September 12, 2025 • 28 mins
In the wake of Charlie Kirk’s assassination, Sheryl McCollum and Joshua Schiffer use this week’s Crime Roundup to reflect on political violence, the First Amendment, and what it means to live in a divided country. The explore the power and limits of the First Amendment, the risks faced by judges and public figures, and how moments of unity like those following 9/11 have become harder to find. Sheryl also shares behind-the-scenes highlights from CrimeCon 2025, including a drink with Ice-T and a packed Zone 7 session where Joshua’s glasses stole the show.
Highlights:
- (0:00) Welcome to Crime Roundup with Sheryl McCollum and Joshua Schiffer
- (0:45) Charlie Kirk's assassination and what it says about political violence
- (2:45) Common ground, debate, and how to talk across divides
- (5:00) What makes the First Amendment uniquely American
- (9:00 Political threats, judicial safety, and national trauma
- (17:45) Remembering 9/11 and a moment of unity
- (20:00) CrimeCon recap: Ice-T, Marcia Clark, and unforgettable moments
- (22:30) Joshua’s surprise gift for Zone 7 fans
- (26:30) Final thoughts on free speech, differences, and dignity
About the Hosts
Joshua Schiffer is a veteran trial attorney and one of the Southeast’s most respected legal voices. He is a founding partner at ChancoSchiffer P.C., where he has litigated high-stakes criminal, civil rights, and personal injury cases for over two decades. Known for his bold courtroom presence and ability to clearly explain complex legal issues, Schiffer is a frequent media contributor and a fearless advocate for accountability.
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award-winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, a forensic and crime scene expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. She is the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a national collaboration that advances techniques for solving cold cases and assists families and law enforcement with unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnappings.
🎧 Want more from Sheryl?
Catch her every week on the Zone 7 podcast, where she hosts the main series on Wednesdays, Pathology with Dr. Priya on Mondays, and Crime Roundup each Friday alongside Joshua Schiffer.
📢 Stay Connected
Subscribe using your favorite podcast platform and leave a review to support the show. Have a case or topic you’d like Sheryl and Joshua to cover?
Email coldcase2004@gmail.com
Follow the Hosts:
- Sheryl on X: @ColdCaseTips
- Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
- Joshua on X and Instagram: @lawyerschiff
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Y'all. This is not going to be a crime round
up you're expecting, But I think it's the crime roundup
you need. I'm Cheryl McCollum and I am joined as
always with Joshua Schiffer.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hey, Joshua, Hey, honey, it is It's been quite the
unexpected day.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
It's an unexpected day, and I want to tell everybody
this is Wednesday. We're recording early because I'm going to
be traveling and josh is going to be in court,
so we're out of pocket Friday.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
But today we had an assassination.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
And I'm going to tell you real quick, this is
not going to be a political show.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
This is not going to be a show where you
were going to.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Feel like you've got to choose one side of the
the Josh and I are on the same side.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
There's lots of places if you want a doom scroll
and doom listen. The world is filled with that. That's
actually part of the discussion of this is how in
this era of instant mass communication, intimate immediate mass communication,
where breaking news happens live to everyone at the same time,
(01:29):
how that affects us as individuals and the community. Because
this assassination today, and I will call it an assassination
until I'm told otherwise. I think it was clearly a
political murder, even though we don't know the anything really
about the alleged shooter, at least not right now, and
(01:51):
that may change by the time you listen to this.
But how are communities already reacting. You can find all
the doom and gloom and awful you want, but I
don't think that honors kind of the person that Charlie
Kirk was. And that's one of the unifying parts about
(02:12):
a tragedy of this is notice how the by part
is an appreciation for Charlie Kirk as someone who loved
discourse and the discussion is leading how his memory is
going to be honored because he really did come in
as an outsider, and he did approach and he was
(02:33):
interested in engagement at a really high level at showing
why humanity is humanity.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
And you know, I'm a big person on common ground.
I don't think there is anybody that I could sit
down with for an hour and not find something common.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
I just don't believe that.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So it doesn't matter what all your own political party,
what religion, what sexual orientation, It doesn't matter, there's something
we can find.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And you really did see that with a lot of
his his rhetoric style. And I don't mean rhetoric as
a bad way, it's it's the manner in which he
chose to speak and argue because there was a lot
of that common ground and commonality. Because it is easier
to connect once you've got some bridges, the two sides
(03:29):
in any dispute being miles apart with nothing in connect.
That's why you see real growth through the struggle process,
whether it be litigation, criminal or civil, or when you
get into things like mediation and I'll turn a dispute
resolution where the process of bringing together disparate groups, if
(03:49):
you can build that bridge, and that's how you start
flooding the other side with with some of your perspective.
And if you can you can give them that perspective,
that's how you change. You ain't never going to argue
somebody into change in their mind.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Never, that's never gonna work.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Nobody has ever said, you know what, they started yelling
at screaming at me, and I thought, you know what,
they're making sense.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
One of the co founders of the trial Ers College,
John Bob Rose, who was a Wyoming Supreme Court justice
who passed along before I ever was associated with college.
One of his sayings was, if you're arguing, you're losing,
And it's very similar to the if you're explaining your losing,
because you're never going to actually change a perspective. You're
(04:37):
never actually going to affect someone in a way they
go back and contemplate a new perspective. If they feel
lectured or if they feel instructed, that's against really the
common nature. It's one of the big issues with how
education works because you know, we spend a lot of
time lecturing kids and we've changed that now we engage
(04:59):
kids is experience in moving and showing.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
That's how you change people.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
We got some amendments, but the first one. The first
one is pretty simple. Any religion, you can speak how
you want, you can start a newspaper, you can gather
with like minded people. You can even make a petition
(05:25):
to say, hey, government, I want you to do something different.
And so to a whole bunch of people near me
that agree. We made it the first one for a reason,
and to me, I mean, you and I talked off air,
but it's kind of our thing.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It's a fundamental, core, central value to what it means
to be American. I was being interviewed by the British
press this afternoon involving Epstein, and then we got into
a bunch of other interesting topics, including speech and that
Banksy art that came out. And remember, the United States
(06:04):
is very unique in its unfettered freedoms where there's not
an automatically built in restriction. Now are there restrictions. Yes,
we have developed through our court system, legitimate, meaningful restrictions
on things like the freedom of speech. Because there are
certain forms of speech that are per se illegal, harmful, wrongful,
(06:28):
and those can be regulated. Things like commercial speech can
be regulated. But your individual speech that that's really hard
for anybody to restrict. And that's part of what makes
this American. Other countries view that as odd. Other countries
do not see that as a core fundamental value. And
(06:49):
that reflects on the freedom that is so central to
the American way of life, in the American Promise. It's
how we were able to conquer and control a giant,
wild continent and the representative democracy that we have, even
when it's messy, I still think it's the best damn
system anybody else's ever invented. I dare you to govern
(07:09):
a bunch of Americans any better?
Speaker 4 (07:12):
But you're right. The first Amendment.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
It's gonna come in on this, and any political violence
is abhorrent because of its natural effect in chilling free
speech and chilling political discourse. And so it's not a
censorship of you are prohibited from saying. It is the
(07:37):
overarching existential fear that exists in all Americans now and
has been inflicted on all of us, knowing that it's
that much more easy and common for our thought leaders
and our influential people to be injured, that injury is
transferred to us in many ways. So this was an
(07:58):
assassination on kind of all, all of our ability and
willingness to speak, because this wasn't even somebody that was
known for particularly aggressively flambuoyant speech. Certainly, there was divisive
and confrontational and tough stuff, high emotion stuff, important stuff
(08:19):
that he, more than so many others, attempted to keep
as rational and reasonable and common sense as possible. And
he approached from an outside perspective as someone who started
an organization as a eighteen year old, and it reflected
a very young generation in a way where he actively
(08:41):
courted all sides of the spectrum to come to his
pathway of belief, which different than mine. I'll just tell
you his lifestyle and my lifestyle have some pretty substantial differences.
But his conviction was beyond reproach. His reputation in a
slimy world was pretty impeccable. And this was a loss
(09:07):
for everybody.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It is a loss, and I'll tell you again going
back to common ground. He's a father, he's an American,
he loved this country, There's no doubt about it.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And to me, when you realize that there.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Has been an assassination based on someone's speech, based on
their belief, based on them being in public gathering, wanting
somebody to debate them, wanting to make sure, hey you're
saying this, but let me give you this and maybe
(09:45):
we can come together, maybe you can come to my side.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
A very open and welcoming I'm going to approach you
on the street and the level you know, going back
to a bunch of classical values of debate and discourse,
which I feel is very approachable no matter where you
are on the spectrum, no matter what your background is.
It was a format that was very accessible and that's
(10:11):
I believe why the cynical youth were so attracted to it.
And let's be frank, he had a lot of appeal
to younger people who felt that they were being ignored
because of the school they went. Many people credit him
with a downright revolution of centrist and right leaning groups
in campuses coast to coast. And you know, you may
(10:33):
love it or hate it, but it's good to see
young people get involved with politics. I don't care what
the position is. Get up there and shake your fist
and get pissed off and get it out of your
system because that's going to help you for the rest
of your life being politically engaged. It's going to give
you a more meaningful life to understand.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
That's the place to do it. Yeah right, I mean, come.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
On, I'm going to tell you I still agree with
all the dumb things I thought when I was twenty.
Find me someone at who's like, man, twenty year old
me totally had it together, one hundred percent, right on target,
no mistakes. It was just it was perfect at twenty now,
perfect place. Man, it killed me right now, You've got
(11:14):
to be But that's exactly what where that energy needs
to go is and have that passion manifest.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
But if I had the two of you in a room,
you see the common ground in the two of you,
your fathers, you're both debate people.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Oh, I'm sure we would have plenty of things to
agree on, even though there would be I think really
significant disagreements with what's necessarily important and when it comes
to policy and how we should be leading certain things.
But that's what makes our country so great is that
it really is based on this fantasy that was crafted
(11:54):
by a bunch of old white property owning men that
probably weren't going to let you, yes, you listener in
the room because at least half of you or female,
and probably a lot of you don't own property, or
a minority or anybody that's not a rich white male.
They were based all this on this very aspirational traditional
values that comes out of the Western Romantic tradition Greeks, Romans.
(12:18):
If you read about masonry, which is a very important
social issue at the time of our founding, that's really
how our nation was founded on these dreams and ideas.
But the men were very flawed and recognized flawed men
and women would come in the future and it's a
(12:40):
miracle that we have lasted and done so well for
so long. But we've still got some work to do
with this recent political violence. And it's not just limited
to this horrible assassination. We have had an attempted assassination
against President Trump. We've probably had many that we don't
even know about because they don't really talk about that stuff.
(13:03):
We have had a tax on you know, Greg Governor Whittmer.
We have had just kidnappings. We have had all kinds
of threats against judges, which is a particularly challenging issue
because who else are we trying to ask to be
fair to people that are hard to be fair to.
We've got to make sure judges are secure if we're
(13:26):
going to actually have independent judiciaries. But this uptick in
political violence really is an inflection moment, and we've got
to decide where we're going to go.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
And I hope that this.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Is in some way going to spur a national discussion
that we've begged for across the spectrum that impacts the
true crime universe, because so much of what we deal
with at some point involves the ease of access of
firearms or deals with the ease of let me not
(14:01):
say excitability, the facility or the hmm, let's get a
good five dollars work. How easy it is to piss
people off?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
There it is we've lost sure.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
I love the fact I can Facebook and Twitter with
all my friends all over the world. I went to
a little teeny hippie college in New England and I
got friends that live all over Africa and Southeast Asia.
And the Internet makes that amazing. Nothing my parents could
have done like that. The same time, all this digital
is so impersonal, and I worry about the value of
human life with all of this digital connection and inability
(14:40):
to regulate reality.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
You know, you mentioned a conversation that needs to happen.
And I don't know if you know this, but my
mother was a genius. And I'm not just saying that.
She graduated from college at seventeen with a degree in
economy from Mercy University. And the only reason she was
seventeen is because my grandfather made her weight until she
(15:08):
was older. Okay, so when I say she's a genius, seriously,
But one thing she would always talk about the Constitution
that she thought was the most brilliant part of the
whole thing was the preamble, so like, even before you
get to the meat of it, they're going to go
ahead and set the stage for you.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
And she thought that was such a brilliant move.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
And one of her favorite things in that whole preamble
was to ensure domestic tranquility because to her, she felt
like putting that burden on the government to keep the
peace within this country is paramount. And when you have
(15:51):
leaders that are in any way dividing people, that has
got to stop. We can't have a conversation if you're
just making fun or calling names or being argumentative. To
be argumentative, that is never going to solve what we
are clearly facing.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
We've got to build that common ground because it is
and we we as citizens need to hold our government
responsible not just.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
To protect our borders, which is really important.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But but to really ensure that tranquility and work for
the peace and dignity of the people of your community.
That that's if you ever read an indictment, people always says,
who's the victim. Who's the victim? Is it that person
that got shot? Well, you know they're a victim, But really,
if you read an indictment, the victim is the peace
(16:47):
and dignity of that governmental subdivision.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It's the state versus so and so, not the victim
versus them.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You're right, and the crime, the crime is a violation
of the peace and dignity in my case, in the
State of Georgia, of the State of Georgia, because the
State of Georgia has peace and dignity, and it's a
governmental interest to preserve it, to protect it, to promote it.
(17:16):
And I hope that we start focusing more on promoting
the peace, dignity, the tranquility of our federal constitution, because
we deserve as one of the most rich and successful
and advanced nations ever. If you know, people love to
concentrate on all the bad stuff that we do, and
(17:37):
we suck at this, and now look at the good
stuff that we do. Let's lean into that and make
those things even better and lead the world. We cannot
lead in all things, but the things we can't, let's
let's go out there and kick serious.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
But I'm gonna tell you something, Tomorrow's nine to eleven.
You don't have to look at another event in where
people came together quicker, faster, better, more productive. You're talking
about a handful of people that murdered three thousand. But
(18:14):
do you know in New York City alone, a million
people stood in line to give blood. A million And
that's just one example in that city. How many people
went there, how many people offered to help, I know,
home depot, they turned every truck they had around and said,
(18:34):
send everything to New York. Hammers, gloves, chainsaws, everybody did that. Everybody.
They brought dogs, they brought food. And it wasn't just America.
Look what happened in Gander. Look what happened all over
the world. The queen is playing God bless America.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
It was something that.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
You cannot explain it unless you literally and everybody can
tell you the almost minute by minute story.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Of that day. You know I it is. It is
one of those where it's it's etched in there.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
There is absolutely no way I can walk you through
watching the news shaving class.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
What I was doing, who I was going.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
And it's one of those things that illustrates the binds
that tie us together and and and those those commonalities that.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I worry we lose.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And and that's a change in the American fabric where
we've lost some of that homogeneity that was a strength,
and we've replaced it with some diversity and some difference,
which is also a strength. But it's a very different strength,
and it's a different cloth than what we are used to,
and that adjustment is is bumpy.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Uh it is.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
It is not the same cloth, and it's still wonderful,
but the difference is tough. And Cheryl, I know where
I'm looking at the lights. I know we're running out
of time.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
I got to.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Ask it because I didn't make it this year.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
I have swore, I.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Have sworn on all of my appropriate pinkies and toes
and et ceteras that next year I will be there.
Tell us about crime Con twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I'm gonna tell you something, Baby, Nancy, Grace, John and
Callahan Walsh, Nicole and Jim and Tara and Joe Batito,
Gabby Potito's four parents, Colby Ryme, Lori Vaalo's son, Josh, Michaelwitz,
Angeline Hartman, Nicole and Jimmy and Maria Kine, Paul Hols
(20:40):
ed newcomer Marcia Clark. I've never met her before, finally
got to meet her.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
How hard Nancy and the team at crime Con works.
The choreography is off the chain. When you're thinking about
this many people, with this many things going on.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
It is a whirlwind.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I tell people it's like a wedding. You plan for
a year and it is over before you know it,
and you remember not all of it, you know. But
there are moments that are so iconic, Like there was
one part I'm standing there, iced tea is in the room.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
So cool, Marcia Clark, everybody.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Iced Tea would have been my number one.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
And let me tell you, he was awesome.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
He was funny. Oh yeah, you would not have been disappointed.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
That would have been the total starstruck boy, like just complete,
that's my guy.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah yeah. And there was so many moments you sit
there and you're like, did I just have drinks with
iced tea?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
And Josh Minkow It's like what world am I in? Right?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And my sister Charlene and I were laughing because you
remember the Astronauts when they talked about coming home from
the moon. It's like, Okay, I mean it's gonna top that.
I mean, I walked to the moon yesterday. And now
I'm at Public's I mean so here, I'm at crime
(22:11):
cont and people are like, oh, can I take a
picture with you?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And I'm like, of.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Course, oh, can you, you know, sign this for me?
And you're just, you know, so great. And we love
Zone seven and we love Josh.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
It's weird.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I just love our little world.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Though, and they love you. And let me tell what happened.
I got to tell this to people because Josh ain't
gonna tell it.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
I'm gonna tell it. We're talking.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I'm there, and he's like, man, I've got this trial
and I've got a client this in jail. I've got
to go see them. I can't ditch them. I just
can't make it to crime cont He texted me and
he said, Hey, I'm overnighting you something at the hotel.
And I thought, that's super cool. I've never had that
happen in my whole life. And I thought, I'm gonna
(22:57):
look so freaking important when I get a package that's
been over to me Amazon.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
It's unreal.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So this fabulous hotel has a fed X in the basement.
So Walt said, you go on because I had a
session at nine o'clock. It opened right at nine, but
you have to be in the green room at eight thirty.
So there I am, and I'm with all the folks
from Cold Justice and just I mean, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
It's all these people that we listen. This is this
is not a podcast, like this is what I do.
This is Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So you in you're like, you know, hey, Kelly Zigler, good,
if you need something, call me. So anyway, just having
a great time, I mean, completely starstruck the whole time.
Well then I get this box and in the box
is about six boxes, and I'm like, what has Josh done? Y'all?
I opened that first box because I had no idea
(23:52):
what it was. They are replicas of his glasses, the
round glasses. There red, they're purple, they're pink, they're black.
I just shut the box real quick because I was like,
oh my gosh, I know exactly what I'm gonna do.
So Barbara Butcher and I had the very last session
(24:12):
of Crime Con. So these are the hardcore folks. They
didn't get a plane early. They're not leaving early. That room, Josh,
there had to be five hundred people in that room.
Barbara and I at the end we said, everybody, come forward.
Josh has sent y'all a gift.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Honey.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
They stolen the stage. We had the six boxes lined out.
We had volunteers that came up to open to pass
them all out.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
And then you've seen the video that I saw.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I was just gonna say, yeah, you guys have got
to see it. And meanwhile, there's a really huge case
happening in Georgia right now called cop City, which is
that that was this week.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
There's a death.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Penalty case happening this week. There's been a lot going on,
and so I see this video and my heart just
just melted, Like Cheryl, that was so so sweet.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
They were so excited, and I just not only appreciate
you being a part of my Zone seven, but just
being so generous to our zone sound.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
I love it. It is a profound It is on my calendar.
I just like, can't wait, can't wait. This is one
of those parts of my week that I just look
forward to. I love our conversations. I love what this
podcast and discussion represents and the people that listen to it,
because they're not out there spreading the doom and gloom.
They're looking for something that shows our commonality together because
(25:43):
we're good people and we want what's best, and good people,
we have so much more in common than we have
different We just need to focus on that and we
can we can talk through the problems the violence and
is violence and Aaron in the creation of humanity. Man,
that's a tough question. They've been working on that one
a long long time. There's a couple of good books
(26:06):
about it. The good book has a good bit about
the origins of original sin. There's a touch there. Really,
it's up to us to look up forward, to lead,
to be good people, and to move the conversation forward
in a good way. And that's one of the reasons
I just love being here.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
And I just want to end this particular crime round
up by saying, when it comes to Charlie Kirk, I
will pray for his children and I will defend forever
his right to say whatever he wanted to say in
the venue he chose to say it. And the same
goes for you.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
When we start missing that point that what are we
fighting for?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I want to say one more thing, Josh, because you
just reminded me of something. You and I a lot
of times we're on opposite sides of things just because
of the profession we chose. You and I have laughed
often that I don't use the word allegedly, you sometimes
have to teach.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
We're supposed to always crawl up and threaten to die on.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I mean, whatever you know, But here's what I know
for sure, and I want everybody to hear this. If
I disagree with you, this is something I practice.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
And I'll just use pizza because it's easy.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
If I say Pepperoni's the greatest pizza ever and you
say no, it's sausage and meatball pizza, Okay, we disagree.
I'm never gonna think you're correct.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
But here's what I do know.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
You lead with your heart, and if you're telling me
that that sausage and meatball pizza is the greatest, I
might have to try it. It may not change my mind,
but I know you are not deliberately trying to steer
me wrong. I know that you believe in your heart
it's the best, and other people agree with you, So
(28:09):
those fifty thousand people can't be wrong.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
And so we're just gonna Hey, we're gonna.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Order two pizzas. That's all there is to it, and
we're still gonna enjoy the margaritas together.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
You can agree to disagree for goodness sake, Come on,
all the scene exactly.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
It'd be boring. That's the spicy WAF.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
There, spicy life, baby, But I love you too, and
I appreciate you and y'all. As Joshua always says, facing
up forward, we're happy.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
It's gonna be all right.
Y'all. This is not going to be a crime round
up you're expecting, But I think it's the crime roundup
you need. I'm Cheryl McCollum and I am joined as
always with Joshua Schiffer.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hey, Joshua, Hey, honey, it is It's been quite the
unexpected day.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
It's an unexpected day, and I want to tell everybody
this is Wednesday. We're recording early because I'm going to
be traveling and josh is going to be in court,
so we're out of pocket Friday.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
But today we had an assassination.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
And I'm going to tell you real quick, this is
not going to be a political show.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
This is not going to be a show where you
were going to.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Feel like you've got to choose one side of the
the Josh and I are on the same side.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
There's lots of places if you want a doom scroll
and doom listen. The world is filled with that. That's
actually part of the discussion of this is how in
this era of instant mass communication, intimate immediate mass communication,
where breaking news happens live to everyone at the same time,
(01:29):
how that affects us as individuals and the community. Because
this assassination today, and I will call it an assassination
until I'm told otherwise. I think it was clearly a
political murder, even though we don't know the anything really
about the alleged shooter, at least not right now, and
(01:51):
that may change by the time you listen to this.
But how are communities already reacting. You can find all
the doom and gloom and awful you want, but I
don't think that honors kind of the person that Charlie
Kirk was. And that's one of the unifying parts about
(02:12):
a tragedy of this is notice how the by part
is an appreciation for Charlie Kirk as someone who loved
discourse and the discussion is leading how his memory is
going to be honored because he really did come in
as an outsider, and he did approach and he was
(02:33):
interested in engagement at a really high level at showing
why humanity is humanity.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
And you know, I'm a big person on common ground.
I don't think there is anybody that I could sit
down with for an hour and not find something common.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
I just don't believe that.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So it doesn't matter what all your own political party,
what religion, what sexual orientation, It doesn't matter, there's something
we can find.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And you really did see that with a lot of
his his rhetoric style. And I don't mean rhetoric as
a bad way, it's it's the manner in which he
chose to speak and argue because there was a lot
of that common ground and commonality. Because it is easier
to connect once you've got some bridges, the two sides
(03:29):
in any dispute being miles apart with nothing in connect.
That's why you see real growth through the struggle process,
whether it be litigation, criminal or civil, or when you
get into things like mediation and I'll turn a dispute
resolution where the process of bringing together disparate groups, if
(03:49):
you can build that bridge, and that's how you start
flooding the other side with with some of your perspective.
And if you can you can give them that perspective,
that's how you change. You ain't never going to argue
somebody into change in their mind.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Never, that's never gonna work.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Nobody has ever said, you know what, they started yelling
at screaming at me, and I thought, you know what,
they're making sense.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
One of the co founders of the trial Ers College,
John Bob Rose, who was a Wyoming Supreme Court justice
who passed along before I ever was associated with college.
One of his sayings was, if you're arguing, you're losing,
And it's very similar to the if you're explaining your losing,
because you're never going to actually change a perspective. You're
(04:37):
never actually going to affect someone in a way they
go back and contemplate a new perspective. If they feel
lectured or if they feel instructed, that's against really the
common nature. It's one of the big issues with how
education works because you know, we spend a lot of
time lecturing kids and we've changed that now we engage
(04:59):
kids is experience in moving and showing.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
That's how you change people.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
We got some amendments, but the first one. The first
one is pretty simple. Any religion, you can speak how
you want, you can start a newspaper, you can gather
with like minded people. You can even make a petition
(05:25):
to say, hey, government, I want you to do something different.
And so to a whole bunch of people near me
that agree. We made it the first one for a reason,
and to me, I mean, you and I talked off air,
but it's kind of our thing.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It's a fundamental, core, central value to what it means
to be American. I was being interviewed by the British
press this afternoon involving Epstein, and then we got into
a bunch of other interesting topics, including speech and that
Banksy art that came out. And remember, the United States
(06:04):
is very unique in its unfettered freedoms where there's not
an automatically built in restriction. Now are there restrictions. Yes,
we have developed through our court system, legitimate, meaningful restrictions
on things like the freedom of speech. Because there are
certain forms of speech that are per se illegal, harmful, wrongful,
(06:28):
and those can be regulated. Things like commercial speech can
be regulated. But your individual speech that that's really hard
for anybody to restrict. And that's part of what makes
this American. Other countries view that as odd. Other countries
do not see that as a core fundamental value. And
(06:49):
that reflects on the freedom that is so central to
the American way of life, in the American Promise. It's
how we were able to conquer and control a giant,
wild continent and the representative democracy that we have, even
when it's messy, I still think it's the best damn
system anybody else's ever invented. I dare you to govern
(07:09):
a bunch of Americans any better?
Speaker 4 (07:12):
But you're right. The first Amendment.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
It's gonna come in on this, and any political violence
is abhorrent because of its natural effect in chilling free
speech and chilling political discourse. And so it's not a
censorship of you are prohibited from saying. It is the
(07:37):
overarching existential fear that exists in all Americans now and
has been inflicted on all of us, knowing that it's
that much more easy and common for our thought leaders
and our influential people to be injured, that injury is
transferred to us in many ways. So this was an
(07:58):
assassination on kind of all, all of our ability and
willingness to speak, because this wasn't even somebody that was
known for particularly aggressively flambuoyant speech. Certainly, there was divisive
and confrontational and tough stuff, high emotion stuff, important stuff
(08:19):
that he, more than so many others, attempted to keep
as rational and reasonable and common sense as possible. And
he approached from an outside perspective as someone who started
an organization as a eighteen year old, and it reflected
a very young generation in a way where he actively
(08:41):
courted all sides of the spectrum to come to his
pathway of belief, which different than mine. I'll just tell
you his lifestyle and my lifestyle have some pretty substantial differences.
But his conviction was beyond reproach. His reputation in a
slimy world was pretty impeccable. And this was a loss
(09:07):
for everybody.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It is a loss, and I'll tell you again going
back to common ground. He's a father, he's an American,
he loved this country, There's no doubt about it.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And to me, when you realize that there.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Has been an assassination based on someone's speech, based on
their belief, based on them being in public gathering, wanting
somebody to debate them, wanting to make sure, hey you're
saying this, but let me give you this and maybe
(09:45):
we can come together, maybe you can come to my side.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
A very open and welcoming I'm going to approach you
on the street and the level you know, going back
to a bunch of classical values of debate and discourse,
which I feel is very approachable no matter where you
are on the spectrum, no matter what your background is.
It was a format that was very accessible and that's
(10:11):
I believe why the cynical youth were so attracted to it.
And let's be frank, he had a lot of appeal
to younger people who felt that they were being ignored
because of the school they went. Many people credit him
with a downright revolution of centrist and right leaning groups
in campuses coast to coast. And you know, you may
(10:33):
love it or hate it, but it's good to see
young people get involved with politics. I don't care what
the position is. Get up there and shake your fist
and get pissed off and get it out of your
system because that's going to help you for the rest
of your life being politically engaged. It's going to give
you a more meaningful life to understand.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
That's the place to do it. Yeah right, I mean, come.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
On, I'm going to tell you I still agree with
all the dumb things I thought when I was twenty.
Find me someone at who's like, man, twenty year old
me totally had it together, one hundred percent, right on target,
no mistakes. It was just it was perfect at twenty now,
perfect place. Man, it killed me right now, You've got
(11:14):
to be But that's exactly what where that energy needs
to go is and have that passion manifest.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
But if I had the two of you in a room,
you see the common ground in the two of you,
your fathers, you're both debate people.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Oh, I'm sure we would have plenty of things to
agree on, even though there would be I think really
significant disagreements with what's necessarily important and when it comes
to policy and how we should be leading certain things.
But that's what makes our country so great is that
it really is based on this fantasy that was crafted
(11:54):
by a bunch of old white property owning men that
probably weren't going to let you, yes, you listener in
the room because at least half of you or female,
and probably a lot of you don't own property, or
a minority or anybody that's not a rich white male.
They were based all this on this very aspirational traditional
values that comes out of the Western Romantic tradition Greeks, Romans.
(12:18):
If you read about masonry, which is a very important
social issue at the time of our founding, that's really
how our nation was founded on these dreams and ideas.
But the men were very flawed and recognized flawed men
and women would come in the future and it's a
(12:40):
miracle that we have lasted and done so well for
so long. But we've still got some work to do
with this recent political violence. And it's not just limited
to this horrible assassination. We have had an attempted assassination
against President Trump. We've probably had many that we don't
even know about because they don't really talk about that stuff.
(13:03):
We have had a tax on you know, Greg Governor Whittmer.
We have had just kidnappings. We have had all kinds
of threats against judges, which is a particularly challenging issue
because who else are we trying to ask to be
fair to people that are hard to be fair to.
We've got to make sure judges are secure if we're
(13:26):
going to actually have independent judiciaries. But this uptick in
political violence really is an inflection moment, and we've got
to decide where we're going to go.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
And I hope that this.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Is in some way going to spur a national discussion
that we've begged for across the spectrum that impacts the
true crime universe, because so much of what we deal
with at some point involves the ease of access of
firearms or deals with the ease of let me not
(14:01):
say excitability, the facility or the hmm, let's get a
good five dollars work. How easy it is to piss
people off?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
There it is we've lost sure.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
I love the fact I can Facebook and Twitter with
all my friends all over the world. I went to
a little teeny hippie college in New England and I
got friends that live all over Africa and Southeast Asia.
And the Internet makes that amazing. Nothing my parents could
have done like that. The same time, all this digital
is so impersonal, and I worry about the value of
human life with all of this digital connection and inability
(14:40):
to regulate reality.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
You know, you mentioned a conversation that needs to happen.
And I don't know if you know this, but my
mother was a genius. And I'm not just saying that.
She graduated from college at seventeen with a degree in
economy from Mercy University. And the only reason she was
seventeen is because my grandfather made her weight until she
(15:08):
was older. Okay, so when I say she's a genius, seriously,
But one thing she would always talk about the Constitution
that she thought was the most brilliant part of the
whole thing was the preamble, so like, even before you
get to the meat of it, they're going to go
ahead and set the stage for you.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
And she thought that was such a brilliant move.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
And one of her favorite things in that whole preamble
was to ensure domestic tranquility because to her, she felt
like putting that burden on the government to keep the
peace within this country is paramount. And when you have
(15:51):
leaders that are in any way dividing people, that has
got to stop. We can't have a conversation if you're
just making fun or calling names or being argumentative. To
be argumentative, that is never going to solve what we
are clearly facing.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
We've got to build that common ground because it is
and we we as citizens need to hold our government
responsible not just.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
To protect our borders, which is really important.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But but to really ensure that tranquility and work for
the peace and dignity of the people of your community.
That that's if you ever read an indictment, people always says,
who's the victim. Who's the victim? Is it that person
that got shot? Well, you know they're a victim, But really,
if you read an indictment, the victim is the peace
(16:47):
and dignity of that governmental subdivision.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It's the state versus so and so, not the victim
versus them.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You're right, and the crime, the crime is a violation
of the peace and dignity in my case, in the
State of Georgia, of the State of Georgia, because the
State of Georgia has peace and dignity, and it's a
governmental interest to preserve it, to protect it, to promote it.
(17:16):
And I hope that we start focusing more on promoting
the peace, dignity, the tranquility of our federal constitution, because
we deserve as one of the most rich and successful
and advanced nations ever. If you know, people love to
concentrate on all the bad stuff that we do, and
(17:37):
we suck at this, and now look at the good
stuff that we do. Let's lean into that and make
those things even better and lead the world. We cannot
lead in all things, but the things we can't, let's
let's go out there and kick serious.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
But I'm gonna tell you something, Tomorrow's nine to eleven.
You don't have to look at another event in where
people came together quicker, faster, better, more productive. You're talking
about a handful of people that murdered three thousand. But
(18:14):
do you know in New York City alone, a million
people stood in line to give blood. A million And
that's just one example in that city. How many people
went there, how many people offered to help, I know,
home depot, they turned every truck they had around and said,
(18:34):
send everything to New York. Hammers, gloves, chainsaws, everybody did that. Everybody.
They brought dogs, they brought food. And it wasn't just America.
Look what happened in Gander. Look what happened all over
the world. The queen is playing God bless America.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
It was something that.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
You cannot explain it unless you literally and everybody can
tell you the almost minute by minute story.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Of that day. You know I it is. It is
one of those where it's it's etched in there.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
There is absolutely no way I can walk you through
watching the news shaving class.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
What I was doing, who I was going.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
And it's one of those things that illustrates the binds
that tie us together and and and those those commonalities that.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I worry we lose.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And and that's a change in the American fabric where
we've lost some of that homogeneity that was a strength,
and we've replaced it with some diversity and some difference,
which is also a strength. But it's a very different strength,
and it's a different cloth than what we are used to,
and that adjustment is is bumpy.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Uh it is.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
It is not the same cloth, and it's still wonderful,
but the difference is tough. And Cheryl, I know where
I'm looking at the lights. I know we're running out
of time.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
I got to.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Ask it because I didn't make it this year.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
I have swore, I.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Have sworn on all of my appropriate pinkies and toes
and et ceteras that next year I will be there.
Tell us about crime Con twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I'm gonna tell you something, Baby, Nancy, Grace, John and
Callahan Walsh, Nicole and Jim and Tara and Joe Batito,
Gabby Potito's four parents, Colby Ryme, Lori Vaalo's son, Josh, Michaelwitz,
Angeline Hartman, Nicole and Jimmy and Maria Kine, Paul Hols
(20:40):
ed newcomer Marcia Clark. I've never met her before, finally
got to meet her.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
How hard Nancy and the team at crime Con works.
The choreography is off the chain. When you're thinking about
this many people, with this many things going on.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
It is a whirlwind.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I tell people it's like a wedding. You plan for
a year and it is over before you know it,
and you remember not all of it, you know. But
there are moments that are so iconic, Like there was
one part I'm standing there, iced tea is in the room.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
So cool, Marcia Clark, everybody.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Iced Tea would have been my number one.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
And let me tell you, he was awesome.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
He was funny. Oh yeah, you would not have been disappointed.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
That would have been the total starstruck boy, like just complete,
that's my guy.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah yeah. And there was so many moments you sit
there and you're like, did I just have drinks with
iced tea?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
And Josh Minkow It's like what world am I in? Right?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And my sister Charlene and I were laughing because you
remember the Astronauts when they talked about coming home from
the moon. It's like, Okay, I mean it's gonna top that.
I mean, I walked to the moon yesterday. And now
I'm at Public's I mean so here, I'm at crime
(22:11):
cont and people are like, oh, can I take a
picture with you?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And I'm like, of.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Course, oh, can you, you know, sign this for me?
And you're just, you know, so great. And we love
Zone seven and we love Josh.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
It's weird.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I just love our little world.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Though, and they love you. And let me tell what happened.
I got to tell this to people because Josh ain't
gonna tell it.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
I'm gonna tell it. We're talking.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I'm there, and he's like, man, I've got this trial
and I've got a client this in jail. I've got
to go see them. I can't ditch them. I just
can't make it to crime cont He texted me and
he said, Hey, I'm overnighting you something at the hotel.
And I thought, that's super cool. I've never had that
happen in my whole life. And I thought, I'm gonna
(22:57):
look so freaking important when I get a package that's
been over to me Amazon.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
It's unreal.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So this fabulous hotel has a fed X in the basement.
So Walt said, you go on because I had a
session at nine o'clock. It opened right at nine, but
you have to be in the green room at eight thirty.
So there I am, and I'm with all the folks
from Cold Justice and just I mean, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
It's all these people that we listen. This is this
is not a podcast, like this is what I do.
This is Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So you in you're like, you know, hey, Kelly Zigler, good,
if you need something, call me. So anyway, just having
a great time, I mean, completely starstruck the whole time.
Well then I get this box and in the box
is about six boxes, and I'm like, what has Josh done? Y'all?
I opened that first box because I had no idea
(23:52):
what it was. They are replicas of his glasses, the
round glasses. There red, they're purple, they're pink, they're black.
I just shut the box real quick because I was like,
oh my gosh, I know exactly what I'm gonna do.
So Barbara Butcher and I had the very last session
(24:12):
of Crime Con. So these are the hardcore folks. They
didn't get a plane early. They're not leaving early. That room, Josh,
there had to be five hundred people in that room.
Barbara and I at the end we said, everybody, come forward.
Josh has sent y'all a gift.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Honey.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
They stolen the stage. We had the six boxes lined out.
We had volunteers that came up to open to pass
them all out.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
And then you've seen the video that I saw.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I was just gonna say, yeah, you guys have got
to see it. And meanwhile, there's a really huge case
happening in Georgia right now called cop City, which is
that that was this week.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
There's a death.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Penalty case happening this week. There's been a lot going on,
and so I see this video and my heart just
just melted, Like Cheryl, that was so so sweet.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
They were so excited, and I just not only appreciate
you being a part of my Zone seven, but just
being so generous to our zone sound.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
I love it. It is a profound It is on my calendar.
I just like, can't wait, can't wait. This is one
of those parts of my week that I just look
forward to. I love our conversations. I love what this
podcast and discussion represents and the people that listen to it,
because they're not out there spreading the doom and gloom.
They're looking for something that shows our commonality together because
(25:43):
we're good people and we want what's best, and good people,
we have so much more in common than we have
different We just need to focus on that and we
can we can talk through the problems the violence and
is violence and Aaron in the creation of humanity. Man,
that's a tough question. They've been working on that one
a long long time. There's a couple of good books
(26:06):
about it. The good book has a good bit about
the origins of original sin. There's a touch there. Really,
it's up to us to look up forward, to lead,
to be good people, and to move the conversation forward
in a good way. And that's one of the reasons
I just love being here.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
And I just want to end this particular crime round
up by saying, when it comes to Charlie Kirk, I
will pray for his children and I will defend forever
his right to say whatever he wanted to say in
the venue he chose to say it. And the same
goes for you.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
When we start missing that point that what are we
fighting for?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I want to say one more thing, Josh, because you
just reminded me of something. You and I a lot
of times we're on opposite sides of things just because
of the profession we chose. You and I have laughed
often that I don't use the word allegedly, you sometimes
have to teach.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
We're supposed to always crawl up and threaten to die on.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I mean, whatever you know, But here's what I know
for sure, and I want everybody to hear this. If
I disagree with you, this is something I practice.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
And I'll just use pizza because it's easy.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
If I say Pepperoni's the greatest pizza ever and you
say no, it's sausage and meatball pizza, Okay, we disagree.
I'm never gonna think you're correct.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
But here's what I do know.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
You lead with your heart, and if you're telling me
that that sausage and meatball pizza is the greatest, I
might have to try it. It may not change my mind,
but I know you are not deliberately trying to steer
me wrong. I know that you believe in your heart
it's the best, and other people agree with you, So
(28:09):
those fifty thousand people can't be wrong.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
And so we're just gonna Hey, we're gonna.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Order two pizzas. That's all there is to it, and
we're still gonna enjoy the margaritas together.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
You can agree to disagree for goodness sake, Come on,
all the scene exactly.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
It'd be boring. That's the spicy WAF.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
There, spicy life, baby, But I love you too, and
I appreciate you and y'all. As Joshua always says, facing
up forward, we're happy.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
It's gonna be all right.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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