This week on Crime Roundup, Sheryl McCollum and Joshua Schiffer celebrate the life of courtroom legend Gerry Spence, the man who never lost a civil case and built a law school on a Wyoming mountaintop.
They also examine the downfall of a prosecutor whose time in the spotlight proved swagger is not a winning strategy.
Finally, Sheryl shares an update on the Melissa Wolfenbarger case she has worked on for seven years, a mystery that began with human remains in a trash bag and one of the first cases featured on her Zone 7 podcast. Follow the full story in Melissa Wolfenbarger: Norma and Tina Patton | Part 1, the first in a multipart Zone 7 series.
Highlights:
- (0:00) Welcome to Crime Roundup with Sheryl McCollum and Joshua Schiffer
- (1:00) Gerry Spence remembered as the lawyer who never lost a civil case with stories that made him a legend
- (4:00) Behind the scenes of the Trial Lawyers College and why no classroom can match it
- (12:15) “He’s so proud of his story that it’s clear, it’s false”: A prosecutor takes the defense table, his strategy collapses, and the jury wastes no time
- (17:15) Melissa Wolfenbarger update and why Sheryl is staying quiet for now. Follow the full story in Melissa Wolfenbarger: Norma and Tina Patton | Part 1
About the Hosts
Joshua Schiffer is a veteran trial attorney and one of the Southeast’s most respected legal voices. He is a founding partner at ChancoSchiffer P.C., where he has litigated high-stakes criminal, civil rights, and personal injury cases for over two decades. Known for his bold courtroom presence and ability to clearly explain complex legal issues, Schiffer is a frequent media contributor and fearless advocate for accountability.
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award-winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook, Cold Case: Pathways to Justice and the founder of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a national nonprofit that unites universities, law enforcement, and students to work on unsolved homicides and missing persons cases.
🎧 Want more from Sheryl?
Catch her every Wednesday on Zone 7, where she doesn’t just talk cold cases, she works them. She’s joined by fellow forensic pros and criminal justice insiders for conversations straight from active investigations. Then on Mondays, tune in to Pathology with Dr. Priya, where the physical evidence takes center stage.
📢 If you enjoyed this episode, follow Crime Roundup on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review to help others find the show. Have a case suggestion? Email coldcase2004@gmail.com or connect with the hosts on social:
- Sheryl on X: @ColdCaseTips
- Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
- Joshua on X & Instagram: @lawyerschiff
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Crime Round Up.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Joshua Schiffer, What in the world it's like every day?
Me and you just laugh, like, are we going to
ever have, you know, an issue with thinking of a topic.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I wish people could just drop in on some of
the conversations that you and I have, that you and
I have with other people, because it's not like there's
a manual whether we get delivered every morning where it's
the oh, here's what we're going to be covering this
week and next week and here's what's going to happen. No,
this is live right, this is real life unfolding. Yeah,
(00:44):
and it's real stories. You know, it's amazing, you know,
in looking and when you and I are talking about
what we want to talk about, and then we see
this case and boom, there's Cheryl involved with a case
that how many years did it take to get to
Fulton County and it just starts up today.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Starts up today, Yes, sir, and we're going to talk
about that one.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
We also had a huge loss in the legal kind
of universe a name that kind of the gray hairs
will know a little bit more than the younger people
because he was an elderly man and his name's Jerry
Spence with a G.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
He really if you are a.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Fan, which you are of televised and media coverage of
legal he is a great grandfather.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
You know what, Joshua, I'm gonna stop you because I
think we need to do a proper homage to him.
And I'm going to toss it to you because I
saw your post, I saw the pictures.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I know what this person.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Meant to you, and I think you and you alone
should take a moment to honor him and speak about
him and make sure that we know all facets of
him to truly understand what everybody's thinking. So I'm going
to let you have the microphone by yourself and talk
(02:14):
about your friend.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
And he was a friend, and yeah, this is someone
who has met everybody in ninety six years. He was
a lawyer that every lawyer looked at and said, Wow,
that is a powerful advocate. He's one of those guys
or women, and you meet a few of them in
your life that no matter what your persuasion, the moment
(02:38):
they walk in the room, everyone is captured by their presence,
by their zeal for life, by their control of the room.
And it's what made Jerry a legitimate master of trial work.
And we're talking about someone who one of his calling
cards was he hadn't lost a case since the late
(03:02):
nineteen sixties. He never lost a similar word, and he
had tried. When you go back into the first big
cases that were covered by national media starting in the
sixties and seventies, we're talking about Karen Silkwood, we're talking
(03:23):
about the first mass torts. We're talking about Emelda Marcos,
Randy Weaver. Cases that were important not just for lawyers
and people who appreciate law and order and follow crime people.
These are the cases that affected the entire nation. And
Jerry had an ability to synthesize complex issues in a
(03:48):
way that was very approachable, and he was incredibly adept
at reacting and interacting with people on a level that's
just different from most lawyers and absolutely different from the
way lawyers and the legal system worked back in that day.
(04:09):
But more importantly, after winning all those cases, Jerry turned
around and with several other incredible lawyers, psychologists, judges, Judge Rose,
Bill Ackerman, John Nolty who is a famous psychologist, Bill Trine,
they founded this group called the tri Lawyers College out
(04:31):
at Jerry's ranch, which is in one of the most
inhospitable and remote parts of Wyoming Upper Road that you
can't get up most of the year, half the year
a dirt road into a national park that's twenty miles long.
And when you wander around the ranch, the next door
neighbor is the Shoshone People Reservation, the Wind River Reservation,
(04:54):
that movie that came out two three years ago, wind River.
That's where his ranch is. And if you wander away,
you're going to die.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Every year we.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Would have students and people that would have something happen
because of the inhospitability of the land. And what Jerry
did is he invited every year for about three or
four weeks, fifty or so lawyers and about fifty or
so volunteer lawyer teachers. And Jerry had developed a trial
(05:29):
technique and pathway and a toolkit involving the use of psychodrama,
which is a psychological toolkit developed by doctor Moreno. And
it's experiential. You can't teach it. You got to do it,
and you have to do it seriously. So we would
literally self segregate ourselves for three weeks. This is no phone,
(05:52):
there's no cell phones out there, you were out, You
were cut on purpose, and it allowed you the opportunity
to do the self discovery and work on the horse.
Work on yourself, because a ten thousand dollars saddle doesn't
do squad if it's on a nag of a horse
and you can dress it up all you want, doesn't
(06:13):
matter a damn thing if that horse ain't a good horse.
So work on the horse, and you're the horse and
the way. One of the penultimate questions, how do you
tell your client story? If you can't tell your story,
if you don't know your story. And lawyers are so
(06:37):
in many ways broken by the trauma that we deal with.
I think the problem solving is what sends a lot
of people into law school. Just like law enforcement. They
really enjoy that that angle of the service, of service
to others. And Jerry only allowed criminal defense and people
that represented individuals only. No insurance lawyers, no big business,
(07:02):
no government. Well there was public defenders, but you had
to be focused on the person and the process of
his college, which is written about in his books. You
can go read as many books. The Die of a
Country Lawyer as his kind of general biography talks about
the Ranch and the founding of the college. And you
(07:23):
would spend this first week doing psychology psychodramas with well
known psychodramatic leaders in small group settings with people that
I'm still friends with from my class in two thousand
and seven. Then you would spend a week on some
very intense trial skills and building trial skills using the
(07:46):
tools that we learned. And then the third week you
would spend practicing stuff. And that was just to open
the book, because law is like many professions where you
just keep getting better by practicing and experiencing an experiment.
And over twenty something years Jerry built the Ranch and
the Trial Laury's College up until it was kind of
(08:08):
who's who of the best lawyers in the nation when
the media calls me and how do you know that
guy man? We trained at a trial lawyer's college thing
together sixteen years ago. Now it is a college run
by people and personalities, and their personalities of lawyers, and
lawyers are difficult people, and so there have been a
(08:29):
lot of issues with the college. Most recently, the college
kind of split in half a couple of years ago.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
I have lucky that I have very.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Good relations with both haves I'm a former staff member
and elected representative of the students and a very active
person about what we do, which is the fidelity to
this system and using tools to really advocate for people
that need us, and to go tell the stories with
(09:02):
boldness and authenticity and truthfulness, not being afraid of the
outrageous powers, the betrayal that is at the heart of
every trial, not being intimidated, and going forward. And you know,
I can just talk about the name. Just this week,
there was a huge nineteen eighty three case out of
(09:24):
Michigan involving some just abhorrent law enforcement fifty eight million
dollars this six year case. When you talk about the
people doing a wrongful conviction, a lot of those people
have Trial Laura's college training at one level or another.
(09:44):
The biggest truck and tractor litigators who have literally forced
our government to make our transportation systems safer, and that's
Joe Freed one oh one. That's Mike Lieeserman out of Ohio.
When you talk about Rodney King, Rodney King's lawyer, he's
one of the board members. When you talk about the
(10:06):
innocence of the Indiana Seven, that's marn Cheloup. She's major
major lawyer involved. You really do learn from these outrageously
good lawyers who then many of them are invited to
come back and teach the skills. No money, there's no pay,
You pay your own way, like people. It's it's the opportunity,
(10:32):
it's the it's the honor of the invitation to be
with these groups of lawyers. Bj Bernstein, who's a local,
incredibly good lawyer here in Georgia, Nelson Tyrone, Dan Dwatt,
like I can just go on and on with these lawyers.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It's who's who.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, and Jerry's the one that brought them together. And
his passing is a loss, even though he led a life,
he led ten lives. Really just a fascinating person. You know.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
One of the first conversations you and I ever had,
you brought up the ranch, and all I can tell
you is what a legacy I am often just in
awe of such.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
A life well lived.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
And I will tell you his legacy will continue through
all of you.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
And you did a masterful job honoring him.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
So thank you, Josh, thank you so much for the opportunity.
And he really we're going to see a lot of
people write things in the legal universe over the next
few weeks. Because Jerry's influence was in every corner of
trial work. If you tried cases, Jerry came into that conversation.
(11:48):
Even now there's a big discussion about how we reformed
torts and lawsuits and nuke verdicts. There wouldn't be a
new verdict without Jerry teaching those lawyers how to get him.
When you talk about people winning the unwinnable case and
the bravery that is involved with going out there and
(12:10):
trying that, that a lot of that comes out of
Jerry's teachings.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Well, I think Jerry would get a kick at it tonight.
You talking about the prosecutor that was on trial.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
God drove people in.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
SAE and I'm talking, You've got to be kidding me.
And I'll just say in advance, I know the defense
lawyer very very well. So he had a challenging case
that he did an excellent job. But man, tell them
(12:47):
what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
You've got a prosecutor that is on trial. You've got
a jury that my buddy Joshua Schiffer said, I had
to get it right. I mean, they had to take
all of this information. But you're talking about somebody that
was trained, maybe not at the ranch, but you're trained
to know how to argue. You're trained to know how
(13:08):
to put a case together and dismantle one. So to me,
you had somebody not just sitting at that defen the
table as a defendant. You had somebody that came ready
to prepare a sophistication.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Believe it or not, even though his attempts landed with
a thud of a dead fish, but his sophistication and
understand off the charts, absolutely off.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
The chart, off the charts.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
So it's not like somebody had to remind him you
have the right to remain silent.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
He knew that.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
It's not like somebody had to remind him what can
and cannot be used against him.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
He knows it.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
He knows it better than almost anybody walking. So that
to me was an added level of when you go
at this guy, you have to be correct.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
If you're going to swing up the ball, man, you
better land it. And he did.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
And I'll be the first one to say I thought
man prosecutor was a little bit heavy on the righteous indignation,
But wow, Jerry sure liked what she was selling, because
they came back in a snap a snap.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Were you surprised at the timing?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
You know, I could believe that it was gonna be
a reasonably fast Jerry returned because he was either gonna
get it and get clipped on everything or be walked.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
You either believed him or didn't, the.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Problem being his testimony was so inauthentic, so self serving,
so curated. It was a sales pitch that he had practiced.
And he was so proud. To quote one of my
dear friends, marg Russell, former law professor, trained lots of
lawyer as a ranch person. That just amazing, Like she
(14:53):
and I are talking about and he's so proud of
his story that it's clear false and that's one of
the things we discussed, and it's true. He was so
self assured that if they just just understood what he
was telling him, and that worked in a lot of
his life. We're talking about a guy that got married
(15:14):
times past bars, became lawyer, was a prosecutor.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Like, clearly his sales ship worked.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Hold on, No, you just said his story. He was
so proud of it. You knew it couldn't be true.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Oh wow, Wow, it's something that's so good. That's so good.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
We talked about the other night where it really is
insane to think of how close he and Coburger are
with the intent, because I believe Coburger had totally convinced himself,
I'm smart enough to get away with all this, i
(16:00):
can do what I want. I'm going and you know
it's based in mental illness and some severe whatever to imbalance,
because this is the actions of absolutely psychopathic people. Not
to say they don't deserve all the punishment that they're getting,
but you see that if Coburger had been able to
(16:20):
succeed and go out in the world for ten years,
this is the kind of guy he turns into. Everybody
believes him. What man, he's the expert.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And don't you know, there's somebody right now sitting in
a jail sale saying, I told y'all, I told y'all.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Hopefully given his post prosecutorial behavior where he was getting disbarred,
and I hope that there was some sort of notice that.
But you never know, you know, this may be the
wake up call since he's hit the press again where
somebody who's sitting there rotten in some facility is like, man,
that's the crook that and it just it really was
(16:59):
my blowing to sit there and watch him testify, which
there was no chance of him winning that case without
him testifying, not with the facts. As elected, he absolutely
had to do it.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
My friend, we got two minutes left, so I'm gonna
mention something that you talked about, and I'm gonna do
it quick. And I waited until there was a two
minute warning. So here's the deal. Yes, the case of
Melissa Wolfenberger kicked off today with opening statements. I do
not know what my involvement may or may not be
inside the courtroom. There is no gag order right now,
(17:35):
so I could talk. I'm gonna self impose one. I'm
not gonna talk. The integrity of the case. The integrity
of the investigation means more to me. I will talk
when I can, and I'm gonna talk to Joshua Schiffel
when i can, right so that y'all can hear all
of it. I have worked on this case for seven years.
(17:58):
I did a series for Zone seven. Hopefully y'all have
heard every episode and we will have an updated episode soon.
But as of tonight, I think y'all can understand and
respect that I'm just not going to say anything.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I'm gonna let the wheels of justice turn.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Hopefully I will be on that train, and hopefully I
can tell y'all what's going on next Friday.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Fascinating case with a very good judge, good good lawyer.
Mister Foss said is one of the DA's office long
standing kind of stalwarts, and Don Samuels and Coe is
just as good as you're going to get defense wise there.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I agree on all accounts.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Will be a trial to watch if you like watching
lawyering at a high level.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Thank you, my friend, and you know what I am
gonna later this evening, salute the round.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Thank you dear, and I can't wait to see you soon.
We're going to have this talk next week. I love it.
Audience out there, love you. Can't wait to hear from you.
Really reach out to us, tell us what you're interested in.
I'm super easy to find a lawyership on Twitter, and
really I want you all to have a great week
(19:16):
and get ready to watch some just exceptional litigation here.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
In Jordan right on. Thank y'all. We'll see you next Friday.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Bye y'all, Thank you, buddy,
Welcome to Crime Round Up.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Joshua Schiffer, What in the world it's like every day?
Me and you just laugh, like, are we going to
ever have, you know, an issue with thinking of a topic.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I wish people could just drop in on some of
the conversations that you and I have, that you and
I have with other people, because it's not like there's
a manual whether we get delivered every morning where it's
the oh, here's what we're going to be covering this
week and next week and here's what's going to happen. No,
this is live right, this is real life unfolding. Yeah,
(00:44):
and it's real stories. You know, it's amazing, you know,
in looking and when you and I are talking about
what we want to talk about, and then we see
this case and boom, there's Cheryl involved with a case
that how many years did it take to get to
Fulton County and it just starts up today.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Starts up today, Yes, sir, and we're going to talk
about that one.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
We also had a huge loss in the legal kind
of universe a name that kind of the gray hairs
will know a little bit more than the younger people
because he was an elderly man and his name's Jerry
Spence with a G.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
He really if you are a.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Fan, which you are of televised and media coverage of
legal he is a great grandfather.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
You know what, Joshua, I'm gonna stop you because I
think we need to do a proper homage to him.
And I'm going to toss it to you because I
saw your post, I saw the pictures.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I know what this person.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Meant to you, and I think you and you alone
should take a moment to honor him and speak about
him and make sure that we know all facets of
him to truly understand what everybody's thinking. So I'm going
to let you have the microphone by yourself and talk
(02:14):
about your friend.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
And he was a friend, and yeah, this is someone
who has met everybody in ninety six years. He was
a lawyer that every lawyer looked at and said, Wow,
that is a powerful advocate. He's one of those guys
or women, and you meet a few of them in
your life that no matter what your persuasion, the moment
(02:38):
they walk in the room, everyone is captured by their presence,
by their zeal for life, by their control of the room.
And it's what made Jerry a legitimate master of trial work.
And we're talking about someone who one of his calling
cards was he hadn't lost a case since the late
(03:02):
nineteen sixties. He never lost a similar word, and he
had tried. When you go back into the first big
cases that were covered by national media starting in the
sixties and seventies, we're talking about Karen Silkwood, we're talking
(03:23):
about the first mass torts. We're talking about Emelda Marcos,
Randy Weaver. Cases that were important not just for lawyers
and people who appreciate law and order and follow crime people.
These are the cases that affected the entire nation. And
Jerry had an ability to synthesize complex issues in a
(03:48):
way that was very approachable, and he was incredibly adept
at reacting and interacting with people on a level that's
just different from most lawyers and absolutely different from the
way lawyers and the legal system worked back in that day.
(04:09):
But more importantly, after winning all those cases, Jerry turned
around and with several other incredible lawyers, psychologists, judges, Judge Rose,
Bill Ackerman, John Nolty who is a famous psychologist, Bill Trine,
they founded this group called the tri Lawyers College out
(04:31):
at Jerry's ranch, which is in one of the most
inhospitable and remote parts of Wyoming Upper Road that you
can't get up most of the year, half the year
a dirt road into a national park that's twenty miles long.
And when you wander around the ranch, the next door
neighbor is the Shoshone People Reservation, the Wind River Reservation,
(04:54):
that movie that came out two three years ago, wind River.
That's where his ranch is. And if you wander away,
you're going to die.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Every year we.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Would have students and people that would have something happen
because of the inhospitability of the land. And what Jerry
did is he invited every year for about three or
four weeks, fifty or so lawyers and about fifty or
so volunteer lawyer teachers. And Jerry had developed a trial
(05:29):
technique and pathway and a toolkit involving the use of psychodrama,
which is a psychological toolkit developed by doctor Moreno. And
it's experiential. You can't teach it. You got to do it,
and you have to do it seriously. So we would
literally self segregate ourselves for three weeks. This is no phone,
(05:52):
there's no cell phones out there, you were out, You
were cut on purpose, and it allowed you the opportunity
to do the self discovery and work on the horse.
Work on yourself, because a ten thousand dollars saddle doesn't
do squad if it's on a nag of a horse
and you can dress it up all you want, doesn't
(06:13):
matter a damn thing if that horse ain't a good horse.
So work on the horse, and you're the horse and
the way. One of the penultimate questions, how do you
tell your client story? If you can't tell your story,
if you don't know your story. And lawyers are so
(06:37):
in many ways broken by the trauma that we deal with.
I think the problem solving is what sends a lot
of people into law school. Just like law enforcement. They
really enjoy that that angle of the service, of service
to others. And Jerry only allowed criminal defense and people
that represented individuals only. No insurance lawyers, no big business,
(07:02):
no government. Well there was public defenders, but you had
to be focused on the person and the process of
his college, which is written about in his books. You
can go read as many books. The Die of a
Country Lawyer as his kind of general biography talks about
the Ranch and the founding of the college. And you
(07:23):
would spend this first week doing psychology psychodramas with well
known psychodramatic leaders in small group settings with people that
I'm still friends with from my class in two thousand
and seven. Then you would spend a week on some
very intense trial skills and building trial skills using the
(07:46):
tools that we learned. And then the third week you
would spend practicing stuff. And that was just to open
the book, because law is like many professions where you
just keep getting better by practicing and experiencing an experiment.
And over twenty something years Jerry built the Ranch and
the Trial Laury's College up until it was kind of
(08:08):
who's who of the best lawyers in the nation when
the media calls me and how do you know that
guy man? We trained at a trial lawyer's college thing
together sixteen years ago. Now it is a college run
by people and personalities, and their personalities of lawyers, and
lawyers are difficult people, and so there have been a
(08:29):
lot of issues with the college. Most recently, the college
kind of split in half a couple of years ago.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
I have lucky that I have very.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Good relations with both haves I'm a former staff member
and elected representative of the students and a very active
person about what we do, which is the fidelity to
this system and using tools to really advocate for people
that need us, and to go tell the stories with
(09:02):
boldness and authenticity and truthfulness, not being afraid of the
outrageous powers, the betrayal that is at the heart of
every trial, not being intimidated, and going forward. And you know,
I can just talk about the name. Just this week,
there was a huge nineteen eighty three case out of
(09:24):
Michigan involving some just abhorrent law enforcement fifty eight million
dollars this six year case. When you talk about the
people doing a wrongful conviction, a lot of those people
have Trial Laura's college training at one level or another.
(09:44):
The biggest truck and tractor litigators who have literally forced
our government to make our transportation systems safer, and that's
Joe Freed one oh one. That's Mike Lieeserman out of Ohio.
When you talk about Rodney King, Rodney King's lawyer, he's
one of the board members. When you talk about the
(10:06):
innocence of the Indiana Seven, that's marn Cheloup. She's major
major lawyer involved. You really do learn from these outrageously
good lawyers who then many of them are invited to
come back and teach the skills. No money, there's no pay,
You pay your own way, like people. It's it's the opportunity,
(10:32):
it's the it's the honor of the invitation to be
with these groups of lawyers. Bj Bernstein, who's a local,
incredibly good lawyer here in Georgia, Nelson Tyrone, Dan Dwatt,
like I can just go on and on with these lawyers.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It's who's who.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, and Jerry's the one that brought them together. And
his passing is a loss, even though he led a life,
he led ten lives. Really just a fascinating person. You know.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
One of the first conversations you and I ever had,
you brought up the ranch, and all I can tell
you is what a legacy I am often just in
awe of such.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
A life well lived.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
And I will tell you his legacy will continue through
all of you.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
And you did a masterful job honoring him.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
So thank you, Josh, thank you so much for the opportunity.
And he really we're going to see a lot of
people write things in the legal universe over the next
few weeks. Because Jerry's influence was in every corner of
trial work. If you tried cases, Jerry came into that conversation.
(11:48):
Even now there's a big discussion about how we reformed
torts and lawsuits and nuke verdicts. There wouldn't be a
new verdict without Jerry teaching those lawyers how to get him.
When you talk about people winning the unwinnable case and
the bravery that is involved with going out there and
(12:10):
trying that, that a lot of that comes out of
Jerry's teachings.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Well, I think Jerry would get a kick at it tonight.
You talking about the prosecutor that was on trial.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
God drove people in.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
SAE and I'm talking, You've got to be kidding me.
And I'll just say in advance, I know the defense
lawyer very very well. So he had a challenging case
that he did an excellent job. But man, tell them
(12:47):
what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
You've got a prosecutor that is on trial. You've got
a jury that my buddy Joshua Schiffer said, I had
to get it right. I mean, they had to take
all of this information. But you're talking about somebody that
was trained, maybe not at the ranch, but you're trained
to know how to argue. You're trained to know how
(13:08):
to put a case together and dismantle one. So to me,
you had somebody not just sitting at that defen the
table as a defendant. You had somebody that came ready
to prepare a sophistication.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Believe it or not, even though his attempts landed with
a thud of a dead fish, but his sophistication and
understand off the charts, absolutely off.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
The chart, off the charts.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
So it's not like somebody had to remind him you
have the right to remain silent.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
He knew that.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
It's not like somebody had to remind him what can
and cannot be used against him.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
He knows it.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
He knows it better than almost anybody walking. So that
to me was an added level of when you go
at this guy, you have to be correct.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
If you're going to swing up the ball, man, you
better land it. And he did.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
And I'll be the first one to say I thought
man prosecutor was a little bit heavy on the righteous indignation,
But wow, Jerry sure liked what she was selling, because
they came back in a snap a snap.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Were you surprised at the timing?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
You know, I could believe that it was gonna be
a reasonably fast Jerry returned because he was either gonna
get it and get clipped on everything or be walked.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
You either believed him or didn't, the.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Problem being his testimony was so inauthentic, so self serving,
so curated. It was a sales pitch that he had practiced.
And he was so proud. To quote one of my
dear friends, marg Russell, former law professor, trained lots of
lawyer as a ranch person. That just amazing, Like she
(14:53):
and I are talking about and he's so proud of
his story that it's clear false and that's one of
the things we discussed, and it's true. He was so
self assured that if they just just understood what he
was telling him, and that worked in a lot of
his life. We're talking about a guy that got married
(15:14):
times past bars, became lawyer, was a prosecutor.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Like, clearly his sales ship worked.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Hold on, No, you just said his story. He was
so proud of it. You knew it couldn't be true.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Oh wow, Wow, it's something that's so good. That's so good.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
We talked about the other night where it really is
insane to think of how close he and Coburger are
with the intent, because I believe Coburger had totally convinced himself,
I'm smart enough to get away with all this, i
(16:00):
can do what I want. I'm going and you know
it's based in mental illness and some severe whatever to imbalance,
because this is the actions of absolutely psychopathic people. Not
to say they don't deserve all the punishment that they're getting,
but you see that if Coburger had been able to
(16:20):
succeed and go out in the world for ten years,
this is the kind of guy he turns into. Everybody
believes him. What man, he's the expert.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And don't you know, there's somebody right now sitting in
a jail sale saying, I told y'all, I told y'all.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Hopefully given his post prosecutorial behavior where he was getting disbarred,
and I hope that there was some sort of notice that.
But you never know, you know, this may be the
wake up call since he's hit the press again where
somebody who's sitting there rotten in some facility is like, man,
that's the crook that and it just it really was
(16:59):
my blowing to sit there and watch him testify, which
there was no chance of him winning that case without
him testifying, not with the facts. As elected, he absolutely
had to do it.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
My friend, we got two minutes left, so I'm gonna
mention something that you talked about, and I'm gonna do
it quick. And I waited until there was a two
minute warning. So here's the deal. Yes, the case of
Melissa Wolfenberger kicked off today with opening statements. I do
not know what my involvement may or may not be
inside the courtroom. There is no gag order right now,
(17:35):
so I could talk. I'm gonna self impose one. I'm
not gonna talk. The integrity of the case. The integrity
of the investigation means more to me. I will talk
when I can, and I'm gonna talk to Joshua Schiffel
when i can, right so that y'all can hear all
of it. I have worked on this case for seven years.
(17:58):
I did a series for Zone seven. Hopefully y'all have
heard every episode and we will have an updated episode soon.
But as of tonight, I think y'all can understand and
respect that I'm just not going to say anything.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I'm gonna let the wheels of justice turn.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Hopefully I will be on that train, and hopefully I
can tell y'all what's going on next Friday.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Fascinating case with a very good judge, good good lawyer.
Mister Foss said is one of the DA's office long
standing kind of stalwarts, and Don Samuels and Coe is
just as good as you're going to get defense wise there.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I agree on all accounts.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Will be a trial to watch if you like watching
lawyering at a high level.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Thank you, my friend, and you know what I am
gonna later this evening, salute the round.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Thank you dear, and I can't wait to see you soon.
We're going to have this talk next week. I love it.
Audience out there, love you. Can't wait to hear from you.
Really reach out to us, tell us what you're interested in.
I'm super easy to find a lawyership on Twitter, and
really I want you all to have a great week
(19:16):
and get ready to watch some just exceptional litigation here.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
In Jordan right on. Thank y'all. We'll see you next Friday.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Bye y'all, Thank you, buddy,
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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