March 21, 2025 • 27 mins
Today, Nancy and Sheryl discuss the Kohberger case.
Nancy, never short on passion, dives into the Idaho case against Bryan Kohberger, unpacking the disturbing implications of his now-infamous bathroom selfie.
The duo break down the legal strategies around key evidence such as the shower curtain, text messages, and the 911 call, and explains how something as minor as courtroom attire could affect a trial’s outcome.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:35) Crime camp experience
- (3:00) Gatorland
- (6:30) Kohberger's selfie - red flags and legal implications
- (11:00) Eyewitness details
- (13:00) Frantic texts and the timeline of fear
- (15:00) Nancy explains legal nuances - hearsay, sequestration, and the jury
- (22:00) “ I wrote nearly every one of my own appeals, because I didn't trust anybody else to care as much as I cared about holding that conviction.”
- (0:00)
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Crime Roundup. I'm Cheryl McCollum and I
am joined with the just incomparable Nancy Graves.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
How are you, darling?
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Whytery, We'll get you everywhere if Errol will come if
you well know, Well, I'm angry and I want justice.
What else is new?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well, let me tell you something.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Let me just start by saying, I'm a bulldog through
and through. So It's hard for me to brag on
the University of Florida for any reason.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
But I must.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Oh, Lord, here it comes.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Over the weekend I was at the crime camp that
crime come through.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
You just have all the fun. I'm in a studio
and out slogging through crime say saying, you're at hunt Camp.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
They have got this place out there. It's called the
Austin Kerry Forest Campus. Can you imagine an outdoor classroom
with a pond and all these acres and acres of
the most gorgeous forest you've ever seen. And that's where
I got to teach clandestine grave location.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Oh that's a goody man.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I would love to make part of that at clandestine
grave location.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
David.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Did you hear that a clandestine grave location class? Oh? No,
does that mean, you're gonna be able to find David
when I bury him. I mean, excuse me when he
falls in the woods and episode top of him. He says,
every book I write is about him, that poor man.
And it's so funny, Cheryl, I wrote, which one was it, David?
Where the guy fell into the water at the what
(01:44):
is it, Cheryl? Where there are you go see Gatorlind?
Hees Gatorlind. We've definitely been there. And he thought it
was all about him. And then just right after the
book came out, we took the children to Gatorland. He
was sneaking around the outskirts.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I wonder why he ain't getting but you know what,
they had a beautiful pond there and we had a
gator show up and was just sudden in the self.
And so we talked about crime scenes have hazards, they
just do. And we talked a lot about you. People
ask me, what did you really like? I lie, Honey,
(02:18):
I protect you. Don't you worry about it. I tell
them the truth. You're one of the most kind, loyal, smart,
devoted people I've ever met.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
And that's the truth. That's what I tell people.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Oh, Cheryl, Cheryl, Cheryl Cheryl, thank you nobody. I'll believe
of course, But that's okay. Well as I like to
sell there, and I didn't go into that's expecting to
be crown this sweet potato and nothing could be listener
to the truth.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
So that's right. So what is your main.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Focus in the Clandestine Grave class?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
First they've got to locate it.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
They've got to be able to take this vast terrain
and see if they can find the actual grave where
somebody's been buried shallow or a really deep. Then they
got to get over there and the knees with tools
that recover those remains without damaging them. It was a
great class. They were fantastic, fantastic. They didn't let the
gator or the ticks or snakes deter them at all.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
It was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Okay, gators. Did they sign up for that? Did they
know gators would be on the itinerary?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I think they knew it was a possibility, because again
we're in Florida and any body of water could potentially
have a gator in it.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So now that's true.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Hey, I remember when I took the children the first
time and many times to NASA. Loved going to NASA.
And I noticed that they wrought iron. We lost a
chai chlink fence all around the compound. It was really tall,
and then at the top it bends backwards like toward
(03:54):
people on the outside, like a good two or three
feet of chain lick comes out backwards. And that's so
I said, look at that. I've never seen that before.
And I learned that it's because gators can climb up
chain link, but then when they have to go backwards,
they'll fall down. Wow, it's hard for me to explain
(04:15):
it without demonstrating it, but yes, there can I tell
you one more story speaking of gators. So during Todd Mom,
I did not even say those words, so you know
I had taken We moved down there for the duration
of the trial, and at the time I was also
(04:35):
working for ABC, you know, commenting on different cases, and
therefore we ended up going to dig Its me all
the time. So David and two babysitters because I needed
one babysitter to watch the other babysitter to watch the
other babysitter to make sure nobody mistreating the twin ends. Well,
(04:58):
go to Disney. Well, I would be at the courthouse
right part of Disney I just I think it's called
the Floridian, the Floridian Beautiful Hotel, and they have paddle
boats outside, And so we were all sitting outside after
I had gotten back from court that day, and John
David was throwing these little stones into the water, and
(05:20):
David said, get it my way, no water. I'm like,
first of all, do you actually think you can tell
me what to do? Number one? And number two in
that tone, and he went, there's gaters And I'm like,
this is Disney. There are no gators at the Floridian. Well,
I said, Oprah, Peek's like you're going to carry all
like that in front of other people, I'll go get him.
(05:41):
So it got him. Fast forward. It was about a
year later, I guess I don't remember the timing. A
little boy did get raight into the water from just
about that same spot.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Oh God, and I had that.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
I really hated to tell David. He was right about it.
A long time. Disney has put in place all of
these safety precautions, mets fence says, underwater security, blah blah blah.
They had tried everything, but one darn gator got through
(06:17):
and reaped habit point. David was right I guess you know,
even a broken clock is right twice a day. But anyway,
that said, he was right, I can't get away from it.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Speaking to gators, Hey, I got to have your opinion
on something.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Is that Kay Burger Diddy? What is it?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
It's coburger selfie. So my question when I saw it, obviously,
how many selfies in the past has he taken? How
many times has he taken a photograph with the thumbs up?
Did he post it? Why in the world would he
take that picture in his bathroom?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Well, obviously he's been watching Kim Kay Kim Kardashian and
all of her booty selfie is in the bathroom. I
don't know, but I'm so glad he did, big lause.
It really tells me a lot. First of all, did
you notice that when I started to talk about this
last night on Marit Street Media, as you know, will
(07:20):
air on YouTube today, and then I stopped because I
didn't really know the facts. The first photo I saw
of him and his selfie, the one I saw was cropped,
and I thought the shower curtain had already been removed. Remember,
as we discussed before, the shower curtain was missing in
(07:41):
the return on police documents. What is a return? When
police execute a search warrant, of course, approved by an
impartial magistrate or judge, they then have to complete a return,
a written account of everything seized during the sir, we
learned that there was not a shower curtain in Coburger's home,
(08:05):
and at first, in the clipped photo, I saw there
was no shower curtain, so I thought that was probative
and it would show me he's standing in front of
the shower. But a shower curtain has already been removed. Then,
when I saw a different angle of the selfie, the
shower curtain was not cropped out. At first, I la oh,
(08:27):
darn the gos my theory. But I thought about it
again last night, Cheryl, and it helps my theory because
in the time between that selfie the morning and the
murders and when police got there, the shower curtain had
been removed. Yes, I didn't think of that as we
were in the middle of a Q and A about Coburger.
We missed you horribly by the way, you and your
(08:48):
clandestine grave finding. But that said, I find that even
more probitent that before the police got there, he had
removed the shower curtain. I mean, there could be an
innocent explanation for that, but it's certainly worth thinking about.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
It is certainly worth thinking about because what did he
wrap in it? Where did he take something? Why would
you ever remove a shower curtain because there could be
blood splatter on it and be blood spatter on it.
But again, you're talking about removing a shower curtain after
you take a selfie where your hair is wet and.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
It shows the bushy eyebrows. There's no way to get
around that. The defense is trying to suppress the selfie.
They don't want the jury to see it. They also
are trying to suppress the nine on one call. They
don't want the jeury to hear that. They're trying to
suppress texts between Bethany and Dylan the night in the
early morning hours I call it the night is around
(09:43):
four a m. Of the murderers. But this, I think
the reason they don't want the selfie in is because
they're going to have him with his eyebrows plut to
helling back for the jury. But this creepy selfie could
provide a key detail of the case in that his
eye are super bushy, I guess he didn't think that
would come back to bite him in the neck, that's right.
(10:04):
And those eyebrows, you cannot then you go right to them. Yeah,
you look right at him. Plus he's smirking and the
thumbs up. And if the jury is convinced, if they
find him guilty, I predict this selfie it will be
State's exhibit number one at sentencing because there he is
(10:26):
smirking and offering a thumbs up to the camera right
after he, according to the state, has murdered for innocent
students in their beds.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
And again we're going to go back to patterns. You
and I preach it all the time. How many selfies
has he taken? How many is he taken with the
thumbs up? How many is he taken into the bathroom?
If it ain't many or this is the only one, again,
they're going to focus on that. Why why those earbuds?
I mean, there's so many things in that picture that
(10:58):
you can just tick apart, and.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
There's I immediately looked at his hands, the one hand,
but I don't see I didn't see these scratches they're
marking on them.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I didn't either.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I didn't see the other hand, and of course if
he were scratched by one of the victims, it may
not have been on his hand or arm. I believe
the witness said he was all in black, and that
probably would have included long sleeves, all in dark clothing.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
I looked at that hand as well, but Nancy, I
also noticed that collars buttoned all the way up.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
All the way. You're right. Morton soon told investigators she
opened her door to peek outside three times, and now
that we are reading the text between her and Dylan,
she they're trying to get together because one of their
phones is dying, and they both know something's going on,
and one tells the other one to just run to
my room really fast, and they were really afraid. She
(12:00):
tells investigators that the third time, this is after she's
been hearing things, she sees the man with quote bushy
eyebrows quote, dressed in black walk past her door and
head toward the sliding glass doors of the home. And
we've seen those there. I would say, it's hard to
describe it really. That there's the ground floor where there's
(12:24):
an entry door seems to me like it's kind of
like the back intrance. But that's where everybody parks. Then
there's a sliding door on the I call it the
second floor that goes out to a balcony. Then there's
a third floor. All of the floors had bedrooms on them.
So she sees the man with bushy eyebrows, dressed in black,
(12:45):
walk past her door and head towards the sliding back
doors of the home. And that was all around between
four twenty two and four twenty four a m. November thirteen,
Mortensen and Funk exchanging seventeen really frantic text messages afraid
(13:06):
someone is in their home. And you know what an
interesting thing is the defense is trying to keep the
texts out as well as the ninety one call the texts,
claiming that they aren't hearsay. What well, Number one a
cure to hearsay, which is like, if I said on
(13:27):
the stand, Cheryl told me blah blah blah, that's hearsay.
Why is that wrong? Why is that bad? Because six
Amendment gives you the right to cross examine any witness
against you. So if I say Cheryl said, they the
defendant doesn't have a right to cross examine you on
what you said, right, So they are claiming that this
(13:52):
is hearsay the text, but all the state remedy is
to put Bethany and Dealing on the state and they
can be cross examined. And I feel bad for them
because they're going to get gwilled. But also there's several
exceptions that would allow this in even if Dylan Bethany
don't testify residents. It's impression, excited utter, there's a million
(14:14):
ways to you know, there are exceptions to the yarsay rule. Anyway,
what's interesting is they're trying to contact all the other
roommates and no one is answering, and Dylan Mortensen says,
no one's answering, and I'm confused, and she's trying to
find out what's going on. And then Bethany says, come
(14:38):
to my room. Run because they're so afraid that's all
going to come in. And I found out something else, Cheryl,
And I know you've already listened to word for word
to the nine one one calls as if I we
hear a mail of voice, and in all the court
documents that male voice that mail was only identified by initials.
(15:05):
Now we find out it was Hunter and a friend
they called him or he came over and he went
in to one of the rooms where the victims were,
and then he wouldn't let Dylan and Bethany go in.
He goes, no, no, no, don't com man dot come in.
You can hear him yelling Xena, Zenna, Xenna and saying
(15:29):
call one one, call only one one. It's really upsetting,
very upsetting. But a lot of the attacks on the
two girls, Dylan and Bethany are put to bed now
that we have heard the night on one calls and
we have read the texts.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
There is no question when you go through that information
that they were aware, that they were awake, that they.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Saw this person.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
I mean she was within three feet, She was close
enough to describe his eyebrow. I mean that to me
would render somebody almost frozen in fear. I can't imagine
her not being paralyzed in fear.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
You know, I'm just thinking through everything that's being filed
right now. The defense is trying to ban clothing referring
to in memory of or T shirts about the death
penalty or a firing squad, any buttons, t shirts, any
(16:31):
apparental with their words, artwork, photos that gurors can see
that deal with either the victims or the firing squad
or death penalty. And they point out that in a
prior proceeding in court, someone or a T shirt related
(16:51):
to the firing squad. You know what, I think the
judge is going to grant that because I believe, as
I recall Cheryl buttons were disallowed in the Jodi Arians trial.
There were buttons, and I have one about the picture
of Trevis Alexander on them that was banned. I could
see the apparel being banned. Another issue is they're trying
(17:15):
to keep the victims' families out of the entire court
proceedings under the role of sequestration, which means if you're
going to be a witness, then you cannot hear the
testimony of other witnesses before your own testimony. There's a
reason for that. The Lady Justice does not want a witness.
(17:36):
Let me say that even unintentionally or unknowingly affected or
swayed by prior testimony, Like if you hear somebody else
say what they saw happen, that could instill memories in
you or enhance your memories. The law doesn't want that. However,
with victims' families, very often the role of sequestration is waived.
(18:01):
Also a cure for that is to put the family
members on first, and then of course that have to
be released from being called back. But if they're put
on first, then that way their testimony is over, so
it wouldn't matter if they heard other people's testimony. See
where I'm going with that?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Absolutely yep, well stated.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
But if there's a one catch through that, Cheryl, and
it's a sneaky move by the defense. When a witness
testifies on direct and then testifies on cross you, if
it's your witness, I have to say, made the witness
be released. You have to get them released. That was
a big mistake. Do you remember the oh what was
(18:44):
his name? The football player tried in Atlanta? I want
to say, ray what was his name? For shooting somebody
in a parking lot?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Oh? Yes, I know you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
It was Ray Lewis the prosecutor, and I believe it
was the then elected d Gay Paul Howard. He realleased
the witness, the defense witness, which was stupid. And then
when they needed to call him back, the guy was
already up in New Jersey and the judge wouldn't allow
him to be forced back, right, I mean the NAS
was right. If you potentially need that witness again for
(19:17):
any reason, you can't release them. You've got to say no,
he's subject to recross examination. They didn't do that. They
lost the case that said you'd have to get the
defense in this case. If they aren't going to do
anything to help the state to release the family members,
that way they can sit the courtroom, said, I mean,
because they're not going to be recalled. Am I going
(19:38):
to deaf? Come for in the law. Where's this's making sense? No,
it's making perfect said anyway, so we'll see where all
that lands.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
We shall see seems like another way to hurt the family, Yes,
it does.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Or just anything to throw off the state, to thwart
the state, because a little thing like that, that would
make me mad in court if the victims were not
released after their testimony so they sit in court, that
would make me furious, and that could throw off yours thinking.
Even if you don't realize this is throwing you off,
it could right, I mean, you don't want to be
(20:09):
in a state. Of course, I was furious every time
I was write a case. So get that is, but
you don't want anything to throw your concentration.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
You know it's one of those that there's already been
to me. I call them stunts. That's what it is
like when they want to be able to wear a
suit and I said, it ain't gonna work. I mean,
there's no way you can look at that guy, even
if he's in an orange.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Jumpsuit or an Armani suit. The jury is gonna see
what they're gonna see. Just like the selfie, even if
that was a.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Completely innocent photograph that he was taken to send his
mom before class.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Creepy. The thumbs up is creepy, the eyebrows are creepy.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
The way he's got the shirt all the way buttoned
up makes me think he was crashed. I'm just saying,
doesn't matter what you do once that's out there.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Well, are you saying that you think it's a stunt
that he doesn't want to wear prison blues or orange
to court for hearings when there's not a jury, Because
typically I would disagree with that, but in this case,
out of an abundance of caution, I think they're right.
And I'll tell you why, because those photos are disseminated
and gerrors are going to see them, and that would
(21:23):
be a perfect thing to ask, and I predict it
will be asked on Woodiere jury selection, which coincidentally means
to speak the truth in French. How have you seen
the defendant? I don't know. They may not bring it
up because then it would point out that he's been
in prison outfit? Have you ever sayd the defendant of
anything other than a suit? Have you ever seen the
defendant in a prison uniform? Because they can then argue
(21:47):
that juror should be thrown off because they have been
influenced knowingly or unknowingly. See what I mean? I mean
you got to pick your fights, and you got to
look at the law. You gotta play the long game.
You want this, you want a conviction, You want the
sentence that you want, and you want held on appeal.
(22:07):
You gotta hold that conviction. That is why I wrote
nearly every one of my own appeals, because I didn't
trust anybody else to care as much as I cared
about holding that conviction. So here do I care if
he where is the prison suit? No? I don't care.
Do I care if he's in shackles? I want him
in shackles. Twip the shackles, arms, waist and Pete. But
(22:29):
I want that conviction held. If there is to be
a conviction, so prison blues, orange jumpsuit, out, shackles out.
I want him wearing his arm money suit and man
escape to the max. So I don't have a problem
on appeal. You say where I'm.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Going, I do. And I feel the same way about
the buttons.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
If it's gonna influence somebody negatively towards somebody, that's not
okay either. However, I'm saying, if you put that man
in a suit and is defense attorney's packing him on
the back and they're laughing, the overall, you're trying to
convince somebody that something is true, and I don't think
they're going to.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Buy it, is all I'm saying. No, No, I agree,
I agree. Do you remember Scott Peterson. I mean, there's
only one way to put it. He walked into the
courtroom every morning with how do I say it without
demonstrating it, with his arms all puffed out, his back
bowed back, like he was a star football player walking
(23:28):
into the homecoming court in his suit, flanked by all
of his expensive lawyers. And they were expensive, let me
tell you. I mean, but when the jury looked at
that they's gone right through. It was all bs.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Right, absolutely, So you know, I don't underrest the managery.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
I think they're probably the smartest ones in the room.
They may not have a law degree, God bless them,
but they know what's going on. Easily fooled, I think
they are anyway. So let's just hope this jury doesn't
get tricked. They got to sneak in and pick on
my mom before I walk out the doorhole in one second. Hold,
(24:10):
I'm gonna turn on Andrea for her.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Okay, I'm free ow precious, that's the sweetest thing.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
She's how long wheels and we both know what?
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Okay, Well, listen, I know we have both got things
we've got to get on today.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
But I just appreciate talking to you always, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I have nothing more important to do than to get
a tree verdict to the coworker case. I don't know
what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
That's it's rude.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Actually, you know where I'm going right now. I'm on
the way to do to complete what I think will
be my last recording session for the audio book for
What Happened to Ellen's Great Ellen Greenberg. I've been doing
it for oh gosh, how long have we been doing a
David five weeks? So I think this is my last day.
I think I'm going to finish today. And I'd like
(24:56):
to point out that all the proceeds are going to
the National Center from Missing In It's.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Bo children right on. Well, congratulations and easy.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
That is huge. You know you're gonna listen to our audio.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
It's gonna be on audio that sounds Luke.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Winner right there. So, Cheryl, apparently Coburger's trial is in August.
I've never been to Idaho in August, but I guess
we will.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Sounds fantastic. I will load up the truck.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
But Cheryl, do you think we'll ever get the salad
wheel anywhere else? But de'll fight.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
We'll never get it anywhere else. I've looked. I tried
to buy one on Amazon. I hadn't thought of that much.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
And before I go, I want to thank everybody for
all your printyers, for my beloved d d Emerson, who
has been with me now almost eighteen years. We still
don't have an answer as to what was making her
have seizures, but I know they ended. If he is
walking and talking and it's a medical miracle, it is
(25:58):
a miracle. It is a miracle. Thank you for all
your prayers. I really do. Hey, you out your sister.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Fantastic, wonderful she is. You know, mentally she has won
that game from day one. She had such a great attitude.
And I'll tell y'all real quick. Doctor comes to her
two weeks ago and says, hey, there's some cancer in
both of your kidneys, but we're gonna get it. She
(26:25):
didn't even bolt, she didn't even hesitate. She trusts that man.
She's like, I know we're gonna get it. They go in,
they zap it. She doesn't even need chemo. They took
care of it. And she was so funny. She's like,
don't even put me on another prayer list. People have
already done enough for me. And I'm gonna be fine.
And she is fine. So she is rolling on.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Honey. Well, you can just tell her that I appreciate
ate her like of request. But I'm praying anyway, and
you know, I believe that the Lord. Here's my prayers.
Because you know, the Lord loves this center, loves the Center.
I don't think he cares that much when priests and
nuns and virgins show up with requests because he hears
(27:07):
them every day. But when a center shows up like.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Me, I think he might listen, like what, Yeah, well
we ignored that request. To Believe me, I believe in
the power of prayer because I've seen it with her.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I've seen it with d I've seen it with your mama.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
We've seen it. Amen, Cheryl, Okay, here's the justice, my buddy.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Bye honey,
Welcome to the Crime Roundup. I'm Cheryl McCollum and I
am joined with the just incomparable Nancy Graves.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
How are you, darling?
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Whytery, We'll get you everywhere if Errol will come if
you well know, Well, I'm angry and I want justice.
What else is new?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well, let me tell you something.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Let me just start by saying, I'm a bulldog through
and through. So It's hard for me to brag on
the University of Florida for any reason.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
But I must.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Oh, Lord, here it comes.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Over the weekend I was at the crime camp that
crime come through.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
You just have all the fun. I'm in a studio
and out slogging through crime say saying, you're at hunt Camp.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
They have got this place out there. It's called the
Austin Kerry Forest Campus. Can you imagine an outdoor classroom
with a pond and all these acres and acres of
the most gorgeous forest you've ever seen. And that's where
I got to teach clandestine grave location.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Oh that's a goody man.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I would love to make part of that at clandestine
grave location.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
David.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Did you hear that a clandestine grave location class? Oh? No,
does that mean, you're gonna be able to find David
when I bury him. I mean, excuse me when he
falls in the woods and episode top of him. He says,
every book I write is about him, that poor man.
And it's so funny, Cheryl, I wrote, which one was it, David?
Where the guy fell into the water at the what
(01:44):
is it, Cheryl? Where there are you go see Gatorlind?
Hees Gatorlind. We've definitely been there. And he thought it
was all about him. And then just right after the
book came out, we took the children to Gatorland. He
was sneaking around the outskirts.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I wonder why he ain't getting but you know what,
they had a beautiful pond there and we had a
gator show up and was just sudden in the self.
And so we talked about crime scenes have hazards, they
just do. And we talked a lot about you. People
ask me, what did you really like? I lie, Honey,
(02:18):
I protect you. Don't you worry about it. I tell
them the truth. You're one of the most kind, loyal, smart,
devoted people I've ever met.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
And that's the truth. That's what I tell people.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Oh, Cheryl, Cheryl, Cheryl Cheryl, thank you nobody. I'll believe
of course, But that's okay. Well as I like to
sell there, and I didn't go into that's expecting to
be crown this sweet potato and nothing could be listener
to the truth.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
So that's right. So what is your main.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Focus in the Clandestine Grave class?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
First they've got to locate it.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
They've got to be able to take this vast terrain
and see if they can find the actual grave where
somebody's been buried shallow or a really deep. Then they
got to get over there and the knees with tools
that recover those remains without damaging them. It was a
great class. They were fantastic, fantastic. They didn't let the
gator or the ticks or snakes deter them at all.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
It was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Okay, gators. Did they sign up for that? Did they
know gators would be on the itinerary?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I think they knew it was a possibility, because again
we're in Florida and any body of water could potentially
have a gator in it.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So now that's true.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Hey, I remember when I took the children the first
time and many times to NASA. Loved going to NASA.
And I noticed that they wrought iron. We lost a
chai chlink fence all around the compound. It was really tall,
and then at the top it bends backwards like toward
(03:54):
people on the outside, like a good two or three
feet of chain lick comes out backwards. And that's so
I said, look at that. I've never seen that before.
And I learned that it's because gators can climb up
chain link, but then when they have to go backwards,
they'll fall down. Wow, it's hard for me to explain
(04:15):
it without demonstrating it, but yes, there can I tell
you one more story speaking of gators. So during Todd Mom,
I did not even say those words, so you know
I had taken We moved down there for the duration
of the trial, and at the time I was also
(04:35):
working for ABC, you know, commenting on different cases, and
therefore we ended up going to dig Its me all
the time. So David and two babysitters because I needed
one babysitter to watch the other babysitter to watch the
other babysitter to make sure nobody mistreating the twin ends. Well,
(04:58):
go to Disney. Well, I would be at the courthouse
right part of Disney I just I think it's called
the Floridian, the Floridian Beautiful Hotel, and they have paddle
boats outside, And so we were all sitting outside after
I had gotten back from court that day, and John
David was throwing these little stones into the water, and
(05:20):
David said, get it my way, no water. I'm like,
first of all, do you actually think you can tell
me what to do? Number one? And number two in
that tone, and he went, there's gaters And I'm like,
this is Disney. There are no gators at the Floridian. Well,
I said, Oprah, Peek's like you're going to carry all
like that in front of other people, I'll go get him.
(05:41):
So it got him. Fast forward. It was about a
year later, I guess I don't remember the timing. A
little boy did get raight into the water from just
about that same spot.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Oh God, and I had that.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
I really hated to tell David. He was right about it.
A long time. Disney has put in place all of
these safety precautions, mets fence says, underwater security, blah blah blah.
They had tried everything, but one darn gator got through
(06:17):
and reaped habit point. David was right I guess you know,
even a broken clock is right twice a day. But anyway,
that said, he was right, I can't get away from it.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Speaking to gators, Hey, I got to have your opinion
on something.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Is that Kay Burger Diddy? What is it?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
It's coburger selfie. So my question when I saw it, obviously,
how many selfies in the past has he taken? How
many times has he taken a photograph with the thumbs up?
Did he post it? Why in the world would he
take that picture in his bathroom?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Well, obviously he's been watching Kim Kay Kim Kardashian and
all of her booty selfie is in the bathroom. I
don't know, but I'm so glad he did, big lause.
It really tells me a lot. First of all, did
you notice that when I started to talk about this
last night on Marit Street Media, as you know, will
(07:20):
air on YouTube today, and then I stopped because I
didn't really know the facts. The first photo I saw
of him and his selfie, the one I saw was cropped,
and I thought the shower curtain had already been removed. Remember,
as we discussed before, the shower curtain was missing in
(07:41):
the return on police documents. What is a return? When
police execute a search warrant, of course, approved by an
impartial magistrate or judge, they then have to complete a return,
a written account of everything seized during the sir, we
learned that there was not a shower curtain in Coburger's home,
(08:05):
and at first, in the clipped photo, I saw there
was no shower curtain, so I thought that was probative
and it would show me he's standing in front of
the shower. But a shower curtain has already been removed. Then,
when I saw a different angle of the selfie, the
shower curtain was not cropped out. At first, I la oh,
(08:27):
darn the gos my theory. But I thought about it
again last night, Cheryl, and it helps my theory because
in the time between that selfie the morning and the
murders and when police got there, the shower curtain had
been removed. Yes, I didn't think of that as we
were in the middle of a Q and A about Coburger.
We missed you horribly by the way, you and your
(08:48):
clandestine grave finding. But that said, I find that even
more probitent that before the police got there, he had
removed the shower curtain. I mean, there could be an
innocent explanation for that, but it's certainly worth thinking about.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
It is certainly worth thinking about because what did he
wrap in it? Where did he take something? Why would
you ever remove a shower curtain because there could be
blood splatter on it and be blood spatter on it.
But again, you're talking about removing a shower curtain after
you take a selfie where your hair is wet and.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
It shows the bushy eyebrows. There's no way to get
around that. The defense is trying to suppress the selfie.
They don't want the jury to see it. They also
are trying to suppress the nine on one call. They
don't want the jeury to hear that. They're trying to
suppress texts between Bethany and Dylan the night in the
early morning hours I call it the night is around
(09:43):
four a m. Of the murderers. But this, I think
the reason they don't want the selfie in is because
they're going to have him with his eyebrows plut to
helling back for the jury. But this creepy selfie could
provide a key detail of the case in that his
eye are super bushy, I guess he didn't think that
would come back to bite him in the neck, that's right.
(10:04):
And those eyebrows, you cannot then you go right to them. Yeah,
you look right at him. Plus he's smirking and the
thumbs up. And if the jury is convinced, if they
find him guilty, I predict this selfie it will be
State's exhibit number one at sentencing because there he is
(10:26):
smirking and offering a thumbs up to the camera right
after he, according to the state, has murdered for innocent
students in their beds.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
And again we're going to go back to patterns. You
and I preach it all the time. How many selfies
has he taken? How many is he taken with the
thumbs up? How many is he taken into the bathroom?
If it ain't many or this is the only one, again,
they're going to focus on that. Why why those earbuds?
I mean, there's so many things in that picture that
(10:58):
you can just tick apart, and.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
There's I immediately looked at his hands, the one hand,
but I don't see I didn't see these scratches they're
marking on them.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I didn't either.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I didn't see the other hand, and of course if
he were scratched by one of the victims, it may
not have been on his hand or arm. I believe
the witness said he was all in black, and that
probably would have included long sleeves, all in dark clothing.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
I looked at that hand as well, but Nancy, I
also noticed that collars buttoned all the way up.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
All the way. You're right. Morton soon told investigators she
opened her door to peek outside three times, and now
that we are reading the text between her and Dylan,
she they're trying to get together because one of their
phones is dying, and they both know something's going on,
and one tells the other one to just run to
my room really fast, and they were really afraid. She
(12:00):
tells investigators that the third time, this is after she's
been hearing things, she sees the man with quote bushy
eyebrows quote, dressed in black walk past her door and
head toward the sliding glass doors of the home. And
we've seen those there. I would say, it's hard to
describe it really. That there's the ground floor where there's
(12:24):
an entry door seems to me like it's kind of
like the back intrance. But that's where everybody parks. Then
there's a sliding door on the I call it the
second floor that goes out to a balcony. Then there's
a third floor. All of the floors had bedrooms on them.
So she sees the man with bushy eyebrows, dressed in black,
(12:45):
walk past her door and head towards the sliding back
doors of the home. And that was all around between
four twenty two and four twenty four a m. November thirteen,
Mortensen and Funk exchanging seventeen really frantic text messages afraid
(13:06):
someone is in their home. And you know what an
interesting thing is the defense is trying to keep the
texts out as well as the ninety one call the texts,
claiming that they aren't hearsay. What well, Number one a
cure to hearsay, which is like, if I said on
(13:27):
the stand, Cheryl told me blah blah blah, that's hearsay.
Why is that wrong? Why is that bad? Because six
Amendment gives you the right to cross examine any witness
against you. So if I say Cheryl said, they the
defendant doesn't have a right to cross examine you on
what you said, right, So they are claiming that this
(13:52):
is hearsay the text, but all the state remedy is
to put Bethany and Dealing on the state and they
can be cross examined. And I feel bad for them
because they're going to get gwilled. But also there's several
exceptions that would allow this in even if Dylan Bethany
don't testify residents. It's impression, excited utter, there's a million
(14:14):
ways to you know, there are exceptions to the yarsay rule. Anyway,
what's interesting is they're trying to contact all the other
roommates and no one is answering, and Dylan Mortensen says,
no one's answering, and I'm confused, and she's trying to
find out what's going on. And then Bethany says, come
(14:38):
to my room. Run because they're so afraid that's all
going to come in. And I found out something else, Cheryl,
And I know you've already listened to word for word
to the nine one one calls as if I we
hear a mail of voice, and in all the court
documents that male voice that mail was only identified by initials.
(15:05):
Now we find out it was Hunter and a friend
they called him or he came over and he went
in to one of the rooms where the victims were,
and then he wouldn't let Dylan and Bethany go in.
He goes, no, no, no, don't com man dot come in.
You can hear him yelling Xena, Zenna, Xenna and saying
(15:29):
call one one, call only one one. It's really upsetting,
very upsetting. But a lot of the attacks on the
two girls, Dylan and Bethany are put to bed now
that we have heard the night on one calls and
we have read the texts.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
There is no question when you go through that information
that they were aware, that they were awake, that they.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Saw this person.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
I mean she was within three feet, She was close
enough to describe his eyebrow. I mean that to me
would render somebody almost frozen in fear. I can't imagine
her not being paralyzed in fear.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
You know, I'm just thinking through everything that's being filed
right now. The defense is trying to ban clothing referring
to in memory of or T shirts about the death
penalty or a firing squad, any buttons, t shirts, any
(16:31):
apparental with their words, artwork, photos that gurors can see
that deal with either the victims or the firing squad
or death penalty. And they point out that in a
prior proceeding in court, someone or a T shirt related
(16:51):
to the firing squad. You know what, I think the
judge is going to grant that because I believe, as
I recall Cheryl buttons were disallowed in the Jodi Arians trial.
There were buttons, and I have one about the picture
of Trevis Alexander on them that was banned. I could
see the apparel being banned. Another issue is they're trying
(17:15):
to keep the victims' families out of the entire court
proceedings under the role of sequestration, which means if you're
going to be a witness, then you cannot hear the
testimony of other witnesses before your own testimony. There's a
reason for that. The Lady Justice does not want a witness.
(17:36):
Let me say that even unintentionally or unknowingly affected or
swayed by prior testimony, Like if you hear somebody else
say what they saw happen, that could instill memories in
you or enhance your memories. The law doesn't want that. However,
with victims' families, very often the role of sequestration is waived.
(18:01):
Also a cure for that is to put the family
members on first, and then of course that have to
be released from being called back. But if they're put
on first, then that way their testimony is over, so
it wouldn't matter if they heard other people's testimony. See
where I'm going with that?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Absolutely yep, well stated.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
But if there's a one catch through that, Cheryl, and
it's a sneaky move by the defense. When a witness
testifies on direct and then testifies on cross you, if
it's your witness, I have to say, made the witness
be released. You have to get them released. That was
a big mistake. Do you remember the oh what was
(18:44):
his name? The football player tried in Atlanta? I want
to say, ray what was his name? For shooting somebody
in a parking lot?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Oh? Yes, I know you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
It was Ray Lewis the prosecutor, and I believe it
was the then elected d Gay Paul Howard. He realleased
the witness, the defense witness, which was stupid. And then
when they needed to call him back, the guy was
already up in New Jersey and the judge wouldn't allow
him to be forced back, right, I mean the NAS
was right. If you potentially need that witness again for
(19:17):
any reason, you can't release them. You've got to say no,
he's subject to recross examination. They didn't do that. They
lost the case that said you'd have to get the
defense in this case. If they aren't going to do
anything to help the state to release the family members,
that way they can sit the courtroom, said, I mean,
because they're not going to be recalled. Am I going
(19:38):
to deaf? Come for in the law. Where's this's making sense? No,
it's making perfect said anyway, so we'll see where all
that lands.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
We shall see seems like another way to hurt the family, Yes,
it does.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Or just anything to throw off the state, to thwart
the state, because a little thing like that, that would
make me mad in court if the victims were not
released after their testimony so they sit in court, that
would make me furious, and that could throw off yours thinking.
Even if you don't realize this is throwing you off,
it could right, I mean, you don't want to be
(20:09):
in a state. Of course, I was furious every time
I was write a case. So get that is, but
you don't want anything to throw your concentration.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
You know it's one of those that there's already been
to me. I call them stunts. That's what it is
like when they want to be able to wear a
suit and I said, it ain't gonna work. I mean,
there's no way you can look at that guy, even
if he's in an orange.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Jumpsuit or an Armani suit. The jury is gonna see
what they're gonna see. Just like the selfie, even if
that was a.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Completely innocent photograph that he was taken to send his
mom before class.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Creepy. The thumbs up is creepy, the eyebrows are creepy.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
The way he's got the shirt all the way buttoned
up makes me think he was crashed. I'm just saying,
doesn't matter what you do once that's out there.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Well, are you saying that you think it's a stunt
that he doesn't want to wear prison blues or orange
to court for hearings when there's not a jury, Because
typically I would disagree with that, but in this case,
out of an abundance of caution, I think they're right.
And I'll tell you why, because those photos are disseminated
and gerrors are going to see them, and that would
(21:23):
be a perfect thing to ask, and I predict it
will be asked on Woodiere jury selection, which coincidentally means
to speak the truth in French. How have you seen
the defendant? I don't know. They may not bring it
up because then it would point out that he's been
in prison outfit? Have you ever sayd the defendant of
anything other than a suit? Have you ever seen the
defendant in a prison uniform? Because they can then argue
(21:47):
that juror should be thrown off because they have been
influenced knowingly or unknowingly. See what I mean? I mean
you got to pick your fights, and you got to
look at the law. You gotta play the long game.
You want this, you want a conviction, You want the
sentence that you want, and you want held on appeal.
(22:07):
You gotta hold that conviction. That is why I wrote
nearly every one of my own appeals, because I didn't
trust anybody else to care as much as I cared
about holding that conviction. So here do I care if
he where is the prison suit? No? I don't care.
Do I care if he's in shackles? I want him
in shackles. Twip the shackles, arms, waist and Pete. But
(22:29):
I want that conviction held. If there is to be
a conviction, so prison blues, orange jumpsuit, out, shackles out.
I want him wearing his arm money suit and man
escape to the max. So I don't have a problem
on appeal. You say where I'm.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Going, I do. And I feel the same way about
the buttons.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
If it's gonna influence somebody negatively towards somebody, that's not
okay either. However, I'm saying, if you put that man
in a suit and is defense attorney's packing him on
the back and they're laughing, the overall, you're trying to
convince somebody that something is true, and I don't think
they're going to.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Buy it, is all I'm saying. No, No, I agree,
I agree. Do you remember Scott Peterson. I mean, there's
only one way to put it. He walked into the
courtroom every morning with how do I say it without
demonstrating it, with his arms all puffed out, his back
bowed back, like he was a star football player walking
(23:28):
into the homecoming court in his suit, flanked by all
of his expensive lawyers. And they were expensive, let me
tell you. I mean, but when the jury looked at
that they's gone right through. It was all bs.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Right, absolutely, So you know, I don't underrest the managery.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
I think they're probably the smartest ones in the room.
They may not have a law degree, God bless them,
but they know what's going on. Easily fooled, I think
they are anyway. So let's just hope this jury doesn't
get tricked. They got to sneak in and pick on
my mom before I walk out the doorhole in one second. Hold,
(24:10):
I'm gonna turn on Andrea for her.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Okay, I'm free ow precious, that's the sweetest thing.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
She's how long wheels and we both know what?
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Okay, Well, listen, I know we have both got things
we've got to get on today.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
But I just appreciate talking to you always, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I have nothing more important to do than to get
a tree verdict to the coworker case. I don't know
what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
That's it's rude.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Actually, you know where I'm going right now. I'm on
the way to do to complete what I think will
be my last recording session for the audio book for
What Happened to Ellen's Great Ellen Greenberg. I've been doing
it for oh gosh, how long have we been doing a
David five weeks? So I think this is my last day.
I think I'm going to finish today. And I'd like
(24:56):
to point out that all the proceeds are going to
the National Center from Missing In It's.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Bo children right on. Well, congratulations and easy.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
That is huge. You know you're gonna listen to our audio.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
It's gonna be on audio that sounds Luke.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Winner right there. So, Cheryl, apparently Coburger's trial is in August.
I've never been to Idaho in August, but I guess
we will.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Sounds fantastic. I will load up the truck.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
But Cheryl, do you think we'll ever get the salad
wheel anywhere else? But de'll fight.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
We'll never get it anywhere else. I've looked. I tried
to buy one on Amazon. I hadn't thought of that much.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
And before I go, I want to thank everybody for
all your printyers, for my beloved d d Emerson, who
has been with me now almost eighteen years. We still
don't have an answer as to what was making her
have seizures, but I know they ended. If he is
walking and talking and it's a medical miracle, it is
(25:58):
a miracle. It is a miracle. Thank you for all
your prayers. I really do. Hey, you out your sister.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Fantastic, wonderful she is. You know, mentally she has won
that game from day one. She had such a great attitude.
And I'll tell y'all real quick. Doctor comes to her
two weeks ago and says, hey, there's some cancer in
both of your kidneys, but we're gonna get it. She
(26:25):
didn't even bolt, she didn't even hesitate. She trusts that man.
She's like, I know we're gonna get it. They go in,
they zap it. She doesn't even need chemo. They took
care of it. And she was so funny. She's like,
don't even put me on another prayer list. People have
already done enough for me. And I'm gonna be fine.
And she is fine. So she is rolling on.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Honey. Well, you can just tell her that I appreciate
ate her like of request. But I'm praying anyway, and
you know, I believe that the Lord. Here's my prayers.
Because you know, the Lord loves this center, loves the Center.
I don't think he cares that much when priests and
nuns and virgins show up with requests because he hears
(27:07):
them every day. But when a center shows up like.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Me, I think he might listen, like what, Yeah, well
we ignored that request. To Believe me, I believe in
the power of prayer because I've seen it with her.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I've seen it with d I've seen it with your mama.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
We've seen it. Amen, Cheryl, Okay, here's the justice, my buddy.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Bye honey,
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com