December 18, 2024 • 46 mins
On February 13, 2017, teenage friends Liberty German and Abigail Williams went for a walk near Delphi, Indiana, but never returned home. The next day, their bodies were found in a clearing, victims of a brutal murder. Liberty recorded a blurry video of the man approaching them in her final moments, capturing his gruff command: “Down the hill.” The haunting clues sparked public obsession and rampant speculation online, while investigators explored every lead. Despite years of effort, the case remained unsolved, leaving a community searching for answers.
Guest Bio and Links:
Susan Hendricks is a renowned journalist from HLN, podcaster, and author. Áine Cain is a journalist and co-host of Murder Sheet. Kevin Greenlee is an attorney and co-host of Murder Sheet.
Resources:
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, is joined by journalists Susan Hendricks, Áine Cain, and attorney Kevin Greenlee as they share their powerful experiences from the Delphi trial. They primarily highlight moments of camaraderie, the emotional toll of witnessing evidence, and the struggles of maintaining accuracy amidst misinformation. Áine and Kevin discuss their dynamic approach to covering the trial, while Susan shares personal anecdotes that emphasize the human connection forged through this shared experience. They also reflect on the remarkable grace of the victims’ families and the resilience required to endure the trial's grueling schedule and rules.
Show Notes:
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(0:00) Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
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(0:15) Sheryl introduces guests, Áine Cain, Kevin Greenlee, and returning guest, Susan Hendricks to the listeners
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(1:00) Reminiscing the experience of the true crime community
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(2:30) Courtroom experiences and observations
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(3:45) Behind the scenes with journalists
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(6:00) Áine and Kevin share their teamwork strategy
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(14:00) Susan recounts humorous moments waiting outside
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(15:00) Áine describes journaling under pressure
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(23:00) Condemning sensationalism and misinformation
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(28:00) The failures in the defense strategies
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(30:00) Legal stunts used in court
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(31:30) Jury questions impress Sheryl with their sophistication
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(35:00) Áine and Kevin reflect on their favorite parts of Delphi
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(41:00) Áine speaks about the emotional toll of the crime scene evidence
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(44:00) Journalistic challenges and accuracy
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Thanks for listening to another episode! If you’re loving the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to Itunes and leave a rating and review!
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Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a collaboration between universities and colleges that brings researchers, practitioners, students and the criminal justice community together to advance techniques in solving cold cases and assist families and law enforcement with solvability factors for unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnapping cases.
Social Links:
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Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Tonight, I have got a special group of folks with me. Y'all,
We're going to go behind the scenes in Delphi. What
was it really like? What were the rules? What was
the weather? Did you really have to camp out to
get a seat? While I was there, what I witnessed
(00:30):
was just something amazing. I saw a true crime community
come together and work as a team. People have actually
said to my face, this could not be true. I'm
telling you I saw it, and I will tell you
I wasn't there every single day. I was there one night,
(00:54):
two days in court, and half a day the next day.
That's all I was able to be there. But I
am telling you, in that short amount of time, as
soon as my sister and I got to the courthouse,
we were met by a friendly officer who told us
exactly where to go part so we wouldn't get toad
or get a ticket. The next thing we walk in,
(01:16):
we see where they're lining up and there's a young
reporter local named Hannah Grace. She was so helpful giving
us the rundown. Next thing, Honey, here comes Susan Hendrix.
We all adore her. We just have such a wonderful
time talking. Then Barbara McDonald and Bob Mauda come over
(01:37):
and say hello. Then I saw somebody I had never
met in person before, Kevin Greenley. So I go over,
speak very briefly, incredibly friendly. Everybody was just giving you
the rundown and telling me what was going on. And
then we were ushered upstairs and I'm standing there talking
with my sister and Susan, and this lady comes up,
(02:01):
super friendly, she goes, hey, I just wanted to say hey,
and it's an A Caine. So I'm telling you my
experience was overwhelmingly positive. And you know, then the families,
the families were I don't even know how to tell
y'all how remarkable because Liberty's grandmama brought banana bread for everybody.
(02:26):
I didn't see any fighting, I didn't see any fussing.
I didn't see anything negative. But look again, I wasn't
there every day. So I am thrilled to say, we
have Anna Caine, Kevin Greenley, and Susan Hendrix with us
tonight to tell us the real deal. Who was fighting
(02:49):
and fussing, who was ugly, who got arrested, who was
having affairs. We're gonna talk about all of it and
again and I cannot tell you how much it meant
to me to have such an outpouring of camaraderie. So
y'all please help me. Welcome Anna and Kevin and Susan
(03:13):
to Zone seven.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Thank you for having us, Cheryl, thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yes, and listen. Y'all know Susan Hendrick, She's been here
hl N podcaster, author, y'all know her, you love her.
But you know An and Kevin have not been here yet.
But let me tell you both are incredible journalists. They
have a podcast that is second to none called Murder Sheets.
(03:38):
If you don't know, go there right now. And Kevin
is an attorney, so he's got an extra level of
insight that he can give. So let's get into what
really went down in del Fi. Y'all. Susan, I'm gonna
start with you because you were the first one that
I saw that I knew. It looked to me before
I got there, the chair without five starting at about
(04:01):
four point thirty in the morning. I was like, hmmm,
I don't know that I can do that, and then
it looked like there were so many rules put down
by the judge. Yeah, really, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
And it's funny because before coming on your show. I
texted Ay and Kevin and said, I'm so excited we're
all gonna be on together, because I thought they had
been on your show before, and I would have said,
oh my gosh, this is such a treat. And Cheryl,
you're like everyone's best friend and you're so kind, and
it was such a seeing you there with your sister online.
So going back to when you said when you walked
(04:33):
in that courthouse and there were rules and who you saw.
So I walked down the stairs from a break from
court and you have to line up again for lunch.
I see Cheryl and I see Hannah, who you were
talking about. I went, Oh my gosh, hugging them and
I said, oh my gosh, you've met Hannah. Because I
was just telling my husband last night it's hard to
fully explain how close I am to all of the
(04:56):
people there. Any and Kevin are my best friends, and
going through what you've been through, it's hard to even
put into words. And he said, I get it, because
here's an example. Hannah, who is lined up now with
Cheryl and her sister Charlene. The first night, before opening statements,
I would call Anya and Kevin. They were my intel
what time do you think we should line up and
(05:16):
what time.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Should we be there?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
And we had chairs because we had been to jury
selection together in Alan Kenny. So we're there and we're
lined up. I believe it was eleven thirty maybe midnight
that night because opening statements, we weren't sure and you
never know. An Ay and Kevin, I've experienced it with
this jury selection. Wasn't so bad with lining up, so
we were there all night. I meet several people in
(05:40):
that line, including Hannah. As time picks on, it is freezing.
I ordered Cheryl so many things from Amazon, handwarmers, feet
warmerspy blankets, shaders, a scarf because I made the mistake
during a jury selection didn't have that. So I thought
I was ready and it starts getting colder and colder.
Really wasn't working that well, and I see Hannah laying
(06:03):
on the ground with a lot of blankets. She gets up,
young journalist in her twenties, and I said, where are
you going? She said, in my news van. I said,
I'm coming with you, so I followed her. We walked
behind this church in Delphi. I get in the back seat.
She blares the heat and as I'm walking it's that cold, like,
oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, I'm talking to myself.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
I get in the back seat. I lay my head down.
The heat's blaring. I was never so grateful, and I
kind of fall asleep because I hadn't slept even the
night before either, because I was traveling to Delphi from
Allen County. I didn't get much sleep the night before,
so I lay down. I'm used to the smell of
news vans. It was a comforting place, like crumbs on
my cheeks. I didn't care. I lay down, and I'm
(06:42):
kind of in and out of sleep, and I hear
a train and in my dream, I think, oh my gosh,
she's so young. She accidentally parked on a train track.
And then I hear a blaring train horn, and I
jump up and scream and she screams. Then we both
start laughing, and then we'd both fall back asleep for
an hour and they get back into line. So that's
when I come down the stairs from the court room
(07:04):
into the entryway and I see Cheryl and Hannah. It's
like I knew Hanna just as well as I've known Cheryl,
because at that particular point, I think we knew each
other like nine days, and so there was a struggle
outside of court to even get in. And Ani and
Kevin can attest to this. So once you're in and
you never really want to complain. First of all, the
judge does not care. Second of all, you don't want
(07:27):
to complain about something you've been through considering what the families.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Have to see that day.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
So it was kind of like we kept it to
ourselves and it slowly leaked out, and you brought up Becky, Patty,
it slowly leaked out to the families, and this is
We'll tell you how wonderful they are. They would come
to the line as people started to line up at
two in the morning. Tara, Libby's aunt would bring pizza
from the dog House, a place where she works at night,
bringing pizza and been out of bread, you name it.
(07:52):
So the family even cared about us waiting in line,
not to mention having to go into that court every day.
So that's my little story about just how close everyone
got because of the amount of time had struggled you
had to go to get into that courtroom. And one
last thing here that Becky did say, you know, they
care about having Livy this much to line up, I'm
(08:13):
going to make it as comfortable as I possibly can.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So no, amen, And I think everybody got that sense.
If you were there for ten minutes, you understood that.
Watching all of y'all's post, we understood y'all were going
to be battle buddies. That's all there is to it.
And you know, Anna and Kevin, I got to just
say to y'all here, you're away from home, you're tired.
(08:36):
I mean, y'all had to be exhausted. Y'all are married,
so you know you've got that little he can bug
me just because he's breathing, you know, And y'all had
to deal with that on top of making sure y'all
did get into the courtroom because y'all were given updates
every night. So tell us a little bit about juggling
(09:01):
your spot, how you were going to take notes, how
y'all were going to figure out, Hey, what do we
lead with? What do we break down? And tail folks.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Absolutely, And I just want to say though, before we
get into that, that Susan summed it up so well,
but I just want to add, like we would be
frozen solid outside of Fort Wayne to this day without
Susan Hendrix, because she's the one who basically was like,
we need to strategize, we need to get the chairs,
we need to get the blankets. So like she really
saved our lives again and again throughout this whole thing.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
But I would say in addition to that, Kevin and
I talked beforehand and we both decided, hey, like any
little weird thing that maybe would annoy us normally, we're
going to be like Elsa from Frozen and let it go.
During this process, we do not we do not have
the bandwidth to get into petty arguments and we kind
(09:54):
of need to save our energy. So we went in
with some intentionality there, and I think we both held
to that pretty well. We're not perfect, but I think
we pretty much kind of kept that throughout the process,
and that allowed us to more of help each other
kind of get through it rather than sort of become like, oh,
you're not editing this right like, you know, we kind
(10:15):
of were like, we're just just writing off a lot
of that right now. And I think that was good
in terms of one thing, people I think thought we
should have done more of, which which I understand their
point was we should have switched off more so one
of us would do one day and the other way
the other day. We kind of felt like at some point,
like part of our show is that we're both giving
(10:37):
you our perspectives, and we have slightly different perspectives, Me
being a journalist, Kevin being attorney, as having different life experiences.
So we did try to get in. We kept saying
we were going to alternate, but then we never really
ended up doing that, and I guess we just all
kind of gott in a groove where, you know, I
guess maybe a lack of a group because as I'm
sure Susan alluded to, the rules would kind of change
(11:00):
the day about what the best's practices for getting in
were and what you should do, and like the line
kept on forming earlier and things kept on getting more
and more wild. So but yeah, I think we just
we tried to be communicative with each other and then
with folks like Susan and other folks who you know,
we felt like we're there for the right reasons and
were you know, there's kind of a little community forming
(11:20):
that was really nice, and Cheryl was so nice to
meet you and your sister. I'm so glad you guys
got to be there on a day where I feel
like the day you guys came was a good day
in terms of, you know, there was nothing too wild
going on and it was a nice collegial day.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah. I thought it was for me one of the
most important days to hear being a crime scene investigator.
I just thought there was a lot of information that
you know, cleared some things up for me. You know,
as I watched y'all, Charlene and I even talked about
why aren't they, you know, giving each other a break
every other day, you know, if you had that built in.
(11:56):
But then when I watched y'all work, I thought, no,
they made the right call. You did need each other.
And then there was a time, you know, like I
even noticed Kevin was able to save a spot while
maybe you went and got something to eat and brought
it back to him, and you know, you could actually
have a break and then not worry that you were
going to lose any position because it was something to watch.
(12:20):
And I'll tell you the other thing watching you know what,
I would consider you know, real journalists. I'm not a journalist,
And so to watch y'all, I was sitting there that
very first day, and right out of the gate, I
didn't even think anything was really happening yet. And y'all
were already on page two or three of notes, and
(12:41):
I'm like, we don't even have a witness. What are
they writing like?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And Cheryl I sat right next to them the whole time.
I have to say a couple of things of relationship
calls with them. I sat next to them the whole
time outside in the freezing cold, and I'm thinking to myself,
if Joe is here, would be blaming him for something.
Maybe I don't know if they're not. And there was
this kind of flow on their show where when you said, okay,
you know we're all together, they just have a I
(13:07):
told them it was like a watching a tennis match
between them and just the way they work together. And
I have a funny story. They kept moving the goal posts.
Really as we got used to okay, we're going to
line up at this time, we got our groove day
maybe ten to eleven. Nope, moving the goalposts kept ander toes,
So you had to wait in line if you wanted
to come in during the lunch session. And somehow that
(13:30):
day I came in. I couldn't make the morning session,
so I was coming in after the break or I
don't know. My days are kind of one is going
at they're combining. But it was a day where I
got into the court room after a break. I believe
it may have been a lunch break, and Anya's right
behind me and Kevin.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
I'm like, no, they can't.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Maybe Kevin had gotten in but Anya didn't.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
So I went back out once everyone was seated, and
I thought I was doing them a favor, and I went,
excuse me, because most of the deputies were very nice,
ninety nine point nine percent and they had a to do.
And I said, excuse me, there's two empty seats in there,
and he's this massive guy, and he goes, worry about
your own seat. I'm like, okay, fine, I ran back here.
So that's just a war story.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Sure I wanted to share. And you know, I think
that was the thing when I watched all of you,
just the amount of note taken, because normally you would
be able to have your phone, you would be able to,
you know, go out do a quick hit on TV
and come back in. You'd be able to go to
(14:34):
the restroom. Even that judge had it where if you
left that courtroom you could not re enter, which was
so unusual for me. And the courtroom was so little,
but the amount of to me just old school note taken.
That was just something to behold watching y'all work with
(14:58):
a legal pad and some pens.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Yeah, it was really stressful because I'm not used to
taking notes like that. I think Anya has more of
a background in that than I do, So that's another
great reason why it was so wonderful that I was
able to work with someone as wonderful and as professional
as Anya, because I know if I missed something here
or there, I can be certain that she was going
(15:20):
to get it. And frankly, there were some days when
you know, we'd be have to get up like a
two or three in the morning to go and stand
in line, and then we'd be in court all day,
go back to where we were staying record and pretty
much be done with that like at nine or ten,
and be lucky to get just a few hours sleep.
(15:41):
So there'll be times I would be kind of almost
nodding off a bit, or having trouble staying alert in court.
So it was really reassuring to me to know that
Anya had my back.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I'm going to say this though, Cheryl, like, and that
was and that's so true of Kevin, to where he
would understand the legal stuff going on where I'd be
like thinking, like, what what does this even mean? Like
you know, speak English somebody. But but with this, it
was kind of a nightmare for me because I'm a
reporter with horrifically bad handwriting, to the point where like
(16:14):
I feel like a dozen times in court I've had
people lean over me and say, oh, that's so cool,
you know shorthand, and it's like, no.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
This is how I write.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
And I was, honestly, with Kevin's knowledge, I lean over
not in court or we would be tapped on the
shoulder and never heard from again because we were all
scared of Judge gall I joke, but uh, just the
intelligence that Kevin has and the ability. It's just I
felt like they were good friends of mine, and I
felt comfortable with them enough so to wait in line
(16:47):
and also inside the court room. And I have to
do a hit on the Menendez hearing today on Merritt
Street Media, But I want to read this text real quick, Cheryl.
If I could that, I wrote to them laughter, ask
her speech, I'm kidding, but I said, I can't believe
I didn't see you guys after the verdict. I feel
like I'm writing a yearbook post, but honestly, I don't
think I would have lasted here without you both. You
(17:09):
bring sanity and intelligence to a story that somehow attracts
the opposite at times. If this was senior year, eighth
grade was jury selection, whether you like it or not,
we're lifetime BFFs.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Love it.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Susan is like the best, and like literally you brought
such like I don't know, hope and compassion to this
whole miserable process, and like just the empathy that you
bring to families and victims' families is just I don't know.
You inspire me, and so we love Susan.
Speaker 5 (17:37):
One of it was so wonderful to get to know Susan.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, even better, I feel like we feel close. We
went we were summers. We went through some serious stuff together.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, absolutely did. And what's to me ironic about what's
happening right now? This was your life in Delpha. You
had other obligations with Nancy Grace and News Nation. You
would have to go run to another story and then
get back to Delpha. So tonight is, you know, pretty
similar to what you lived. So I appreciate you as always,
(18:06):
and I and I will talk about y'all.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Love you, Cheryl, and I am all right, honey, okay,
thanks bye.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
And you know, y'all, that's another thing like when I
was there, you know, having Susan there. She mentioned high school,
so it's almost like that ninth grader that has a
neighbor that's a senior, so when you see him in
the hall, you feel, oh, like this is going to
be okay, I know him. You know, That's kind of
how I felt with Susan, like she's going to be
able to tell us the ropes real quick. And you know,
I had a chance to, you know, go to lunch
(18:36):
with her, and I had a chance to have dinner
with Kelsey, and I had a chance to have dinner
with you know, Barbara McDonald. And there's just something that
hit me that this community that is normally very competitive,
y'all just seemed so open to help each other. I
(18:56):
mean it looked to me like y'all realized pretty quick, Hey,
if we fight each other, we're all going to fail.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Exactly and and you know anything for us, you know,
having you know, and and and Susan is such like
an emblem of that because she's incredibly generous with her
time energy. You can tell she's a person who wants
to make people aware of the facts so that they're
getting the story right. And so everyone's doing an honorable
job covering this horrible situation, if that makes sense, And
(19:26):
so sort of we take inspiration from that. And and
just you know, having covered it pre trial, we were
able to connect with different journalists covering it over time,
and so that kind of gave us some familiarity and
and our our goal has always been similar, like we
want people to get the facts so that they can
cover it. And in a situation where it seems sort
of seems like we're all like running uphill to get
(19:47):
the facts, it kind of becomes even more important to
kind of help each other up the hill if if
if we need to.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I mean, I saw everybody share a notes making sure,
hey did I hear them say this, And people were like, no, no,
it was this. They were like, oh, thank you, because
they don't want to get it wrong. But it just
didn't look cutthroat. It didn't look negative to me. And again,
I wasn't there every day, and I did hear, Oh,
there was some YouTubers that got into a fight, and
(20:15):
there was somebody else that said something that wasn't correct
and refused to correct it and all that. But I
didn't know what was true and what was rumor, which
is another reason I wanted to talk to y'all because
my experience was so positive. But you sit outside and
it's thirty below and you've got to spend the night
(20:35):
in a chair to make sure you can sit then
on a wooden bench all day and not get a break,
you might get a little irritated.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, I think it wasn't all sunshine. I think, you know,
it was definitely sort of a kumbaya period where everyone
seemed to be getting along very well, and as time
went on, needy around the time when the defense started
their case, I felt like there was a shift that
kind of grow more apparent over time where I felt
(21:06):
like some people were there who were just kind of
rabble rousers, I guess wouldn't be a nice way of
putting it, and sort of like you kind of wonder
about the intentionality there and what's going on with that,
and there was some There were some incidents, for sure,
but generally I would say given the circumstances and given
(21:26):
all of I guess, just like everything, it was surprisingly
collegial for the most part. Were there were flare ups.
Don't get me wrong, but I guess the first couple
days I was thinking, Wow, this is going to turn
into a riot tomorrow, and it didn't. It really didn't.
For the most part.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
I think the fact that the family was right there,
and the fact that the family so obviously cared about
everyone in line, including people in that line who frankly
had said some terrible things about the family. The family
still cared about those people. The family was still bringing
them food. The family wasn't making any distinctions. They weren't saying, oh,
(22:07):
if you said bad things, were not going to give
you pizza. Everybody got pizza, and I think the fact
that they did that really set an example for everyone.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, I can't overstate what I witnessed. As far as
Abby and Libby's families, I've never been so shocked in
my life. When her aunt turns to me and says,
do you need a cushion? You and charleyne need a cushion,
and I'm like, are they seriously trying to take care
of us? Like that blew my mind on a level
(22:41):
of just grace and love and we're going to look
out for everybody here. I was not expecting that I
took the cushion now, because you know that bench it
was comfortable for about four hours, but past that it
was not comfortable.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
You know.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
But that's who they are. And I think even the folks,
because there were a few people there that you know,
had something to say about the crime scene photos being
leaked or blaming Celtsey. I mean, obviously I don't subscribe
to either of that. I think that anybody that would
share the crime scene photographs, in my opinion, you are
(23:20):
sharing child porn and you should be arrested. That child
is fourteen and she is not clothed. There's no gray
area for me on that. There's not even a discussion.
I'm not going to debate you. That to me is
a hell I'm fine on by myself. And the other thing,
(23:40):
of course, is you know, when you publicly want to
blame a clear victim, that's not okay. And if you're
doing it to be sensational and you're doing it because
you want to get clicks or likes or whatever it
is that puts you in a different category for me.
And again, and that's not something that I'm going to
(24:02):
add any energy to at all.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Agreed, And yeah, we're we're at a point where we've
seen that Libby's family in particular go through so much
over this case and be subjected to so many ludicrous,
frankly accusations that I kind of feel like we need
to clean house and true crime. We need to start
basically showing people the door when they're behaving that way,
because I just don't it doesn't add anything. I'm a
(24:25):
big free speech advocate whatever like that doesn't mean that
I think we should be sort of cozying up to
and supporting any creators who are kind of flirting with that,
because it's just like it's garbage, it's it's it doesn't
doesn't serve the truth, it doesn't serve anything except basically
people's bottom lines. And also a spirit of meanness that's
just totally not okay, especially in a case like this.
(24:48):
And so the fact that some people were taking what
obviously was already a very difficult time for family members
and taking that to attack those family members based on
nothing was just it was infuriating and frankly, at times
it made me really despair because I was like, you know,
we're trying to put out the truth. I know others
are here trying to put out the truth, but it
just felt at times it was sort of futile because
(25:10):
the sort of the misinformation machines were just cranking and
cranking and cranking.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Oh yeah, it does seem that way. Yeah, you know,
a lot of times those are going to be the
loudest group for whatever reason. You know, they're going to
post and repost and make all these comments, where sometimes
the people that are on the side of true justice,
they're not that loud all the time, but they'll show up.
If you keep, you know, going left, they will force
(25:39):
you at some point to go right, I believe, but
it just wasn't happening around me.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Also, people are cowards, so Cheryl like, if they're like,
if I'm mouthing off around Cheryl, She's probably gonna be like, no,
thank you. And people don't want it. Like people will
kind of quiet down when they're away from their keyboard.
I think that's been one key thing.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, yeah, that keyboard bravery is something that just makes
me laugh. And especially these folks. You know, y'all use
your real names. You are out there. You know people
can look you up and find you. These people they're
not using their real name, they're not using their real photograph,
and they're saying things that are so bizarre just to
(26:19):
shock you. And then you know, once you take them
to task, they will go away or they'll block you,
so you know they certainly aren't going to walk up
to you in person.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yes, that is that's definitely been our experience that point.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I would sometimes I wish they would walk up to
me in person when there's a camera rolling. That would
be fantastic. You want to you want to step to
somebody and let's have a conversation, especially about Kelsey. Let's
freaking do it.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I would pay to see guy.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Look at the backup I have. I have the two
of you, I've got Susan, I've got Barbara, I've got
all these people that they know the truth. They've been there,
they've walked it. They have to under stand it. So
even if you say, well let's look again at Ron Logan,
or let's look again, you know at Keegan Klein, fine,
I can respect that, yes, if you want to look
(27:10):
at them, because they were probably not perfect people. I
am with you one hundred percent, but you cannot tell
me the facts that y'all sat through day after day
after day. You're gonna ignore. One example that I did
see personally was the day that the expert for the
(27:35):
state spoke about the striations and the firearm and the
unspent cartridge matching. I thought she was unwavering. I thought
she addressed that jury beautifully, she answered questions beautifully, She
didn't need to refer to her notes. She was very positive.
She was just laser focused on she believed she was correct.
(28:02):
That resonated with me. Well that night, I kept seeing
a lot of these people. All they were reporting was
an alternate was excused. I'm like, wait a minute, you're
not going to talk about how well this witness did.
You're just gonna make it seem like somebody got dismissed for,
you know, some negative reason, which wasn't true either. So
(28:25):
I did see that happen.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Cheryl. I'm so glad you said that, because at times
it felt like we were losing our minds because we'd
be seeing the same thing, and we'd be like, why
is no one talking about that? And then we'll like, well,
maybe we're over emphasizing it. But you saw it too,
Like there were things like that where it was just
like I just think sometimes people don't understand what they're
seeing and then it like the other meriative kind of
(28:49):
takes over. But I agree with you. I thought Melissa
Oberg was an excellent.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, she whooped there behind. I even turned to my
sister at one point and said, he needs to stop
asking her questions because and I want to ask Kevin this. Kevin,
there was a part where she was testifying and the
defense attorney he jumps up and says objection, and the
(29:15):
judgment she's your witness right now.
Speaker 6 (29:19):
Like you got to let her finish, and he did
not want her to finish because he realized I've asked
her the wrong thing, Like she's even deeper now correct
in what she did.
Speaker 5 (29:31):
Yeah, that sort of thing was striking, and to be honest,
it happened more than once where the defense team would
make basic errors that the judge would call them on,
like objecting to a witness, answering a question you asked,
or trying to keep someone in an improper way. It
(29:54):
was really genuinely shocking because I really expected to see
a higher quality of legal work from these people.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, I was shot by that. And you know some
of the things, if you've been around the courthouse enough,
I mean, this is my fortieth year. I mean so
I've seen plenty of trials, some really good, some really bad.
But you know, some of the stuff just kind of
seems like a stunt. And I don't think it was
lost on this jury. When you have Richard Allen slumping
(30:27):
down in his chair and they put the largest events
attorney next to him so he looks even more weak
and pitiful, they didn't buy it.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yes, I think we saw that too. There seemed to
be a bit of a fatigue around the Allan is,
you know, an innocent victim of all this narrative, and
they tried to get to that by showing videos of
him having a hard time in prison. They tried to
get to that by some of the theatrics that you're
talking about, and even by having people testify that he
was a fragile egg who really couldn't get on in life.
(30:58):
And I think what the jury basically said, what the
verdict is Okay, but does that mean he couldn't have
killed two kids when the evidence is what it is
against him. And so we saw the logic win over
some of the emotion.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I think, well, I'll tell you the thing that shot
the daylight that of me. I had never seen a
jury be able to ask questions, And as I sat there,
I'm like, they're pretty sophisticated. Like they weren't asking what
does DNA stand forward they knew and as I watched
those questions come through, it was real clear to me
(31:33):
what side they were on.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I think we had a similar time. I think there
were a couple of times where I was like, well,
I think they're asking tough questions of the prosecution where
they're not just buying everything. They're saying they want follow up,
they want reassurance. But generally they seem to be focusing
more on the actual crime rather than all of the
noise around us.
Speaker 5 (31:53):
Yeah, the defense seemed to not want to actually talk
about the crime. The defense wanted to talk about everything else,
to try to like wave shiny keys in front of
the jury and say, oh, isn't it awful that Richard
Allen was treated allegedly badly after he was arrested, or
here's what a witness who was at the bridge an
(32:15):
hour after the crime, what they saw, and none of
this stuff is relevant. And I think the jury picked
up on that, and the jurors questions really showed we
want to talk about the crime. And I think it's
wonderful that Indiana does allow jurors to ask questions. And
I wanted to give the prosecution kudos because there was
(32:37):
one point where a juror asked a question and they
didn't have an answer for it, and so they went
and did subsequent investigation and then kind of answered the
jurors question like a day or two later.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Yeah, you see the kind of both sides trying to
play with what they're getting asked. At one point on
Bald when one of the defense attorneys actually adopted sort
of one juror would always start her questions if you know,
and then and continue with your question, he started saying that.
So you saw both sides sort of try to cater
to the jurors a little bit by incorporating some of that,
(33:08):
which I thought.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Was kind of neat.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I'm so glad you mentioned that because our friends, the
prosecutors Bretton Alice. I know when we were talking about
jury questions, I think they had the idea that like
jurors were maybe jumping up from their seats and asking,
and like, we had this wild system in Indiana, and
it's a situation where they can, you know, as you saw,
they can write down the question that's given to a
judge and the parties and then they can all determine
(33:32):
if it's an appropriate question. So there are some checks
and balances to ensure that nothing inappropriate gets to ask.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
And you know, it was funny because I love bretton Alice.
I adore everything about them, and when I first heard it,
that's kind of what I had in my head, and
I was not about it. I thought, this is going
to be chaos, somebody crazy, He's going to jump up
and you know what I mean, ask crazy our balance
type questions and throw everything off. It was not like
(34:01):
that at all. And after watching it, I'm like, why
we doing this everywhere?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I think it encourages the jurors to pay attention because
I think when you're like listen, I when I'm hearing
a lecture on something and I have no idea what's
going on, and I have no ability to follow it.
I think I'm going to be much more likely to
zone out at some point, whereas if I can say, Okay,
well tell me about this and then someone can come
back to me, then I'm like, okay, now I'm learning.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
And also for joorneys on both sides, it's a really
useful tool because if the jurors are asking questions about
this point for that point, it tells you what is
not clear about your case. It's telling you what you
can do to sharpen your case and make your arguments
clearer to the jury. It's really quite useful.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Kevin, I thought that same thing, And you know, just
like you were saying on one thing that I thought
is you've got somebody that doesn't have to sit there
for a whole week to get an answer something. They
can get it answered and cleared up right now, so
that as they're kind of thinking through the night, and
then once they get to deliberation, I think it's going
(35:10):
to be a lot faster because they're not having to
go back and ask these nine questions they've had all week.
All right, let me ask you both this, what was
the best part, like something you really miss about the
experience and what is something you don't ever want to
do again.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
The thing I miss is hanging out with Susan every day,
and also not just Susan, but like and she'll tell
you this too. There's a little community, right We mentioned
it at the top. There are people I felt like
I knew of but I got to know even better,
knew people that I met that I really respected. We
hung out a lot with Lauren from Hidden True Crime.
Her team is amazing. I love the work they did,
(35:50):
and they just came into it with just such open
minds and did an amazing job covering it. And so
there's experiences like that. There's YouTubers that we knew for
years and we got to spend more time with them.
So all of that, the social angle of it could
be very nice. When there were nice people around, and
it was it was certainly like we're all in this
(36:11):
together to a certain degree. And I will say I
missed Delfi I I kind of like we'd spend a
lot of time there, but spending so much time there
it really made me love the city even more. It
is a place with a lot of wonderful people. I
(36:31):
remember when we were waiting for the verdict We'd wander
around a lot and people would just pop out of
stores and say hi and give us a cookie, and
it was like, wow, this is so nice, Like I mean,
it was really sweet and and just that kind of
speaks to what Delphi is like. It's just generous, nice
normal people and a nice, normal town.
Speaker 7 (36:49):
And it a horrible thing happened there, but seeing that,
seeing Libby's family sort of feed the public, seeing all
of that was lovely.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Kevin, do you want to do your favorite part? And
then we can get really negative.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
My favorite.
Speaker 5 (37:07):
My favorite party is very similar to Anya's. The sense
of community was something really remarkable, and the sense of
everybody being available and trying to help each other. I'm
someone we've talked about Amazon, especially Susan was talking about Amazon.
We have an Alexa and so sometimes during the day,
you know, you say, oh, Alexa, what's the temperature? Or Alexa,
(37:28):
what's this or what's that? And during this trial you
had like human versions of Alexa, because if, oh, when
was this particular motion filed? You could just say the
question out loud and someone standing nearby would be able
to give you the answer. And it was just having
the resource that is all of these people's collective knowledge
(37:48):
about this case was really one.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I can't agree more, and I will speak for Susan
only because she and I talked about this, and one
thing she said to me was, to her, it was
almost like camp that all these strangers kind of came together.
Maybe some people you knew from school, but for the
most part you didn't know everybody, and you just become
fast friends because you're in this thing together. And that's
(38:12):
the way she, you know, equated it that it was
like summer camp.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Absolutely, Kevin, what's your negative things? You can start off
and then I'll get into mind and Kevin.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Before you say anything, keep in mind, she said, let's
get real negative. It's going to be.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
It's going to be going to be so it's going
to drag the whole mood of.
Speaker 5 (38:30):
This whole thingccount, Well, I mean, I'm basic. I like
to eat, I like to have my lunch, I like
to have my breakfast. And if you left the court
for lunch, you weren't going to get back in for
the afternoon session. And also, if you eat or drink
too much and you have to use the restroom later,
(38:51):
you're not gonna be able to get back in so
I really missed eating, I missed doing things other than
work and sleeping. That's basically all we did. I miss
having a life outside of work.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I think that was bad for me. I'd say my
two worst things are tied. Maybe one edge is the
other act slightly. I think a lot of people who
were there felt the same way as I did. I
don't think I was alone in this, but the pressure
to get accurate information out was really immense because I
(39:31):
felt that there was a lot of misinformation coming out.
Some of that was bad actors, and then in other
cases it was actually just accidental where people wires would
get crossed, and you know, having been there, Cheryl, you
can see how that happens. It doesn't like somebody can say, oh,
they said that, and then like you know, they tell
a colleague and then that's the news story. And it's like,
(39:52):
no one is a bad journalist in that situation. No
one is a bad person. It's just a mistake. But
you know, kind of seeing how that can happen, it
really was quite stressful because we did not want to
be responsible for that. And then the thing that was
worse for me was, I guess seeing what happened to
(40:14):
those girls. I wish I could unsee some of the
images and evidence that.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
We all were shown. And I think that you know,
that's something that's going to stay with you. We have
a term in criminal justice that we use. You can't
unring a bell, and that's true. That bell has rung
for you, Anna, and that's it. You aren't going to
(40:41):
be able to forget it. It's going to be a
part of you. I also believe that that's the kind
of thing that will make you a better journalist. I'm
one of those people when the powers that be say, oh,
you can't show these particular images because it'll inflame the jury,
I believe they should be inflamed. Murder is ugly, it
(41:02):
is horrible, It is horrific. You cannot get it unless
you're shown the truth. And I say, show it, just
like the videos of Richard Allen. Show them. It's not
supposed to be pleasant. He ain't at club med, he's
in prison. It's supposed to be a deterrent. Of course,
(41:22):
he's not doing great there. Nobody would be doing great there.
That's why you ain't supposed to go there. But to me,
by you even saying, hey, I'm going to go here
and I'm going to subject myself to this knowing that
it's going to affect me. I even have more respect
(41:42):
for you.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
And I agree with you. I think I think we
have to bear witness to this. It's it's as you said,
it's it's not nice, it's not pretty, it's not it's
it's awful. It's the worst thing you can imagine. And
that's what the photos show. And I think, in my opinion,
and I don't this is speculation. This isn't based on anything,
because obviously no one's heard from the jury aside from
(42:06):
their verdict. But I imagine that for the jury, those photos
may have underscored who the real victims in this case were,
and that's Abby and Libby, and what they went through
was horrifying. Their last moments were horrifying, and kind of
all everything else sort of was a distraction.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
And Kevin, what do you think about inflaming the jury?
Do you think that I'm right or that most judges
are right?
Speaker 5 (42:33):
I think you're right. I don't think you can ask
a juror to weigh in with a judgment about a
crime if they don't have the tools to understand what
exactly that crime is. They need to see it, they
need to understand what happened, otherwise their decision is going
to be uninformed. And it is important. It's not like
(42:56):
on television. It's awful, it's a thing to see, but
we do need to look and understand that this is
what's happening to some people in this country.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Well stated. And I will say just this last thing.
When you were talking Anna about you don't want to
have wrong information, you don't want to put something out
that it's not correct. I had such a laughing attack
when they were talking about you know what. Richard Allen
said that he saw half the people online were saying
(43:29):
white van, the other half were saying white man. I thought,
there you go. You hear what you hear, and you
want to put it out so quick that sometimes you know,
may not be perfect. But y'all had a job that
was unbelievable. Y'all all, and I mean every one of you,
(43:54):
even the people that I don't agree with, And there
was some people there that we are never going to
see this the same way. And I will openly tell you.
People say, well, you're biased. Absolutely I am biased. I
don't use the word allegedly unless somebody reminds me to
say it, because I'm in a world where if I'm
not one hundred percent sure, I'm not going to go forward,
(44:16):
so allegedly doesn't enter my mind most of the time,
if that makes sense to you. I think this person
did it based on the evidence that I have gathered
and what I know did occur, and how I can
put them there, and et cetera. So when there's other
people that see Richard Allen as the victim and there's
(44:38):
no way that he could have done it, we are
on such polar opposites on this thing. Again, there's no
reason to debate. I appreciate the job they're trying to
do because there's as just as impossible as what I
watched all of y'all do. But I just again appreciate
(45:00):
then what you brought. It was so unique and it
was at a level that we needed. And Anna, I
appreciate the way you came in with your unique skill
set to say, yes, I'm a journalist, but I've got
an expert that I can use and vice versa. And
I just thought y'all did a beautiful job. And again,
(45:20):
it was so nice to finally be able to meet
y'all in person.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
We were so gratified to meet you in person too,
Cheryl and your sister, and it was just it was
like a really nice bright spot for us, and you
guys were so nice. And yeah, I feel very blessed
to work with Kevin because he makes me sound smart.
Because reporters will come up and be like, what's emotion
in lemon in I'll be able to explain it, and
I only know it because Kevin's explained it to me.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
No, that's beautiful, but that's how it ought to be,
you know, like Joe Scott Morgan always says, rise and
tides lift all boats exactly. Well, I appreciate you, and
this will not be the last time y'all join us.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
We would love that. We would be honored to be back.
We're huge fans and again, it was a real treat
to get to meet you guys.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
All right, y'all, I'm going to end Zone seven the
way that I always do with a quote. Coming together
is a beginning, Staying together is a process. Working together
is success. Henry Ford, I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is
Zone seven.
Tonight, I have got a special group of folks with me. Y'all,
We're going to go behind the scenes in Delphi. What
was it really like? What were the rules? What was
the weather? Did you really have to camp out to
get a seat? While I was there, what I witnessed
(00:30):
was just something amazing. I saw a true crime community
come together and work as a team. People have actually
said to my face, this could not be true. I'm
telling you I saw it, and I will tell you
I wasn't there every single day. I was there one night,
(00:54):
two days in court, and half a day the next day.
That's all I was able to be there. But I
am telling you, in that short amount of time, as
soon as my sister and I got to the courthouse,
we were met by a friendly officer who told us
exactly where to go part so we wouldn't get toad
or get a ticket. The next thing we walk in,
(01:16):
we see where they're lining up and there's a young
reporter local named Hannah Grace. She was so helpful giving
us the rundown. Next thing, Honey, here comes Susan Hendrix.
We all adore her. We just have such a wonderful
time talking. Then Barbara McDonald and Bob Mauda come over
(01:37):
and say hello. Then I saw somebody I had never
met in person before, Kevin Greenley. So I go over,
speak very briefly, incredibly friendly. Everybody was just giving you
the rundown and telling me what was going on. And
then we were ushered upstairs and I'm standing there talking
with my sister and Susan, and this lady comes up,
(02:01):
super friendly, she goes, hey, I just wanted to say hey,
and it's an A Caine. So I'm telling you my
experience was overwhelmingly positive. And you know, then the families,
the families were I don't even know how to tell
y'all how remarkable because Liberty's grandmama brought banana bread for everybody.
(02:26):
I didn't see any fighting, I didn't see any fussing.
I didn't see anything negative. But look again, I wasn't
there every day. So I am thrilled to say, we
have Anna Caine, Kevin Greenley, and Susan Hendrix with us
tonight to tell us the real deal. Who was fighting
(02:49):
and fussing, who was ugly, who got arrested, who was
having affairs. We're gonna talk about all of it and
again and I cannot tell you how much it meant
to me to have such an outpouring of camaraderie. So
y'all please help me. Welcome Anna and Kevin and Susan
(03:13):
to Zone seven.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Thank you for having us, Cheryl, thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yes, and listen. Y'all know Susan Hendrick, She's been here
hl N podcaster, author, y'all know her, you love her.
But you know An and Kevin have not been here yet.
But let me tell you both are incredible journalists. They
have a podcast that is second to none called Murder Sheets.
(03:38):
If you don't know, go there right now. And Kevin
is an attorney, so he's got an extra level of
insight that he can give. So let's get into what
really went down in del Fi. Y'all. Susan, I'm gonna
start with you because you were the first one that
I saw that I knew. It looked to me before
I got there, the chair without five starting at about
(04:01):
four point thirty in the morning. I was like, hmmm,
I don't know that I can do that, and then
it looked like there were so many rules put down
by the judge. Yeah, really, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
And it's funny because before coming on your show. I
texted Ay and Kevin and said, I'm so excited we're
all gonna be on together, because I thought they had
been on your show before, and I would have said,
oh my gosh, this is such a treat. And Cheryl,
you're like everyone's best friend and you're so kind, and
it was such a seeing you there with your sister online.
So going back to when you said when you walked
(04:33):
in that courthouse and there were rules and who you saw.
So I walked down the stairs from a break from
court and you have to line up again for lunch.
I see Cheryl and I see Hannah, who you were
talking about. I went, Oh my gosh, hugging them and
I said, oh my gosh, you've met Hannah. Because I
was just telling my husband last night it's hard to
fully explain how close I am to all of the
(04:56):
people there. Any and Kevin are my best friends, and
going through what you've been through, it's hard to even
put into words. And he said, I get it, because
here's an example. Hannah, who is lined up now with
Cheryl and her sister Charlene. The first night, before opening statements,
I would call Anya and Kevin. They were my intel
what time do you think we should line up and
(05:16):
what time.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Should we be there?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
And we had chairs because we had been to jury
selection together in Alan Kenny. So we're there and we're
lined up. I believe it was eleven thirty maybe midnight
that night because opening statements, we weren't sure and you
never know. An Ay and Kevin, I've experienced it with
this jury selection. Wasn't so bad with lining up, so
we were there all night. I meet several people in
(05:40):
that line, including Hannah. As time picks on, it is freezing.
I ordered Cheryl so many things from Amazon, handwarmers, feet
warmerspy blankets, shaders, a scarf because I made the mistake
during a jury selection didn't have that. So I thought
I was ready and it starts getting colder and colder.
Really wasn't working that well, and I see Hannah laying
(06:03):
on the ground with a lot of blankets. She gets up,
young journalist in her twenties, and I said, where are
you going? She said, in my news van. I said,
I'm coming with you, so I followed her. We walked
behind this church in Delphi. I get in the back seat.
She blares the heat and as I'm walking it's that cold, like,
oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, I'm talking to myself.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
I get in the back seat. I lay my head down.
The heat's blaring. I was never so grateful, and I
kind of fall asleep because I hadn't slept even the
night before either, because I was traveling to Delphi from
Allen County. I didn't get much sleep the night before,
so I lay down. I'm used to the smell of
news vans. It was a comforting place, like crumbs on
my cheeks. I didn't care. I lay down, and I'm
(06:42):
kind of in and out of sleep, and I hear
a train and in my dream, I think, oh my gosh,
she's so young. She accidentally parked on a train track.
And then I hear a blaring train horn, and I
jump up and scream and she screams. Then we both
start laughing, and then we'd both fall back asleep for
an hour and they get back into line. So that's
when I come down the stairs from the court room
(07:04):
into the entryway and I see Cheryl and Hannah. It's
like I knew Hanna just as well as I've known Cheryl,
because at that particular point, I think we knew each
other like nine days, and so there was a struggle
outside of court to even get in. And Ani and
Kevin can attest to this. So once you're in and
you never really want to complain. First of all, the
judge does not care. Second of all, you don't want
(07:27):
to complain about something you've been through considering what the families.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Have to see that day.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
So it was kind of like we kept it to
ourselves and it slowly leaked out, and you brought up Becky, Patty,
it slowly leaked out to the families, and this is
We'll tell you how wonderful they are. They would come
to the line as people started to line up at
two in the morning. Tara, Libby's aunt would bring pizza
from the dog House, a place where she works at night,
bringing pizza and been out of bread, you name it.
(07:52):
So the family even cared about us waiting in line,
not to mention having to go into that court every day.
So that's my little story about just how close everyone
got because of the amount of time had struggled you
had to go to get into that courtroom. And one
last thing here that Becky did say, you know, they
care about having Livy this much to line up, I'm
(08:13):
going to make it as comfortable as I possibly can.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So no, amen, And I think everybody got that sense.
If you were there for ten minutes, you understood that.
Watching all of y'all's post, we understood y'all were going
to be battle buddies. That's all there is to it.
And you know, Anna and Kevin, I got to just
say to y'all here, you're away from home, you're tired.
(08:36):
I mean, y'all had to be exhausted. Y'all are married,
so you know you've got that little he can bug
me just because he's breathing, you know, And y'all had
to deal with that on top of making sure y'all
did get into the courtroom because y'all were given updates
every night. So tell us a little bit about juggling
(09:01):
your spot, how you were going to take notes, how
y'all were going to figure out, Hey, what do we
lead with? What do we break down? And tail folks.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Absolutely, And I just want to say though, before we
get into that, that Susan summed it up so well,
but I just want to add, like we would be
frozen solid outside of Fort Wayne to this day without
Susan Hendrix, because she's the one who basically was like,
we need to strategize, we need to get the chairs,
we need to get the blankets. So like she really
saved our lives again and again throughout this whole thing.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
But I would say in addition to that, Kevin and
I talked beforehand and we both decided, hey, like any
little weird thing that maybe would annoy us normally, we're
going to be like Elsa from Frozen and let it go.
During this process, we do not we do not have
the bandwidth to get into petty arguments and we kind
(09:54):
of need to save our energy. So we went in
with some intentionality there, and I think we both held
to that pretty well. We're not perfect, but I think
we pretty much kind of kept that throughout the process,
and that allowed us to more of help each other
kind of get through it rather than sort of become like, oh,
you're not editing this right like, you know, we kind
(10:15):
of were like, we're just just writing off a lot
of that right now. And I think that was good
in terms of one thing, people I think thought we
should have done more of, which which I understand their
point was we should have switched off more so one
of us would do one day and the other way
the other day. We kind of felt like at some point,
like part of our show is that we're both giving
(10:37):
you our perspectives, and we have slightly different perspectives, Me
being a journalist, Kevin being attorney, as having different life experiences.
So we did try to get in. We kept saying
we were going to alternate, but then we never really
ended up doing that, and I guess we just all
kind of gott in a groove where, you know, I
guess maybe a lack of a group because as I'm
sure Susan alluded to, the rules would kind of change
(11:00):
the day about what the best's practices for getting in
were and what you should do, and like the line
kept on forming earlier and things kept on getting more
and more wild. So but yeah, I think we just
we tried to be communicative with each other and then
with folks like Susan and other folks who you know,
we felt like we're there for the right reasons and
were you know, there's kind of a little community forming
(11:20):
that was really nice, and Cheryl was so nice to
meet you and your sister. I'm so glad you guys
got to be there on a day where I feel
like the day you guys came was a good day
in terms of, you know, there was nothing too wild
going on and it was a nice collegial day.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah. I thought it was for me one of the
most important days to hear being a crime scene investigator.
I just thought there was a lot of information that
you know, cleared some things up for me. You know,
as I watched y'all, Charlene and I even talked about
why aren't they, you know, giving each other a break
every other day, you know, if you had that built in.
(11:56):
But then when I watched y'all work, I thought, no,
they made the right call. You did need each other.
And then there was a time, you know, like I
even noticed Kevin was able to save a spot while
maybe you went and got something to eat and brought
it back to him, and you know, you could actually
have a break and then not worry that you were
going to lose any position because it was something to watch.
(12:20):
And I'll tell you the other thing watching you know what,
I would consider you know, real journalists. I'm not a journalist,
And so to watch y'all, I was sitting there that
very first day, and right out of the gate, I
didn't even think anything was really happening yet. And y'all
were already on page two or three of notes, and
(12:41):
I'm like, we don't even have a witness. What are
they writing like?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And Cheryl I sat right next to them the whole time.
I have to say a couple of things of relationship
calls with them. I sat next to them the whole
time outside in the freezing cold, and I'm thinking to myself,
if Joe is here, would be blaming him for something.
Maybe I don't know if they're not. And there was
this kind of flow on their show where when you said, okay,
you know we're all together, they just have a I
(13:07):
told them it was like a watching a tennis match
between them and just the way they work together. And
I have a funny story. They kept moving the goal posts.
Really as we got used to okay, we're going to
line up at this time, we got our groove day
maybe ten to eleven. Nope, moving the goalposts kept ander toes,
So you had to wait in line if you wanted
to come in during the lunch session. And somehow that
(13:30):
day I came in. I couldn't make the morning session,
so I was coming in after the break or I
don't know. My days are kind of one is going
at they're combining. But it was a day where I
got into the court room after a break. I believe
it may have been a lunch break, and Anya's right
behind me and Kevin.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
I'm like, no, they can't.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Maybe Kevin had gotten in but Anya didn't.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
So I went back out once everyone was seated, and
I thought I was doing them a favor, and I went,
excuse me, because most of the deputies were very nice,
ninety nine point nine percent and they had a to do.
And I said, excuse me, there's two empty seats in there,
and he's this massive guy, and he goes, worry about
your own seat. I'm like, okay, fine, I ran back here.
So that's just a war story.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Sure I wanted to share. And you know, I think
that was the thing when I watched all of you,
just the amount of note taken, because normally you would
be able to have your phone, you would be able to,
you know, go out do a quick hit on TV
and come back in. You'd be able to go to
(14:34):
the restroom. Even that judge had it where if you
left that courtroom you could not re enter, which was
so unusual for me. And the courtroom was so little,
but the amount of to me just old school note taken.
That was just something to behold watching y'all work with
(14:58):
a legal pad and some pens.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Yeah, it was really stressful because I'm not used to
taking notes like that. I think Anya has more of
a background in that than I do, So that's another
great reason why it was so wonderful that I was
able to work with someone as wonderful and as professional
as Anya, because I know if I missed something here
or there, I can be certain that she was going
(15:20):
to get it. And frankly, there were some days when
you know, we'd be have to get up like a
two or three in the morning to go and stand
in line, and then we'd be in court all day,
go back to where we were staying record and pretty
much be done with that like at nine or ten,
and be lucky to get just a few hours sleep.
(15:41):
So there'll be times I would be kind of almost
nodding off a bit, or having trouble staying alert in court.
So it was really reassuring to me to know that
Anya had my back.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I'm going to say this though, Cheryl, like, and that
was and that's so true of Kevin, to where he
would understand the legal stuff going on where I'd be
like thinking, like, what what does this even mean? Like
you know, speak English somebody. But but with this, it
was kind of a nightmare for me because I'm a
reporter with horrifically bad handwriting, to the point where like
(16:14):
I feel like a dozen times in court I've had
people lean over me and say, oh, that's so cool,
you know shorthand, and it's like, no.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
This is how I write.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
And I was, honestly, with Kevin's knowledge, I lean over
not in court or we would be tapped on the
shoulder and never heard from again because we were all
scared of Judge gall I joke, but uh, just the
intelligence that Kevin has and the ability. It's just I
felt like they were good friends of mine, and I
felt comfortable with them enough so to wait in line
(16:47):
and also inside the court room. And I have to
do a hit on the Menendez hearing today on Merritt
Street Media, But I want to read this text real quick, Cheryl.
If I could that, I wrote to them laughter, ask
her speech, I'm kidding, but I said, I can't believe
I didn't see you guys after the verdict. I feel
like I'm writing a yearbook post, but honestly, I don't
think I would have lasted here without you both. You
(17:09):
bring sanity and intelligence to a story that somehow attracts
the opposite at times. If this was senior year, eighth
grade was jury selection, whether you like it or not,
we're lifetime BFFs.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Love it.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Susan is like the best, and like literally you brought
such like I don't know, hope and compassion to this
whole miserable process, and like just the empathy that you
bring to families and victims' families is just I don't know.
You inspire me, and so we love Susan.
Speaker 5 (17:37):
One of it was so wonderful to get to know Susan.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, even better, I feel like we feel close. We
went we were summers. We went through some serious stuff together.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, absolutely did. And what's to me ironic about what's
happening right now? This was your life in Delpha. You
had other obligations with Nancy Grace and News Nation. You
would have to go run to another story and then
get back to Delpha. So tonight is, you know, pretty
similar to what you lived. So I appreciate you as always,
(18:06):
and I and I will talk about y'all.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Love you, Cheryl, and I am all right, honey, okay,
thanks bye.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
And you know, y'all, that's another thing like when I
was there, you know, having Susan there. She mentioned high school,
so it's almost like that ninth grader that has a
neighbor that's a senior, so when you see him in
the hall, you feel, oh, like this is going to
be okay, I know him. You know, That's kind of
how I felt with Susan, like she's going to be
able to tell us the ropes real quick. And you know,
I had a chance to, you know, go to lunch
(18:36):
with her, and I had a chance to have dinner
with Kelsey, and I had a chance to have dinner
with you know, Barbara McDonald. And there's just something that
hit me that this community that is normally very competitive,
y'all just seemed so open to help each other. I
(18:56):
mean it looked to me like y'all realized pretty quick, Hey,
if we fight each other, we're all going to fail.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Exactly and and you know anything for us, you know,
having you know, and and and Susan is such like
an emblem of that because she's incredibly generous with her
time energy. You can tell she's a person who wants
to make people aware of the facts so that they're
getting the story right. And so everyone's doing an honorable
job covering this horrible situation, if that makes sense, And
(19:26):
so sort of we take inspiration from that. And and
just you know, having covered it pre trial, we were
able to connect with different journalists covering it over time,
and so that kind of gave us some familiarity and
and our our goal has always been similar, like we
want people to get the facts so that they can
cover it. And in a situation where it seems sort
of seems like we're all like running uphill to get
(19:47):
the facts, it kind of becomes even more important to
kind of help each other up the hill if if
if we need to.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I mean, I saw everybody share a notes making sure,
hey did I hear them say this, And people were like, no, no,
it was this. They were like, oh, thank you, because
they don't want to get it wrong. But it just
didn't look cutthroat. It didn't look negative to me. And again,
I wasn't there every day, and I did hear, Oh,
there was some YouTubers that got into a fight, and
(20:15):
there was somebody else that said something that wasn't correct
and refused to correct it and all that. But I
didn't know what was true and what was rumor, which
is another reason I wanted to talk to y'all because
my experience was so positive. But you sit outside and
it's thirty below and you've got to spend the night
(20:35):
in a chair to make sure you can sit then
on a wooden bench all day and not get a break,
you might get a little irritated.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, I think it wasn't all sunshine. I think, you know,
it was definitely sort of a kumbaya period where everyone
seemed to be getting along very well, and as time
went on, needy around the time when the defense started
their case, I felt like there was a shift that
kind of grow more apparent over time where I felt
(21:06):
like some people were there who were just kind of
rabble rousers, I guess wouldn't be a nice way of
putting it, and sort of like you kind of wonder
about the intentionality there and what's going on with that,
and there was some There were some incidents, for sure,
but generally I would say given the circumstances and given
(21:26):
all of I guess, just like everything, it was surprisingly
collegial for the most part. Were there were flare ups.
Don't get me wrong, but I guess the first couple
days I was thinking, Wow, this is going to turn
into a riot tomorrow, and it didn't. It really didn't.
For the most part.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
I think the fact that the family was right there,
and the fact that the family so obviously cared about
everyone in line, including people in that line who frankly
had said some terrible things about the family. The family
still cared about those people. The family was still bringing
them food. The family wasn't making any distinctions. They weren't saying, oh,
(22:07):
if you said bad things, were not going to give
you pizza. Everybody got pizza, and I think the fact
that they did that really set an example for everyone.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, I can't overstate what I witnessed. As far as
Abby and Libby's families, I've never been so shocked in
my life. When her aunt turns to me and says,
do you need a cushion? You and charleyne need a cushion,
and I'm like, are they seriously trying to take care
of us? Like that blew my mind on a level
(22:41):
of just grace and love and we're going to look
out for everybody here. I was not expecting that I
took the cushion now, because you know that bench it
was comfortable for about four hours, but past that it
was not comfortable.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
You know.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
But that's who they are. And I think even the folks,
because there were a few people there that you know,
had something to say about the crime scene photos being
leaked or blaming Celtsey. I mean, obviously I don't subscribe
to either of that. I think that anybody that would
share the crime scene photographs, in my opinion, you are
(23:20):
sharing child porn and you should be arrested. That child
is fourteen and she is not clothed. There's no gray
area for me on that. There's not even a discussion.
I'm not going to debate you. That to me is
a hell I'm fine on by myself. And the other thing,
(23:40):
of course, is you know, when you publicly want to
blame a clear victim, that's not okay. And if you're
doing it to be sensational and you're doing it because
you want to get clicks or likes or whatever it
is that puts you in a different category for me.
And again, and that's not something that I'm going to
(24:02):
add any energy to at all.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Agreed, And yeah, we're we're at a point where we've
seen that Libby's family in particular go through so much
over this case and be subjected to so many ludicrous,
frankly accusations that I kind of feel like we need
to clean house and true crime. We need to start
basically showing people the door when they're behaving that way,
because I just don't it doesn't add anything. I'm a
(24:25):
big free speech advocate whatever like that doesn't mean that
I think we should be sort of cozying up to
and supporting any creators who are kind of flirting with that,
because it's just like it's garbage, it's it's it doesn't
doesn't serve the truth, it doesn't serve anything except basically
people's bottom lines. And also a spirit of meanness that's
just totally not okay, especially in a case like this.
(24:48):
And so the fact that some people were taking what
obviously was already a very difficult time for family members
and taking that to attack those family members based on
nothing was just it was infuriating and frankly, at times
it made me really despair because I was like, you know,
we're trying to put out the truth. I know others
are here trying to put out the truth, but it
just felt at times it was sort of futile because
(25:10):
the sort of the misinformation machines were just cranking and
cranking and cranking.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Oh yeah, it does seem that way. Yeah, you know,
a lot of times those are going to be the
loudest group for whatever reason. You know, they're going to
post and repost and make all these comments, where sometimes
the people that are on the side of true justice,
they're not that loud all the time, but they'll show up.
If you keep, you know, going left, they will force
(25:39):
you at some point to go right, I believe, but
it just wasn't happening around me.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Also, people are cowards, so Cheryl like, if they're like,
if I'm mouthing off around Cheryl, She's probably gonna be like, no,
thank you. And people don't want it. Like people will
kind of quiet down when they're away from their keyboard.
I think that's been one key thing.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, yeah, that keyboard bravery is something that just makes
me laugh. And especially these folks. You know, y'all use
your real names. You are out there. You know people
can look you up and find you. These people they're
not using their real name, they're not using their real photograph,
and they're saying things that are so bizarre just to
(26:19):
shock you. And then you know, once you take them
to task, they will go away or they'll block you,
so you know they certainly aren't going to walk up
to you in person.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yes, that is that's definitely been our experience that point.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I would sometimes I wish they would walk up to
me in person when there's a camera rolling. That would
be fantastic. You want to you want to step to
somebody and let's have a conversation, especially about Kelsey. Let's
freaking do it.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I would pay to see guy.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Look at the backup I have. I have the two
of you, I've got Susan, I've got Barbara, I've got
all these people that they know the truth. They've been there,
they've walked it. They have to under stand it. So
even if you say, well let's look again at Ron Logan,
or let's look again, you know at Keegan Klein, fine,
I can respect that, yes, if you want to look
(27:10):
at them, because they were probably not perfect people. I
am with you one hundred percent, but you cannot tell
me the facts that y'all sat through day after day
after day. You're gonna ignore. One example that I did
see personally was the day that the expert for the
(27:35):
state spoke about the striations and the firearm and the
unspent cartridge matching. I thought she was unwavering. I thought
she addressed that jury beautifully, she answered questions beautifully, She
didn't need to refer to her notes. She was very positive.
She was just laser focused on she believed she was correct.
(28:02):
That resonated with me. Well that night, I kept seeing
a lot of these people. All they were reporting was
an alternate was excused. I'm like, wait a minute, you're
not going to talk about how well this witness did.
You're just gonna make it seem like somebody got dismissed for,
you know, some negative reason, which wasn't true either. So
(28:25):
I did see that happen.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Cheryl. I'm so glad you said that, because at times
it felt like we were losing our minds because we'd
be seeing the same thing, and we'd be like, why
is no one talking about that? And then we'll like, well,
maybe we're over emphasizing it. But you saw it too,
Like there were things like that where it was just
like I just think sometimes people don't understand what they're
seeing and then it like the other meriative kind of
(28:49):
takes over. But I agree with you. I thought Melissa
Oberg was an excellent.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, she whooped there behind. I even turned to my
sister at one point and said, he needs to stop
asking her questions because and I want to ask Kevin this. Kevin,
there was a part where she was testifying and the
defense attorney he jumps up and says objection, and the
(29:15):
judgment she's your witness right now.
Speaker 6 (29:19):
Like you got to let her finish, and he did
not want her to finish because he realized I've asked
her the wrong thing, Like she's even deeper now correct
in what she did.
Speaker 5 (29:31):
Yeah, that sort of thing was striking, and to be honest,
it happened more than once where the defense team would
make basic errors that the judge would call them on,
like objecting to a witness, answering a question you asked,
or trying to keep someone in an improper way. It
(29:54):
was really genuinely shocking because I really expected to see
a higher quality of legal work from these people.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, I was shot by that. And you know some
of the things, if you've been around the courthouse enough,
I mean, this is my fortieth year. I mean so
I've seen plenty of trials, some really good, some really bad.
But you know, some of the stuff just kind of
seems like a stunt. And I don't think it was
lost on this jury. When you have Richard Allen slumping
(30:27):
down in his chair and they put the largest events
attorney next to him so he looks even more weak
and pitiful, they didn't buy it.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yes, I think we saw that too. There seemed to
be a bit of a fatigue around the Allan is,
you know, an innocent victim of all this narrative, and
they tried to get to that by showing videos of
him having a hard time in prison. They tried to
get to that by some of the theatrics that you're
talking about, and even by having people testify that he
was a fragile egg who really couldn't get on in life.
(30:58):
And I think what the jury basically said, what the
verdict is Okay, but does that mean he couldn't have
killed two kids when the evidence is what it is
against him. And so we saw the logic win over
some of the emotion.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I think, well, I'll tell you the thing that shot
the daylight that of me. I had never seen a
jury be able to ask questions, And as I sat there,
I'm like, they're pretty sophisticated. Like they weren't asking what
does DNA stand forward they knew and as I watched
those questions come through, it was real clear to me
(31:33):
what side they were on.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I think we had a similar time. I think there
were a couple of times where I was like, well,
I think they're asking tough questions of the prosecution where
they're not just buying everything. They're saying they want follow up,
they want reassurance. But generally they seem to be focusing
more on the actual crime rather than all of the
noise around us.
Speaker 5 (31:53):
Yeah, the defense seemed to not want to actually talk
about the crime. The defense wanted to talk about everything else,
to try to like wave shiny keys in front of
the jury and say, oh, isn't it awful that Richard
Allen was treated allegedly badly after he was arrested, or
here's what a witness who was at the bridge an
(32:15):
hour after the crime, what they saw, and none of
this stuff is relevant. And I think the jury picked
up on that, and the jurors questions really showed we
want to talk about the crime. And I think it's
wonderful that Indiana does allow jurors to ask questions. And
I wanted to give the prosecution kudos because there was
(32:37):
one point where a juror asked a question and they
didn't have an answer for it, and so they went
and did subsequent investigation and then kind of answered the
jurors question like a day or two later.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Yeah, you see the kind of both sides trying to
play with what they're getting asked. At one point on
Bald when one of the defense attorneys actually adopted sort
of one juror would always start her questions if you know,
and then and continue with your question, he started saying that.
So you saw both sides sort of try to cater
to the jurors a little bit by incorporating some of that,
(33:08):
which I thought.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Was kind of neat.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I'm so glad you mentioned that because our friends, the
prosecutors Bretton Alice. I know when we were talking about
jury questions, I think they had the idea that like
jurors were maybe jumping up from their seats and asking,
and like, we had this wild system in Indiana, and
it's a situation where they can, you know, as you saw,
they can write down the question that's given to a
judge and the parties and then they can all determine
(33:32):
if it's an appropriate question. So there are some checks
and balances to ensure that nothing inappropriate gets to ask.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
And you know, it was funny because I love bretton Alice.
I adore everything about them, and when I first heard it,
that's kind of what I had in my head, and
I was not about it. I thought, this is going
to be chaos, somebody crazy, He's going to jump up
and you know what I mean, ask crazy our balance
type questions and throw everything off. It was not like
(34:01):
that at all. And after watching it, I'm like, why
we doing this everywhere?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I think it encourages the jurors to pay attention because
I think when you're like listen, I when I'm hearing
a lecture on something and I have no idea what's
going on, and I have no ability to follow it.
I think I'm going to be much more likely to
zone out at some point, whereas if I can say, Okay,
well tell me about this and then someone can come
back to me, then I'm like, okay, now I'm learning.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
And also for joorneys on both sides, it's a really
useful tool because if the jurors are asking questions about
this point for that point, it tells you what is
not clear about your case. It's telling you what you
can do to sharpen your case and make your arguments
clearer to the jury. It's really quite useful.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Kevin, I thought that same thing, And you know, just
like you were saying on one thing that I thought
is you've got somebody that doesn't have to sit there
for a whole week to get an answer something. They
can get it answered and cleared up right now, so
that as they're kind of thinking through the night, and
then once they get to deliberation, I think it's going
(35:10):
to be a lot faster because they're not having to
go back and ask these nine questions they've had all week.
All right, let me ask you both this, what was
the best part, like something you really miss about the
experience and what is something you don't ever want to
do again.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
The thing I miss is hanging out with Susan every day,
and also not just Susan, but like and she'll tell
you this too. There's a little community, right We mentioned
it at the top. There are people I felt like
I knew of but I got to know even better,
knew people that I met that I really respected. We
hung out a lot with Lauren from Hidden True Crime.
Her team is amazing. I love the work they did,
(35:50):
and they just came into it with just such open
minds and did an amazing job covering it. And so
there's experiences like that. There's YouTubers that we knew for
years and we got to spend more time with them.
So all of that, the social angle of it could
be very nice. When there were nice people around, and
it was it was certainly like we're all in this
(36:11):
together to a certain degree. And I will say I
missed Delfi I I kind of like we'd spend a
lot of time there, but spending so much time there
it really made me love the city even more. It
is a place with a lot of wonderful people. I
(36:31):
remember when we were waiting for the verdict We'd wander
around a lot and people would just pop out of
stores and say hi and give us a cookie, and
it was like, wow, this is so nice, Like I mean,
it was really sweet and and just that kind of
speaks to what Delphi is like. It's just generous, nice
normal people and a nice, normal town.
Speaker 7 (36:49):
And it a horrible thing happened there, but seeing that,
seeing Libby's family sort of feed the public, seeing all
of that was lovely.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Kevin, do you want to do your favorite part? And
then we can get really negative.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
My favorite.
Speaker 5 (37:07):
My favorite party is very similar to Anya's. The sense
of community was something really remarkable, and the sense of
everybody being available and trying to help each other. I'm
someone we've talked about Amazon, especially Susan was talking about Amazon.
We have an Alexa and so sometimes during the day,
you know, you say, oh, Alexa, what's the temperature? Or Alexa,
(37:28):
what's this or what's that? And during this trial you
had like human versions of Alexa, because if, oh, when
was this particular motion filed? You could just say the
question out loud and someone standing nearby would be able
to give you the answer. And it was just having
the resource that is all of these people's collective knowledge
(37:48):
about this case was really one.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I can't agree more, and I will speak for Susan
only because she and I talked about this, and one
thing she said to me was, to her, it was
almost like camp that all these strangers kind of came together.
Maybe some people you knew from school, but for the
most part you didn't know everybody, and you just become
fast friends because you're in this thing together. And that's
(38:12):
the way she, you know, equated it that it was
like summer camp.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Absolutely, Kevin, what's your negative things? You can start off
and then I'll get into mind and Kevin.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Before you say anything, keep in mind, she said, let's
get real negative. It's going to be.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
It's going to be going to be so it's going
to drag the whole mood of.
Speaker 5 (38:30):
This whole thingccount, Well, I mean, I'm basic. I like
to eat, I like to have my lunch, I like
to have my breakfast. And if you left the court
for lunch, you weren't going to get back in for
the afternoon session. And also, if you eat or drink
too much and you have to use the restroom later,
(38:51):
you're not gonna be able to get back in so
I really missed eating, I missed doing things other than
work and sleeping. That's basically all we did. I miss
having a life outside of work.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I think that was bad for me. I'd say my
two worst things are tied. Maybe one edge is the
other act slightly. I think a lot of people who
were there felt the same way as I did. I
don't think I was alone in this, but the pressure
to get accurate information out was really immense because I
(39:31):
felt that there was a lot of misinformation coming out.
Some of that was bad actors, and then in other
cases it was actually just accidental where people wires would
get crossed, and you know, having been there, Cheryl, you
can see how that happens. It doesn't like somebody can say, oh,
they said that, and then like you know, they tell
a colleague and then that's the news story. And it's like,
(39:52):
no one is a bad journalist in that situation. No
one is a bad person. It's just a mistake. But
you know, kind of seeing how that can happen, it
really was quite stressful because we did not want to
be responsible for that. And then the thing that was
worse for me was, I guess seeing what happened to
(40:14):
those girls. I wish I could unsee some of the
images and evidence that.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
We all were shown. And I think that you know,
that's something that's going to stay with you. We have
a term in criminal justice that we use. You can't
unring a bell, and that's true. That bell has rung
for you, Anna, and that's it. You aren't going to
(40:41):
be able to forget it. It's going to be a
part of you. I also believe that that's the kind
of thing that will make you a better journalist. I'm
one of those people when the powers that be say, oh,
you can't show these particular images because it'll inflame the jury,
I believe they should be inflamed. Murder is ugly, it
(41:02):
is horrible, It is horrific. You cannot get it unless
you're shown the truth. And I say, show it, just
like the videos of Richard Allen. Show them. It's not
supposed to be pleasant. He ain't at club med, he's
in prison. It's supposed to be a deterrent. Of course,
(41:22):
he's not doing great there. Nobody would be doing great there.
That's why you ain't supposed to go there. But to me,
by you even saying, hey, I'm going to go here
and I'm going to subject myself to this knowing that
it's going to affect me. I even have more respect
(41:42):
for you.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
And I agree with you. I think I think we
have to bear witness to this. It's it's as you said,
it's it's not nice, it's not pretty, it's not it's
it's awful. It's the worst thing you can imagine. And
that's what the photos show. And I think, in my opinion,
and I don't this is speculation. This isn't based on anything,
because obviously no one's heard from the jury aside from
(42:06):
their verdict. But I imagine that for the jury, those photos
may have underscored who the real victims in this case were,
and that's Abby and Libby, and what they went through
was horrifying. Their last moments were horrifying, and kind of
all everything else sort of was a distraction.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
And Kevin, what do you think about inflaming the jury?
Do you think that I'm right or that most judges
are right?
Speaker 5 (42:33):
I think you're right. I don't think you can ask
a juror to weigh in with a judgment about a
crime if they don't have the tools to understand what
exactly that crime is. They need to see it, they
need to understand what happened, otherwise their decision is going
to be uninformed. And it is important. It's not like
(42:56):
on television. It's awful, it's a thing to see, but
we do need to look and understand that this is
what's happening to some people in this country.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Well stated. And I will say just this last thing.
When you were talking Anna about you don't want to
have wrong information, you don't want to put something out
that it's not correct. I had such a laughing attack
when they were talking about you know what. Richard Allen
said that he saw half the people online were saying
(43:29):
white van, the other half were saying white man. I thought,
there you go. You hear what you hear, and you
want to put it out so quick that sometimes you know,
may not be perfect. But y'all had a job that
was unbelievable. Y'all all, and I mean every one of you,
(43:54):
even the people that I don't agree with, And there
was some people there that we are never going to
see this the same way. And I will openly tell you.
People say, well, you're biased. Absolutely I am biased. I
don't use the word allegedly unless somebody reminds me to
say it, because I'm in a world where if I'm
not one hundred percent sure, I'm not going to go forward,
(44:16):
so allegedly doesn't enter my mind most of the time,
if that makes sense to you. I think this person
did it based on the evidence that I have gathered
and what I know did occur, and how I can
put them there, and et cetera. So when there's other
people that see Richard Allen as the victim and there's
(44:38):
no way that he could have done it, we are
on such polar opposites on this thing. Again, there's no
reason to debate. I appreciate the job they're trying to
do because there's as just as impossible as what I
watched all of y'all do. But I just again appreciate
(45:00):
then what you brought. It was so unique and it
was at a level that we needed. And Anna, I
appreciate the way you came in with your unique skill
set to say, yes, I'm a journalist, but I've got
an expert that I can use and vice versa. And
I just thought y'all did a beautiful job. And again,
(45:20):
it was so nice to finally be able to meet
y'all in person.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
We were so gratified to meet you in person too,
Cheryl and your sister, and it was just it was
like a really nice bright spot for us, and you
guys were so nice. And yeah, I feel very blessed
to work with Kevin because he makes me sound smart.
Because reporters will come up and be like, what's emotion
in lemon in I'll be able to explain it, and
I only know it because Kevin's explained it to me.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
No, that's beautiful, but that's how it ought to be,
you know, like Joe Scott Morgan always says, rise and
tides lift all boats exactly. Well, I appreciate you, and
this will not be the last time y'all join us.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
We would love that. We would be honored to be back.
We're huge fans and again, it was a real treat
to get to meet you guys.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
All right, y'all, I'm going to end Zone seven the
way that I always do with a quote. Coming together
is a beginning, Staying together is a process. Working together
is success. Henry Ford, I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is
Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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