September 19, 2025 • 39 mins
This week on Crime Roundup, former Secret Service agent Jim Rathmann joins Sheryl McCollum to examine the assassination of Charlie Kirk and what it reveals about growing security threats in the United States. Using his protection and weapons expertise, Rathmann walks through the timeline of the attack, analyzes the shooter’s behavior, and highlights security failures that left both the speaker and crowd exposed. Sheryl and Jim also discuss the rise of copycat violence, the role of online misinformation, and the ethical consequences of political extremism.
Highlights:
- (0:00) Sheryl opens with a breakdown of the Charlie Kirk assassination timeline
- (2:15) Jim Rathmann joins the show and discusses early video footage, crowd reactions, and the shot trajectory
- (6:30) Was it a professional hit or an untrained attack? Breaking down shot placement and rooftop tactics
- (8:30) Copycats and connections: what this attack has in common with others
- (14:15) "That guy looks like my doppelganger”: the suspect’s online posts and chat group confession
- (15:45) A father's choice to turn in his son and the aftermath for two families
- (19:30) Security failures, skipped steps, and countermeasures needed for the safety of future public events
- (21:45) Political differences, free speech, and finding a moral compass
- (25:45) Debunking conspiracy theories, online speculation, and viral misinformation
- (32:15) Sheryl commends law enforcement’s 16-minute response and coordinated effort
- (34:45) Future threats: desperation for attention and the risk of copycats
- (37:00) Sheryl wraps the show with some good news: Jim’s son Ethan’s baseball success
About the Hosts
Joshua Schiffer is a veteran trial attorney and one of the Southeast’s most respected legal voices. He is a founding partner at ChancoSchiffer P.C., where he has litigated high-stakes criminal, civil rights, and personal injury cases for over two decades. Known for his bold courtroom presence and ability to clearly explain complex legal issues, Schiffer is a frequent media contributor and a fearless advocate for accountability.
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award-winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, a forensic and crime scene expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. She is the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a national collaboration that advances techniques for solving cold cases and assists families and law enforcement with unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnappings.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It was Wednesday, September tenth. At eight twenty nine mountain time,
a suspect arrived on the campus of Utah Valley University.
He was caught on surveillance camera driving a gray Dodge Challenger.
At eleven forty nine am mountain time, the same suspect
(00:30):
can be seen on home surveillance camera about a quarter
a mile away from the shooting site. At noon, a
speech was scheduled to start in the courtyard of Utah
Valley University and the speaker was Charlie Kirk. At twelve
(00:50):
twenty three pm mountain time, Charlie Kirk is shot. The
suspected shooter can be seen on video on the roof.
He jumps off the roof and flees the area. By
twelve twenty four dispatch describes the person on the roof
as having a long gun a rifle. By twelve thirty
(01:14):
nine pm, the FBI and the Chief of Police were
onseen now, y'all, that's a sixteen minute response time. By
two thirty seven PM, officers were already searching about a
quarter mile north of campus. By two forty pm, President
Trump announces that mister Kirk has died. Thursday, September the eleventh,
(01:38):
at nine forty eight am, the FBI releases photos of
the person of interest. By ten forty five am, they
are offering one hundred thousand dollars reward. By five point thirty,
the FBI director is unseen. By six point fifteen, a
(01:59):
new photo is released. On September the twelfth. That morning,
Trump announces a suspect is in custody. We found out
later he was actually taken into custody the night before,
but they waited until the morning to announce it. Tonight,
(02:20):
we have longtime Zone seven friend and expert Jim Rathman.
Y'all knowing he's an expert in weapons, he's an expert
in combat training. He is a retired United States Secret
Service agent. He understands assassinations, he understands protecting people. There's
(02:43):
nobody better to walk us through this crime, how it occurred,
and what we might be looking at in the future. Jim,
thank you so much for coming on Zone seven so
quickly to talk about this case.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Thank you so much for having me. It's it's doing
an honor to be able to come on your show
and be able to catch up with you and to
be able to talk about these things with your audience,
and I look forward to this discussion, even though the topic.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Is very sad.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
It is sad, and I'll tell you, you know, I'm
one of those people, and I know you are, But
the first Amendment, I'm going to defend your right to
say whatever you want to say.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
That that is correct. You know, I don't know where
it's been lost over the years to where people can
are so objective to you being able to have your
free speech or to be able to kind of think
and have your own beliefs. I feel like if it's
gotten to a point now where if you don't believe
(03:43):
what it is that I say, what my side is,
then we're going to have a problem. And it's unfortunately
turning into a physical issue or even the worst case scenario,
which what we're seeing now, which is murder. And I
don't understand how we've gotten here.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Well, I'm going to let you take it from when
you got the news to maybe when you saw a
video or two. And I know you and I have
already talked about it, but I'll just say from my
point of view, the very first video I saw was
a young man way in the back elevated and he
(04:23):
was surrounded by friends, and you hear the shot. Every
single young man around him they all turned around. So
I knew immediately where the shot came from. And as
I got more information, there seems to be some copycat
factors here. Jim, I'm gonna let you take it from
(04:43):
when you first learned about it, how you started analyzing
the assassination.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
At the time, I was driving. I was on the
interstate and the news alert came across and said that
Charlie kirk I had been shot. So shortly after that,
I started getting messages from from friends and just random
people that I that I know that were trying to
know what I if I had any inside scoop as
(05:08):
to what was going on and what my thoughts were.
So I pulled over started seeing the videos. I had
a few of them coming through my phone. The first
one I saw was actually the uh the close up one,
which you know, you could obviously tell that his carotait
artery was hit and you pretty much know that that's
a mortal wound at that point. But much like you,
(05:29):
I started looking around to other videos, and I started
seeing videos and people where people were looking. That gives
you a clear indication of where it's going to come from,
because you know, it's not just the sound or the
pop of the firearm going off, it's also the you know,
as it's gonna wizz past people, they're going to know
where it came from and you're gonna hear it. You know,
(05:51):
bullet is does that as it zips right past you.
So it would have passed over all that crowd and
then start looking and kind it's sign to analyze where
the impact. To me, it looked like it may have
hit his chest. To me, it looked like it was
coming from the front. Now, whether it hit a microphone
(06:12):
or hit something that he had so the audience can
hear and reflect it up into the CARATEID I'm not
one hundred percent sure. Well, obviously that's what the autopsy
is going to really determine. But that's what it looked
like to me. So that's what I first initially thought.
But much like you, I was looking at the crowd.
Where's the crowd looking? That's going to lead you to
(06:32):
where the shooting more likely happened. The shooter is.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Did you think it was a professional hit.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
I never thought it was a professional hit. The reason
for that is, you know, the videos were also coming
out of a person on the roof. And the reason,
you know, I had a lot of people questioning, like, oh,
we hit a three x three area of the croated.
At no time in any of my training, any of
my friends' trainings that have trained and fire arms with
(07:01):
any capacity, are you ever taught to aim for the
neck or much less headshots. You always aim center mass
because you have you know, it's it's it's the biggest
area of target to be able to hit. Uh, And
that's what you're always taught because even if you miss
a little bit, you're still going to hit your target.
(07:23):
So that's why you're taught to center mass. But in
addition to that, you know, everybody's like, no, no, no,
he hit They hit a karate they hit it was
a three by three. You knew exactly what they were doing.
And again know that to me a few things said
and experienced one doing the shot from the open roof. Now,
I don't want to give a whole bunch of of
(07:46):
hips to people in the future because I don't want
this to ever happen again. But a trained sniper or
somebody that's trained in this and you know, as they
want to team it, a professional is not going to
do it on the top of a roof top. They're
either going to be further back or to be somewhere
where it's shat it stated, and you know, so that
way it's darker, you can conceal yourself more. So there's
(08:10):
a lot of little things. Uh, you know, being on
top of a roof, did it make a whole lot
of sense? You're you're very much exposed. So that wasn't
a well thought out plan and it was relatively sloppily done.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
No, I agree with you, And I want to talk
a little bit about when I say copycat, I'm really
interested in his internet searches. There are similarities to me
from the attempted assassination on Trump, meaning the rooftop outdoor
in the middle of a speech with a crowd of
(08:43):
people that are there for them, with the scope rifle
and a backpack, drove himself there, scoped it out. You know, beforehand,
he planned it. He knew where the victim would be. Well,
then he takes a little bit from the CEO in
New York where he's you know, got a backpack. Again,
he knew where the victim was going to be again,
(09:05):
and you know, he starts putting, you know, writings on
these casings. So that's an unusual thing that we're seeing now.
But again it's a coffeecat. He didn't think to do that.
And then the strangest thing, if he really did research assassinations,
if you look at doctor King and President Kennedy, in
(09:30):
both of those assassinations, the rifle was left behind. I
just think that's odd. I think that's a weird element
to your point, I think it's sloppy. I mean, we
got his DNA, they got it confirmed within forty eight hours.
I mean, that's to me, there's just too many similarities
(09:53):
to other big events. It seems like to me he
took on what he wanted. What is your thought?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
I agree with you. I think there's a lot of
copycat going on here, whether it's the rooftop you know,
like what happened with President Trump during the summer in Butler, Pennsylvania,
to the CEO of shooting there in New York where
you're riding on casings. I think there's a lot of
time that he spent on planning the assassination itself, but
(10:21):
lack of planning on how to get away with it,
and I'm grateful that he didn't put or none of
these people have put a whole lot of planning into
that because they've been able to be helped, you know,
to get justice for victims. But in this particular case here,
(10:43):
there's a few things that are odd to me. You know,
it's not just the fact that he fired off the shot,
it's the escape. And I think with this particular shooter,
when he jumped down from that roof, to me, it
looked like he rolled his ankle or injured himself in
some sort of capacity. And I think with the adrenaline
(11:05):
going on after just firing the shot and trying to escape,
was enough for him to get off the campus and
into that wooded area where he disposed of the rifle.
But I think the pain may have been increasing as
he was moving towards that wooded area, and it really
wasn't his plan to ditch the rifle. He ended up
ditching the rifle because he was slowing him down. And
(11:28):
you know, that's just been a thought of mine. I
don't know if you guys have seen that or if
you saw that too. When he jumped off the roof,
but he looked injured.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Oh no, I agree, no doubt. And I didn't know
where the tile came from. I didn't know if it
was something that he already had with him, something he
saw and thought, hey, I can hide this thing and
maybe nobody will see it. But again, for him just
to casually go up a stairwell and then jump off
a roof, I don't think that was well thought out.
(11:57):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
I don't think it was all thought out plan. I
think it was more of a panic mode and I
need to get away. He left the screwdriver on top
of the roof. On top of that, you know, the
video got him jumping off of the roof, hiding it
in the woods and then being able to cut through neighborhoods.
You know, really wasn't And again I don't think the
(12:19):
ditching of the rifle in the woods was really his plan.
I think he was injured and as the pain was,
you know, setting in, as he's getting further away from
the scene, he had to ditch the rifle because he's
eventually going to get stopped. Their questions with him being
slowed down to what happened, and that may have been
one of his reasons for ditching that rifle there where
he did, and.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
That could be the same thing the King assassination scene
as well as President Kennedy. I mean, you have planned
this thing, You've thought it through, you've run it through
your head. Now that it's actually happened, you've got people screaming,
you've got people running. You know, you put that weapon
down and brace it up against the wall. You know there,
(13:01):
it's going to be in the school book depository there,
it's going to be in the boarding house. So it
could very well be like you're saying, is just your
mind is now in fifty thousand different directions because you've
done the thing you've only been thinking about.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Well, you have those physiological responses. It's a lot of
soldiers get that in combat. You know, you get those
physiological changes that fight or flight kicks in. You know,
you're no longer thinking about it, you actually put it
to plan or you know, same with the crowd. I
mean they went through those physiological changes as well. They
hear the shot coming, they're scared, fight or flight. You run,
(13:38):
some stay, some want to fight. Same thing with the shooter.
He fired off that shot. Now the adrenaline kicks in.
Now he's in flight mode. I got to get out
of here, and so that ability to be able to
think clearly in those moments goes away, and you're just
reacting at that point for the shooter. And I'm glad
(13:58):
that he left evan spot, and I'm glad that he
hurt himself jumping off that roof, because and that is
if he hurt himself. But I think that's what led
to the rifle being ditched. And I think that, you know,
it was that panic that left a lot of of
DNA evidence and other evidence for us to collect to
be able to hold him accountable for the murder of Charlie.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Kirk agreed, And you know, when he gets to wherever
he's headed and he's kind of in a quiet place,
he immediately now goes to social media, which so many
killers do, and then he's talking to a group of
people that know him. They know what he looks like,
they know how he's been acting the last several months,
(14:37):
the things he's been saying, and he literally says, Hey,
did y'all hear about this? That guy looks like my doppelganger, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I saw that, And you know, I think he wanted
that gratification from some people to know, like, he did this,
but he doesn't really want people to know he did it,
but he kind of does want people to know he
did it, so he's kind of playing that game like, Oh,
it looks like me, but it's not me. But if
it was me, now this just one of those kind
(15:07):
of disgusting, delusional thought processes.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
He made an admission on that same social media that, hey, y'all,
it is me, sorry for everything. I'm going to turn
myself in with a family friend that's in law enforcement.
What's really powerful about that, if it turns out to
be true, is that was without law enforcement. He made
(15:36):
that on his own.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
You know, what a what a crazy position it's in
to be in to be that the the suspect's father
and the family and those that realize that, wait a minute,
this is my child. And you know a lot of
times there are you could ask people these questions, and
there's some people that say, no, I would I would
cover for my son, or I would I would do
(15:59):
it they could to help them get away with it.
There's other people like, heck, no, you did the crime.
You do the time, you know, you really you could
ask that question hypothetically, but this parent was actually in
that position and their morals kicked in and it was
what you did was wrong, and you need to be
held accountable and you need to turn yourself in and
(16:21):
to go through the pastor to get a hold of
law enforcement or however, I've heard multiple different ways about
how it got too law enforcement, the fact that he
confided in his father, then the father turned in his
own son. I can't imagine how difficult that is as
a parent. But at the same time, I agree, and
(16:44):
you know, it's a difficult situation to be in. And
I know people are like, well did they get the
hundred thousand dollars reward? How about guarantee you that father
does not care about that hundred thousand dollar reward because
more than one family was destroyed that day, you know
the shooters. You know, not only is Charlie Kirk Samley destroyed,
but so is the shooters. You know, their lives will
(17:05):
that will be the same. The father's life will never
be the same.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I mean, he's got two younger brothers. I don't know
how you send them back to school or around the
neighborhood or anything. I mean, you're you are not overstating
that more than one family was destroyed that day, no
doubt about it. And you know what's so crazy. Let's
just take the father right, So he sees this photograph,
(17:32):
he knows his child well. He also knows teachers are
going to recognizing friends, are going to recognizing neighbors, are
going to recognizing other family members, cousins, aunts, uncles, They're
going to recognize him. In one way. If you can
get to him, you may save his life. Because I
(17:53):
thought he may go somewhere and take his own lot.
But he and his dad connected for and I think
that probably saved his life. Now I agree, he's got
an answer for what he did. But these parents sometimes
try to protect thinking I can insulate everybody knows. Everybody
(18:14):
already knows they're seeing the same thing you're seeing.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
You know, it's I had the same thoughts you did
on that. I thought for sure, when they would catch
the shooter, they would find the shooter, but there would
be death by suicide with an explanation for why they
did it, or maybe not even leave an explanation, just
leaving for pure mystery. That's what I was thinking was
going to happen. But I agree with you. I think
(18:41):
the father realizing and knowing, but at least having that
much of a relationship with a son to be able
to talk to him, to get him to confide in them,
to admit to what had happened, but then doing the
right thing and having him turned in to authorities. I
do think that saved his life. It's a terrible, unfortunate situation,
(19:03):
but I agree with what my father did.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
As devastating, as unbearable as that has to be. But
I mean, I just think in that moment, you have
very few options if your son is going to survive. Now,
you know one thing that just drives me crazy. You
and I talked about both attempts on President Trump's life,
(19:30):
the one where he's given the speech and the shooters
on the roof. I mean, a forty dollars drone would
have signaled that person was there. I do not understand
why drones are not being used, even by campus police.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I completely agree with you that I think the drones
could definitely help. But what I've found in both of
those situations just as lack of physical security as well.
I mean, he only had six campus police officers, he
only had his personal security attachment that was around him,
but there was nothing to expand that out. And I
think if you're going to have a large crowd of
(20:06):
a major figure such as him, who brings in thousands
of people, I mean, he was a well known public figure,
why they wouldn't have more beefed up security. I think
it's just to the point now where you're gonna have
big events, you have to have metal detectors. But again,
you know, the lack of security is the issue, and
(20:29):
you know that was the same thing that happened in Butler, Pennsylvania. Yeah,
there was some secret service and there was some local
law enforcement, but there wasn't enough and they didn't they
you know, some steps were skipped, as you know now
that they've actually you know, put some people on suspension
and things like that. But you know, in this case,
they had they had nothing. They had nothing on the roof,
they had nothing security in the high ground, they had
(20:50):
no funnel system to create to have people go through magnetometers.
There's no reason why the campus police only had six
people there. And if it's not the campus police is
issue that you know. I do believe that the security
detail for Charlie Kirk could have fired off duty police
officers to work the event, and you know, maybe they
didn't take the threat level serious enough, but they definitely
(21:14):
could have taken a lot more countermeasures to secure the venue.
And I just think that's the way it needs to
go in the future. That any major public figure is
going to go and do any type of public speaking
in the open like that, you have to take the
necessary steps to secure it and make sure that you're safe.
But it's not just the principle itself that needs to
be safe. It's all persons that show up to the
(21:36):
event need to know that they're going to be safe
as well.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
There's been two attempts on President Trump's life, two congressmen
have been killed, Charlie Kirk has now been killed, There's
been other events that, to me, you just can't ignore.
There's a trend right now period. Every threat needs to
(22:02):
be taken seriously.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I think it's no longer just air coming out of
somebody's mouth. I think there's a lot of ill intent
behind those words and people are actually acting on it,
and it's now time that we need to counteract that
and prevent it the best that we can. You know,
it's I don't really understand just because you disagree with
(22:24):
somebody on the other side, whether it's politics or religion,
or sex and gender, whatever those hot topics are, you
can have a difference of opinion. It doesn't mean that
that person needs to lose their life over it. And
I find it utterly disgusting. I do. I find it
to be utterly disgusting that people were celebrating this man
(22:46):
losing his life for going out and having talks with people.
He's making you aware, he's allowing you a platform to speak,
and I don't agree with people celebrating that. I find
it to be the most disgusting thing. And maybe social
media these days, and you know, people are hiding behind
us that the keyboard and their phones and you know,
(23:08):
feel like they can just post whatever they want whenever
they want and not realize the reapercussions that come with it.
But to the hate and the vile, it's disgusting. I
think a lot of people need to find that moral
compass and figure out who they are and where they're
lacking in their own lives to be able to go
and celebrate. To me, I would be just upset if
(23:29):
it was somebody on the complete other side of this.
You know, nobody should ever lose their life first speaking
and talking and what is a constitutional right?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I don't care who it is. I'll be very clear.
I don't care what religion, what sexual orientation, I don't
care what the speech is. Give it. I will stand
there and be a champion for you to be able
to say whatever it is. And that's why this is
(24:01):
not a political show. This is about a murder that
a whole lot of people witnessed in person and a
whole lot more witnessed online. So it doesn't matter if
you're a fan. There's an old saying in you know,
when we did our trauma training, it says, kill one
(24:24):
fright in a thousand. Well, it's almost like if they're
trying to silence somebody, if they're trying to silence anybody,
it's not okay. It's not okay. And again, political assassinations
nothing new, y'all. I just listed the ones in my lifetime,
but that ain't the only ones. And you know, if
(24:47):
this is something that you think should be celebrated, who
is on your list? Who is it you admire, who
is it you want to listen to talk? If they
had been assassinated, how would you feel, you.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Know, at the end of the day too, it's like
you might silence that one particular person, but you you
open up the voice for so many others. And I
think in this particular case, and I've heard this many
a time since, you may have taken out the Charlie Kirk,
but you just created thousands upon thousands of new Charlie Kirks,
you know. And that's the way it works on both sides.
And again, that moral compass needs to need to come
(25:25):
into play at some point. People need to really find
out who they are and what they believe in or
find you know, their religion or their peace or whatever
it is. But at the end of the day, killing
anybody else is just it's disgusting. But the celebrated is
just as bad, you know. And you know, another topic
two I'd kind of like to bring up, if you
don't mind, Eryl, is I think it's I think it's
(25:48):
very dangerous with some of these people that are coming
out that are constantly on these conspiracy theories of who
did what and how they did it, and you know,
analyzing vis and saying well look at this here and
look at this there. I mean, I saw one earlier
today they're like, oh, look at this person behind him
and off to the side, And you know, you have
(26:11):
to have some sort of common sense into what they're
trying to put out there for their clickbaits or whatever
they're doing. You know, it's nobody's reviewed what the autopsy
as there was an autopsy, I guarantee you they obviously
went and some pathologists reviewed where the entringe agent. That's
(26:32):
part of the homicide file. So someone obviously did that.
You know, they're they're just going on with what they
think and what they believe, and they're really not They
have no facts, they have no experience, and what they're
saying is so much garbage, and they're just polluting people's minds.
So you're already taking a bad situation and now you're
putting gasoline on it, making it even worse. And I
(26:54):
think that's a very dangerous road that we're going on.
I don't know how many times you've seen it in
the last week of just the amount of just.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
God, I'll give you one, this is my favorite. He
had to be an expert, right, that's the first one,
complete trash. Then the next group he didn't know what
he was doing, but look at the guy behind Charlie
giving him hand signals. Okay, hold on a minute, Hold
on a minute. I'm gonna stand behind the victim and
(27:27):
I'm telling you that boy don't know how to shoot,
but I'm going to I'm going to give him the
hand signal when to go and pray he don't hit me.
Get out of here.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Sense if you know so what's going to fire a
shot and you're that close to you really trust that person? Like,
do I really know how well you shoot from a
couple hundred yards away? No shot at no chance is
that ever going to happen? And and and if I
may speak on this too, I know a lot of
people are giving that the person directly behind him. And
(28:00):
then there's the person in the white hat who adjusted
his hat and scratched his face. They're trying to be like, oh,
he's wiggling on his ear and giving signals. There's another
video from behind the person with the white hat, and
you can see him adjust his hat and then he
scratched his face. But if you watch videos for a
few minutes, he acted scratched his face a few times
throughout that so it wasn't like that was the only
time he scratched his face. The other thing is is
(28:21):
the personal security guard that was directly behind selling Kirk,
that was the one that moved up and started touching
his arm. We don't know what he's come out yet,
and said, we don't know exactly what he saw. What
I do know is that security personnels, they all wearing
the earpiece, are communicating. So sometimes you give handed arm
signals to signify signal to the others out there, I'm good,
(28:44):
where I'm at, or waybe they saw something on the
rooftop and he had already signaled to somebody else and
he steps forward just point to his arm to say, hey,
armed person rooftop, you don't know what that is. They
have to operate in a way that isn't going to
freak out the entire public. I guarantee you that that
(29:06):
guy standing behind Charlie Kirk knew that that was a
shooter on that roof Tarli Kirk would have been off
that stage so fast he.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Would have tackled him off that chair exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
And you know they give go to concerts, go to
live events and watch you will see these personnel. The
security personnel will communicate with handed arm signals. That is
a common practice and personal security. So for them to
go out there and be like, oh, he's signaling for
the shooter. Okay, man, do you really want to be
three feet away from the guy shooting two hundred yards? Agay?
Speaker 1 (29:41):
When he's got him locked is when he goes not
your hand signal, because if you watch Charlie Kirk, he
leans up at one point. I don't know if he's
reaching for I don't remember if he's reaching for the
microphone or if he's putting something down like he moves.
So the shooter's waiting on him to get he needs
him to be before he makes that shot. Period into story.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
You know, the other part in regards to the shooter
talking about him if he was a professional not a professional. Again,
nowhere throughout my training or any of the training of
those that I know that have done it, done it
in world world experience, has done it in combat things
like that. Were you ever trained outside of the centro mask?
You know? And then I've heard people be like, well
(30:26):
two hundred yards, you know, two hundred yards is such
a crazy shot. Not with a scope, it's not a
crazy shot. And not to mention. Then people are like
what about the angle. So for those that aren't familiar
with it, angle really doesn't come into play until you're
more than thirty degrees. So for a two hundred yard shot,
(30:46):
looking you know, second story, third story, and you're shooting there,
most people will what we refer to as zeroing in
your rifle, So you are dialing it in at a
certain distance. Right, So let's say most people will do
one hundred yards. Some might be further than that, but
we'll just do one hundred yards. It's a two hundred
yard shot. The most you're going to be off of
(31:08):
your target is about an inch, maybe a little more,
maybe an inch and a half at most, you know,
because of the distance and where you're zeroed at. So
for those that sit there and say, you know, this
is such a difficult shot and had to be a professional,
he had to aim for the karate I guarantee that
wasn't what happened. It just needs to stop, and they
(31:29):
need to wait for the official information. But my goodness,
why don't why don't we wait for the corners report
to come out that'll talk about the entrance and exit wound.
Very well could have hit something on him and it
ricocheted up. We don't really know yet, but we will
know in time. And let the investigators work. But stop
(31:49):
with this propaganda and for clicks on social media putting
out all this false information. Everything's a conspiracy. I might
have heard it all from this was Israel all the
way to professional hits to It needs to stop. There's
a family out there that's suffering right now, and there's
so much bologna out there. About ninety percent of what
I've heard is just nonsense.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
And let's bragg a law enforcement, not only for the
federal government. Was there a sixteen minute response time? They
had seven thousand tips that first day, seven thousand to
wade through while they have an active scene, while they
have an active man hunt, and local and state and
(32:35):
federal it appears to me worked seamlessly together.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
They did an amazing job. I mean that a sixteen
minute response time the federal government that's not even on
scene is impressive. I don't think they've responded that's probably
since nine to eleven. That's pretty incredible to be on
there that quickly after a shooting like this. I thought
they did it very good job. The only thing I
(33:02):
wish they would have done a little bit cleaner was
not come out and say they got the shooter right
out of the gate or even later on that day.
I think they I wish they would have waited until
they knew that they had everything correct before they announced
that they had somebody in custody, as unfortunately they give
us false hoaps twice on that. That'd be about the
only flaw I would find Other than that. I think
they all worked wonderfully together with the communications to you know, God,
(33:29):
going through all the information, all the tips, and getting
to the bottom of it so quickly. For public safety
as well. I thought they did an incredible.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Job me too. And you know, I didn't know if
they were saying that because there was somebody that they
wanted to go back to social media, see it wasn't me.
I didn't know if they were trying to draw somebody
out or if that was, you know, to kind of
jumping the gun. I didn't know which it was.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Well, I actually first thought when they had somebody and
then they released them, and then there's another person interviewed,
and really I started to think at that point that
there's more than one person potentially involved in and I
still feel that there may have been some people that
knew that this was coming, which is why maybe he
had the confidence to go on Discord and speak about
(34:15):
the things that he did. But when I first heard
about the two people they had in custody and let
them go, they were released, it's because I thought that
maybe they were a diversion for the actual shooter to
get away.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Got you, got you? Okay? So we both thought it
was a play. We didn't know which one.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
We didn't know which one, and I thought maybe into
the panic and if they acted strange and odd, it
would have drawt It would draw police's attention to them,
while the real suspect, you know, escapes out the back,
so to speak.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Okay, I agree with you about conspiracy theorists, but this
is a fact based show, so I'm going to ask
you factually and again, Jim Raffman, with your background as
a scene good service agent, are you concerned that this
young man did some research and decided he was going
(35:07):
to be an assassin? And do you think there's other
young people that are out there researching and platinum planning.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
I wish there wasn't, but I strongly feel that there's
people out there that are wanting to do harm to
others that are out there now maybe getting their inspiration
from this, that are going to try to attack more
people in the future. I pray that it does not happen,
but I fear that's the times that we live in,
and I think people are now starting to become very
(35:39):
desperate who either get attention or to draw attention, whether
it comes from the right ways of doing it or
the wrong way of doing it. So I think the
threat is very real, and I think for everyone out
there that's protecting a whether it's a public figure, a politician,
anyone of status, basically, I think they really need to
(36:02):
step up their security gain to prevent it. You know,
we know the assassination that have happened. What we don't
know is how many assassination attempts that have been diverted
or we're not able to go through because security was
beefed up at the right places at the right time.
So I think it's time for everybody to that's out
(36:22):
there in this world providing protection at any capacity, to
take the threat seriously and spend a little bit more
time beefing up your security to ensure that all parties
are safe, not just for the protectee. But for all
the people that come to watch too. I mean, it's unfortunate.
There are children, there are adults, There are Kyle Jade
(36:43):
students that all witnessed what happened last week and the
amount of ETSD that's going to live in them forever.
Their lives were forever changed, and we need to prevent
this as much assumingly possible.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Well, if it is okay with you, mister rev Man,
I am going to end with some good news. I
want to talk about your son, y'all. Let me tell
you something, Ethan Rathman. I have been able to watch
him for years. He is, I would just say, a
shooting star in the world of baseball. He just completed
(37:22):
an event where his team won the championship, and I
know for a fact many Major league teams are looking
at him.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Now.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I don't want to throw my own, you know, fanship
in the circle, but I would love to be able
to go watch him in person in Atlanta. So braves
Ethan Rathman. But you know, Jim, honestly, I mean congratulations
for everything that he has accomplished. He has worked hard.
There has been no off days forget off season, y'all.
(37:55):
That child hadn't taken a day off, and I just
can't wait to celebrate when he gets drafted.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Thank you so very much for saying that he is.
He has absolutely worked his butt off. We've been blessed
with great coaches, great teammates and parents, you know, instructors
along the way. He has an amazing advisor that's helping
him through this process. We're very fortunate. You know, he
signs a University of Miami soon. You know, they really
(38:24):
believed in him when he was even younger than this,
and he fell in love with the school and more
importantly the coaches and the staff and what University of
Miami brings. So he'll be signing there with them in November.
But he's a he's a very much a legitimate prospect
to get drafted next July. And I know you're a
major Brains fan, which is great. We are open to
(38:45):
all any and all teams obviously that are willing to
believe in him and give him a shot. I'm very
very confident he's going to get that shot here in
a few months.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Well, he'll find him a home. There's no doubt. He's
got too much talent. But again, congratulations to you.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Thank you so very much. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
All Right, y'all, I'm going to end Zone seven the
way that I always do with a quote. I'm a
religious person in the most unqualified sense of the word,
but I can say emphatically that there is more moral validity,
an honest searching for values of life on campuses today
(39:25):
than can be found in our churches. CORRETTA Scott King,
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
It was Wednesday, September tenth. At eight twenty nine mountain time,
a suspect arrived on the campus of Utah Valley University.
He was caught on surveillance camera driving a gray Dodge Challenger.
At eleven forty nine am mountain time, the same suspect
(00:30):
can be seen on home surveillance camera about a quarter
a mile away from the shooting site. At noon, a
speech was scheduled to start in the courtyard of Utah
Valley University and the speaker was Charlie Kirk. At twelve
(00:50):
twenty three pm mountain time, Charlie Kirk is shot. The
suspected shooter can be seen on video on the roof.
He jumps off the roof and flees the area. By
twelve twenty four dispatch describes the person on the roof
as having a long gun a rifle. By twelve thirty
(01:14):
nine pm, the FBI and the Chief of Police were
onseen now, y'all, that's a sixteen minute response time. By
two thirty seven PM, officers were already searching about a
quarter mile north of campus. By two forty pm, President
Trump announces that mister Kirk has died. Thursday, September the eleventh,
(01:38):
at nine forty eight am, the FBI releases photos of
the person of interest. By ten forty five am, they
are offering one hundred thousand dollars reward. By five point thirty,
the FBI director is unseen. By six point fifteen, a
(01:59):
new photo is released. On September the twelfth. That morning,
Trump announces a suspect is in custody. We found out
later he was actually taken into custody the night before,
but they waited until the morning to announce it. Tonight,
(02:20):
we have longtime Zone seven friend and expert Jim Rathman.
Y'all knowing he's an expert in weapons, he's an expert
in combat training. He is a retired United States Secret
Service agent. He understands assassinations, he understands protecting people. There's
(02:43):
nobody better to walk us through this crime, how it occurred,
and what we might be looking at in the future. Jim,
thank you so much for coming on Zone seven so
quickly to talk about this case.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Thank you so much for having me. It's it's doing
an honor to be able to come on your show
and be able to catch up with you and to
be able to talk about these things with your audience,
and I look forward to this discussion, even though the topic.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Is very sad.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
It is sad, and I'll tell you, you know, I'm
one of those people, and I know you are, But
the first Amendment, I'm going to defend your right to
say whatever you want to say.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
That that is correct. You know, I don't know where
it's been lost over the years to where people can
are so objective to you being able to have your
free speech or to be able to kind of think
and have your own beliefs. I feel like if it's
gotten to a point now where if you don't believe
(03:43):
what it is that I say, what my side is,
then we're going to have a problem. And it's unfortunately
turning into a physical issue or even the worst case scenario,
which what we're seeing now, which is murder. And I
don't understand how we've gotten here.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Well, I'm going to let you take it from when
you got the news to maybe when you saw a
video or two. And I know you and I have
already talked about it, but I'll just say from my
point of view, the very first video I saw was
a young man way in the back elevated and he
(04:23):
was surrounded by friends, and you hear the shot. Every
single young man around him they all turned around. So
I knew immediately where the shot came from. And as
I got more information, there seems to be some copycat
factors here. Jim, I'm gonna let you take it from
(04:43):
when you first learned about it, how you started analyzing
the assassination.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
At the time, I was driving. I was on the
interstate and the news alert came across and said that
Charlie kirk I had been shot. So shortly after that,
I started getting messages from from friends and just random
people that I that I know that were trying to
know what I if I had any inside scoop as
(05:08):
to what was going on and what my thoughts were.
So I pulled over started seeing the videos. I had
a few of them coming through my phone. The first
one I saw was actually the uh the close up one,
which you know, you could obviously tell that his carotait
artery was hit and you pretty much know that that's
a mortal wound at that point. But much like you,
(05:29):
I started looking around to other videos, and I started
seeing videos and people where people were looking. That gives
you a clear indication of where it's going to come from,
because you know, it's not just the sound or the
pop of the firearm going off, it's also the you know,
as it's gonna wizz past people, they're going to know
where it came from and you're gonna hear it. You know,
(05:51):
bullet is does that as it zips right past you.
So it would have passed over all that crowd and
then start looking and kind it's sign to analyze where
the impact. To me, it looked like it may have
hit his chest. To me, it looked like it was
coming from the front. Now, whether it hit a microphone
(06:12):
or hit something that he had so the audience can
hear and reflect it up into the CARATEID I'm not
one hundred percent sure. Well, obviously that's what the autopsy
is going to really determine. But that's what it looked
like to me. So that's what I first initially thought.
But much like you, I was looking at the crowd.
Where's the crowd looking? That's going to lead you to
(06:32):
where the shooting more likely happened. The shooter is.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Did you think it was a professional hit.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
I never thought it was a professional hit. The reason
for that is, you know, the videos were also coming
out of a person on the roof. And the reason,
you know, I had a lot of people questioning, like, oh,
we hit a three x three area of the croated.
At no time in any of my training, any of
my friends' trainings that have trained and fire arms with
(07:01):
any capacity, are you ever taught to aim for the
neck or much less headshots. You always aim center mass
because you have you know, it's it's it's the biggest
area of target to be able to hit. Uh, And
that's what you're always taught because even if you miss
a little bit, you're still going to hit your target.
(07:23):
So that's why you're taught to center mass. But in
addition to that, you know, everybody's like, no, no, no,
he hit They hit a karate they hit it was
a three by three. You knew exactly what they were doing.
And again know that to me a few things said
and experienced one doing the shot from the open roof. Now,
I don't want to give a whole bunch of of
(07:46):
hips to people in the future because I don't want
this to ever happen again. But a trained sniper or
somebody that's trained in this and you know, as they
want to team it, a professional is not going to
do it on the top of a roof top. They're
either going to be further back or to be somewhere
where it's shat it stated, and you know, so that
way it's darker, you can conceal yourself more. So there's
(08:10):
a lot of little things. Uh, you know, being on
top of a roof, did it make a whole lot
of sense? You're you're very much exposed. So that wasn't
a well thought out plan and it was relatively sloppily done.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
No, I agree with you, And I want to talk
a little bit about when I say copycat, I'm really
interested in his internet searches. There are similarities to me
from the attempted assassination on Trump, meaning the rooftop outdoor
in the middle of a speech with a crowd of
(08:43):
people that are there for them, with the scope rifle
and a backpack, drove himself there, scoped it out. You know, beforehand,
he planned it. He knew where the victim would be. Well,
then he takes a little bit from the CEO in
New York where he's you know, got a backpack. Again,
he knew where the victim was going to be again,
(09:05):
and you know, he starts putting, you know, writings on
these casings. So that's an unusual thing that we're seeing now.
But again it's a coffeecat. He didn't think to do that.
And then the strangest thing, if he really did research assassinations,
if you look at doctor King and President Kennedy, in
(09:30):
both of those assassinations, the rifle was left behind. I
just think that's odd. I think that's a weird element
to your point, I think it's sloppy. I mean, we
got his DNA, they got it confirmed within forty eight hours.
I mean, that's to me, there's just too many similarities
(09:53):
to other big events. It seems like to me he
took on what he wanted. What is your thought?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
I agree with you. I think there's a lot of
copycat going on here, whether it's the rooftop you know,
like what happened with President Trump during the summer in Butler, Pennsylvania,
to the CEO of shooting there in New York where
you're riding on casings. I think there's a lot of
time that he spent on planning the assassination itself, but
(10:21):
lack of planning on how to get away with it,
and I'm grateful that he didn't put or none of
these people have put a whole lot of planning into
that because they've been able to be helped, you know,
to get justice for victims. But in this particular case here,
(10:43):
there's a few things that are odd to me. You know,
it's not just the fact that he fired off the shot,
it's the escape. And I think with this particular shooter,
when he jumped down from that roof, to me, it
looked like he rolled his ankle or injured himself in
some sort of capacity. And I think with the adrenaline
(11:05):
going on after just firing the shot and trying to escape,
was enough for him to get off the campus and
into that wooded area where he disposed of the rifle.
But I think the pain may have been increasing as
he was moving towards that wooded area, and it really
wasn't his plan to ditch the rifle. He ended up
ditching the rifle because he was slowing him down. And
(11:28):
you know, that's just been a thought of mine. I
don't know if you guys have seen that or if
you saw that too. When he jumped off the roof,
but he looked injured.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Oh no, I agree, no doubt. And I didn't know
where the tile came from. I didn't know if it
was something that he already had with him, something he
saw and thought, hey, I can hide this thing and
maybe nobody will see it. But again, for him just
to casually go up a stairwell and then jump off
a roof, I don't think that was well thought out.
(11:57):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
I don't think it was all thought out plan. I
think it was more of a panic mode and I
need to get away. He left the screwdriver on top
of the roof. On top of that, you know, the
video got him jumping off of the roof, hiding it
in the woods and then being able to cut through neighborhoods.
You know, really wasn't And again I don't think the
(12:19):
ditching of the rifle in the woods was really his plan.
I think he was injured and as the pain was,
you know, setting in, as he's getting further away from
the scene, he had to ditch the rifle because he's
eventually going to get stopped. Their questions with him being
slowed down to what happened, and that may have been
one of his reasons for ditching that rifle there where
he did, and.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
That could be the same thing the King assassination scene
as well as President Kennedy. I mean, you have planned
this thing, You've thought it through, you've run it through
your head. Now that it's actually happened, you've got people screaming,
you've got people running. You know, you put that weapon
down and brace it up against the wall. You know there,
(13:01):
it's going to be in the school book depository there,
it's going to be in the boarding house. So it
could very well be like you're saying, is just your
mind is now in fifty thousand different directions because you've
done the thing you've only been thinking about.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Well, you have those physiological responses. It's a lot of
soldiers get that in combat. You know, you get those
physiological changes that fight or flight kicks in. You know,
you're no longer thinking about it, you actually put it
to plan or you know, same with the crowd. I
mean they went through those physiological changes as well. They
hear the shot coming, they're scared, fight or flight. You run,
(13:38):
some stay, some want to fight. Same thing with the shooter.
He fired off that shot. Now the adrenaline kicks in.
Now he's in flight mode. I got to get out
of here, and so that ability to be able to
think clearly in those moments goes away, and you're just
reacting at that point for the shooter. And I'm glad
(13:58):
that he left evan spot, and I'm glad that he
hurt himself jumping off that roof, because and that is
if he hurt himself. But I think that's what led
to the rifle being ditched. And I think that, you know,
it was that panic that left a lot of of
DNA evidence and other evidence for us to collect to
be able to hold him accountable for the murder of Charlie.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Kirk agreed, And you know, when he gets to wherever
he's headed and he's kind of in a quiet place,
he immediately now goes to social media, which so many
killers do, and then he's talking to a group of
people that know him. They know what he looks like,
they know how he's been acting the last several months,
(14:37):
the things he's been saying, and he literally says, Hey,
did y'all hear about this? That guy looks like my doppelganger, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I saw that, And you know, I think he wanted
that gratification from some people to know, like, he did this,
but he doesn't really want people to know he did it,
but he kind of does want people to know he
did it, so he's kind of playing that game like, Oh,
it looks like me, but it's not me. But if
it was me, now this just one of those kind
(15:07):
of disgusting, delusional thought processes.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
He made an admission on that same social media that, hey, y'all,
it is me, sorry for everything. I'm going to turn
myself in with a family friend that's in law enforcement.
What's really powerful about that, if it turns out to
be true, is that was without law enforcement. He made
(15:36):
that on his own.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
You know, what a what a crazy position it's in
to be in to be that the the suspect's father
and the family and those that realize that, wait a minute,
this is my child. And you know a lot of
times there are you could ask people these questions, and
there's some people that say, no, I would I would
cover for my son, or I would I would do
(15:59):
it they could to help them get away with it.
There's other people like, heck, no, you did the crime.
You do the time, you know, you really you could
ask that question hypothetically, but this parent was actually in
that position and their morals kicked in and it was
what you did was wrong, and you need to be
held accountable and you need to turn yourself in and
(16:21):
to go through the pastor to get a hold of
law enforcement or however, I've heard multiple different ways about
how it got too law enforcement, the fact that he
confided in his father, then the father turned in his
own son. I can't imagine how difficult that is as
a parent. But at the same time, I agree, and
(16:44):
you know, it's a difficult situation to be in. And
I know people are like, well did they get the
hundred thousand dollars reward? How about guarantee you that father
does not care about that hundred thousand dollar reward because
more than one family was destroyed that day, you know
the shooters. You know, not only is Charlie Kirk Samley destroyed,
but so is the shooters. You know, their lives will
(17:05):
that will be the same. The father's life will never
be the same.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I mean, he's got two younger brothers. I don't know
how you send them back to school or around the
neighborhood or anything. I mean, you're you are not overstating
that more than one family was destroyed that day, no
doubt about it. And you know what's so crazy. Let's
just take the father right, So he sees this photograph,
(17:32):
he knows his child well. He also knows teachers are
going to recognizing friends, are going to recognizing neighbors, are
going to recognizing other family members, cousins, aunts, uncles, They're
going to recognize him. In one way. If you can
get to him, you may save his life. Because I
(17:53):
thought he may go somewhere and take his own lot.
But he and his dad connected for and I think
that probably saved his life. Now I agree, he's got
an answer for what he did. But these parents sometimes
try to protect thinking I can insulate everybody knows. Everybody
(18:14):
already knows they're seeing the same thing you're seeing.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
You know, it's I had the same thoughts you did
on that. I thought for sure, when they would catch
the shooter, they would find the shooter, but there would
be death by suicide with an explanation for why they
did it, or maybe not even leave an explanation, just
leaving for pure mystery. That's what I was thinking was
going to happen. But I agree with you. I think
(18:41):
the father realizing and knowing, but at least having that
much of a relationship with a son to be able
to talk to him, to get him to confide in them,
to admit to what had happened, but then doing the
right thing and having him turned in to authorities. I
do think that saved his life. It's a terrible, unfortunate situation,
(19:03):
but I agree with what my father did.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
As devastating, as unbearable as that has to be. But
I mean, I just think in that moment, you have
very few options if your son is going to survive. Now,
you know one thing that just drives me crazy. You
and I talked about both attempts on President Trump's life,
(19:30):
the one where he's given the speech and the shooters
on the roof. I mean, a forty dollars drone would
have signaled that person was there. I do not understand
why drones are not being used, even by campus police.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I completely agree with you that I think the drones
could definitely help. But what I've found in both of
those situations just as lack of physical security as well.
I mean, he only had six campus police officers, he
only had his personal security attachment that was around him,
but there was nothing to expand that out. And I
think if you're going to have a large crowd of
(20:06):
a major figure such as him, who brings in thousands
of people, I mean, he was a well known public figure,
why they wouldn't have more beefed up security. I think
it's just to the point now where you're gonna have
big events, you have to have metal detectors. But again,
you know, the lack of security is the issue, and
(20:29):
you know that was the same thing that happened in Butler, Pennsylvania. Yeah,
there was some secret service and there was some local
law enforcement, but there wasn't enough and they didn't they
you know, some steps were skipped, as you know now
that they've actually you know, put some people on suspension
and things like that. But you know, in this case,
they had they had nothing. They had nothing on the roof,
they had nothing security in the high ground, they had
(20:50):
no funnel system to create to have people go through magnetometers.
There's no reason why the campus police only had six
people there. And if it's not the campus police is
issue that you know. I do believe that the security
detail for Charlie Kirk could have fired off duty police
officers to work the event, and you know, maybe they
didn't take the threat level serious enough, but they definitely
(21:14):
could have taken a lot more countermeasures to secure the venue.
And I just think that's the way it needs to
go in the future. That any major public figure is
going to go and do any type of public speaking
in the open like that, you have to take the
necessary steps to secure it and make sure that you're safe.
But it's not just the principle itself that needs to
be safe. It's all persons that show up to the
(21:36):
event need to know that they're going to be safe
as well.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
There's been two attempts on President Trump's life, two congressmen
have been killed, Charlie Kirk has now been killed, There's
been other events that, to me, you just can't ignore.
There's a trend right now period. Every threat needs to
(22:02):
be taken seriously.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I think it's no longer just air coming out of
somebody's mouth. I think there's a lot of ill intent
behind those words and people are actually acting on it,
and it's now time that we need to counteract that
and prevent it the best that we can. You know,
it's I don't really understand just because you disagree with
(22:24):
somebody on the other side, whether it's politics or religion,
or sex and gender, whatever those hot topics are, you
can have a difference of opinion. It doesn't mean that
that person needs to lose their life over it. And
I find it utterly disgusting. I do. I find it
to be utterly disgusting that people were celebrating this man
(22:46):
losing his life for going out and having talks with people.
He's making you aware, he's allowing you a platform to speak,
and I don't agree with people celebrating that. I find
it to be the most disgusting thing. And maybe social
media these days, and you know, people are hiding behind
us that the keyboard and their phones and you know,
(23:08):
feel like they can just post whatever they want whenever
they want and not realize the reapercussions that come with it.
But to the hate and the vile, it's disgusting. I
think a lot of people need to find that moral
compass and figure out who they are and where they're
lacking in their own lives to be able to go
and celebrate. To me, I would be just upset if
(23:29):
it was somebody on the complete other side of this.
You know, nobody should ever lose their life first speaking
and talking and what is a constitutional right?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I don't care who it is. I'll be very clear.
I don't care what religion, what sexual orientation, I don't
care what the speech is. Give it. I will stand
there and be a champion for you to be able
to say whatever it is. And that's why this is
(24:01):
not a political show. This is about a murder that
a whole lot of people witnessed in person and a
whole lot more witnessed online. So it doesn't matter if
you're a fan. There's an old saying in you know,
when we did our trauma training, it says, kill one
(24:24):
fright in a thousand. Well, it's almost like if they're
trying to silence somebody, if they're trying to silence anybody,
it's not okay. It's not okay. And again, political assassinations
nothing new, y'all. I just listed the ones in my lifetime,
but that ain't the only ones. And you know, if
(24:47):
this is something that you think should be celebrated, who
is on your list? Who is it you admire, who
is it you want to listen to talk? If they
had been assassinated, how would you feel, you.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Know, at the end of the day too, it's like
you might silence that one particular person, but you you
open up the voice for so many others. And I
think in this particular case, and I've heard this many
a time since, you may have taken out the Charlie Kirk,
but you just created thousands upon thousands of new Charlie Kirks,
you know. And that's the way it works on both sides.
And again, that moral compass needs to need to come
(25:25):
into play at some point. People need to really find
out who they are and what they believe in or
find you know, their religion or their peace or whatever
it is. But at the end of the day, killing
anybody else is just it's disgusting. But the celebrated is
just as bad, you know. And you know, another topic
two I'd kind of like to bring up, if you
don't mind, Eryl, is I think it's I think it's
(25:48):
very dangerous with some of these people that are coming
out that are constantly on these conspiracy theories of who
did what and how they did it, and you know,
analyzing vis and saying well look at this here and
look at this there. I mean, I saw one earlier
today they're like, oh, look at this person behind him
and off to the side, And you know, you have
(26:11):
to have some sort of common sense into what they're
trying to put out there for their clickbaits or whatever
they're doing. You know, it's nobody's reviewed what the autopsy
as there was an autopsy, I guarantee you they obviously
went and some pathologists reviewed where the entringe agent. That's
(26:32):
part of the homicide file. So someone obviously did that.
You know, they're they're just going on with what they
think and what they believe, and they're really not They
have no facts, they have no experience, and what they're
saying is so much garbage, and they're just polluting people's minds.
So you're already taking a bad situation and now you're
putting gasoline on it, making it even worse. And I
(26:54):
think that's a very dangerous road that we're going on.
I don't know how many times you've seen it in
the last week of just the amount of just.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
God, I'll give you one, this is my favorite. He
had to be an expert, right, that's the first one,
complete trash. Then the next group he didn't know what
he was doing, but look at the guy behind Charlie
giving him hand signals. Okay, hold on a minute, Hold
on a minute. I'm gonna stand behind the victim and
(27:27):
I'm telling you that boy don't know how to shoot,
but I'm going to I'm going to give him the
hand signal when to go and pray he don't hit me.
Get out of here.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Sense if you know so what's going to fire a
shot and you're that close to you really trust that person? Like,
do I really know how well you shoot from a
couple hundred yards away? No shot at no chance is
that ever going to happen? And and and if I
may speak on this too, I know a lot of
people are giving that the person directly behind him. And
(28:00):
then there's the person in the white hat who adjusted
his hat and scratched his face. They're trying to be like, oh,
he's wiggling on his ear and giving signals. There's another
video from behind the person with the white hat, and
you can see him adjust his hat and then he
scratched his face. But if you watch videos for a
few minutes, he acted scratched his face a few times
throughout that so it wasn't like that was the only
time he scratched his face. The other thing is is
(28:21):
the personal security guard that was directly behind selling Kirk,
that was the one that moved up and started touching
his arm. We don't know what he's come out yet,
and said, we don't know exactly what he saw. What
I do know is that security personnels, they all wearing
the earpiece, are communicating. So sometimes you give handed arm
signals to signify signal to the others out there, I'm good,
(28:44):
where I'm at, or waybe they saw something on the
rooftop and he had already signaled to somebody else and
he steps forward just point to his arm to say, hey,
armed person rooftop, you don't know what that is. They
have to operate in a way that isn't going to
freak out the entire public. I guarantee you that that
(29:06):
guy standing behind Charlie Kirk knew that that was a
shooter on that roof Tarli Kirk would have been off
that stage so fast he.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Would have tackled him off that chair exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
And you know they give go to concerts, go to
live events and watch you will see these personnel. The
security personnel will communicate with handed arm signals. That is
a common practice and personal security. So for them to
go out there and be like, oh, he's signaling for
the shooter. Okay, man, do you really want to be
three feet away from the guy shooting two hundred yards? Agay?
Speaker 1 (29:41):
When he's got him locked is when he goes not
your hand signal, because if you watch Charlie Kirk, he
leans up at one point. I don't know if he's
reaching for I don't remember if he's reaching for the
microphone or if he's putting something down like he moves.
So the shooter's waiting on him to get he needs
him to be before he makes that shot. Period into story.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
You know, the other part in regards to the shooter
talking about him if he was a professional not a professional. Again,
nowhere throughout my training or any of the training of
those that I know that have done it, done it
in world world experience, has done it in combat things
like that. Were you ever trained outside of the centro mask?
You know? And then I've heard people be like, well
(30:26):
two hundred yards, you know, two hundred yards is such
a crazy shot. Not with a scope, it's not a
crazy shot. And not to mention. Then people are like
what about the angle. So for those that aren't familiar
with it, angle really doesn't come into play until you're
more than thirty degrees. So for a two hundred yard shot,
(30:46):
looking you know, second story, third story, and you're shooting there,
most people will what we refer to as zeroing in
your rifle, So you are dialing it in at a
certain distance. Right, So let's say most people will do
one hundred yards. Some might be further than that, but
we'll just do one hundred yards. It's a two hundred
yard shot. The most you're going to be off of
(31:08):
your target is about an inch, maybe a little more,
maybe an inch and a half at most, you know,
because of the distance and where you're zeroed at. So
for those that sit there and say, you know, this
is such a difficult shot and had to be a professional,
he had to aim for the karate I guarantee that
wasn't what happened. It just needs to stop, and they
(31:29):
need to wait for the official information. But my goodness,
why don't why don't we wait for the corners report
to come out that'll talk about the entrance and exit wound.
Very well could have hit something on him and it
ricocheted up. We don't really know yet, but we will
know in time. And let the investigators work. But stop
(31:49):
with this propaganda and for clicks on social media putting
out all this false information. Everything's a conspiracy. I might
have heard it all from this was Israel all the
way to professional hits to It needs to stop. There's
a family out there that's suffering right now, and there's
so much bologna out there. About ninety percent of what
I've heard is just nonsense.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
And let's bragg a law enforcement, not only for the
federal government. Was there a sixteen minute response time? They
had seven thousand tips that first day, seven thousand to
wade through while they have an active scene, while they
have an active man hunt, and local and state and
(32:35):
federal it appears to me worked seamlessly together.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
They did an amazing job. I mean that a sixteen
minute response time the federal government that's not even on
scene is impressive. I don't think they've responded that's probably
since nine to eleven. That's pretty incredible to be on
there that quickly after a shooting like this. I thought
they did it very good job. The only thing I
(33:02):
wish they would have done a little bit cleaner was
not come out and say they got the shooter right
out of the gate or even later on that day.
I think they I wish they would have waited until
they knew that they had everything correct before they announced
that they had somebody in custody, as unfortunately they give
us false hoaps twice on that. That'd be about the
only flaw I would find Other than that. I think
they all worked wonderfully together with the communications to you know, God,
(33:29):
going through all the information, all the tips, and getting
to the bottom of it so quickly. For public safety
as well. I thought they did an incredible.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Job me too. And you know, I didn't know if
they were saying that because there was somebody that they
wanted to go back to social media, see it wasn't me.
I didn't know if they were trying to draw somebody
out or if that was, you know, to kind of
jumping the gun. I didn't know which it was.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Well, I actually first thought when they had somebody and
then they released them, and then there's another person interviewed,
and really I started to think at that point that
there's more than one person potentially involved in and I
still feel that there may have been some people that
knew that this was coming, which is why maybe he
had the confidence to go on Discord and speak about
(34:15):
the things that he did. But when I first heard
about the two people they had in custody and let
them go, they were released, it's because I thought that
maybe they were a diversion for the actual shooter to
get away.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Got you, got you? Okay? So we both thought it
was a play. We didn't know which one.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
We didn't know which one, and I thought maybe into
the panic and if they acted strange and odd, it
would have drawt It would draw police's attention to them,
while the real suspect, you know, escapes out the back,
so to speak.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Okay, I agree with you about conspiracy theorists, but this
is a fact based show, so I'm going to ask
you factually and again, Jim Raffman, with your background as
a scene good service agent, are you concerned that this
young man did some research and decided he was going
(35:07):
to be an assassin? And do you think there's other
young people that are out there researching and platinum planning.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
I wish there wasn't, but I strongly feel that there's
people out there that are wanting to do harm to
others that are out there now maybe getting their inspiration
from this, that are going to try to attack more
people in the future. I pray that it does not happen,
but I fear that's the times that we live in,
and I think people are now starting to become very
(35:39):
desperate who either get attention or to draw attention, whether
it comes from the right ways of doing it or
the wrong way of doing it. So I think the
threat is very real, and I think for everyone out
there that's protecting a whether it's a public figure, a politician,
anyone of status, basically, I think they really need to
(36:02):
step up their security gain to prevent it. You know,
we know the assassination that have happened. What we don't
know is how many assassination attempts that have been diverted
or we're not able to go through because security was
beefed up at the right places at the right time.
So I think it's time for everybody to that's out
(36:22):
there in this world providing protection at any capacity, to
take the threat seriously and spend a little bit more
time beefing up your security to ensure that all parties
are safe, not just for the protectee. But for all
the people that come to watch too. I mean, it's unfortunate.
There are children, there are adults, There are Kyle Jade
(36:43):
students that all witnessed what happened last week and the
amount of ETSD that's going to live in them forever.
Their lives were forever changed, and we need to prevent
this as much assumingly possible.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Well, if it is okay with you, mister rev Man,
I am going to end with some good news. I
want to talk about your son, y'all. Let me tell
you something, Ethan Rathman. I have been able to watch
him for years. He is, I would just say, a
shooting star in the world of baseball. He just completed
(37:22):
an event where his team won the championship, and I
know for a fact many Major league teams are looking
at him.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Now.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I don't want to throw my own, you know, fanship
in the circle, but I would love to be able
to go watch him in person in Atlanta. So braves
Ethan Rathman. But you know, Jim, honestly, I mean congratulations
for everything that he has accomplished. He has worked hard.
There has been no off days forget off season, y'all.
(37:55):
That child hadn't taken a day off, and I just
can't wait to celebrate when he gets drafted.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Thank you so very much for saying that he is.
He has absolutely worked his butt off. We've been blessed
with great coaches, great teammates and parents, you know, instructors
along the way. He has an amazing advisor that's helping
him through this process. We're very fortunate. You know, he
signs a University of Miami soon. You know, they really
(38:24):
believed in him when he was even younger than this,
and he fell in love with the school and more
importantly the coaches and the staff and what University of
Miami brings. So he'll be signing there with them in November.
But he's a he's a very much a legitimate prospect
to get drafted next July. And I know you're a
major Brains fan, which is great. We are open to
(38:45):
all any and all teams obviously that are willing to
believe in him and give him a shot. I'm very
very confident he's going to get that shot here in
a few months.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Well, he'll find him a home. There's no doubt. He's
got too much talent. But again, congratulations to you.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Thank you so very much. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
All Right, y'all, I'm going to end Zone seven the
way that I always do with a quote. I'm a
religious person in the most unqualified sense of the word,
but I can say emphatically that there is more moral validity,
an honest searching for values of life on campuses today
(39:25):
than can be found in our churches. CORRETTA Scott King,
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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