March 7, 2025 • 29 mins
Today, Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum dive straight into a controversial topic by discussing Casey Anthony's a.k.a “tot mom” recent claim of being a victim's advocate.
Nancy Grace passionately recounts the details of three-year-old Caylee Anthony's murder and criticizes Casey Anthony’s post-trial actions. Secondly, Nancy gives updates on the Kohberger case, addressing legal objections, DNA evidence, and defense strategies.
Nancy and Sheryl explain the implications of DNA found under Maddie Mogen’s fingernails and discuss the impact on the investigation.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:10) Sherly opens up CRU with news regarding the latest on Casey Anthony
- (3:00) Latest move on Casey Anthony - money grab
- (7:20) “It ain’t slander if it’s true.”
- (9:00) Bryan Kohberger DNA analysis
- (12:00) Understanding DNA degradation in criminal cases
- (22:00) Kohbergers defense to try and exclude evidence and avoid death penalty
- (25:00) Closing thoughts
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Crime Round Up. Well, look y'all, right out
of the gate. I'm just gonna put a bird under
Nancy Grace's saddle.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Good morning, honey.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I hope you don't go where I think you're going.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Oh I am, I am going straight there. I cannot wait.
I'm just going to float you a question. Nancy Casey
Anthony is a victim's advocate.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Go you know, Cheryl, with all the people in the
world that need our help, a light shine on their case,
unsolved homicides, missing people, especially children. You want to talk
about top mom, Okay, Brandon. Kelly Anthony had just turned three.
(00:56):
Do you remember Caroline when she was three? Yeah? I
went there, think about baby Caroline, your little sweetheart. Kelly
and I went there many times. I moved to Orlando
with the children for the trial. I went many, many
(01:20):
times to wear Kelly's body three years old, a little
bitty thing, just the sweetest, cutest, those big eyes looking
up was bagged in black plastic trash bags from the
Anthony home. No question, had thrown into a swampy area
(01:48):
about ten houses from the Anthony home. That area covered
in trash. It's very woody, and people throw things out
there as they go by, trash used tires lick her
bottles all full of dirt by now, and that was
(02:10):
where she laid. Now wait, see, this is what people
don't like to think about. This is what I have
to think about. What happened? Then? The skin slid off
her arms, All of her soft tissue began to rot.
(02:36):
Flies found their way in and began to lay eggs
that turned into maggots, and she decomposed minute by minute
in that Florida heat. She was found by accident by
(02:56):
mister Kronk, who then went under suspension himself for doing
the right thing. There is a wake of pain connected
to todd Mom that will never end. Why I know
(03:17):
its a crime victim, it never ends. Keith's murder affected
my life. I couldn't remarry, I couldn't think about it.
The thought of it would literally make me sick to
my stomach. Therefore I waited till I was much older
to have children, and Lucy nearly died because of it.
(03:37):
What do you think this is done to George and
Cindy nearly destroyed their marriage. Just to think about the
worst thing you have ever done, Think about it being
brought out on the witness stand. The worst thing. I
don't even want to know what it is because I
can't think you would ever do anything wrong. So just
(04:01):
think about it. That is what he endured. Their life
has been destroyed. And now and even Cindy goes on
the stand and I believe committed perjury to try and
save top Mom. Everybody's having a good old time talking
(04:25):
about Top Mom making money off idiots online. This is
what the case is really about. It's about Kelly, who
murdered Kelly. Prosecutors say tot Mom did. Now a jury
said otherwise, and they have gone on to say they
regretted it and were haunted by their decisions. But that's
a day late and a dollar sure. That moment has passed.
(04:49):
Now we are at another moment in time to make
a stand. Top Mom says she is a legal advocate.
Why she says she's been in the quote legal phils.
It's twenty eleven, that's when she was trying for murder.
That is her exposure to the legal system. She's left
off one man after the next since then. And now
(05:11):
I guess she's run out of money. I did notice
she had enough money to get her hair straightened that said,
moving forward, anybody that pays for that is you know what,
as Judge Bellevin Perry said, a sucker is born every day.
But I think part of it is like you cannot help,
(05:32):
no matter how much you say, You're not usually just
gonna speed on by. You do look at the car crash,
You look, all right, you glance. I think that's what
this is. But sadly this costs money, and that money
goes into her pocket. Go get a job, woman, or
better yet, go away. Haters are begging, go away.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That was beautiful, And I'm going to tell you something
you started and made me think of Caroline. Then you
move into that description you had me And I tell
people all the time when I used to sit in
court and watch you, you were the best I've ever seen.
You would take that jury, you would make them get connected.
(06:14):
They had no choice what you did. Just then, when
you made that description you will, you immediately said, but wait,
you knew now she's going to tell me more. I
don't want to know more, but she's gonna make me.
And you do it in such a way that people
feel like, now I'm responsible, I need to do something.
(06:35):
We are responsible.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
We were responsible for making a stand about what's right
and what's wrong now. She also issued a dire warning
she's watching out for oral slender and uh live on slender.
No one can ever say anything slanderous, but I can
(06:58):
say anger. A prosecutor charged her with Kelly's murder and
brought on a mountain of evidence to prove it. I
can say that.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
It ain't slammered if it's true.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well, the truth is a complete defense, that's for sure.
That is for sure, miss Thing. Now, can we talk
about something we can actually affect? Because there are gonna
be people wack of doodles. What man is attracted to
top Mom Casey anying? Because I tell you what, I
think I'd see Kegel extending right behind hers as bearing
at me. You know no, I mean, oh that's a
(07:35):
bucket of cold water. But you know what, whatever, go
don't care. I'd just be mad if you didn't. So
can we talk about something that we that's happening now,
that maybe somehow we can affect Coburger I near bringing
up top mon first, by the way, you little weirdo el.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
But I've had five four hundred and thirty seven people
text me going, please o't cry round up.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Get that out of the gate.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I want to hear Nancy well, baby, y'all got her,
and y'all heard some of the best right off the cuff.
So you know, here's the thing about Coburger now that
fascinates me. His attorney is saying, I don't want this
particular DNA to come in.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Oh I'm so happy because if they don't want it,
that means I do want it.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
A men, I don't even know what it is.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
I mean, as soon as the defenses stand up and say,
I'm said them like, I'm against it, what is it?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I want two of it?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I agree under the victims singer nail there's three different
DNA samples from three different people, and the defense doesn't
want that coming in. Explain to people why they wouldn't
that that would be one of those things. It seems
like they would say, Hey, that prooves there was a
bunch of people there that night, it's not Coburger.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Well, first of all, you're absolutely right if the defense
wants to suppressed, I want an end and frankly, there's
not a legal basis to keep it out. If it
was at the crime scene and part of the investigation,
it comes in. So the only way, the only objection
would be irrelevant and irrelevant of all the objections is
(09:24):
the weakest objection. And I'll tell you why. When a
case goes up on appeal, if the defense has not
made an objection at the time of the trial, they
have not quote perfected the record. So if I sit
there and let evidets pour in as the defense attorney
and I don't object, you can't then on appeal go, hey,
(09:46):
that Aviden shouldn't have come in. No, it doesn't work
like that. You have to perfect the record and you
have to object at the time. Even if you're overruled,
you must object or else you've not preserved the record.
So what I'm saying is on appeal, if the objection,
the only objection is irrelevant, that is not a typically
(10:10):
a ground for reversal. So the only objection I see here,
since it is part of the crime scene, there's no objections.
Let's pretend there's a pink hat sitting in the corner.
There's no reason to keep out the photo of the
pink hat. Is it relevant? No, but you there's no
grounds to keep it out right, see what I mean.
(10:32):
So there's DNA at the scene. What is your grounds
for keeping it out? It's part of the investigation. It's
under the fingernails we believe of Mattie Mogan that night,
Maddie and Kelley Gold's office, we think slept in the
same bin. And you're such a DNA expert yourself, Cheryl,
(10:54):
that you know, just even touching Kelly, or hugging or
Deny or putting her hair in a pilony tailer, anything
could have left DNA under Maddie's fingernail. It could have
been when she reached out and got something at a
food truck. It could have been anything at all that
she came in contact with, write anything. So there's really
(11:19):
no telling who the DNA belongs to. I am very curious.
I mean, it could be killing Goosavis's DNA, but I'm
very curious if it's just not enough DNA to get
a match. Is it degenerated? Is it from the nails word?
I mean, it could be anything, but I'm just wondering
(11:42):
if they sent, how they sent the DNA, if there's
enough of it to a specialty boutique DNA lab like
you know, authoring maybe and you and I have met,
Oh my goodness, She's not only beautiful, she's brilliant. The
there's a man and a woman that run it. They're married,
and that woman she is amazing. I'm gonna thank you.
(12:08):
We're naming just two second starts with.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
An Emson mother Christian Middleman.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
That's it. That's it. She just crackles with intelligence. I
guess listen to her all day long. Anyway. Their boutique
lab specialty is degraded DNA in small amounts of DNA.
What is degreeed DNA? Degraded DNA is when DNA has
been mixed with other DNA. Let's just say the DNA
(12:34):
is mixed, been in the mud, been in the water,
been mixed with other people's DNA, is compromised, is old.
It's just very small amount of it. It could be
any problem with the DNA. I'm just wondering if the
DNA has been sent to a boutique DNA lab, and
if not, they should, Yeah, said, will'll delay the trial
(12:57):
some more, but really it's in all to injury. We've
already been delayed for years, So I would try it.
If it hasn't already been done, absolutely try it. Maybe
a stab in the dark. Okay, that's not a good example.
It may be a long shot let me say that
at getting a result, but I would at least try it.
(13:18):
So you've got the DNA under Matty's fingernails. They don't
want an end because they believe that the defense, even
though it's inconclusive, that a jury will believe that Mattie
scratched somebody and just didn't get a good match and
just wasn't enough to get a match, and that it's coburger.
I'm guessing that's why they don't lay the implication of
(13:41):
DNA under Maddie's fingernails. The truth is we all have
DNA under our fingernails right now. I just cleaned about
three pounds of squash because my mom and the twinsle
with squash onions. You know what, when I touched that
grocery bag, when I I touched so many things that
came from the grocery store, there's no telling whose DNA
(14:04):
I have under my fingernails. And if it was explained
like that to the jury, it might be different. But
I don't know how Anne Taylor the defense is with
her openings and closings to a jury, you know, because
some lawyers just irritate the hay out of you. When
they start talking. It's just like turn off, like you
turn off the TV. You just tune now. So I
(14:26):
don't know how she is in front of a jury.
We'll see. Also in the last hours, the texts between
the roommates, they surviving roommates have emerged a show that
the roommates were terrified that night they knew something was
going on and one of the phones, one of their
(14:48):
phones was going dead and the other one was saying,
just run to my room really fast. I mean, we're
gonna learn a lot. Oh oh, sorry, I hate to backtrack.
This is why I had a a clear map as
to how I would argue to a jury, and I
would try not to deviate from it. So the evidence,
(15:08):
the arguments, we can get jumbled up together. But I
got a back track, hold on. I need a sympathy, okay.
I also believe that our new revelation that there is
DNA and Matty Mogan's fingernails indicates to me anyway that
there is going to be more DNA at the scene
than we have known about. Because everybody's been screaming, where's the.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Blood, where's the DNA, Where's that.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Love God and that because all we've heard about is
the DNA on the knife sheep touch DNA. This tells
me there's more DNA that we don't know about, which
you and I thought there would be at some point,
and there is. I think this is an indicator that
we're going to seem more.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I know you and I talked early early on that
it reminded me of doctor Jeffrey McDonald in that they're
gonna be able to tell you the movement of that killer.
They're gonna know who was stabbed first, who was stabbed second,
who was stabbed third, who was stabbed fourth. They're gonna
know that, and that's gonna come out. And I think
(16:16):
this also reminds me of the Ramsey case in that
Patsy when they said they could not exclude her from
being the person that wrote the ransom note.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
If they can't.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Exclude Coberger from one of the three samples, that defense
attorney knows good and well they know what that means.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Only question is where are you and I going to
stay here in the trial?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Ain't that the truth?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Kang? Do you think I'll really go this summer?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I do think I think this judge is it gonna.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Go right when I'm taking twins on the casion? Is
that what's happening here?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Though, you'll be able to go, Oh, lordy lord, believe it,
because I don't think that.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
They want to go to Idaho, brothers. Although you know
what I know. It's beautiful. You've seen that, boy, it's gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yes, it is one of the prettiest states. And I
wasn't ready for it. I didn't know that much about
Idaho before I went. It is gorgeous.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
It's really pretty. When I went the last time, it
was covered in snow and ice. I didn't get to
see a lot of it. But I have been there
before and it's really pretty in the summertime. Now, letting
me think. Okay, now back to what I'm learning. When
I learned every night text messages between the two survivors,
(17:37):
I always want to say that I think of Harry Potter,
the Boy who Lived. Wait, wait a minute, I bet
you didn't read Harry Potter right now? What do you
watch some reality show like He's gonna marry the one
guy and it's all rigged and somebody gets a rose
then they break up five minutes after they get their money.
I bet you watch that.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Whatever that is, I'll tell you one that.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Oh my love, oh lord, we what they just this unbelievable,
just fantastic.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Tell me the name naked and afraid.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I see now I wish I hadn't asked that question. Now,
that's the real number one in front of a jury,
never asked the question you don't know the answer to.
I'll tell you a lost story about naked and afraid.
So John David who went to a spend the night
when he was just a little boy, and I, of
course was completely against it because spend the nights to
me renderom elastation. So I'm like, oh, you know, in
(18:31):
my mind I didn't want him to go. I slept
with the phone by my ear, hoping he would call
me to come again. I'm sure enough. At midnight he did,
I'll be right over. I got out there and I'm like, son,
why don't you want to come home? And he went, Well,
they made us all sleep at the basement on the
cement floor. I got cold because I didn't have a
(18:53):
blanket or a pillow, and I'm like, oh, they'll definitely
charge these a holes and so, but sadly they got
went to the breschool with and I thought, okay, I'm
not gonna cause a big stink gee them a new
reary end. But I'm like, oh no, well come on
home and goes and I said, well, did you ask
(19:14):
for a pillow? Sweetheart? And I sent him with a
pillow and a blanket, and guess what he did. He
loaned it to another little boy that didn't have a
pillow or blanket, and so he had nothing. I said, well,
did you ask the mommy and daddy for a blanket? Cares?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Well?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I went upstairs and they were in bed watching TV
and there were naked people on there and I went, okay,
no more than that. And I said, oh, yes, I
know what that's all about. That's about. And I was
just talking on limit because I was not ready to
talk about porn, okay, And so he was like whatever
age he was, and I said, oh, yes, that's that's
(19:53):
the show about. I'm thinking who would be naked? I
went naked, Baby's the Free of the Dark. That's the
name of that. Your baby's afraid of the dark. And
he looked at me, said, mom, they were grown up.
So I'm like, no, they weren't. They go to sleep
and so now whenever anything pops up on the TV
that I won't don't want to sound like, look is naked,
(20:16):
baby's afraid of the dark. I'm so disappointed in you.
What did you say? It is naked?
Speaker 1 (20:25):
What?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Naked? And afraid?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Oh, dear lord, Okay, it's awesome. Lucy has been out
of school sick, and I let her stay out a
third day, which was totally wrong. So we she and
I can get in the bed under the curbs and
watch dexter text messages between the two surviving roommates. That
(20:49):
would be Dylan Mortenson and I'll just call him DM
and BF about four twenty two and four twenty four
of talking all the top of my head right now,
the two of them, Dylan Martin sending Bethany Funk were
sending nearly twenty text messages back and forth afraid somebody
(21:09):
is in the house and they are so afraid and
fuck you're saying just come to my room, run run
run down here? Can you amention that? And the one
other roommate is afraid to come out and run for it,
and I think you know, people have really attacked Dylan
(21:32):
and going, well, why did you open the door? I
wonder if she was opening the door to run the
funk's room, and when she did, she sees the bushy
eyebrows and the tall white male and oh my goodness.
In addition to these text messages, this just threw me
(21:57):
into a fit. The is arguing they don't want the
word murder to be allowed in the courtroom. And reminder,
this is a murder case with murder charge in the
murder indictment, and they don't want the word. They don't
want butshy eyebrows to come in. And of course everybody's
(22:20):
gonna look right at him when they say butchy eyebrows.
Of course he's going to be all manscaped by the
time he gets into the church up probably want to
have you any eyebrows at all. By then I'll be
plucked out. But they're crazy defense strategy. I mean, it's
just a papoury, it's a smorgas board, it's a crack
(22:42):
pot of everything bad in your kitchen. That's what the
defense is right now.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Well, they've also thrown in that he's autistic.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yes, after nearly thirty years, suddenly the defense has diagnosed
Rank Coberger is being autistic. And the reason is they
believe that could save him from the death penalty under
US Supreme Court case law. That is not going to
save him from the death penalty if it makes it
(23:12):
that far. He is a pH d student, he is
teaching criminality. He knew right from wrong, so that's not
going to work. But we see that they're trying anything
in everything, which I guess is their job. They're paid
to do it. I'm just glad that I had a
(23:34):
choice that I could luckily turn down cases that I
did not believe should be prosecuted, and prosecute cases that
I did believe should be prosecuted, and always at least
try to do the right thing absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
And you know, Nancy, when they're throwing everything at it,
people sometimes forget the families of those four children have to.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Deal with all of this every day. Every day they
are waiting for justice.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
And I guess this is just one horror show after
the Knicks. I mean, can you imagine them hearing that
Coburger's claiming he's autistic. Remember when we at the very
beginning found out and he is the one that put
this online. This is why we know about it. Had
the white snow. If you where he would like I
(24:32):
think see and or hear like the white snow you
see on your TV. He was tested and nawsham to
find out about that, and they didn't. They couldn't tell
the end he was autistic. If that's true, of course
they could have so they are. They also do not
want the word psychopath or sociopath to be mentioned in
(24:56):
the courtroom. And they are claiming that his newly diagnosed autism.
It's why he looks like a killer. When you're on
defense says that you're in trouble.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Let me tell you when your own attorney is trying
to explain why you have a death stare, that ain't good.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I remember, sure. I don't know if you saw this
trial or not. I was trying to go for murder
and talking about not wanting the jerry to look at
your client. The guy had shaved into the back of
his head the words hit man number one. And so
whenever I could, I would walk over to that side
of the courtroom so he would turn his head.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Look so the jury could get a really good look
at that.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yes, yes, two times, good.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Times, honey. Well what you doing this weekend?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Let's see, Well, I'm taking the children on spring break.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Oh wonderful.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
I'm just really looking forward to just having some time
with them that I'm not working like a crazy person,
and they're not under the gun studying, and they're in
a school that's very let me say, they say there
is a high degree of rigor to see. To me,
that means rigor Mortons, And I'm like, what they mean.
(26:22):
It's really hard. I mean, don't say rigor around somebody
like me, okay, because let me take it the wrong way.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That means something completely different, does yep?
Speaker 3 (26:33):
But they were really hard. They study all the time,
and now they're taking their acts and so they're always,
you know, under the gun. And I just want them
to be free, because they got the rest of their
lives to punch a clock and be under the gun.
I know, Well, was you the very first job? Real job?
(26:55):
Babysitting and raking leaves does not count.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
No, My very first real job was it riches at
Lennox Square when I was seventeen. I was a store detective,
so I got to walk around and try to catch shoplifters.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Oh, I'm so jealous. My first job, and I was
probably underage, was at fifteen at Sears and Roebuck at
the Macon Mall, and I'll never forget when they put
me in the mechanic area, go in the stock room
and look for something for like thirty minutes. I'm like, well,
I don't even know what I'm looking for anymore? What
was it? Such guy would come up and asked her
(27:30):
like so and so scrub, like sorry, you're just gonna
have to help yourself. Wasn't we talking about now my
favorite spot, the candy shop? Of course, yes, I did it.
I admit I ate the profits I brought that. Let
me eat it.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
I have thown you more than thirty five years. I've
never heard that story before.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
They finally put me in junior fashions, where I basically
just folded up, closed after people. And you know what,
I never leave dressing room messy. I thank the Lord
every day, you know, just I start every prayer with
faiki because it's bigger and better than I could have
ever dreamed. David hadn't crapped out on me, yet it's
(28:16):
still here. I nearly let him to the other night
because I cooked, and I mean cook. I wish he'd
have been here. I made homemade salmon patties, fresh squash onions.
As I told you, the maid mashed potatoes. And what
(28:36):
was the other thing, Oh yes, fresh shad green beans.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Oh yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
My mother loves them. All he has to do is
clean up after. And what did I find the next morning?
Gouie junk all over the counter. I'm like, you do
know you're clean up and clothed surfaces, right, you understand
the surfaces. I don't want to put my elbow in something.
Sticky said that, but then I felt sorry for him,
(29:03):
so I didn't.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
A little mercy.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
We are both in a situation we don't deserve, either
one of us.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
We both have men we don't deserve, and children we
don't deserve it. You know what, I'm gonna take it,
and I'm gonna enjoy everything of it.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, I'm gonna keep faking it and let them think
I'm a great mom and think I'm all that. Let
David think he got the prize. Okay, I have to
go fight crime. Okay, I don't have time to talk
about naked babies afraid of the dark anymore.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
You have a great time, y. I'll be safe, Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I'll be in touch with you, you know, I'll be sending pictures.
I love you.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I love you too, baby,
Welcome to Crime Round Up. Well, look y'all, right out
of the gate. I'm just gonna put a bird under
Nancy Grace's saddle.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Good morning, honey.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I hope you don't go where I think you're going.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Oh I am, I am going straight there. I cannot wait.
I'm just going to float you a question. Nancy Casey
Anthony is a victim's advocate.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Go you know, Cheryl, with all the people in the
world that need our help, a light shine on their case,
unsolved homicides, missing people, especially children. You want to talk
about top mom, Okay, Brandon. Kelly Anthony had just turned three.
(00:56):
Do you remember Caroline when she was three? Yeah? I
went there, think about baby Caroline, your little sweetheart. Kelly
and I went there many times. I moved to Orlando
with the children for the trial. I went many, many
(01:20):
times to wear Kelly's body three years old, a little
bitty thing, just the sweetest, cutest, those big eyes looking
up was bagged in black plastic trash bags from the
Anthony home. No question, had thrown into a swampy area
(01:48):
about ten houses from the Anthony home. That area covered
in trash. It's very woody, and people throw things out
there as they go by, trash used tires lick her
bottles all full of dirt by now, and that was
(02:10):
where she laid. Now wait, see, this is what people
don't like to think about. This is what I have
to think about. What happened? Then? The skin slid off
her arms, All of her soft tissue began to rot.
(02:36):
Flies found their way in and began to lay eggs
that turned into maggots, and she decomposed minute by minute
in that Florida heat. She was found by accident by
(02:56):
mister Kronk, who then went under suspension himself for doing
the right thing. There is a wake of pain connected
to todd Mom that will never end. Why I know
(03:17):
its a crime victim, it never ends. Keith's murder affected
my life. I couldn't remarry, I couldn't think about it.
The thought of it would literally make me sick to
my stomach. Therefore I waited till I was much older
to have children, and Lucy nearly died because of it.
(03:37):
What do you think this is done to George and
Cindy nearly destroyed their marriage. Just to think about the
worst thing you have ever done, Think about it being
brought out on the witness stand. The worst thing. I
don't even want to know what it is because I
can't think you would ever do anything wrong. So just
(04:01):
think about it. That is what he endured. Their life
has been destroyed. And now and even Cindy goes on
the stand and I believe committed perjury to try and
save top Mom. Everybody's having a good old time talking
(04:25):
about Top Mom making money off idiots online. This is
what the case is really about. It's about Kelly, who
murdered Kelly. Prosecutors say tot Mom did. Now a jury
said otherwise, and they have gone on to say they
regretted it and were haunted by their decisions. But that's
a day late and a dollar sure. That moment has passed.
(04:49):
Now we are at another moment in time to make
a stand. Top Mom says she is a legal advocate.
Why she says she's been in the quote legal phils.
It's twenty eleven, that's when she was trying for murder.
That is her exposure to the legal system. She's left
off one man after the next since then. And now
(05:11):
I guess she's run out of money. I did notice
she had enough money to get her hair straightened that said,
moving forward, anybody that pays for that is you know what,
as Judge Bellevin Perry said, a sucker is born every day.
But I think part of it is like you cannot help,
(05:32):
no matter how much you say, You're not usually just
gonna speed on by. You do look at the car crash,
You look, all right, you glance. I think that's what
this is. But sadly this costs money, and that money
goes into her pocket. Go get a job, woman, or
better yet, go away. Haters are begging, go away.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That was beautiful, And I'm going to tell you something
you started and made me think of Caroline. Then you
move into that description you had me And I tell
people all the time when I used to sit in
court and watch you, you were the best I've ever seen.
You would take that jury, you would make them get connected.
(06:14):
They had no choice what you did. Just then, when
you made that description you will, you immediately said, but wait,
you knew now she's going to tell me more. I
don't want to know more, but she's gonna make me.
And you do it in such a way that people
feel like, now I'm responsible, I need to do something.
(06:35):
We are responsible.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
We were responsible for making a stand about what's right
and what's wrong now. She also issued a dire warning
she's watching out for oral slender and uh live on slender.
No one can ever say anything slanderous, but I can
(06:58):
say anger. A prosecutor charged her with Kelly's murder and
brought on a mountain of evidence to prove it. I
can say that.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
It ain't slammered if it's true.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well, the truth is a complete defense, that's for sure.
That is for sure, miss Thing. Now, can we talk
about something we can actually affect? Because there are gonna
be people wack of doodles. What man is attracted to
top Mom Casey anying? Because I tell you what, I
think I'd see Kegel extending right behind hers as bearing
at me. You know no, I mean, oh that's a
(07:35):
bucket of cold water. But you know what, whatever, go
don't care. I'd just be mad if you didn't. So
can we talk about something that we that's happening now,
that maybe somehow we can affect Coburger I near bringing
up top mon first, by the way, you little weirdo el.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
But I've had five four hundred and thirty seven people
text me going, please o't cry round up.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Get that out of the gate.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I want to hear Nancy well, baby, y'all got her,
and y'all heard some of the best right off the cuff.
So you know, here's the thing about Coburger now that
fascinates me. His attorney is saying, I don't want this
particular DNA to come in.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Oh I'm so happy because if they don't want it,
that means I do want it.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
A men, I don't even know what it is.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
I mean, as soon as the defenses stand up and say,
I'm said them like, I'm against it, what is it?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I want two of it?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I agree under the victims singer nail there's three different
DNA samples from three different people, and the defense doesn't
want that coming in. Explain to people why they wouldn't
that that would be one of those things. It seems
like they would say, Hey, that prooves there was a
bunch of people there that night, it's not Coburger.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Well, first of all, you're absolutely right if the defense
wants to suppressed, I want an end and frankly, there's
not a legal basis to keep it out. If it
was at the crime scene and part of the investigation,
it comes in. So the only way, the only objection
would be irrelevant and irrelevant of all the objections is
(09:24):
the weakest objection. And I'll tell you why. When a
case goes up on appeal, if the defense has not
made an objection at the time of the trial, they
have not quote perfected the record. So if I sit
there and let evidets pour in as the defense attorney
and I don't object, you can't then on appeal go, hey,
(09:46):
that Aviden shouldn't have come in. No, it doesn't work
like that. You have to perfect the record and you
have to object at the time. Even if you're overruled,
you must object or else you've not preserved the record.
So what I'm saying is on appeal, if the objection,
the only objection is irrelevant, that is not a typically
(10:10):
a ground for reversal. So the only objection I see here,
since it is part of the crime scene, there's no objections.
Let's pretend there's a pink hat sitting in the corner.
There's no reason to keep out the photo of the
pink hat. Is it relevant? No, but you there's no
grounds to keep it out right, see what I mean.
(10:32):
So there's DNA at the scene. What is your grounds
for keeping it out? It's part of the investigation. It's
under the fingernails we believe of Mattie Mogan that night,
Maddie and Kelley Gold's office, we think slept in the
same bin. And you're such a DNA expert yourself, Cheryl,
(10:54):
that you know, just even touching Kelly, or hugging or
Deny or putting her hair in a pilony tailer, anything
could have left DNA under Maddie's fingernail. It could have
been when she reached out and got something at a
food truck. It could have been anything at all that
she came in contact with, write anything. So there's really
(11:19):
no telling who the DNA belongs to. I am very curious.
I mean, it could be killing Goosavis's DNA, but I'm
very curious if it's just not enough DNA to get
a match. Is it degenerated? Is it from the nails word?
I mean, it could be anything, but I'm just wondering
(11:42):
if they sent, how they sent the DNA, if there's
enough of it to a specialty boutique DNA lab like
you know, authoring maybe and you and I have met,
Oh my goodness, She's not only beautiful, she's brilliant. The
there's a man and a woman that run it. They're married,
and that woman she is amazing. I'm gonna thank you.
(12:08):
We're naming just two second starts with.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
An Emson mother Christian Middleman.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
That's it. That's it. She just crackles with intelligence. I
guess listen to her all day long. Anyway. Their boutique
lab specialty is degraded DNA in small amounts of DNA.
What is degreeed DNA? Degraded DNA is when DNA has
been mixed with other DNA. Let's just say the DNA
(12:34):
is mixed, been in the mud, been in the water,
been mixed with other people's DNA, is compromised, is old.
It's just very small amount of it. It could be
any problem with the DNA. I'm just wondering if the
DNA has been sent to a boutique DNA lab, and
if not, they should, Yeah, said, will'll delay the trial
(12:57):
some more, but really it's in all to injury. We've
already been delayed for years, So I would try it.
If it hasn't already been done, absolutely try it. Maybe
a stab in the dark. Okay, that's not a good example.
It may be a long shot let me say that
at getting a result, but I would at least try it.
(13:18):
So you've got the DNA under Matty's fingernails. They don't
want an end because they believe that the defense, even
though it's inconclusive, that a jury will believe that Mattie
scratched somebody and just didn't get a good match and
just wasn't enough to get a match, and that it's coburger.
I'm guessing that's why they don't lay the implication of
(13:41):
DNA under Maddie's fingernails. The truth is we all have
DNA under our fingernails right now. I just cleaned about
three pounds of squash because my mom and the twinsle
with squash onions. You know what, when I touched that
grocery bag, when I I touched so many things that
came from the grocery store, there's no telling whose DNA
(14:04):
I have under my fingernails. And if it was explained
like that to the jury, it might be different. But
I don't know how Anne Taylor the defense is with
her openings and closings to a jury, you know, because
some lawyers just irritate the hay out of you. When
they start talking. It's just like turn off, like you
turn off the TV. You just tune now. So I
(14:26):
don't know how she is in front of a jury.
We'll see. Also in the last hours, the texts between
the roommates, they surviving roommates have emerged a show that
the roommates were terrified that night they knew something was
going on and one of the phones, one of their
(14:48):
phones was going dead and the other one was saying,
just run to my room really fast. I mean, we're
gonna learn a lot. Oh oh, sorry, I hate to backtrack.
This is why I had a a clear map as
to how I would argue to a jury, and I
would try not to deviate from it. So the evidence,
(15:08):
the arguments, we can get jumbled up together. But I
got a back track, hold on. I need a sympathy, okay.
I also believe that our new revelation that there is
DNA and Matty Mogan's fingernails indicates to me anyway that
there is going to be more DNA at the scene
than we have known about. Because everybody's been screaming, where's the.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Blood, where's the DNA, Where's that.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Love God and that because all we've heard about is
the DNA on the knife sheep touch DNA. This tells
me there's more DNA that we don't know about, which
you and I thought there would be at some point,
and there is. I think this is an indicator that
we're going to seem more.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I know you and I talked early early on that
it reminded me of doctor Jeffrey McDonald in that they're
gonna be able to tell you the movement of that killer.
They're gonna know who was stabbed first, who was stabbed second,
who was stabbed third, who was stabbed fourth. They're gonna
know that, and that's gonna come out. And I think
(16:16):
this also reminds me of the Ramsey case in that
Patsy when they said they could not exclude her from
being the person that wrote the ransom note.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
If they can't.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Exclude Coberger from one of the three samples, that defense
attorney knows good and well they know what that means.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Only question is where are you and I going to
stay here in the trial?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Ain't that the truth?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Kang? Do you think I'll really go this summer?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I do think I think this judge is it gonna.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Go right when I'm taking twins on the casion? Is
that what's happening here?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Though, you'll be able to go, Oh, lordy lord, believe it,
because I don't think that.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
They want to go to Idaho, brothers. Although you know
what I know. It's beautiful. You've seen that, boy, it's gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yes, it is one of the prettiest states. And I
wasn't ready for it. I didn't know that much about
Idaho before I went. It is gorgeous.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
It's really pretty. When I went the last time, it
was covered in snow and ice. I didn't get to
see a lot of it. But I have been there
before and it's really pretty in the summertime. Now, letting
me think. Okay, now back to what I'm learning. When
I learned every night text messages between the two survivors,
(17:37):
I always want to say that I think of Harry Potter,
the Boy who Lived. Wait, wait a minute, I bet
you didn't read Harry Potter right now? What do you
watch some reality show like He's gonna marry the one
guy and it's all rigged and somebody gets a rose
then they break up five minutes after they get their money.
I bet you watch that.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Whatever that is, I'll tell you one that.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Oh my love, oh lord, we what they just this unbelievable,
just fantastic.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Tell me the name naked and afraid.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I see now I wish I hadn't asked that question. Now,
that's the real number one in front of a jury,
never asked the question you don't know the answer to.
I'll tell you a lost story about naked and afraid.
So John David who went to a spend the night
when he was just a little boy, and I, of
course was completely against it because spend the nights to
me renderom elastation. So I'm like, oh, you know, in
(18:31):
my mind I didn't want him to go. I slept
with the phone by my ear, hoping he would call
me to come again. I'm sure enough. At midnight he did,
I'll be right over. I got out there and I'm like, son,
why don't you want to come home? And he went, Well,
they made us all sleep at the basement on the
cement floor. I got cold because I didn't have a
(18:53):
blanket or a pillow, and I'm like, oh, they'll definitely
charge these a holes and so, but sadly they got
went to the breschool with and I thought, okay, I'm
not gonna cause a big stink gee them a new
reary end. But I'm like, oh no, well come on
home and goes and I said, well, did you ask
(19:14):
for a pillow? Sweetheart? And I sent him with a
pillow and a blanket, and guess what he did. He
loaned it to another little boy that didn't have a
pillow or blanket, and so he had nothing. I said, well,
did you ask the mommy and daddy for a blanket? Cares?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Well?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I went upstairs and they were in bed watching TV
and there were naked people on there and I went, okay,
no more than that. And I said, oh, yes, I
know what that's all about. That's about. And I was
just talking on limit because I was not ready to
talk about porn, okay, And so he was like whatever
age he was, and I said, oh, yes, that's that's
(19:53):
the show about. I'm thinking who would be naked? I
went naked, Baby's the Free of the Dark. That's the
name of that. Your baby's afraid of the dark. And
he looked at me, said, mom, they were grown up.
So I'm like, no, they weren't. They go to sleep
and so now whenever anything pops up on the TV
that I won't don't want to sound like, look is naked,
(20:16):
baby's afraid of the dark. I'm so disappointed in you.
What did you say? It is naked?
Speaker 1 (20:25):
What?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Naked? And afraid?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Oh, dear lord, Okay, it's awesome. Lucy has been out
of school sick, and I let her stay out a
third day, which was totally wrong. So we she and
I can get in the bed under the curbs and
watch dexter text messages between the two surviving roommates. That
(20:49):
would be Dylan Mortenson and I'll just call him DM
and BF about four twenty two and four twenty four
of talking all the top of my head right now,
the two of them, Dylan Martin sending Bethany Funk were
sending nearly twenty text messages back and forth afraid somebody
(21:09):
is in the house and they are so afraid and
fuck you're saying just come to my room, run run
run down here? Can you amention that? And the one
other roommate is afraid to come out and run for it,
and I think you know, people have really attacked Dylan
(21:32):
and going, well, why did you open the door? I
wonder if she was opening the door to run the
funk's room, and when she did, she sees the bushy
eyebrows and the tall white male and oh my goodness.
In addition to these text messages, this just threw me
(21:57):
into a fit. The is arguing they don't want the
word murder to be allowed in the courtroom. And reminder,
this is a murder case with murder charge in the
murder indictment, and they don't want the word. They don't
want butshy eyebrows to come in. And of course everybody's
(22:20):
gonna look right at him when they say butchy eyebrows.
Of course he's going to be all manscaped by the
time he gets into the church up probably want to
have you any eyebrows at all. By then I'll be
plucked out. But they're crazy defense strategy. I mean, it's
just a papoury, it's a smorgas board, it's a crack
(22:42):
pot of everything bad in your kitchen. That's what the
defense is right now.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Well, they've also thrown in that he's autistic.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yes, after nearly thirty years, suddenly the defense has diagnosed
Rank Coberger is being autistic. And the reason is they
believe that could save him from the death penalty under
US Supreme Court case law. That is not going to
save him from the death penalty if it makes it
(23:12):
that far. He is a pH d student, he is
teaching criminality. He knew right from wrong, so that's not
going to work. But we see that they're trying anything
in everything, which I guess is their job. They're paid
to do it. I'm just glad that I had a
(23:34):
choice that I could luckily turn down cases that I
did not believe should be prosecuted, and prosecute cases that
I did believe should be prosecuted, and always at least
try to do the right thing absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
And you know, Nancy, when they're throwing everything at it,
people sometimes forget the families of those four children have to.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Deal with all of this every day. Every day they
are waiting for justice.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
And I guess this is just one horror show after
the Knicks. I mean, can you imagine them hearing that
Coburger's claiming he's autistic. Remember when we at the very
beginning found out and he is the one that put
this online. This is why we know about it. Had
the white snow. If you where he would like I
(24:32):
think see and or hear like the white snow you
see on your TV. He was tested and nawsham to
find out about that, and they didn't. They couldn't tell
the end he was autistic. If that's true, of course
they could have so they are. They also do not
want the word psychopath or sociopath to be mentioned in
(24:56):
the courtroom. And they are claiming that his newly diagnosed autism.
It's why he looks like a killer. When you're on
defense says that you're in trouble.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Let me tell you when your own attorney is trying
to explain why you have a death stare, that ain't good.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I remember, sure. I don't know if you saw this
trial or not. I was trying to go for murder
and talking about not wanting the jerry to look at
your client. The guy had shaved into the back of
his head the words hit man number one. And so
whenever I could, I would walk over to that side
of the courtroom so he would turn his head.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Look so the jury could get a really good look
at that.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yes, yes, two times, good.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Times, honey. Well what you doing this weekend?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Let's see, Well, I'm taking the children on spring break.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Oh wonderful.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
I'm just really looking forward to just having some time
with them that I'm not working like a crazy person,
and they're not under the gun studying, and they're in
a school that's very let me say, they say there
is a high degree of rigor to see. To me,
that means rigor Mortons, And I'm like, what they mean.
(26:22):
It's really hard. I mean, don't say rigor around somebody
like me, okay, because let me take it the wrong way.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That means something completely different, does yep?
Speaker 3 (26:33):
But they were really hard. They study all the time,
and now they're taking their acts and so they're always,
you know, under the gun. And I just want them
to be free, because they got the rest of their
lives to punch a clock and be under the gun.
I know, Well, was you the very first job? Real job?
(26:55):
Babysitting and raking leaves does not count.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
No, My very first real job was it riches at
Lennox Square when I was seventeen. I was a store detective,
so I got to walk around and try to catch shoplifters.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Oh, I'm so jealous. My first job, and I was
probably underage, was at fifteen at Sears and Roebuck at
the Macon Mall, and I'll never forget when they put
me in the mechanic area, go in the stock room
and look for something for like thirty minutes. I'm like, well,
I don't even know what I'm looking for anymore? What
was it? Such guy would come up and asked her
(27:30):
like so and so scrub, like sorry, you're just gonna
have to help yourself. Wasn't we talking about now my
favorite spot, the candy shop? Of course, yes, I did it.
I admit I ate the profits I brought that. Let
me eat it.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
I have thown you more than thirty five years. I've
never heard that story before.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
They finally put me in junior fashions, where I basically
just folded up, closed after people. And you know what,
I never leave dressing room messy. I thank the Lord
every day, you know, just I start every prayer with
faiki because it's bigger and better than I could have
ever dreamed. David hadn't crapped out on me, yet it's
(28:16):
still here. I nearly let him to the other night
because I cooked, and I mean cook. I wish he'd
have been here. I made homemade salmon patties, fresh squash onions.
As I told you, the maid mashed potatoes. And what
(28:36):
was the other thing, Oh yes, fresh shad green beans.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Oh yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
My mother loves them. All he has to do is
clean up after. And what did I find the next morning?
Gouie junk all over the counter. I'm like, you do
know you're clean up and clothed surfaces, right, you understand
the surfaces. I don't want to put my elbow in something.
Sticky said that, but then I felt sorry for him,
(29:03):
so I didn't.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
A little mercy.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
We are both in a situation we don't deserve, either
one of us.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
We both have men we don't deserve, and children we
don't deserve it. You know what, I'm gonna take it,
and I'm gonna enjoy everything of it.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, I'm gonna keep faking it and let them think
I'm a great mom and think I'm all that. Let
David think he got the prize. Okay, I have to
go fight crime. Okay, I don't have time to talk
about naked babies afraid of the dark anymore.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
You have a great time, y. I'll be safe, Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I'll be in touch with you, you know, I'll be sending pictures.
I love you.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I love you too, baby,
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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