On today’s CRU, Sheryl McCollum and Nancy Grace discuss the gruesome details regarding the Kansas moms, Veronica Butler and Jilian Kelley, whose bodies were found in a chest freezer buried in a cow pasture. They discuss the chilling details, suspect behaviors, and the meticulous investigation that followed.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup with a ‘toast to crown royal’
- (2:00) Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Watch For Free on Merit Street Media
- (2:50) Latest on Kansas moms - bodies found in a chest freezer
- (7:00) Analysis of suspects' behavior before and after the crime
- (11:00) Evidence used is discussed
- (20:30) Possible stereotypes during trial
- (25:00) “That was not hot blood. They were not angry in the moment about custody of a child. They weren't angry. They were cool, calculated, cold when they dug that hole when they got that freezer chest and put it down in there. To put these two mothers leaving six children behind with a life sentence of life without mommy.”
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to the crime round Up, y'all. I was on
Merritt The Street Crime Stories.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
With Nancy Gray's Wednesday night.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I about had a full blown laughing attack.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Let me tell you what happened.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Another guest was talking very intellectual, very clear, very concise,
and then I hear him say, Nancy, I'm talking about
the C word. I was like a fifth grader. I
almost just started cracking up. And Nancy her face was
so classic. She just went deadpand and was looking like,
(00:46):
are you kidding me? And then he said I'm talking
about cannabis and she went, well, that ain't where I
thought you were going.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Well then I just.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Lost it, just cracked up. That was so awesome, Nancy.
It was hilarious. And your face, if I could have
captured it, that would be my screen saver for you
because you were like, I know, he is not fixing
a bust out with the sea word of all people.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I believe it said something like, well that when you
said the sea word, that's not the word that immediately
came to mind.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
But that said, but that said, we're going to move on.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
And you know what, Cheryl, what's so funny about it
is when I started prosecuting. I did not curse, but
I had to say so many you know, repeat what
defendant said and statements at on location that pretty soon
I was saying it all, Cheryl, say it all.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It said, very bad habit. I'm surprised.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So now you know when I had the twins, was
it sixteen years ago? I swore off cursing cold turkey
in front of them. But I try to be a
better person, Cheryl, I really do every day. What were
we talking about? Were we talking about Diddy?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
We got some updates? What in the world?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Cheryl, I have something very
important to you to tell you.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Some may call it a fashion felony. I do not.
I wore a shirt on the show tonight.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Excuse me the program that is literally the American flag.
It is a shirt made of the American flag and
the Constitution.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Really, yeah, you don't find that just anywhere. Okay, right,
that sounds like a fantastic shirt.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well you'll have to tune into Merritt Street Media to
see it or YouTube.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Count on that.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Okay, I guess you're about to get tuned up on
what Diddy are Kansas moms.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Let's talk about Kansas moms because they have an update
now again. You and I talked about this over and over,
on and off, and one thing you and I both
agreed on.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Where they were tortured.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Jilly and Kelly and Veronica Butler we now know were
put inside of a freezer.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
They were stuffed in a freezer. Because how the two
grown women fit mothers, I might add, fit in a freezer?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
A freezer?
Speaker 3 (03:24):
How does that happen? They were stuffed in there. They
had to be folded over or contorted in one way
or the other. And here is my question. And I
went round and round with doctor Kendall Crowns. You know
how much I hate to argue with a medical examiner
because it's a whole another language. They know what they're
talking about. And doctor Crowns has performed, oh my Stars,
(03:47):
ten thousand autopsies about how you could tell if the
moms were alive when they were put in the ice chest.
So they had to had to contort the bodies. And
it reminds me of Oh, this was the daughter from Hell.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
H E. L. Heather. What's her last name? Heather? Heather, Heather?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
She her mother is this very articulate, sophisticated woman that
had done everything for her daughter, best school's best everything.
I think she may have been a professor. So they
had a horrible relationship because the daughter's a helli and
it starts with Heather Mac.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It came to me as in Mac and cheese, Heather Mac.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And I'm not sneaking on my iPad like some people
on the program right now, Yeah, you know who you are,
Cheryl Heather Mac.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So she raised the daughter. Ever since the daughter was little.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
She would hit the mom, brate the mom, yell at
the mom anyway. So the mom's trying to repair the
relationship and she takes the daughter to a five star
resort in Bali, Okay Bally, and they get into an
argument because up pomps the girl's boyfriend good for nothing,
(05:12):
I might add, and the boyfriend and Heather Mack murder
the mother, murder her and stuff her in a suitcase
and leave the mother her mother out where the taxis
come along like somebody left a piece of luggage. It
was a roller board and no one thought anything of
(05:32):
it until blood started coming out of the roller board.
My point, not just one, but two women do not
get quote put in an ice chest. They have to
get smashed and folded over and crunched. And my fear
is that they were not quite dead when they were
(05:53):
put in the ice chest and buried ten to fifteen
feet below the surface of a cow pasture. Then they
may have been still alive, unconscious, but alive, because we
know that they were brutally attacked when they were carjacked.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Because there's a giant.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Pool of blood, a copious amount of blood. Get this, Cheryl,
These perps actually brought kitty litter and put it on
the blood. There was so much blood to soak up
the liquid. As a journey, you may consider and the
judge will instruct you on this verbatim as I'm telling
(06:32):
you that you may consider the defendants before the defendant's
behavior before, during, and after the crime, before, during, and
after the crime. You think they just dug that fifteen
foot hole, right, No, that was dug and waiting. That
(06:53):
is premeditation, malice, a forethought, Cheryl.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
When you're talking about moving a freezer from the house
or the garage to the barn.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
To this cow pasture.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It was a two day excavation, so you know they
were meticulous and what they were doing, they were thoughtful.
In the process, and so you know you've got one
of the folks.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Guys.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
He made some statements, Nancy that I'm telling you you
would blow up.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
And have for God and country. I want talking.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
He asked a buddy how long would DNA last on
clothes in the dirt?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
And then listen to this part. He wasn't done in
the dirt. How long does DNA last in the dirt?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
I can get this part or something like, hey, man,
have you seen Jurassic Park?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
But he ain't done. He adds this part, and you're
gonna love this.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
In the dirt fifteen feet deep, he says. He's that clear.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
He knew how deep that hole was before they found them.
That's pretty damning. And then he asked that same friend, Hey,
how can you get your wife and kids to Mexico.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So my thing to mister Paul Geis would be, you're worried.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
About DNA on clothing, but you have two murder victims
in a freezer on land. You're connected to your cell
phone connects you to the other four people. I mean,
the DNA is the least of your concern. We can
put you there without DNA, sir.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You know another thing he did and I love this
so much. When the LA Law Enforcement came to speak
to him the first time, based on statements made by
relatives and friends that Gryce was guys was hanging around
at the time that women went missing. He had a
(08:51):
bandage on his hand, and he said he told one
story that he was working on his truck. Then when
he was asked by another person, he said, oh, I
was putting up a fence. Now, unless he was putting
up a fence around his truck, then he's.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Got a problem.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
You know, you start asking people, Hey, how do I
get everybody that I love to Mexico? And you start saying, hey,
how long does DNA last in dirt fifteen feet deep?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
That is dog gone near a confession to me, I'm
just wondering.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I hate the other things that were buried in the
ice chest, clothing and that they were very clear to
say did not belong to either of the victims of
Veronica or Jillian, which means that had to be their clothing.
And I wonder if it's going to and it was stained,
(09:44):
I wonder if it's going to match up to them
where he hurt his hand and this guy, you know,
another thing about this guy I would be looking at him,
even though I think Grandma is the root of the evil.
I would be looking at him, and I'll tell you why,
because he's the weak link. He's the weak sister in
(10:07):
this scenario. He's the one that wrote the manifesto. I
believe that says I am not a citizen and I
am not a citizen of the US government.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I love that part.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
And how I am a free living soul. Some craziness
like that, refusing to accept the authority and the jurisdiction
of the country in which he lives. You know these
knights that run through the woods and have keggers, that's him.
So he's the one worried about getting his family in
Mexico and his DNA being in dirt.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
And how long will it last? Forever?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Man, that's how long. So that's the one I would
go for. I would go and shot a cracking. But
here's the problem. Here's the problem. I also wouldn't take
a plea. You don't need a play. You don't need
one to rat on the other. Because I think they
should all steal in the same pot together.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
They should all be tried together. And now, and there's a.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Deep heem there's a death on the case, it can't.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Be tried together about the clothing. If I hurt my hand.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
However, I heard it at the farm or Durna murder,
and I got my own blood on my shirt. I
can still keep that shirt because I'm going to make
up what happened to my hand. It was on the farm.
I think he's worried that there's blood spider on him
from the victims, which is the reason he threw his
own shirt in that same hole.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
But even if that is the case, is DNA will
still be on the shirt. Hey, I was speaking to
doctor Kendall Crowns, and we had discussed before we knew
that they were in ash chest freezer. As they're saying,
whether you could tell if they were dead or alive
when buried, if there was dirt in their nasal passes,
their mouths, on their tongue and their throat, even down
(11:56):
in their lungs.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
But now we won't know that.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
He at first said he would not be able to
tell if they suffocated in the ice chest in the
excuse me, chest freezer. But think about it, Cheryl, I
think you can tell because unless the blow they sustained
at the time of the carjacking with the hammer, I believe,
since part of the hammer was found on the road
near the blood. If they didn't die from that blow,
(12:23):
let's think this thing through. You'd be able to tell
if they were stabbed, shot, bludgeoned, dead, manual or ligature strangulation.
But if all of those are ruled out, and they
died of asphyxiation with no bruising to the mouth, the lips,
the nose, no blood in the mouth where they bit
(12:47):
their tongue or the inside of their mouth.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Through process of elimination.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
I would argue to a jury they were in fact
alive at the time they were put in that ice chest.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Well, you know the other things that were found, the
duct tape, the knife, the electrical cord, the stun gun
and slash flashlight. Again, all of those things to me
suggest they were bound. I mean, to me, what happened
before they were put in that chest is very clear.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I think they were bound.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
They were gagged, they were tied up, they were stunned,
they were stabbed. I think it was a done deal
before they got in that freezer, and that's why there
was blood everywhere.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Also, they found Oh, how would I say, packing straps. Now,
have you ever been behind a truck on the interstate
and they've got a crap ton of stuff in the
bed like they're moving and they have it kind of
like the next generation Bungee cords, big straps to hold.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
It all in.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Those were in there. I don't know if those were
bloody or stained or not, but I'm trying to figure
out what were they doing with those straps.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That's how they moved the freezer exactly to the pit, yes,
and then they probably kept it on there so that
the lid.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Couldn't be opened, and they just pitched it all in there.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
The land owner, don't you know, he's going to tell
all he knows. He doesn't want to be thrown in
with the others, right, So I wonder what he can
tell us He didn't notice.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
There was a big hole in his cow pasture.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
And then they covered it in hey, and they made sure,
you know that there wouldn't be any animal activity.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
They made it just that deep.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
This wasn't a ten minute gig either. This took some
time to pull off in the middle of the day.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
I'm just wondering about freezers, you know, That's what I
gave my husband for Christmas a freezer enjoy so I
can know my frozen stuff in it out in the garage.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Every time I want a home appliance. That's what he
gets for his birthday. Birthday. Can I tell you what
we should give marital advice? You and I? We should
do those camps.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Hey, wait a minute, I've got really good one. One year,
I grew up in a little Methodist church and it
wasn't even the city of Megan's rural bib County, all right,
And there was this.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Picture of Christ on the wall, and it's of him.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
In a white robe and he's knocking at a door.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I know you've seen it, Cheryl. Oh, I've seen it,
of course, honey.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
So I wanted the twins to have pictures paintings of
Christ in their bedrooms. So I got one from John
David of Christ walking on the water.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Later I got him that, but first it was originally
the one of Christ knocking on a door.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
It was davis Christmas gift, trying to sit about to die.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Oh no, it's very symbolic anyways, still hanging it.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Actually it's in our living room now, but it's no
messages whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
No message. Whatever I want is what I give him
for his birthday. It's awesome. Boor die, ladies, You're welcome.
There's genius in that.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Deep, deep genius. Back to the freezer. I don't know
this about freezers, but I know it about cars. I
know it about all sorts of vehicles. Where is the
VEN number? And they have them for dishwashers. So is
there a way I can trace this freezer back to
the owner if it has let's just call it a
VEN number, a manufacturing number?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
What about that, Cheryl? Absolutely, but you would also have
common a void space.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
And if these folks act that as quickly and haphazard
as they did at the actual crime scene and the
secondary scene, then I tell you there is a void
in somebody's garage or house where they have not cleaned it.
It's obvious there was a large item here because there's boxes.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
And stuff all around it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
You're going to see the dust, You're going to see
things that were up under it, that are behind it.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It's going to be obvious.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
And then these people had meetings in their house. I
guarantee you there were multiple witnesses that saw this freezer
wherever it used to be.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Another thing that was found. Okay, we said clothing with bloodstains,
including two sweatshirts, t shirts, cloth gloves, and you know
the inside of those gloves is they're filled with the
DNA of whoever was wearing them. A black k bar knife,
a fixed blade knife in sheath, and duct tape. I
(17:41):
love duct tape, Cheryl McCollum, because it's a perfect conduit
for DNA and fingerprints. Nothing better than duct tape to
get your fingerprints.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
It's a beautiful thing. A beauty is.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
By putting the victims and these other items and the
clothing inside that freezer and shutting it actually preserved it.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Eugenius Paul Grice. He is going to sing like a canary.
I'm just telling you, but I don't want him to
plead out. I don't think anybody should get a cheap plea.
This grandma, how what does she have some kind of
mind control? Yeah, you can look at Grice until he's
gonna crack.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
He's gonna crack totally.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
He wasn't one of the original misfits either, like he
came late to the party.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
He is now again.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
He was arrested last So not only is he the
weak link law enforcement knows it, and sadly, I think
Paul knows it.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Hey, I've got a question for you to take with
you over the weekend and ponder deep in your heart. Okay,
why does everything happen at Walmart? Because purchase the two
cell phones and another device?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
What is the device at a wall?
Speaker 3 (19:00):
And you know they've got her on video just like
a taught mom. Bey, she's on Vidia braun a couple
of eighteen packs of beer.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
But remember she bought the cell phones.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
She bought the cell phones, went straight home and started
charging them, all of them.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I'm not judging, But what is this guy's beard?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
It looks like he put an old batment on his chin?
I mean, are think it? Lett him have that front
of the jury.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
That's got to go. I think it's the best thing.
Let him see it.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
If they have them all spiffed up for trial. You know,
I would have to resort to finding a reason to
show the book in photo. I'd find a reason. Do
not worry about that, do not wear your pretty ahead.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I will find a reason.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
To get this muck shot in because he's totally unkempt.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
He looks like he looks like a wild Man. You
know the twins, and I love this.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Of course, David thinks for crazy, there is some sort
of a world event where you compete for the best
beard and mustache. Yes they're beard what Yeah, yeah, they're
they're they look they're amazing.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
They are amazing.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Not what I'm talking about here. No, I'm not against
facial hair. I want to be clear, But what is that.
I mean, it's gonna it's gonna play in to every
stereotype this jury has deep in the recesses of their mind. Amazingly,
he's not the one that comes up with a crazy
(20:34):
manifesto about not being a US a citizen of the
US government. Well, let me just say to read that
out loud to the jury.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
And I want to be real clear, Paul Grice, You're
about to get a front row seat to the US
government in action.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Honey.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
It's going to be more about the Constitution than he
ever wanted to know.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
He might be wearing your shirt, bir it's over with.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I'll go after him myself if he tries to put
on my US Constitution and flag shirt.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
That is not happening.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
You remember when you almost got held in contempt because
you almost got held in contempt because the judge said, tell.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Judge Wade Bresley held me in contempt. This was awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
And we were all sitting there and speaking of the constitution.
You said something. I don't remember. If it was about
the Third Amendment, I don't know, but everybody wasn't up
on it.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Everybody wasn't clear. What is she talking about? Where's she going?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And I don't remember if law enforcement from another place
ate a donut while they were at the scene, I
have no idea.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I don't remember that.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I just remember you telling the judge, sir, if you
look at that book right behind your back and go
to page thirty seven, paragraph toos, it will say.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
How wrong you are.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Oh my god, I remember exactly what it was.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Okay. It started with a million and I remember his name,
Walter Gates.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
He had been beating and molesting young girls since his twenties.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
That I know of, and he was in his sixties. Okay,
so he would particularly beat and molest his own daughters.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
He had thirty five natural children, three five thirty five
natural children. If my memory is not feeling me and
I looked and looked and looked, and found multiple similar
transactions stepdaughters, daughters daughters by various women that lived in
different states. I found them, and why did I find them?
(22:40):
Because his living girlfriend had two little girls, three one
was a teen, and was so desperate to get out
of the house with him. She moved into Section eight
housing project Okay, and they had a beautiful home, but
she did not want to live there. Wow, I wonder
why that left the two little sisters there. One was
(23:01):
about three and one was about seven. He owned almost
all the horse drawn carriage, tourist trade and limo.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
He had a big limo business here in Atlanta. I remember, yep,
And this.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Is what happened. Ready to go to trial, I had
worked with the victims. The mother was siding with him,
of course, and still living with him. Over the weekend,
the defense attorneys got the two little girls about three
and five, three and seven years old, and got the
little girls to recant. So who's going to be the
(23:35):
witness to the recantation? The lawyer got his law partner
up on the stand to talk about the little girls recanting.
I was so mad that I could achieved an ell
and a half, so I immediately jumped on him on
cross exam, yelling across the courtroom about don't you how
much money are you making off this case?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Your partner's defending it. Now, what's your cut? What is it?
Idred grand retainer? Where do you get out of that
fifty grand? Anyway?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
The judge thought, I was not allowed to cross examine
the defendant on pecuniary interest and the outcome of a trial.
Of course I can so. I He told me and
told me and told me. He kept sitting the jury
out not to ask, and said, okay, okay, I want
to ask.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So the jury came back here like everything got real quiet.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I went, is it sure you're making seventy five grand
off this case if you win? And he helped me
and contempt and you would have died laughing if you
could say, if you could have seen all the public defenders,
it's like they had radar.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
They all came running.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
From all over the courthouse to fill up the courtroom
to see me have to get fingerprinted and handcuf girl.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
We all heard about it. Everybody was there. It was
one of those banner days. There's no doubt. And listen,
you know again, I got to watch you so often
and with this case out of Oklaho you know, I
sometimes try to think, what would Nancy say, what direction
would she go in? And with this case, it's one
(25:09):
thing what happened on the side of that road, Nancy.
But to me, the whole closing argument is in that
ice freezer.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
You're so right, Cheryl, and this is why that was
not hot blood. They were not angry in the moment
about custody of a child.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
They weren't angry.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
They were cool, calculated cold when they dug that hole,
when they got that freezer chest and put it down
in there, to put these two mothers, leaving six children
behind with a life sentence of life without mommy, and
(25:49):
just imagine there possible last moments alive, realizing they were
trapped in a nice chest, crunched up on each other
the dark, running out of air.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And y'all that's why she's the queen of the rodeo. Nancy.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Thank you so much for the crime roundup. Have a
fabulous Memorial Day, y'all. Be safe, don't drink and drive
and I will see you at crime.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Are not to drink?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Are you insane?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Is drinking and driving in these parts that is not happening.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Everybody listening y'all make a plan now.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Who's going to drive you to and from your activities
on Memorial Day? If the plan will save you a
whole lot of heart ache, that's all I'm doing well.
I love you dearly and I appreciate your idios.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Friends.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is the Crime Roundup with
Zonesaven
Welcome to the crime round Up, y'all. I was on
Merritt The Street Crime Stories.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
With Nancy Gray's Wednesday night.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I about had a full blown laughing attack.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Let me tell you what happened.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Another guest was talking very intellectual, very clear, very concise,
and then I hear him say, Nancy, I'm talking about
the C word. I was like a fifth grader. I
almost just started cracking up. And Nancy her face was
so classic. She just went deadpand and was looking like,
(00:46):
are you kidding me? And then he said I'm talking
about cannabis and she went, well, that ain't where I
thought you were going.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Well then I just.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Lost it, just cracked up. That was so awesome, Nancy.
It was hilarious. And your face, if I could have
captured it, that would be my screen saver for you
because you were like, I know, he is not fixing
a bust out with the sea word of all people.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I believe it said something like, well that when you
said the sea word, that's not the word that immediately
came to mind.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
But that said, but that said, we're going to move on.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
And you know what, Cheryl, what's so funny about it
is when I started prosecuting. I did not curse, but
I had to say so many you know, repeat what
defendant said and statements at on location that pretty soon
I was saying it all, Cheryl, say it all.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It said, very bad habit. I'm surprised.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So now you know when I had the twins, was
it sixteen years ago? I swore off cursing cold turkey
in front of them. But I try to be a
better person, Cheryl, I really do every day. What were
we talking about? Were we talking about Diddy?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
We got some updates? What in the world?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Cheryl, I have something very
important to you to tell you.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Some may call it a fashion felony. I do not.
I wore a shirt on the show tonight.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Excuse me the program that is literally the American flag.
It is a shirt made of the American flag and
the Constitution.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Really, yeah, you don't find that just anywhere. Okay, right,
that sounds like a fantastic shirt.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well you'll have to tune into Merritt Street Media to
see it or YouTube.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Count on that.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Okay, I guess you're about to get tuned up on
what Diddy are Kansas moms.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Let's talk about Kansas moms because they have an update
now again. You and I talked about this over and over,
on and off, and one thing you and I both
agreed on.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Where they were tortured.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Jilly and Kelly and Veronica Butler we now know were
put inside of a freezer.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
They were stuffed in a freezer. Because how the two
grown women fit mothers, I might add, fit in a freezer?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
A freezer?
Speaker 3 (03:24):
How does that happen? They were stuffed in there. They
had to be folded over or contorted in one way
or the other. And here is my question. And I
went round and round with doctor Kendall Crowns. You know
how much I hate to argue with a medical examiner
because it's a whole another language. They know what they're
talking about. And doctor Crowns has performed, oh my Stars,
(03:47):
ten thousand autopsies about how you could tell if the
moms were alive when they were put in the ice chest.
So they had to had to contort the bodies. And
it reminds me of Oh, this was the daughter from Hell.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
H E. L. Heather. What's her last name? Heather? Heather, Heather?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
She her mother is this very articulate, sophisticated woman that
had done everything for her daughter, best school's best everything.
I think she may have been a professor. So they
had a horrible relationship because the daughter's a helli and
it starts with Heather Mac.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It came to me as in Mac and cheese, Heather Mac.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And I'm not sneaking on my iPad like some people
on the program right now, Yeah, you know who you are,
Cheryl Heather Mac.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So she raised the daughter. Ever since the daughter was little.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
She would hit the mom, brate the mom, yell at
the mom anyway. So the mom's trying to repair the
relationship and she takes the daughter to a five star
resort in Bali, Okay Bally, and they get into an
argument because up pomps the girl's boyfriend good for nothing,
(05:12):
I might add, and the boyfriend and Heather Mack murder
the mother, murder her and stuff her in a suitcase
and leave the mother her mother out where the taxis
come along like somebody left a piece of luggage. It
was a roller board and no one thought anything of
(05:32):
it until blood started coming out of the roller board.
My point, not just one, but two women do not
get quote put in an ice chest. They have to
get smashed and folded over and crunched. And my fear
is that they were not quite dead when they were
(05:53):
put in the ice chest and buried ten to fifteen
feet below the surface of a cow pasture. Then they
may have been still alive, unconscious, but alive, because we
know that they were brutally attacked when they were carjacked.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Because there's a giant.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Pool of blood, a copious amount of blood. Get this, Cheryl,
These perps actually brought kitty litter and put it on
the blood. There was so much blood to soak up
the liquid. As a journey, you may consider and the
judge will instruct you on this verbatim as I'm telling
(06:32):
you that you may consider the defendants before the defendant's
behavior before, during, and after the crime, before, during, and
after the crime. You think they just dug that fifteen
foot hole, right, No, that was dug and waiting. That
(06:53):
is premeditation, malice, a forethought, Cheryl.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
When you're talking about moving a freezer from the house
or the garage to the barn.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
To this cow pasture.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It was a two day excavation, so you know they
were meticulous and what they were doing, they were thoughtful.
In the process, and so you know you've got one
of the folks.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Guys.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
He made some statements, Nancy that I'm telling you you
would blow up.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
And have for God and country. I want talking.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
He asked a buddy how long would DNA last on
clothes in the dirt?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
And then listen to this part. He wasn't done in
the dirt. How long does DNA last in the dirt?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
I can get this part or something like, hey, man,
have you seen Jurassic Park?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
But he ain't done. He adds this part, and you're
gonna love this.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
In the dirt fifteen feet deep, he says. He's that clear.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
He knew how deep that hole was before they found them.
That's pretty damning. And then he asked that same friend, Hey,
how can you get your wife and kids to Mexico.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So my thing to mister Paul Geis would be, you're worried.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
About DNA on clothing, but you have two murder victims
in a freezer on land. You're connected to your cell
phone connects you to the other four people. I mean,
the DNA is the least of your concern. We can
put you there without DNA, sir.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You know another thing he did and I love this
so much. When the LA Law Enforcement came to speak
to him the first time, based on statements made by
relatives and friends that Gryce was guys was hanging around
at the time that women went missing. He had a
(08:51):
bandage on his hand, and he said he told one
story that he was working on his truck. Then when
he was asked by another person, he said, oh, I
was putting up a fence. Now, unless he was putting
up a fence around his truck, then he's.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Got a problem.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
You know, you start asking people, Hey, how do I
get everybody that I love to Mexico? And you start saying, hey,
how long does DNA last in dirt fifteen feet deep?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
That is dog gone near a confession to me, I'm
just wondering.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I hate the other things that were buried in the
ice chest, clothing and that they were very clear to
say did not belong to either of the victims of
Veronica or Jillian, which means that had to be their clothing.
And I wonder if it's going to and it was stained,
(09:44):
I wonder if it's going to match up to them
where he hurt his hand and this guy, you know,
another thing about this guy I would be looking at him,
even though I think Grandma is the root of the evil.
I would be looking at him, and I'll tell you why,
because he's the weak link. He's the weak sister in
(10:07):
this scenario. He's the one that wrote the manifesto. I
believe that says I am not a citizen and I
am not a citizen of the US government.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I love that part.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
And how I am a free living soul. Some craziness
like that, refusing to accept the authority and the jurisdiction
of the country in which he lives. You know these
knights that run through the woods and have keggers, that's him.
So he's the one worried about getting his family in
Mexico and his DNA being in dirt.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
And how long will it last? Forever?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Man, that's how long. So that's the one I would
go for. I would go and shot a cracking. But
here's the problem. Here's the problem. I also wouldn't take
a plea. You don't need a play. You don't need
one to rat on the other. Because I think they
should all steal in the same pot together.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
They should all be tried together. And now, and there's a.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Deep heem there's a death on the case, it can't.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Be tried together about the clothing. If I hurt my hand.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
However, I heard it at the farm or Durna murder,
and I got my own blood on my shirt. I
can still keep that shirt because I'm going to make
up what happened to my hand. It was on the farm.
I think he's worried that there's blood spider on him
from the victims, which is the reason he threw his
own shirt in that same hole.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
But even if that is the case, is DNA will
still be on the shirt. Hey, I was speaking to
doctor Kendall Crowns, and we had discussed before we knew
that they were in ash chest freezer. As they're saying,
whether you could tell if they were dead or alive
when buried, if there was dirt in their nasal passes,
their mouths, on their tongue and their throat, even down
(11:56):
in their lungs.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
But now we won't know that.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
He at first said he would not be able to
tell if they suffocated in the ice chest in the
excuse me, chest freezer. But think about it, Cheryl, I
think you can tell because unless the blow they sustained
at the time of the carjacking with the hammer, I believe,
since part of the hammer was found on the road
near the blood. If they didn't die from that blow,
(12:23):
let's think this thing through. You'd be able to tell
if they were stabbed, shot, bludgeoned, dead, manual or ligature strangulation.
But if all of those are ruled out, and they
died of asphyxiation with no bruising to the mouth, the lips,
the nose, no blood in the mouth where they bit
(12:47):
their tongue or the inside of their mouth.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Through process of elimination.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
I would argue to a jury they were in fact
alive at the time they were put in that ice chest.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Well, you know the other things that were found, the
duct tape, the knife, the electrical cord, the stun gun
and slash flashlight. Again, all of those things to me
suggest they were bound. I mean, to me, what happened
before they were put in that chest is very clear.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I think they were bound.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
They were gagged, they were tied up, they were stunned,
they were stabbed. I think it was a done deal
before they got in that freezer, and that's why there
was blood everywhere.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Also, they found Oh, how would I say, packing straps. Now,
have you ever been behind a truck on the interstate
and they've got a crap ton of stuff in the
bed like they're moving and they have it kind of
like the next generation Bungee cords, big straps to hold.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
It all in.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Those were in there. I don't know if those were
bloody or stained or not, but I'm trying to figure
out what were they doing with those straps.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That's how they moved the freezer exactly to the pit, yes,
and then they probably kept it on there so that
the lid.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Couldn't be opened, and they just pitched it all in there.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
The land owner, don't you know, he's going to tell
all he knows. He doesn't want to be thrown in
with the others, right, So I wonder what he can
tell us He didn't notice.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
There was a big hole in his cow pasture.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
And then they covered it in hey, and they made sure,
you know that there wouldn't be any animal activity.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
They made it just that deep.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
This wasn't a ten minute gig either. This took some
time to pull off in the middle of the day.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
I'm just wondering about freezers, you know, That's what I
gave my husband for Christmas a freezer enjoy so I
can know my frozen stuff in it out in the garage.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Every time I want a home appliance. That's what he
gets for his birthday. Birthday. Can I tell you what
we should give marital advice? You and I? We should
do those camps.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Hey, wait a minute, I've got really good one. One year,
I grew up in a little Methodist church and it
wasn't even the city of Megan's rural bib County, all right,
And there was this.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Picture of Christ on the wall, and it's of him.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
In a white robe and he's knocking at a door.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I know you've seen it, Cheryl. Oh, I've seen it,
of course, honey.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
So I wanted the twins to have pictures paintings of
Christ in their bedrooms. So I got one from John
David of Christ walking on the water.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Later I got him that, but first it was originally
the one of Christ knocking on a door.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
It was davis Christmas gift, trying to sit about to die.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Oh no, it's very symbolic anyways, still hanging it.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Actually it's in our living room now, but it's no
messages whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
No message. Whatever I want is what I give him
for his birthday. It's awesome. Boor die, ladies, You're welcome.
There's genius in that.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Deep, deep genius. Back to the freezer. I don't know
this about freezers, but I know it about cars. I
know it about all sorts of vehicles. Where is the
VEN number? And they have them for dishwashers. So is
there a way I can trace this freezer back to
the owner if it has let's just call it a
VEN number, a manufacturing number?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
What about that, Cheryl? Absolutely, but you would also have
common a void space.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
And if these folks act that as quickly and haphazard
as they did at the actual crime scene and the
secondary scene, then I tell you there is a void
in somebody's garage or house where they have not cleaned it.
It's obvious there was a large item here because there's boxes.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
And stuff all around it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
You're going to see the dust, You're going to see
things that were up under it, that are behind it.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It's going to be obvious.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
And then these people had meetings in their house. I
guarantee you there were multiple witnesses that saw this freezer
wherever it used to be.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Another thing that was found. Okay, we said clothing with bloodstains,
including two sweatshirts, t shirts, cloth gloves, and you know
the inside of those gloves is they're filled with the
DNA of whoever was wearing them. A black k bar knife,
a fixed blade knife in sheath, and duct tape. I
(17:41):
love duct tape, Cheryl McCollum, because it's a perfect conduit
for DNA and fingerprints. Nothing better than duct tape to
get your fingerprints.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
It's a beautiful thing. A beauty is.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
By putting the victims and these other items and the
clothing inside that freezer and shutting it actually preserved it.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Eugenius Paul Grice. He is going to sing like a canary.
I'm just telling you, but I don't want him to
plead out. I don't think anybody should get a cheap plea.
This grandma, how what does she have some kind of
mind control? Yeah, you can look at Grice until he's
gonna crack.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
He's gonna crack totally.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
He wasn't one of the original misfits either, like he
came late to the party.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
He is now again.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
He was arrested last So not only is he the
weak link law enforcement knows it, and sadly, I think
Paul knows it.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Hey, I've got a question for you to take with
you over the weekend and ponder deep in your heart. Okay,
why does everything happen at Walmart? Because purchase the two
cell phones and another device?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
What is the device at a wall?
Speaker 3 (19:00):
And you know they've got her on video just like
a taught mom. Bey, she's on Vidia braun a couple
of eighteen packs of beer.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
But remember she bought the cell phones.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
She bought the cell phones, went straight home and started
charging them, all of them.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I'm not judging, But what is this guy's beard?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
It looks like he put an old batment on his chin?
I mean, are think it? Lett him have that front
of the jury.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
That's got to go. I think it's the best thing.
Let him see it.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
If they have them all spiffed up for trial. You know,
I would have to resort to finding a reason to
show the book in photo. I'd find a reason. Do
not worry about that, do not wear your pretty ahead.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I will find a reason.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
To get this muck shot in because he's totally unkempt.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
He looks like he looks like a wild Man. You
know the twins, and I love this.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Of course, David thinks for crazy, there is some sort
of a world event where you compete for the best
beard and mustache. Yes they're beard what Yeah, yeah, they're
they're they look they're amazing.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
They are amazing.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Not what I'm talking about here. No, I'm not against
facial hair. I want to be clear, But what is that.
I mean, it's gonna it's gonna play in to every
stereotype this jury has deep in the recesses of their mind. Amazingly,
he's not the one that comes up with a crazy
(20:34):
manifesto about not being a US a citizen of the
US government. Well, let me just say to read that
out loud to the jury.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
And I want to be real clear, Paul Grice, You're
about to get a front row seat to the US
government in action.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Honey.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
It's going to be more about the Constitution than he
ever wanted to know.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
He might be wearing your shirt, bir it's over with.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I'll go after him myself if he tries to put
on my US Constitution and flag shirt.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
That is not happening.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
You remember when you almost got held in contempt because
you almost got held in contempt because the judge said, tell.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Judge Wade Bresley held me in contempt. This was awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
And we were all sitting there and speaking of the constitution.
You said something. I don't remember. If it was about
the Third Amendment, I don't know, but everybody wasn't up
on it.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Everybody wasn't clear. What is she talking about? Where's she going?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And I don't remember if law enforcement from another place
ate a donut while they were at the scene, I
have no idea.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I don't remember that.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I just remember you telling the judge, sir, if you
look at that book right behind your back and go
to page thirty seven, paragraph toos, it will say.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
How wrong you are.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Oh my god, I remember exactly what it was.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Okay. It started with a million and I remember his name,
Walter Gates.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
He had been beating and molesting young girls since his twenties.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
That I know of, and he was in his sixties. Okay,
so he would particularly beat and molest his own daughters.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
He had thirty five natural children, three five thirty five
natural children. If my memory is not feeling me and
I looked and looked and looked, and found multiple similar
transactions stepdaughters, daughters daughters by various women that lived in
different states. I found them, and why did I find them?
(22:40):
Because his living girlfriend had two little girls, three one
was a teen, and was so desperate to get out
of the house with him. She moved into Section eight
housing project Okay, and they had a beautiful home, but
she did not want to live there. Wow, I wonder
why that left the two little sisters there. One was
(23:01):
about three and one was about seven. He owned almost
all the horse drawn carriage, tourist trade and limo.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
He had a big limo business here in Atlanta. I remember, yep,
And this.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Is what happened. Ready to go to trial, I had
worked with the victims. The mother was siding with him,
of course, and still living with him. Over the weekend,
the defense attorneys got the two little girls about three
and five, three and seven years old, and got the
little girls to recant. So who's going to be the
(23:35):
witness to the recantation? The lawyer got his law partner
up on the stand to talk about the little girls recanting.
I was so mad that I could achieved an ell
and a half, so I immediately jumped on him on
cross exam, yelling across the courtroom about don't you how
much money are you making off this case?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Your partner's defending it. Now, what's your cut? What is it?
Idred grand retainer? Where do you get out of that
fifty grand? Anyway?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
The judge thought, I was not allowed to cross examine
the defendant on pecuniary interest and the outcome of a trial.
Of course I can so. I He told me and
told me and told me. He kept sitting the jury
out not to ask, and said, okay, okay, I want
to ask.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So the jury came back here like everything got real quiet.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I went, is it sure you're making seventy five grand
off this case if you win? And he helped me
and contempt and you would have died laughing if you
could say, if you could have seen all the public defenders,
it's like they had radar.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
They all came running.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
From all over the courthouse to fill up the courtroom
to see me have to get fingerprinted and handcuf girl.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
We all heard about it. Everybody was there. It was
one of those banner days. There's no doubt. And listen,
you know again, I got to watch you so often
and with this case out of Oklaho you know, I
sometimes try to think, what would Nancy say, what direction
would she go in? And with this case, it's one
(25:09):
thing what happened on the side of that road, Nancy.
But to me, the whole closing argument is in that
ice freezer.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
You're so right, Cheryl, and this is why that was
not hot blood. They were not angry in the moment
about custody of a child.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
They weren't angry.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
They were cool, calculated cold when they dug that hole,
when they got that freezer chest and put it down
in there, to put these two mothers, leaving six children
behind with a life sentence of life without mommy, and
(25:49):
just imagine there possible last moments alive, realizing they were
trapped in a nice chest, crunched up on each other
the dark, running out of air.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And y'all that's why she's the queen of the rodeo. Nancy.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Thank you so much for the crime roundup. Have a
fabulous Memorial Day, y'all. Be safe, don't drink and drive
and I will see you at crime.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Are not to drink?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Are you insane?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Is drinking and driving in these parts that is not happening.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Everybody listening y'all make a plan now.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Who's going to drive you to and from your activities
on Memorial Day? If the plan will save you a
whole lot of heart ache, that's all I'm doing well.
I love you dearly and I appreciate your idios.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Friends.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is the Crime Roundup with
Zonesaven
Host
Sheryl McCollum
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com