I was working three jobs hl N
Court TV and a radio show out on the West Coast,
(04:37):
and I couldn't keep it all. I could do all
the work, but everything else, I couldn't do anything else
but work. So Dean, as he wouldcall my Exeter producer,
Dean Sicole, said Okay, I've got some people coming for
you to talk to interview. And I interviewed one, then
the next, and that I'm like they were all horrible. Okay,
(05:00):
So anyway, finally I said, I when I come to
the office, I can't do this today because I've got
so much I need to attend to. Regarding the show,
he said, okay, I'll have one come over to the house.
I went fine to the apartment and you were the
door knocked. I was somebody night at the door and
went and got it in King Dee Emerson, and she
(05:23):
took out this two little bags. As she held them up,
they were too tiny, tiny, What do you say those
things that body suits. Adult would call it a body
set for a baby. I'll be a onesie. They were
little white, long slaved onesies that had a Thanksgiving theme
(05:44):
hand embroidered on the front. Oh, Happy Thanksgiving, and with
some pumpkins or something. I'm like, you're hired. That was it.
I just knew, you know how when you just know something.
And it wasn't so much them. Of course they did
wear them when they were precious to have a million
pictures of it, But there was just something about her
(06:07):
right just she blew in and it just felt like
a cool breeze, you know, that first day of fall.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yes, love it.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
That is what it was like. Eighteen years and now
d is in, I see you. I don't know what happened.
Nobody knows yet. She's been having seizures, just out of
the blue. I had to take the children to Texas
over the weekend to look at some schools, which I
secretly don't want them to leave home, but you know,
(06:39):
what can I do? So we're coming back. We were
texting the whole time back, and the next thing, the
next morning, I how did I read it? I saw
a note from her sister. I'm like, what and found
out that d was in the intense sivecurity. It had
seizures and they were so severe that they hadn't been
(07:00):
able to do an MRI yet. So we had the
MRI yesterday and it so shows she did not have
a stroke. But that's all we know. So I appreciate
everyone's prayers for d You know some people that are
just too good for this world. That's her. She's just
one of those. I've never heard her utter one curse word.
(07:23):
There have been times that I was so overloaded I
would have her take my mother out to lunch. Do
you know how excruciating they My mother has been kicked
out of multiple restaurants, including mid Pizza, to name one
of many, because she wants everything a certain way. If
he drives the people so crazy, they probably just say,
(07:45):
don't come back. I mean, she's not mean, she doesn't
curse it. Then she just drives them crazy.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Well, that apple don't fall far, I'm gonna tell you.
But poor Dave.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I mean, she's just wonderful and she's so smart. I mean,
she's worked for the Miss America Pagets, she's worked for
the Governor of Kentucky. One time I asked her, said,
what's the hardest thing you've ever done? It's easy. She
had to get a possum, and I guess it was
the governor's mansion in Kentucky. I don't know where it was.
(08:16):
She had to get a possum out of a closet
with approve. And you know how possums are. If you don't,
they hit it and they have these little triangular teeth,
and this is They're horrible.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And d is so petite, and so she's always so
well put together. I can't imagine her going after any possum.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Well she did, she did, and she got the possum out. Anyway,
please continue to pray for my beloved d. I oh,
I don't know what that would do without her. I
love her. Okay, Now how did that happen? Oh? Prayers, prayers, prayers.
That's where we were, prayers for d Emerson. Okay. Then
(08:57):
it went back to this is the mind game. It
helps stimulate your brains here to think how did I
get Okay? So then we went from it was about
praying over the files, and then it was about mister Slayton.
And before that I was talking about my head blowing
off because of so many cases because I care, all right,
I just get so. I think about when I think
(09:18):
about Luigia Mi and TIONI, A lot of people think
he's hot. I don't. They're insane, you know what I
think about. I think about the victim and his wife
and those two children, and now they're just bereft, and
everybody's talking about Luigi Manngoni is so handsome and save Mangione.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
What about him?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Nobody tried to It was to save him. What But
they're mad at him because he worked his rear end
off and made it to the top as the CEO.
They're mad. I just I don't get at how people
can be so blind as to what victims go through.
Between that and all this rigmarole about now Lynn Coberger
(09:59):
is claiming he has autism just to get out of
the death penalty. And don't you know those four victims'
parents are just so fed up with his BS. It's
just like one thing after it's a wave of BS
after the next wave and wave. It's just I think
about what they're going through.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
It is stunt after stunt after stunt. And you know,
he didn't have any learning disabilities or any issues getting
a freaking PhD.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
He's kidding bathing Okay, and not only that. Who jumped
up on the program the other day talking about that?
And I named all these people that I found out had,
you know, different severity of autism. Are you ready? Bobby Fischer,
the chess champion, the chess master, Ienstein, Jerry Seinfeld is
(10:53):
an autism advocate. I mean, it just goes on and on.
All of these brilliant people had some degree of autism.
That does translation. That does not mean you cannot intend
to do a crime, and it means you should not
escape punishment for that crime. I just I know the
(11:16):
parents are just fed up. Okay, there, that's how I
got down the rabbit hole. I had to unravel that
to figure out how I got to uh the files
on my bed. You're the one that brought that up. Okay,
I'm ready moving forward.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So, Gene Hackman, here's my first thought, because I would
go ahead and say it, so you can, you know,
talk to me again about my go.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
To Oh lordy lord, the dog. Of course, this is
the dog. Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Here's the reason. The dog didn't accidentally take any pills.
The dog didn't leave the door open. The dog didn't,
you know, leave himself in the home. So there's all
kind of key factors to me, starting with the doll.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I believe, just from what we know, which is not
a lot right now, I'm suspicions and this is not
going to be a wild criminal theory. I believe it
may have been from a carbon monoxide leak. That's what
I think based on what I know right now. Why
there is no exterior signs of violence. They weren't shot,
(12:26):
they weren't stabbed, they weren't bludding in the head. I'm
talking about Jene Hackman. There were no signs of theft,
nothing was missing. That's what I think as of right now.
And I'll tell you why. I think that. I had
a friend that largely lived on a marina in New
(12:51):
York at the I call it the Laguardian Marina. That's
not the right name, but you could see it when
you took off from Leguarty to look down and there
was some marina, so I was called it the Little
Guardian Marena. He I don't think he lived there, but
he was there all the time. I think he stayed
on his boat a lot. He his wife and two
(13:14):
of their adult children, were all found on the boat
dead around a card game from carbon monoxide. And I
remember analyzing that scene and why or why not it
could have been a crime. I was asked to, you know,
(13:34):
to come in and see what I thought about it,
and I didn't want it to be carbon monoxide because
I like to have someone to blame, because it just
makes you feel better. And I remember, I think it
goes back to a poem. I guess he didn't think
(13:55):
that was coming, And the name of the poem is
hapa He by Thomas Hardy is usually pretty bleeding eighteenth
century English author, but hap talks about I'd rather believe
(14:15):
that there was some evil, little godlike creature wishing torment
upon me, making my life hell, rather than it being happenstance, okay,
that everything is left up to chance, because the thought
that something horrible like that could just be by chance
(14:38):
is very neerving. You'd rather think, oh, this is what happened,
this is why it happened. And I think, as you
and I have discussed many times, is because people like
to insulate themselves against misfortune. In other words, you know
(14:58):
how you say I wouldn't have gone jogging at midnight.
I wouldn't have done this. I wouldn't have been alone
in a parking lot. I would have locked my doors.
I would have blah blah blah. I would have filled
in the blank because you feel like, Okay, that won't
happen to me, because I X and you can go
through life in your little bubble thinking it ain't gonna
happen to you. I learned that's not true when my
(15:19):
fiance was murdered. That said, I remember reading that poem.
I had dropped out of college when Keith was murdered.
I finally went back with the aim to go to
law school. And I remember my English professor, Kenneth Hammond,
(15:42):
what a voice, reading that out loud in class, and
it struck me and I was just sitting there and
it felt like I couldn't even move because that's what
it felt like with Keith's murder. It just happened. He
wasn't doing anything wrong. He's dead, right, same thing here,
carbon monoxide. I don't like that because I can't make
(16:04):
sense of it, and there's no one to blame, and
it's just like happenstance that it happened to you. See
what I'm saying. There's no rhyme or reason to it,
and I don't like that. I like analytical problems that
I can figure out and put back together and make
sense of it and then put it away in my
(16:24):
neat little world. I want that. And I think if
Gene Hackman that's what happened, that's just my guess right now.
Why Because analyzing the scene physically, there's no outward sign
of a struggle, although there were pills lying around, but
there's that's disturbing. That was disturbing. But they don't have
(16:45):
a knife, whether they don't have a gunshot, they're not
bludgeon they're not strangled. There's nothing taken so and the
dog too, So that would be a good explanation.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
What do you think, Well, if it were my scene,
I mean, obviously the are going to bother me. I'm
going to focus on that because you would think the
wife was sixty four. If he were trying to get
some pills and spilled them, it seems like that would
have been cleaned up and they would have been put back,
because that's something he's going to need in certain time increments,
(17:16):
and you want to make sure he's got enough of
what he needs. The fact that they were in two
different places. I would factor that I want to know
where the dog was found.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
But what do you mean they were in two different places.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
They weren't found in the same bed, dad, right, so
bea they were in two separate rooms. I don't know
because they haven't said yet where the dog was found,
but that would be interesting to me too. So again,
he has clearly not been in good shape. I mean,
he's ninety something years old. It's not like he's a
young man. And I'm saying her being sixty four. Let's
(17:49):
just say, if this was my case, I would want
to know has she recently been diagnosed with something herself?
Is there's some reason she might have taken pills or
given him too many if she accidentally had something happened
to him, did she take her own life? I would
have to look at it, that's all. You don't have
a choice but to look at it. You and I
(18:09):
our adult life has been spent fighting evil. We won't
that bad person. We want to be able to grab
them and put them in prison so that we feel
like we are safer, We've made the world safer. The
idea that something just accidentally was that traumatic, it's hard
for me. So when I get to a scene, if
(18:31):
it is an accident or natural, I still start with
worst case scenario because that's my job and I have
to rule that out first.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So okay, you know he was on a very very
strict diet. His wife. His wife was dedicated to keeping
him healthy and life, and even when they would go
out to dinner, which was rare, she would monitor everything
he ate. She was very, not in a bad way,
(19:03):
very devoted. I mean, my dad lived to age eighty seven,
and I still blame the hospital. If he hadn't gone
to the hospital, I squere. I think he's still be
loved today. But that said, she when he had his
first coronary thrombosis in his thirties. By the way she
devoted herself, I mean she had a very stressful job.
(19:25):
She was a CFO of a manufacturing plant, but she
devoted herself to his longevity. He began working out five
times a week, and I mean I'd have to run
to keep up with him walking. Everything he ate was
cooked a certain way, just and that's how I believe
(19:48):
Hackman's wife was Betsy. So everything was about helping him
keep going. And I wonder, I just won about that
how that plays into what happened. I don't think they
intentionally died. I don't think that they committed suicide together.
(20:09):
I don't think this was a suicide pack by carbon monoxide.
I believe as of right now that it was accidental
carbon monoxide poisoning downstair.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
But I'm just going to tell you if I get
to a welfare check and the door is a jar,
I'm concerned.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I agree, I agree, I'm just wondering. There is some
speculation that a car's motor, that car's engine may not
have been turned off, and that the exhaust went from
the garage into the house. Now with a door a jar,
that makes that less likely. But when that does happen,
(20:47):
you feel no pain, You don't know anything is wrong.
You just get sleepy and close your eyes. That's it.
Can we talk about Epstein? Now? Okay, this is bringing
up the whole specter of was he murdered? And I'll
tell you why, because a lot of people probably did
not want their information out there. You know, people kill
(21:11):
for all sorts of reasons that we think are illogical.
That we as we're sitting here, me having my hot tea,
thinking about going down and getting back to work. It's
easy first to sit back and go I would never
do with that. But you don't know what you would
do really. If you are in a corner, you're backed
(21:32):
into a corner. If you think I'm going to lose
my spouse, my children are are gonna hate me, I'm
gonna lose my job, I'm gonna lose everything if X happens,
whatever that may be. If people thought that and their
name because of whatever is in those documents.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Would they kill him?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Would they have him killed if they had the money
to do it. I mean, think about it.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Nancy, You and I know people that are in prison
right now killing somebody over a cigarette, exactly over their
entire reputation and home and family and stock portfolio.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Of course, now I understand that the new Epstein contact
list includes Alec Baldwin. Does it never end with him?
I mean, he shot a woman dead, He's still walking free,
Alec Baldwin with the wife with a fake Spanish accent,
pretending she grew up. Where did she say that she
grew up Spain? She didn't. I mean, what, that's a
(22:33):
whole other can of worms. I can't deal with people's
you know idiosyncracies when there's murder to be addressed. But
he apparently Alec Baldwin's on the list, Michael Jackson's on
the list, Minck Jagger or FK Junior's mom, Why is
she on the list? Just because you're on the list
does not mean that you are pimping little girls. It
(22:55):
means that you know he may have contacted you, or
you may have contacted him for what a reason. But
I guarantee you there are some people on that list,
not necessarily the ones I just named, like or of
case mother or any of them. That doesn't mean that
they are guilty of wrongdoing. But I guarantee you some
(23:16):
people on that massive list are guilty of wrongdoing. Yeah, absolutely,
I mean because look what happened to Prince Andrew. Why
would a prince be hanging around a pedophile? It destroyed him,
Look what it has done. So my point is, would
someone on that list see that information getting out as
(23:39):
motive for murder? As you said, people kill over a
cigarette and you know it's easy for us on the
outside of go oh well, they're inmates. He'll do anything.
I had a murder over a five dollars, right, well,
crack well, I say to say rock, but I didn't
know if anybody would know what that meant. A rock
is a hunk of a crack. Okay, a rock A
(24:01):
five dollar rock. Murder over a five dollar rock. I
had a murder of I remember. The defendi's name was
Bruce Hodge. He murdered miss Leola's only son because he
owed a twenty five dollars drug debt. I had another guy,
(24:22):
last name Zelder, shoot a mom who's sitting out in
her front yard in a lunge chair because he thought
she vouched for a drug dealer. It turned out she didn't.
She's just sitting there. She's dead right in her front
yard over what nothing. So yeah, I believe that people
(24:44):
would kill rather than have their reputation destroyed. And you
know that richer and more powerful people get, the more
they'll do to save that reputation and all that money.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
You know something that he came out of the case.
You just mentioned something good that came out of it.
The lady that you mentioned that was killed because they
thought she had snitched.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
He voup, he vouped for a drug dealer. Like, yeah,
his stuff is good, but what about.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
It after that happened. We never went to one house
and knocked on the door and left. Ever again, if
we went into the cut, we went to six houses
and knocked on the door, so nobody knew who we
were actually going to try to talk to. We were
acting like we were just doing a little you know,
(25:34):
a different little run at it if you will. And
sometimes we would take bogus wanted posters from even other counties,
Hey have you seen this guy? And usually personally, I
would always take the child molester, because even drug dealers
hated child blisters, so you could talk to anybody say
have you seen this guy? But let's say I was
going to try to find a rap victim and I
(25:55):
know she was an apartment you know four B I
would go everybody around her, including her, so that nobody
knew I was going to.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Talk to her. Mark we would sneak around the back doors,
and a great time to go would be any time
before three o'clock because that's when the doppers wake up.
Like the Empires, they are up all night and sleep
all day, So the best time to get them would
be about that time when they were just starting to
wake up.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
H So, oh, the good time, it's right the good times.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
So I don't know where this is going, but it
has been staying there. Absolutely will be prosecutions that are
arise from the release of these documents. It leads me
to question why if there are prosecutions to come from it,
then what have we been waiting for? What? Why are
(26:51):
they waiting for the documents Epstein documents to be public?
If the FEDS have had them all this time, why
haven't they on them. Why are they waiting for documents
to be made public before they do a prosecution?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Because it's bs that's why. Yeah, let's get old with it.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And again, I am not a Democrat, I am not
a Republican. I am just an American. But I'm curious
why has this already been released? Why is it now
being released? What's been happening since Epstein died? But didn't
have to wait on him to die to get these documents.
If these documents prove wrongdoing, especially on children or six
(27:33):
trafficking women, why has this not been released and investigated?
So what and who has been so important that it
be protected? And why?
Speaker 1 (27:45):
And that's the answer of sugar right there.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
So what do you think I think is.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
The largest child exploitation ring in history, and it should
have never taken this long. You need that first domino
to fall, and it will lead to the rest of them, period.
We know it. That house of cars needs to come
down prosecute the first one. Like you always said to us,
I will never forget you would say that courthouse is public.
(28:13):
Those doors should stay open. Everybody has a right to
come in here and sit and hear what this person
is accused of, and it should be known. Well, that's
how I feel. None of this should be a secret.
Your name being out there shouldn't be a secret at all.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, I'll tell you this. I don't know a lot
about the new US Attorney General, Pam Bondy, but she
is right that all of this needs to be released,
all of the Epstein files. And I'm curious as to
why the FBI hasn't already released them a full and
(28:49):
complete set of Epstein documents, Because whether you like it
or not, whether the defans agree with Trump or like
Trump or hate Trump, when she says do this, you
do it unless you believe it violates the law. And
this does not violate the law releasing these documents. So
(29:11):
I'm curious, very curious why they were not released already
and who was being protected. That's what I want to know.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
That's the question.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Amen, Yeah, that is the question, and everybody's I don't
think that it should have been any document should have
been released to a certain group of political influencers, which
apparently it was. I disagree with that, But that said,
the whole thing needs to be released. And I can
tell you this, heads would roll if I had anything
(29:43):
to do with it, if there are prosecutions to be
had and victims to be represented that were not so
I'm anxiously awaiting to find out who was being protected.
Don't you hate? Don't you hate? Can you find out
people within the system have been mishandling cases or a wrongdoing?
(30:08):
I'll never forget. I bet you remember this. I've told
you this before, and I'll try to be brief. I
worked on now they call it sex trafficking, right, but
then it was constatutory rape. A little fourteen year old
girl had been pimped, okay, and I was working the case,
and I was out on the street. We were out
(30:31):
trying to find witnesses, We were trying to find the girl.
The girl had vanished anyway, We worked the case. I
remember finding I didn't find her. My three undercover vice founder.
We went over to a flophouse off Stewart Avenue and
they said she's in there. I went in there. I
looked at the women that were in the room and
(30:51):
came out like, there's not a girl in there. Where
is she went? She's the one in those white boots.
Went back. The woman looked like she was thirty five,
thirty seven years old. She was fourteen. She had on
this crazy weed, false eyelashes. I mean, I look and
it was the girl. Anyway. By the time I got
(31:15):
her up on the stand, which was a debacle. By
the way getting her to the stand, she ran away.
She was afraid, blah blah blah. She looked like a
choir girl. Okay by the time I got a hold
of her anyway, so which she should have been if
this had not happened to her. But got the rest
(31:36):
of the story. My three vice guys that I worked
so hard with every day. So I was coming in
from an rayment calendar. I threw my stuff down. Somebody
had a TV going. I walked by it, and you
know how this federal court where they don't have cameras
in the courtroom. Sketches are so terrible, you can't everybody
(31:56):
looks like Quasimoto. I don't know who these people are.
What bottom like, oh whoa, whoa wait wait Atla's familiar?
Who is that? And it went across the screen. They
were my vice guys, my vice guys. We're in oors
jumpsuits in shekels in federal court. Like what happened. They
(32:17):
had been with others, stinging dopers, like when they would
raid dopers or Shane drug lords. They take their money,
they take their gold chains, their outronment, plasmas creeds. Yeah,
and I just went to my office. I shut the
door and I just sat there because I had worked
with them every day, had lunch with them at the
(32:39):
what was at the Southeast megabar by the courthouse. It
was three a meet and three, you know, every day
for months, and I couldn't believe it. So I remember
that feeling knowing that somebody you trusted that represents the
state have been doing something very very wrong. And that's
(33:03):
how I feel right now about these Epstein piles.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
I agreed, yep. I remember that case that was horrible
and it blew so many cases up. Yeah, it Oh,
so many guilty people. That was a horrible, horrible situation.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yep, yep. And I had and you know, the Green sleuth.
I had no idea that they were on to take
just you know, when I think back on it, they
always had a lot of cash, I think, but I
thought that was from their sake. I actually didn't think
about it of their second jobs. Because we would take
out the money to pay at Megabar, they would have
a crap ton of cash their wallets. I'm like, whoa
(33:43):
man get that paycheck in cash? Okay whatever? Oh Cheryl,
my goodness, Okay, I can't even get back to coburg Er.
I'm worn out with Epstein right now.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
We had a born out and listen, prayers for thee continued,
continued daily and just let her sister know if y'all
need anything, holler, well, I can tell you they need something.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
They need those prayers. Look, remember this, the Lord loves
us sinner. That's the only reason I ever get hurt.
He loves a sinner, let me tell you, so keep
those prayers coming, Cheryl.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Absolutely all right, honey, I adore you and I'll talk
to you soon.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Okay. Bye, dear,
Welcome to the crime round up. Y'all. It has been
a week. Nay Grace, how are you, honey? Well?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Between Brian Coburger, a Luigi Minngioni, and a missing girl,
my head is spinning. I recall in time, when you
heard this, you'd start running. I heard mister Slayton, my
boss at the District Attorney's office, they should come over
(00:40):
that loud speaker and go, Nancy Grace, come down to
my office. I'm like, oh lord, I had to wear
those back then. They had to wear high heels, horrible
horrible pantyhose or like a torture chamber. I know a
man invented them. And I full like, at that point,
(01:02):
believe it or not, you would have to wear either
a dress or a you know, skirt and a jacket
to court. Women did not wear pants to court, and
I thought it was crazy. But frankly, you know, I
was of the mind, whatever, just don't mess with my case.
You want me to dress up lay that final to
(01:24):
just leive me in Lode. I'm not leading a pants crusade.
I'm going to win this case. Screw you, basically, and
and you know that was my attitude generally. I just
wanted to try the case anyway. So I took off
running in those high heels. I got to hear my feet,
those heels are running down the steps. I got in
(01:45):
there and he was reading the paper behind his desk,
and I said, yes, sir, and he said he let
the paper down, looked at him and goes, do you
think you get too personally involved in your cases? And
I looked at him. I thought I didn't really thing.
I just said yes, sir. He looked at me. He
(02:05):
pulled the paperback and he went, all right, that was it.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
You know what, Nancy. I mean, I've said poor to you,
but you're one of those people that, through your life's
word taught the rest of us, because you know, you're
told at the academy, don't get personally involved, never show emotion.
That's not possible. It's either gonna be shown one way
or the other. And to me, if you're just natural
(02:34):
and authentic, the victim's family responds better, witnesses respond better.
You know, law enforcement to you was going to respond better.
And I've told this story before, but I'm to tell
it again because this is what pops into my head.
I'm at your house we're talking about a case. All
over your bed are cases, and I mean, I don't
(02:56):
know how many. It looked like one hundred to me
at the time. And you went over there and you
prayed over every case, for the witnesses, for the victims,
for the police officers, for the judge. And that still
stays with me today that this was not something you
were going to lead to chance. This was not something
(03:17):
you weren't champion, This is not something that you were
not personally invested. It might not have been your loved one,
but it was absolutely your case.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Well I appreciate that. I remember that too. Every trial,
Oh my goodness, because when I get to a point
where in my mind can't relax until I feel and
it's like this in everything, whether it's you know, a case,
whether it's helping Luci or John David on a Scout project,
I feel like I can't let go until I have
(03:52):
done every single thing I can possibly do to affect
the change. And then once I've done that, I'm idly
am calm because I've done everything I can think of
to do and sometimes the only thing that you can
do is pray. And I feel that way right now.
By the way about. D Emerson has been with me
(04:15):
for eighteen years. I'm going to get back to those
three cases and how I took us down the rabbit hole.
But I'll tell you how I got d Okay, I
needed someone because I was working three jobs hl N
Court TV and a radio show out on the West Coast,
(04:37):
and I couldn't keep it all. I could do all
the work, but everything else, I couldn't do anything else
but work. So Dean, as he wouldcall my Exeter producer,
Dean Sicole, said Okay, I've got some people coming for
you to talk to interview. And I interviewed one, then
the next, and that I'm like they were all horrible. Okay,
(05:00):
So anyway, finally I said, I when I come to
the office, I can't do this today because I've got
so much I need to attend to. Regarding the show,
he said, okay, I'll have one come over to the house.
I went fine to the apartment and you were the
door knocked. I was somebody night at the door and
went and got it in King Dee Emerson, and she
(05:23):
took out this two little bags. As she held them up,
they were too tiny, tiny, What do you say those
things that body suits. Adult would call it a body
set for a baby. I'll be a onesie. They were
little white, long slaved onesies that had a Thanksgiving theme
(05:44):
hand embroidered on the front. Oh, Happy Thanksgiving, and with
some pumpkins or something. I'm like, you're hired. That was it.
I just knew, you know how when you just know something.
And it wasn't so much them. Of course they did
wear them when they were precious to have a million
pictures of it, But there was just something about her
(06:07):
right just she blew in and it just felt like
a cool breeze, you know, that first day of fall.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yes, love it.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
That is what it was like. Eighteen years and now
d is in, I see you. I don't know what happened.
Nobody knows yet. She's been having seizures, just out of
the blue. I had to take the children to Texas
over the weekend to look at some schools, which I
secretly don't want them to leave home, but you know,
(06:39):
what can I do? So we're coming back. We were
texting the whole time back, and the next thing, the
next morning, I how did I read it? I saw
a note from her sister. I'm like, what and found
out that d was in the intense sivecurity. It had
seizures and they were so severe that they hadn't been
(07:00):
able to do an MRI yet. So we had the
MRI yesterday and it so shows she did not have
a stroke. But that's all we know. So I appreciate
everyone's prayers for d You know some people that are
just too good for this world. That's her. She's just
one of those. I've never heard her utter one curse word.
(07:23):
There have been times that I was so overloaded I
would have her take my mother out to lunch. Do
you know how excruciating they My mother has been kicked
out of multiple restaurants, including mid Pizza, to name one
of many, because she wants everything a certain way. If
he drives the people so crazy, they probably just say,
(07:45):
don't come back. I mean, she's not mean, she doesn't
curse it. Then she just drives them crazy.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Well, that apple don't fall far, I'm gonna tell you.
But poor Dave.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I mean, she's just wonderful and she's so smart. I mean,
she's worked for the Miss America Pagets, she's worked for
the Governor of Kentucky. One time I asked her, said,
what's the hardest thing you've ever done? It's easy. She
had to get a possum, and I guess it was
the governor's mansion in Kentucky. I don't know where it was.
(08:16):
She had to get a possum out of a closet
with approve. And you know how possums are. If you don't,
they hit it and they have these little triangular teeth,
and this is They're horrible.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And d is so petite, and so she's always so
well put together. I can't imagine her going after any possum.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Well she did, she did, and she got the possum out. Anyway,
please continue to pray for my beloved d. I oh,
I don't know what that would do without her. I
love her. Okay, Now how did that happen? Oh? Prayers, prayers, prayers.
That's where we were, prayers for d Emerson. Okay. Then
(08:57):
it went back to this is the mind game. It
helps stimulate your brains here to think how did I
get Okay? So then we went from it was about
praying over the files, and then it was about mister Slayton.
And before that I was talking about my head blowing
off because of so many cases because I care, all right,
I just get so. I think about when I think
(09:18):
about Luigia Mi and TIONI, A lot of people think
he's hot. I don't. They're insane, you know what I
think about. I think about the victim and his wife
and those two children, and now they're just bereft, and
everybody's talking about Luigi Manngoni is so handsome and save Mangione.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
What about him?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Nobody tried to It was to save him. What But
they're mad at him because he worked his rear end
off and made it to the top as the CEO.
They're mad. I just I don't get at how people
can be so blind as to what victims go through.
Between that and all this rigmarole about now Lynn Coberger
(09:59):
is claiming he has autism just to get out of
the death penalty. And don't you know those four victims'
parents are just so fed up with his BS. It's
just like one thing after it's a wave of BS
after the next wave and wave. It's just I think
about what they're going through.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
It is stunt after stunt after stunt. And you know,
he didn't have any learning disabilities or any issues getting
a freaking PhD.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
He's kidding bathing Okay, and not only that. Who jumped
up on the program the other day talking about that?
And I named all these people that I found out had,
you know, different severity of autism. Are you ready? Bobby Fischer,
the chess champion, the chess master, Ienstein, Jerry Seinfeld is
(10:53):
an autism advocate. I mean, it just goes on and on.
All of these brilliant people had some degree of autism.
That does translation. That does not mean you cannot intend
to do a crime, and it means you should not
escape punishment for that crime. I just I know the
(11:16):
parents are just fed up. Okay, there, that's how I
got down the rabbit hole. I had to unravel that
to figure out how I got to uh the files
on my bed. You're the one that brought that up. Okay,
I'm ready moving forward.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So, Gene Hackman, here's my first thought, because I would
go ahead and say it, so you can, you know,
talk to me again about my go.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
To Oh lordy lord, the dog. Of course, this is
the dog. Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Here's the reason. The dog didn't accidentally take any pills.
The dog didn't leave the door open. The dog didn't,
you know, leave himself in the home. So there's all
kind of key factors to me, starting with the doll.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I believe, just from what we know, which is not
a lot right now, I'm suspicions and this is not
going to be a wild criminal theory. I believe it
may have been from a carbon monoxide leak. That's what
I think based on what I know right now. Why
there is no exterior signs of violence. They weren't shot,
(12:26):
they weren't stabbed, they weren't bludding in the head. I'm
talking about Jene Hackman. There were no signs of theft,
nothing was missing. That's what I think as of right now.
And I'll tell you why. I think that. I had
a friend that largely lived on a marina in New
(12:51):
York at the I call it the Laguardian Marina. That's
not the right name, but you could see it when
you took off from Leguarty to look down and there
was some marina, so I was called it the Little
Guardian Marena. He I don't think he lived there, but
he was there all the time. I think he stayed
on his boat a lot. He his wife and two
(13:14):
of their adult children, were all found on the boat
dead around a card game from carbon monoxide. And I
remember analyzing that scene and why or why not it
could have been a crime. I was asked to, you know,
(13:34):
to come in and see what I thought about it,
and I didn't want it to be carbon monoxide because
I like to have someone to blame, because it just
makes you feel better. And I remember, I think it
goes back to a poem. I guess he didn't think
(13:55):
that was coming, And the name of the poem is
hapa He by Thomas Hardy is usually pretty bleeding eighteenth
century English author, but hap talks about I'd rather believe
(14:15):
that there was some evil, little godlike creature wishing torment
upon me, making my life hell, rather than it being happenstance, okay,
that everything is left up to chance, because the thought
that something horrible like that could just be by chance
(14:38):
is very neerving. You'd rather think, oh, this is what happened,
this is why it happened. And I think, as you
and I have discussed many times, is because people like
to insulate themselves against misfortune. In other words, you know
(14:58):
how you say I wouldn't have gone jogging at midnight.
I wouldn't have done this. I wouldn't have been alone
in a parking lot. I would have locked my doors.
I would have blah blah blah. I would have filled
in the blank because you feel like, Okay, that won't
happen to me, because I X and you can go
through life in your little bubble thinking it ain't gonna
happen to you. I learned that's not true when my
(15:19):
fiance was murdered. That said, I remember reading that poem.
I had dropped out of college when Keith was murdered.
I finally went back with the aim to go to
law school. And I remember my English professor, Kenneth Hammond,
(15:42):
what a voice, reading that out loud in class, and
it struck me and I was just sitting there and
it felt like I couldn't even move because that's what
it felt like with Keith's murder. It just happened. He
wasn't doing anything wrong. He's dead, right, same thing here,
carbon monoxide. I don't like that because I can't make
(16:04):
sense of it, and there's no one to blame, and
it's just like happenstance that it happened to you. See
what I'm saying. There's no rhyme or reason to it,
and I don't like that. I like analytical problems that
I can figure out and put back together and make
sense of it and then put it away in my
(16:24):
neat little world. I want that. And I think if
Gene Hackman that's what happened, that's just my guess right now.
Why Because analyzing the scene physically, there's no outward sign
of a struggle, although there were pills lying around, but
there's that's disturbing. That was disturbing. But they don't have
(16:45):
a knife, whether they don't have a gunshot, they're not
bludgeon they're not strangled. There's nothing taken so and the
dog too, So that would be a good explanation.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
What do you think, Well, if it were my scene,
I mean, obviously the are going to bother me. I'm
going to focus on that because you would think the
wife was sixty four. If he were trying to get
some pills and spilled them, it seems like that would
have been cleaned up and they would have been put back,
because that's something he's going to need in certain time increments,
(17:16):
and you want to make sure he's got enough of
what he needs. The fact that they were in two
different places. I would factor that I want to know
where the dog was found.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
But what do you mean they were in two different places.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
They weren't found in the same bed, dad, right, so
bea they were in two separate rooms. I don't know
because they haven't said yet where the dog was found,
but that would be interesting to me too. So again,
he has clearly not been in good shape. I mean,
he's ninety something years old. It's not like he's a
young man. And I'm saying her being sixty four. Let's
(17:49):
just say, if this was my case, I would want
to know has she recently been diagnosed with something herself?
Is there's some reason she might have taken pills or
given him too many if she accidentally had something happened
to him, did she take her own life? I would
have to look at it, that's all. You don't have
a choice but to look at it. You and I
(18:09):
our adult life has been spent fighting evil. We won't
that bad person. We want to be able to grab
them and put them in prison so that we feel
like we are safer, We've made the world safer. The
idea that something just accidentally was that traumatic, it's hard
for me. So when I get to a scene, if
(18:31):
it is an accident or natural, I still start with
worst case scenario because that's my job and I have
to rule that out first.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So okay, you know he was on a very very
strict diet. His wife. His wife was dedicated to keeping
him healthy and life, and even when they would go
out to dinner, which was rare, she would monitor everything
he ate. She was very, not in a bad way,
(19:03):
very devoted. I mean, my dad lived to age eighty seven,
and I still blame the hospital. If he hadn't gone
to the hospital, I squere. I think he's still be
loved today. But that said, she when he had his
first coronary thrombosis in his thirties. By the way she
devoted herself, I mean she had a very stressful job.
(19:25):
She was a CFO of a manufacturing plant, but she
devoted herself to his longevity. He began working out five
times a week, and I mean I'd have to run
to keep up with him walking. Everything he ate was
cooked a certain way, just and that's how I believe
(19:48):
Hackman's wife was Betsy. So everything was about helping him
keep going. And I wonder, I just won about that
how that plays into what happened. I don't think they
intentionally died. I don't think that they committed suicide together.
(20:09):
I don't think this was a suicide pack by carbon monoxide.
I believe as of right now that it was accidental
carbon monoxide poisoning downstair.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
But I'm just going to tell you if I get
to a welfare check and the door is a jar,
I'm concerned.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I agree, I agree, I'm just wondering. There is some
speculation that a car's motor, that car's engine may not
have been turned off, and that the exhaust went from
the garage into the house. Now with a door a jar,
that makes that less likely. But when that does happen,
(20:47):
you feel no pain, You don't know anything is wrong.
You just get sleepy and close your eyes. That's it.
Can we talk about Epstein? Now? Okay, this is bringing
up the whole specter of was he murdered? And I'll
tell you why, because a lot of people probably did
not want their information out there. You know, people kill
(21:11):
for all sorts of reasons that we think are illogical.
That we as we're sitting here, me having my hot tea,
thinking about going down and getting back to work. It's
easy first to sit back and go I would never
do with that. But you don't know what you would
do really. If you are in a corner, you're backed
(21:32):
into a corner. If you think I'm going to lose
my spouse, my children are are gonna hate me, I'm
gonna lose my job, I'm gonna lose everything if X happens,
whatever that may be. If people thought that and their
name because of whatever is in those documents.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Would they kill him?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Would they have him killed if they had the money
to do it. I mean, think about it.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Nancy, You and I know people that are in prison
right now killing somebody over a cigarette, exactly over their
entire reputation and home and family and stock portfolio.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Of course, now I understand that the new Epstein contact
list includes Alec Baldwin. Does it never end with him?
I mean, he shot a woman dead, He's still walking free,
Alec Baldwin with the wife with a fake Spanish accent,
pretending she grew up. Where did she say that she
grew up Spain? She didn't. I mean, what, that's a
(22:33):
whole other can of worms. I can't deal with people's
you know idiosyncracies when there's murder to be addressed. But
he apparently Alec Baldwin's on the list, Michael Jackson's on
the list, Minck Jagger or FK Junior's mom, Why is
she on the list? Just because you're on the list
does not mean that you are pimping little girls. It
(22:55):
means that you know he may have contacted you, or
you may have contacted him for what a reason. But
I guarantee you there are some people on that list,
not necessarily the ones I just named, like or of
case mother or any of them. That doesn't mean that
they are guilty of wrongdoing. But I guarantee you some
(23:16):
people on that massive list are guilty of wrongdoing. Yeah, absolutely,
I mean because look what happened to Prince Andrew. Why
would a prince be hanging around a pedophile? It destroyed him,
Look what it has done. So my point is, would
someone on that list see that information getting out as
(23:39):
motive for murder? As you said, people kill over a
cigarette and you know it's easy for us on the
outside of go oh well, they're inmates. He'll do anything.
I had a murder over a five dollars, right, well,
crack well, I say to say rock, but I didn't
know if anybody would know what that meant. A rock
is a hunk of a crack. Okay, a rock A
(24:01):
five dollar rock. Murder over a five dollar rock. I
had a murder of I remember. The defendi's name was
Bruce Hodge. He murdered miss Leola's only son because he
owed a twenty five dollars drug debt. I had another guy,
(24:22):
last name Zelder, shoot a mom who's sitting out in
her front yard in a lunge chair because he thought
she vouched for a drug dealer. It turned out she didn't.
She's just sitting there. She's dead right in her front
yard over what nothing. So yeah, I believe that people
(24:44):
would kill rather than have their reputation destroyed. And you
know that richer and more powerful people get, the more
they'll do to save that reputation and all that money.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
You know something that he came out of the case.
You just mentioned something good that came out of it.
The lady that you mentioned that was killed because they
thought she had snitched.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
He voup, he vouped for a drug dealer. Like, yeah,
his stuff is good, but what about.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
It after that happened. We never went to one house
and knocked on the door and left. Ever again, if
we went into the cut, we went to six houses
and knocked on the door, so nobody knew who we
were actually going to try to talk to. We were
acting like we were just doing a little you know,
(25:34):
a different little run at it if you will. And
sometimes we would take bogus wanted posters from even other counties,
Hey have you seen this guy? And usually personally, I
would always take the child molester, because even drug dealers
hated child blisters, so you could talk to anybody say
have you seen this guy? But let's say I was
going to try to find a rap victim and I
(25:55):
know she was an apartment you know four B I
would go everybody around her, including her, so that nobody
knew I was going to.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Talk to her. Mark we would sneak around the back doors,
and a great time to go would be any time
before three o'clock because that's when the doppers wake up.
Like the Empires, they are up all night and sleep
all day, So the best time to get them would
be about that time when they were just starting to
wake up.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
H So, oh, the good time, it's right the good times.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
So I don't know where this is going, but it
has been staying there. Absolutely will be prosecutions that are
arise from the release of these documents. It leads me
to question why if there are prosecutions to come from it,
then what have we been waiting for? What? Why are
(26:51):
they waiting for the documents Epstein documents to be public?
If the FEDS have had them all this time, why
haven't they on them. Why are they waiting for documents
to be made public before they do a prosecution?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Because it's bs that's why. Yeah, let's get old with it.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And again, I am not a Democrat, I am not
a Republican. I am just an American. But I'm curious
why has this already been released? Why is it now
being released? What's been happening since Epstein died? But didn't
have to wait on him to die to get these documents.
If these documents prove wrongdoing, especially on children or six
(27:33):
trafficking women, why has this not been released and investigated?
So what and who has been so important that it
be protected? And why?
Speaker 1 (27:45):
And that's the answer of sugar right there.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
So what do you think I think is.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
The largest child exploitation ring in history, and it should
have never taken this long. You need that first domino
to fall, and it will lead to the rest of them, period.
We know it. That house of cars needs to come
down prosecute the first one. Like you always said to us,
I will never forget you would say that courthouse is public.
(28:13):
Those doors should stay open. Everybody has a right to
come in here and sit and hear what this person
is accused of, and it should be known. Well, that's
how I feel. None of this should be a secret.
Your name being out there shouldn't be a secret at all.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, I'll tell you this. I don't know a lot
about the new US Attorney General, Pam Bondy, but she
is right that all of this needs to be released,
all of the Epstein files. And I'm curious as to
why the FBI hasn't already released them a full and
(28:49):
complete set of Epstein documents, Because whether you like it
or not, whether the defans agree with Trump or like
Trump or hate Trump, when she says do this, you
do it unless you believe it violates the law. And
this does not violate the law releasing these documents. So
(29:11):
I'm curious, very curious why they were not released already
and who was being protected. That's what I want to know.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
That's the question.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Amen, Yeah, that is the question, and everybody's I don't
think that it should have been any document should have
been released to a certain group of political influencers, which
apparently it was. I disagree with that, But that said,
the whole thing needs to be released. And I can
tell you this, heads would roll if I had anything
(29:43):
to do with it, if there are prosecutions to be
had and victims to be represented that were not so
I'm anxiously awaiting to find out who was being protected.
Don't you hate? Don't you hate? Can you find out
people within the system have been mishandling cases or a wrongdoing?
(30:08):
I'll never forget. I bet you remember this. I've told
you this before, and I'll try to be brief. I
worked on now they call it sex trafficking, right, but
then it was constatutory rape. A little fourteen year old
girl had been pimped, okay, and I was working the case,
and I was out on the street. We were out
(30:31):
trying to find witnesses, We were trying to find the girl.
The girl had vanished anyway, We worked the case. I
remember finding I didn't find her. My three undercover vice founder.
We went over to a flophouse off Stewart Avenue and
they said she's in there. I went in there. I
looked at the women that were in the room and
(30:51):
came out like, there's not a girl in there. Where
is she went? She's the one in those white boots.
Went back. The woman looked like she was thirty five,
thirty seven years old. She was fourteen. She had on
this crazy weed, false eyelashes. I mean, I look and
it was the girl. Anyway. By the time I got
(31:15):
her up on the stand, which was a debacle. By
the way getting her to the stand, she ran away.
She was afraid, blah blah blah. She looked like a
choir girl. Okay by the time I got a hold
of her anyway, so which she should have been if
this had not happened to her. But got the rest
(31:36):
of the story. My three vice guys that I worked
so hard with every day. So I was coming in
from an rayment calendar. I threw my stuff down. Somebody
had a TV going. I walked by it, and you
know how this federal court where they don't have cameras
in the courtroom. Sketches are so terrible, you can't everybody
(31:56):
looks like Quasimoto. I don't know who these people are.
What bottom like, oh whoa, whoa wait wait Atla's familiar?
Who is that? And it went across the screen. They
were my vice guys, my vice guys. We're in oors
jumpsuits in shekels in federal court. Like what happened. They
(32:17):
had been with others, stinging dopers, like when they would
raid dopers or Shane drug lords. They take their money,
they take their gold chains, their outronment, plasmas creeds. Yeah,
and I just went to my office. I shut the
door and I just sat there because I had worked
with them every day, had lunch with them at the
(32:39):
what was at the Southeast megabar by the courthouse. It
was three a meet and three, you know, every day
for months, and I couldn't believe it. So I remember
that feeling knowing that somebody you trusted that represents the
state have been doing something very very wrong. And that's
(33:03):
how I feel right now about these Epstein piles.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
I agreed, yep. I remember that case that was horrible
and it blew so many cases up. Yeah, it Oh,
so many guilty people. That was a horrible, horrible situation.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yep, yep. And I had and you know, the Green sleuth.
I had no idea that they were on to take
just you know, when I think back on it, they
always had a lot of cash, I think, but I
thought that was from their sake. I actually didn't think
about it of their second jobs. Because we would take
out the money to pay at Megabar, they would have
a crap ton of cash their wallets. I'm like, whoa
(33:43):
man get that paycheck in cash? Okay whatever? Oh Cheryl,
my goodness, Okay, I can't even get back to coburg Er.
I'm worn out with Epstein right now.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
We had a born out and listen, prayers for thee continued,
continued daily and just let her sister know if y'all
need anything, holler, well, I can tell you they need something.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
They need those prayers. Look, remember this, the Lord loves
us sinner. That's the only reason I ever get hurt.
He loves a sinner, let me tell you, so keep
those prayers coming, Cheryl.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Absolutely all right, honey, I adore you and I'll talk
to you soon.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Okay. Bye, dear,
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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