Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum tackle the latest in the Diddy and Kohberger cases that are dominating crime news. They confront the haunting question posed to survivors: “Why won’t you just leave?”
Nancy uses her experience prosecuting domestic violence cases to explain the grim calculus that keeps victims trapped, especially when their abuser holds the keys to their future, their finances, or their public image. New testimony from Kid Cudi links Diddy to a Molotov cocktail car bombing, escalating the investigation. Nancy and Sheryl reveal how Cassie Ventura’s mom took out a $20,000 loan to keep intimate footage of Cassie from being released.
Lastly, Nancy turns to Idaho, where the Bryan Kohberger murder trial faces further delays after previously unseen investigation footage was reportedly leaked to Dateline.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:15) Today’s CRU is the latest on the Kohberger case along with the Diddy case
- (3:00) Nancy explains why victims don’t “just leave” abusive relationships
- (6:00) Diddy extorts Cassie Ventura’s mother
- (7:00) “ You don't ever wanna end up with a guy who holds something over you. I don't care what it is. Your career, your job, the payment on your car.”
- (12:00) Kid Cudi testifies about molotov cocktail
- (19:00) What Happened to Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice
- (19:15) Latest on Bryan Kohberger case
- (21:45) Dateline footage causes grounds for a delay in trial
- (25:00) Wrap up
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Crime Roundup, y'all. I am so excited.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I am sitting in a field in the middle of
Tennessee and I am joined by the lovely, talented, beautiful,
hilarious Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
I'm totally jealous because if you're in the middle of
a field a Tennessee, that means you're on a crime scene.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Listen, I am so excited. The eight year old me
can hardly stand it because today I'm going to go
to the ambush site of Sheriff Buford Pusser and his
wife Pauline, and it's just going to be a tremendous
event for me. It's kind of a full circle moment.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well, well, you know what, Wait a minute, let's say
full circle. Does that mean you're at the end of Wait,
a circle's never ending? Because I need you back on
the show big time. I got to figure everything out
about Coburg, and I've got to figure everything out about Diddy.
Can we start with Coburger because he hasn't been getting
enough attention lately, Because Diddy and his sex trafficking is
taken over the world. Excuse me, correction, itty Bitty Diddy.
(01:14):
He's not just a Tootsie roll. He's toos roll Midge.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
When I saw your clip with you undoing the TUTSI
roll rapper, I don't know. I don't know that I've
laughed that hard with you in about twenty years. That
was show classic, show classic.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
My daughter saw it too, and I'm sure you didn't
know what it meant, right, She said, no, Mamma, I
didn't know anything. I know nothing.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Had a girl.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Today's their first day out of school and she's in
the kitchen and watching her making some kind of a concoction.
What is that, honey? It's coffee with a shot of
his key, now a shot of what? Coffee and milk? Now,
John David is perfectly happy for me to make whatever,
any thing for breakfast. It could be Krispy kremes. It
(02:02):
could be my classic egg McMuffin that I make ahead
of time. It could be these little chocolate danishes. Hey, Lucy,
remember when I was on that smoothie Yeah, I was
in a smoothie kick with John David. I was making
him green smoothies out of spinach. And finally it had
(02:23):
been going for like eight or nine months, he said, Mom,
could I have something the green.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Smoothie and so yeah, anyway, now we're on the egg
McMuffin where I put har Vardy keys and eggs on an.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
English muffin with a little bit of Crosier salt. So
he likes that right now. And now I guess I
can move on to coburger. But I'm you can be
in your field in Tennessee. I'm happy being here with
the twins, can we? So what do we need to
talk about first? Coburger? Do we need to go that
verdict before we move on to Diddy?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Oh goodness, Okay, hey, one thing about Diddy. Everybody is
still saying, which they beat into me at the Battery
Women's Center, not to ever say, even though I thought
it a couple of times, why don't you just leave?
Just leave? It's not like that at all, And unless
you've really dealt with it, it's hard to explain. But
(03:18):
I've seen women, literally the one I told you about
that came into a body cast from the hip down.
They with the abuser trying to get me to drop charges.
I didn't, but they I don't know what it is.
They can't leave. Many times it's because the husband or
the partner is making all the money they have children.
(03:39):
People put up with a lot of crap to stay
with their children, right and thinking, well, we need to
keep quote the family together until they what get out
of high school, get out of preschool, get out of whatever,
you know, and so they try to hold it together
or in cash eventurists position. I think it was because
(04:04):
she would lose her whole dream, her dream, her life,
dream of being a recording artist. Like I remember I
told you about when the judge and you know him,
but case she'll remain nameless. I actually think he's dead now.
But that said, I never said a word. I never
breathed a word when a judge plant went on me
right in the mouth. I've never clinched my teeth so
(04:25):
tightly in my whole life. But I never said a
word because I didn't want it to affect what other
judges might perceive of me. I might get taken out
of the trial rotation. I didn't know what that meant
for the victims I had been representing. Would the cases
be handed off to people that really didn't care, that
would just plead it down to you know, we had
(04:47):
there are a lot of prosecutors that don't want to
go to trial. They're afrared they're going to lose. Just
you know what, just go try the case. Guns are
blazon and so they plead them down cheap or they
don't want to be bothered preparing for a trial. It
pains me to say that, but yes, there are those prosecutors,
and I didn't want those cases to land in the
(05:07):
hands of a you know, Lukewarren prosecutor, so I just
kept going. Now, of course one kiss is not on
par with what Cassie Vanteria lived through, but I can
say that she's young. She's nineteen when she meets Combs,
and she wants to be recording artists, and she's a
very talented, very beautiful, very charismatic, and she really thought
(05:31):
Sean Combs could ruin her career. And guess what he could,
so she put up with it.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Let's talk about the other reality.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
If you look perfect, if you do exactly what he
says to do, and he still beats you, what is
he going to do if you leave him, if you
embarrass him, if you go against him. That's what he's
also telling you every day. Where are you going that
he can't reach you? He owns the apartment, he has
(05:59):
the ever taking you places. You're gonna run to your mom.
Your mom's now not safe. I mean, you're caught in
this horrible trap.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
When I found out he started cassif In Terra's mother
her mother, and you know, they didn't have two Nichols
to rub together. It reminds me of mother and daddy
trying to scrape together our tuition to go to Mercery
University between her working and yes, she was the CFO
of a canning lanty and she never did, you know,
(06:34):
want to talk about this, but they made the cans
for bud was her or was it perhaps? And you
know several other soft drinks. But you know, we had
to quit going to the corner store because they started
selling beer. We could not go in the corner store
again anyway. So that was that's the family secret. That
they also made eb ur Kans. I think you was.
(06:55):
She had the longest hours and it was about a
forty minute drive from home. My dad was working Norfolk Southern.
They worked so hard to put us through, all three
of us through Mercy University. And my brother was on
the extended land, so he and my sister, he's about
four years older than her, graduated at the same tide,
(07:17):
and somehow he was the one that ended up with
a fancy house on a golf course. But anyway, that happened.
But I'm thinking about how Cassie's mother and father had
to go take out a home equity loan on their
home to get twenty thousand dollars to pay Sean Combs
(07:38):
when he had beaten Cassie Ventura loose. He are you listening.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
What?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
You don't ever want to end up with a guy
who holds something over you. I don't care what it is,
your career, your job, the payment on your car. No,
you can do all that on your own. You do
not need a man to do any of that for you.
She already knows this, and she's been hearing this. It's
sick that shit could walk. But they had to put
(08:06):
a get a home equity loan because Sean Colmes had
explicit videos of her without her clothes on and was
threatening to release one I think on Christmas and one
of the day after Christmas or some evil plan like that,
and he had beaten her. Now he was claiming he
(08:27):
wanted to be recouped for her training whatever, and they
wired to him through his accountant. That's where the Rico
case is going to be proven, right there, using your
company employees to carry out a crime. And he sent
the money back. But it doesn't matter. Once you have
extorted someone, once you have blackmailed someone and you took
(08:51):
the money, it doesn't matter if you cash a check
or throw it out the window. The deed is done.
It's over. You can't take it back. He extorted money
from Cassie Ventira's mother, who was totally broke. And don't
you know, Cheryl, They thought, oh, she she got the
lottery tickets, she got the golden ring by hooking up,
(09:13):
meeting up with Sean Combs. He's gonna be her future.
And you know what a horrible disappointment and embarrassment it
must have been for Cassie Interior to tell her mother.
This is really what's happening.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
What they're showing is every single person in his sphere
is telling you he is violent, he's manipulative, he is cunning.
He's somebody that's going to be revengeful. That's a dangerous person.
And so you're talking about not just Cassie and her mama,
(09:47):
You're talking about other rappers. You're talking about people close
to him, other employees that have seen this behavior.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Well, the wit culminated with Kid Cuddy on the stand,
who I'd just say he's very I've always liked Cuddy.
He's very, very talented. He's also charismatic, but when he's
not on camera, he seems kind of humble acting. I
don't know if that's real or not. That's just how
he struck me a couple of times. And he's often
talked about growing up, having depression and things he went
(10:21):
through growing up. He did not have an easy youth,
to put it mildly, to have his car molotogged. Now,
I don't know if you remember. Right before I left
the DA's office to start Court TV. To start at
Court TV, I was working on DPP, a death penalty
(10:41):
case where two gangs sets. What is that? That's the
women that date the men in the gang were warring
over some clothes, yes, clotts, clothes, and they got the
gang members involved, and some male gang members made molotavs
(11:03):
and went to the apartment. It was a two story
apartment of the set queen all right, and the inside
the apartment on the second floor were two infant I
think they were both girls, infant girls. I think they
were twins. Still in like to lay out there were
(11:23):
that tiny newborns. They make the molotaph and before they
throw it in the window, they actually screamed out, let's
fry them babies, and they did. The children. The babies
did not die of smoke inhalation. They burned to death,
which I got to tell you is I think the
(11:44):
worst way to die anyway. That's when I was trying well.
I did create a specialty in the study of arson
and prosecuting arsens, which are very very technical different You
have to first show that a crime even occurred, that
this fire was signed an accident. Then even though all
(12:07):
the evidence is burned and gone, you have to prove
who did it. So it was a real challenge for
me and I liked that. But I learned then a
lot about molotab With my other arsens had been other
accelerants that other types of arsons. They're extremely unpredictable. If
anything goes wrong, you end up burning other people that
(12:29):
you may not have intended to burn, and the victim
will burn immediately. But a Malovatov was thrown onto the
car of kid Cuddy, who was dating Cassie Ventura and
a month before the car bomb, Sean comes the scent
(12:50):
is going to blow up Cuddy's car, and then a
month later, bam, the car blew up with a Molotov.
So it's just like Scott Peterson. I don't know what
if it's at Gearagoes connection, but Scott Peterson says it says,
my first Christmas without my wife, she's dead. And two
(13:12):
weeks later, bam, it was his first Christmas without his wife.
She was deck because he killed her. Or like j
Simpson and his clairvoyant dream that he killed Nicole Brown,
yeah he did. So here we've got Shawn Holmes having
a clairvoyant moment, like three weeks before that he was
gonna blow up kick cut, his car is gonna blow up,
(13:33):
and then it did.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
And especially that unique of a thing.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Not somebody's gonna jump you, somebody's gonna you know, steal
your money, but your car is gonna blow up.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And you know he.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Also broke into his house. So again, you want to
talk about something that's gonna throw you off a little bit.
You get a phone call that, hey, Shawn Holmes is
inside your house, like you're just waiting there, on me.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
He broke in to confront Cuddy and he went in there,
and I was doing a hit last night with Harvey Levin.
We're extremely different kind of people, but I really like Levin.
You know, he started, he founded and runs TMZ, the
(14:19):
thirty Miles Zone, which I love TMZ. But he's also
a lawyer. He did not just fall off the turnip truck.
So he's doing he's got a to b show. I
something the trial of I don't even know the name
of it, maybe the Trial of Diddy. But Takapina was
on there, who for a moment flirted with the idea
of representing Comes. I had a couple other people who
(14:43):
were all so great. But anyway, somebody said, I think
it was Levin that Comes. I already knew. Comes went
in there and was just sitting there like the perf
he is. Why do you go to somebody's house and
just sit there. It was at Christmas time, and he
penned up a bunch of Chanel bags that were under
the Christmas tree, apparently for Cassie. From Cudding to Cassie.
(15:06):
I guess this is what I heard last night, to
see what Cuddy was giving her for Christmas and was
just sitting there waiting. After that, the car bomb happened.
Then we heard about him taking off the shoot shug night.
I mean, it just goes on. This guy is such
a thug, and people keep saying, Oh, he may be jellous,
he may be brutaling to be a ship. But has
(15:26):
the state proven in their case? Yes, yes, may have.
Everybody keeps talking about how difficult it is to prove
a Rico case. It's not rico. Racketeering in a criminal
organization is just think of the Sopranos. I was living
all alone up in New York at that time, and
I would always make a big pot of collar greens
(15:49):
on Sunday night, and nobody would eat collar greens in
New York, you know where. I would have to buy
my collar greens at the pet store because I found
out that they feed them to iguanas. Yes, so I
get me a big back a car greens at a
pet store and cook them and watched the price. I
(16:09):
was so lonely up there, and so that's something I'll
look forward to, because you know, I've never really watched TV,
believe it or not, but I would watch that anyway.
Tony Soprano was the head of the snake, the snake
being the criminal enterprise. And it's a loose confederation, right.
It's not like they're getting a payroll check with the
(16:31):
taxes deduction. That's that's not happening. It's like Uncle Paul
did the bucks, and this one ran a ship club,
and that one wandered money, and this one sold shrugs,
and that one stole TVs off the back of trucks,
and that one killed so and so lukely confederated. Half
of them didn't know what the other one was doing,
and they all answered to Soprano. Same thing here. That's
(16:54):
what it is. The accountant got the money, extorted the
money from Cassie Inturvor's mom, and sent an email instructions
about how to wire the extorted floods idiot, okay. And
then you have another bodyguard that physically chased down Cassivcenturro.
It physically dragged her back to combs. Then you've got
(17:17):
the assistant that got immunity to testify about having to
go buy ecstasy and other drugs for seawn comes. And
then you got another one to do this, and another
one did that, and another one set up the Freaknent
and the freak Offs and another woman got the drugs
under a pseudonym Frank Blat. I mean, all these people
(17:38):
another one arranged for the sex workers, come across state lines.
It's just, you know, all these people together are propping it.
Did it? That's what a criminal enterprise is. Bam, there
you go, done, proven.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And don't you think somebody has talked, because you and
I have said over and over, the first one to
talk gets the deal. I think somebody's coming up that
they're not counting on.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, I'm wondering if it's Christina Korum, his right hand woman.
He was his Elaine Maxwell to Epstein. Quorum was to Combs,
So I'm wondering, yeah, if they could turn her. But
the two assistants have testified, and both of them were
(18:25):
going to take the fifth, but the judge granted them
immunity so they could testify to that limited you know
fact scenario. I mean, if you find out whether they
robbed a bank or killed somebody, they can be prosecuted,
but for what they testify to, they cannot be prosecuted.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
How could a beautiful, young first grade teacher be stabbed
twenty times? Including in the bat allegedly die of suicide. Yes,
that was the medical examiner's official ruling after a closed meeting.
He first named it a homicide. Why what happened to
Ellen Greenberg? A huge American miscarriage of justice. For an
(19:11):
in depth look at the facts, see what Happened to Ellen?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
On Amazon?
Speaker 5 (19:18):
All proceeds to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
So, Nathy, what in the world are your faults?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
So Coburger, Well, okay, they're climbing a quote alternative purple.
That's what they're calling the quote as to some other
dude did it defense? Sod sod d some O the
dude did it. Now here's the thing about some of
the duw did it defense? And I countered this in
a theorial rape case where the defense there was a
(19:52):
great defense. Attorney two tried to do something in admissibles.
The judge wouldn't want him, but he wanted to bring
in statistics about how many people have been raped in
that neighborhood, in that area, and that they couldn't all
be this perp, and therefore there was another rapist out there,
and therefore there was an alternative purp. Okay, some of
the do do it. But you can't as a defense
(20:15):
blame a phantom. You can't bring his statistics like that
because they, you know, don't bear directly on the case.
In Steve, you can't just claim, Hey, for instance, you
know there was that other home invader that happened a
few months before the murders where there were I think
it was three girls and a double two story structure
(20:38):
not far away that came in dressed in black, wearing
a mask and scared them, and the victim punched him
in the stomach, kicked him in the stomach and he
ran remember, and it sounded just like Coburger. They co
claim that's the killer, but it's a phantom. There's nobody
to connect to that. It may be enough that actually
(21:01):
for the judge to allow it, but for all I know,
that could have been Coburger too, So they may not
want to pick that one because if it were me,
I decided bring that on in because I think that
was your guy. I'll get it a shivelar and transaction
on there.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
Ruria.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
So anyway, let's just let's say some other dude did it. Okay,
so mister Eggs did it. How lucky is mister eggs
that Brian Koburger comes along driving the same car, driving
around the same time, has bushy eyebrows, his cell phone
ping is hidden, he decides randomly, for no reason, to
(21:40):
put his phone on airplane mode.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
He has no alibi.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I mean, what a lucky sob that guy is the DNA.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
It's the Clinton and the DNA.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I mean, wow, how.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
Did the some are the dude somehow commit the crime
with a knife that was handled by Brian Coburger combined
with everything else you just said.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
But here's the most recent wrinkle. Dateline Great show got
a hold of some documents from inside the investigation, and
it was a highly viewed program, and they showed a
(22:27):
lot of stuff nobody's ever seen before, including some footage
that looks like Coburger's car, and they pieced together a
story that was very, very convincing. Now the defense is
arguing that because of that, they need a trial delay, right,
(22:49):
and the families the victims are going berserk? Do you
blame them?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
So?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
I don't know if the judge's going to grant it
or not because of the Dateline special, but I know
right now they're on a rampage because they're trying to
find out who leaked. Somebody within either the defense or
the state leaked that information. For all I know, it
(23:18):
could be anybody from a lead attorney to a lead investigator,
to somebody that was making copies, to somebody that took
the stuff to the mailbox to send it as discovery.
It could be anybody. It could be somebody at Kinkos
for all I know. But somebody within the investigation, either
primarily or tangentially connected to the investigation, has leaked to Dateline,
(23:41):
and Dateline intimated they had a lot more stuff. Well,
that's not good for the case. It's great for Dateline,
but I don't know that a single show is going
to be enough to cause another delay when it's already
been over three years. It'll be just one more question
for the jury I'm boid to hire. Did you see
the Dateline piece? So I don't know how that's going
(24:04):
to shake out, but right now there's grounds for another delay.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
And you know, I don't know how you feel about
this part, but for me, words matter, and when something
is added and it almost is intentional to make something worse,
that's not necessary. First of all, this is a tragedy
it is something that town will never recover from, that
(24:31):
college will ever be associated with this just tragic event.
But when they start talking about Ethan specifically and his
legs being carved.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
But wait, that wasn't true, wasn't No, There's.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
No way that's true, because again that brings up this
image carving. You're either talking about a word or you're
talking about some little systematic you know, over and over
and over. I have no doubt he was stabbed in
the legs. I mean he was asleep, he was face down.
I have no doubt that happened. But the word carved
(25:08):
is one of those things that somebody whoever originally said
that should be taken a task.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
I agree. You know you mentioned something about the school
will never get out from under that shadow. I mean
it will go on by Tom. For instance, FSU people
still talk about the cay Omega Creek murders because of
Ted Bundy. It comes up all the time, and don't
(25:35):
you know, just the admissions team in FSU just shudders
every time. But he talks about that. But you know,
it sticks to a skill like as you know, I
went to Mercy University for undergrad and law school, but
then I also went to NYU to get another degree
in constitutional criminal law, and at the time there was
(25:55):
a big wave of suicides at NYU and NYU for
whatever reason, we'll never get away from that.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
There.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
People still talk about the number of suicides at NYU.
So what something like that happens. There's a stigma attached
to it. I mean, I don't know. Just as recently
as twenty twenty four, two students died NYU two days apart,
(26:28):
allegedly by suicide, and there's apparently some I don't know,
and not a precipice but an open a trim at NYU,
and people have jumped from it. People just continue talking
about it. It's something I think in the library.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, it's horrifying.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
And you know you've got again words matter, facts matter.
You've got four families that are sitting there blasted by
close this statement that comes from whoever it comes from.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Okay, yeah, I gotta do. You just ruined everything from me.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Hey, listen, I got to end on something happeny. Now
that it's summertime, you and the children have got to
come and see the new Training Center for the Wildlife
CSI Academy at Lake Tobias Wildlife Park. We are going
to be able to do law enforcement training inside a zoo.
(27:27):
And let me tell you something, Nancy, They've got a
brand new baby giraffe you can bottle feed.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Okay, where is this in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Lake Tobias Wildlife Park?
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Oh, my goodness, with the baby giraffe.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
They have partnered with us. Oh, you won't believe what
all they have. It is the most amazing, beautiful place
you've ever seen. And Jenna, who helped get all this
started and get us all squared away to do these trainings.
She grew up inside the zoo. Her family's home is
(28:01):
literally inside a zoo.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Can you believe that? What a great childhood.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I can't wait to get y'all up there. But listen,
I gotta go. I got an ambush site to look at.
But I love you and I'll talk to you soon, okay.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
By dear
Welcome to the Crime Roundup, y'all. I am so excited.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I am sitting in a field in the middle of
Tennessee and I am joined by the lovely, talented, beautiful,
hilarious Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
I'm totally jealous because if you're in the middle of
a field a Tennessee, that means you're on a crime scene.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Listen, I am so excited. The eight year old me
can hardly stand it because today I'm going to go
to the ambush site of Sheriff Buford Pusser and his
wife Pauline, and it's just going to be a tremendous
event for me. It's kind of a full circle moment.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well, well, you know what, Wait a minute, let's say
full circle. Does that mean you're at the end of Wait,
a circle's never ending? Because I need you back on
the show big time. I got to figure everything out
about Coburg, and I've got to figure everything out about Diddy.
Can we start with Coburger because he hasn't been getting
enough attention lately, Because Diddy and his sex trafficking is
taken over the world. Excuse me, correction, itty Bitty Diddy.
(01:14):
He's not just a Tootsie roll. He's toos roll Midge.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
When I saw your clip with you undoing the TUTSI
roll rapper, I don't know. I don't know that I've
laughed that hard with you in about twenty years. That
was show classic, show classic.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
My daughter saw it too, and I'm sure you didn't
know what it meant, right, She said, no, Mamma, I
didn't know anything. I know nothing.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Had a girl.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Today's their first day out of school and she's in
the kitchen and watching her making some kind of a concoction.
What is that, honey? It's coffee with a shot of
his key, now a shot of what? Coffee and milk? Now,
John David is perfectly happy for me to make whatever,
any thing for breakfast. It could be Krispy kremes. It
(02:02):
could be my classic egg McMuffin that I make ahead
of time. It could be these little chocolate danishes. Hey, Lucy,
remember when I was on that smoothie Yeah, I was
in a smoothie kick with John David. I was making
him green smoothies out of spinach. And finally it had
(02:23):
been going for like eight or nine months, he said, Mom,
could I have something the green.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Smoothie and so yeah, anyway, now we're on the egg
McMuffin where I put har Vardy keys and eggs on an.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
English muffin with a little bit of Crosier salt. So
he likes that right now. And now I guess I
can move on to coburger. But I'm you can be
in your field in Tennessee. I'm happy being here with
the twins, can we? So what do we need to
talk about first? Coburger? Do we need to go that
verdict before we move on to Diddy?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Oh goodness, Okay, hey, one thing about Diddy. Everybody is
still saying, which they beat into me at the Battery
Women's Center, not to ever say, even though I thought
it a couple of times, why don't you just leave?
Just leave? It's not like that at all, And unless
you've really dealt with it, it's hard to explain. But
(03:18):
I've seen women, literally the one I told you about
that came into a body cast from the hip down.
They with the abuser trying to get me to drop charges.
I didn't, but they I don't know what it is.
They can't leave. Many times it's because the husband or
the partner is making all the money they have children.
(03:39):
People put up with a lot of crap to stay
with their children, right and thinking, well, we need to
keep quote the family together until they what get out
of high school, get out of preschool, get out of whatever,
you know, and so they try to hold it together
or in cash eventurists position. I think it was because
(04:04):
she would lose her whole dream, her dream, her life,
dream of being a recording artist. Like I remember I
told you about when the judge and you know him,
but case she'll remain nameless. I actually think he's dead now.
But that said, I never said a word. I never
breathed a word when a judge plant went on me
right in the mouth. I've never clinched my teeth so
(04:25):
tightly in my whole life. But I never said a
word because I didn't want it to affect what other
judges might perceive of me. I might get taken out
of the trial rotation. I didn't know what that meant
for the victims I had been representing. Would the cases
be handed off to people that really didn't care, that
would just plead it down to you know, we had
(04:47):
there are a lot of prosecutors that don't want to
go to trial. They're afrared they're going to lose. Just
you know what, just go try the case. Guns are
blazon and so they plead them down cheap or they
don't want to be bothered preparing for a trial. It
pains me to say that, but yes, there are those prosecutors,
and I didn't want those cases to land in the
(05:07):
hands of a you know, Lukewarren prosecutor, so I just
kept going. Now, of course one kiss is not on
par with what Cassie Vanteria lived through, but I can
say that she's young. She's nineteen when she meets Combs,
and she wants to be recording artists, and she's a
very talented, very beautiful, very charismatic, and she really thought
(05:31):
Sean Combs could ruin her career. And guess what he could,
so she put up with it.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Let's talk about the other reality.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
If you look perfect, if you do exactly what he
says to do, and he still beats you, what is
he going to do if you leave him, if you
embarrass him, if you go against him. That's what he's
also telling you every day. Where are you going that
he can't reach you? He owns the apartment, he has
(05:59):
the ever taking you places. You're gonna run to your mom.
Your mom's now not safe. I mean, you're caught in
this horrible trap.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
When I found out he started cassif In Terra's mother
her mother, and you know, they didn't have two Nichols
to rub together. It reminds me of mother and daddy
trying to scrape together our tuition to go to Mercery
University between her working and yes, she was the CFO
of a canning lanty and she never did, you know,
(06:34):
want to talk about this, but they made the cans
for bud was her or was it perhaps? And you
know several other soft drinks. But you know, we had
to quit going to the corner store because they started
selling beer. We could not go in the corner store
again anyway. So that was that's the family secret. That
they also made eb ur Kans. I think you was.
(06:55):
She had the longest hours and it was about a
forty minute drive from home. My dad was working Norfolk Southern.
They worked so hard to put us through, all three
of us through Mercy University. And my brother was on
the extended land, so he and my sister, he's about
four years older than her, graduated at the same tide,
(07:17):
and somehow he was the one that ended up with
a fancy house on a golf course. But anyway, that happened.
But I'm thinking about how Cassie's mother and father had
to go take out a home equity loan on their
home to get twenty thousand dollars to pay Sean Combs
(07:38):
when he had beaten Cassie Ventura loose. He are you listening.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
What?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
You don't ever want to end up with a guy
who holds something over you. I don't care what it is,
your career, your job, the payment on your car. No,
you can do all that on your own. You do
not need a man to do any of that for you.
She already knows this, and she's been hearing this. It's
sick that shit could walk. But they had to put
(08:06):
a get a home equity loan because Sean Colmes had
explicit videos of her without her clothes on and was
threatening to release one I think on Christmas and one
of the day after Christmas or some evil plan like that,
and he had beaten her. Now he was claiming he
(08:27):
wanted to be recouped for her training whatever, and they
wired to him through his accountant. That's where the Rico
case is going to be proven, right there, using your
company employees to carry out a crime. And he sent
the money back. But it doesn't matter. Once you have
extorted someone, once you have blackmailed someone and you took
(08:51):
the money, it doesn't matter if you cash a check
or throw it out the window. The deed is done.
It's over. You can't take it back. He extorted money
from Cassie Ventira's mother, who was totally broke. And don't
you know, Cheryl, They thought, oh, she she got the
lottery tickets, she got the golden ring by hooking up,
(09:13):
meeting up with Sean Combs. He's gonna be her future.
And you know what a horrible disappointment and embarrassment it
must have been for Cassie Interior to tell her mother.
This is really what's happening.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
What they're showing is every single person in his sphere
is telling you he is violent, he's manipulative, he is cunning.
He's somebody that's going to be revengeful. That's a dangerous person.
And so you're talking about not just Cassie and her mama,
(09:47):
You're talking about other rappers. You're talking about people close
to him, other employees that have seen this behavior.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Well, the wit culminated with Kid Cuddy on the stand,
who I'd just say he's very I've always liked Cuddy.
He's very, very talented. He's also charismatic, but when he's
not on camera, he seems kind of humble acting. I
don't know if that's real or not. That's just how
he struck me a couple of times. And he's often
talked about growing up, having depression and things he went
(10:21):
through growing up. He did not have an easy youth,
to put it mildly, to have his car molotogged. Now,
I don't know if you remember. Right before I left
the DA's office to start Court TV. To start at
Court TV, I was working on DPP, a death penalty
(10:41):
case where two gangs sets. What is that? That's the
women that date the men in the gang were warring
over some clothes, yes, clotts, clothes, and they got the
gang members involved, and some male gang members made molotavs
(11:03):
and went to the apartment. It was a two story
apartment of the set queen all right, and the inside
the apartment on the second floor were two infant I
think they were both girls, infant girls. I think they
were twins. Still in like to lay out there were
(11:23):
that tiny newborns. They make the molotaph and before they
throw it in the window, they actually screamed out, let's
fry them babies, and they did. The children. The babies
did not die of smoke inhalation. They burned to death,
which I got to tell you is I think the
(11:44):
worst way to die anyway. That's when I was trying well.
I did create a specialty in the study of arson
and prosecuting arsens, which are very very technical different You
have to first show that a crime even occurred, that
this fire was signed an accident. Then even though all
(12:07):
the evidence is burned and gone, you have to prove
who did it. So it was a real challenge for
me and I liked that. But I learned then a
lot about molotab With my other arsens had been other
accelerants that other types of arsons. They're extremely unpredictable. If
anything goes wrong, you end up burning other people that
(12:29):
you may not have intended to burn, and the victim
will burn immediately. But a Malovatov was thrown onto the
car of kid Cuddy, who was dating Cassie Ventura and
a month before the car bomb, Sean comes the scent
(12:50):
is going to blow up Cuddy's car, and then a
month later, bam, the car blew up with a Molotov.
So it's just like Scott Peterson. I don't know what
if it's at Gearagoes connection, but Scott Peterson says it says,
my first Christmas without my wife, she's dead. And two
(13:12):
weeks later, bam, it was his first Christmas without his wife.
She was deck because he killed her. Or like j
Simpson and his clairvoyant dream that he killed Nicole Brown,
yeah he did. So here we've got Shawn Holmes having
a clairvoyant moment, like three weeks before that he was
gonna blow up kick cut, his car is gonna blow up,
(13:33):
and then it did.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
And especially that unique of a thing.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Not somebody's gonna jump you, somebody's gonna you know, steal
your money, but your car is gonna blow up.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And you know he.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Also broke into his house. So again, you want to
talk about something that's gonna throw you off a little bit.
You get a phone call that, hey, Shawn Holmes is
inside your house, like you're just waiting there, on me.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
He broke in to confront Cuddy and he went in there,
and I was doing a hit last night with Harvey Levin.
We're extremely different kind of people, but I really like Levin.
You know, he started, he founded and runs TMZ, the
(14:19):
thirty Miles Zone, which I love TMZ. But he's also
a lawyer. He did not just fall off the turnip truck.
So he's doing he's got a to b show. I
something the trial of I don't even know the name
of it, maybe the Trial of Diddy. But Takapina was
on there, who for a moment flirted with the idea
of representing Comes. I had a couple other people who
(14:43):
were all so great. But anyway, somebody said, I think
it was Levin that Comes. I already knew. Comes went
in there and was just sitting there like the perf
he is. Why do you go to somebody's house and
just sit there. It was at Christmas time, and he
penned up a bunch of Chanel bags that were under
the Christmas tree, apparently for Cassie. From Cudding to Cassie.
(15:06):
I guess this is what I heard last night, to
see what Cuddy was giving her for Christmas and was
just sitting there waiting. After that, the car bomb happened.
Then we heard about him taking off the shoot shug night.
I mean, it just goes on. This guy is such
a thug, and people keep saying, Oh, he may be jellous,
he may be brutaling to be a ship. But has
(15:26):
the state proven in their case? Yes, yes, may have.
Everybody keeps talking about how difficult it is to prove
a Rico case. It's not rico. Racketeering in a criminal
organization is just think of the Sopranos. I was living
all alone up in New York at that time, and
I would always make a big pot of collar greens
(15:49):
on Sunday night, and nobody would eat collar greens in
New York, you know where. I would have to buy
my collar greens at the pet store because I found
out that they feed them to iguanas. Yes, so I
get me a big back a car greens at a
pet store and cook them and watched the price. I
(16:09):
was so lonely up there, and so that's something I'll
look forward to, because you know, I've never really watched TV,
believe it or not, but I would watch that anyway.
Tony Soprano was the head of the snake, the snake
being the criminal enterprise. And it's a loose confederation, right.
It's not like they're getting a payroll check with the
(16:31):
taxes deduction. That's that's not happening. It's like Uncle Paul
did the bucks, and this one ran a ship club,
and that one wandered money, and this one sold shrugs,
and that one stole TVs off the back of trucks,
and that one killed so and so lukely confederated. Half
of them didn't know what the other one was doing,
and they all answered to Soprano. Same thing here. That's
(16:54):
what it is. The accountant got the money, extorted the
money from Cassie Inturvor's mom, and sent an email instructions
about how to wire the extorted floods idiot, okay. And
then you have another bodyguard that physically chased down Cassivcenturro.
It physically dragged her back to combs. Then you've got
(17:17):
the assistant that got immunity to testify about having to
go buy ecstasy and other drugs for seawn comes. And
then you got another one to do this, and another
one did that, and another one set up the Freaknent
and the freak Offs and another woman got the drugs
under a pseudonym Frank Blat. I mean, all these people
(17:38):
another one arranged for the sex workers, come across state lines.
It's just, you know, all these people together are propping it.
Did it? That's what a criminal enterprise is. Bam, there
you go, done, proven.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And don't you think somebody has talked, because you and
I have said over and over, the first one to
talk gets the deal. I think somebody's coming up that
they're not counting on.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, I'm wondering if it's Christina Korum, his right hand woman.
He was his Elaine Maxwell to Epstein. Quorum was to Combs,
So I'm wondering, yeah, if they could turn her. But
the two assistants have testified, and both of them were
(18:25):
going to take the fifth, but the judge granted them
immunity so they could testify to that limited you know
fact scenario. I mean, if you find out whether they
robbed a bank or killed somebody, they can be prosecuted,
but for what they testify to, they cannot be prosecuted.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
How could a beautiful, young first grade teacher be stabbed
twenty times? Including in the bat allegedly die of suicide. Yes,
that was the medical examiner's official ruling after a closed meeting.
He first named it a homicide. Why what happened to
Ellen Greenberg? A huge American miscarriage of justice. For an
(19:11):
in depth look at the facts, see what Happened to Ellen?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
On Amazon?
Speaker 5 (19:18):
All proceeds to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
So, Nathy, what in the world are your faults?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
So Coburger, Well, okay, they're climbing a quote alternative purple.
That's what they're calling the quote as to some other
dude did it defense? Sod sod d some O the
dude did it. Now here's the thing about some of
the duw did it defense? And I countered this in
a theorial rape case where the defense there was a
(19:52):
great defense. Attorney two tried to do something in admissibles.
The judge wouldn't want him, but he wanted to bring
in statistics about how many people have been raped in
that neighborhood, in that area, and that they couldn't all
be this perp, and therefore there was another rapist out there,
and therefore there was an alternative purp. Okay, some of
the do do it. But you can't as a defense
(20:15):
blame a phantom. You can't bring his statistics like that
because they, you know, don't bear directly on the case.
In Steve, you can't just claim, Hey, for instance, you
know there was that other home invader that happened a
few months before the murders where there were I think
it was three girls and a double two story structure
(20:38):
not far away that came in dressed in black, wearing
a mask and scared them, and the victim punched him
in the stomach, kicked him in the stomach and he
ran remember, and it sounded just like Coburger. They co
claim that's the killer, but it's a phantom. There's nobody
to connect to that. It may be enough that actually
(21:01):
for the judge to allow it, but for all I know,
that could have been Coburger too, So they may not
want to pick that one because if it were me,
I decided bring that on in because I think that
was your guy. I'll get it a shivelar and transaction
on there.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
Ruria.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
So anyway, let's just let's say some other dude did it. Okay,
so mister Eggs did it. How lucky is mister eggs
that Brian Koburger comes along driving the same car, driving
around the same time, has bushy eyebrows, his cell phone
ping is hidden, he decides randomly, for no reason, to
(21:40):
put his phone on airplane mode.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
He has no alibi.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I mean, what a lucky sob that guy is the DNA.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
It's the Clinton and the DNA.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I mean, wow, how.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
Did the some are the dude somehow commit the crime
with a knife that was handled by Brian Coburger combined
with everything else you just said.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
But here's the most recent wrinkle. Dateline Great show got
a hold of some documents from inside the investigation, and
it was a highly viewed program, and they showed a
(22:27):
lot of stuff nobody's ever seen before, including some footage
that looks like Coburger's car, and they pieced together a
story that was very, very convincing. Now the defense is
arguing that because of that, they need a trial delay, right,
(22:49):
and the families the victims are going berserk? Do you
blame them?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
So?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
I don't know if the judge's going to grant it
or not because of the Dateline special, but I know
right now they're on a rampage because they're trying to
find out who leaked. Somebody within either the defense or
the state leaked that information. For all I know, it
(23:18):
could be anybody from a lead attorney to a lead investigator,
to somebody that was making copies, to somebody that took
the stuff to the mailbox to send it as discovery.
It could be anybody. It could be somebody at Kinkos
for all I know. But somebody within the investigation, either
primarily or tangentially connected to the investigation, has leaked to Dateline,
(23:41):
and Dateline intimated they had a lot more stuff. Well,
that's not good for the case. It's great for Dateline,
but I don't know that a single show is going
to be enough to cause another delay when it's already
been over three years. It'll be just one more question
for the jury I'm boid to hire. Did you see
the Dateline piece? So I don't know how that's going
(24:04):
to shake out, but right now there's grounds for another delay.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
And you know, I don't know how you feel about
this part, but for me, words matter, and when something
is added and it almost is intentional to make something worse,
that's not necessary. First of all, this is a tragedy
it is something that town will never recover from, that
(24:31):
college will ever be associated with this just tragic event.
But when they start talking about Ethan specifically and his
legs being carved.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
But wait, that wasn't true, wasn't No, There's.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
No way that's true, because again that brings up this
image carving. You're either talking about a word or you're
talking about some little systematic you know, over and over
and over. I have no doubt he was stabbed in
the legs. I mean he was asleep, he was face down.
I have no doubt that happened. But the word carved
(25:08):
is one of those things that somebody whoever originally said
that should be taken a task.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
I agree. You know you mentioned something about the school
will never get out from under that shadow. I mean
it will go on by Tom. For instance, FSU people
still talk about the cay Omega Creek murders because of
Ted Bundy. It comes up all the time, and don't
(25:35):
you know, just the admissions team in FSU just shudders
every time. But he talks about that. But you know,
it sticks to a skill like as you know, I
went to Mercy University for undergrad and law school, but
then I also went to NYU to get another degree
in constitutional criminal law, and at the time there was
(25:55):
a big wave of suicides at NYU and NYU for
whatever reason, we'll never get away from that.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
There.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
People still talk about the number of suicides at NYU.
So what something like that happens. There's a stigma attached
to it. I mean, I don't know. Just as recently
as twenty twenty four, two students died NYU two days apart,
(26:28):
allegedly by suicide, and there's apparently some I don't know,
and not a precipice but an open a trim at NYU,
and people have jumped from it. People just continue talking
about it. It's something I think in the library.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, it's horrifying.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
And you know you've got again words matter, facts matter.
You've got four families that are sitting there blasted by
close this statement that comes from whoever it comes from.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Okay, yeah, I gotta do. You just ruined everything from me.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Hey, listen, I got to end on something happeny. Now
that it's summertime, you and the children have got to
come and see the new Training Center for the Wildlife
CSI Academy at Lake Tobias Wildlife Park. We are going
to be able to do law enforcement training inside a zoo.
(27:27):
And let me tell you something, Nancy, They've got a
brand new baby giraffe you can bottle feed.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Okay, where is this in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Lake Tobias Wildlife Park?
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Oh, my goodness, with the baby giraffe.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
They have partnered with us. Oh, you won't believe what
all they have. It is the most amazing, beautiful place
you've ever seen. And Jenna, who helped get all this
started and get us all squared away to do these trainings.
She grew up inside the zoo. Her family's home is
(28:01):
literally inside a zoo.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Can you believe that? What a great childhood.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I can't wait to get y'all up there. But listen,
I gotta go. I got an ambush site to look at.
But I love you and I'll talk to you soon, okay.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
By dear
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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