June 14, 2024 • 36 mins
Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum debate the controversial Karen Read case in today's CRU. They examine the evidence, question the credibility of witnesses, and discuss the potential outcomes of the trial. Nancy and Sheryl highlight the procedural failures of the investigation, the intense public opinion, and the emotional toll on all parties involved. Ultimately Nancy and Sheryl leave the audience with potential outcomes of the trial. Did Karen murder John O’Keefe? Is this a police cover-up?
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (1:00) Sheryl and Nancy discuss the public reactions to Karen Read’s case
- (5:00) Discussion on the state's evidence and witness credibility
- (7:30) Nancy’s opinion on the case
- (9:30) Sheryl argues lead investigators toughness and credibility
- (10:45) Integrity of the prosecutor
- (16:45) Determining the truth
- (22:00) Discussion on the potential outcomes of the trial
- (27:00) Thoughts on Jennifer McCabe
- (34:00) Closing thoughts
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Crime Round Up with Nancy Grace and
Cheryl McCollum. Y'all better hang on to your beds. Today
it is read Karen Reid, troop and productor All morning,
Good morning, Miss Grace. How are you, sugar?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well, I'll tell you what. I'm a little shell shocked.
You know, Cheryl, you and I do not have any
skin in the game, no dog in the fight. I'm
not trying this case. I did not investigate this case.
I am responding to what I see coming out of
the courtroom. And I have never seen well, maybe I have,
and I'm not remembering them. So many bitter people angry
(00:49):
because we have an opinion different than their opinion. I
don't get it.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I don't get it either. And I've never seen a
case where there's no gray. It is team Karen Reid
or team John o'keef and that's it.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, here's what I think the problem is. I think
the state's got very compelling evidence, is strong evidence, but
I think the state's witnesses have some credibility problems. And
as you kept pointing out to me on MSM, which
is hitting YouTube today, when the lead investigator does not
(01:26):
go to the crime scene. That's terrible. That is a huge,
huge dereliction of duty. I mean, before I would take
a case to a trial, and I certainly was not
the lead investigator, I would go and ife all the witnesses,
look for other witnesses, take my own photos, and of
course go the crime scene. I mean that was number one.
(01:48):
So I could understand. And can I tell us, Cheryl
mula Callum, how many times I could trip up a
defense witness because A they were lying and B they
hadn't been to the scene so they didn't know what
they were talking about.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Got to point out, you're not talking about a burglary,
You're talking about the potential murder of a police officer.
And you don't go to the crime scene, and you
don't collect everybody's phone, and you don't go in that house,
and you only interview three people like it's mind boggling
to me that he didn't think he was about to
(02:20):
have some serious credibility issues.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I think another issue is this, although everybody and their
cousin seems to hate police. Now, not me and not you,
I'm sure, not my family, but a lot of people
hate police for various reasons, and some of them justified.
But that said, even though they may be comb be haters,
(02:45):
and they expect a higher degree of behavior, a higher
degree of credibility from a police officer. And I agree
with that because the state and police officers are put
people in jail, so they darn well better be telling
the truth and they better be right, and they better
(03:06):
have done their job. So the anger and the bitterness
when you find out a cop didn't do their job,
did not go to the crime scene, or you suspect
a cop planted evidence, it's a deeper, a much deeper
betrayal than from somebody you don't know. It's almost you
(03:26):
trust them to do the right thing. You believe they're
going to do the right thing, at least do their job,
and when they don't, it's a deeper betrayal. I think
people are feeling that bitterness, specifically over the lead detective,
and because of the lead detective, and because of Proctor
and his highly inappropriate comments about Karen Reid. It's just
(03:49):
put a bad taste in everybody's mouth. Now, as a
trial lawyer, I can compartmentalize and keep my eye on
did she kill him? To hey, Like I've said, don't
expect nouns and priests and virgens to testify for the
state that a going to happen. But you have to
look at what happened. And this is what gets me.
(04:13):
Tell me if I'm wrong, because I mean, I dare
to look at Twitter. Last night I just closed it
up about how you and I have not been following
the case and we don't know about we do and
we have. But when I have a multiple witnesses state
that she said, what did I do? Did I do something?
(04:36):
I mean, do you remember when your sister fell in
the pool, the empty pool? I never once heard you
say did I do that? Did I? Because you didn't?
And I think that's like O. J. Simpson is saying,
if I did it, you didn't do it. Well.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
See that's the problem I have, and that's why I
have equated him with Mark Furman.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
You mean the detective, yes, proctor.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Once you make your mind up that this person is
not credible because they said they didn't use a word,
then they used it, then suddenly he's out there planting evidence.
We are seeing the same thing here. This guy says, well, yeah,
the time's wrong on the warrant, and I didn't go
to the crime scene and I only talked to three people,
(05:26):
and after sixteen hours I had it wrapped up. Nobody's
buying that on a murder of a police officer. So
now they're saying, well, he then had to plant the
tail light, he busted the tail light.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
He cared so little they did a slipshod job, but
he cared enough to frame somebody. I mean, you can't
have both of those.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
You can't have both of those. But here's the lesson
for junior detectives and people coming up. This is what
happens in our world. Nancy. If you lie about one thing,
light about everything, and you can't unring a bell, you've
got twelve people sitting over there, and you've made fun
of suicide, You've made fun of people's medical problems, You've
(06:10):
made fun of women in every derogatory way you can
think of. They have to forgive a lot and say, Okay,
he could be a complete douchebag in his private life.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I'm sorry. Is that some ten of coal legal time?
I'm not familiar with.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It is it's Latin sure, total pricas. So what I'm
saying is, seriously, though, that's what we're expecting that jury
to be able to do to say, hey, maybe I
had somebody in my family commit suicide, and he's wishing
this on this person that he already made his mind
up because she's a whack job his opinion. She's the
(06:50):
sea word that he didn't even want to say in court.
He had to spell it. So that's how bad he
knew that. Look and again, if they forgive that, he
is this ass hat? Okay, great? How can he be
this person in the middle of an investigation Texan high
school friends? He hopes he finds nudes of her and
(07:13):
then releases her medical issues in the most heinous way
and elementary school playground way. But I'm sure everything was
above board in the investigation. I don't think they're going
to buy that.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
No. I think that's the big problem. I think that
the credibility issue with rocked Her is so vast the
state may not be able to overcome it. Now. Do
I think that she murdered O'Keefe. I don't know that
murder is the right charge. I think that she was angry.
(07:50):
Why does she back up for twenty wait how many feet?
At what speed?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah? Twenty four miles an hour?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
She backed up for sixty feet, as I recall that
this is off the top of my head on nearly
one o'clock in the morning, where he was found. She
backed up sixty feet at twenty four mph. Now we
know that's where she was at the time. She backed
(08:18):
up because her data they caught the black box, the
you know, the NAV, the NAV system. It's outside Albert's home,
and that is where the broken tail light, what's left
of it, is found outside his home. Her own NAV
(08:39):
place is herd there at sixty feet backwards at twenty
four miles an hour. I think she was angry. We
know they were having a horrible argument and she backed up.
I don't think she meant to kill him. But when you,
for instance, hold a gun to somebody's head and you
(09:00):
end up pulling the trigger and shooting them, you can't say, yes,
I held the gun up, I was just trying to
scare them. That noe. Under the law, that's still a murder.
I think she was trying to bump him or scare
him and didn't mean to kill him. That's what I
think happened.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
The issue is what's not there. There's no blood there,
there's no injury to him. Where the bumper would have
hit him on his legs or his abdomen or his hips.
Where are the injuries that a car hit him? Most
experts are going to tell you you've got to go about
fifty miles an hour to knock somebody out of their shoes,
(09:42):
not twenty four. Now are there problems? There's problems on
both sides. That's the issue when you do a half
assed investigation, when you make your mind up, Oh this
bitch did it. We're done. You're not done. How many
times Nancy did you send us back? How many times
did you say I need more? We could bring you
(10:04):
a video of the person shooting them, and you'd go,
where's the shellcase? And where's where's a witness? I need
an eyewitness or an air witness. You always want more.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
You're arguing could it would have? Should? I'm just asking
you very simply, do you think she did it?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
I don't know, because they have shown me nothing so far.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Well, Cheryl, if you don't know, if the jury doesn't know,
they have to equit. That's not even grounds from mistrial.
But what do you think of Lally that he claims
red Lally? Excuse me claims? Reid said over and over
I hit him, I head am, I hit him.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Here's what I think. I was spoiled rotten by you.
So when I see the first three or four witnesses
and I'm like, are these prosecution witnesses? They sound like
they're testifying for the defense. It seemed to me that
none of the witnesses right out of the gate were
(11:05):
prepped by the prosecution at all. So at first I
was not impressed what I watched when Proctor was on
the stand. If you noticed, the defense attorney repeatedly asked
questions and the prosecution would say objection, and the judge
would say sustained, but the jury heard it. He walked
(11:25):
them right to it. You don't know the chain of custody.
You said you didn't know the Alberts. Now we know
that you know three. Well, then in about two minutes
he had to admit he knew four of them, and
it asked one to babysit his children. The other one
they were so drunk in their city vehicle that he
left his gun and badging there. So you have created
(11:48):
this whole thing where you have zero integrity, not even
an integrity issue. Mark Furman lied about using one word
this guy has shown every step of the way he
did not do what John O'Keeffe's family deserved. And that's
my problem with the whole thing. I don't think he
(12:10):
will never be able to recover every single case he
has ever been the lead on. They should come back
and demand a review.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Oh did you know I'm hearing rumblings that the Walsh
case is in jeopardy. Remember Anna Walsh? Oh? Yes, murdered
and most likely dismembered, leaving behind her little boys. And
the husband did it the art fraudster. Yeah, I'm getting
rumblings that this may affect that case.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And it should every case he's ever touched. And that's
the problem. And so far I've heard zero evidence that
John O'Keefe was murdered. We hadn't heard it yet. It
may be coming.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Okay, woll whoa whoa WoT cause of death is a
blunt trauma in hypothermia. So you think that blunt trauma
was an accident?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
No, I don't know that. If he fell backwards and
hit the fire hydrant, I don't know. Maybe he slipped
on ice. We don't know. That's the problem. Even the
lead detective said he thought he got beat up when
he first saw him.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
What did you make of what our medical examiner told
us yesterday regarding those BikeE marks on his arm? What
we think maybe BikeE marks?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Right? I thought it was well stated. My problem with
it is that dog has no bottom jaw. That's weird.
The lines are not the same distance apart, they're not
the same width, it's not the same pattern. There's these
little sections of parallel injuries. None of them are the same. Again,
(13:44):
for this tail light, if you've got one jagged end
of a tail light that's going to cut you, that's
not parallel marks. I've seen nothing from that broken tail
light that would cause that. There's not two protruding ends
of glass would have made those marks. So again, that's
a magic tail light. I mean, the whole thing is asinine.
(14:06):
And they're talking about the one arm, and I ask again,
if she hit him dead on, where's the injury to
his stomach, his hips, his knees, his thighs. They're not there.
It doesn't look like a car injury to me.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
One thing that concerns, well, a lot of things concerned me,
mostly the credibility of the state's witnesses. They've got a
huge problem But what has concerned me from the beginning
is the injury to his head. I don't understand how
that would have happened unless he had already been knocked
down or was already on his knees in some prone position,
(14:47):
and then he was hit with the car. And I
need to know more about the DNA on the bumper.
Is it touched DNA? What is it? If it's a
blood that means more than if it's you know, touch
a DNA from your skin, You have to filial cells.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
That brings up an excellent point because if he was
on his knees backwards and the bumper is what split
his head open, then how did the tail light get
on the front of his clothing? Both of those things
can't be true.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
What do you make of the statements that multiple with
this claim? They heard her say I did it? Did
I do it? How can that be explained?
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's a spontaneous utterance that they're going to have to
get past, there's no doubt. But how drunk was she?
That would be the first thing I would talk about.
And are they miss hearing or did they all get
together and come up with this, because you know they're
covering up for what they did. So again, you've got
a police officer that's got the wrong time on a warrant.
(15:49):
He doesn't interview everybody that was at that house. He
takes the word of three people that would have had
the reason to cover up if they did something to him.
He says that John o'keith never went in that house.
He has no proof of that. He's got a videotape
with time missing from it. If he did not participate
(16:11):
in some type of cover up, his actions did every
single thing to make people go, hey, wait a minute,
this is kind of f's up. Because I'm telling you
right now, I know you were talking about troop or
product or needed to spanking. If I came to you
and I had a warrant with the time role on
a police officer's murder, Nancy Grace, please, you would still
(16:32):
be cussing me out rightfully.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
So, Cheryl, I hear what you're saying. The state's witnesses
did a horrible job, and the prosecutors trying to clean
it all up. But I'm looking at a different issue.
I'm looking at the truth. I'm trying to determine the truth,
(16:55):
and I don't care what people say about me on
Twitter or install or Facebook or wherever. Go right ahead,
and you can keep on telling me what the witness
did want wrong and what the state did wrong. And
you're right about that. That said, what is the truth?
(17:21):
And I can't get away from the fact that different witnesses,
separated in time and space, claim that she Karen Reid
said I did it or questioned did I do it?
That concerns me. That makes me think she did it. However,
(17:45):
I don't know in light of the credibility issues, that
there's going to be a guilty verdict. I'm just telling
you the way I see it, and I'm sure I'll
be ripped apart online, you know, have it?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Just tell people something. So I mean, obviously we are
friends and I love and adore you. There was a
young female reporter that had some crap to say about you,
and I remember I was fixing to go in. I
was going to go public. I was going to be nasty.
I was going to let her know about her and
(18:22):
her mama and everybody she's ever met. And you said,
I don't need you to fight a battle for me.
It's not significant. Don't do it. Don't worry about it.
Move on, go enjoy your day. But part of me,
because I am your friend, felt like, yeah, that sounds good, Nancy,
But this girl needs to be told that. The reality
(18:46):
is you wouldn't have a job covering true crime if
it weren't for Nancy Grace. So watch your mouth, you know.
But you were so clear about the importance of I'm
covering a case. I'm going to keep the facts out there.
I'm going to let people know the truth as it
comes out in a logical, succinct manner, and we don't
(19:08):
need to be out there dull cussin people. So I
will say I do appreciate your advice because I didn't
go after that girl.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Can I tell you something. I don't even remember her
or it or the situation. It doesn't even matter to me.
Nothing matters to me except a true verdict. And if
people want to get mad because I hear all these
near confessions and confessions and I believe them, okay, get mad.
(19:41):
But again, I don't know that there's going to be
a conviction because of the state screw ups. It's just that,
I mean, that's the truth. Do I like saying that
about state's witnesses? No, or cops. No, but it's the truth.
They screwed up badly, and it's not so much a mistake.
It's not so much of the made mistake. They didn't
give a flying fig. They didn't care enough about John
(20:05):
O'Keefe to drag their bones out to the scene and
do what they're supposed to do. If this case fails
against Karen Reid, it's their fault. And I learned something else.
I learned something else. When you are a prosecutor or
a cop, you have to be beyond reproach. You have
(20:28):
to live your life in a way that people can't
come back on you and say you're a scum bucket.
You did this, you did that, because that's what happens.
This was happening to these cops in this case. They
have conducted the investigation in a way that it has
destroyed the case.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Agreed one hundred percent. And that's the other thing with
young rookies listening to this episode. You think you can
send a text message and nobody's going to know you're wrong.
If you think you can leave a voice mama now
or say something at a party, you're wrong. And I
will tell you sitting here right now, Nancy Grace, and
(21:06):
I know great unbelievable information about suspects, defendants, and victims.
You ain't never heard us tell it. It's not for entertainment.
It's not to embarrass people. It's not so we can
sound cool at a dinner party. And to me, what
Trooper Proctor did is unforgivable.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
We can crucify a Proctor later, but right now we're
trying care and read for murder. You want to tell
me that if she didn't do it, you actually believe
there's a big police cover up and a cop did it.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Let me tell you my problem. There is no way
I'm ever gonna believe that a man, a stranger was
found dead on a police officer's front lawn and he
didn't go outside. I don't like it. There's no way
I'm going to ever understand that lack of action.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So you believe then that the first responders, four of
seven first responders all claim they heard Karan Reid Utterer
some type of a confession, four of them. So I'm
going to disbelieve them too, that first responders they're in
(22:28):
on it.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It ain't tough. I don't know that I believe that
what I do believe is the inaction of the people
in that house and the lack of investigation of law enforcement.
It leads you to think did they get it right?
Because there were a few people that said they didn't
(22:50):
hear say anything. So who's telling the truth there?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Well, as you know, it's the jury's duty to make
all witnesses speak the truth and in pen perjuryed one.
If you walked into my kitchen and I was cooking,
and I had the fan blowing over the stove, and
music was playing, and the twins were talking, and my
mother was talking, and the dog was barking, and to
(23:15):
ah blah blah, you think you would hear everything that
happened in that kitchen from the door. So are you
actually trying to tell me Cheryl McCom because this is Cheryl,
I don't know you're trying to tell me. There's seven
first responders and because four heard her say I hit him,
(23:35):
I hit him, and three didn't, you're telling me that
four that at least three people are lying. You can't
see a scenario on an emergency scene where people are
doing different things and they're all doing their jobs. They
did not hear what Karen Reid said.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I'm telling you that I understood that. First, she was
saying what happened to could I have done it? I
hit him? I almost say a question mark.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Well, I'm referring specifically to Flamatti, who is a fire
department it's an active fire department, acting lieutenant. He described
how it is sop that you talk to everybody that
you come in contact with, and he said that Reed said,
(24:26):
I hit him. I hit him, OMG, I hit him.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
My problem is the injuries don't line up to a
car hitting him. So if she's out there, drunk, panicked,
frantic in her own words, she's the only one on
that scene trying to save his life, the only one
given CPR. The men in the house, who are trained
police officers did not come out of the house and
(24:49):
try to save their friend. I don't know how a
jury's going to get past that.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I don't think they are going to get past it.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I don't either, and that's been my problem from day one.
I mean, I basically said, this is Casey Anthony and
Mark Furman having a baby. It's Troop or Broctor because
you've got Casey Anthony where we don't know how that
baby died I'm in the same place right now. They
have not told me how this officer died. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
It's too late. I think that jury got lost, as
he phrased it, when Proctor took the stand when he
was cross examined. I think that was the kiss of
death for this trial.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Well, I just want to say publicly to you. Here's
what I want to say to you, and I mean
this sincerely. I was young when we first started working together.
I'm much much younger than you, so I was so young.
But never never did you put me in a situation
where integrity would be questioned. You never did anything unethical
(25:51):
or under the table or sideways or half ass ever,
and you demanded the same from us. And I just
appreciate that because after all those years working with you,
that's how I continued to work when you were no
longer my prosecutor.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
That's why, Cheryl, when I look at cases like this,
I just can't believe the slip shod behave. And another
thing I'm telling you about these various first responders that
heard or say that, well, there's a problem with it
because I don't know if you remember officer sir Raff.
(26:30):
He did not put in his police report that read
made that comment. He only said that months later. I mean,
that would be the first thing I'd put in the
police report.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Uh yeah, if it happened.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Karen reed State's quote, I hit him.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
And when you used to teach report writing at the academy,
and when I still teach it, I say, if it
ain't wrote down, it didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
And so it's just one thing after the next, after
the next. So we have to rely on this stays
witnesses credibility, and they have lost that credibility because a
proctor and others. I can't get away from her saying
did I do it? Did I do it? Is that
my fault? I hit him? I hit him, I am.
I can't get away from that because so many witnesses
(27:16):
are saying that's what happened. But you've got me on
the Google, you got me, and I can't reconcile that.
How is the state trying to explain that a way?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
They're going to say that somehow the time was wrong
on her phone, just like the other two people. Oh
those are all butt dials. Oh there's a ring camera,
but he didn't turn in that video. I mean there's
problem after problem after problem. I mean snowblowers and red
solo cups and stopping her all bags. I mean, the
whole thing just sounds like a joke.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
What do you think about Jennifer McCabe, She is the
one that made the Google search.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I don't think she come off very well at all.
I don't know how you're going to ever explained to
me why in the world you would ever look that up,
especially after a friend of yours is found frozen in
the snow.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I have looked it up.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Well, you're you know it's different up. I looked it.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Up when the three chiefs Fans died in the backyard
in the bad weather. But I remember after I after
I wrote my first book, Objection, and in one chapter
that I think I called blood money about people, you know,
selling autopsy reports in crime scene photo. It's just horrible,
(28:33):
horrible people that will just do anything for money. I
was looking up researching cases where that had been done
and much worse. And I got to tell you, it
was like a little two or three hundred dollars laptop
that I bought and I only used it to research
and write books. After I wrote that book, I was
(28:56):
so disgusted, I got rid of the laptop. I destroyed
the laptop. It had so many horrible memories attached to
it and the cases that I would research and write about.
I didn't think I could type another good thing ever
on that laptop. I got completely destroyed it. I'm thinking
(29:17):
about people's laptops and why she would have made that search,
and how the stake could rehabilitate that.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Well, here's what's critical to me. You had a legitimate
investigative reason to look up why how long it would
take somebody to freeze? She didn't.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Of course, David saw it and thought it was about him.
Shut up, David, he toes. And when I wrote that part,
I can't remember what book it was. I was trying
to take the children to go to gate Land, and
you know where this is going. And we did Gator.
(29:54):
We went to quote Old Florida, and we went to Wikiwaschi.
We went to swim with a man and see, we
went to gator Land. And I was writing so funny.
I was writing a sequence in a book where a
guy is killed at I think I said, Gator World,
whatever the opposite of Gator the real place is. And
(30:17):
to this day I say, hey, David, go buy some
hot dogs. That's all I have to say, because the
joke is I'm gonna stuff in his pockets, push it
over off the dog in gater Land and data World
or whatever it is. Anyway, let me just remind you.
Jennifer McCabe, who was a friend of the couples, Okay,
testified after John's body was found. Reid screamed, I hit him,
(30:42):
I hit him, I hit him. Karen Reid frantically asked
McCabe to do a Google search on how long it
takes someone to die of hypothermia.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
If she, in fact googled it at two forty five
before his body was found, that's going to be damn it.
Second of all, let's talk about what she didn't google.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It was at two twenty seven. Get your fact straight.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
She didn't google did a snowplow hit somebody? What would
it look like? She didn't google what the dog bites
looked like. She didn't google what do you do if
the police officers murdered in your front freaking yard. So
there's several things she didn't do. So she only googled
one thing. I find that kind of bogus. And why
would you even google it if somebody told you to.
(31:27):
That's bizarre. I don't buy any of that.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
I would google it. If you count to me and say, hey,
how long does it take for somebody to freeze dead
and the cold, I'll google it. I wouldn't think twice about.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
It, Nancy Grace. If me and you are standing in
you the you.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
And I, let's practice it. If you and I were standing.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
If you and I were standing on the front yard
and Walt is dead, frozen in the snow, there ain't
no way you're googling that. That shouldn't even cross either
one of our minds. That's what I'm telling you. Doesn't
matter how long it took him to freeze. It is
(32:08):
unproven every step of the way that he was murdered
by Karen Reid so far, unless the prosecution does a
complete three point sixty I said that to you yesterday.
You got a lead detective that didn't go to the scene,
only interviewed three people, and those three people would have
had the reason to cover up if they had, in
fact beat him in that house and thrown him in
(32:30):
the snow. That's a fact.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
You don't think they would take his body elsewhere. You know,
you think that beat him up and throw them basically
in the front yard and go, what sid that? That
doesn't doesn't ring true to me. I mean, put yourself
in the mind of a killer. If you're going to
kill somebody, you're gonna throw them in your own front yard.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Well, you don't want your car called on ring camera
leaving for no reason to forty two in the morning, whatever.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
It was, as if you wouldn't be caught going out
the door with a dead body.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, but that's the deal. Where's the ring video? He
didn't turn it in. That's what I'm saying. That's a
bad look, Nancy. If you get in your car and
drive through your neighborhood, your car is going to get
picked up on ring video that you can't do nothing
about your own home ring video. You can delete it,
the lead investigator can choose not to turn it in.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
So you're really going with the theory that cops kill
their friend and let him die out in the cold.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Nancy, I have given you nine reasons that there's a
cop cover up, and all you have is Karen Reid
said she hitting.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I have multiple witnesses claiming that she said she did it.
I have her bus to tell light, and I have
his DNA and hair on the back of her car.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Any defense attorney can explain those last two things. And
again the problem with the tail light. There's some video
that shows the tail lights intact. The only reason in that,
sally Port. Why would you send an inverted video? Why
would you show you're on the wrong side of the car.
Every single thing that the state has put up so far,
(34:18):
to me, hurts them. Everything. The video time is wrong,
the time on the warrant wrong, when they told the car.
We don't know proger, do know chain of custody. He's
the one that supposedly didn't go to the crime scene
that day, but he found the taill light the next day. Okay,
Mark Furman, I don't think they're going to buy it.
(34:39):
I just don't. They have not shown me that she
killed him by her vehic. That's all I can tell you.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I just can't get away from her statements. I have
to believe that all those people, all of them, are
lying about what she said. I could accept one or two,
maybe even three lying, but all the people, and all
of them are not law enforcement. I'd have to believe
Jennifer McCabe is lying, I'd have to believe O'Keefe's niece
(35:09):
is lying. I'd have to believe everybody's lying except Karen Reed.
I had a problem with that.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Have you heard that John O'Keefe might have turned in
some people in his department? Have you heard that rumor?
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yep, I've heard it for right now. That's all it is,
is a rumor. I heard that Oj Simpson's son was
the killer. I heard that too. Did that make it true? No?
I've heard a lot of things. A lot of things
come our way, Cheryl, but that doesn't mean they're all true.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Well, y'all, we gonna have to hang on and as
Nancy Gray says, and we wait.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
For justice too unfault. Yep, that's all we can do now.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Amen, all right, Well, I love you, I appreciate you. Bye, buddy, Bye, honey.
I'm Cheryl McCollum. And this is the crime round Up
with zones having m
Welcome to the Crime Round Up with Nancy Grace and
Cheryl McCollum. Y'all better hang on to your beds. Today
it is read Karen Reid, troop and productor All morning,
Good morning, Miss Grace. How are you, sugar?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well, I'll tell you what. I'm a little shell shocked.
You know, Cheryl, you and I do not have any
skin in the game, no dog in the fight. I'm
not trying this case. I did not investigate this case.
I am responding to what I see coming out of
the courtroom. And I have never seen well, maybe I have,
and I'm not remembering them. So many bitter people angry
(00:49):
because we have an opinion different than their opinion. I
don't get it.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I don't get it either. And I've never seen a
case where there's no gray. It is team Karen Reid
or team John o'keef and that's it.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, here's what I think the problem is. I think
the state's got very compelling evidence, is strong evidence, but
I think the state's witnesses have some credibility problems. And
as you kept pointing out to me on MSM, which
is hitting YouTube today, when the lead investigator does not
(01:26):
go to the crime scene. That's terrible. That is a huge,
huge dereliction of duty. I mean, before I would take
a case to a trial, and I certainly was not
the lead investigator, I would go and ife all the witnesses,
look for other witnesses, take my own photos, and of
course go the crime scene. I mean that was number one.
(01:48):
So I could understand. And can I tell us, Cheryl
mula Callum, how many times I could trip up a
defense witness because A they were lying and B they
hadn't been to the scene so they didn't know what
they were talking about.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Got to point out, you're not talking about a burglary,
You're talking about the potential murder of a police officer.
And you don't go to the crime scene, and you
don't collect everybody's phone, and you don't go in that house,
and you only interview three people like it's mind boggling
to me that he didn't think he was about to
(02:20):
have some serious credibility issues.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I think another issue is this, although everybody and their
cousin seems to hate police. Now, not me and not you,
I'm sure, not my family, but a lot of people
hate police for various reasons, and some of them justified.
But that said, even though they may be comb be haters,
(02:45):
and they expect a higher degree of behavior, a higher
degree of credibility from a police officer. And I agree
with that because the state and police officers are put
people in jail, so they darn well better be telling
the truth and they better be right, and they better
(03:06):
have done their job. So the anger and the bitterness
when you find out a cop didn't do their job,
did not go to the crime scene, or you suspect
a cop planted evidence, it's a deeper, a much deeper
betrayal than from somebody you don't know. It's almost you
(03:26):
trust them to do the right thing. You believe they're
going to do the right thing, at least do their job,
and when they don't, it's a deeper betrayal. I think
people are feeling that bitterness, specifically over the lead detective,
and because of the lead detective, and because of Proctor
and his highly inappropriate comments about Karen Reid. It's just
(03:49):
put a bad taste in everybody's mouth. Now, as a
trial lawyer, I can compartmentalize and keep my eye on
did she kill him? To hey, Like I've said, don't
expect nouns and priests and virgens to testify for the
state that a going to happen. But you have to
look at what happened. And this is what gets me.
(04:13):
Tell me if I'm wrong, because I mean, I dare
to look at Twitter. Last night I just closed it
up about how you and I have not been following
the case and we don't know about we do and
we have. But when I have a multiple witnesses state
that she said, what did I do? Did I do something?
(04:36):
I mean, do you remember when your sister fell in
the pool, the empty pool? I never once heard you
say did I do that? Did I? Because you didn't?
And I think that's like O. J. Simpson is saying,
if I did it, you didn't do it. Well.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
See that's the problem I have, and that's why I
have equated him with Mark Furman.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
You mean the detective, yes, proctor.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Once you make your mind up that this person is
not credible because they said they didn't use a word,
then they used it, then suddenly he's out there planting evidence.
We are seeing the same thing here. This guy says, well, yeah,
the time's wrong on the warrant, and I didn't go
to the crime scene and I only talked to three people,
(05:26):
and after sixteen hours I had it wrapped up. Nobody's
buying that on a murder of a police officer. So
now they're saying, well, he then had to plant the
tail light, he busted the tail light.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
He cared so little they did a slipshod job, but
he cared enough to frame somebody. I mean, you can't
have both of those.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
You can't have both of those. But here's the lesson
for junior detectives and people coming up. This is what
happens in our world. Nancy. If you lie about one thing,
light about everything, and you can't unring a bell, you've
got twelve people sitting over there, and you've made fun
of suicide, You've made fun of people's medical problems, You've
(06:10):
made fun of women in every derogatory way you can
think of. They have to forgive a lot and say, Okay,
he could be a complete douchebag in his private life.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I'm sorry. Is that some ten of coal legal time?
I'm not familiar with.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It is it's Latin sure, total pricas. So what I'm
saying is, seriously, though, that's what we're expecting that jury
to be able to do to say, hey, maybe I
had somebody in my family commit suicide, and he's wishing
this on this person that he already made his mind
up because she's a whack job his opinion. She's the
(06:50):
sea word that he didn't even want to say in court.
He had to spell it. So that's how bad he
knew that. Look and again, if they forgive that, he
is this ass hat? Okay, great? How can he be
this person in the middle of an investigation Texan high
school friends? He hopes he finds nudes of her and
(07:13):
then releases her medical issues in the most heinous way
and elementary school playground way. But I'm sure everything was
above board in the investigation. I don't think they're going
to buy that.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
No. I think that's the big problem. I think that
the credibility issue with rocked Her is so vast the
state may not be able to overcome it. Now. Do
I think that she murdered O'Keefe. I don't know that
murder is the right charge. I think that she was angry.
(07:50):
Why does she back up for twenty wait how many feet?
At what speed?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah? Twenty four miles an hour?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
She backed up for sixty feet, as I recall that
this is off the top of my head on nearly
one o'clock in the morning, where he was found. She
backed up sixty feet at twenty four mph. Now we
know that's where she was at the time. She backed
(08:18):
up because her data they caught the black box, the
you know, the NAV, the NAV system. It's outside Albert's home,
and that is where the broken tail light, what's left
of it, is found outside his home. Her own NAV
(08:39):
place is herd there at sixty feet backwards at twenty
four miles an hour. I think she was angry. We
know they were having a horrible argument and she backed up.
I don't think she meant to kill him. But when you,
for instance, hold a gun to somebody's head and you
(09:00):
end up pulling the trigger and shooting them, you can't say, yes,
I held the gun up, I was just trying to
scare them. That noe. Under the law, that's still a murder.
I think she was trying to bump him or scare
him and didn't mean to kill him. That's what I
think happened.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
The issue is what's not there. There's no blood there,
there's no injury to him. Where the bumper would have
hit him on his legs or his abdomen or his hips.
Where are the injuries that a car hit him? Most
experts are going to tell you you've got to go about
fifty miles an hour to knock somebody out of their shoes,
(09:42):
not twenty four. Now are there problems? There's problems on
both sides. That's the issue when you do a half
assed investigation, when you make your mind up, Oh this
bitch did it. We're done. You're not done. How many
times Nancy did you send us back? How many times
did you say I need more? We could bring you
(10:04):
a video of the person shooting them, and you'd go,
where's the shellcase? And where's where's a witness? I need
an eyewitness or an air witness. You always want more.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
You're arguing could it would have? Should? I'm just asking
you very simply, do you think she did it?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
I don't know, because they have shown me nothing so far.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Well, Cheryl, if you don't know, if the jury doesn't know,
they have to equit. That's not even grounds from mistrial.
But what do you think of Lally that he claims
red Lally? Excuse me claims? Reid said over and over
I hit him, I head am, I hit him.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Here's what I think. I was spoiled rotten by you.
So when I see the first three or four witnesses
and I'm like, are these prosecution witnesses? They sound like
they're testifying for the defense. It seemed to me that
none of the witnesses right out of the gate were
(11:05):
prepped by the prosecution at all. So at first I
was not impressed what I watched when Proctor was on
the stand. If you noticed, the defense attorney repeatedly asked
questions and the prosecution would say objection, and the judge
would say sustained, but the jury heard it. He walked
(11:25):
them right to it. You don't know the chain of custody.
You said you didn't know the Alberts. Now we know
that you know three. Well, then in about two minutes
he had to admit he knew four of them, and
it asked one to babysit his children. The other one
they were so drunk in their city vehicle that he
left his gun and badging there. So you have created
(11:48):
this whole thing where you have zero integrity, not even
an integrity issue. Mark Furman lied about using one word
this guy has shown every step of the way he
did not do what John O'Keeffe's family deserved. And that's
my problem with the whole thing. I don't think he
(12:10):
will never be able to recover every single case he
has ever been the lead on. They should come back
and demand a review.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Oh did you know I'm hearing rumblings that the Walsh
case is in jeopardy. Remember Anna Walsh? Oh? Yes, murdered
and most likely dismembered, leaving behind her little boys. And
the husband did it the art fraudster. Yeah, I'm getting
rumblings that this may affect that case.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And it should every case he's ever touched. And that's
the problem. And so far I've heard zero evidence that
John O'Keefe was murdered. We hadn't heard it yet. It
may be coming.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Okay, woll whoa whoa WoT cause of death is a
blunt trauma in hypothermia. So you think that blunt trauma
was an accident?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
No, I don't know that. If he fell backwards and
hit the fire hydrant, I don't know. Maybe he slipped
on ice. We don't know. That's the problem. Even the
lead detective said he thought he got beat up when
he first saw him.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
What did you make of what our medical examiner told
us yesterday regarding those BikeE marks on his arm? What
we think maybe BikeE marks?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Right? I thought it was well stated. My problem with
it is that dog has no bottom jaw. That's weird.
The lines are not the same distance apart, they're not
the same width, it's not the same pattern. There's these
little sections of parallel injuries. None of them are the same. Again,
(13:44):
for this tail light, if you've got one jagged end
of a tail light that's going to cut you, that's
not parallel marks. I've seen nothing from that broken tail
light that would cause that. There's not two protruding ends
of glass would have made those marks. So again, that's
a magic tail light. I mean, the whole thing is asinine.
(14:06):
And they're talking about the one arm, and I ask again,
if she hit him dead on, where's the injury to
his stomach, his hips, his knees, his thighs. They're not there.
It doesn't look like a car injury to me.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
One thing that concerns, well, a lot of things concerned me,
mostly the credibility of the state's witnesses. They've got a
huge problem But what has concerned me from the beginning
is the injury to his head. I don't understand how
that would have happened unless he had already been knocked
down or was already on his knees in some prone position,
(14:47):
and then he was hit with the car. And I
need to know more about the DNA on the bumper.
Is it touched DNA? What is it? If it's a
blood that means more than if it's you know, touch
a DNA from your skin, You have to filial cells.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
That brings up an excellent point because if he was
on his knees backwards and the bumper is what split
his head open, then how did the tail light get
on the front of his clothing? Both of those things
can't be true.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
What do you make of the statements that multiple with
this claim? They heard her say I did it? Did
I do it? How can that be explained?
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's a spontaneous utterance that they're going to have to
get past, there's no doubt. But how drunk was she?
That would be the first thing I would talk about.
And are they miss hearing or did they all get
together and come up with this, because you know they're
covering up for what they did. So again, you've got
a police officer that's got the wrong time on a warrant.
(15:49):
He doesn't interview everybody that was at that house. He
takes the word of three people that would have had
the reason to cover up if they did something to him.
He says that John o'keith never went in that house.
He has no proof of that. He's got a videotape
with time missing from it. If he did not participate
(16:11):
in some type of cover up, his actions did every
single thing to make people go, hey, wait a minute,
this is kind of f's up. Because I'm telling you
right now, I know you were talking about troop or
product or needed to spanking. If I came to you
and I had a warrant with the time role on
a police officer's murder, Nancy Grace, please, you would still
(16:32):
be cussing me out rightfully.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
So, Cheryl, I hear what you're saying. The state's witnesses
did a horrible job, and the prosecutors trying to clean
it all up. But I'm looking at a different issue.
I'm looking at the truth. I'm trying to determine the truth,
(16:55):
and I don't care what people say about me on
Twitter or install or Facebook or wherever. Go right ahead,
and you can keep on telling me what the witness
did want wrong and what the state did wrong. And
you're right about that. That said, what is the truth?
(17:21):
And I can't get away from the fact that different witnesses,
separated in time and space, claim that she Karen Reid
said I did it or questioned did I do it?
That concerns me. That makes me think she did it. However,
(17:45):
I don't know in light of the credibility issues, that
there's going to be a guilty verdict. I'm just telling
you the way I see it, and I'm sure I'll
be ripped apart online, you know, have it?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Just tell people something. So I mean, obviously we are
friends and I love and adore you. There was a
young female reporter that had some crap to say about you,
and I remember I was fixing to go in. I
was going to go public. I was going to be nasty.
I was going to let her know about her and
(18:22):
her mama and everybody she's ever met. And you said,
I don't need you to fight a battle for me.
It's not significant. Don't do it. Don't worry about it.
Move on, go enjoy your day. But part of me,
because I am your friend, felt like, yeah, that sounds good, Nancy,
But this girl needs to be told that. The reality
(18:46):
is you wouldn't have a job covering true crime if
it weren't for Nancy Grace. So watch your mouth, you know.
But you were so clear about the importance of I'm
covering a case. I'm going to keep the facts out there.
I'm going to let people know the truth as it
comes out in a logical, succinct manner, and we don't
(19:08):
need to be out there dull cussin people. So I
will say I do appreciate your advice because I didn't
go after that girl.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Can I tell you something. I don't even remember her
or it or the situation. It doesn't even matter to me.
Nothing matters to me except a true verdict. And if
people want to get mad because I hear all these
near confessions and confessions and I believe them, okay, get mad.
(19:41):
But again, I don't know that there's going to be
a conviction because of the state screw ups. It's just that,
I mean, that's the truth. Do I like saying that
about state's witnesses? No, or cops. No, but it's the truth.
They screwed up badly, and it's not so much a mistake.
It's not so much of the made mistake. They didn't
give a flying fig. They didn't care enough about John
(20:05):
O'Keefe to drag their bones out to the scene and
do what they're supposed to do. If this case fails
against Karen Reid, it's their fault. And I learned something else.
I learned something else. When you are a prosecutor or
a cop, you have to be beyond reproach. You have
(20:28):
to live your life in a way that people can't
come back on you and say you're a scum bucket.
You did this, you did that, because that's what happens.
This was happening to these cops in this case. They
have conducted the investigation in a way that it has
destroyed the case.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Agreed one hundred percent. And that's the other thing with
young rookies listening to this episode. You think you can
send a text message and nobody's going to know you're wrong.
If you think you can leave a voice mama now
or say something at a party, you're wrong. And I
will tell you sitting here right now, Nancy Grace, and
(21:06):
I know great unbelievable information about suspects, defendants, and victims.
You ain't never heard us tell it. It's not for entertainment.
It's not to embarrass people. It's not so we can
sound cool at a dinner party. And to me, what
Trooper Proctor did is unforgivable.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
We can crucify a Proctor later, but right now we're
trying care and read for murder. You want to tell
me that if she didn't do it, you actually believe
there's a big police cover up and a cop did it.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Let me tell you my problem. There is no way
I'm ever gonna believe that a man, a stranger was
found dead on a police officer's front lawn and he
didn't go outside. I don't like it. There's no way
I'm going to ever understand that lack of action.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So you believe then that the first responders, four of
seven first responders all claim they heard Karan Reid Utterer
some type of a confession, four of them. So I'm
going to disbelieve them too, that first responders they're in
(22:28):
on it.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It ain't tough. I don't know that I believe that
what I do believe is the inaction of the people
in that house and the lack of investigation of law enforcement.
It leads you to think did they get it right?
Because there were a few people that said they didn't
(22:50):
hear say anything. So who's telling the truth there?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Well, as you know, it's the jury's duty to make
all witnesses speak the truth and in pen perjuryed one.
If you walked into my kitchen and I was cooking,
and I had the fan blowing over the stove, and
music was playing, and the twins were talking, and my
mother was talking, and the dog was barking, and to
(23:15):
ah blah blah, you think you would hear everything that
happened in that kitchen from the door. So are you
actually trying to tell me Cheryl McCom because this is Cheryl,
I don't know you're trying to tell me. There's seven
first responders and because four heard her say I hit him,
(23:35):
I hit him, and three didn't, you're telling me that
four that at least three people are lying. You can't
see a scenario on an emergency scene where people are
doing different things and they're all doing their jobs. They
did not hear what Karen Reid said.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I'm telling you that I understood that. First, she was
saying what happened to could I have done it? I
hit him? I almost say a question mark.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Well, I'm referring specifically to Flamatti, who is a fire
department it's an active fire department, acting lieutenant. He described
how it is sop that you talk to everybody that
you come in contact with, and he said that Reed said,
(24:26):
I hit him. I hit him, OMG, I hit him.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
My problem is the injuries don't line up to a
car hitting him. So if she's out there, drunk, panicked,
frantic in her own words, she's the only one on
that scene trying to save his life, the only one
given CPR. The men in the house, who are trained
police officers did not come out of the house and
(24:49):
try to save their friend. I don't know how a
jury's going to get past that.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I don't think they are going to get past it.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I don't either, and that's been my problem from day one.
I mean, I basically said, this is Casey Anthony and
Mark Furman having a baby. It's Troop or Broctor because
you've got Casey Anthony where we don't know how that
baby died I'm in the same place right now. They
have not told me how this officer died. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
It's too late. I think that jury got lost, as
he phrased it, when Proctor took the stand when he
was cross examined. I think that was the kiss of
death for this trial.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Well, I just want to say publicly to you. Here's
what I want to say to you, and I mean
this sincerely. I was young when we first started working together.
I'm much much younger than you, so I was so young.
But never never did you put me in a situation
where integrity would be questioned. You never did anything unethical
(25:51):
or under the table or sideways or half ass ever,
and you demanded the same from us. And I just
appreciate that because after all those years working with you,
that's how I continued to work when you were no
longer my prosecutor.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
That's why, Cheryl, when I look at cases like this,
I just can't believe the slip shod behave. And another
thing I'm telling you about these various first responders that
heard or say that, well, there's a problem with it
because I don't know if you remember officer sir Raff.
(26:30):
He did not put in his police report that read
made that comment. He only said that months later. I mean,
that would be the first thing I'd put in the
police report.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Uh yeah, if it happened.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Karen reed State's quote, I hit him.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
And when you used to teach report writing at the academy,
and when I still teach it, I say, if it
ain't wrote down, it didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
And so it's just one thing after the next, after
the next. So we have to rely on this stays
witnesses credibility, and they have lost that credibility because a
proctor and others. I can't get away from her saying
did I do it? Did I do it? Is that
my fault? I hit him? I hit him, I am.
I can't get away from that because so many witnesses
(27:16):
are saying that's what happened. But you've got me on
the Google, you got me, and I can't reconcile that.
How is the state trying to explain that a way?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
They're going to say that somehow the time was wrong
on her phone, just like the other two people. Oh
those are all butt dials. Oh there's a ring camera,
but he didn't turn in that video. I mean there's
problem after problem after problem. I mean snowblowers and red
solo cups and stopping her all bags. I mean, the
whole thing just sounds like a joke.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
What do you think about Jennifer McCabe, She is the
one that made the Google search.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I don't think she come off very well at all.
I don't know how you're going to ever explained to
me why in the world you would ever look that up,
especially after a friend of yours is found frozen in
the snow.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I have looked it up.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Well, you're you know it's different up. I looked it.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Up when the three chiefs Fans died in the backyard
in the bad weather. But I remember after I after
I wrote my first book, Objection, and in one chapter
that I think I called blood money about people, you know,
selling autopsy reports in crime scene photo. It's just horrible,
(28:33):
horrible people that will just do anything for money. I
was looking up researching cases where that had been done
and much worse. And I got to tell you, it
was like a little two or three hundred dollars laptop
that I bought and I only used it to research
and write books. After I wrote that book, I was
(28:56):
so disgusted, I got rid of the laptop. I destroyed
the laptop. It had so many horrible memories attached to
it and the cases that I would research and write about.
I didn't think I could type another good thing ever
on that laptop. I got completely destroyed it. I'm thinking
(29:17):
about people's laptops and why she would have made that search,
and how the stake could rehabilitate that.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Well, here's what's critical to me. You had a legitimate
investigative reason to look up why how long it would
take somebody to freeze? She didn't.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Of course, David saw it and thought it was about him.
Shut up, David, he toes. And when I wrote that part,
I can't remember what book it was. I was trying
to take the children to go to gate Land, and
you know where this is going. And we did Gator.
(29:54):
We went to quote Old Florida, and we went to Wikiwaschi.
We went to swim with a man and see, we
went to gator Land. And I was writing so funny.
I was writing a sequence in a book where a
guy is killed at I think I said, Gator World,
whatever the opposite of Gator the real place is. And
(30:17):
to this day I say, hey, David, go buy some
hot dogs. That's all I have to say, because the
joke is I'm gonna stuff in his pockets, push it
over off the dog in gater Land and data World
or whatever it is. Anyway, let me just remind you.
Jennifer McCabe, who was a friend of the couples, Okay,
testified after John's body was found. Reid screamed, I hit him,
(30:42):
I hit him, I hit him. Karen Reid frantically asked
McCabe to do a Google search on how long it
takes someone to die of hypothermia.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
If she, in fact googled it at two forty five
before his body was found, that's going to be damn it.
Second of all, let's talk about what she didn't google.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It was at two twenty seven. Get your fact straight.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
She didn't google did a snowplow hit somebody? What would
it look like? She didn't google what the dog bites
looked like. She didn't google what do you do if
the police officers murdered in your front freaking yard. So
there's several things she didn't do. So she only googled
one thing. I find that kind of bogus. And why
would you even google it if somebody told you to.
(31:27):
That's bizarre. I don't buy any of that.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
I would google it. If you count to me and say, hey,
how long does it take for somebody to freeze dead
and the cold, I'll google it. I wouldn't think twice about.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
It, Nancy Grace. If me and you are standing in
you the you.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
And I, let's practice it. If you and I were standing.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
If you and I were standing on the front yard
and Walt is dead, frozen in the snow, there ain't
no way you're googling that. That shouldn't even cross either
one of our minds. That's what I'm telling you. Doesn't
matter how long it took him to freeze. It is
(32:08):
unproven every step of the way that he was murdered
by Karen Reid so far, unless the prosecution does a
complete three point sixty I said that to you yesterday.
You got a lead detective that didn't go to the scene,
only interviewed three people, and those three people would have
had the reason to cover up if they had, in
fact beat him in that house and thrown him in
(32:30):
the snow. That's a fact.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
You don't think they would take his body elsewhere. You know,
you think that beat him up and throw them basically
in the front yard and go, what sid that? That
doesn't doesn't ring true to me. I mean, put yourself
in the mind of a killer. If you're going to
kill somebody, you're gonna throw them in your own front yard.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Well, you don't want your car called on ring camera
leaving for no reason to forty two in the morning, whatever.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
It was, as if you wouldn't be caught going out
the door with a dead body.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, but that's the deal. Where's the ring video? He
didn't turn it in. That's what I'm saying. That's a
bad look, Nancy. If you get in your car and
drive through your neighborhood, your car is going to get
picked up on ring video that you can't do nothing
about your own home ring video. You can delete it,
the lead investigator can choose not to turn it in.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
So you're really going with the theory that cops kill
their friend and let him die out in the cold.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Nancy, I have given you nine reasons that there's a
cop cover up, and all you have is Karen Reid
said she hitting.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I have multiple witnesses claiming that she said she did it.
I have her bus to tell light, and I have
his DNA and hair on the back of her car.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Any defense attorney can explain those last two things. And
again the problem with the tail light. There's some video
that shows the tail lights intact. The only reason in that,
sally Port. Why would you send an inverted video? Why
would you show you're on the wrong side of the car.
Every single thing that the state has put up so far,
(34:18):
to me, hurts them. Everything. The video time is wrong,
the time on the warrant wrong, when they told the car.
We don't know proger, do know chain of custody. He's
the one that supposedly didn't go to the crime scene
that day, but he found the taill light the next day. Okay,
Mark Furman, I don't think they're going to buy it.
(34:39):
I just don't. They have not shown me that she
killed him by her vehic. That's all I can tell you.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I just can't get away from her statements. I have
to believe that all those people, all of them, are
lying about what she said. I could accept one or two,
maybe even three lying, but all the people, and all
of them are not law enforcement. I'd have to believe
Jennifer McCabe is lying, I'd have to believe O'Keefe's niece
(35:09):
is lying. I'd have to believe everybody's lying except Karen Reed.
I had a problem with that.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Have you heard that John O'Keefe might have turned in
some people in his department? Have you heard that rumor?
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yep, I've heard it for right now. That's all it is,
is a rumor. I heard that Oj Simpson's son was
the killer. I heard that too. Did that make it true? No?
I've heard a lot of things. A lot of things
come our way, Cheryl, but that doesn't mean they're all true.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Well, y'all, we gonna have to hang on and as
Nancy Gray says, and we wait.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
For justice too unfault. Yep, that's all we can do now.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Amen, all right, Well, I love you, I appreciate you. Bye, buddy, Bye, honey.
I'm Cheryl McCollum. And this is the crime round Up
with zones having m
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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