In today’s CRU, Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum examine the latest developments in the case of Rex Heuermann, the alleged Long Island Serial Killer. New evidence has surfaced linking Heuermann to additional victims, including a detailed playbook that outlines his methods for capturing and disposing of his victims. The hosts discuss the evolution of Heuermann's modus operandi and compare it to other notorious killers like Ted Bundy.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:10) Sheryl gives the latest on the Long Island Serial Killer case
- (1:00) Nancy discusses new evidence
- (3:45) Comparison to Ted Bundy's methods
- (5:20) Speculation on additional burial sites
- (8:00) Nancy discusses the sexual pleasure L.I.S.K sought after
- (15:00) Impact on Heuermann's family
- (19:00) Nancy and Sheryl discuss speculations about the killing process
- (22:30) Sheryl reminisces from crime con 2024
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Crime Roundup with Nancy Grace and Cheryl McCollum. Today,
Rex Huerman, the Long Island serial killer accused, had two
additional victims tied to him. Y'all get ready, y'all better
hang on because this is a rodeo. Nancy, jump on
in here, honey, Cheryl.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
The man's got DNA. The man's got the same location,
the same vehicle. Now we've got a play by play
handbook taken out of his home about how to catch victims,
how to catch them better the next time, even reminding
himself to get a better night's rest the night before
so there will be more time to quote play, to
(00:53):
get thicker rope, to decrease sound. You know, you can
keep saying, let edged and accused, but DNA doesn't lie.
Cheryl will come, you know, Cheryl. Many people have argued
since the bodies were first discovered that the Long Island
serial Killer and the butcher of Manival or in fact
(01:14):
two people. That is not true, As I've screamed from
the get go, I believe that that theory came about
because of the different mos modus operandi method of operation.
We see that these so called butcher of manerbil Akaa
Rexed Hureman would I think I could explain what was happening.
(01:37):
I think at the beginning Hureeman believed he had to
totally destroy any and all evidence connecting him to the bodies,
including watching the body and watching out body cavities as
is detailed in his playbook that we now know has
been found in his home. He would also cut off
their hands, their heads, get rid of distinguishing markings like
(02:00):
tattoos or birthmarks. That's how he got rid of the evidence.
Then I believe he got a little too comfy. It
was going a little too well, too much success, and
he became blase. Then he changes mo as sorry, just
dumping the bodies along, you'll go beach in a row,
essentially like a cemetery. It's always been making tention that
(02:25):
Long Island serial killer at Butcher of Manerville are one
and the same, and now we see that all he
did was get sloppy.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
If this was our case, and I came into your
office and I said, let me tell you something. We
can now tie him to nineteen ninety three. You are
adding decades. We have now expanded the kill zone the
area and like you're saying the MO and the signatures.
If you look at an MO, all that means is
(02:54):
the person is learning how to do something better. So
when they were going to burglarize a home and they
buzzed out the window and then they realized, wait a minute,
the victim was alerted and called the police. So then
they say, hey, I'm going to come and get some
glass cutter. So now they can't hear me when I
get the glass out of the way so I can
unlock the window or the door. That's all that DMO is.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Before I go into what we learned in court today,
I want to talk about a scary scenario that I've
been thinking about. We know serial killers very often do
the same thing over and over. We know now because
body parts from a victim I've been found not only
in Gilgo Beach but also Mannerful, the same victim body
(03:40):
parts in two different places. Of course it's the same killer.
So we see Rex Huerman and I'm breaking out of
the mold. As far as the burial grounds, here's my
fear and my suspicion. I think, whether we find it
or not, Cheryl, there is another burial ground out there.
I think there are more victims, and I think there's
(04:02):
another burial ground. And mark my words, it may not
be today, it may not be tomorrow, it may not
be this year or next year, but there will be
other victims found because we see him. Why do I
say that, Because we see him already leaving the Mannibal
area burial area, and we see him going to kill go.
We see activity in multiple places, and I guarantee you
(04:25):
there's another place I don't know where.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
We got thirty years now. And not only are there
going to be more victims, I think you're gonna see
twenty five thirty victims before this thing is completely done.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
All you have to do is go back and see
whenever his wife left town. That's when there's gonna be killings,
at least one killings, and remember one killing. And remember
she's from out of the country, so her trips wouldn't
be a weekend at grandma's. Her trusts will be two weeks,
three weeks a month at Grandma's out of the country
(04:58):
with the children.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Plenty of time to do his stalking, his hunting, his prep,
the days of torture and then the body prep and
then disposal. But you know, I want to talk to
you a little bit about the John Douglas book that
was there.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I want to talk about you. I want to talk
to you about the thumbpins. He even wrote a note
to himself, I'm sure you've seen Dexter. It's one of
the only things that got me through my pregnancy. Dexter,
as we all know, the star of a fantasy about
a good guy serial killer is the only way I
can put it. Would always wrap the room and plastic
(05:33):
before he dismembered, killed and dismembered his victim. In this case,
we see Hureman writing to himself a note that says,
don't use tape to hold up the canvas, use thumbtacks.
Words to that effect. So he would actually cote the rooms,
(05:56):
cure the room. And that's why for a says couldn't
find as much DNA hair fibers as they had hoped
to find of the victims, because this guy was totally
wrapping the room, apparently in canvas, and then I believe
burning it because notes he took for himself set to
(06:19):
burn clothing, burn the clothing that he wore, so extrapolating,
he would burn the canvas that he draped the room.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
The preparation, the time that he put into it, the
time that he took with the victim, the time that
he took with the disposal. I'm going to say again
what I have said from the very beginning. This is
all he does. There ain't no such thing as a
part times hero killer. This is what he spent his
money on. This is what he spent his time doing.
(06:49):
Everything he did was thinking about killing.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
That's all he was thinking about. He was thinking about
getting off. It was thinking of about the sexual pleasure
and the ejaculation that would be his main goal in stalking, capturing,
woo wooing the victim. Because I personally spoke to one
(07:15):
of the women that he contacted. They went out to
a restaurant. He tried to get her to go with
him out to Long Island. He made all these plans
about how she would get there, but no plans about
how she would get back home. As she told me
right to my face, she got totally skewed out and
(07:35):
ran out of the restaurant. So it was a wooing
process where he would identify the victim, contact the victim,
woo the victim, trick the victim subdue her torture, her,
keep her for sex torture for days on end, and
then he would relive it by the planning notes and
(07:58):
starting the process all over again. I mean, think about it.
I'm not a hunter, But what about these men that
get up in those of what do you say, dear Sands.
I guess you know he's with me, David, but you
like to say he or do you want everybody to
y else? To shut up? David? At fourthly he just
actually says, shut up David. Now that that's what I
call Stockholm says, we're right there. But I mean, can
(08:21):
you know these guys that will go out no offense.
I don't care you go hunt. All you want to
is just not for me, dear saying yes, dear San
They'll sit up there in a raincoat for days and
they love it. See I would not like that, but
I want them to enjoy themselves. He Rex Huerman loved
(08:42):
the taste and he got off on it.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I want to get back to the John Douglas book.
He's got this book on his coffee table that is
all about mutilation and sexual violence. Reading John Douglas's book
was poorn to him, no doubt about it.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I'm just thinking about that, I think of Okay, here's something.
Every time I try a case, especially in murder case,
I'd learn something new, and I would not only learn
something new, I would identify things that I was doing
completely wrong. That's Awkwards. Well, you know people have these
horrible dreams where they show up to class and uh,
(09:30):
they're naked. Okay, you know I have a recurring dream
where I stand up in front of a huge you know,
eighty people and a judge, that defendant, a fleet of
defense layers, and I stand up to start the impaneling
process for the jury, and I can I remember the
foreign paneling questions? You know by heart, right, I've had
that same horrible dream over and over, and I'm immediately
(09:51):
started looking for al Dixon. Do you remember that, God
rest his soul immediately, you know, trying to find el
Dixon to send me a copy of the grand jury
and paneling quest This is the same dream over and
over and over again. Bottom line, you learn your own
errors and you try to perfect them next time around.
(10:12):
That's what Hureman was doing.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I believe that, But I also believe there's an element
he could not get the level of twistedness that he wanted.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Is that a word?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
It is now? Now think about it, though, Nancy. Everything
he could find online would be made up. This was
real victims, real cases that he could read about and
fantasize about and then go try.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
I'm just wondering, you know. We know they went back
La law Enforce and went back into human's home in
the last days. What could they possibly have missed the
first time they practically tore the whole thing apart. I
just wonder what, of course we'll we'll find out when
this goes to trial. But that floppy discasically a handbook
(11:01):
of how to that he himself wrote, I cannot wait
to see what all what is in there? And I
would I would give you one hundred dollars Cheryl McCollum
if I could hand that over to the jury and
go through it page I'd love to blow up each
(11:22):
page and look at each word, even the word selection
of how he referred to the.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Victimy line, word for word, yep.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Word for a word, Cheryl oh h l N. Nobody's
leaving this courtroom through every page of that, every page.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Because again, that's what he wrote, that's what he was
concentrating on. That's what was important to him, this target.
Don't forget the body washed, don't forget rope, don't forget
to get.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Some can just go over it just that quickly. When
you say body wash, you may me think I'm in
some fancy hotel and they have those little containers of
quote body wash, a liquid soap. It sounds to me
like I'm squirting some sweet smelling, flowery, pinkish colored jel
or maybe green like peppermine. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
No, he was.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Cleaning out every havity, every body, havity, everything under the fingernails,
chopping the hands off so there would be absolutely no
phrase hadas left behind. And you call it a body wash.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I believe that's what he called it. That's why I
said it that way in his manifesto. So he's reminding
himself to do these things, to go get these you know,
the cat litter and everything.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I believe I would call this a manifesto. I would
call this a how to.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Well, they called it a blueprint, which.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I guess, yes, yes, really light, which goes back to
his architectural roots.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Mm hmmm. This show does just like I think the
way he put the victims out, I think a lot
of those things. He could not stop being who he
was at his core.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Let's talk about that again. I love the way you
described that, the way he laid out the victims.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
They're all lined up just on this shore edge and
it if you think about it, it looks like a city.
Those are his buildings, those are his masterpieces. To me,
that's what it looks like. The way there's space. You've
got some you know, gathered close here. You've got one
off kind of to the side, and it goes straight
down is parallel right with the road.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Just wondering how his wife and children are responding to this,
because I know she's doing a reality show and making
a lot of money off of it too, And I
guess there'll be a memoir I Married a serial Killer,
My life with the Long Island serial Killer. But of
course that's I got to come out to lifeter the trial,
(13:57):
and she's going to have to have a lot of
joll house business that she can talk about. And then
I guess some TV stud network will pick it up
and make it a mini series. That's what's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, you're talking about three hundred and fifty electronic devices.
You're talking about different computers where he's put literally the
playbook of how he does it. You're talking about putting
up tarts. Now that's great, but you and I both
know cleaning a crime, saying, is nearly impossible. I don't
(14:31):
care what you put down. I don't care how well
you think you've got everything covered with tarts and everything else.
One splatter, one hair, one fingernail. It's hard for me
to believe there wasn't evidence all over that house. And
I want to ask you something. Why do you think
they took paint chips from the outside of that house
(14:54):
and wenda did.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
The paint Did they find something? Wow, examination under a microscope,
maybe a mass spictometer that could match up to the
paint hips. There had to be here's.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
What's fascinating to me. On the outside of the house.
So that means she was either trying to crawl out
a window. I mean, how does a paint chip get
on you from the outside of a house.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Well, it could have been something as simple as a struggle,
because remember I believe I recall a witness stating they
saw a woman naked running for the house. They saw
it was one of the victims or running from the house.
I believe it's a taxi cab driver. Somebody in the
(15:42):
camp saw a woman running out of the house. I
can't remember if she was clothed or unclothed, And I'm wondering,
was there some sort of altercation where the woman the
victim was pushed up against the house. Maybe she had
a cut or an a brage into her elbow or
the back of her arm, or the back of her
(16:03):
head where she was pushed up against the house. All
these years later, they get one tiny particle of a
chemical of paint and you.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Can see the difference in paint in layer. We did
it all the time with car accidents, no question. I
just didn't know if it was, like you're saying, through
a struggle or through an escape attempt.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But same thing where the part of the body comes
in contact with it, and it would have to be
forceful for that to stay, to adhere to the skin
and be able to be discovered this many years later.
And you know, that's really amazing, Cheryl, that all these
(16:49):
years later, these women's bodies will be States Witness Number one.
What their bodies will reveal or is it clues because
they got to give it to Huerman. He got rid
of a lot of evidence. Then he would leave a
(17:10):
glaring clues like the avalanche, you know, the truck sitting
part out in front of his house.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
One question we had early on was where they killed,
and I mean really early on in the truck in
the woods on the side of the road, like where
were they killed? Well, now we know with the surgical
blankets that are leak proof by the way, that even
in transport they were bleeding. And for some of these
(17:42):
women that he strangled and all that we know now
some were stabbed with straight edge weaponry. So you've got
this picture that has been painted now that absolutely he
used the home, no doubt about it. He took great time.
He took more time than maybe we even originally thought.
I thought sometimes maybe it was overnight, but now I
(18:05):
believe absolutely it was days.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Oh. I think these women were tortured for days on end.
And I think that every time his wife went out
of town he would get a new victim.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I do too, But I also think there was maybe
one or two that he just couldn't wait for her
to leave. And he was a real quick like hit
it and quit it kind of thing. He didn't have
time to do a three day deal. But I don't
think he only killed when they were out of town.
I don't think he's got that kind of self control.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I don't know. I don't know how he could. Well, yeah,
you're right, you're right, because they were not all dismembered,
it could be a very quick process. He wouldn't have
to wait every time. Yeah, you're right, And.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
That's what I was saying. Like Bundy, he dismembered some,
but he didn't dismember all of them. Some he just
bludgeons real quick with the logs. Some he strangled with
their own pantyhose. I think he is such a sexual
pervert that he was trying all kinds of stuff different times,
and he didn't always have the opportunity to have the
house to himself. And I think he made amends.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
You know what, little mon fact Bundy would actually post
mortem bathe the victims, put on their put on makeup,
apply makeup to them, and redo their hair. Oh. I
don't know how you and I can even function in society, Cheryl,
when we have to analyze this all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Here's how we do it. We ain't gonna end on
something negative. I want to do a real quick crime
con roundup, and I got to talk about you. I've
told you this story before, but.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
You do know I'm going about, let's say, seventy nine
miles an hour on the interstate, trying to get home
to the children right now, and here I am talking
about Ted Bludee having sex with a dead body and
end applying makeup to it. Dear lord, I got to
get this out of my head before I get home.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Well, I'm gonna do it right now. So you know,
me and Walt early on we were we didn't have cable.
You know, I did not realize how famous you got
so quick because we didn't have cable. Well, let me
tell you something, sister, kay. When I get into that
room and I saw your buddy John and he's like, yeah,
she's right in there, and I said, well, I hadn't
(20:16):
even seen her all weekend. I got to go, you know, Hugger,
real quick, y'all. I walked in a room, Nellie.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
When there was a te TV camera going up until
then you right by me in the hallway.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
That's right. I didn't know who she was. Seriously, that
place was as big as an airplane hanger, and people
were wrapped around it, and then out the door, down
the hall, and y'all here was the funniest thing ever.
I was kind of blown away because I'm like, look
at all these people that just want to say hey
to her, just want to meet her, just you know, deservedly.
(20:51):
So but I'm just saying, there was thousands of people.
So I walk up and I'm kind of standing to
the side because Nancy. One thing that blows my mind
about you is you speak to every single person. You
don't rush them, you don't get in a hurry, and
you are not a flight attendant. You know, a flight
attendant's thank you for flying, good ny, goodbye, thank you
for flying, good.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Night, goodbye.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
You don't do that. You say something unique to every person,
which is mind boggling. But then you catch my eye
and you say, hey, come here, let's do a quick video.
And what do you say, shut up, David so here.
So we had we had I don't know, two thousand
(21:33):
people crack up with us at the same time. But
I just appreciated watching you. You're so gracious and you're
so kind.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I appreciate that. But it's not me. It is not me.
You know why people are in a line. People are
in a line because somewhere along the way, I was
lucky enough, blessed enough to get to tell a story.
And whatever story that was, it touched them like it
touches me and you. Every single time it touched them,
(22:03):
that touched their lives and maybe it changed something about
their life. Because I'm gonna tell you, you know, the
first thing I'm gonna do when I get home tonight,
I'm gonna find Lucy. I'm gonna find John David. I'm
gonna force them into a group PUG which they hate.
I'm gonna hold one. It's very awkward for them, not
(22:24):
for me. I'm gonna hold on like there is no tomorrow.
And every case I cover makes me appreciate my time
with them, and my time was shut up David even.
And what I'm saying is it's not It really is
not me at some moment, some story, some case, some
crime victim, some moment when we've actually found a child
(22:48):
we're looking for, or we've had a happy resolution for
once or twice. And that's that's why people wait. That's
what they want justice. They want the right thing to happen.
They want that child to found, they want that ahold
to go to jail the rest of his life, and
I've just been lucky enough to get to tell those stories.
(23:08):
That's what it is right there.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Well, I love that you said it that way, but
you know, there's a lot of hard work and that luck,
and there's a lot of long nights and a lot
of tears and blood and sweat. So I just appreciate you.
And I tell people all the time that being in
this job, I know for a fact, has made me
a better parent, has made me a better wife. I
don't take anything for granted, and that includes your friendship.
(23:33):
So I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Cheerl Are we ever ever gonna sit down and have
a cup of coffee? I guess not. Why do I
even keep saying that that's never gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Stop offering coffee and I might show up.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
You know I'm a teacher. You know that I'm sorry.
I guess I got slip a little bit of something
into your decaf, and don't think of getting falterers. You
know what I've been doing. Hopefully he's not paying any attention.
He's got his earpiece in his ear for years and
years and years. David thinks he's getting Folgers instant. No way.
I go to Dollar Tree, I get like ten and
(24:11):
I keep putting it into the Folgress could take her everyone.
This coffee is so good, I'm like, it ain't just
the best ever.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
That man can't get a birthday gift. He can't get
a decent he can't get a decent cup of coffee.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
He doesn't know any better. He's over there just listening
to some book on tape, not paying one bit of
attention to what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I'm so happy.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
So yes, you can come over and have some Dollar
Tree gets some coffee with me.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yep, we're gonna do it next week and then we'll
talk about it.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Okay, we'll talk about it.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Bye, love you, honey. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is
the Crime Round Up with Zones Heaven
Speaker 2 (25:00):
No
Welcome to the Crime Roundup with Nancy Grace and Cheryl McCollum. Today,
Rex Huerman, the Long Island serial killer accused, had two
additional victims tied to him. Y'all get ready, y'all better
hang on because this is a rodeo. Nancy, jump on
in here, honey, Cheryl.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
The man's got DNA. The man's got the same location,
the same vehicle. Now we've got a play by play
handbook taken out of his home about how to catch victims,
how to catch them better the next time, even reminding
himself to get a better night's rest the night before
so there will be more time to quote play, to
(00:53):
get thicker rope, to decrease sound. You know, you can
keep saying, let edged and accused, but DNA doesn't lie.
Cheryl will come, you know, Cheryl. Many people have argued
since the bodies were first discovered that the Long Island
serial Killer and the butcher of Manival or in fact
(01:14):
two people. That is not true, As I've screamed from
the get go, I believe that that theory came about
because of the different mos modus operandi method of operation.
We see that these so called butcher of manerbil Akaa
Rexed Hureman would I think I could explain what was happening.
(01:37):
I think at the beginning Hureeman believed he had to
totally destroy any and all evidence connecting him to the bodies,
including watching the body and watching out body cavities as
is detailed in his playbook that we now know has
been found in his home. He would also cut off
their hands, their heads, get rid of distinguishing markings like
(02:00):
tattoos or birthmarks. That's how he got rid of the evidence.
Then I believe he got a little too comfy. It
was going a little too well, too much success, and
he became blase. Then he changes mo as sorry, just
dumping the bodies along, you'll go beach in a row,
essentially like a cemetery. It's always been making tention that
(02:25):
Long Island serial killer at Butcher of Manerville are one
and the same, and now we see that all he
did was get sloppy.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
If this was our case, and I came into your
office and I said, let me tell you something. We
can now tie him to nineteen ninety three. You are
adding decades. We have now expanded the kill zone the
area and like you're saying the MO and the signatures.
If you look at an MO, all that means is
(02:54):
the person is learning how to do something better. So
when they were going to burglarize a home and they
buzzed out the window and then they realized, wait a minute,
the victim was alerted and called the police. So then
they say, hey, I'm going to come and get some
glass cutter. So now they can't hear me when I
get the glass out of the way so I can
unlock the window or the door. That's all that DMO is.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Before I go into what we learned in court today,
I want to talk about a scary scenario that I've
been thinking about. We know serial killers very often do
the same thing over and over. We know now because
body parts from a victim I've been found not only
in Gilgo Beach but also Mannerful, the same victim body
(03:40):
parts in two different places. Of course it's the same killer.
So we see Rex Huerman and I'm breaking out of
the mold. As far as the burial grounds, here's my
fear and my suspicion. I think, whether we find it
or not, Cheryl, there is another burial ground out there.
I think there are more victims, and I think there's
(04:02):
another burial ground. And mark my words, it may not
be today, it may not be tomorrow, it may not
be this year or next year, but there will be
other victims found because we see him. Why do I
say that, Because we see him already leaving the Mannibal
area burial area, and we see him going to kill go.
We see activity in multiple places, and I guarantee you
(04:25):
there's another place I don't know where.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
We got thirty years now. And not only are there
going to be more victims, I think you're gonna see
twenty five thirty victims before this thing is completely done.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
All you have to do is go back and see
whenever his wife left town. That's when there's gonna be killings,
at least one killings, and remember one killing. And remember
she's from out of the country, so her trips wouldn't
be a weekend at grandma's. Her trusts will be two weeks,
three weeks a month at Grandma's out of the country
(04:58):
with the children.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Plenty of time to do his stalking, his hunting, his prep,
the days of torture and then the body prep and
then disposal. But you know, I want to talk to
you a little bit about the John Douglas book that
was there.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I want to talk about you. I want to talk
to you about the thumbpins. He even wrote a note
to himself, I'm sure you've seen Dexter. It's one of
the only things that got me through my pregnancy. Dexter,
as we all know, the star of a fantasy about
a good guy serial killer is the only way I
can put it. Would always wrap the room and plastic
(05:33):
before he dismembered, killed and dismembered his victim. In this case,
we see Hureman writing to himself a note that says,
don't use tape to hold up the canvas, use thumbtacks.
Words to that effect. So he would actually cote the rooms,
(05:56):
cure the room. And that's why for a says couldn't
find as much DNA hair fibers as they had hoped
to find of the victims, because this guy was totally
wrapping the room, apparently in canvas, and then I believe
burning it because notes he took for himself set to
(06:19):
burn clothing, burn the clothing that he wore, so extrapolating,
he would burn the canvas that he draped the room.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
The preparation, the time that he put into it, the
time that he took with the victim, the time that
he took with the disposal. I'm going to say again
what I have said from the very beginning. This is
all he does. There ain't no such thing as a
part times hero killer. This is what he spent his
money on. This is what he spent his time doing.
(06:49):
Everything he did was thinking about killing.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
That's all he was thinking about. He was thinking about
getting off. It was thinking of about the sexual pleasure
and the ejaculation that would be his main goal in stalking, capturing,
woo wooing the victim. Because I personally spoke to one
(07:15):
of the women that he contacted. They went out to
a restaurant. He tried to get her to go with
him out to Long Island. He made all these plans
about how she would get there, but no plans about
how she would get back home. As she told me
right to my face, she got totally skewed out and
(07:35):
ran out of the restaurant. So it was a wooing
process where he would identify the victim, contact the victim,
woo the victim, trick the victim subdue her torture, her,
keep her for sex torture for days on end, and
then he would relive it by the planning notes and
(07:58):
starting the process all over again. I mean, think about it.
I'm not a hunter, But what about these men that
get up in those of what do you say, dear Sands.
I guess you know he's with me, David, but you
like to say he or do you want everybody to
y else? To shut up? David? At fourthly he just
actually says, shut up David. Now that that's what I
call Stockholm says, we're right there. But I mean, can
(08:21):
you know these guys that will go out no offense.
I don't care you go hunt. All you want to
is just not for me, dear saying yes, dear San
They'll sit up there in a raincoat for days and
they love it. See I would not like that, but
I want them to enjoy themselves. He Rex Huerman loved
(08:42):
the taste and he got off on it.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I want to get back to the John Douglas book.
He's got this book on his coffee table that is
all about mutilation and sexual violence. Reading John Douglas's book
was poorn to him, no doubt about it.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I'm just thinking about that, I think of Okay, here's something.
Every time I try a case, especially in murder case,
I'd learn something new, and I would not only learn
something new, I would identify things that I was doing
completely wrong. That's Awkwards. Well, you know people have these
horrible dreams where they show up to class and uh,
(09:30):
they're naked. Okay, you know I have a recurring dream
where I stand up in front of a huge you know,
eighty people and a judge, that defendant, a fleet of
defense layers, and I stand up to start the impaneling
process for the jury, and I can I remember the
foreign paneling questions? You know by heart, right, I've had
that same horrible dream over and over, and I'm immediately
(09:51):
started looking for al Dixon. Do you remember that, God
rest his soul immediately, you know, trying to find el
Dixon to send me a copy of the grand jury
and paneling quest This is the same dream over and
over and over again. Bottom line, you learn your own
errors and you try to perfect them next time around.
(10:12):
That's what Hureman was doing.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I believe that, But I also believe there's an element
he could not get the level of twistedness that he wanted.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Is that a word?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
It is now? Now think about it, though, Nancy. Everything
he could find online would be made up. This was
real victims, real cases that he could read about and
fantasize about and then go try.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
I'm just wondering, you know. We know they went back
La law Enforce and went back into human's home in
the last days. What could they possibly have missed the
first time they practically tore the whole thing apart. I
just wonder what, of course we'll we'll find out when
this goes to trial. But that floppy discasically a handbook
(11:01):
of how to that he himself wrote, I cannot wait
to see what all what is in there? And I
would I would give you one hundred dollars Cheryl McCollum
if I could hand that over to the jury and
go through it page I'd love to blow up each
(11:22):
page and look at each word, even the word selection
of how he referred to the.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Victimy line, word for word, yep.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Word for a word, Cheryl oh h l N. Nobody's
leaving this courtroom through every page of that, every page.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Because again, that's what he wrote, that's what he was
concentrating on. That's what was important to him, this target.
Don't forget the body washed, don't forget rope, don't forget
to get.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Some can just go over it just that quickly. When
you say body wash, you may me think I'm in
some fancy hotel and they have those little containers of
quote body wash, a liquid soap. It sounds to me
like I'm squirting some sweet smelling, flowery, pinkish colored jel
or maybe green like peppermine. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
No, he was.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Cleaning out every havity, every body, havity, everything under the fingernails,
chopping the hands off so there would be absolutely no
phrase hadas left behind. And you call it a body wash.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I believe that's what he called it. That's why I
said it that way in his manifesto. So he's reminding
himself to do these things, to go get these you know,
the cat litter and everything.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I believe I would call this a manifesto. I would
call this a how to.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Well, they called it a blueprint, which.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I guess, yes, yes, really light, which goes back to
his architectural roots.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Mm hmmm. This show does just like I think the
way he put the victims out, I think a lot
of those things. He could not stop being who he
was at his core.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Let's talk about that again. I love the way you
described that, the way he laid out the victims.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
They're all lined up just on this shore edge and
it if you think about it, it looks like a city.
Those are his buildings, those are his masterpieces. To me,
that's what it looks like. The way there's space. You've
got some you know, gathered close here. You've got one
off kind of to the side, and it goes straight
down is parallel right with the road.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Just wondering how his wife and children are responding to this,
because I know she's doing a reality show and making
a lot of money off of it too, And I
guess there'll be a memoir I Married a serial Killer,
My life with the Long Island serial Killer. But of
course that's I got to come out to lifeter the trial,
(13:57):
and she's going to have to have a lot of
joll house business that she can talk about. And then
I guess some TV stud network will pick it up
and make it a mini series. That's what's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, you're talking about three hundred and fifty electronic devices.
You're talking about different computers where he's put literally the
playbook of how he does it. You're talking about putting
up tarts. Now that's great, but you and I both
know cleaning a crime, saying, is nearly impossible. I don't
(14:31):
care what you put down. I don't care how well
you think you've got everything covered with tarts and everything else.
One splatter, one hair, one fingernail. It's hard for me
to believe there wasn't evidence all over that house. And
I want to ask you something. Why do you think
they took paint chips from the outside of that house
(14:54):
and wenda did.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
The paint Did they find something? Wow, examination under a microscope,
maybe a mass spictometer that could match up to the
paint hips. There had to be here's.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
What's fascinating to me. On the outside of the house.
So that means she was either trying to crawl out
a window. I mean, how does a paint chip get
on you from the outside of a house.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Well, it could have been something as simple as a struggle,
because remember I believe I recall a witness stating they
saw a woman naked running for the house. They saw
it was one of the victims or running from the house.
I believe it's a taxi cab driver. Somebody in the
(15:42):
camp saw a woman running out of the house. I
can't remember if she was clothed or unclothed, And I'm wondering,
was there some sort of altercation where the woman the
victim was pushed up against the house. Maybe she had
a cut or an a brage into her elbow or
the back of her arm, or the back of her
(16:03):
head where she was pushed up against the house. All
these years later, they get one tiny particle of a
chemical of paint and you.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Can see the difference in paint in layer. We did
it all the time with car accidents, no question. I
just didn't know if it was, like you're saying, through
a struggle or through an escape attempt.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But same thing where the part of the body comes
in contact with it, and it would have to be
forceful for that to stay, to adhere to the skin
and be able to be discovered this many years later.
And you know, that's really amazing, Cheryl, that all these
(16:49):
years later, these women's bodies will be States Witness Number one.
What their bodies will reveal or is it clues because
they got to give it to Huerman. He got rid
of a lot of evidence. Then he would leave a
(17:10):
glaring clues like the avalanche, you know, the truck sitting
part out in front of his house.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
One question we had early on was where they killed,
and I mean really early on in the truck in
the woods on the side of the road, like where
were they killed? Well, now we know with the surgical
blankets that are leak proof by the way, that even
in transport they were bleeding. And for some of these
(17:42):
women that he strangled and all that we know now
some were stabbed with straight edge weaponry. So you've got
this picture that has been painted now that absolutely he
used the home, no doubt about it. He took great time.
He took more time than maybe we even originally thought.
I thought sometimes maybe it was overnight, but now I
(18:05):
believe absolutely it was days.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Oh. I think these women were tortured for days on end.
And I think that every time his wife went out
of town he would get a new victim.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I do too, But I also think there was maybe
one or two that he just couldn't wait for her
to leave. And he was a real quick like hit
it and quit it kind of thing. He didn't have
time to do a three day deal. But I don't
think he only killed when they were out of town.
I don't think he's got that kind of self control.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I don't know. I don't know how he could. Well, yeah,
you're right, you're right, because they were not all dismembered,
it could be a very quick process. He wouldn't have
to wait every time. Yeah, you're right, And.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
That's what I was saying. Like Bundy, he dismembered some,
but he didn't dismember all of them. Some he just
bludgeons real quick with the logs. Some he strangled with
their own pantyhose. I think he is such a sexual
pervert that he was trying all kinds of stuff different times,
and he didn't always have the opportunity to have the
house to himself. And I think he made amends.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
You know what, little mon fact Bundy would actually post
mortem bathe the victims, put on their put on makeup,
apply makeup to them, and redo their hair. Oh. I
don't know how you and I can even function in society, Cheryl,
when we have to analyze this all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Here's how we do it. We ain't gonna end on
something negative. I want to do a real quick crime
con roundup, and I got to talk about you. I've
told you this story before, but.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
You do know I'm going about, let's say, seventy nine
miles an hour on the interstate, trying to get home
to the children right now, and here I am talking
about Ted Bludee having sex with a dead body and
end applying makeup to it. Dear lord, I got to
get this out of my head before I get home.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Well, I'm gonna do it right now. So you know,
me and Walt early on we were we didn't have cable.
You know, I did not realize how famous you got
so quick because we didn't have cable. Well, let me
tell you something, sister, kay. When I get into that
room and I saw your buddy John and he's like, yeah,
she's right in there, and I said, well, I hadn't
(20:16):
even seen her all weekend. I got to go, you know, Hugger,
real quick, y'all. I walked in a room, Nellie.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
When there was a te TV camera going up until
then you right by me in the hallway.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
That's right. I didn't know who she was. Seriously, that
place was as big as an airplane hanger, and people
were wrapped around it, and then out the door, down
the hall, and y'all here was the funniest thing ever.
I was kind of blown away because I'm like, look
at all these people that just want to say hey
to her, just want to meet her, just you know, deservedly.
(20:51):
So but I'm just saying, there was thousands of people.
So I walk up and I'm kind of standing to
the side because Nancy. One thing that blows my mind
about you is you speak to every single person. You
don't rush them, you don't get in a hurry, and
you are not a flight attendant. You know, a flight
attendant's thank you for flying, good ny, goodbye, thank you
for flying, good.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Night, goodbye.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
You don't do that. You say something unique to every person,
which is mind boggling. But then you catch my eye
and you say, hey, come here, let's do a quick video.
And what do you say, shut up, David so here.
So we had we had I don't know, two thousand
(21:33):
people crack up with us at the same time. But
I just appreciated watching you. You're so gracious and you're
so kind.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I appreciate that. But it's not me. It is not me.
You know why people are in a line. People are
in a line because somewhere along the way, I was
lucky enough, blessed enough to get to tell a story.
And whatever story that was, it touched them like it
touches me and you. Every single time it touched them,
(22:03):
that touched their lives and maybe it changed something about
their life. Because I'm gonna tell you, you know, the
first thing I'm gonna do when I get home tonight,
I'm gonna find Lucy. I'm gonna find John David. I'm
gonna force them into a group PUG which they hate.
I'm gonna hold one. It's very awkward for them, not
(22:24):
for me. I'm gonna hold on like there is no tomorrow.
And every case I cover makes me appreciate my time
with them, and my time was shut up David even.
And what I'm saying is it's not It really is
not me at some moment, some story, some case, some
crime victim, some moment when we've actually found a child
(22:48):
we're looking for, or we've had a happy resolution for
once or twice. And that's that's why people wait. That's
what they want justice. They want the right thing to happen.
They want that child to found, they want that ahold
to go to jail the rest of his life, and
I've just been lucky enough to get to tell those stories.
(23:08):
That's what it is right there.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Well, I love that you said it that way, but
you know, there's a lot of hard work and that luck,
and there's a lot of long nights and a lot
of tears and blood and sweat. So I just appreciate you.
And I tell people all the time that being in
this job, I know for a fact, has made me
a better parent, has made me a better wife. I
don't take anything for granted, and that includes your friendship.
(23:33):
So I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Cheerl Are we ever ever gonna sit down and have
a cup of coffee? I guess not. Why do I
even keep saying that that's never gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Stop offering coffee and I might show up.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
You know I'm a teacher. You know that I'm sorry.
I guess I got slip a little bit of something
into your decaf, and don't think of getting falterers. You
know what I've been doing. Hopefully he's not paying any attention.
He's got his earpiece in his ear for years and
years and years. David thinks he's getting Folgers instant. No way.
I go to Dollar Tree, I get like ten and
(24:11):
I keep putting it into the Folgress could take her everyone.
This coffee is so good, I'm like, it ain't just
the best ever.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
That man can't get a birthday gift. He can't get
a decent he can't get a decent cup of coffee.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
He doesn't know any better. He's over there just listening
to some book on tape, not paying one bit of
attention to what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I'm so happy.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
So yes, you can come over and have some Dollar
Tree gets some coffee with me.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yep, we're gonna do it next week and then we'll
talk about it.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Okay, we'll talk about it.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Bye, love you, honey. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is
the Crime Round Up with Zones Heaven
Speaker 2 (25:00):
No
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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