June 21, 2024 • 28 mins
Nancy and Sheryl open today’s CRU by discussing the importance of crime scene visits in prosecutorial work. Nancy recounts a memorable case involving a young boy murdered over a drug debt. Sheryl shares her experiences walking crime scenes with Nancy, highlighting the importance of understanding the full context of a crime. Nancy and Sheryl shift to the tragic case of Laralee Spear, abducted and murdered in 1994. They discuss the details of her case, the challenges faced in solving it, and the ongoing efforts to bring her killer to justice.
Call the Major Case Unit at 386-254-1537 or email ColdCaseUnitTips@volusiasheriff.gov if you have any tips on the Laralee Spear case.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:10) Today’s topic is the importance of crime scene visits
- (5:45) A recap of the Laralee Spear case
- (9:30) Sheryl details the crime scene where Laralee Spear was murdered
- (12:00) Theories about the murderer’s familiarity with the area
- (17:20) Don’t Be A Victim
- (23:10) Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
- (24:00) The significance of touch DNA evidence
- (28:00) Closing thoughts
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Y'all, welcome to the Crime Roundup with Nancy Grace and
Cheryl McCollum. Nancy Grace, we have got to talk about
the importance of visiting a crime scene. And I just
have to say, way back in the day when we
first started, nobody ever left the Golden Tower, as we
(00:34):
called it. Nobody. There was never a prosecutor own a
crime scene and then enter you. Oh my gosh, you
would come out. You would walk it, you would ask questions,
you would help, you would be able to just absorb
(00:54):
everything about it so that eventually you could paint the
picture for the jury.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You know, Cheryl, here's a great example of how that works.
I recall a murder. It was over a drug debt.
But before you think, oh, the victims just a doper.
The victim was a nineteen year old boy who bought
one hit of crack one hit five dollars bag in
(01:23):
front of his mother's home, and according to the defense,
an eyewitness could see that it wasn't the defendant. I
went to the scene, of course, to meet the mom,
who became a lifelong friend of mine. Oh, Cheryl, I
just got to tell you I love her so much.
(01:44):
She's passed away now, but I've walked into her living room.
It was, oh gosh, maybe five or six o'clock and
she was getting ready for supper. She let me in
and her whole living room was white, like this beautiful
white sofa and chairs and a white rug and she
(02:06):
had everything covered in that clear plastic so it won't
ruin your first for people like me.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
And I remember I sat down on a wick can.
Oh my goodness, I didn't move again. I just wrote
really fast. But oh, I just loved her so much.
But the point was, she was the one that came
and sat on the front road during the murder trial
through all the autopsy evidence and knitted. She knitted, and
(02:41):
I would.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Say, do you want to leave, because you know, I
know this is going to be very hard for you. No,
she sat there and looked at the jury the whole time.
I loved her so much.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Anyway of her at the scene, I went and I
saw a huge hedge and where the witness for the
defense was standing.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
There's no way they could have seen what happened. And
the doper murdered this boy over a twenty dollar drug debt.
A twenty dollar drug debt. My point is if you
don't go to the scene and do your homework, it
comes back to fight you in the neck. That witness
could have destroyed my case.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
And you wouldn't have known it you had gone there.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
No, exactly, Okay, now I know you're working your way
up to something, probably using my own words against me,
But go ahead. I'm prepared. I know your way. No,
you're sneaking way.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I just remember walking a scene with you and you
pointed out like I was uber concentrating on the scene,
and you were like, what's through those woods?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Okay, wait a minute, what scene was that?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
I don't remember the case, but you'll remember this part
because I was so concentrating on the scene, but you
said what through those woods? And I hesitated. I was
looking at you like I'm not sure what she's asking,
and you went, look, is it a church on the
other side? Is it a liquor store? It matters because
if the killer came from there, he might have been
(04:15):
doing something prior that we can connect, we can locate him.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
You know, for a moment, I thought you were talking
about a silver Comet trail where you know, the perp
had been hiding and attacking women when they would come
biking and jogging. You know, you really have to want
to hurt somebody to yank them off of to chase
them down on a bicycle and yank them off. I
guess you remember him, but he did.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
The importance of visiting the scene. You see time after
time after time. You don't see prosecutors at a scene.
You don't see people visit and then revisit and then
broaden their scope, which is so important. Like even Delphi
when you sent me out there. It's not just the bridge, y'all.
The important is on the other side of where the
(05:03):
bodies were found. Where do you come out? Is it
a cemetery, Is it a road? Is it a liquor store?
You need to know the killer knows, so you need
to know every pathway. Well, this past weekend, you know,
I went down to Belusia County, as you know, because
you were one of the ones that said, yeah, get
down there. We need to have eyes, boots on the ground.
(05:24):
And it's the case of Laura Lee's spear.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Oh my stars, just wait. That just gets me so distraught.
Laura Lee and Cheryl. I can't say it enough. I've
worked with Mark Klass a really long time. And as
you know, his daughter Polly was abducted and murdered, and
she was having a sleepover at her home where she
(05:47):
lived with her mother Mark. They were split. Mark lived
a short distance away, and this horrible guy I hat
didn't say his name, comes in, sneaks into the home
and takes Polly, sex assault and murders her. Okay, that's
the story. Mark class has devoted his life to helping
find missing people and solve and solved thomisides. And he
(06:10):
told me, and I verified it that over thirty percent
of all abductions, especially stranger abductions, is what I'm talking about,
Over thirty percent of those occur as it relates to
the school bus stop, getting to school, walking to school,
the pickup line, something about school, coming home on the bus.
(06:33):
I mean you remember being ombie who was miraculously found
after a decade having been taken off the school bus.
It just it goes on and on and on. You know,
you've got Douger, you just I can name them all
off the top of my head. J C. Duger. So
this goes on and on, and that's what happened here Laarlie,
(06:59):
just fifteen. She gets off the bus, April twenty five,
nineteen ninety four, and she is kidnapped, shot and killed
in DeLand, Florida. Her murder has never been sought. Now,
how can that be? Who is in that area of DeLand,
(07:20):
Florida near the school.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Bus and Nansie Her mama said she could set a
clock by this child. If she said she's going to
be home at one o'clock, she's hitting that door at
one o'clock. Well, from the school bus stop where they
would drop her off was a straight shot to her house.
The road is straight as an era. I mean it's
got some trees and some coverage. But she didn't have
(07:45):
to get off that main road, you know, Deerfoot.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, did you walk home from school? Because I did?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yes, absolutely I did.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I did too. We would catch the bus to school
and then walk home. Was a little over a mile
and I'd usually be with a group of everybody else
walking home. But sometimes, no, boy, have things changed.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Huh, things have so changed. We didn't even take the bus.
We walked the whole way, and of course, to save time,
cut through the woods. But the interesting thing about where
Laura Lee was in her family, she had an older
sister that wasn't on the bus anymore, she had graduated,
and then a younger sister that took another bus because
she was still in middle school that day. Laura Lee
(08:30):
was the only kid on her street that was in
high school that was on that bus. So she got
off by herself. Several people saw her. The bus driver
saw her start walking. There was a couple that was
selling plants kind of at the intersection. They saw her
and then nothing. Now, when I got to the scene,
(08:54):
I started where the bus dropped her off, drove to
her family home, then kept going to the crime scene.
To the crime scene is really unusual. It's way off
the road.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
And let me just guess you were doing a selfie
video the entire time that you want me to put
on TV? Is that right?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
That's right?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Please and call me the video. Go ahead and call.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
It exclusive footage.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
So Cheryl McCollum videos herself again.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Okay, that sounds perfect. The video files of Cheryl McCollum.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I want to circle back to something you said. You
said something super important. You said a lot of things important,
but the fact that you said her mother knew immediately
she gets off that bus at three point fifteen, as
I recall South Spring Garden Avenue. Is that right, South Spring.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Garden are cool?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Bus? Okay? Within thirty minutes. Thirty minutes, her mom, Barbara
knows something is wrong and reports her missing to police.
That's like my daughter. If I told you she has
a little job this summer, she and John David at
a local hospital. Now I know for a fact that
(10:14):
she will come straight home. My son. If I look
on Life three sixty, he's at Chick fil A getting
a lemonade. He's driving through the school to seek anybody's
playing basketball. I'm just watching him go round and around,
and finally he washes up at home. But Lucy come, Yeah,
she comes straight home. And that was like our household.
(10:37):
Were you the wanderer or did you? Or you the
predictable one?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Girl? You already know that, Sheila. You could set a
watch by Shelley. I mean, Shelley, it could be Wednesday,
you know what I mean. You just don't never know
when she's gonna come back. But you and I talk
all the time. Patterns, patterns, patterns. This child was a
to b. That bus dropped her off. She was in
her house within ten minutes the only time that was
(11:03):
not the case, she stopped at a neighbor's that she
passes that had horses and was petting the horses, and
her mama called that neighbor and said, Hey, it's Laura
Lee down there. She said, yeah, ain't say here, she's
petting the horses. And then she got home. So literally,
within ten minutes, mama was already calling neighbors to Belusia
County Sheriff's Department. Credit when Mama calls, they send deputies immediately.
(11:28):
When they can't find her in a reasonable amount of time,
they put a helicopter in the air. The helicopter is
the one that saw her. Now, when I was there,
this is the part that just punched me in the gut.
I drive from the bus stop to the crime scene.
In order to get to the crime scene A to
B you have to pass her house. So literally, this
(11:53):
killer grabs her and drives her past her house.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
What if he went the other way, Well, in.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Order to do that, he would have had to do
a U turn with her, go back out to the
main road and come out the other end.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Because he's so concerned about the traffic walls.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
No, but what I'm saying is I don't think he
would have taken that time. I think he was a
to b I think this was over very quickly. I
don't think he would have turned around, gone on the
main drag and then had to do a couple lefts
to come back in. Now where it was, there was
a home burned to the ground a year prior, and
nobody rebuilt. They just kept it that way. So it
(12:32):
was known to some of the local kids, and they
would go there and drink and smoke and carry on.
So it was known to a group of young people.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
And the railroad, remember and the railroad, and who knows
who hangs out around a railroad trestle, right.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And the railroad trestle is actually a little bit just
across the street, but at dead end from where the
crime scene was. So from the house to the railroad trestle,
I mean, you could hit a golf ball easy. It's
close enough for it to be a concern. But the
burned out house where her body was found is the
money tree.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
To me.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
What also stuck out for me was where the house
was built is like encased in trees. I mean it's secluded.
Nobody would have seen you in there.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Okay, can we back up, just a moment. This did
not just happen. There was not someone just driving by
and they see Laureley and go, oh, let me grab
her and murder her, shoot her multiple times, and leave
her lying out at this vacant house. Now crime scene. Okay,
what can we get to the black truck the lowriderm H.
(13:39):
So what I'm saying is the person had to know
that the school bus let out at that spot at
that time. I don't think that they were just driving
by and see her and grab her. I don't know.
I don't buy into that theory.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Agreed, And a passer buyer would not have known about
this house. You can't see it from the road. You
have to know it's there.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, and you know what, there's a really great aerial video.
I've been looking at the house. It is totally surrounded
by trees. You're right. So this is somebody that knows
about the house, and that knows about the bus stop
and knows what time the children get off the bus stop,
because you know, some some children don't get off until
four point thirty, believe it or not. Some get off
(14:22):
early too. You've got to know. But if he's willing
to wait and the trees gave him a perfect cover.
Perfect heh free kid just reminded me of Brian Coburger. Oh, Cheryl,
I got to tell you off on a tangent that
when you pass the crime scene there in Moscow, you
(14:45):
pass it, it's an incline, very very narrow streets. I
told you when I stood in front of the King
Road address where the four students were murdered, if I
could look straight over into the house across the street
and tell you what kind of dish washing liquid they
had sitting on your sink, their kitchen sink at the window.
(15:05):
So everything's really close. So you passed the house on
your right going up and incline, and you immediately turn
to the right and you go around the house and
up and there is a parking lot for all the
houses around the student housing and you can part there
and look through trees directly into their bedroom windows directly
(15:31):
and at night, which I did at night to make
sure with the rooms lit up in sight, you can
see everything. It's like watching your TV. So these trees
provided a perfect Heidi hole for Laura Lee's killer.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Absolutely. And it's interesting you brought that up because we
went back to her house so that I could really
from the street level. Her bedroom was on the second floor,
in the front of the house. From my car, not
even getting out of my car, you could see her
bedroom window plain as day.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Okay, stop right there. That just gave me a thought.
You know, my last book is Don't be a Victim.
I just thought about something. Lucy has a little friend,
and when we go visit a little friend, the little
friend's room is in the front of the house, and
you can look right in, even though she's on the
(16:26):
second floor, you can look right in and see her
in her room because we'll innocently go by and go, hey,
is Susie home, and we go, yeah, her lights on
in a room. That's a really good point about not
putting your children at the very front of your house
for everybody to look in and see. Note to self,
(16:47):
go ahead, right.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And it also gives us patterns and routines. Again, like
you're saying, the light switch is so easy, but we
call that watch points. So I was trying to figure
out where did this killer have stood or driven to
have a watch point of her. It was so easy.
There's a road that goes straight out in front of
(17:09):
her driveway down another way. He could have come from
that direction, He could have driven straight past. But to
your point, if he followed her just for a day
or two, or was a neighbor, or was somebody closed,
he might even know. Hey, she's the only kid that
gets off the school bus.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
You know what's interesting. Well, everything's interesting, but so many
details and details matter. Cheryl, her hands were tied, some
of her clothing most of it missing. It seemed like
someone had attempted to sex assault her, but to shoot
her multiple times in the back of the head to
(17:48):
have the necessary supply to tie her up. Somebody came prepared. Again,
this was not random. Who knows a fifteen year old
girl who in her circle. It doesn't have to be
her immediate circle, such as a parent or a brother
or an uncle. You go a step beyond that, to teachers,
(18:12):
to people at the grocery store, to pizza delivery guys,
to the custodian, to the creepydoote at the church. That's
where you go that next step. This is somebody that
knew her and wanted to rape her. When I believe
when she fought back that he killed her and ran.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Another reason I think the person was on the younger side,
like under twenty five, to shoot her, not strangle her,
not hearing the head of the rock, but to shoot
her multiple times up the wrist of somebody hearing it,
somebody being close by and going to see what the
world's going on. To your point, he came with a
loaded weapon. He came murder ready. The biggest thing to
(19:01):
me is the burned out house. A stranger, a passer buyer,
a transient would not have known that place was there.
This person did. So the suspect pool for me shrinks
pretty good.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Well, how much credence do you give to the lowrider
black truck.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
If it was only one witness? Maybe not that much.
But more than one witness saw it and described it independently.
So there was a truck there that was dark in color.
So I would you add it to my sheet, and
I would start looking again at neighbors, people a street
or two over, somebody at that high school that maybe
(19:38):
graduated the year before, maybe dropped out the year before.
People know that trunk.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Gosh, you're giving me a flashback to Tara Grinstead. Tarah
Grinstead and a really really small town in Georgia goes missing,
I toured her home with her mother. She was a
deep neck. She left everything in perfect edition, and she
would just even go to work. She worked to the school.
(20:06):
Her car was her baby. Her car was found with
the driver's seat pushed back, covered in mud. She would
never have allowed that ever. And things were a jar
in her bedroom. I think a lamp was turned over.
Just a few small things that screamed out to me.
(20:26):
She was abducted here, long story, short years past. And
it turns out to be former students at the school
where she taught. This could be a teacher, of course,
we know it's someone that's old enough to drive. I
doubt the person is over, say forty five. I doubt that.
(20:46):
So I would give it like you, I would say,
somewhere between nineteen nineteen and thirty four thirty five, a
black low writer car, a back blacklaw writer truck. So
where does that leave me? What? We've got that much
information and we can't figure it out, you.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Know, And here's the power of you. You are going
to utilize tonight at six o'clock your Merritt Street TV
show so that we can say, look, we need one
witness to come forward. Somebody knows Nancy, somebody knows that truck.
Somebody knows this killer. He's either talked, bragged, or got
(21:26):
drunk and talked about it, got high and talked about it.
Somebody knows. It's been thirty years. And by you putting
this on TV, you and the sheriff have a big
announcement tonight about what y'all are teaming up to do.
So I want everybody to tune into your show tonight,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, six o'clock Merritt Street, and
(21:50):
then everybody starts sharing the case of Laura Lee's spear
and see if we can't shake some trees, honey, and
find us one witness.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Also, it will be on YouTube one day later. It
will immediately be on Serious XM and the Crime Stories podcast.
If you can't be sitting in front of your TV
at a certain time and you don't record or don't
remember to record, you can listen any time on our podcast.
(22:20):
You know, if it hadn't been for the local law
enforcement acting so quickly, it could have been hours even
days before she was found. Now, correct me, if my mom,
But wasn't she spotted by a police helicopter?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yes, And again to their point. That's how seriously they
took this case. They didn't wait a week and go, okay,
well we'll get the helicopter now. No, they had that
thing up in there within forty minutes and found her
in ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
And what cane would have access to a gun.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Right, one that got it from their dad's closet, stole it.
And that's another thing. What teenage boy is going to
have a gun for more than five minutes and not
show it. Everybody knows, show it off, brag, shoot it
a couple of times. So again, I can guarantee if
this was a younger person, somebody knows, they know this
(23:15):
kid had a gun, they know he had access to
a gun, they know he had showed it off.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
What about ballistics matches, And we saw a great example
of ballistics matches working in the Delphi case. If that
a hole hadn't try to intimidate the girls.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
By racking that gun, yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Everybody calls it cycling through, But what it is is
racking a gun. Just here someone. You know, that's a
sound you'll never forget, Like a rattlesnake, You'll never forget
it once you hear it. Same thing with racking a gun,
like racking a shotgun. That's a sound everybody knows. If
he hadn't been such an a hole trying to scare
the girls, that bullet would not have been left there
(23:58):
on the scene to match back up. That bullet wasn't
even fired from his gun, and idiot still had the
gun in his home.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Well, I think they don't have obviously a gun to
crossjack and match it with, I know.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
But they can match a ballistics Do a ballistics match too,
other bullets found on crime scenes that's entered into a
ballistics database.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yep, absolutely, And listen, I think we need to talk
about Larlie just.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
One last thing. What about her being a cheerleader? Who
was watching her at those games? What freaky but freaky
guy was at the games watching her?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
That's right, great point, because this child you.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Were just about to say that, right, you know, Nancy,
I was just about to say that.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
And you owe so much of your career to me.
I mean, I know, I know, I really do, but no,
this child I mean speaking.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
In key yet remember that part. It was like a
school service organization and they would go out and do
good works. So this girl is scrubbed in sunshine, she's
all over town. She's sang in the church choir, she
played the piano. She was a cheerleader, just I mean
that's who she hung out with. Cheerleaders, kids in the band,
(25:22):
kids at church.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
She was just that child. I mean. Teachers liked her,
boys liked her, girls liked her.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Well, I've got a question, Cheryl McCollum. But we have
the sheriff on for the announcement. Are you going to
let him get one word in edgewise?
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Okay, good, Okay, I'm not. I'm going to say and
her thoughts on what the sheriff would be saved if
he could Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well, you know I am a pible, so I do
think there's some things the sheriff could be doing I'd
like to instruct him about. But you know, for people
that don't know me, you make me sound so. But listen,
here's the deal. This is the important thing to me,
and I just I want to thank you because you
(26:10):
always use your platform for such good And you know,
this is not a case that's high profile. This is
not a case that everybody's aware of. But this is
a case we can dog go and do something about
and I just appreciate you and the sheriff teaming up.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
You know what, Cheryl, just this morning, before I hooked
up with you on the air, I was praying and said,
asked for the Lord to just show me. What do
you want me to do? Here? I am? And you know,
even people like us, like me can do something good.
(26:48):
I mean, there are other people clearly more talented, more powerful,
just with so many advantages. But even think about it,
even a donkey was used for good. Amen, So if
a donkey can be used for good, I guess I
(27:09):
can be too.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
You talking, maybe think may that be a good shirt?
Use your ass for good?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Cheryl, all of our joking aside, I want to thank
you for lass owing the sheriff and bringing him in.
Anything we can do to ease the suffering of this family,
I want to do it. Let's go trying to solve.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
The mater, Cheryl, Let's go solve a murder.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Good Bye, buddy, bye, honey.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
I'm Cheryl McCollum. And this is the crime Roundup with
Zones Heaven
Y'all, welcome to the Crime Roundup with Nancy Grace and
Cheryl McCollum. Nancy Grace, we have got to talk about
the importance of visiting a crime scene. And I just
have to say, way back in the day when we
first started, nobody ever left the Golden Tower, as we
(00:34):
called it. Nobody. There was never a prosecutor own a
crime scene and then enter you. Oh my gosh, you
would come out. You would walk it, you would ask questions,
you would help, you would be able to just absorb
(00:54):
everything about it so that eventually you could paint the
picture for the jury.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You know, Cheryl, here's a great example of how that works.
I recall a murder. It was over a drug debt.
But before you think, oh, the victims just a doper.
The victim was a nineteen year old boy who bought
one hit of crack one hit five dollars bag in
(01:23):
front of his mother's home, and according to the defense,
an eyewitness could see that it wasn't the defendant. I
went to the scene, of course, to meet the mom,
who became a lifelong friend of mine. Oh, Cheryl, I
just got to tell you I love her so much.
(01:44):
She's passed away now, but I've walked into her living room.
It was, oh gosh, maybe five or six o'clock and
she was getting ready for supper. She let me in
and her whole living room was white, like this beautiful
white sofa and chairs and a white rug and she
(02:06):
had everything covered in that clear plastic so it won't
ruin your first for people like me.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
And I remember I sat down on a wick can.
Oh my goodness, I didn't move again. I just wrote
really fast. But oh, I just loved her so much.
But the point was, she was the one that came
and sat on the front road during the murder trial
through all the autopsy evidence and knitted. She knitted, and
(02:41):
I would.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Say, do you want to leave, because you know, I
know this is going to be very hard for you. No,
she sat there and looked at the jury the whole time.
I loved her so much.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Anyway of her at the scene, I went and I
saw a huge hedge and where the witness for the
defense was standing.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
There's no way they could have seen what happened. And
the doper murdered this boy over a twenty dollar drug debt.
A twenty dollar drug debt. My point is if you
don't go to the scene and do your homework, it
comes back to fight you in the neck. That witness
could have destroyed my case.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
And you wouldn't have known it you had gone there.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
No, exactly, Okay, now I know you're working your way
up to something, probably using my own words against me,
But go ahead. I'm prepared. I know your way. No,
you're sneaking way.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I just remember walking a scene with you and you
pointed out like I was uber concentrating on the scene,
and you were like, what's through those woods?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Okay, wait a minute, what scene was that?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
I don't remember the case, but you'll remember this part
because I was so concentrating on the scene, but you
said what through those woods? And I hesitated. I was
looking at you like I'm not sure what she's asking,
and you went, look, is it a church on the
other side? Is it a liquor store? It matters because
if the killer came from there, he might have been
(04:15):
doing something prior that we can connect, we can locate him.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
You know, for a moment, I thought you were talking
about a silver Comet trail where you know, the perp
had been hiding and attacking women when they would come
biking and jogging. You know, you really have to want
to hurt somebody to yank them off of to chase
them down on a bicycle and yank them off. I
guess you remember him, but he did.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
The importance of visiting the scene. You see time after
time after time. You don't see prosecutors at a scene.
You don't see people visit and then revisit and then
broaden their scope, which is so important. Like even Delphi
when you sent me out there. It's not just the bridge, y'all.
The important is on the other side of where the
(05:03):
bodies were found. Where do you come out? Is it
a cemetery, Is it a road? Is it a liquor store?
You need to know the killer knows, so you need
to know every pathway. Well, this past weekend, you know,
I went down to Belusia County, as you know, because
you were one of the ones that said, yeah, get
down there. We need to have eyes, boots on the ground.
(05:24):
And it's the case of Laura Lee's spear.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Oh my stars, just wait. That just gets me so distraught.
Laura Lee and Cheryl. I can't say it enough. I've
worked with Mark Klass a really long time. And as
you know, his daughter Polly was abducted and murdered, and
she was having a sleepover at her home where she
(05:47):
lived with her mother Mark. They were split. Mark lived
a short distance away, and this horrible guy I hat
didn't say his name, comes in, sneaks into the home
and takes Polly, sex assault and murders her. Okay, that's
the story. Mark class has devoted his life to helping
find missing people and solve and solved thomisides. And he
(06:10):
told me, and I verified it that over thirty percent
of all abductions, especially stranger abductions, is what I'm talking about,
Over thirty percent of those occur as it relates to
the school bus stop, getting to school, walking to school,
the pickup line, something about school, coming home on the bus.
(06:33):
I mean you remember being ombie who was miraculously found
after a decade having been taken off the school bus.
It just it goes on and on and on. You know,
you've got Douger, you just I can name them all
off the top of my head. J C. Duger. So
this goes on and on, and that's what happened here Laarlie,
(06:59):
just fifteen. She gets off the bus, April twenty five,
nineteen ninety four, and she is kidnapped, shot and killed
in DeLand, Florida. Her murder has never been sought. Now,
how can that be? Who is in that area of DeLand,
(07:20):
Florida near the school.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Bus and Nansie Her mama said she could set a
clock by this child. If she said she's going to
be home at one o'clock, she's hitting that door at
one o'clock. Well, from the school bus stop where they
would drop her off was a straight shot to her house.
The road is straight as an era. I mean it's
got some trees and some coverage. But she didn't have
(07:45):
to get off that main road, you know, Deerfoot.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, did you walk home from school? Because I did?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yes, absolutely I did.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I did too. We would catch the bus to school
and then walk home. Was a little over a mile
and I'd usually be with a group of everybody else
walking home. But sometimes, no, boy, have things changed.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Huh, things have so changed. We didn't even take the bus.
We walked the whole way, and of course, to save time,
cut through the woods. But the interesting thing about where
Laura Lee was in her family, she had an older
sister that wasn't on the bus anymore, she had graduated,
and then a younger sister that took another bus because
she was still in middle school that day. Laura Lee
(08:30):
was the only kid on her street that was in
high school that was on that bus. So she got
off by herself. Several people saw her. The bus driver
saw her start walking. There was a couple that was
selling plants kind of at the intersection. They saw her
and then nothing. Now, when I got to the scene,
(08:54):
I started where the bus dropped her off, drove to
her family home, then kept going to the crime scene.
To the crime scene is really unusual. It's way off
the road.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
And let me just guess you were doing a selfie
video the entire time that you want me to put
on TV? Is that right?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
That's right?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Please and call me the video. Go ahead and call.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
It exclusive footage.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
So Cheryl McCollum videos herself again.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Okay, that sounds perfect. The video files of Cheryl McCollum.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I want to circle back to something you said. You
said something super important. You said a lot of things important,
but the fact that you said her mother knew immediately
she gets off that bus at three point fifteen, as
I recall South Spring Garden Avenue. Is that right, South Spring.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Garden are cool?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Bus? Okay? Within thirty minutes. Thirty minutes, her mom, Barbara
knows something is wrong and reports her missing to police.
That's like my daughter. If I told you she has
a little job this summer, she and John David at
a local hospital. Now I know for a fact that
(10:14):
she will come straight home. My son. If I look
on Life three sixty, he's at Chick fil A getting
a lemonade. He's driving through the school to seek anybody's
playing basketball. I'm just watching him go round and around,
and finally he washes up at home. But Lucy come, Yeah,
she comes straight home. And that was like our household.
(10:37):
Were you the wanderer or did you? Or you the
predictable one?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Girl? You already know that, Sheila. You could set a
watch by Shelley. I mean, Shelley, it could be Wednesday,
you know what I mean. You just don't never know
when she's gonna come back. But you and I talk
all the time. Patterns, patterns, patterns. This child was a
to b. That bus dropped her off. She was in
her house within ten minutes the only time that was
(11:03):
not the case, she stopped at a neighbor's that she
passes that had horses and was petting the horses, and
her mama called that neighbor and said, Hey, it's Laura
Lee down there. She said, yeah, ain't say here, she's
petting the horses. And then she got home. So literally,
within ten minutes, mama was already calling neighbors to Belusia
County Sheriff's Department. Credit when Mama calls, they send deputies immediately.
(11:28):
When they can't find her in a reasonable amount of time,
they put a helicopter in the air. The helicopter is
the one that saw her. Now, when I was there,
this is the part that just punched me in the gut.
I drive from the bus stop to the crime scene.
In order to get to the crime scene A to
B you have to pass her house. So literally, this
(11:53):
killer grabs her and drives her past her house.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
What if he went the other way, Well, in.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Order to do that, he would have had to do
a U turn with her, go back out to the
main road and come out the other end.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Because he's so concerned about the traffic walls.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
No, but what I'm saying is I don't think he
would have taken that time. I think he was a
to b I think this was over very quickly. I
don't think he would have turned around, gone on the
main drag and then had to do a couple lefts
to come back in. Now where it was, there was
a home burned to the ground a year prior, and
nobody rebuilt. They just kept it that way. So it
(12:32):
was known to some of the local kids, and they
would go there and drink and smoke and carry on.
So it was known to a group of young people.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
And the railroad, remember and the railroad, and who knows
who hangs out around a railroad trestle, right.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And the railroad trestle is actually a little bit just
across the street, but at dead end from where the
crime scene was. So from the house to the railroad trestle,
I mean, you could hit a golf ball easy. It's
close enough for it to be a concern. But the
burned out house where her body was found is the
money tree.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
To me.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
What also stuck out for me was where the house
was built is like encased in trees. I mean it's secluded.
Nobody would have seen you in there.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Okay, can we back up, just a moment. This did
not just happen. There was not someone just driving by
and they see Laureley and go, oh, let me grab
her and murder her, shoot her multiple times, and leave
her lying out at this vacant house. Now crime scene. Okay,
what can we get to the black truck the lowriderm H.
(13:39):
So what I'm saying is the person had to know
that the school bus let out at that spot at
that time. I don't think that they were just driving
by and see her and grab her. I don't know.
I don't buy into that theory.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Agreed, And a passer buyer would not have known about
this house. You can't see it from the road. You
have to know it's there.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, and you know what, there's a really great aerial video.
I've been looking at the house. It is totally surrounded
by trees. You're right. So this is somebody that knows
about the house, and that knows about the bus stop
and knows what time the children get off the bus stop,
because you know, some some children don't get off until
four point thirty, believe it or not. Some get off
(14:22):
early too. You've got to know. But if he's willing
to wait and the trees gave him a perfect cover.
Perfect heh free kid just reminded me of Brian Coburger. Oh, Cheryl,
I got to tell you off on a tangent that
when you pass the crime scene there in Moscow, you
(14:45):
pass it, it's an incline, very very narrow streets. I
told you when I stood in front of the King
Road address where the four students were murdered, if I
could look straight over into the house across the street
and tell you what kind of dish washing liquid they
had sitting on your sink, their kitchen sink at the window.
(15:05):
So everything's really close. So you passed the house on
your right going up and incline, and you immediately turn
to the right and you go around the house and
up and there is a parking lot for all the
houses around the student housing and you can part there
and look through trees directly into their bedroom windows directly
(15:31):
and at night, which I did at night to make
sure with the rooms lit up in sight, you can
see everything. It's like watching your TV. So these trees
provided a perfect Heidi hole for Laura Lee's killer.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Absolutely. And it's interesting you brought that up because we
went back to her house so that I could really
from the street level. Her bedroom was on the second floor,
in the front of the house. From my car, not
even getting out of my car, you could see her
bedroom window plain as day.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Okay, stop right there. That just gave me a thought.
You know, my last book is Don't be a Victim.
I just thought about something. Lucy has a little friend,
and when we go visit a little friend, the little
friend's room is in the front of the house, and
you can look right in, even though she's on the
(16:26):
second floor, you can look right in and see her
in her room because we'll innocently go by and go, hey,
is Susie home, and we go, yeah, her lights on
in a room. That's a really good point about not
putting your children at the very front of your house
for everybody to look in and see. Note to self,
(16:47):
go ahead, right.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And it also gives us patterns and routines. Again, like
you're saying, the light switch is so easy, but we
call that watch points. So I was trying to figure
out where did this killer have stood or driven to
have a watch point of her. It was so easy.
There's a road that goes straight out in front of
(17:09):
her driveway down another way. He could have come from
that direction, He could have driven straight past. But to
your point, if he followed her just for a day
or two, or was a neighbor, or was somebody closed,
he might even know. Hey, she's the only kid that
gets off the school bus.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
You know what's interesting. Well, everything's interesting, but so many
details and details matter. Cheryl, her hands were tied, some
of her clothing most of it missing. It seemed like
someone had attempted to sex assault her, but to shoot
her multiple times in the back of the head to
(17:48):
have the necessary supply to tie her up. Somebody came prepared. Again,
this was not random. Who knows a fifteen year old
girl who in her circle. It doesn't have to be
her immediate circle, such as a parent or a brother
or an uncle. You go a step beyond that, to teachers,
(18:12):
to people at the grocery store, to pizza delivery guys,
to the custodian, to the creepydoote at the church. That's
where you go that next step. This is somebody that
knew her and wanted to rape her. When I believe
when she fought back that he killed her and ran.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Another reason I think the person was on the younger side,
like under twenty five, to shoot her, not strangle her,
not hearing the head of the rock, but to shoot
her multiple times up the wrist of somebody hearing it,
somebody being close by and going to see what the
world's going on. To your point, he came with a
loaded weapon. He came murder ready. The biggest thing to
(19:01):
me is the burned out house. A stranger, a passer buyer,
a transient would not have known that place was there.
This person did. So the suspect pool for me shrinks
pretty good.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Well, how much credence do you give to the lowrider
black truck.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
If it was only one witness? Maybe not that much.
But more than one witness saw it and described it independently.
So there was a truck there that was dark in color.
So I would you add it to my sheet, and
I would start looking again at neighbors, people a street
or two over, somebody at that high school that maybe
(19:38):
graduated the year before, maybe dropped out the year before.
People know that trunk.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Gosh, you're giving me a flashback to Tara Grinstead. Tarah
Grinstead and a really really small town in Georgia goes missing,
I toured her home with her mother. She was a
deep neck. She left everything in perfect edition, and she
would just even go to work. She worked to the school.
(20:06):
Her car was her baby. Her car was found with
the driver's seat pushed back, covered in mud. She would
never have allowed that ever. And things were a jar
in her bedroom. I think a lamp was turned over.
Just a few small things that screamed out to me.
(20:26):
She was abducted here, long story, short years past. And
it turns out to be former students at the school
where she taught. This could be a teacher, of course,
we know it's someone that's old enough to drive. I
doubt the person is over, say forty five. I doubt that.
(20:46):
So I would give it like you, I would say,
somewhere between nineteen nineteen and thirty four thirty five, a
black low writer car, a back blacklaw writer truck. So
where does that leave me? What? We've got that much
information and we can't figure it out, you.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Know, And here's the power of you. You are going
to utilize tonight at six o'clock your Merritt Street TV
show so that we can say, look, we need one
witness to come forward. Somebody knows Nancy, somebody knows that truck.
Somebody knows this killer. He's either talked, bragged, or got
(21:26):
drunk and talked about it, got high and talked about it.
Somebody knows. It's been thirty years. And by you putting
this on TV, you and the sheriff have a big
announcement tonight about what y'all are teaming up to do.
So I want everybody to tune into your show tonight,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, six o'clock Merritt Street, and
(21:50):
then everybody starts sharing the case of Laura Lee's spear
and see if we can't shake some trees, honey, and
find us one witness.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Also, it will be on YouTube one day later. It
will immediately be on Serious XM and the Crime Stories podcast.
If you can't be sitting in front of your TV
at a certain time and you don't record or don't
remember to record, you can listen any time on our podcast.
(22:20):
You know, if it hadn't been for the local law
enforcement acting so quickly, it could have been hours even
days before she was found. Now, correct me, if my mom,
But wasn't she spotted by a police helicopter?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yes, And again to their point. That's how seriously they
took this case. They didn't wait a week and go, okay,
well we'll get the helicopter now. No, they had that
thing up in there within forty minutes and found her
in ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
And what cane would have access to a gun.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Right, one that got it from their dad's closet, stole it.
And that's another thing. What teenage boy is going to
have a gun for more than five minutes and not
show it. Everybody knows, show it off, brag, shoot it
a couple of times. So again, I can guarantee if
this was a younger person, somebody knows, they know this
(23:15):
kid had a gun, they know he had access to
a gun, they know he had showed it off.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
What about ballistics matches, And we saw a great example
of ballistics matches working in the Delphi case. If that
a hole hadn't try to intimidate the girls.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
By racking that gun, yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Everybody calls it cycling through, But what it is is
racking a gun. Just here someone. You know, that's a
sound you'll never forget, Like a rattlesnake, You'll never forget
it once you hear it. Same thing with racking a gun,
like racking a shotgun. That's a sound everybody knows. If
he hadn't been such an a hole trying to scare
the girls, that bullet would not have been left there
(23:58):
on the scene to match back up. That bullet wasn't
even fired from his gun, and idiot still had the
gun in his home.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Well, I think they don't have obviously a gun to
crossjack and match it with, I know.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
But they can match a ballistics Do a ballistics match too,
other bullets found on crime scenes that's entered into a
ballistics database.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yep, absolutely, And listen, I think we need to talk
about Larlie just.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
One last thing. What about her being a cheerleader? Who
was watching her at those games? What freaky but freaky
guy was at the games watching her?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
That's right, great point, because this child you.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Were just about to say that, right, you know, Nancy,
I was just about to say that.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
And you owe so much of your career to me.
I mean, I know, I know, I really do, but no,
this child I mean speaking.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
In key yet remember that part. It was like a
school service organization and they would go out and do
good works. So this girl is scrubbed in sunshine, she's
all over town. She's sang in the church choir, she
played the piano. She was a cheerleader, just I mean
that's who she hung out with. Cheerleaders, kids in the band,
(25:22):
kids at church.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
She was just that child. I mean. Teachers liked her,
boys liked her, girls liked her.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Well, I've got a question, Cheryl McCollum. But we have
the sheriff on for the announcement. Are you going to
let him get one word in edgewise?
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Okay, good, Okay, I'm not. I'm going to say and
her thoughts on what the sheriff would be saved if
he could Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well, you know I am a pible, so I do
think there's some things the sheriff could be doing I'd
like to instruct him about. But you know, for people
that don't know me, you make me sound so. But listen,
here's the deal. This is the important thing to me,
and I just I want to thank you because you
(26:10):
always use your platform for such good And you know,
this is not a case that's high profile. This is
not a case that everybody's aware of. But this is
a case we can dog go and do something about
and I just appreciate you and the sheriff teaming up.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
You know what, Cheryl, just this morning, before I hooked
up with you on the air, I was praying and said,
asked for the Lord to just show me. What do
you want me to do? Here? I am? And you know,
even people like us, like me can do something good.
(26:48):
I mean, there are other people clearly more talented, more powerful,
just with so many advantages. But even think about it,
even a donkey was used for good. Amen, So if
a donkey can be used for good, I guess I
(27:09):
can be too.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
You talking, maybe think may that be a good shirt?
Use your ass for good?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Cheryl, all of our joking aside, I want to thank
you for lass owing the sheriff and bringing him in.
Anything we can do to ease the suffering of this family,
I want to do it. Let's go trying to solve.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
The mater, Cheryl, Let's go solve a murder.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Good Bye, buddy, bye, honey.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
I'm Cheryl McCollum. And this is the crime Roundup with
Zones Heaven
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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