This week on Crime Roundup, Sheryl McCollum and Joshua Schiffer unpack the devastating double homicide at Devil’s Den State Park in Arkansas. They examine how predators gain access to children, the red flags that went unheeded, and why state parks can serve as both sanctuaries and stages for violence. With a mix of legal insight and forensic perspective, Sheryl and Joshua explore the psychological, systemic and legal failures behind a crime that stunned the country.
Highlights:
- (0:00) Welcome to Crime Roundup with Sheryl McCollum and Joshua Schiffer
- (2:00) “This was planned.” Devil’s Den and predators in isolated spaces
- (5:15) A killer with access to children and a long list of ignored warnings
- (6:45) Hidden plates, premeditation, and chilling prep
- (8:00) Death penalty or mental illness? The defense dilemma
- (10:30) "There’s no such thing as a part-time child predator”
- (12:15) How predators pass as mentors and slip through school systems
- (14:45) Red flags don’t matter—until they do
- (16:30) Wrapping up: outrage, action, and what comes next
About the Hosts
Joshua Schiffer is a veteran trial attorney and one of the Southeast’s most respected legal voices. He is a founding partner at ChancoSchiffer P.C., where he has litigated high-stakes criminal, civil rights, and personal injury cases for over two decades. Known for his bold courtroom presence and ability to clearly explain complex legal issues, Schiffer is a frequent media contributor and fearless advocate for accountability.
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award-winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook, Cold Case: Pathways to Justice and the founder of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a national nonprofit that unites universities, law enforcement, and students to work on unsolved homicides and missing persons cases.
🎧 Want more from Sheryl?
Catch her every Wednesday on Zone 7, where she doesn’t just talk cold cases—she works them. She’s joined by fellow forensic pros and criminal justice insiders for conversations straight from active investigations. Then on Mondays, tune in to Pathology with Dr. Priya, where the physical evidence takes center stage—because every body tells a story.
📢 If you enjoyed this episode, follow Crime Roundup on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review to help others find the show. Have a case suggestion? Email coldcase2004@gmail.com or connect with the hosts on social:
- Sheryl on X: @ColdCaseTips
- Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
- Joshua on X & Instagram: @lawyerschiff
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to crime around up. I am. I don't even
know if I can contain how excited I am. Joshua Schieffer,
how are you, honey, I'm good.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It is going to be a week. We got a
couple of big ones to cover tonight.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Child, It's a week. But you know, this is one
of the best parts of my week. And I have
to say that, even though the topics are rough and
sad and sometimes horrifying, you are one of the most
uplifting people. Oh yes, and I just love your take
on it. I love that you love your cat. I
(00:47):
love that you love your child.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I love that you.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Love your job. And it just makes a big difference.
It really does.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And I really appreciate that. And the honor is online.
You know what a fan I am. And really it's
because Carl Jung. Follow your bliss. Carl Jung is a
psychologist from one hundred years ago, one of the fathers
of psychology, and he said, follow your bless and really
you see success and happiness there. True crime is kind
(01:15):
of my blive. This is what I've gone into, and
this is the stuff that I'm interested in. And it's
like you, it's the love of the system show like.
It's why this conversation means so much to me is
because we come at this from some different angles and perspectives.
But it's the love of the system and the belief
that our system is the best one in the universe
(01:36):
and it gets better. It's got problems, nothing's perfect, but
we're we're working hard and good people get together and
work hard and make things better for everybody.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, it may not be perfect, but it is the
best one out there.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Oh yes, oh yes, all right, it needs to be strong.
We got we got, we got a big one. Let
you want to start with just a terrifying idea of
a young man in our communities with warnings.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Killing people, killing people premeditated. This was planned, he took
action to make sure he was going to get away
with this. And the fact that again because I have
said it before, the selection of a state park. So
many perpetrators want to hide out in a state park,
(02:32):
want to maneuver in a state park. It is page one,
But I got to tell you my family, we love
a state park. Honey.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Amen, My brother is that guy that has the window
you can't see through because all of the stickers. Yes, yes,
state parks are one of those things that I get
angry when people talk about taxes and things to come,
and I'm really disappointed at our state take a hit
because the value provided to millions of average citizens is
(03:07):
undenowped and it's something other countries don't have. Many do
have national park systems, but really we are blessed with
our natural.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Party, national parks, state parks, national parks. It's nature's library.
You can experience so many things, lakes and rivers and
wildlife and trees and plants, and you've got people there
that are wanting to show you. I mean that ranger
will walk with you, put on classes, experience this unbelievable
(03:41):
terrain with you. It is remarkable. And I'm telling you myself,
more off the beaten path, the better.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah. Oh that there's a whole discussion about how luxury
and what luxury isn't Luxury is trending towards isolation because
it's much more difficult to achieve. And the dream is
the now. Instead of the penthouse in the city, it
is the wyoming ranch without a house in the distance,
(04:15):
and that is something that is unbelievably rare and difficult
and expensive. I've looked at them. I've used to train
at Jerry Spence's which is out there and Whyo. It's amazing,
but the land costs are astronomical. And to have these
resources like the Tetons, like our state parks. George's got
(04:37):
a fantastic state park community. Our governors have been good
stewards of our state parks and they're just so important.
And that's what I guess. It terrifies people now to
think about them being the site of some really horrific crimes.
And that's exactly what we've got here. And for those
(04:58):
that haven't been following, we're talking about the Washington County
murder of two wonderful parents at the Devil's Den State
Park in Arkansas, and then the immediate pretty much apprehension
of a young man who has made an admission, Andrew
(05:18):
James McCann. And what's happened is he has admitted to
the killing, and it turns out he was terrifyingly warned
about during his multiple prior positions as an educator for kids.
Two little children witnessed all.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Of this, and I believe they were the target. I
said right out of the gate, he will have child
porn on every device he has I see.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I know that the children's medical condition is not something
that's getting really talked about except that they're in the
care of the family, and that's to protect everybody involved.
We are talking about children. It may behoove, given the
strength of the state's case with the existing crimes, to
(06:17):
not pursue additional investigation and such in the best interest
of justice and these little kids. But yeah, there's a possibility,
certainly of some CSM materials being out there with this guy.
But I don't know. I think there's something much deeper
(06:40):
than that. I don't see this as being that kind
of crime necessary. But you know, we know very little,
and that's part of the scary.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Part that is scary. But here's what we do know.
He covered his license plate, that was done prior. He
wore clothes that I believe that he thought was covert,
he had a weapon. All of those things were done
before the murders. Yeah, this family just happened to be there.
(07:12):
This wasn't something that was predetermined. They weren't meeting up
or anything. He didn't know them.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
The randomness of the victim is as frightening as the
planning and malice. A forethought, because clearly he had an
intention to do something bad that evening, right, and it
was just this family fit, whatever the stimulus was, and
(07:41):
that I think answering that question, we're very likely never
going to really know the answer because I imagine, given
the strength of the state's case, the real discussion is
is this going to be a DP which is certainly
just five Many people will be adamant that this is
(08:03):
the exact kind of case similar to Coburger, where that
is why we have the death penalty, and then there
will be people saying no, given whatever may be wrong
with this man's mentality, and I'm being careful there to not,
(08:24):
you know, say anything specifically. I have my own gumshoe
detective belief about some mental health defenses that may play
a role. The death penalty may not be appropriate. Life
without parole is a pretty gimme offer.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
And Josh, you just brought up a great point because
I'm going to tell you there is zero shot that
his family and friends and co workers did not see
this transformation from the photographs alone.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Oh yeah, and you don't miss this behavior.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Don't miss it. He looks like somebody that is going
to do this if you were hiring somebody to play
an actor in a movie, he'll do. He looks the part.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I'll say this, and it's it's hard to, you know,
be a judge of just purely his physical look, even
though it's something. Trust me. Some of defense attorneys say
they've got radar for certain charges, notably anything involved in sex,
and it's like, you see the client, You're like, but
I know what that guy's here for, And certainly it
(09:33):
comforts us to be like, well, he looks like someone
that would do. But what I'm more discussing is what
are we going to discover about prior bad acts that,
for whatever reason never reached an appropriate intervention from somebody.
Excellent point, figure out whose ball got cha? Then that
(09:54):
it's the Diddy case all over again. Where did he?
Why'd they prosecute him? Will be? Has the police really
boned the clear beating on video?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
And it looked awful and people had to do something,
and the FEDS got told, hey, Feds, if it ain't you,
he gets away with everything. That kind of ethic fits
in here to some degree.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
I often say, there's no such thing as a part
time serial killer. There's no such thing as a part
time child predator. And this is what I mean. Think
of anything that you feel like you're almost obsessed with,
whether it's a college football team or your job, or
(10:44):
planning a wedding, it's what you do. There are people
they paint their face, they buy uniforms, they plan their
social calendar around college football. Walt and myself got married
during a bye week because we knew there would be
some family members that would not come.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
First thing on every wedding player's calendar is the UJA
home schedule, right on, right on. That's the way it is.
Go dogs, yes, And so it ain't just George.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
It's not just Georgia. And you know, for this type
of predator, to me, what they're going to find is
he no longer could hide it, he could no longer
stop it. It might have started with some pictures and
then went to videos, and then went to downloading videos,
then went to driving around to see if he could
(11:38):
find children alone and talking to them and kind of
flirting with them and then tickling them. Because again, none
of these things are necessarily illegal. But then you have
a young man that looks like he was a high
school football player. He looks more like a coach. What
does he do? He gets a job where he's surrounded
(11:58):
by children, and that is not uncommon, whether it's boy scouts,
a coach, a teacher, a mall sanna.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And it's such a terrific stereotype because then you've got
the men that are legitimately rich, so horrible, and it's like,
are you so horrible? I can't tell you how important
having male teachers as a young person agreed for appropriate
societal male development.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Josh, It's the same thing to me when a woman
accuses someone of rape and she's lying, Oh yeah, no,
you're hurting everybody. Everything's coming after you, And this is
the same thing. There's no question my children in elementary
school did not have a male teacher, but there was
one down the hall. Do you know he was a
(12:47):
mentor to them.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Oh oh.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
They saw him as this great guy, you know, comforting,
He was a secure place, he was fun.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It's part of the discussion about prison pipeline and about
these young people of male and female that see the
power structure, especially in concentrated urban school zones where there's
demographic challenges. Same in some rural zones where we are
literally lining these kids up for you exist in this
(13:17):
authoritarian system and it's stronger and more consistent than what
they have at home due to whatever reason right And unfortunately,
when they leave childhood, some of them are naturally drawn
to you know that it's gross when you think about
(13:39):
but we all see it. We all see it.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Well, it just goes down to that thing, you know,
one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
It's one of the great fears of when your kid
grows up. And I'm going through it right now, where
your kid's now a bigger fish going to a fish bowl. Now,
fish bowl is big. I've read presented people at that
fish bowl. And you know, I'm a dad and I
try super, super super hard to not be crazy dad,
(14:07):
but you know, you kind of got to be crazy
dead because it's part of being a dad. But you know,
it's it's it's an interesting world to be in right now,
and this case hits me in a bunch of scary
ways because going to national parks is something that families
have enjoyed, you know, long before I was ever born. Man,
half the signs that are up were carved when my
(14:30):
grandfather was you know, a kid. Whether these these parks
go back. You look at Teddy Roosevelt, and you look
at the establishment of the parks. It's such an important
part of America. And we have this young man who
we're going to discover that there were lots of red flags,
flashing lights, warning signs that for a totality of circumstances,
(14:56):
cacophony of crapulence. No one and went all right, let's
dig a little bit deeper here, because there's there's almost
no way he got to his age and to taking
an action so planned, so violent, so escalated from anything
he'd been involved with, without those signs being out there previously.
(15:17):
And you know the person i'd want to talk about it,
My brother is the head of a state's sex offender program,
and I'd love to pick his brain on that.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Remind me to do that, I will, absolutely because that
would be a great follow up.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
But uh, the brain of the offender becomes super interesting
because we can all kind of agree. Is this guy sick? Yeah,
I'm not saying not culpable. I'm not saying don't punish him.
I'm not saying he's not guilty. But is he sick? Yes, yes,
he is. He committed an act that is so Abharan
(15:51):
of the human condition that is so grossly disgusting and
removed from even the mere vestiges of humanity, violation and
betrayal of all of our ethics. He did that with
planning a fourth thought, knowing, because there's nothing to indicate
he was incompetent and crazy. He had jobs as a teacher,
(16:14):
he clearly spoke and read the English language fluently. He
arguably has a degree. So he's not somebody where we
see someone on the street and go, well, there's a
crazy person. But he's certainly, in my mind, sick because
(16:34):
he chose to take these Now, why is he sick,
How is he sick, and what's the effect of his
sick that's the analysis, and that's where the culpability determination
is going to be made because factually, thankfully, there's no
who done it, there's no mystery. The families have that closure,
(16:54):
unlike some of the other terrible cases that are out there.
That terrifying little bit with that baby dropped off on
the lawner. Look, it was awful, horrible, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
And again he's been able to get job at a job,
at a job, at your job, at schools. It seems
like there's no oversight there either, like it's it is frightening. Well, listen,
my friend, I appreciate you, I love you, and it's
hard for me to stop these conversations and keep on light.
(17:29):
I can see I can see my husband laughing over there, going, oh,
she can talk, but I can't to you. He is
he's hungry, but I do. I love you, and I
can't wait till next week. But we're going to keep
an eye on this story and we're going to talk
about those red flags and how we need to make
sure they're addressed.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Absolutely, love you too. Love you audience, Thank you so
much for listening, and we will see you next week
on the Crime Round though,
Welcome to crime around up. I am. I don't even
know if I can contain how excited I am. Joshua Schieffer,
how are you, honey, I'm good.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It is going to be a week. We got a
couple of big ones to cover tonight.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Child, It's a week. But you know, this is one
of the best parts of my week. And I have
to say that, even though the topics are rough and
sad and sometimes horrifying, you are one of the most
uplifting people. Oh yes, and I just love your take
on it. I love that you love your cat. I
(00:47):
love that you love your child.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I love that you.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Love your job. And it just makes a big difference.
It really does.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And I really appreciate that. And the honor is online.
You know what a fan I am. And really it's
because Carl Jung. Follow your bliss. Carl Jung is a
psychologist from one hundred years ago, one of the fathers
of psychology, and he said, follow your bless and really
you see success and happiness there. True crime is kind
(01:15):
of my blive. This is what I've gone into, and
this is the stuff that I'm interested in. And it's
like you, it's the love of the system show like.
It's why this conversation means so much to me is
because we come at this from some different angles and perspectives.
But it's the love of the system and the belief
that our system is the best one in the universe
(01:36):
and it gets better. It's got problems, nothing's perfect, but
we're we're working hard and good people get together and
work hard and make things better for everybody.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, it may not be perfect, but it is the
best one out there.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Oh yes, oh yes, all right, it needs to be strong.
We got we got, we got a big one. Let
you want to start with just a terrifying idea of
a young man in our communities with warnings.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Killing people, killing people premeditated. This was planned, he took
action to make sure he was going to get away
with this. And the fact that again because I have
said it before, the selection of a state park. So
many perpetrators want to hide out in a state park,
(02:32):
want to maneuver in a state park. It is page one,
But I got to tell you my family, we love
a state park. Honey.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Amen, My brother is that guy that has the window
you can't see through because all of the stickers. Yes, yes,
state parks are one of those things that I get
angry when people talk about taxes and things to come,
and I'm really disappointed at our state take a hit
because the value provided to millions of average citizens is
(03:07):
undenowped and it's something other countries don't have. Many do
have national park systems, but really we are blessed with
our natural.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Party, national parks, state parks, national parks. It's nature's library.
You can experience so many things, lakes and rivers and
wildlife and trees and plants, and you've got people there
that are wanting to show you. I mean that ranger
will walk with you, put on classes, experience this unbelievable
(03:41):
terrain with you. It is remarkable. And I'm telling you myself,
more off the beaten path, the better.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah. Oh that there's a whole discussion about how luxury
and what luxury isn't Luxury is trending towards isolation because
it's much more difficult to achieve. And the dream is
the now. Instead of the penthouse in the city, it
is the wyoming ranch without a house in the distance,
(04:15):
and that is something that is unbelievably rare and difficult
and expensive. I've looked at them. I've used to train
at Jerry Spence's which is out there and Whyo. It's amazing,
but the land costs are astronomical. And to have these
resources like the Tetons, like our state parks. George's got
(04:37):
a fantastic state park community. Our governors have been good
stewards of our state parks and they're just so important.
And that's what I guess. It terrifies people now to
think about them being the site of some really horrific crimes.
And that's exactly what we've got here. And for those
(04:58):
that haven't been following, we're talking about the Washington County
murder of two wonderful parents at the Devil's Den State
Park in Arkansas, and then the immediate pretty much apprehension
of a young man who has made an admission, Andrew
(05:18):
James McCann. And what's happened is he has admitted to
the killing, and it turns out he was terrifyingly warned
about during his multiple prior positions as an educator for kids.
Two little children witnessed all.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Of this, and I believe they were the target. I
said right out of the gate, he will have child
porn on every device he has I see.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I know that the children's medical condition is not something
that's getting really talked about except that they're in the
care of the family, and that's to protect everybody involved.
We are talking about children. It may behoove, given the
strength of the state's case with the existing crimes, to
(06:17):
not pursue additional investigation and such in the best interest
of justice and these little kids. But yeah, there's a possibility,
certainly of some CSM materials being out there with this guy.
But I don't know. I think there's something much deeper
(06:40):
than that. I don't see this as being that kind
of crime necessary. But you know, we know very little,
and that's part of the scary.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Part that is scary. But here's what we do know.
He covered his license plate, that was done prior. He
wore clothes that I believe that he thought was covert,
he had a weapon. All of those things were done
before the murders. Yeah, this family just happened to be there.
(07:12):
This wasn't something that was predetermined. They weren't meeting up
or anything. He didn't know them.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
The randomness of the victim is as frightening as the
planning and malice. A forethought, because clearly he had an
intention to do something bad that evening, right, and it
was just this family fit, whatever the stimulus was, and
(07:41):
that I think answering that question, we're very likely never
going to really know the answer because I imagine, given
the strength of the state's case, the real discussion is
is this going to be a DP which is certainly
just five Many people will be adamant that this is
(08:03):
the exact kind of case similar to Coburger, where that
is why we have the death penalty, and then there
will be people saying no, given whatever may be wrong
with this man's mentality, and I'm being careful there to not,
(08:24):
you know, say anything specifically. I have my own gumshoe
detective belief about some mental health defenses that may play
a role. The death penalty may not be appropriate. Life
without parole is a pretty gimme offer.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
And Josh, you just brought up a great point because
I'm going to tell you there is zero shot that
his family and friends and co workers did not see
this transformation from the photographs alone.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Oh yeah, and you don't miss this behavior.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Don't miss it. He looks like somebody that is going
to do this if you were hiring somebody to play
an actor in a movie, he'll do. He looks the part.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I'll say this, and it's it's hard to, you know,
be a judge of just purely his physical look, even
though it's something. Trust me. Some of defense attorneys say
they've got radar for certain charges, notably anything involved in sex,
and it's like, you see the client, You're like, but
I know what that guy's here for, And certainly it
(09:33):
comforts us to be like, well, he looks like someone
that would do. But what I'm more discussing is what
are we going to discover about prior bad acts that,
for whatever reason never reached an appropriate intervention from somebody.
Excellent point, figure out whose ball got cha? Then that
(09:54):
it's the Diddy case all over again. Where did he?
Why'd they prosecute him? Will be? Has the police really
boned the clear beating on video?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
And it looked awful and people had to do something,
and the FEDS got told, hey, Feds, if it ain't you,
he gets away with everything. That kind of ethic fits
in here to some degree.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
I often say, there's no such thing as a part
time serial killer. There's no such thing as a part
time child predator. And this is what I mean. Think
of anything that you feel like you're almost obsessed with,
whether it's a college football team or your job, or
(10:44):
planning a wedding, it's what you do. There are people
they paint their face, they buy uniforms, they plan their
social calendar around college football. Walt and myself got married
during a bye week because we knew there would be
some family members that would not come.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
First thing on every wedding player's calendar is the UJA
home schedule, right on, right on. That's the way it is.
Go dogs, yes, And so it ain't just George.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
It's not just Georgia. And you know, for this type
of predator, to me, what they're going to find is
he no longer could hide it, he could no longer
stop it. It might have started with some pictures and
then went to videos, and then went to downloading videos,
then went to driving around to see if he could
(11:38):
find children alone and talking to them and kind of
flirting with them and then tickling them. Because again, none
of these things are necessarily illegal. But then you have
a young man that looks like he was a high
school football player. He looks more like a coach. What
does he do? He gets a job where he's surrounded
(11:58):
by children, and that is not uncommon, whether it's boy scouts,
a coach, a teacher, a mall sanna.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And it's such a terrific stereotype because then you've got
the men that are legitimately rich, so horrible, and it's like,
are you so horrible? I can't tell you how important
having male teachers as a young person agreed for appropriate
societal male development.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Josh, It's the same thing to me when a woman
accuses someone of rape and she's lying, Oh yeah, no,
you're hurting everybody. Everything's coming after you, And this is
the same thing. There's no question my children in elementary
school did not have a male teacher, but there was
one down the hall. Do you know he was a
(12:47):
mentor to them.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Oh oh.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
They saw him as this great guy, you know, comforting,
He was a secure place, he was fun.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It's part of the discussion about prison pipeline and about
these young people of male and female that see the
power structure, especially in concentrated urban school zones where there's
demographic challenges. Same in some rural zones where we are
literally lining these kids up for you exist in this
(13:17):
authoritarian system and it's stronger and more consistent than what
they have at home due to whatever reason right And unfortunately,
when they leave childhood, some of them are naturally drawn
to you know that it's gross when you think about
(13:39):
but we all see it. We all see it.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Well, it just goes down to that thing, you know,
one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
It's one of the great fears of when your kid
grows up. And I'm going through it right now, where
your kid's now a bigger fish going to a fish bowl. Now,
fish bowl is big. I've read presented people at that
fish bowl. And you know, I'm a dad and I
try super, super super hard to not be crazy dad,
(14:07):
but you know, you kind of got to be crazy
dead because it's part of being a dad. But you know,
it's it's it's an interesting world to be in right now,
and this case hits me in a bunch of scary
ways because going to national parks is something that families
have enjoyed, you know, long before I was ever born. Man,
half the signs that are up were carved when my
(14:30):
grandfather was you know, a kid. Whether these these parks
go back. You look at Teddy Roosevelt, and you look
at the establishment of the parks. It's such an important
part of America. And we have this young man who
we're going to discover that there were lots of red flags,
flashing lights, warning signs that for a totality of circumstances,
(14:56):
cacophony of crapulence. No one and went all right, let's
dig a little bit deeper here, because there's there's almost
no way he got to his age and to taking
an action so planned, so violent, so escalated from anything
he'd been involved with, without those signs being out there previously.
(15:17):
And you know the person i'd want to talk about it,
My brother is the head of a state's sex offender program,
and I'd love to pick his brain on that.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Remind me to do that, I will, absolutely because that
would be a great follow up.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
But uh, the brain of the offender becomes super interesting
because we can all kind of agree. Is this guy sick? Yeah,
I'm not saying not culpable. I'm not saying don't punish him.
I'm not saying he's not guilty. But is he sick? Yes, yes,
he is. He committed an act that is so Abharan
(15:51):
of the human condition that is so grossly disgusting and
removed from even the mere vestiges of humanity, violation and
betrayal of all of our ethics. He did that with
planning a fourth thought, knowing, because there's nothing to indicate
he was incompetent and crazy. He had jobs as a teacher,
(16:14):
he clearly spoke and read the English language fluently. He
arguably has a degree. So he's not somebody where we
see someone on the street and go, well, there's a
crazy person. But he's certainly, in my mind, sick because
(16:34):
he chose to take these Now, why is he sick,
How is he sick, and what's the effect of his
sick that's the analysis, and that's where the culpability determination
is going to be made because factually, thankfully, there's no
who done it, there's no mystery. The families have that closure,
(16:54):
unlike some of the other terrible cases that are out there.
That terrifying little bit with that baby dropped off on
the lawner. Look, it was awful, horrible, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
And again he's been able to get job at a job,
at a job, at your job, at schools. It seems
like there's no oversight there either, like it's it is frightening. Well, listen,
my friend, I appreciate you, I love you, and it's
hard for me to stop these conversations and keep on light.
(17:29):
I can see I can see my husband laughing over there, going, oh,
she can talk, but I can't to you. He is
he's hungry, but I do. I love you, and I
can't wait till next week. But we're going to keep
an eye on this story and we're going to talk
about those red flags and how we need to make
sure they're addressed.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Absolutely, love you too. Love you audience, Thank you so
much for listening, and we will see you next week
on the Crime Round though,
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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