October 30, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, is joined by Josephine Wentzel, mother of Krystal Mitchell, a young woman tragically murdered in 2016. Josephine shares her heart-wrenching journey to bring Krystal’s killer, Raymond McLeod, to justice. Despite systemic hurdles and relentless heartache, Josephine refused to let Crystal’s case go cold, leading a six-year search across borders. McLeod was captured in the Central American country after the U.S. Marshals Service received a tip that he was teaching English at school in the city of Sonsonate, El Salvador.
Josephine Wentzel is a former law enforcement officer. She became an advocate for justice following the murder of her daughter, Krystal Mitchell. Through years of relentless pursuit and public advocacy, she brought global awareness to Crystal's case, refusing to let her daughter’s killer, Raymond Mcleod, escape justice.
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, you are not alone, and help is available. Please reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) or visit thehotline.org for resources, support, and guidance. Trained advocates are available 24/7 to provide confidential help. Don’t hesitate to reach out—support is just a call away.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
- (0:10) Sheryl gives a background of today’s episode dedicated to DV awareness month
- (1:20) Sheryl introduces guest, Josephine, Krystal's mother to Zone 7
- (1:30) Background of Krystal Mitchell
- (7:45) Meeting McLeod - the deceptive charm
- (11:30) Josephine shares her premonitions and concerns about Krystal’s safety
- (14:00) The devastating confirmation of Krystal’s death
- (17:45) Taking proactive measures in the search
- (22:00) “When you minimize a Google map, the whole time I pictured that, that whole entire map on my hand, and I said, it's as big as my hand, and I can find every part.”
- (28:40) Jack Donovan… the name Raymond McLeod went by
- (37:30) Upcoming trial and hopes for justice
- (38:30) “I've said it before and I'll say it again. He messed with the wrong mama.” -S.S
- Thanks for listening to another episode! If you’re loving the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to Itunes and leave a rating and review!
---
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a collaboration between universities and colleges that brings researchers, practitioners, students and the criminal justice community together to advance techniques in solving cold cases and assist families and law enforcement with solvability factors for unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnapping cases.
Social Links:
- Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
- Twitter: @ColdCaseTips
- Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Crystal Mitchell, a thirty year old mother of two, was
dating a thirty seven year old former marine bodybuilder and dad,
Raymond MacLeod. On June fifteenth, Lay sixteenth, they're visiting friends
in San Diego on Mission Gorge.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
They decide to go out for some drinks at a
local bar.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
While at the bar, Crystal and Raymond get into some
type of argument. Raymond slaps her. Another man at the
bar tries to intervene, and the two men get into
a fight. The couple left the bar and returned to
the apartment where they were staying at the seventy six
hundred block of Mission Gorge.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
There is video from the.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Elevator where Raymond put his hand around Crystal's throat and
moves her toward the apartment. The next day, Crystal was
found inside the apartment's guest room dead. She had been
strangled and beaten, and there was a trail of blood
(01:15):
from the apartment to the elevated door. Raymond was nowhere
to be found. Please welcome a very special guest to
Zone seven, Josephine Wincel, Crystal's mama. Listen, y'all, y'all heard
those stories about Mama's lifting cars off children, rushing into fires,
(01:42):
jumping between.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
A child and a bear. Well, let me tell you
about Josephat when Crystal's case went.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Cold and nobody was looking for her, her mama looked
for her without fear.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Here's the deal, Josephine.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
You know how how I feel about you and how
I admire you, and just there's not enough accolades I
could say about how you are one of the most
incredible people I've ever met. But why don't we start
and you just tell us about Crystal.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, Crystal was thirty. She had just turned thirty on
May twenty first. She was killed in June tenth. She
was a beautiful woman inside out. As much as she
was on the outside, she wasn't the inside. She was
very trusting, she was caring, She loved God, you know,
(02:37):
she prayed. And she was married to the children's father
who was injured in Moar. He was riding in a
vehicle that ran over an ied and therefore, you know
he experienced severe PTSD and some other issues. And this
is why I'm raising the children. But Crystal was a
(03:00):
funny gown. She was a go getter. I mean, she
purchased her own home with her own money at twenty
one years old. She was determined to make it for
her children. She had dreams and visions and ideas, and
you know, because she was a single mom, she was
also looking for a partner. She was looking for someone
(03:22):
that can love her and love her children equally. And
I used to tell her stuff like, you know, be
careful of looking for someone. You know, you've got to
make sure this person loves children and they're safe to
be around, that sort of thing. You know, We've had
those conversations, and she was a great joy in my life.
I mean, she wasn't, you know, as normal child any
(03:45):
She was normal like you and I. You know, she
has her highs and her lows, and she has her
fun times and her downtimes. You know, she struggled as
a single mom, but she did it herself. She was
so determined to do it without my help that she
was away from Washington. Well she hated the rain anyway,
but she lived from Washington and she lived to Arizona
(04:07):
because she wanted the sun. And I was, you know,
kind of unsure, like you know, you're a single mom
moving away from your support. But I was proud of her.
I was proud of her because she wanted to prove
that she can do it. And she did, and she
worked hard, and she found babysitters. You know, Cheryl, she
(04:28):
never asked me for help. She never asked me for
financial help or anything like that. The only help would
be that, you know, I would go out there once
in a while every few months and be with the
kids if she wanted to do something. But she was,
you know, the life of the party, the light in
the dark, funny, she's caring, you know she I remember
(04:54):
her as a small child. She loved animals, loved love animals,
but a small child. She went through her picky bank
and collected her money and told me that she knew
I was helping a homeless family off the streets, and
she took her money and said here, you know, here's
my contribution help them. And there was a time in
(05:17):
school when there was a classmate she saw a girl
that couldn't participate in pe because she didn't have shoes.
She only had flip flops. And my daughter found out
what size she wore and came home, told me about
it and gathered what money she had, and I helped her.
She went and got shoes and put it in her locker.
You know, she's the type of girl. She's at the
store and she seen a handicap or senior citizen coming
(05:40):
to the door, she'd run and open it for her
for them. That's the kind of girl she was. She
always thought ahead. She was always planning my birthday gifts,
my Mother's Day gifts. She was always doing something special.
And she called me every day, every single day, at
least two times a day, once on the way to work,
(06:01):
and was of the way, how when she's going to work,
I'll hear her at the store looking for her sushi.
She loves sushi, and I'd hear her heels clacking and
she's walking around and missed out. And then at the
end of the day she called me and you know,
she's picked up the kids and everything and tell me
how our day went. So we were really connected this way,
(06:24):
you know, just to you painting that picture of her
heels clacking, I don't know that that got me a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Josephine. And you know she was beautiful, there's no doubt
about that. And the way you're describing how she just
loved wide open and led with her heart.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Let's tell everybody.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Now, you have a background of law enforcement, and I
think that's relevant right now because you've had some training
and some experience. So when you meet the first husband,
when you meet you know, this man, people think, oh man,
(07:09):
you must see red flags quicker than other people. But
I want to be real clear, because this is October
and it's domestic violence. But and I want to remind
people the devil will not come at you like the devil.
And there are people that are experts at hiding who
(07:31):
they are. So when you meet somebody who's thirty seven
and a former marine and has had a family and
is a dote and father himself and your daughter is happy,
they're most likely is not going to be in your
red flags. So tell us what it was like when
you first met MacLeod.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
You know, I had never met him in person. She's
told me about him, you know, she at first she
was like, you know, there was this guy that was
coming around and kept staring at her, and you know,
I didn't take anything of it. And I mean he
was stalking her because she was so beautiful and he
was attracted to this beautiful girl. And and then the
(08:16):
next thing, you know, you know, I mean before that,
and you talked about domestic could be violence, you know,
month and domestic abuse. Before that. She had an ex boyfriend.
She had broken up already about six months, and she
was looking for her and he kept trying to get
(08:36):
back with her, and she was, you know, he was
stalking her. He was going to her gated community and
coming going in there and climbing in the back patio
and banging on her door and looking in her window
and her bedroom windows. I mean, he was stalking her.
Along comes the snake and I'm sure she's opened up
(08:59):
like wha, you know, you're big bodyguard looking and he
came at her as a doting dad. Oh yeah. He
loved his son and pretended he was a Christian. You know,
I always said, you know, as don't date people that
didn't believe in God, you know, pretending he was. And
later on I discovered a tattoo on him in Arabic
(09:19):
that says there is no God, and everything about his
life he lied. And he gave her a gun to
protect herself from him. And I remember that night when
she had called me and she said, Mom, he's out there,
but I have a gun. And you know the kids,
remember you know that when mommy took the trash out,
(09:41):
she had a gun, and so he gained her confidence
that way. I wish she had her gun that night.
I really wish she did. Tell us. How did you
find out? Well, usually when she's gone, especially you know,
I had her children with me. It was summertime, and
I told instead of you know, she's in Phoenix, Simon, Washington,
(10:03):
and instead of the kids being in sitters and me
flying out there, just send the kids here for a
couple of months and we'll take care of them during
the summer. And so they came to stay with us,
and you know, they were just barely five and six,
and you know, next thing, you know, she was going.
(10:24):
And I tried calling her that Thursday. She was going
traveling to San Diego from Phoenix on Thursday, and she
didn't respond. She texted me and said, hey, you know,
I can't talk. I'll talk to you later. And then
I text her something back about you know, you're going there.
I don't even know what this guy looks like, you know,
(10:45):
And then she texted me a couple of pictures, which
was all part of God's plan somehow, because those were
the pictures that were you know that I was able
to put out wanted posters about was him those pictures
and anyway, so I shouldn't respond. That Friday, I woke
(11:05):
up and it was the strangest feeling. It was just
it was just I felt like my universe was turned
upside down, like my body was off kilter, my spirit
was halfway in and half way out. It was the
most bizarre feeling I'd ever experienced, right, and I didn't
know what was going on. I just, you know, thought
(11:28):
maybe I was coming down with something. I wasn't sure.
It was just a weird feeling. So I had called
some friends and asked them to pray for me. I said,
pray for me. I don't know what's going on. I
just feel weird. I feel like like my universe was shaken,
and I have no clue why. Well, later on that day,
you know, I had text hey, how are you doing?
(11:49):
And no response, and I just went about my day.
And then I got concerned, you know, and I thought, well,
she had to respond, and this is not normal with her.
So I tried again, you know, texting, hey, you know,
what's going on? How you doing? How you get it
back with you know, no response and so I started
feeling like, well, this is unusual, this is not like her,
(12:12):
you know, unless she lost her phone or something. But
she'll respond right away, and she would be calling me anyway,
because I have her children, and she'd be checking in
I'm And I called her friend Diana, and I said, Diana,
have you heard from her, you know, from Crystal. She
said no, but I'm sure she's okay. She probably just
left her phone in the hotel. And you know, Diana
(12:35):
knows that, you know, you know, mom's a little kind
of always checking on her daughter and checking who she date.
So they thought I was a little bit Yeah, maybe
over projective, if you will. Yep, they always think that.
So she's like, oh, you know, she's fine, she's fine,
don't worry about it. Don't have to worry about it.
(12:55):
But I knew she was there. There was something telling
me something that was wrong. It was later that evening
when I got really really sick to my stomach and
I just wanted to throw up, and I was getting
really sick, and it just so happened my oldest sister
had just arrived here from Texas. Thank god, she was there,
(13:15):
and so I was telling her, you know, I don't
know why. I feel sick. My gosh, I feel like
something is wrong, something is wrong. And I started to
almost cry, you know, I said, no, I know something
is wrong in here. I know something's wrong. She was like, oh,
just calm down. You know how kids get. So around
that time, my husband texts her fall to saying, please
call your mom. She's having a meltdown here. And it
(13:40):
was about that time that the detective on the other
side I didn't know. He kept getting text messages, the
phone keeping buzzing, which was I was trying to get
over her. And finally he said, you know, whoever's trying
to get old of her is desperate, and he took
a break and went it, picked up her phone, and
then he called. He called my husband. Michael was my
(14:03):
husband's text message, and he saw that, so he called
and asked him who he was. And when I saw
that six p one nine call come in, I knew,
I knew. I just I just grabbed my ear and
I just especially when I saw his face and I
saw him say I'm her dad, and then I saw
(14:25):
his face drop and I saw him go pale. I knew.
I just grabbed my ears and I don't know why,
but I just covered my ears and I just started screaming.
I just started screaming, and you know, I remember just
dropping to the floor and just pounding on the floor saying,
you know, this can be I mean, God would never
(14:47):
do this to me. Never. Why would God do this
to me? Never? I was leading prayer and worship that morning.
Why would he do this to me? No way, you know.
And I kept saying to my husband, I know this
a mistake. Let's go, Let's go to San Diego. And
I tried to leave ows and they were restraining me,
and it was just a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible night.
(15:10):
And I, you know, even forgot the kids were upstairs,
and my sisters all came and they started taking the
kids out, and kids wanted to know what's wrong with Nana,
why she's screaming, and nobody would tell them and just
took them away. And and then the next day I
had to tell the kids, and it was the hardest
(15:30):
thing in the world to do. And you know, especially
when my grandson followed me around saying, you know, how
does she die? And I said, well, her heart stopped,
and he asked, well, was anybody there with her, And
I lied and I said down. The doctor was there.
(15:55):
I didn't know what to say. I didn't and so
when he asked me later, he said, so with my
heart just going to stop and die like that, you know,
That's when I thought, Oh my gosh, I mean, just
stop already. You know. I was just a wreck, you know,
and and you know, throughout it all I had to
you know, teach them about you know, tell them that
(16:17):
Mom's in heaven and you know she's been she's okay,
and she's in a great place and one day we're
all going to be together, you and to see her again.
And you know, but in the meantime, I mean, you know,
I was like literally just like I'm speaking with you
right now, and inside my soul was screaming, just screaming hysterically.
(16:41):
And on the outside I had to be calm to
them and my kids who were droping and everybody was
falling apart, and I had to be strong and try
to be calm, and inside I was just a wreck,
and I was just it was just some somebody was
screaming inside of me, just screaming the whole time. And
that happen, but for months. When did you know he
(17:02):
went on the run. Well, they told me that they
were looking for him, and then, you know, I was
staying in touch with San Diego Peti and I think
it was like the next day and he said, hey,
we found the car and they had found out that
he fled into Mexico. And then it was they were like,
well we're working when the asas there. The crazy thing
(17:24):
was and I know that the detective felt really bad
about it, really really bad. I heard he was really devastated.
But we were at the viewing, my daughter's viewing at
the funeral hall, and I get a phone call from
the detective and he says, we got him. I said,
you got him. They were like, we got him. And
(17:46):
I was like, they got him, they got him, and
everybody you know, I mean, I mean, it wasn't much
of a victory, right you're standing in front of your
daughter's coffin, but it were like, yeah, they got him,
a big deal, right. Well then on I got a
phone call, a frantic call, singing sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
it wasn't him, Oh my god. And then he disappeared
(18:09):
and they didn't engage the marshals until almost five months later,
and that's after I made a scene, rode to the
White House, involved my congresswoman, and just started making phone
calls left and right. I even't tried to get the
Pentagon involved. Well, I mean, it is their man. They
(18:31):
trained him out of kill, they trained in WAA. You
would think they get evolved, but no. Anyway, So then
you know when I realized that five months about five
months after, you know, every day I'm calling calling in
the meantime, I'm in deep grief and planning funerals and
dealing with all that schoolkids. You know. That's when I
(18:55):
was talking to the bounty hunter or the other Bell
bondsmen and said to well, you know they're not looking
for him, right And I said, yeah they are. They
said they have you know, Lucili Brown, and they're looking
for him. He says, you really believe that? Do you
really believe that they have people actually looking for him there?
And I said that's what they said. He knows, No,
(19:16):
that doesn't happen that way. There's nobody looking for him
out there. I'm like, what you know? So I remember
calling the investigators and stuff and asked them, what are
you guys doing? Are you doing anything. Well, with notified
the embassy. We've notified our people, you know, but are
you putting flyers out there? Are you advertising? Are you
(19:39):
looking for him? Are you doing anything like that? And
and that's when I decided to take the bull by
the horn. And Okay, now you are going to get
away with nobody's going to get away with murdering my child.
He is not going to get away, amen.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, taking the bull while the horns, to me is
under selling what you did, y'all. When I tell you this,
mama went to work.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
And this is why y'all are just gonna lover her.
If you already don't know the story, here you go.
So you made a statement to me once where you
said mag I was pounding the pavement virtually. Well, I
started trying to figure out how to navigate through the system,
through the computer system, minding you know, I'm in my sixties.
(20:31):
Here we started forgetting out to turn off the computer. Oh,
it's got to be clubbed. No, But you know, it
was like I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
And speaking about law enforcement, okay, mind dude, that was
way back in nineteen seventy seven when I graduated from
the Gap Police Academy, and I'm you know, I was
work patrol for five years and then I did a
detective for about three years after. But you know, back
then on Guam, the we didn't have computers or anything,
(21:01):
so I had to learn everything new. So I paid
a couple thousand dollars and I went to one of
these open source training for that was put on for
private investigators, for law enforcement and even the general public,
and the marshals actually sent people there. I met officers
and all the private investigators. So my intent wasn't just
(21:24):
going there to learn, but my intent was to make connections,
and that I did. I make connections all over the world,
you know, people that were trying to help, from Africa,
from England, you know. And I had a whole bunch
of people trying their hand at it and nothing. And finally,
I you know, I prayed, I cried, and really it
(21:46):
was God meeting me. That's bottom line. It was God
meeting me. And you know, people thought, okay, central America,
come on, Josephine, you can't search for somebody in Central America.
But you know what my faith was the whole time. Okay,
when you minimize a Google map the whole time. I
pictured that whole entire map on my hand, and I said,
(22:11):
it's as big as my hand, and I can find
every part. I'm going to touch every part of it.
And that was my faith, and I kept it small
in the problem of my hands, and I knew that
I had him in the pole of my hands. I
just need to locate where he's at. But he's in
the problem my hands. And I kept that vision for
six years and two months. But you know what, it worked.
(22:36):
Somebody notified you about a sitan, Yes, and so what
I did? I mean, come on, here's the thing you see, Like,
you know, I have a friend in California who's the
governor chose her case to give her fifty thousand dollars reward,
and her son's been dead for fourteen years and there's
(22:58):
no suspect anything. Okay, But here's the problem with that case.
It can't be solved because they messed up with the
evidence and they lost custody of the evidence, so the
evidence was contaminated on that case to begin with. Then
they put a fifty thousand dollar reward for that case,
(23:20):
but nobody knows there's a fifty thousand dollars reward because
they don't go on advertise as a fifty thousand dollars reward.
So even though it looks great when they say, oh,
well we're giving you this and this, and it's great
on paper, but who's looking for the person? Nobody? Well,
you know, I just honestly, I assumed that this guy
(23:42):
took my daughter's life and fled the country. Surely, surely,
as American citizens this, they're going to go look for
him and bring him back to justice. That's what I assume.
I was wrong.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
You know what, though, when you're talking about mexicom Ala,
belize like all over South America the way you described
the palm of your hand, and you can touch every
part of it.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Here's what I love.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Nancy Grays decided she's going to do a special. She's
going to bring you in. She brought me in. I'm
sitting right next to you, and you said something. You said,
you know what, I don't have to play by the rules.
I'm not law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I knew then she's gonna get him. I was like, go, Mama,
if you want me to write a shotgun, please call me.
Let's load up the truck. I went to the Embassy
myself say did you know that this? What are you doing?
(24:49):
You know? And so when I wrote the White House,
by the way, I knew how to write letters to
get attention. I learned it. I learned it years ago.
But when I wrote the White House, I was surprised
they put a case number on it. The minute they
put a case number on my letter, I knew I
had gold in my hand. I knew that everybody's going
(25:12):
to have to jump when I bring back case number
and say, look, the White House has its attention on
this cake. But you know, they basically handed me over
to the State Department saying help this lady. Well, the
State Department kind of gave me to say. The deputy
director called me up and he was like, well, you know,
we're going to do our pass. It's really not in
(25:34):
our department. We're just you know, the State Department handled
the Embassy and stuff. It's really the marshals. I'll pass
the inf wan kind of thing. I'm like, wait a minute, Well,
if the White House didn't want you to do anything,
then why did they refer to you? Why did you
write me a letter? You know? So it went on
like that for a while. He's like, okay, well, you know,
(25:56):
I'll notify some other people, let them know. Okay. So
after a few months of going back and forth and
engaging other people, I remember calling him back, and when
I called him, I fell apart on that phone. I
just started sobbing and I was just crying my eyeballs out, saying,
you have no idea, you have no clue because you
(26:18):
didn't know as a child, and the poor guy, okay, okay, okay,
well let me see what I can do. Let me
see what I could do. Okay. And I think he
ignited a fire in Washington, d C. That's what he did.
So all of a sudden, they're paying attention to me. Now.
Then here comes a letter of inquiry for my congresswoman
(26:40):
and they're like, okay, okay, okay, you know this is
what we're doing. I'm down. It's Josephine. So then after COVID,
I thought, oh, oh, surely my case spirits. So I
asked my congresswoman again, can you put another letter of
inquiry in and find out what's going on? It was like,
please stop talking to your tiris wasn't pay just enough.
(27:04):
We're doing something, I promise We're doing something. But you
know what, I'm really grateful for the marshals I had
the task Force, especially San Diego. They've been so supportive,
they've been so kind, they've been so accommodating, and every
time we had they've responded to several tips out there.
One one incident they went to he was spotted in Roton, Honduras,
(27:29):
and there was a guy look identical to him and
they were They had the military surround the island and
they were going house to house and I knew it
was happening because somebody whose house was locked on contact
could be a messenger saying, hey, they just came by
my house. The military's around at Roton. And they've responded
(27:50):
to several things.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
You know, I even had a retired a retired marshall
who had contacted me and said, hey, you know Josephine
and I'm in Central America.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
If you want me to check out anything, let me know.
Love it, love it. But you know, you had Lenny
to Paulson with us.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Lenny's one of the best to ever do it, and
you know, all he could do was talk about what
you had done. And I thought that was remarkable to
give you that nod to say, look, we're sitting here today.
The Marshall Service is looking for him today because of
what Josephine has done.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I just could not see this man getting away with murder,
and I knew he was be interest and the more
reports I got that he was hurting women, the more
aggressive I became. Tell us about Jack Donovan. Jack Donovan
was the name that Raymond MacLeod was using. So he's
living in another country under an assumed name. Yes, and working. Oh,
(28:52):
this is where everybody's gonna love. Tell him where he
was working. He was at a school. He was working
as an English teacher for adults in El Salvador. So
still vulnerable women, yes, vulnerable women and young men. Yes. Okay.
So he was captured and now the trial is coming up.
(29:15):
I mean this is the tenth attempt at a preliminary.
So this guy, okay, So picture, My daughter's been gone
for over eight years. It's for six years and two months.
I have been looking for the murderer now for two
years and a couple of months. He's been sitting in
(29:36):
jail waiting for a preliminary. We're finally going tomorrow. I'm
flying out to San Diego. And we're finally going to
have the preliminary hearing, which I was told was going
to be hard because the defense wants to tear down
(30:00):
the victim.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Basically, Oh, let me guess it was rough sex that
got out of hand.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
M hm. Yes, that's what he wants to say. Of course,
of course all evidence shows that he was you know,
he did it, So he's not going to deny killing her. Yeah,
because there's a video. Nobody else goes in and out
of that apartment. Nobody else fled, nobody else went to
another country under assumed name. Nobody else had their hands
(30:26):
around her throat that very night, nobody else slapped her
physically in public, in front of God and country. So
my question is with the rough sex, was he having
sex with the man at the bar too, because he
fought him and it was rough, Well, was he having
sex with the woman? He is a strange white. He
tried to murder and that's why he was out in
bond out of Riverside, California.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Okay, And how about the fact that you know Crystal's
voice box was fractured in three places.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Well, he's he's been abusive all throughout women. I mean,
I had both calls of women contacting me. As a
matter of fact, I had a call recently from a
gal that knew, you know, Crystal very very well. She
k looked out in Phoenix and she was telling me.
She says, you know, I met this gal and when
(31:20):
she saw that, you know, I had Crystal's picture, she goes,
wait a minute, wasn't that Why do you have her picture?
And she said, oh, that's my friend. And she had
told her, Oh my gosh, you know I dated that monster.
We were dating and he would have rep sex and stuff,
but he was abusive all the time. You know, she
(31:41):
fled from him because he was just throwing her around
all the time and beating up on her. And I
think there's a name for men like that. I think
it was Chris or somebody had told me that there
was a name for men like that too. They use
rep sex as an excuse that it's called a pos.
(32:02):
I got another word too. But this could go on
for a while, right, And here's the thing, you know,
it's he's so sick that he's he's even trying to
make it very difficult for my family. He wants to
be nasty, he wants to use the money that his
father left behind and trusts to hire all these attorneys
(32:26):
and try to, you know, make it really rough for
the family. He's guilty, why don't he just plead guilty
and spare us the details. You know, that's the hardest
thing for families is that they have to sit through
court and listen to these novels. I don't know how
I'm an affair to tear the truth. Well, I'll tell
you one thing.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
I feel for her children because every single thing that
they're going to allege, which is not true, She's had
other men in her background that was not a part
of her life at all.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
But they're gonna read about it.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
It's going to be out there for God and country
to see. And that to me is a part of
this whole thing that is just disgusting.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It is, and it's a reason why a lot of
women won't come forward. I mean, we're talking about dB month.
That's the reason a lot of women won't come forward
and tell the truth. They're a shame and they don't
have the money to fight back, and they know that
they'll have to go to court and be drugged through mud,
you know. I mean, we see it all the time.
(33:32):
And you know in this case, I mean, you know,
this guy he comes for money. His parents were from Scottsdale, Arizona,
and they were delight insurance and stuff. And you know
he's left a chunk of money for Junior to try
and get exonerated. Raymond MacLeod was counting on a lot
(33:52):
of things, Josephine. He was counting on Mexico and Guatemala
and Belize hiding him. He was counting on that the
marshals were never going to show up. The Bell's bondman
was going to write it off. But he wasn't counting
on you. You are the X factor here. Your determination, You're
(34:13):
just flat out bravery and determination to do for your child.
I mean, I know you were forward detective. I know
you had some skill. None of that to me came
into play here.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
You utilize technology that you weren't that familiar with, that
you never used in your job. You were fearless in
who you contacted and who you asked for help. And
I'll tell it to me when you take you and
that tipster because of you, and then law enforcement because
of the tipster, That's how you get at this capture.
(34:52):
There's no other way to look at it. There's not
this is you. So when you say I don't know
how long affair I do I do, You're going to
walk in that place like the ball you are.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
You're gonna look right at him. You're going to testify,
and he's going to stay in jail for the rest
of his natural life. That is what I'm hoping to do.
I'm you know, I just you know, for me, I've
always avoided learning all the details. I mean, just the
stuff you describe right now, with things that I recently
learned off because everybody else knew about it, I didn't.
(35:28):
I just chose not to, and I wanted to add
as you know, and this is where my peace comes in. Okay.
You know, when when I first got worded that she
was killed, and during the time that I was grieving
and everything else, and the only you know, everybody's boys
just kind of faded in the background, I heard a voice,
very loud and clear that said, Josephine, your daughter's spirit
(35:55):
was taken by an angel before Satan had his way
with her body. And this is the only thing that
keeps me going is what I've heard from God and
his guidance. And that's what you know keeps me going.
So when I say I don't know how I'm gonna fare,
you know I've been fighting. The biggest struggle for me
(36:17):
is my spirit and my flesh. My flesh ones were
in band. I've had a plot and plan this whole
time I was looking for him. I had to repent
over and over and over for my thoughts. Then the
spirit that says, you know, let God handle it. That's
been my struggle back and forth. That's why I say
(36:38):
I'm not I mean, I just want to go there
and just jump it and slap the hand out of them.
I know that's not going to happen. And I know
if I even attempted anything like that, they throw me
out of court right banned me from the trial. So
you know, it's it's a struggle, it really is. I
mean it's a struggle of you know, letting it go,
letting God or you know, take it into your hands.
(37:01):
And I say, it's easier when you let God handle it,
because then you don't have to carry the burden no
matter what happened. And that's my struggle. I'm not trying
to turn this into a religious show or anything like that.
You know, there are some people that don't believe. Some
people struggle whatever. It's not about religion at all. It's
about how I'm making it and how I did it.
You know, the people say you're so strong, No, I'm weak.
(37:23):
Remember I told you about that person inside of me
screaming and crying. That's me. That's who I am. The
outside is what you see God owing in the app
and making me somebody different, and he's my strength. You know,
I'm hoping that McLeod is not released back into society.
(37:44):
I really believe, with all my heart's soul in mind
that this was not his first murder and this will
not be his last, and he needs to be contained
in that cell. He really does. And I hope to
God that he gets convicted of first degree murder and
that he serves the rest of his life in prison. Josephine,
(38:07):
thank you so much for sharing this with us. Thank
you for being my friend, Thank you for being a
part of my Zone.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Seven, and I want you to know we are all
standing with you next week.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Thank you. I really appreciate it, and take care, y'all.
Want to get an end Zone seven the way that
I always do.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
With a quote, I've said it before, and I'll say
it again.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
He messed with the wrong Mama.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
San Diego District Attorney Somers dat. I'm Cheryl McCollum and
this is Zone seven.
Crystal Mitchell, a thirty year old mother of two, was
dating a thirty seven year old former marine bodybuilder and dad,
Raymond MacLeod. On June fifteenth, Lay sixteenth, they're visiting friends
in San Diego on Mission Gorge.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
They decide to go out for some drinks at a
local bar.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
While at the bar, Crystal and Raymond get into some
type of argument. Raymond slaps her. Another man at the
bar tries to intervene, and the two men get into
a fight. The couple left the bar and returned to
the apartment where they were staying at the seventy six
hundred block of Mission Gorge.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
There is video from the.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Elevator where Raymond put his hand around Crystal's throat and
moves her toward the apartment. The next day, Crystal was
found inside the apartment's guest room dead. She had been
strangled and beaten, and there was a trail of blood
(01:15):
from the apartment to the elevated door. Raymond was nowhere
to be found. Please welcome a very special guest to
Zone seven, Josephine Wincel, Crystal's mama. Listen, y'all, y'all heard
those stories about Mama's lifting cars off children, rushing into fires,
(01:42):
jumping between.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
A child and a bear. Well, let me tell you
about Josephat when Crystal's case went.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Cold and nobody was looking for her, her mama looked
for her without fear.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Here's the deal, Josephine.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
You know how how I feel about you and how
I admire you, and just there's not enough accolades I
could say about how you are one of the most
incredible people I've ever met. But why don't we start
and you just tell us about Crystal.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, Crystal was thirty. She had just turned thirty on
May twenty first. She was killed in June tenth. She
was a beautiful woman inside out. As much as she
was on the outside, she wasn't the inside. She was
very trusting, she was caring, She loved God, you know,
(02:37):
she prayed. And she was married to the children's father
who was injured in Moar. He was riding in a
vehicle that ran over an ied and therefore, you know
he experienced severe PTSD and some other issues. And this
is why I'm raising the children. But Crystal was a
(03:00):
funny gown. She was a go getter. I mean, she
purchased her own home with her own money at twenty
one years old. She was determined to make it for
her children. She had dreams and visions and ideas, and
you know, because she was a single mom, she was
also looking for a partner. She was looking for someone
(03:22):
that can love her and love her children equally. And
I used to tell her stuff like, you know, be
careful of looking for someone. You know, you've got to
make sure this person loves children and they're safe to
be around, that sort of thing. You know, We've had
those conversations, and she was a great joy in my life.
I mean, she wasn't, you know, as normal child any
(03:45):
She was normal like you and I. You know, she
has her highs and her lows, and she has her
fun times and her downtimes. You know, she struggled as
a single mom, but she did it herself. She was
so determined to do it without my help that she
was away from Washington. Well she hated the rain anyway,
but she lived from Washington and she lived to Arizona
(04:07):
because she wanted the sun. And I was, you know,
kind of unsure, like you know, you're a single mom
moving away from your support. But I was proud of her.
I was proud of her because she wanted to prove
that she can do it. And she did, and she
worked hard, and she found babysitters. You know, Cheryl, she
(04:28):
never asked me for help. She never asked me for
financial help or anything like that. The only help would
be that, you know, I would go out there once
in a while every few months and be with the
kids if she wanted to do something. But she was,
you know, the life of the party, the light in
the dark, funny, she's caring, you know she I remember
(04:54):
her as a small child. She loved animals, loved love animals,
but a small child. She went through her picky bank
and collected her money and told me that she knew
I was helping a homeless family off the streets, and
she took her money and said here, you know, here's
my contribution help them. And there was a time in
(05:17):
school when there was a classmate she saw a girl
that couldn't participate in pe because she didn't have shoes.
She only had flip flops. And my daughter found out
what size she wore and came home, told me about
it and gathered what money she had, and I helped her.
She went and got shoes and put it in her locker.
You know, she's the type of girl. She's at the
store and she seen a handicap or senior citizen coming
(05:40):
to the door, she'd run and open it for her
for them. That's the kind of girl she was. She
always thought ahead. She was always planning my birthday gifts,
my Mother's Day gifts. She was always doing something special.
And she called me every day, every single day, at
least two times a day, once on the way to work,
(06:01):
and was of the way, how when she's going to work,
I'll hear her at the store looking for her sushi.
She loves sushi, and I'd hear her heels clacking and
she's walking around and missed out. And then at the
end of the day she called me and you know,
she's picked up the kids and everything and tell me
how our day went. So we were really connected this way,
(06:24):
you know, just to you painting that picture of her
heels clacking, I don't know that that got me a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Josephine. And you know she was beautiful, there's no doubt
about that. And the way you're describing how she just
loved wide open and led with her heart.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Let's tell everybody.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Now, you have a background of law enforcement, and I
think that's relevant right now because you've had some training
and some experience. So when you meet the first husband,
when you meet you know, this man, people think, oh man,
(07:09):
you must see red flags quicker than other people. But
I want to be real clear, because this is October
and it's domestic violence. But and I want to remind
people the devil will not come at you like the devil.
And there are people that are experts at hiding who
(07:31):
they are. So when you meet somebody who's thirty seven
and a former marine and has had a family and
is a dote and father himself and your daughter is happy,
they're most likely is not going to be in your
red flags. So tell us what it was like when
you first met MacLeod.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
You know, I had never met him in person. She's
told me about him, you know, she at first she
was like, you know, there was this guy that was
coming around and kept staring at her, and you know,
I didn't take anything of it. And I mean he
was stalking her because she was so beautiful and he
was attracted to this beautiful girl. And and then the
(08:16):
next thing, you know, you know, I mean before that,
and you talked about domestic could be violence, you know,
month and domestic abuse. Before that. She had an ex boyfriend.
She had broken up already about six months, and she
was looking for her and he kept trying to get
(08:36):
back with her, and she was, you know, he was
stalking her. He was going to her gated community and
coming going in there and climbing in the back patio
and banging on her door and looking in her window
and her bedroom windows. I mean, he was stalking her.
Along comes the snake and I'm sure she's opened up
(08:59):
like wha, you know, you're big bodyguard looking and he
came at her as a doting dad. Oh yeah. He
loved his son and pretended he was a Christian. You know,
I always said, you know, as don't date people that
didn't believe in God, you know, pretending he was. And
later on I discovered a tattoo on him in Arabic
(09:19):
that says there is no God, and everything about his
life he lied. And he gave her a gun to
protect herself from him. And I remember that night when
she had called me and she said, Mom, he's out there,
but I have a gun. And you know the kids,
remember you know that when mommy took the trash out,
(09:41):
she had a gun, and so he gained her confidence
that way. I wish she had her gun that night.
I really wish she did. Tell us. How did you
find out? Well, usually when she's gone, especially you know,
I had her children with me. It was summertime, and
I told instead of you know, she's in Phoenix, Simon, Washington,
(10:03):
and instead of the kids being in sitters and me
flying out there, just send the kids here for a
couple of months and we'll take care of them during
the summer. And so they came to stay with us,
and you know, they were just barely five and six,
and you know, next thing, you know, she was going.
(10:24):
And I tried calling her that Thursday. She was going
traveling to San Diego from Phoenix on Thursday, and she
didn't respond. She texted me and said, hey, you know,
I can't talk. I'll talk to you later. And then
I text her something back about you know, you're going there.
I don't even know what this guy looks like, you know,
(10:45):
And then she texted me a couple of pictures, which
was all part of God's plan somehow, because those were
the pictures that were you know that I was able
to put out wanted posters about was him those pictures
and anyway, so I shouldn't respond. That Friday, I woke
(11:05):
up and it was the strangest feeling. It was just
it was just I felt like my universe was turned
upside down, like my body was off kilter, my spirit
was halfway in and half way out. It was the
most bizarre feeling I'd ever experienced, right, and I didn't
know what was going on. I just, you know, thought
(11:28):
maybe I was coming down with something. I wasn't sure.
It was just a weird feeling. So I had called
some friends and asked them to pray for me. I said,
pray for me. I don't know what's going on. I
just feel weird. I feel like like my universe was shaken,
and I have no clue why. Well, later on that day,
you know, I had text hey, how are you doing?
(11:49):
And no response, and I just went about my day.
And then I got concerned, you know, and I thought, well,
she had to respond, and this is not normal with her.
So I tried again, you know, texting, hey, you know,
what's going on? How you doing? How you get it
back with you know, no response and so I started
feeling like, well, this is unusual, this is not like her,
(12:12):
you know, unless she lost her phone or something. But
she'll respond right away, and she would be calling me anyway,
because I have her children, and she'd be checking in
I'm And I called her friend Diana, and I said, Diana,
have you heard from her, you know, from Crystal. She
said no, but I'm sure she's okay. She probably just
left her phone in the hotel. And you know, Diana
(12:35):
knows that, you know, you know, mom's a little kind
of always checking on her daughter and checking who she date.
So they thought I was a little bit Yeah, maybe
over projective, if you will. Yep, they always think that.
So she's like, oh, you know, she's fine, she's fine,
don't worry about it. Don't have to worry about it.
(12:55):
But I knew she was there. There was something telling
me something that was wrong. It was later that evening
when I got really really sick to my stomach and
I just wanted to throw up, and I was getting
really sick, and it just so happened my oldest sister
had just arrived here from Texas. Thank god, she was there,
(13:15):
and so I was telling her, you know, I don't
know why. I feel sick. My gosh, I feel like
something is wrong, something is wrong. And I started to
almost cry, you know, I said, no, I know something
is wrong in here. I know something's wrong. She was like, oh,
just calm down. You know how kids get. So around
that time, my husband texts her fall to saying, please
call your mom. She's having a meltdown here. And it
(13:40):
was about that time that the detective on the other
side I didn't know. He kept getting text messages, the
phone keeping buzzing, which was I was trying to get
over her. And finally he said, you know, whoever's trying
to get old of her is desperate, and he took
a break and went it, picked up her phone, and
then he called. He called my husband. Michael was my
(14:03):
husband's text message, and he saw that, so he called
and asked him who he was. And when I saw
that six p one nine call come in, I knew,
I knew. I just I just grabbed my ear and
I just especially when I saw his face and I
saw him say I'm her dad, and then I saw
(14:25):
his face drop and I saw him go pale. I knew.
I just grabbed my ears and I don't know why,
but I just covered my ears and I just started screaming.
I just started screaming, and you know, I remember just
dropping to the floor and just pounding on the floor saying,
you know, this can be I mean, God would never
(14:47):
do this to me. Never. Why would God do this
to me? Never? I was leading prayer and worship that morning.
Why would he do this to me? No way, you know.
And I kept saying to my husband, I know this
a mistake. Let's go, Let's go to San Diego. And
I tried to leave ows and they were restraining me,
and it was just a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible night.
(15:10):
And I, you know, even forgot the kids were upstairs,
and my sisters all came and they started taking the
kids out, and kids wanted to know what's wrong with Nana,
why she's screaming, and nobody would tell them and just
took them away. And and then the next day I
had to tell the kids, and it was the hardest
(15:30):
thing in the world to do. And you know, especially
when my grandson followed me around saying, you know, how
does she die? And I said, well, her heart stopped,
and he asked, well, was anybody there with her, And
I lied and I said down. The doctor was there.
(15:55):
I didn't know what to say. I didn't and so
when he asked me later, he said, so with my
heart just going to stop and die like that, you know,
That's when I thought, Oh my gosh, I mean, just
stop already. You know. I was just a wreck, you know,
and and you know, throughout it all I had to
you know, teach them about you know, tell them that
(16:17):
Mom's in heaven and you know she's been she's okay,
and she's in a great place and one day we're
all going to be together, you and to see her again.
And you know, but in the meantime, I mean, you know,
I was like literally just like I'm speaking with you
right now, and inside my soul was screaming, just screaming hysterically.
(16:41):
And on the outside I had to be calm to
them and my kids who were droping and everybody was
falling apart, and I had to be strong and try
to be calm, and inside I was just a wreck,
and I was just it was just some somebody was
screaming inside of me, just screaming the whole time. And
that happen, but for months. When did you know he
(17:02):
went on the run. Well, they told me that they
were looking for him, and then, you know, I was
staying in touch with San Diego Peti and I think
it was like the next day and he said, hey,
we found the car and they had found out that
he fled into Mexico. And then it was they were like,
well we're working when the asas there. The crazy thing
(17:24):
was and I know that the detective felt really bad
about it, really really bad. I heard he was really devastated.
But we were at the viewing, my daughter's viewing at
the funeral hall, and I get a phone call from
the detective and he says, we got him. I said,
you got him. They were like, we got him. And
(17:46):
I was like, they got him, they got him, and
everybody you know, I mean, I mean, it wasn't much
of a victory, right you're standing in front of your
daughter's coffin, but it were like, yeah, they got him,
a big deal, right. Well then on I got a
phone call, a frantic call, singing sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
it wasn't him, Oh my god. And then he disappeared
(18:09):
and they didn't engage the marshals until almost five months later,
and that's after I made a scene, rode to the
White House, involved my congresswoman, and just started making phone
calls left and right. I even't tried to get the
Pentagon involved. Well, I mean, it is their man. They
(18:31):
trained him out of kill, they trained in WAA. You
would think they get evolved, but no. Anyway, So then
you know when I realized that five months about five
months after, you know, every day I'm calling calling in
the meantime, I'm in deep grief and planning funerals and
dealing with all that schoolkids. You know. That's when I
(18:55):
was talking to the bounty hunter or the other Bell
bondsmen and said to well, you know they're not looking
for him, right And I said, yeah they are. They
said they have you know, Lucili Brown, and they're looking
for him. He says, you really believe that? Do you
really believe that they have people actually looking for him there?
And I said that's what they said. He knows, No,
(19:16):
that doesn't happen that way. There's nobody looking for him
out there. I'm like, what you know? So I remember
calling the investigators and stuff and asked them, what are
you guys doing? Are you doing anything. Well, with notified
the embassy. We've notified our people, you know, but are
you putting flyers out there? Are you advertising? Are you
(19:39):
looking for him? Are you doing anything like that? And
and that's when I decided to take the bull by
the horn. And Okay, now you are going to get
away with nobody's going to get away with murdering my child.
He is not going to get away, amen.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, taking the bull while the horns, to me is
under selling what you did, y'all. When I tell you this,
mama went to work.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
And this is why y'all are just gonna lover her.
If you already don't know the story, here you go.
So you made a statement to me once where you
said mag I was pounding the pavement virtually. Well, I
started trying to figure out how to navigate through the system,
through the computer system, minding you know, I'm in my sixties.
(20:31):
Here we started forgetting out to turn off the computer. Oh,
it's got to be clubbed. No, But you know, it
was like I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
And speaking about law enforcement, okay, mind dude, that was
way back in nineteen seventy seven when I graduated from
the Gap Police Academy, and I'm you know, I was
work patrol for five years and then I did a
detective for about three years after. But you know, back
then on Guam, the we didn't have computers or anything,
(21:01):
so I had to learn everything new. So I paid
a couple thousand dollars and I went to one of
these open source training for that was put on for
private investigators, for law enforcement and even the general public,
and the marshals actually sent people there. I met officers
and all the private investigators. So my intent wasn't just
(21:24):
going there to learn, but my intent was to make connections,
and that I did. I make connections all over the world,
you know, people that were trying to help, from Africa,
from England, you know. And I had a whole bunch
of people trying their hand at it and nothing. And finally,
I you know, I prayed, I cried, and really it
(21:46):
was God meeting me. That's bottom line. It was God
meeting me. And you know, people thought, okay, central America,
come on, Josephine, you can't search for somebody in Central America.
But you know what my faith was the whole time. Okay,
when you minimize a Google map the whole time. I
pictured that whole entire map on my hand, and I said,
(22:11):
it's as big as my hand, and I can find
every part. I'm going to touch every part of it.
And that was my faith, and I kept it small
in the problem of my hands, and I knew that
I had him in the pole of my hands. I
just need to locate where he's at. But he's in
the problem my hands. And I kept that vision for
six years and two months. But you know what, it worked.
(22:36):
Somebody notified you about a sitan, Yes, and so what
I did? I mean, come on, here's the thing you see, Like,
you know, I have a friend in California who's the
governor chose her case to give her fifty thousand dollars reward,
and her son's been dead for fourteen years and there's
(22:58):
no suspect anything. Okay, But here's the problem with that case.
It can't be solved because they messed up with the
evidence and they lost custody of the evidence, so the
evidence was contaminated on that case to begin with. Then
they put a fifty thousand dollar reward for that case,
(23:20):
but nobody knows there's a fifty thousand dollars reward because
they don't go on advertise as a fifty thousand dollars reward.
So even though it looks great when they say, oh,
well we're giving you this and this, and it's great
on paper, but who's looking for the person? Nobody? Well,
you know, I just honestly, I assumed that this guy
(23:42):
took my daughter's life and fled the country. Surely, surely,
as American citizens this, they're going to go look for
him and bring him back to justice. That's what I assume.
I was wrong.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
You know what, though, when you're talking about mexicom Ala,
belize like all over South America the way you described
the palm of your hand, and you can touch every
part of it.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Here's what I love.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Nancy Grays decided she's going to do a special. She's
going to bring you in. She brought me in. I'm
sitting right next to you, and you said something. You said,
you know what, I don't have to play by the rules.
I'm not law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I knew then she's gonna get him. I was like, go, Mama,
if you want me to write a shotgun, please call me.
Let's load up the truck. I went to the Embassy
myself say did you know that this? What are you doing?
(24:49):
You know? And so when I wrote the White House,
by the way, I knew how to write letters to
get attention. I learned it. I learned it years ago.
But when I wrote the White House, I was surprised
they put a case number on it. The minute they
put a case number on my letter, I knew I
had gold in my hand. I knew that everybody's going
(25:12):
to have to jump when I bring back case number
and say, look, the White House has its attention on
this cake. But you know, they basically handed me over
to the State Department saying help this lady. Well, the
State Department kind of gave me to say. The deputy
director called me up and he was like, well, you know,
we're going to do our pass. It's really not in
(25:34):
our department. We're just you know, the State Department handled
the Embassy and stuff. It's really the marshals. I'll pass
the inf wan kind of thing. I'm like, wait a minute, Well,
if the White House didn't want you to do anything,
then why did they refer to you? Why did you
write me a letter? You know? So it went on
like that for a while. He's like, okay, well, you know,
(25:56):
I'll notify some other people, let them know. Okay. So
after a few months of going back and forth and
engaging other people, I remember calling him back, and when
I called him, I fell apart on that phone. I
just started sobbing and I was just crying my eyeballs out, saying,
you have no idea, you have no clue because you
(26:18):
didn't know as a child, and the poor guy, okay, okay, okay,
well let me see what I can do. Let me
see what I could do. Okay. And I think he
ignited a fire in Washington, d C. That's what he did.
So all of a sudden, they're paying attention to me. Now.
Then here comes a letter of inquiry for my congresswoman
(26:40):
and they're like, okay, okay, okay, you know this is
what we're doing. I'm down. It's Josephine. So then after COVID,
I thought, oh, oh, surely my case spirits. So I
asked my congresswoman again, can you put another letter of
inquiry in and find out what's going on? It was like,
please stop talking to your tiris wasn't pay just enough.
(27:04):
We're doing something, I promise We're doing something. But you
know what, I'm really grateful for the marshals I had
the task Force, especially San Diego. They've been so supportive,
they've been so kind, they've been so accommodating, and every
time we had they've responded to several tips out there.
One one incident they went to he was spotted in Roton, Honduras,
(27:29):
and there was a guy look identical to him and
they were They had the military surround the island and
they were going house to house and I knew it
was happening because somebody whose house was locked on contact
could be a messenger saying, hey, they just came by
my house. The military's around at Roton. And they've responded
(27:50):
to several things.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
You know, I even had a retired a retired marshall
who had contacted me and said, hey, you know Josephine
and I'm in Central America.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
If you want me to check out anything, let me know.
Love it, love it. But you know, you had Lenny
to Paulson with us.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Lenny's one of the best to ever do it, and
you know, all he could do was talk about what
you had done. And I thought that was remarkable to
give you that nod to say, look, we're sitting here today.
The Marshall Service is looking for him today because of
what Josephine has done.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I just could not see this man getting away with murder,
and I knew he was be interest and the more
reports I got that he was hurting women, the more
aggressive I became. Tell us about Jack Donovan. Jack Donovan
was the name that Raymond MacLeod was using. So he's
living in another country under an assumed name. Yes, and working. Oh,
(28:52):
this is where everybody's gonna love. Tell him where he
was working. He was at a school. He was working
as an English teacher for adults in El Salvador. So
still vulnerable women, yes, vulnerable women and young men. Yes. Okay.
So he was captured and now the trial is coming up.
(29:15):
I mean this is the tenth attempt at a preliminary.
So this guy, okay, So picture, My daughter's been gone
for over eight years. It's for six years and two months.
I have been looking for the murderer now for two
years and a couple of months. He's been sitting in
(29:36):
jail waiting for a preliminary. We're finally going tomorrow. I'm
flying out to San Diego. And we're finally going to
have the preliminary hearing, which I was told was going
to be hard because the defense wants to tear down
(30:00):
the victim.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Basically, Oh, let me guess it was rough sex that
got out of hand.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
M hm. Yes, that's what he wants to say. Of course,
of course all evidence shows that he was you know,
he did it, So he's not going to deny killing her. Yeah,
because there's a video. Nobody else goes in and out
of that apartment. Nobody else fled, nobody else went to
another country under assumed name. Nobody else had their hands
(30:26):
around her throat that very night, nobody else slapped her
physically in public, in front of God and country. So
my question is with the rough sex, was he having
sex with the man at the bar too, because he
fought him and it was rough, Well, was he having
sex with the woman? He is a strange white. He
tried to murder and that's why he was out in
bond out of Riverside, California.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Okay, And how about the fact that you know Crystal's
voice box was fractured in three places.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Well, he's he's been abusive all throughout women. I mean,
I had both calls of women contacting me. As a
matter of fact, I had a call recently from a
gal that knew, you know, Crystal very very well. She
k looked out in Phoenix and she was telling me.
She says, you know, I met this gal and when
(31:20):
she saw that, you know, I had Crystal's picture, she goes,
wait a minute, wasn't that Why do you have her picture?
And she said, oh, that's my friend. And she had
told her, Oh my gosh, you know I dated that monster.
We were dating and he would have rep sex and stuff,
but he was abusive all the time. You know, she
(31:41):
fled from him because he was just throwing her around
all the time and beating up on her. And I
think there's a name for men like that. I think
it was Chris or somebody had told me that there
was a name for men like that too. They use
rep sex as an excuse that it's called a pos.
(32:02):
I got another word too. But this could go on
for a while, right, And here's the thing, you know,
it's he's so sick that he's he's even trying to
make it very difficult for my family. He wants to
be nasty, he wants to use the money that his
father left behind and trusts to hire all these attorneys
(32:26):
and try to, you know, make it really rough for
the family. He's guilty, why don't he just plead guilty
and spare us the details. You know, that's the hardest
thing for families is that they have to sit through
court and listen to these novels. I don't know how
I'm an affair to tear the truth. Well, I'll tell
you one thing.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
I feel for her children because every single thing that
they're going to allege, which is not true, She's had
other men in her background that was not a part
of her life at all.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
But they're gonna read about it.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
It's going to be out there for God and country
to see. And that to me is a part of
this whole thing that is just disgusting.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It is, and it's a reason why a lot of
women won't come forward. I mean, we're talking about dB month.
That's the reason a lot of women won't come forward
and tell the truth. They're a shame and they don't
have the money to fight back, and they know that
they'll have to go to court and be drugged through mud,
you know. I mean, we see it all the time.
(33:32):
And you know in this case, I mean, you know,
this guy he comes for money. His parents were from Scottsdale, Arizona,
and they were delight insurance and stuff. And you know
he's left a chunk of money for Junior to try
and get exonerated. Raymond MacLeod was counting on a lot
(33:52):
of things, Josephine. He was counting on Mexico and Guatemala
and Belize hiding him. He was counting on that the
marshals were never going to show up. The Bell's bondman
was going to write it off. But he wasn't counting
on you. You are the X factor here. Your determination, You're
(34:13):
just flat out bravery and determination to do for your child.
I mean, I know you were forward detective. I know
you had some skill. None of that to me came
into play here.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
You utilize technology that you weren't that familiar with, that
you never used in your job. You were fearless in
who you contacted and who you asked for help. And
I'll tell it to me when you take you and
that tipster because of you, and then law enforcement because
of the tipster, That's how you get at this capture.
(34:52):
There's no other way to look at it. There's not
this is you. So when you say I don't know
how long affair I do I do, You're going to
walk in that place like the ball you are.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
You're gonna look right at him. You're going to testify,
and he's going to stay in jail for the rest
of his natural life. That is what I'm hoping to do.
I'm you know, I just you know, for me, I've
always avoided learning all the details. I mean, just the
stuff you describe right now, with things that I recently
learned off because everybody else knew about it, I didn't.
(35:28):
I just chose not to, and I wanted to add
as you know, and this is where my peace comes in. Okay.
You know, when when I first got worded that she
was killed, and during the time that I was grieving
and everything else, and the only you know, everybody's boys
just kind of faded in the background, I heard a voice,
very loud and clear that said, Josephine, your daughter's spirit
(35:55):
was taken by an angel before Satan had his way
with her body. And this is the only thing that
keeps me going is what I've heard from God and
his guidance. And that's what you know keeps me going.
So when I say I don't know how I'm gonna fare,
you know I've been fighting. The biggest struggle for me
(36:17):
is my spirit and my flesh. My flesh ones were
in band. I've had a plot and plan this whole
time I was looking for him. I had to repent
over and over and over for my thoughts. Then the
spirit that says, you know, let God handle it. That's
been my struggle back and forth. That's why I say
(36:38):
I'm not I mean, I just want to go there
and just jump it and slap the hand out of them.
I know that's not going to happen. And I know
if I even attempted anything like that, they throw me
out of court right banned me from the trial. So
you know, it's it's a struggle, it really is. I
mean it's a struggle of you know, letting it go,
letting God or you know, take it into your hands.
(37:01):
And I say, it's easier when you let God handle it,
because then you don't have to carry the burden no
matter what happened. And that's my struggle. I'm not trying
to turn this into a religious show or anything like that.
You know, there are some people that don't believe. Some
people struggle whatever. It's not about religion at all. It's
about how I'm making it and how I did it.
You know, the people say you're so strong, No, I'm weak.
(37:23):
Remember I told you about that person inside of me
screaming and crying. That's me. That's who I am. The
outside is what you see God owing in the app
and making me somebody different, and he's my strength. You know,
I'm hoping that McLeod is not released back into society.
(37:44):
I really believe, with all my heart's soul in mind
that this was not his first murder and this will
not be his last, and he needs to be contained
in that cell. He really does. And I hope to
God that he gets convicted of first degree murder and
that he serves the rest of his life in prison. Josephine,
(38:07):
thank you so much for sharing this with us. Thank
you for being my friend, Thank you for being a
part of my Zone.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Seven, and I want you to know we are all
standing with you next week.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Thank you. I really appreciate it, and take care, y'all.
Want to get an end Zone seven the way that
I always do.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
With a quote, I've said it before, and I'll say
it again.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
He messed with the wrong Mama.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
San Diego District Attorney Somers dat. I'm Cheryl McCollum and
this is Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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