August 2, 2024 • 24 mins
Nancy and Sheryl open today’s CRU by discussing the recent developments in the Delphi murder case involving Richard Allen. They dive into Allen's numerous confessions, the peculiar defense strategies involving Odinists, and the evidence used in court.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:10) Today’s CRU topic is the latest on The Delphi Murders
- (1:15) Richard Allen's confessions
- (4:00) Defense strategy - odinists theory
- (11:00) Analysis of Richard Allen’s behavior in court
- (14:00) Monon high bridge
- (18:30) Reasons Richard Allen cannot claim mental illness
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the crime Roundup. I'm Cheryl McCollum and I'm
joined by the one and only Nancy Grace. Y'all. Today
we are talking Delphi, and y'all remember February fourteenth, twenty seventeen,
Abigail Williams and Liberty German were murdered at the high Bridge. Now,
(00:31):
I'm gonna let Nancy jump right on in here because
we had some stuff pop off in court yesterday that
absolutely needs our attention. Morning.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Nancy.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
You know what I must really either love you or
hate Richard Allen. I can't figure out.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Because I'm trying to go fishing.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
For Pete's sake.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I'm trying to take the twins fishing. We're down here
at Appalachric in our apple like COOLi is think oysters
and we are about to go out and hit the water.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
But I just have to talk to you, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
McCollum, about that poc Richard Allen.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Well, speaking of fishing, they got fish in a barrel
with this idiot. He has confessed, Nancy, we know now
sixty times.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
I can't wait to hear the confessional. I can't wait
to hear what he said.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
There was life on the phone.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Has anybody told you exactly what he said?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
No, but you remember when you and I first talked
about it, we said, if he has said anything that
has not been released to the public, that only the
killer would know that, that would be a money tree.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, probably something about the bullet. I guarantee you. Okay, Wait,
let's just start out the beginning about what's happening right now. Okay,
First of all, in my mind, Harel, as you know,
it's like explosions going off all the time. First of all,
what you just said when you said this goes all
the way back for all those years.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
What was it was a.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Twenty seventeen thing, Cheryl, it's twenty twenty four. This has
been dragging along for seven years. Those poor families, they
just must be losted. Oh, because I know after a
day in court, even but I would be dealing with
(02:34):
somebody else's murder. I would come home. Of course, the
hours were so long when you were on trial. But
I would come home and just fall over. Sometimes I
would fall Oh. I did this during Dancing with Stars.
David would say.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Hey, you've been gone all day long.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Let's go out and damn like sure and go Okay,
let me go through some whatever and have on.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
I want to depend on something nice, to go to
supper and come back.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
You can say, I'll be asleep on the bed in
my clothes, and she used I just would fall over.
Same thing after a trial, and just imagine what these
hellies have gone there for seven years. Okay, that's the first.
When you see twenty seventeen, it just hit me in
the face. Next thing, okay, alert, alert, prosecutors, drop your motion,
(03:24):
stop your motion to exclude the defense.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
They're a that.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Richard Allen didn't do it. The odists did. Please let
the defense argue said, this little community of three thousand people,
it's bigger than where I grew up, three thousand people
that somehow the Oldnists infiltrated and I had to find
out about the Oldness. I had to bring on an expert,
(03:51):
not once, not twice, but I think I brought them
the three times on the christ stories to help explain
what is an Oldnist? Oldness are people that were ship
the Norse gods? What yes, like the valkyrie, you know,
the women warrior that flies through the air and kill
the other imaginary warriors and thord. They somehow infiltrated this
(04:19):
little community and nobody knew about it, and then their
first official act was killing these two little girls. Okay,
you know what, I would just be mad if they
did not argue that now there is a more nefarious
slant to it, and they claim that the Oldists are
densely populated amongst white supremacists, so they're adding not only
(04:45):
oldists did it. As the defense, they're giving that a
heavy sprinkling white supremacy, which everybody hates. So I guess
they're sure going to tank the jury. Sure, please argue that.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
There was no way I was going to interrupt you,
because this is pure gold.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
So happy.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
The other thing that just kind of blows my mind
about this whole thing is, how do you, under a
gag order go ahead and get your way of thinking
out there? How do you go ahead and throw your
defense out there? This is how they're doing it. They
want to muck that water up so bad that they're
going to throw stuff out there that everybody goes, what
what is that? Even every expert that you saw on TV,
(05:29):
your show, everybody else's show, they had to go look
it up. Nobody's ever heard of this.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
I did not know what ad somewise. I'm embarrassed to say, Okay, wait,
because there was a defense I had never heard of.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I don't think i've.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Been this happy since I'm And you know who did
it too, He amazingly was went to the district attorney.
I worked with a prosecutor as my equal in the das. Obviously,
we tried a case together when I was knee when
I still had people trying the cases with me against
(06:01):
two killers. I still remember them right now. And the
victim was a little boy says about thirteen. His nickname
was Moonbeam, as I recall him, played in the band.
And these two thugs sitting Moonbeam coming around from school,
and they have high powered weapons. They look like machine guns,
and they were like spray painting black flight black, and
(06:25):
they at a distance like they were up in a
hunter's stand, shoot this little boy. And this is the
part that you know, I always have one fact that
kind of makes me sick to my stomach. The little
boy fell and he started crawling, calling out for his mother,
and then they kept shooting him. Okay, the defense between
(06:47):
two lawyers, they came up with a defense transferred intent.
Cheryl transferred in tent. I was so happy. What does
that mean? Oh, I didn't mean to shoot Eryl. I
meant to murder Max, her producer. So I just shot
into the studio.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
It doesn't matter. You still meant this.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
She is somebody, And I thought, well, wait a minute,
this is not a defense under the law. You can't
say I meant to murder that person, but I accidentally
murdered this person.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, it sounds like a confession.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I'll just tell you who it was. It was Paul Howard,
who later ran for DA and One. He's at office now.
I couldn't believe he was are you? But of course
I just from once kept my mouth shut and let
him argue it so I.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Could destroy it front of the jury.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
That's what I hope happens. So here, I need the
state to stop fighting about oldness and let them argue it.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I agree put it out there, because then they're going
to have to say why they came to that conclusion.
What is it about the crime scene? Let's talk about it.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
We were talking about this on Crime Stories yesterday. I
was very angry.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
You were not there doing my real job.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Oh that darn okay.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Put the food on the table.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
That thing. We were talking about, why what possible adults
could support a theory odinis odinists did it, and they
said because there were twigs in dirt in the girl's hair,
and some of the twigs made the girls look like
they had horns. Okay, first of all, that sounds so crazy,
(08:25):
but then think about it. I got I got thinking
about it last night. These little girls. Oh ugh, I
just had the mental picture. This happened to my little girl,
Lucy of Cheryl. You've got to see her. She's just amazing.
Everybody that sees our family pictures they say, oh, that
is so big, he's so tall, he's a giant, and
(08:47):
he is he's six. I think he's six six. Now
I've got to measure him overshadows Lucy as she is
beautiful and sweet and smart and just quiet. Oh, I
love her so much. When I think of them taking
the fact that the little girls Abby and Lemmy's hair
(09:09):
dirty and had twigs and leaves in it because they
were down on the ground dead, and then twisting that
into a defense, it just got me so upsets. Cheryl.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Here's the bottom line.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
You do know you say that like ten times?
Speaker 4 (09:30):
How many bottom lines?
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Her episode there's like fifty bottom line, the botom line. Oh,
she must be just rolling in money.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
There's so many money trees.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Okay, that reminds me of what time me and you
were talking and I'm like, well, half of it is this,
and half of it is that the other half of this,
and you lost your mind. I was on roll. You
were like your parent's way a lot of money at
that private school.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Man.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
They did, didn't they? But I was on a roll.
And here's the thing you want to argue, odinism. All
you're doing is somehow making the murder of two little
girls that much more twisted. You're not helping your client.
You're not. And people are going to be all wrapped
(10:22):
up in this. And here's the deal. Your boy has
confessed sixty times, Nancy, sixty everybody that walked past his
sale he said, hey, I did it. And the detective testified.
And you and I have been asking about this because
(10:42):
I've said from day one, if Richard Allen has said
anything that has not been made public, anything that only
the killer would know, that is absolutely a money tree.
And they testified yesterday that that is a fact.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Okay, wait a minute, can you just do you have
a picture of him because I've got my pad up.
Well I should be out fishing. I've got a picture
of Richard Allen up.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Just look at him.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Can you imagine him like you said, every time somebody
wants body?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, I did it, even the ward.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
But okay, I got in an argument yesterday. Can you
imagine that with a really good defense attorney. What's his name,
I'll think of it in a moment. They come and
they go, and we were talking about his statements, his confessions,
his alleged confessions to his wife over the prison phone,
(11:41):
and we started talking about confidentiality, husband wife privilege, you know,
like attorney client privilege, priests, parishioner of privilege. So many privileges,
and it's not the individual that claims the privilege. For instance,
that the wife gets up to testify. She may hate
his guts.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
By now, I.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Actually think she believe whis a rex Huer moon and
the wife is making all that money.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Offer what was it to that a peacock special she's doing.
I don't know, some.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Camera crew following her around. Anyway, she may hate his
guts and be happy to testify against him, which I doubt,
but she doesn't claim the husband wife privilege. He claims it,
she gets up on the stand and he goes, ugh,
object marital privilege. Okay, but that's what the attorney was arguing.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
Here is a caveat.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
There's an exception to that. For instance, if I'm talking
to my lawyer and I'm charged with a bank heist
and I'm saying, yeah, okay, this is how I did it,
and we got to cover this. We got to figure
out how to defend me. That conversation is protected. But
if I have it in the middle of Walmart, or
I have it at a cot fancy cocktail party and
people are standing around, I have waived my privilege to
(12:56):
secrecy him.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Here's the idea him.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
He was talking on the Jill find which has a
big sign over it that says these calls are recorded,
and because there were people milling around, I would argue
with the straight face that he waived his privilege.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
That makes perfect sense. Okay, let's get rid of the
wife and the Mama's five confessions. You still got what
fifty five left where he confessed to his suicide, companions,
his salemates, the warden, every guard that would listen to him.
I mean sixty confessions.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
I wondered what he was saying.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I wonder if he's trying to justify, like, oh, I
was what drunk, high, depressed, out of my mind, temporarily insane.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Mental illness doesn't account for him knowing facts that only
the killer would know.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Mental illness.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
In my rear end, he was working as a local
pharmacy tech and helping feel prescriptions and eyeing these girls
every time they came in, functioning perfectly, and that one
big char I think I'm going to give you credit.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I think it was you.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Okay, by the time I tell this a few more times,
it will have been me.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Wasn't it you that said? Look?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
There is the sketch over his head, right behind him
in the bar. He's sitting there all smiled, and right
over his head is the sketch of the purp and
is him. It looks just like him.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Straight up him. And remember he put himself at the bridge.
He told a law enforcement representative the day, Hey, I
was here at the same time the girls were here.
If y'all need me let me know.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Wait a minute, yerld wait finish. I thought I was
here watching fish again. My rear end, this if you
get up on the trestle bridge, which you have been there.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
You cannot see anything.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
In that muddy water, I was saying yesterday. It reminds
me of the Flint or the Each County where I
grew up. You couldn't see a thing my brother Okay,
listen to this. If my parents knew, they were out working,
so they had no idea what was happening. My brother
friends would throw firecrackers into the water to make the
snakes come up to the top so they can see
(15:06):
them before they jumped in. That's how muddy the water is.
So he claims, how tall is that trestle bridge?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Sixty feet?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Oh, it's high, yes, And when you're on top of it,
I mean it's it's dangerous. It's all I can tell you.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
So he is watching fish from atop the trestle bridge
and the muddy water sixty feet over the water, and
we have a video of him walking forward and he's
not looking at anything except those two girls.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Cheryl. We've got a martial art evidence.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
All of this free flows stream of consciousness is great,
but to go to trial, you have to marshal your evidence.
It's the only term I have for it. Put it
in categories instead of just yacking about. It has to
be you know, Cheryl, and you somehow got into many
(16:04):
many in my files. I would have to write out
all the questions for each witness in long hand, and
then besides the appropriate question put interstates exhibit one, whatever
it might be, the you know, the hair evidence, the
weapon of this, the whatever. Of course, you can never
(16:26):
follow those questions as they're written, because the witness will
go off in different directions and their answer, and you
look very flat footed if you don't go along with
the conversation. I love it when lawyers stem up in
court and they just read one question after the next,
no matter what the witness says. The witness says, okay,
yes I did it. I want to confessedly, go and
what time of the day was that that you appear? So,
(16:51):
I mean it has to be marshaled and organized, and
I bet that's what the state's doing right now. I
can't believe it has been twenty seventeen, Cheryl, seventeen.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
You know, you just reminded me of something where I
still crack up to this day.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Oh here see God's stealing my memories.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
We were in your office and you were putting stuff
together and I said, well, you gonna mark this state's exhibit. A.
You turned around in that chair.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I bet I said, A, there's gonna be more than
whatever how many or in the alphabet as.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Well, that's exactly what you said. You say, I only
go have twenty six. I know, I have never laughed
so hard. You were like, this is gonna be state's exhibit.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
What woy? I know in little world with copin, how
also bad are you?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Insane? Woman?
Speaker 3 (17:39):
You know, when I was getting ready for trial, everything
was like a knife and moment.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I couldn't eat, I couldn't think.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
But one thing I didn't manage to learn to do
is to sneak into the jury cafeteria in the new
part of the courthouse the quote annex because you could
get a huge, huge cupful of made vegetable soup for
ninety nine cents and I had nothing, zero, nothing, worked
two night jobs, understood, scraped together the car payment, and
(18:10):
I would actually scrounge around to get the you know
how you like look down and the cushions to find
money to find the ninety nine cents. I'm not kidding, Cheryl, Oh, honey,
I understand remember the first time I was ever held
in contempt.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
It was on a Wednesday, and I knew Miss Jackson
was making corn bread. I was fine with it.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Great, I'm hungry exactly, just getting in there before they
start serving lunch in the jail and all that, and
like ten thirty eight left to get in there and hurry.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
So, Cheryl, can we just say a few more things
about Richard Allen will get very serious for a moment.
Let's just go ahead and knock down his defenses. He
cannot claim mental illness because he was working perfectly fine
at his pharmacy tech job and going about his business.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
You see the picture of him at.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
The bar, laughing and drinking with the sketch right behind him.
The state can bring up all of his daily activities.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
He's probably deacon in the church.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
For Pete's sake.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
He's not going to be able to claim that his
best hope is to have, oh gosh, if he's got
that many statements, to have them suppressed. What about the
physical habitant, Cheryl, you talking about.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
The bullet, Yes, I'm talking about the bullet, Nancy. They've
got the bullet, and they've got now a box cutter.
So we all thought their throats were probably cut. That's
what I theorized from the very beginning. This absolutely seems
sexual to me. But keep in mind what his job was.
(19:40):
His job at CVS, he probably opened boxes every day,
so he was very proficient with a box cutter, I
would imagine. So again, I think that's going to be
a solid piece of evidence to tie back to him.
And if he mentioned that in one of these sixty
(20:01):
plus confessions, that again is something only the killer would know.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Not only that, I think there's going to be other
physical evidence that we don't know about yet, maybe fibers, hair,
DNA fingerprints, that kind of thing. Remember forensics expert.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
He's not going to be able to get past the bullet,
first of all, he's not going to be able to
get past the other evidence that they have that they
have not released yet. Also, he's talked about the motive.
He's given them, what his motive was.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
What could possibly be a motive? Okay, here's another thing.
Do you say he molested the girls?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I do too, So there's going to be DNA agreed.
I mean, we may not have sperm. He may be
just smart enough not to leave that behind. But if
he molested them, then there's I would guess there's going
to be some kind of touch DNA or some sort
of epithilial skin cells fiber off of his outfit, which
(20:57):
the idiot was still wearing. Remember, could you just explain
that refresh everyone's recollection regarding the outfit.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
He's got a hoodie owned under a blue jean jacket
and his hands are in his pockets. That was key
to me. He's got blue jean zone in work boots.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Everybody. Susan Hendrix is our friend, our longtime friend, all
the way back to our hl N days, and she
is no longer at HLN, but she joined us yesterday
and it's going to be hitting YouTube today around six pm.
And she said that Richard Allen would turn around. She Susan,
(21:43):
it's sitting with the family of the victims, you know,
the grandma's and my aunts and cousins, and turn around
and overtly stare at them, I mean glare blair at them.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Have you ever been on an elevator and somebody turns
out and looks you in the eye. It's very jarring
because it's not our social Nora, it's not our social
norm and I know you've heard animal trainers that say,
don't look an angry animal in the eyes because they
see it as a predatory or an aggressive act. Now
(22:20):
I don't I'm not a shrink, but I don't know
how to translate that. But I hope he does that
to the jury, just glaring at them. And then so
we talked about that for a few moments, and then
some genuine a hole goes online and fusses at us
for talking about that. Well, they're an idiot, because everything
you do in front of a jury or in a
(22:40):
courtroom matters. I don't care what it is.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Do you remember I would not paint.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
My nails the whole time, all the years I was
a daight Because I once saw public defender with these
long nails walking.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
In front of the jury, basically holding a document with
her fingernails. And I saw a lady you are, push
the other ladies you are and look at the nails,
and they were.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Like, uh huhuh. I'm like, okay, I'm never doing that.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
So if you would notice somebody's nails, for Pete's sake,
you don't think they would notice Richard Allen glaring at them.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
It also tells you. The defense attorney didn't tell him
to stop it and turn around. The bailiff didn't stand
between him and the victim. I mean, I know good
and well in your courtroom that would not have happened twice.
Oh no, no, But can you believe.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Richard Allen turning around staring at these little girl's families
like that, like they did something wrong?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
It tells you where he's at. I cannot wait until
they release what these confessions were. I want to hear
them so bad. Y'all have a good time on that boat,
have fun. I'm going to be posting pictures as soon
as somebody catches something.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
But it's got to be big, because John David does
not want a posting of a little bitty fish. His
little friend down the street actually competes in fishing competitions
and he's really good at it. Jack and John David
will absolutely not post a little fish. It's got to
be a whopper. And you do know we throw him
(24:14):
back in, So we have to take the picture really
quickly and throw it back in in a hurry. Oh
I hope Dave doesn't fall overboard and disappear. Oh okay,
I'll leave you with that thought all.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Right, honey, love you, bye, I love you.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is the Crime Roundup with
zones Have It
Welcome to the crime Roundup. I'm Cheryl McCollum and I'm
joined by the one and only Nancy Grace. Y'all. Today
we are talking Delphi, and y'all remember February fourteenth, twenty seventeen,
Abigail Williams and Liberty German were murdered at the high Bridge. Now,
(00:31):
I'm gonna let Nancy jump right on in here because
we had some stuff pop off in court yesterday that
absolutely needs our attention. Morning.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Nancy.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
You know what I must really either love you or
hate Richard Allen. I can't figure out.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Because I'm trying to go fishing.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
For Pete's sake.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I'm trying to take the twins fishing. We're down here
at Appalachric in our apple like COOLi is think oysters
and we are about to go out and hit the water.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
But I just have to talk to you, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
McCollum, about that poc Richard Allen.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Well, speaking of fishing, they got fish in a barrel
with this idiot. He has confessed, Nancy, we know now
sixty times.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
I can't wait to hear the confessional. I can't wait
to hear what he said.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
There was life on the phone.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Has anybody told you exactly what he said?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
No, but you remember when you and I first talked
about it, we said, if he has said anything that
has not been released to the public, that only the
killer would know that, that would be a money tree.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, probably something about the bullet. I guarantee you. Okay, Wait,
let's just start out the beginning about what's happening right now. Okay,
First of all, in my mind, Harel, as you know,
it's like explosions going off all the time. First of all,
what you just said when you said this goes all
the way back for all those years.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
What was it was a.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Twenty seventeen thing, Cheryl, it's twenty twenty four. This has
been dragging along for seven years. Those poor families, they
just must be losted. Oh, because I know after a
day in court, even but I would be dealing with
(02:34):
somebody else's murder. I would come home. Of course, the
hours were so long when you were on trial. But
I would come home and just fall over. Sometimes I
would fall Oh. I did this during Dancing with Stars.
David would say.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Hey, you've been gone all day long.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Let's go out and damn like sure and go Okay,
let me go through some whatever and have on.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
I want to depend on something nice, to go to
supper and come back.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
You can say, I'll be asleep on the bed in
my clothes, and she used I just would fall over.
Same thing after a trial, and just imagine what these
hellies have gone there for seven years. Okay, that's the first.
When you see twenty seventeen, it just hit me in
the face. Next thing, okay, alert, alert, prosecutors, drop your motion,
(03:24):
stop your motion to exclude the defense.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
They're a that.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Richard Allen didn't do it. The odists did. Please let
the defense argue said, this little community of three thousand people,
it's bigger than where I grew up, three thousand people
that somehow the Oldnists infiltrated and I had to find
out about the Oldness. I had to bring on an expert,
(03:51):
not once, not twice, but I think I brought them
the three times on the christ stories to help explain
what is an Oldnist? Oldness are people that were ship
the Norse gods? What yes, like the valkyrie, you know,
the women warrior that flies through the air and kill
the other imaginary warriors and thord. They somehow infiltrated this
(04:19):
little community and nobody knew about it, and then their
first official act was killing these two little girls. Okay,
you know what, I would just be mad if they
did not argue that now there is a more nefarious
slant to it, and they claim that the Oldists are
densely populated amongst white supremacists, so they're adding not only
(04:45):
oldists did it. As the defense, they're giving that a
heavy sprinkling white supremacy, which everybody hates. So I guess
they're sure going to tank the jury. Sure, please argue that.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
There was no way I was going to interrupt you,
because this is pure gold.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
So happy.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
The other thing that just kind of blows my mind
about this whole thing is, how do you, under a
gag order go ahead and get your way of thinking
out there? How do you go ahead and throw your
defense out there? This is how they're doing it. They
want to muck that water up so bad that they're
going to throw stuff out there that everybody goes, what
what is that? Even every expert that you saw on TV,
(05:29):
your show, everybody else's show, they had to go look
it up. Nobody's ever heard of this.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
I did not know what ad somewise. I'm embarrassed to say, Okay, wait,
because there was a defense I had never heard of.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I don't think i've.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Been this happy since I'm And you know who did
it too, He amazingly was went to the district attorney.
I worked with a prosecutor as my equal in the das. Obviously,
we tried a case together when I was knee when
I still had people trying the cases with me against
(06:01):
two killers. I still remember them right now. And the
victim was a little boy says about thirteen. His nickname
was Moonbeam, as I recall him, played in the band.
And these two thugs sitting Moonbeam coming around from school,
and they have high powered weapons. They look like machine guns,
and they were like spray painting black flight black, and
(06:25):
they at a distance like they were up in a
hunter's stand, shoot this little boy. And this is the
part that you know, I always have one fact that
kind of makes me sick to my stomach. The little
boy fell and he started crawling, calling out for his mother,
and then they kept shooting him. Okay, the defense between
(06:47):
two lawyers, they came up with a defense transferred intent.
Cheryl transferred in tent. I was so happy. What does
that mean? Oh, I didn't mean to shoot Eryl. I
meant to murder Max, her producer. So I just shot
into the studio.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
It doesn't matter. You still meant this.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
She is somebody, And I thought, well, wait a minute,
this is not a defense under the law. You can't
say I meant to murder that person, but I accidentally
murdered this person.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, it sounds like a confession.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I'll just tell you who it was. It was Paul Howard,
who later ran for DA and One. He's at office now.
I couldn't believe he was are you? But of course
I just from once kept my mouth shut and let
him argue it so I.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Could destroy it front of the jury.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
That's what I hope happens. So here, I need the
state to stop fighting about oldness and let them argue it.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I agree put it out there, because then they're going
to have to say why they came to that conclusion.
What is it about the crime scene? Let's talk about it.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
We were talking about this on Crime Stories yesterday. I
was very angry.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
You were not there doing my real job.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Oh that darn okay.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Put the food on the table.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
That thing. We were talking about, why what possible adults
could support a theory odinis odinists did it, and they
said because there were twigs in dirt in the girl's hair,
and some of the twigs made the girls look like
they had horns. Okay, first of all, that sounds so crazy,
(08:25):
but then think about it. I got I got thinking
about it last night. These little girls. Oh ugh, I
just had the mental picture. This happened to my little girl,
Lucy of Cheryl. You've got to see her. She's just amazing.
Everybody that sees our family pictures they say, oh, that
is so big, he's so tall, he's a giant, and
(08:47):
he is he's six. I think he's six six. Now
I've got to measure him overshadows Lucy as she is
beautiful and sweet and smart and just quiet. Oh, I
love her so much. When I think of them taking
the fact that the little girls Abby and Lemmy's hair
(09:09):
dirty and had twigs and leaves in it because they
were down on the ground dead, and then twisting that
into a defense, it just got me so upsets. Cheryl.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Here's the bottom line.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
You do know you say that like ten times?
Speaker 4 (09:30):
How many bottom lines?
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Her episode there's like fifty bottom line, the botom line. Oh,
she must be just rolling in money.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
There's so many money trees.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Okay, that reminds me of what time me and you
were talking and I'm like, well, half of it is this,
and half of it is that the other half of this,
and you lost your mind. I was on roll. You
were like your parent's way a lot of money at
that private school.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Man.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
They did, didn't they? But I was on a roll.
And here's the thing you want to argue, odinism. All
you're doing is somehow making the murder of two little
girls that much more twisted. You're not helping your client.
You're not. And people are going to be all wrapped
(10:22):
up in this. And here's the deal. Your boy has
confessed sixty times, Nancy, sixty everybody that walked past his
sale he said, hey, I did it. And the detective testified.
And you and I have been asking about this because
(10:42):
I've said from day one, if Richard Allen has said
anything that has not been made public, anything that only
the killer would know, that is absolutely a money tree.
And they testified yesterday that that is a fact.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Okay, wait a minute, can you just do you have
a picture of him because I've got my pad up.
Well I should be out fishing. I've got a picture
of Richard Allen up.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Just look at him.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Can you imagine him like you said, every time somebody
wants body?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, I did it, even the ward.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
But okay, I got in an argument yesterday. Can you
imagine that with a really good defense attorney. What's his name,
I'll think of it in a moment. They come and
they go, and we were talking about his statements, his confessions,
his alleged confessions to his wife over the prison phone,
(11:41):
and we started talking about confidentiality, husband wife privilege, you know,
like attorney client privilege, priests, parishioner of privilege. So many privileges,
and it's not the individual that claims the privilege. For instance,
that the wife gets up to testify. She may hate
his guts.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
By now, I.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Actually think she believe whis a rex Huer moon and
the wife is making all that money.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Offer what was it to that a peacock special she's doing.
I don't know, some.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Camera crew following her around. Anyway, she may hate his
guts and be happy to testify against him, which I doubt,
but she doesn't claim the husband wife privilege. He claims it,
she gets up on the stand and he goes, ugh,
object marital privilege. Okay, but that's what the attorney was arguing.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
Here is a caveat.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
There's an exception to that. For instance, if I'm talking
to my lawyer and I'm charged with a bank heist
and I'm saying, yeah, okay, this is how I did it,
and we got to cover this. We got to figure
out how to defend me. That conversation is protected. But
if I have it in the middle of Walmart, or
I have it at a cot fancy cocktail party and
people are standing around, I have waived my privilege to
(12:56):
secrecy him.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Here's the idea him.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
He was talking on the Jill find which has a
big sign over it that says these calls are recorded,
and because there were people milling around, I would argue
with the straight face that he waived his privilege.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
That makes perfect sense. Okay, let's get rid of the
wife and the Mama's five confessions. You still got what
fifty five left where he confessed to his suicide, companions,
his salemates, the warden, every guard that would listen to him.
I mean sixty confessions.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
I wondered what he was saying.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I wonder if he's trying to justify, like, oh, I
was what drunk, high, depressed, out of my mind, temporarily insane.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Mental illness doesn't account for him knowing facts that only
the killer would know.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Mental illness.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
In my rear end, he was working as a local
pharmacy tech and helping feel prescriptions and eyeing these girls
every time they came in, functioning perfectly, and that one
big char I think I'm going to give you credit.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I think it was you.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Okay, by the time I tell this a few more times,
it will have been me.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Wasn't it you that said? Look?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
There is the sketch over his head, right behind him
in the bar. He's sitting there all smiled, and right
over his head is the sketch of the purp and
is him. It looks just like him.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Straight up him. And remember he put himself at the bridge.
He told a law enforcement representative the day, Hey, I
was here at the same time the girls were here.
If y'all need me let me know.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Wait a minute, yerld wait finish. I thought I was
here watching fish again. My rear end, this if you
get up on the trestle bridge, which you have been there.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
You cannot see anything.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
In that muddy water, I was saying yesterday. It reminds
me of the Flint or the Each County where I
grew up. You couldn't see a thing my brother Okay,
listen to this. If my parents knew, they were out working,
so they had no idea what was happening. My brother
friends would throw firecrackers into the water to make the
snakes come up to the top so they can see
(15:06):
them before they jumped in. That's how muddy the water is.
So he claims, how tall is that trestle bridge?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Sixty feet?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Oh, it's high, yes, And when you're on top of it,
I mean it's it's dangerous. It's all I can tell you.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
So he is watching fish from atop the trestle bridge
and the muddy water sixty feet over the water, and
we have a video of him walking forward and he's
not looking at anything except those two girls.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Cheryl. We've got a martial art evidence.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
All of this free flows stream of consciousness is great,
but to go to trial, you have to marshal your evidence.
It's the only term I have for it. Put it
in categories instead of just yacking about. It has to
be you know, Cheryl, and you somehow got into many
(16:04):
many in my files. I would have to write out
all the questions for each witness in long hand, and
then besides the appropriate question put interstates exhibit one, whatever
it might be, the you know, the hair evidence, the
weapon of this, the whatever. Of course, you can never
(16:26):
follow those questions as they're written, because the witness will
go off in different directions and their answer, and you
look very flat footed if you don't go along with
the conversation. I love it when lawyers stem up in
court and they just read one question after the next,
no matter what the witness says. The witness says, okay,
yes I did it. I want to confessedly, go and
what time of the day was that that you appear? So,
(16:51):
I mean it has to be marshaled and organized, and
I bet that's what the state's doing right now. I
can't believe it has been twenty seventeen, Cheryl, seventeen.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
You know, you just reminded me of something where I
still crack up to this day.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Oh here see God's stealing my memories.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
We were in your office and you were putting stuff
together and I said, well, you gonna mark this state's exhibit. A.
You turned around in that chair.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I bet I said, A, there's gonna be more than
whatever how many or in the alphabet as.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Well, that's exactly what you said. You say, I only
go have twenty six. I know, I have never laughed
so hard. You were like, this is gonna be state's exhibit.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
What woy? I know in little world with copin, how
also bad are you?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Insane? Woman?
Speaker 3 (17:39):
You know, when I was getting ready for trial, everything
was like a knife and moment.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I couldn't eat, I couldn't think.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
But one thing I didn't manage to learn to do
is to sneak into the jury cafeteria in the new
part of the courthouse the quote annex because you could
get a huge, huge cupful of made vegetable soup for
ninety nine cents and I had nothing, zero, nothing, worked
two night jobs, understood, scraped together the car payment, and
(18:10):
I would actually scrounge around to get the you know
how you like look down and the cushions to find
money to find the ninety nine cents. I'm not kidding, Cheryl, Oh, honey,
I understand remember the first time I was ever held
in contempt.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
It was on a Wednesday, and I knew Miss Jackson
was making corn bread. I was fine with it.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Great, I'm hungry exactly, just getting in there before they
start serving lunch in the jail and all that, and
like ten thirty eight left to get in there and hurry.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
So, Cheryl, can we just say a few more things
about Richard Allen will get very serious for a moment.
Let's just go ahead and knock down his defenses. He
cannot claim mental illness because he was working perfectly fine
at his pharmacy tech job and going about his business.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
You see the picture of him at.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
The bar, laughing and drinking with the sketch right behind him.
The state can bring up all of his daily activities.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
He's probably deacon in the church.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
For Pete's sake.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
He's not going to be able to claim that his
best hope is to have, oh gosh, if he's got
that many statements, to have them suppressed. What about the
physical habitant, Cheryl, you talking about.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
The bullet, Yes, I'm talking about the bullet, Nancy. They've
got the bullet, and they've got now a box cutter.
So we all thought their throats were probably cut. That's
what I theorized from the very beginning. This absolutely seems
sexual to me. But keep in mind what his job was.
(19:40):
His job at CVS, he probably opened boxes every day,
so he was very proficient with a box cutter, I
would imagine. So again, I think that's going to be
a solid piece of evidence to tie back to him.
And if he mentioned that in one of these sixty
(20:01):
plus confessions, that again is something only the killer would know.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Not only that, I think there's going to be other
physical evidence that we don't know about yet, maybe fibers, hair,
DNA fingerprints, that kind of thing. Remember forensics expert.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
He's not going to be able to get past the bullet,
first of all, he's not going to be able to
get past the other evidence that they have that they
have not released yet. Also, he's talked about the motive.
He's given them, what his motive was.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
What could possibly be a motive? Okay, here's another thing.
Do you say he molested the girls?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I do too, So there's going to be DNA agreed.
I mean, we may not have sperm. He may be
just smart enough not to leave that behind. But if
he molested them, then there's I would guess there's going
to be some kind of touch DNA or some sort
of epithilial skin cells fiber off of his outfit, which
(20:57):
the idiot was still wearing. Remember, could you just explain
that refresh everyone's recollection regarding the outfit.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
He's got a hoodie owned under a blue jean jacket
and his hands are in his pockets. That was key
to me. He's got blue jean zone in work boots.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Everybody. Susan Hendrix is our friend, our longtime friend, all
the way back to our hl N days, and she
is no longer at HLN, but she joined us yesterday
and it's going to be hitting YouTube today around six pm.
And she said that Richard Allen would turn around. She Susan,
(21:43):
it's sitting with the family of the victims, you know,
the grandma's and my aunts and cousins, and turn around
and overtly stare at them, I mean glare blair at them.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Have you ever been on an elevator and somebody turns
out and looks you in the eye. It's very jarring
because it's not our social Nora, it's not our social
norm and I know you've heard animal trainers that say,
don't look an angry animal in the eyes because they
see it as a predatory or an aggressive act. Now
(22:20):
I don't I'm not a shrink, but I don't know
how to translate that. But I hope he does that
to the jury, just glaring at them. And then so
we talked about that for a few moments, and then
some genuine a hole goes online and fusses at us
for talking about that. Well, they're an idiot, because everything
you do in front of a jury or in a
(22:40):
courtroom matters. I don't care what it is.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Do you remember I would not paint.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
My nails the whole time, all the years I was
a daight Because I once saw public defender with these
long nails walking.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
In front of the jury, basically holding a document with
her fingernails. And I saw a lady you are, push
the other ladies you are and look at the nails,
and they were.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Like, uh huhuh. I'm like, okay, I'm never doing that.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
So if you would notice somebody's nails, for Pete's sake,
you don't think they would notice Richard Allen glaring at them.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
It also tells you. The defense attorney didn't tell him
to stop it and turn around. The bailiff didn't stand
between him and the victim. I mean, I know good
and well in your courtroom that would not have happened twice.
Oh no, no, But can you believe.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Richard Allen turning around staring at these little girl's families
like that, like they did something wrong?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
It tells you where he's at. I cannot wait until
they release what these confessions were. I want to hear
them so bad. Y'all have a good time on that boat,
have fun. I'm going to be posting pictures as soon
as somebody catches something.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
But it's got to be big, because John David does
not want a posting of a little bitty fish. His
little friend down the street actually competes in fishing competitions
and he's really good at it. Jack and John David
will absolutely not post a little fish. It's got to
be a whopper. And you do know we throw him
(24:14):
back in, So we have to take the picture really
quickly and throw it back in in a hurry. Oh
I hope Dave doesn't fall overboard and disappear. Oh okay,
I'll leave you with that thought all.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Right, honey, love you, bye, I love you.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is the Crime Roundup with
zones Have It
Host
Sheryl McCollum
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.