Today Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum break down how small forensic details like a balaclava, a knife sheath, and an Amazon purchase, can construct a damning mosaic of guilt. Sheryl emphasizes the importance of visual testimony and the nuanced strategies prosecutors must deploy when sequencing their witnesses. Nancy and Sheryl draw parallels from cases like Casey Anthony, Ted Bundy, and Lori Vallow, showing how digital footprints, careless mistakes, and chilling premeditation can expose even the most calculated crimes. Lastly, the two probe how character witnesses, or the lack thereof, may influence the perception of innocence or guilt.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:15) Happy Birthday to host, Sheryl McCollum (actual birthday March 25th)
- (2:00) Updates on Bryan Kohberger case
- (2:25) ”Don't order your crime doings on Amazon or leave a credit card trail.”
- (3:00) The balaclava evidence and eyewitness testimony
- (8:00) Why the drawing matters
- (15:00) Flashbacks to Lori Vallow and amazon evidence
- (17:00) Casey Anthony’s perjury and misleading evidence
- (24:00) Why the state can’t introduce bad character
- (27:00) Traffic tickets leading to arrests
- (29:00) “ You can't hide your own eyebrows. You can't hide your own DNA. You can't hide your own height. Dylan Mortenson saw him within feet. Those eyebrows, she'll never forget 'em, and the biggest mistake he made was not leaving his DNA on that sheath, was not using his own card, was not using his own debit card, but leaving that witness alive.”
- (29:30) Witness strategy, mistakes, and what comes next
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the crime round up, y'all. I'm gonna get
right to it. Nancy Grace, come on in here, honey.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Happy birthday. Till you did you think I was not
gonna say anything.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I love the singing more than say any You know
it's all about you, as it should be, ma'am. I
am just your praw.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Tell me what you did on your birthday?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well, you know we're still celebrating. I get the whole month.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
What are y'all doing?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Well? We have had dinners, We've had trips. I have
one more trip.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
What trip what? Well?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I don't know if I can't tell on hair, but
walk I did a little uh look, a little overnight thing.
And then the kids have a surprise adventure this weekend.
I don't know the destination they've picked it.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Okay, this is so interesting because I never I have
a birthday. I don't want anything now I don't want
there's no I don't care about clothes. I certainly do
not care about jewelry. I drive a beat up minivan.
Don't care. But I always asked for a quote an experience.
Two years ago we went what do you say? It's
(01:19):
not We typically camp at a tent, a RV. What
are the a yurt? We went? We went in a
yurt and I had a great time. But that's what
I like to do. I like to go hiking or
go camping or something like that. So I'm with you.
I don't need another sweater or a ring or ear
(01:44):
rings I'm not gonna wear. I just know I want
to be with the twins, and I guess David, and
that's what I like for my birthday me too.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I just want more time of them. That's it. Same, Okay,
next Cober Coburger.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
The ballaclava, or as some people like to say, the bacleavah.
I've been waiting for somebody to say bahklablah and they did.
It made me really happy. And I said, well, okay,
regarding that bahklava, do do you think it a walnuts
or pistachios on it? And they're like, what, it's okay,
it's a balaclava, and idiot Coburger ordered one. F y.
(02:23):
I all, you criminal mastermids, don't order your crime doings
on Amazon or leave a credit card trail you'd think
right anyway, So online we do a whole program on
the mounting evidence, including the witness. And this is the timing.
(02:44):
I didn't really get to go into it in depth
on air the other night chery when you were with me,
because we have, you know, one hour, and if you
take out breaks, that leaves just for like forty five
forty eight minutes, and there's so much to cover, so
I can't covered in depth. But if I were trying
the case, I would take the balla clava and you
(03:05):
a whole poster, a whole discussion of what it proves.
You know, very often eyewitnesses are attacked, which of course
everyone has a right to cross examine a witness. In fact,
eyewitness across exams are so predictable they are even governed
(03:26):
by black and white letter of the law. What do
I mean by that, Well, let's just say you think
it would just be aough questioning, but it is so predictable,
so sop that the law lays out in the criminal Code,
the law of how to go about impeaching or testing
(03:49):
an eyewitness. What was your vantage point? Did you have
a clear shot a view of what you're describing? What
is your vision? Do your glasses were you wearing them
that night? What were the light and conditions were you
distracted in any way. There's a whole line of questioning
(04:10):
that I now know my heart from having done it
so many times. But one thing about the eyewitness, the
survivor that lived in the eleven twenty two king wrote
address where four people were murdered in their beds, two
of them survived. She gave that description of the perp
(04:33):
wearing a balla clava immediately after the incident. Her eyewitness's
account was fresh. It had not been diluted, It had
not been corrupted by any outside influence. She hadn't seen
anything on TV. No one had spoken to her, and
(04:54):
she drew the balla clava, the same balla claw, There
many types, the same bula claw, the same color, the
same everything that Coburger purchased. That is very strong eyewitness testimony.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Oh that's so solid.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Nothing was distracting her. The only thing they could do
with that if they want to attack, which of course
they will, is that it was dark. It was dark
when she saw it, but she was very close to him,
I would say, within fifteen feet of him. It was
a miraculated to kill her. So and I may find
out more about the lighting conditions. I mean, was he
(05:32):
standing in a window where there was outside light pouring in.
There were security lights in that parking lot, as I recall. Anyway,
there's a whole lot of factors. I don't know yet
where he was standing. Was there a night light on?
Was there a light on in the whole way? I
don't know any of that, but we'll find out, of course,
when that eyewitness testimony is attacked. But leading up online
(05:56):
and others, and it was brought up, and it's a
burdening point. A lot of people have bollaclavas. True, fine,
I don't but fine, fine, granted, But who has the
ballaklama exactly like that? Guys? Is like a ski mask
kind of you know, where your nose and your mouth
are covered up and put it over your heads that
(06:19):
the evil people always wear it in movies. That is
what I'm talking about. But add that, Sheryl, add that too.
Who has the ballaclaw just like that one? And also
has the Dickies uniform outfit and also drops of white
(06:40):
a launcher spotted at the crime scene.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I mean it goes on and on and also has
the same exact k burn knife and the same exact
sheath and then goes looking at needing a replace threat
knife and.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Sheet after the murders. I mean, this guy and wrote
a twelve page essay on how to process a crime scene.
You know, you know, let's reverse engineering that how to
commit a crime without the evidence be found a processed. So,
(07:15):
I mean it just is so. And who has bushy eyebrows?
That all adds up and the ball of Clova is
just one part of this equation, this very complicated equation.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Well, there's a couple of things law enforcement, and I
want rookies to listen to what I'm telling you. When
Dylan gave the testimony, she's giving you the description, they
went one step further and send can you draw it?
And she did so there's no question they did not
feed that to her. They didn't show her a bunch
(07:49):
of masks. She drew what she saw. Take that next step.
Don't just take the verbal testimony for drawing that is
a money tree. I'm just giving the advice verbally out loud,
so that they go that extra step, because that, to me,
would be the poster that you would put up at trial.
(08:10):
This is what she drew still in shop exactly, and
that led them to Dix because if it weren't for that,
maybe they wouldn't have gone to the sporting goods stores
around because they couldn't find that on Amazon, but they
found where he purchased it at Dick's Sporting Goods.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
What I'm trying to figure out is what is the
most vital piece of evidence because I like to start
with a bang. I don't start with the weakest evidence
and build up. I start with a bang, and then
I like to finish with a bang. That's important when
you try a case, you start with something very powerful
and you end with something very powerful. Why because this
(08:53):
last thing the jury's going to have on their mind
before they go out to deliver it, other than your
closing statements. And that is why there's the quirk in
Georgia law and in many jurisdictions, and that quirk is
that the state has the burden. Of course, the defense
has nothing to prove, right, So the state has the
(09:17):
first opening statement and the state can have the final
closing argument. Now, the state can split that up and
do a first closing argument. Then the defense goes and
then the state has a final closing argument like a sandwich.
Under Georgia law, if the defendant hoo's up nothing but
(09:40):
the defendant's own testimony or nothing at all. The state
loses the final closing argument and the defense gets it,
and it's like one of those weird board game rules
that are letting one person knows and they whip it
out the end and be you right. I remember that
(10:01):
happened to me, well the first time that happened to me,
and I did a backflip, and then I found a
way around at Cheryl. And the way around it is this.
If the defense even brings in, say a document, and
one of my witnesses had been crossed a cross examination
(10:25):
with a document, I think it was the witness's conviction
on something, but they had to bring in I wouldn't
let the defense attorney show them the document. I mean
show it to the jury. You could show it to
the witness, but not to the jury unless it's been
admitted into evidence. So they wanted to show the jury
(10:48):
that my witness's indictment they're guilty plea. I'm like, I
after introduced that into evidence before you show it to
the jury. So they introduced it into evidence, not realizing
that that would make them lose their final closing argument.
He he now point point. You have to finish strong
(11:10):
because just what if you lose the final closing argument
or what if things go sideways in closings. You gotta
finish it strong so the jury will have that in
their minds, your best evidence, right, and you got to
start strong because you don't want them to go home
their very first night of evidence and go, oh that
(11:33):
was awful. Whye my ear, there's no case. You gotta
hit them hard at the gate case Cheryl. So that said,
back to the balla club. Okay, I digressed.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
What would you start with the DNA?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Oh God, if there's so many different ways to go,
I would bring that up first in my opening statement,
But I don't think that I would start there because
DNA will get very confusing and will be subjected to
great cross examination attack as DNA always is. It's not
peculiar to this DNA, although you know, this kind of
(12:08):
thing that would keep me up at night is trying
to strategize how to stack my witnesses, although after the
first day they probably would The defense probably wouldn't even
get to cross examination of the DNA, so the jury
would go home thinking what one in eight Octilian likelihood
it's not him, it's totally to him. So that might
(12:31):
I'd have to time it out to figure out would
they make it to cross If they wouldn't make it
to cross exam, I might start with the DNA. What
I'd probably start with is a nine on one call
and the cops going to the scene start chronologically. Then
I would move probably. I don't want it to be
all theory. I might move might move from there to
(12:56):
the victim's family members. I don't want these four victims
to just be a name on an indictment. I want
the jury to know who they were. But I probably
go chronologically. Now here's a problem with chronologic when we
bring in the two eye witnesses, well, the two witnesses,
(13:19):
the survivors, They're going to be subjected to intense cross examination.
But that's gonna happen one way or the other. I'm
just saying, what am I bringing on first? What's gonna
get me through the first day of testimony to make
the biggest impact on a jury, And you really have
to think long and hard. You got to think about
what officer first arrived. You have to play of course,
(13:42):
the nine one calls, and they are legal hurdles to
get in a nine to one one call. Say, you
better make sure you know how to do it so
you're not stopped with objection after objection. You have to
go look at the law book to figure it out
for Beat's sake. No, it's got to be smooth and seamless.
What I'm saying is, don't let your projector break down
in front of the jury. Have yourself together. You got
(14:06):
one shot, don't screw it up, for Pete's sake.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
And you got twelve people sitting over they're waiting for it. Yes,
there was so many days and nights you and I
sat in your office and you would lay out in
the playbook. And when I think of this case, I
remember you and I were at a function.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I all is get nervous when you start a sentence.
I remember when you and us.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And we were almost bum rushed by these folks saying,
don't y'all think he's a criminal mastermind, don't you think
he's murdered you know, hundreds of times before? And I
remember just laughing, go with Look, he made so many
mistakes that if he had murdered before, he would have
been caught before. I mean, we had an eight year
(14:54):
old drug dealer in Atlanta that knew not to use
his own car. You don't use your own debit cards,
you don't use your own Amazon account. You certainly don't
buy replacement when you realize, oh lord, the police might
show up and need to produce this k bar with
the sheets. I better get another one, miffleball.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Oh you know what we were talking about on crime stories.
He gave me a scary flashback to call ma Laury Value.
Oh my stars, is okay. I'm not laughing at the crime.
I'm laughing because the crime is so setting it's hard
for me to think about it. Pull Montmaury Valo was
(15:36):
part of murdering her son JJ and her daughter Tyley
and others and others including Timmy daybll. So she meets
the prophet and even though I'm all by myself, am
using quivities in there, the prophet, Chad day Belt is
(15:56):
one big wacky doodle. He's married to Timmy, and of
course they fall in love and start getting on at
a local motel or where wherever anyway, So to put
a good face on it, they must get married, of course.
But oops, there's the wife, and there's a duty to
her children. So JJ had some learning issues and that
(16:20):
was I guess too much of a burden for her.
So he had to go. Tylie was starting to talk back.
She's sixteen. She had to go because it was impinging
on her sex affair with quote the prophet quote anyway,
planning her wedding before Tammy day Bell, the wife is dead,
(16:42):
she goes on her dead husband's credit card and orders
her wedding dress and her wedding ring and the groom
the profit quote E quote the prophet groom's outfit for
a beach b E A C H and where's it?
And it's photographed, and the same things she ordered on
(17:04):
Amazon before Timmy day Bell was dead, who then dies
in her sleep. Idiot idiots, you're so happy.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I'm so happy. We thought what I talked about. I
thought about Casey Anthony's mom. Remember when she tried to
say I was looking up garden and supplies. Well, there's
no way they're going to be able to call Coburgers,
sister or mama and say, hey, you know y'all share
an Amazon accaount? Did you buy a K bar?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I know, hey, you know what. I always go easy
on George and Cindy, And I'll tell you why. A
lot of people find a lot of things about them
to criticize. But you know what, if your whole life
was exposed, the worst thing you ever did or said
was made public, I don't even want to think about that.
They were photographed the video at the worst possible moment
(17:55):
in their life. I remember there was a video of
George coming out on the front yard yelling at the media,
eye and angry or get off my yard. Did you
blame him at that point?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
This at the end of their rope. Kelly was like
their own child and was missing and taught mom their
daughter was under suspicion, and there was just a constant
barrage of and I really I don't even show that
(18:27):
clip ever because it's so unfair. It's such a raw,
horrible time in their lives for that to be out there.
But a lot of people attack them. I like them.
I like them just as they are. They were taking
care of Kelly, their granddaughter, paying for everything, giving her
(18:50):
all her love, all her inovation. They were the ones
trying to find her.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
But yeah, I do think and I've said it before,
and no matter how much I like them. I do
believe Cindy committed persury on the stand trying to take
the fall for her daughter when she said those damning
computer searches were not how to make homemade chloroform, which
(19:16):
top Mom searched. It was her looking for chlorophyll regarding
bamboo growing up in their backyard, which doesn't even make
any sense, but whatever, and that it was spelled correct,
from chloroform to chlorophyll. I typed it into the computer
several times and nothing spell takes me right.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. His family's not going
to be able to save him either. Those searches, and
there's more searches we don't know about. And that timeline
it got filled in a little bit better here with
the Dick Sporting goods and now the secondary purchase of
the you know, the new you know phil In knife,
(19:54):
because you know, he knows he can't produce it. He
knows he can't produce the mask, so he I'm sure
freaked out thinking, hey, this was not part of the plan.
I made a huge mistake, which again not a mastermind.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, I agree, criminal master mom. And another part of it,
and I was speaking to you. I guess it is
doctor Bethony Marshall about this. It's hard to nail her
down because somehow she always years off in the set
up master system. I don't know how she does it,
but she does. He does. I love her so much.
She's always perfect.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, always perfect?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Ye?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Now okay, where were we? Ryl, I'm sorry. I was
looking at a post about Lucy. I posted a picture
of her when she was an angel. She played an
angel in the church Christmas program when she's a little girl.
And then the other day it just broke my heart.
I drove her to an interview for an internship and
(20:55):
she walked off, and she hates when I take her picture,
but I had the camera poised of I said, Lucy,
if she turned around, I took a picture of her,
and of course posted it, much to her chagrin. Someone
actually said, if she wring that skirt to an interview,
if I could just go through the screen and grab
that person, buy the throat anyway, I can't, but that said, I.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Got a buddy in here. I saw that picture. She
just turned kind of over her shoulder. That was a
beautiful picture. And of those children of yours, Oh my gosh,
they have just exceeded anything. I'm sure you ever even
prayed for beyond anything. I just wanted them to be alive,
because you know, Lucy almost died. Oh yeah, and she
(21:41):
weighed two pounds when she was born, two pounds, and
I was so messed up. I couldn't even lift my
head up off the bed.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
And now you remember. And I would just pray at
night for Lucy to live and for me to live
so I could make her live. Of course, John was
born at almost six pounds. He was just fat and happy.
He was just oh, he was just perfect. But yeah,
(22:10):
and I look at his picture now. I sat in
that parking lot and I was afraid that people interviewing
her might look out the wind and see me cry.
So I did hold it together. Yes, Oh my goodness,
you're one to talk with. Oh your children are so attractive.
They're so pretty, both of them.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
That's DNA baby.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Okay, back to Coburger. I could talk about the children forever. Okay,
back to Coburg. Where were we?
Speaker 1 (22:41):
I have a question for you as a prosecutor.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Ready.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
I know this is something that I think is huge,
But I know a lot of people don't They just
dismiss it. But I always think that it is wicked
good when they defendant has zero character witnesses. Not one
person is going to come up and say, hey, I
don't believe there's any way this person could have done this.
They're a good person, they're you know, devoted, they're devout
(23:07):
there whatever he's got nobody.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
You know, not one person's coming forward to go he
would never do this. And you know what struck me?
Do you recall just recently and we covered the Sadiksha
case where this beautiful young university pit student went missing
in the dr and the guy, the high school wrestler
that she was with on the beach came under suspicion.
(23:35):
All these people sort of flooding us with he would
never do this, he would never He's a boy scout.
I'm like a boy scout. And I'm not saying boy
scouts don't commit crimes, but I'm like, that really hit me.
All these people, neighbors, relatives, people that have worked with
a scout troop all saying he would never do this,
(24:00):
and you're bringing up the exact polar opposite, And you're right,
of course, the saint can't comment on that at trail.
But that said, it's still true. Nobody's coming forward to
saying he would never They're all going, yep, I told
him he was crazy. All of you was a crazy loader.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Nobody has noticed it. You're the first person to notice that.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, you know, you think when you're doing a master's
and you spend all this intimate time with professors and
other students, and then in the PhD program where you're
not just you know, in with your mentor, but now
you're also at TA you've got students. He doesn't have
one person saying he's the greatest person. He was somebody
(24:48):
that I looked to. He was somebody that mentored me. Zero.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
So what do you think how can that be brought in?
I don't think there's a constitutional way to bring it in.
It's much of a comment on defendance bad character. Yeah,
and that would be reversible as tempting as it is
not worth to get a case reversed on something so small.
(25:13):
I don't know if it would rise to a reversible error,
but if you add it into another small error and
another small error, it could add up, especially in a
death penalty case.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And maybe not to bring it in, but maybe some way,
Well there is one way.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
There is one way. If the defense brings in good reputation,
then the state is allowed. That opens the door to bad.
Well there you go. Yeah, you can't bring it up
as a state, but if they bring up the antithesis,
you can then follow up with a rage one day
a response.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Well, you know you and I always patterns, patterns, patterns, patterns.
You know what did he do on a daily basis?
Where did he go?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well, he's so right, Cheryl, go ahead, I want to
hear your analysis.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Well, here's the thing about him. I think he spent
a hund a time alone. And the reason he spent
time alone is because he was stalking. He was a
peeping tom. The one traffic ticket that he got in
August is the one that has stuck with me because
it was for not wearing a seat belt and it
(26:22):
was like eleven fortieth night. And I'm a person like
you know, you've done his ton of stuff with the
kids here recently, where they're dropping off blankets and they're
doing different things. When you're in and out of the car,
you don't re engage the seatbelt. I believe that he
was stalking that night. He was a peeping tom that
(26:42):
night and he was in and out of his car,
and that's why he just did not re engage the seatbelt.
And when you've got maybe even a car alerting you that, hey,
the seat belt, you know is be been. I think
he was so just in his whole head fantasizing about
what he just want, you know, watched what he was doing.
(27:04):
That's when they make those mistakes. And we know Ted Bundy,
the son of Sam. You know, they all got traffic tickets.
It's not unusual because they're focused about something in their
mind bigger than driving a car.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, that's a really good point, especially just thinking back
on all the cases for parking tickets or traffic infractions
have resulted in finding a very serious felon, even a
killer like McVeigh. That's a really good one.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Empathy McVeigh one hundred percent. Burklewitz, they all have traffic
tickets because think about what you're concentrating on, you know,
and for them, I mean at stop sign, a traffic light,
that's ridiculous. They're not focused on that at all.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
So where do you think it's going to end with
a conviction? Do you think it's really going forward this
summer because they're laying the foundation not to go forward,
whining about all that this is double edged where they've won. Oh,
the state's given us too much evidence. But if the
state doesn't hand over all those thousands of pages of
documents that go, hey, you hid something.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Listen, it's that chess game. This is I mean, I
call it a stunt. Either you didn't give us everything,
or now you're giving us too much. They in the
beginning kept saying, well, he's got to be able to
wear a suit, and he was only out looking at stars. Well,
now that the drawing has come out about the mask
(28:34):
and this has come out about Dick's sporting guns, I
think people are like, come on now. I mean, y'all
been throwing everything y'all could against the wall. Ain't nothing
sticking none of it. Nobody's buying it. His own family
has not come forward and said this was a mistake.
You don't know what you're talking about. I think a
(28:55):
lot of people in his life just like you said, like,
we knew it was crazy, but you came hide your
own car. You can't hide your own eyebrows, you can't
hide your own DNA. You can't hide your own height.
Dylan Mortenson saw him within feet. Those eyebrows, She'll never
forget them. And the biggest mistake he made was not
leaving his DNA on that sheaf, was not using his
(29:18):
own car, was not using his own debit card, but
leaving that witness alive.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Can we go back to who were going to put
up first? For me?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
The first witness would be the young man that came
over and found them.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
So you would not start with a number one call No.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I would work backwards. I would start with him what
he saw, because he's the one that turned and said
call now one one. On the now one one call,
the female roommate is saying, my roommate can't wake up.
She's not waking up. He saw, he saw the blood,
he knew, and he was trying to protect them from that.
(29:57):
I would start with him so that when they heard
the no when one call, they would know this is
even worse than this poor child knows.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
That is a really good point, Cheryl. I was already
to disagree with you, but I like that idea. I
still was start with the other one. But that's it.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Well, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Maybe you're right, Hm, I gotta think this too. As
if we're gonna be able to call the first witnesses,
stay's probably already got it all laid out in their minds. Okay, Cheryl.
As much as I would like to continue hypothesizing with
you about what we would do who would be our
first witness if we were prosecuting the case, I have
to go to work.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I appreciate you happy birthday.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I'm sure that the incriminating photos will be coming in
were coming on line.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Soon from your phone? All right? Love you, hunting by
Welcome to the crime round up, y'all. I'm gonna get
right to it. Nancy Grace, come on in here, honey.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Happy birthday. Till you did you think I was not
gonna say anything.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I love the singing more than say any You know
it's all about you, as it should be, ma'am. I
am just your praw.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Tell me what you did on your birthday?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well, you know we're still celebrating. I get the whole month.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
What are y'all doing?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Well? We have had dinners, We've had trips. I have
one more trip.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
What trip what? Well?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I don't know if I can't tell on hair, but
walk I did a little uh look, a little overnight thing.
And then the kids have a surprise adventure this weekend.
I don't know the destination they've picked it.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Okay, this is so interesting because I never I have
a birthday. I don't want anything now I don't want
there's no I don't care about clothes. I certainly do
not care about jewelry. I drive a beat up minivan.
Don't care. But I always asked for a quote an experience.
Two years ago we went what do you say? It's
(01:19):
not We typically camp at a tent, a RV. What
are the a yurt? We went? We went in a
yurt and I had a great time. But that's what
I like to do. I like to go hiking or
go camping or something like that. So I'm with you.
I don't need another sweater or a ring or ear
(01:44):
rings I'm not gonna wear. I just know I want
to be with the twins, and I guess David, and
that's what I like for my birthday me too.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I just want more time of them. That's it. Same, Okay,
next Cober Coburger.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
The ballaclava, or as some people like to say, the bacleavah.
I've been waiting for somebody to say bahklablah and they did.
It made me really happy. And I said, well, okay,
regarding that bahklava, do do you think it a walnuts
or pistachios on it? And they're like, what, it's okay,
it's a balaclava, and idiot Coburger ordered one. F y.
(02:23):
I all, you criminal mastermids, don't order your crime doings
on Amazon or leave a credit card trail you'd think
right anyway, So online we do a whole program on
the mounting evidence, including the witness. And this is the timing.
(02:44):
I didn't really get to go into it in depth
on air the other night chery when you were with me,
because we have, you know, one hour, and if you
take out breaks, that leaves just for like forty five
forty eight minutes, and there's so much to cover, so
I can't covered in depth. But if I were trying
the case, I would take the balla clava and you
(03:05):
a whole poster, a whole discussion of what it proves.
You know, very often eyewitnesses are attacked, which of course
everyone has a right to cross examine a witness. In fact,
eyewitness across exams are so predictable they are even governed
(03:26):
by black and white letter of the law. What do
I mean by that, Well, let's just say you think
it would just be aough questioning, but it is so predictable,
so sop that the law lays out in the criminal Code,
the law of how to go about impeaching or testing
(03:49):
an eyewitness. What was your vantage point? Did you have
a clear shot a view of what you're describing? What
is your vision? Do your glasses were you wearing them
that night? What were the light and conditions were you
distracted in any way. There's a whole line of questioning
(04:10):
that I now know my heart from having done it
so many times. But one thing about the eyewitness, the
survivor that lived in the eleven twenty two king wrote
address where four people were murdered in their beds, two
of them survived. She gave that description of the perp
(04:33):
wearing a balla clava immediately after the incident. Her eyewitness's
account was fresh. It had not been diluted, It had
not been corrupted by any outside influence. She hadn't seen
anything on TV. No one had spoken to her, and
(04:54):
she drew the balla clava, the same balla claw, There
many types, the same bula claw, the same color, the
same everything that Coburger purchased. That is very strong eyewitness testimony.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Oh that's so solid.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Nothing was distracting her. The only thing they could do
with that if they want to attack, which of course
they will, is that it was dark. It was dark
when she saw it, but she was very close to him,
I would say, within fifteen feet of him. It was
a miraculated to kill her. So and I may find
out more about the lighting conditions. I mean, was he
(05:32):
standing in a window where there was outside light pouring in.
There were security lights in that parking lot, as I recall. Anyway,
there's a whole lot of factors. I don't know yet
where he was standing. Was there a night light on?
Was there a light on in the whole way? I
don't know any of that, but we'll find out, of course,
when that eyewitness testimony is attacked. But leading up online
(05:56):
and others, and it was brought up, and it's a
burdening point. A lot of people have bollaclavas. True, fine,
I don't but fine, fine, granted, But who has the
ballaklama exactly like that? Guys? Is like a ski mask
kind of you know, where your nose and your mouth
are covered up and put it over your heads that
(06:19):
the evil people always wear it in movies. That is
what I'm talking about. But add that, Sheryl, add that too.
Who has the ballaclaw just like that one? And also
has the Dickies uniform outfit and also drops of white
(06:40):
a launcher spotted at the crime scene.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I mean it goes on and on and also has
the same exact k burn knife and the same exact
sheath and then goes looking at needing a replace threat
knife and.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Sheet after the murders. I mean, this guy and wrote
a twelve page essay on how to process a crime scene.
You know, you know, let's reverse engineering that how to
commit a crime without the evidence be found a processed. So,
(07:15):
I mean it just is so. And who has bushy eyebrows?
That all adds up and the ball of Clova is
just one part of this equation, this very complicated equation.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Well, there's a couple of things law enforcement, and I
want rookies to listen to what I'm telling you. When
Dylan gave the testimony, she's giving you the description, they
went one step further and send can you draw it?
And she did so there's no question they did not
feed that to her. They didn't show her a bunch
(07:49):
of masks. She drew what she saw. Take that next step.
Don't just take the verbal testimony for drawing that is
a money tree. I'm just giving the advice verbally out loud,
so that they go that extra step, because that, to me,
would be the poster that you would put up at trial.
(08:10):
This is what she drew still in shop exactly, and
that led them to Dix because if it weren't for that,
maybe they wouldn't have gone to the sporting goods stores
around because they couldn't find that on Amazon, but they
found where he purchased it at Dick's Sporting Goods.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
What I'm trying to figure out is what is the
most vital piece of evidence because I like to start
with a bang. I don't start with the weakest evidence
and build up. I start with a bang, and then
I like to finish with a bang. That's important when
you try a case, you start with something very powerful
and you end with something very powerful. Why because this
(08:53):
last thing the jury's going to have on their mind
before they go out to deliver it, other than your
closing statements. And that is why there's the quirk in
Georgia law and in many jurisdictions, and that quirk is
that the state has the burden. Of course, the defense
has nothing to prove, right, So the state has the
(09:17):
first opening statement and the state can have the final
closing argument. Now, the state can split that up and
do a first closing argument. Then the defense goes and
then the state has a final closing argument like a sandwich.
Under Georgia law, if the defendant hoo's up nothing but
(09:40):
the defendant's own testimony or nothing at all. The state
loses the final closing argument and the defense gets it,
and it's like one of those weird board game rules
that are letting one person knows and they whip it
out the end and be you right. I remember that
(10:01):
happened to me, well the first time that happened to me,
and I did a backflip, and then I found a
way around at Cheryl. And the way around it is this.
If the defense even brings in, say a document, and
one of my witnesses had been crossed a cross examination
(10:25):
with a document, I think it was the witness's conviction
on something, but they had to bring in I wouldn't
let the defense attorney show them the document. I mean
show it to the jury. You could show it to
the witness, but not to the jury unless it's been
admitted into evidence. So they wanted to show the jury
(10:48):
that my witness's indictment they're guilty plea. I'm like, I
after introduced that into evidence before you show it to
the jury. So they introduced it into evidence, not realizing
that that would make them lose their final closing argument.
He he now point point. You have to finish strong
(11:10):
because just what if you lose the final closing argument
or what if things go sideways in closings. You gotta
finish it strong so the jury will have that in
their minds, your best evidence, right, and you got to
start strong because you don't want them to go home
their very first night of evidence and go, oh that
(11:33):
was awful. Whye my ear, there's no case. You gotta
hit them hard at the gate case Cheryl. So that said,
back to the balla club. Okay, I digressed.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
What would you start with the DNA?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Oh God, if there's so many different ways to go,
I would bring that up first in my opening statement,
But I don't think that I would start there because
DNA will get very confusing and will be subjected to
great cross examination attack as DNA always is. It's not
peculiar to this DNA, although you know, this kind of
(12:08):
thing that would keep me up at night is trying
to strategize how to stack my witnesses, although after the
first day they probably would The defense probably wouldn't even
get to cross examination of the DNA, so the jury
would go home thinking what one in eight Octilian likelihood
it's not him, it's totally to him. So that might
(12:31):
I'd have to time it out to figure out would
they make it to cross If they wouldn't make it
to cross exam, I might start with the DNA. What
I'd probably start with is a nine on one call
and the cops going to the scene start chronologically. Then
I would move probably. I don't want it to be
all theory. I might move might move from there to
(12:56):
the victim's family members. I don't want these four victims
to just be a name on an indictment. I want
the jury to know who they were. But I probably
go chronologically. Now here's a problem with chronologic when we
bring in the two eye witnesses, well, the two witnesses,
(13:19):
the survivors, They're going to be subjected to intense cross examination.
But that's gonna happen one way or the other. I'm
just saying, what am I bringing on first? What's gonna
get me through the first day of testimony to make
the biggest impact on a jury, And you really have
to think long and hard. You got to think about
what officer first arrived. You have to play of course,
(13:42):
the nine one calls, and they are legal hurdles to
get in a nine to one one call. Say, you
better make sure you know how to do it so
you're not stopped with objection after objection. You have to
go look at the law book to figure it out
for Beat's sake. No, it's got to be smooth and seamless.
What I'm saying is, don't let your projector break down
in front of the jury. Have yourself together. You got
(14:06):
one shot, don't screw it up, for Pete's sake.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
And you got twelve people sitting over they're waiting for it. Yes,
there was so many days and nights you and I
sat in your office and you would lay out in
the playbook. And when I think of this case, I
remember you and I were at a function.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I all is get nervous when you start a sentence.
I remember when you and us.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And we were almost bum rushed by these folks saying,
don't y'all think he's a criminal mastermind, don't you think
he's murdered you know, hundreds of times before? And I
remember just laughing, go with Look, he made so many
mistakes that if he had murdered before, he would have
been caught before. I mean, we had an eight year
(14:54):
old drug dealer in Atlanta that knew not to use
his own car. You don't use your own debit cards,
you don't use your own Amazon account. You certainly don't
buy replacement when you realize, oh lord, the police might
show up and need to produce this k bar with
the sheets. I better get another one, miffleball.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Oh you know what we were talking about on crime stories.
He gave me a scary flashback to call ma Laury Value.
Oh my stars, is okay. I'm not laughing at the crime.
I'm laughing because the crime is so setting it's hard
for me to think about it. Pull Montmaury Valo was
(15:36):
part of murdering her son JJ and her daughter Tyley
and others and others including Timmy daybll. So she meets
the prophet and even though I'm all by myself, am
using quivities in there, the prophet, Chad day Belt is
(15:56):
one big wacky doodle. He's married to Timmy, and of
course they fall in love and start getting on at
a local motel or where wherever anyway, So to put
a good face on it, they must get married, of course.
But oops, there's the wife, and there's a duty to
her children. So JJ had some learning issues and that
(16:20):
was I guess too much of a burden for her.
So he had to go. Tylie was starting to talk back.
She's sixteen. She had to go because it was impinging
on her sex affair with quote the prophet quote anyway,
planning her wedding before Tammy day Bell, the wife is dead,
(16:42):
she goes on her dead husband's credit card and orders
her wedding dress and her wedding ring and the groom
the profit quote E quote the prophet groom's outfit for
a beach b E A C H and where's it?
And it's photographed, and the same things she ordered on
(17:04):
Amazon before Timmy day Bell was dead, who then dies
in her sleep. Idiot idiots, you're so happy.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I'm so happy. We thought what I talked about. I
thought about Casey Anthony's mom. Remember when she tried to
say I was looking up garden and supplies. Well, there's
no way they're going to be able to call Coburgers,
sister or mama and say, hey, you know y'all share
an Amazon accaount? Did you buy a K bar?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I know, hey, you know what. I always go easy
on George and Cindy, And I'll tell you why. A
lot of people find a lot of things about them
to criticize. But you know what, if your whole life
was exposed, the worst thing you ever did or said
was made public, I don't even want to think about that.
They were photographed the video at the worst possible moment
(17:55):
in their life. I remember there was a video of
George coming out on the front yard yelling at the media,
eye and angry or get off my yard. Did you
blame him at that point?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
This at the end of their rope. Kelly was like
their own child and was missing and taught mom their
daughter was under suspicion, and there was just a constant
barrage of and I really I don't even show that
(18:27):
clip ever because it's so unfair. It's such a raw,
horrible time in their lives for that to be out there.
But a lot of people attack them. I like them.
I like them just as they are. They were taking
care of Kelly, their granddaughter, paying for everything, giving her
(18:50):
all her love, all her inovation. They were the ones
trying to find her.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
But yeah, I do think and I've said it before,
and no matter how much I like them. I do
believe Cindy committed persury on the stand trying to take
the fall for her daughter when she said those damning
computer searches were not how to make homemade chloroform, which
(19:16):
top Mom searched. It was her looking for chlorophyll regarding
bamboo growing up in their backyard, which doesn't even make
any sense, but whatever, and that it was spelled correct,
from chloroform to chlorophyll. I typed it into the computer
several times and nothing spell takes me right.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. His family's not going
to be able to save him either. Those searches, and
there's more searches we don't know about. And that timeline
it got filled in a little bit better here with
the Dick Sporting goods and now the secondary purchase of
the you know, the new you know phil In knife,
(19:54):
because you know, he knows he can't produce it. He
knows he can't produce the mask, so he I'm sure
freaked out thinking, hey, this was not part of the plan.
I made a huge mistake, which again not a mastermind.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, I agree, criminal master mom. And another part of it,
and I was speaking to you. I guess it is
doctor Bethony Marshall about this. It's hard to nail her
down because somehow she always years off in the set
up master system. I don't know how she does it,
but she does. He does. I love her so much.
She's always perfect.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, always perfect?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Ye?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Now okay, where were we? Ryl, I'm sorry. I was
looking at a post about Lucy. I posted a picture
of her when she was an angel. She played an
angel in the church Christmas program when she's a little girl.
And then the other day it just broke my heart.
I drove her to an interview for an internship and
(20:55):
she walked off, and she hates when I take her picture,
but I had the camera poised of I said, Lucy,
if she turned around, I took a picture of her,
and of course posted it, much to her chagrin. Someone
actually said, if she wring that skirt to an interview,
if I could just go through the screen and grab
that person, buy the throat anyway, I can't, but that said, I.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Got a buddy in here. I saw that picture. She
just turned kind of over her shoulder. That was a
beautiful picture. And of those children of yours, Oh my gosh,
they have just exceeded anything. I'm sure you ever even
prayed for beyond anything. I just wanted them to be alive,
because you know, Lucy almost died. Oh yeah, and she
(21:41):
weighed two pounds when she was born, two pounds, and
I was so messed up. I couldn't even lift my
head up off the bed.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
And now you remember. And I would just pray at
night for Lucy to live and for me to live
so I could make her live. Of course, John was
born at almost six pounds. He was just fat and happy.
He was just oh, he was just perfect. But yeah,
(22:10):
and I look at his picture now. I sat in
that parking lot and I was afraid that people interviewing
her might look out the wind and see me cry.
So I did hold it together. Yes, Oh my goodness,
you're one to talk with. Oh your children are so attractive.
They're so pretty, both of them.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
That's DNA baby.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Okay, back to Coburger. I could talk about the children forever. Okay,
back to Coburg. Where were we?
Speaker 1 (22:41):
I have a question for you as a prosecutor.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Ready.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
I know this is something that I think is huge,
But I know a lot of people don't They just
dismiss it. But I always think that it is wicked
good when they defendant has zero character witnesses. Not one
person is going to come up and say, hey, I
don't believe there's any way this person could have done this.
They're a good person, they're you know, devoted, they're devout
(23:07):
there whatever he's got nobody.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
You know, not one person's coming forward to go he
would never do this. And you know what struck me?
Do you recall just recently and we covered the Sadiksha
case where this beautiful young university pit student went missing
in the dr and the guy, the high school wrestler
that she was with on the beach came under suspicion.
(23:35):
All these people sort of flooding us with he would
never do this, he would never He's a boy scout.
I'm like a boy scout. And I'm not saying boy
scouts don't commit crimes, but I'm like, that really hit me.
All these people, neighbors, relatives, people that have worked with
a scout troop all saying he would never do this,
(24:00):
and you're bringing up the exact polar opposite, And you're right,
of course, the saint can't comment on that at trail.
But that said, it's still true. Nobody's coming forward to
saying he would never They're all going, yep, I told
him he was crazy. All of you was a crazy loader.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Nobody has noticed it. You're the first person to notice that.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, you know, you think when you're doing a master's
and you spend all this intimate time with professors and
other students, and then in the PhD program where you're
not just you know, in with your mentor, but now
you're also at TA you've got students. He doesn't have
one person saying he's the greatest person. He was somebody
(24:48):
that I looked to. He was somebody that mentored me. Zero.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
So what do you think how can that be brought in?
I don't think there's a constitutional way to bring it in.
It's much of a comment on defendance bad character. Yeah,
and that would be reversible as tempting as it is
not worth to get a case reversed on something so small.
(25:13):
I don't know if it would rise to a reversible error,
but if you add it into another small error and
another small error, it could add up, especially in a
death penalty case.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And maybe not to bring it in, but maybe some way,
Well there is one way.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
There is one way. If the defense brings in good reputation,
then the state is allowed. That opens the door to bad.
Well there you go. Yeah, you can't bring it up
as a state, but if they bring up the antithesis,
you can then follow up with a rage one day
a response.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Well, you know you and I always patterns, patterns, patterns, patterns.
You know what did he do on a daily basis?
Where did he go?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well, he's so right, Cheryl, go ahead, I want to
hear your analysis.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Well, here's the thing about him. I think he spent
a hund a time alone. And the reason he spent
time alone is because he was stalking. He was a
peeping tom. The one traffic ticket that he got in
August is the one that has stuck with me because
it was for not wearing a seat belt and it
(26:22):
was like eleven fortieth night. And I'm a person like
you know, you've done his ton of stuff with the
kids here recently, where they're dropping off blankets and they're
doing different things. When you're in and out of the car,
you don't re engage the seatbelt. I believe that he
was stalking that night. He was a peeping tom that
(26:42):
night and he was in and out of his car,
and that's why he just did not re engage the seatbelt.
And when you've got maybe even a car alerting you that, hey,
the seat belt, you know is be been. I think
he was so just in his whole head fantasizing about
what he just want, you know, watched what he was doing.
(27:04):
That's when they make those mistakes. And we know Ted Bundy,
the son of Sam. You know, they all got traffic tickets.
It's not unusual because they're focused about something in their
mind bigger than driving a car.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, that's a really good point, especially just thinking back
on all the cases for parking tickets or traffic infractions
have resulted in finding a very serious felon, even a
killer like McVeigh. That's a really good one.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Empathy McVeigh one hundred percent. Burklewitz, they all have traffic
tickets because think about what you're concentrating on, you know,
and for them, I mean at stop sign, a traffic light,
that's ridiculous. They're not focused on that at all.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
So where do you think it's going to end with
a conviction? Do you think it's really going forward this
summer because they're laying the foundation not to go forward,
whining about all that this is double edged where they've won. Oh,
the state's given us too much evidence. But if the
state doesn't hand over all those thousands of pages of
documents that go, hey, you hid something.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Listen, it's that chess game. This is I mean, I
call it a stunt. Either you didn't give us everything,
or now you're giving us too much. They in the
beginning kept saying, well, he's got to be able to
wear a suit, and he was only out looking at stars. Well,
now that the drawing has come out about the mask
(28:34):
and this has come out about Dick's sporting guns, I
think people are like, come on now. I mean, y'all
been throwing everything y'all could against the wall. Ain't nothing
sticking none of it. Nobody's buying it. His own family
has not come forward and said this was a mistake.
You don't know what you're talking about. I think a
(28:55):
lot of people in his life just like you said, like,
we knew it was crazy, but you came hide your
own car. You can't hide your own eyebrows, you can't
hide your own DNA. You can't hide your own height.
Dylan Mortenson saw him within feet. Those eyebrows, She'll never
forget them. And the biggest mistake he made was not
leaving his DNA on that sheaf, was not using his
(29:18):
own car, was not using his own debit card, but
leaving that witness alive.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Can we go back to who were going to put
up first? For me?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
The first witness would be the young man that came
over and found them.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
So you would not start with a number one call No.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I would work backwards. I would start with him what
he saw, because he's the one that turned and said
call now one one. On the now one one call,
the female roommate is saying, my roommate can't wake up.
She's not waking up. He saw, he saw the blood,
he knew, and he was trying to protect them from that.
(29:57):
I would start with him so that when they heard
the no when one call, they would know this is
even worse than this poor child knows.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
That is a really good point, Cheryl. I was already
to disagree with you, but I like that idea. I
still was start with the other one. But that's it.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Well, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Maybe you're right, Hm, I gotta think this too. As
if we're gonna be able to call the first witnesses,
stay's probably already got it all laid out in their minds. Okay, Cheryl.
As much as I would like to continue hypothesizing with
you about what we would do who would be our
first witness if we were prosecuting the case, I have
to go to work.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I appreciate you happy birthday.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I'm sure that the incriminating photos will be coming in
were coming on line.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Soon from your phone? All right? Love you, hunting by
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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