This week marks a powerful shift on Crime Roundup as Emmy-winning CSI Sheryl “Mac” McCollum welcomes her new cohost: legal heavyweight and courtroom force Joshua Schiffer. In this episode, Sheryl and Joshua unpack the sentencing of Bryan Kohberger, the man behind one of the most gut-wrenching mass murders in recent memory.
Through the lens of law, justice, and most of all, parenthood, they reflect on the strength of the victims' families, the purpose of the court system, and the brutal reality of maximum-security prison. They also examine the legal mechanics behind the plea deal that spared Kohberger the death penalty, the boldness of the Chapin family’s absence, and the lasting impact of survivor statements.
With heart, grit, and powerful legal insight, Sheryl and Joshua hold nothing back in honoring the victims—Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin—and challenging listeners to choose light in the darkest of stories.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome to the “Schiffa Zone” – Sheryl introduces new cohost Joshua Schiffer
- (1:00) Kohberger’s sentencing through the eyes of parents and legal pros
- (2:30) “Our system hasn’t worked better... We received justice that was fulsome and appropriate.” —Joshua on justice done right
- (4:00) Grief, guilt, and impact: survivor and family statements that shook the courtroom
- (12:30) A look inside maximum-security prison: no peace, no control
- (15:00) “The warden don’t run that place”—violence, silence, and punishment
- (18:00) Justice over vengeance: why the plea deal was the right call
- (23:45) Why the Chapin family’s absence may have been the most powerful message
- (24:15) Final reflections: the power of memory, and the choice to look up
---
About the Hosts
Joshua Schiffer is a veteran trial attorney and one of the Southeast’s most respected legal voices. He is a founding partner at ChancoSchiffer P.C., where he has litigated high-stakes criminal, civil rights, and personal injury cases for over two decades. Known for his bold courtroom presence and ability to clearly explain complex legal issues, Schiffer is a frequent media contributor and fearless advocate for accountability.
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
If you enjoyed this episode, follow Crime Roundup on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review to help others find the show. Have a case you’d like Sheryl and Joshua to cover? Email coldcase2004@gmail.com, or connect with the hosts on social media:
Sheryl on X at @ColdCaseTips or Facebook at @sheryl.mccollum
Joshua on X at and Instagram at @lawyerschiff
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Crime Roundup. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and I
got to tell you right off the bat, this episode
has a warning attacked caution because y'all are entering the
shift of zone. Honey, y'all, please welcome the new co
(00:29):
host of Crime Roundup. You know him, you love him,
you admire him. Fame defense attorney, a legal legend that
has come straight from the Habitasherie Joshua Schiffer. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome,
my friend.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
You are too kind, and it is a profound honor
every time.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I hear from you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
You know what a giant fan I am of your
coverage and your perspective and the fact that you really
have cons Well, this.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
One is going to be an important one because I
tell you, you and I have talked often about people that
are familiar with the court system. We have talked as
folks that at my law enforcement and prosecutors. We have
talked about when you're on the opposite side of the owl.
We have talked about all kinds of things from both
(01:23):
sides of the world that we live in. Defense attorney prosecution, prosecution,
law enforcement, defense attorney in prison. But today we're going
to talk as parents, and I got to tell you,
I just you know, this week, I think we have
witnessed such grace and bravery, family loyalty, and love on
(01:51):
a level, Joshua, that you and I rarely see in
court every day.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
It really is and I'm so glad focusing on the
fact that the Coburger process, even though about the most
tragic thing you can, like seriously, as a parent, ask anybody,
loss of child, loss of multiple children by a stranger
in the most violent, reprehensible way possible. From the perspective
(02:18):
of the system, our system hasn't worked better because the
system confronted the absolute tear and horror of humankind's worst behaviors.
And no one is apologizing or justifying or anything like
that for mister Coburg. But what we saw was good
(02:42):
police work, especially now that so many of these documents
are getting released, and we see the efforts that the
investigators and the officers were involved in from.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
The get go.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
And these are law enforcement groups that took a lot
of flak, They took a lot of pressure from the
general public. And then we saw a district attorney and
a prosecution as well as a defense do their jobs.
Admirably and aggressively, zealously agreed for the people that they
were really owing their duties to the general public and
(03:16):
their client, and in the end, the general public received
justice that was fulsome and appropriate. We received it in
an honest and straightforward, matter of fact, man of fashion,
and it really was a high point in how our
(03:37):
criminal justice system deals with the worst kinds of cases.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
You know, these four children, because that's what they were,
their parents, their siblings, their friends. They went to that
podium and they spoke and I want to say spoken
quotes and I'm going to get back that minute, but
they spoke in the way that they needed to, and
(04:04):
what I thought was so impressive. Nothing was a cookie
cutter here. Each person said what they needed to from
hell is waiting on you. You're an idiot, you're basic,
you're nothing to I forgive you. I mean, it was
the spectrum, the full spectrum, the full spectrum. And when
(04:25):
each person spoke, I was like, yep, yep, I get it.
I feel it. I'm with you. I can understand what
you're saying. You know, the one stepfather that said I
want five minutes with you in the woods, I get it.
I get it.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So good because they did it hit so many different perspectives, that.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
So many But I got to tell you when Dylan Mortensen,
when she said what happened that night changed everything, Joshua,
I knew right there, this is gonna hurt to hear.
It needed to hurt, It needed to be real. But
I'm just saying, you know, I've heard you talk about
(05:08):
your college days, Walt Ny. We met in high school,
but college is where we really became us. The way
we travel, the way we communicate.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Right, such a defining chapter man in so many of
our lives.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And she went on to say, he did not take
them from the world, He took them from me. I
cannot imagine losing Wall in college. My whole life would
have come off the rails and stayed that way.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
That concretized the juncture at life and that specialness that
I think either you have an experienced or if you have,
it's been a while, because there's that specialness of your
in college and you're not a first year, you're not
a freshman. You've got your life together in a way
(06:08):
that you've never had it before. You're nineteen, twenty twenty one,
twenty two, you're taking care of and we all know
this as adults, you're not really taking care of stuff.
But for that age, for that stage in life, you
finally have stuff going that you control, that you've built,
You've got this academic record, you've got these independent friendships
(06:31):
that weren't forced because if they played on the same
sports team. So no, these are people that you met
and you've got agency and control in your life, and
it really becomes that platform most people based the rest
of their adulthood on. And to lose those relationships, to
(06:52):
lose those people, to have them stolen at this juncture,
is especially painful. It's heartbreaking. And so many people's growth
moment occurs at or around college or just after, when
they discover that meaning that brings them forward. And that's
where these four kids were. And as a dad, that
(07:16):
is brutal. The amount of investment and time parents put
into getting your kid to that juncture, it magnifies the impact.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
And I got to say something. I don't always talk properly.
I don't always talk purty. I mean sometimes you know,
Nancy Grace will always say that's a double negative. You know,
where you're dropping your g or whatever I'm doing. But
you are, without a doubt, one of the best orators
I've ever heard in my life. And not just when
(07:49):
you're in court, you'll do it in a general conversation.
But my question for you, with all of your training,
with your obvious gifts to turn a phrase, could you
adequately describe what your daughter means to you on paper?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
It impossible?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Impossible, It absolutely And my belief and why what we
witnessed was so important is if you really mean something
and you want to communicate, don't tell them, show them.
And we typically phrase it reverse of that, show them,
don't tell them. How do you communicate something? And this
(08:34):
gets a little bit more academic for the nerds out
there when you're talking about trials, trial technique, persuasive advocacy,
being an advocate in your personal and professional life. Show
someone the feelings. Because words suck, they fail. I know
lots of them. I know tons and tons of words.
(08:55):
There aren't the right words to discuss and to completely
communicate those films. It's why we have things like poetry.
What is poetry? It's words meant to evoke a feeling.
Same with music, and I know, Cheryl, you've got those
songs where they turn on and the turkey skin goes
(09:15):
up on the neck and you get all bubbled and
it's like it brings you right, that that's a feeling,
and feelings are very complex to transmit, to share, to
connect with it, and it requires, I believe, some physical
action and the appearance and investing yourself in that moment.
(09:36):
The way that those impact statements came out this week,
and they came out in an organic, natural, varied way,
really did hit the whole spectrum. And notice how no
one ran out of time, Notice how no one was
pressured to wrap it up. That this was a fulsome opportunity,
(10:03):
and you know they spent time on this, and you
know that they went through versions of what they wanted
to say that we're so.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Angry, and it was genuine, it was heartfelt, it was
gut wrenching. It was deliberate. I'll tell you right off
the bat. When the sister stood up and told Coberger
sit up straight. When I talked to you, my head
(10:31):
literally spun around because I'm like, wait a minute, this
is different. Normally they only talk about their loved one.
She's going to talk directly to him and then give
him a directive. I'm like Okay, girl, let's go. I
was all in because again that's what she needed to do,
(10:52):
and I thought she was brilliant using his own words
against him.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Elena really did a spectacle killer job in using those
kind of communicative touchdowns his own words, that connection, in
changing how you're directing your speech. It's not to the judge,
it's to the defendant, it's to the convicted powerful.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
And then we saw you know, Bethany the survivor gilt.
Oh my word, I mean that child when she wrote
why did I get to live and not them?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
And the trauma?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I'm very glad she's thoroughly supported, because really, this is
nothing's the same after this. This is one of those
watershed moments, and I'm glad that she continues to carry
on a story in a legacy, but a profoundly change.
Whatever the meaning in her life was before, it is
different now. And this was a necessary episode for her
(11:59):
to share that growth and development. And I'll say, the
petty part of my heart is happy Brian Coberger had
to listen to it. He can close his ears, he
can ignore, he can prep sitting in his cell at night,
going all you gotta do is just sit there all
you gotta do is just sit there, don't make a sound,
don't say anything.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
It doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Those words are going to echo with him for the
rest of his life, and it's going to be a
life of And I know people are upset about the
death penalty not being applied. I assure you, a life
in maximum security is not.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Just no life.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It is a life of extraordinary discomfort and pain and
sadness and punishment that you really can't believe. I've been in,
just like Cheryl have lots of prisons. Prisons aren't You
can see the bursts of happiness and laugh. There are
(13:00):
individual episodes where you see a little bit.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Of light and love and levity.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
No, most of the time you walk into these they're quiet.
You're not allowed to yell and scream. It's not a
bunch of people. No, the maximum security places tend to
be pretty silent, really really quiet, a lot of nothing
(13:27):
except the standard routine. Because so many of these individuals
are in the basically administry of segregation, twenty three twenty
four hour lockdowns. Their life is nothing but a slot
opening and a door three times a day with a tray.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
You know, I've spent eight years at Rice Street with
the Sheriff's Department. And I'm will tell you there's all
kind of punishment. One you can't ever again eat what
you won't when you want to eat it. You can't
take a shower when you want to, You can't go
(14:06):
to sleep when you want to. You can't make a
doctor's appointment and go see somebody immediately. You can't talk
to family or friends or do any of the just
things you take for granted every day. But I'm gonna
tell you it stinks. It's sterile, it's cold, it's damp,
and a lot of times dangerous.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
He is gonna struggle just looking and knowing so inside prison,
And I know everybody's got all kinds of clap trap
about what they believe in, what their cousin done told them,
and how it is in their state. Physically, people accused
of the sex crimes, of the assault on children. That
(14:53):
that's a bad spot in the hierarchy.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
That's a bad spot.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
CM's there's a million different ways to refer to the
people in that sexualized offender category. Chester yep, Chesters. They
sometimes wear a different color uniform. There's a whole lot.
But I assure you everybody else in the yard knows
everybody's business. And he is a man that is not
(15:23):
what i'd say intimidating from a physical perspective, at least
not compared to most people that are long term prison residents.
And having not seen too much of his personality, but
just reading about it, he strikes me as a kind
of nerdy, academic misfit cast out. And that's a tough
(15:46):
way to go to prison with the same people for a.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Long time, Joshua. Bottom line, there are folks in there
that have been on the street since they were a kid.
They are drug dealers, they are hustlers, they are rapist,
they are killers, they are gang members.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
No compunction to rely on the rules of society, Zpe.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And he has been, for all intensive purposes, a cream puff.
He ain't ready like you.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Gotta understand the fundamental rules of society don't exist in
a maximum security prison. It is all power control. If
there is a weakness, these are the inmates that will
take advantage of it. These guys have more time than
anything else, and they openly do not have your best interests,
(16:38):
and they do not share your morals and values.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
They don't and the warden don't run that place.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
No you kidding me.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Warden's job is to keep the walls as high as possible.
That's really number one. Prevent the guys inside from getting outside.
After that, and it's kind of gravy how well you
run your facility, which is sad and awful. And we
can talk all about the problems in institutionalization and modern
(17:12):
penal policies and how prison rape is a horrific, persistent,
chronic issue that they've never been able to get a
handle on it. I got a bunch of flak because
I said, hey, listen, I appreciate the most offensive humor
in the world, but I don't think prison rapes really
super funny.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Having dealt with a bunch of people who got raped in.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Prison, I totally understand why the family of these victims
would be like, I hope you get raped every day.
I understand that level of anger and fury at murdering
and killing and stealing my loved one away. There's no
bottom to the end of punishment. I hope you get,
(17:55):
but prison, I assure everybody his life is going to
be miss miserable for every minute until he dies.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You know, when Scott Laramie Matty's stepfather talked about quote
the endless void that to me is where he's living.
He's in an abyss of crap forever.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, and really, I'm very proud that this horrifically sad
chapter and story is getting a complete resolution because the
state did its job. Sure there were hiccups, Sure there
(18:40):
are things that can always be done better. They are
aspirational goals for justice that she'll never be met. That's
why it's aspirational. That's why justice is something we all
work towards from our various perspectives. But guess what state
got it done. State didn't know who it was, found him,
found him, and then the investigation to prove it was
(19:02):
him put together a case that on its face could
have very easily led to the client being put to death.
In a lawful manner, client made a really smart decision
considering the very few parts of the case that flowed
in his benefit and took the absolute best deal possible,
(19:25):
which still guarantees he doesn't get to appeal. He's done,
he's wrapped. Stories over, Just go do the time and
we will next hear about this when he tries to
sell a book or when he is getting married to
some person who is more desperate for God knows, because
he is going to be inundated with love letters. But
(19:49):
I'm very proud that this episode showed why the system
worked and the defense didn't let up. The defense had
their knives out until the plague. That's right, And you
got a da proud and strong and confident and had
(20:12):
the character to overrule the legitimate desires of some victims
and many people in the community to be more aggressive
and said, no, I'm going to use my discretion to
make choices that I believe fulfill my duties, and that
includes not spending the assets and creating the exposure and
(20:35):
investigation into these young people's lives and causing additional harms
that are just going to be thrown out of any
Definitely try, I don't care what kind. There's just problems.
They're hard for a reason. Let's make the right decision.
And he did, and he convinced the defense to take it,
and he did it knowing they were going to get
(20:57):
just lambasted by people left right, and said, but he
put justice first above headlines and other more more base.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Motivations.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Well, I gotta tell you something, you and I have
talked about some of the things that the families said
in court, but one of the most power moves I
have ever seen in my life came from the Chapin family.
They did not show up. They refused to give Coburger
(21:38):
any audience. He was not going to have a chance
to see their pain, their grief, or hear any intimate
details about Ethan. I think that was straight up gangster yet.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
No boss power move. And it's like the judge said,
you can tell you to give him agency and attention.
That's power. Let's stop. You know, Scher, When you first
talked to me about about doing this, it was before
the sentence scene, and you and I had a very
serious conversation about, Hey, what's gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Well, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
This could have been one of those victim impact things
that becomes a story into itself because of what happens
at the hearing. We were prepared for it to go
over one full afternoon and into the next day, and
the system, again organically and through these families, made sure
(22:38):
Brian Koberger felt every flavor of feeling people had from
the straight up I hate you, wish I could get
you in the woods wish you were sexually assault murdered.
Kit all that through the grace of faith. And we
had a number of references to faith and how it
(23:00):
is the supreme act of God and creation to forgive.
It is so hard, it is so meaningful, but that's
why it is the highest form of service of faith
in belief is the ability to forgive, because without forgiveness,
we are all doomed. If you do not find forgiveness,
(23:23):
and all you think about is punishment, revenge, society ends,
it never expands or grows because you're always going to
be running out of the next people.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
To attack in her Amen.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
So we had forgiveness of the highest level. And then,
like you said, with the shape and family, I'm going
to rob you, Brian Coberger, of the attention that we
all know he was motivated by, at least to some degree.
They've forced him to live forever without hearing from eth family.
(24:01):
And that's a megaboss move, an absolute foot down.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Screw you. I don't have respect for it. This is done.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
You know, your friendship and your guidance and your leadership
and your humor are something I adore and rely on.
So I'm just gonna tell you you being here for
Crime round Up every week, Honey, it is just gonna
set this place on fire. So here's what I want
to do. You might have already done it because what
(24:35):
you just said was so brilliant and perfect. But as
a lawyer, as a son, as a friend, as a father,
I'm going to give you the last words, and you
you can speak straight to Xanna and Maddie and Ethan.
(24:57):
Sorry I got choked up. I'm so sorry I got
hooked up, but I gotta mention Kayley, I can't.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
You know, staring into hopelessness is the cruelest existence that
anybody can have. And at the same time, Brian Coburger's
his story and his value as a person is not
(25:24):
zero and his actions while absolutely horrific. We're going to
take the legacy of these four absolutely innocent children and
create something by carrying on and using their memory and
(25:47):
using this process. And I know that the pathway is
foggy because we can't predict the future, but I have
absolute faith that the people that loved these four are
going to create good from the memory they leave behind.
(26:11):
That's left behind my people, my family, my faith. We
always say, may their memory be a blessing because when
someone's gone, you know, it's heartbreaking, it's sad, I'm sorry,
I'm sorry. Isn't really something for a death because a
death is part of our cycle and your memory being
(26:35):
a blessing is so all encompassing, an evocative of all
the good in creation, and Cheryl, you and I have
talked about this. There are people that walk through life
on the path, on the journey, looking down, and there
are people looking up. And you will follow your gaze,
(26:57):
and if you look at the world and focus on
the awful, you will find a pathway. There is plenty
of awful for you to explore. You can lose yourself
an awful and it's your choice to do that, just
as it's your choice to instead walk looking up and
knowing that bad happens. But you keep walking forward, You
(27:23):
keep looking up at grace, at creation, at faith, at family.
You look up because that's the only place the positivity,
the light, the love comes from. And it's your choice
tomorrow morning when you get up, whether you want to
(27:43):
look down on your path or if you want to
look up. And even if you are involved in the
trauma of law, enforcement, of criminal justice, of medicine, you
can find that upward looking, forward facing, praise worthy pathway
because it's your choice to do that every single
Speaker 1 (28:08):
I'm Cheryl McCollum with Joshua Schiffer and this is Crome
Round Up.
Welcome to the Crime Roundup. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and I
got to tell you right off the bat, this episode
has a warning attacked caution because y'all are entering the
shift of zone. Honey, y'all, please welcome the new co
(00:29):
host of Crime Roundup. You know him, you love him,
you admire him. Fame defense attorney, a legal legend that
has come straight from the Habitasherie Joshua Schiffer. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome,
my friend.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
You are too kind, and it is a profound honor
every time.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I hear from you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
You know what a giant fan I am of your
coverage and your perspective and the fact that you really
have cons Well, this.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
One is going to be an important one because I
tell you, you and I have talked often about people that
are familiar with the court system. We have talked as
folks that at my law enforcement and prosecutors. We have
talked about when you're on the opposite side of the owl.
We have talked about all kinds of things from both
(01:23):
sides of the world that we live in. Defense attorney prosecution, prosecution,
law enforcement, defense attorney in prison. But today we're going
to talk as parents, and I got to tell you,
I just you know, this week, I think we have
witnessed such grace and bravery, family loyalty, and love on
(01:51):
a level, Joshua, that you and I rarely see in
court every day.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
It really is and I'm so glad focusing on the
fact that the Coburger process, even though about the most
tragic thing you can, like seriously, as a parent, ask anybody,
loss of child, loss of multiple children by a stranger
in the most violent, reprehensible way possible. From the perspective
(02:18):
of the system, our system hasn't worked better because the
system confronted the absolute tear and horror of humankind's worst behaviors.
And no one is apologizing or justifying or anything like
that for mister Coburg. But what we saw was good
(02:42):
police work, especially now that so many of these documents
are getting released, and we see the efforts that the
investigators and the officers were involved in from.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
The get go.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
And these are law enforcement groups that took a lot
of flak, They took a lot of pressure from the
general public. And then we saw a district attorney and
a prosecution as well as a defense do their jobs.
Admirably and aggressively, zealously agreed for the people that they
were really owing their duties to the general public and
(03:16):
their client, and in the end, the general public received
justice that was fulsome and appropriate. We received it in
an honest and straightforward, matter of fact, man of fashion,
and it really was a high point in how our
(03:37):
criminal justice system deals with the worst kinds of cases.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
You know, these four children, because that's what they were,
their parents, their siblings, their friends. They went to that
podium and they spoke and I want to say spoken
quotes and I'm going to get back that minute, but
they spoke in the way that they needed to, and
(04:04):
what I thought was so impressive. Nothing was a cookie
cutter here. Each person said what they needed to from
hell is waiting on you. You're an idiot, you're basic,
you're nothing to I forgive you. I mean, it was
the spectrum, the full spectrum, the full spectrum. And when
(04:25):
each person spoke, I was like, yep, yep, I get it.
I feel it. I'm with you. I can understand what
you're saying. You know, the one stepfather that said I
want five minutes with you in the woods, I get it.
I get it.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So good because they did it hit so many different perspectives, that.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
So many But I got to tell you when Dylan Mortensen,
when she said what happened that night changed everything, Joshua,
I knew right there, this is gonna hurt to hear.
It needed to hurt, It needed to be real. But
I'm just saying, you know, I've heard you talk about
(05:08):
your college days, Walt Ny. We met in high school,
but college is where we really became us. The way
we travel, the way we communicate.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Right, such a defining chapter man in so many of
our lives.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And she went on to say, he did not take
them from the world, He took them from me. I
cannot imagine losing Wall in college. My whole life would
have come off the rails and stayed that way.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
That concretized the juncture at life and that specialness that
I think either you have an experienced or if you have,
it's been a while, because there's that specialness of your
in college and you're not a first year, you're not
a freshman. You've got your life together in a way
(06:08):
that you've never had it before. You're nineteen, twenty twenty one,
twenty two, you're taking care of and we all know
this as adults, you're not really taking care of stuff.
But for that age, for that stage in life, you
finally have stuff going that you control, that you've built,
You've got this academic record, you've got these independent friendships
(06:31):
that weren't forced because if they played on the same
sports team. So no, these are people that you met
and you've got agency and control in your life, and
it really becomes that platform most people based the rest
of their adulthood on. And to lose those relationships, to
(06:52):
lose those people, to have them stolen at this juncture,
is especially painful. It's heartbreaking. And so many people's growth
moment occurs at or around college or just after, when
they discover that meaning that brings them forward. And that's
where these four kids were. And as a dad, that
(07:16):
is brutal. The amount of investment and time parents put
into getting your kid to that juncture, it magnifies the impact.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
And I got to say something. I don't always talk properly.
I don't always talk purty. I mean sometimes you know,
Nancy Grace will always say that's a double negative. You know,
where you're dropping your g or whatever I'm doing. But
you are, without a doubt, one of the best orators
I've ever heard in my life. And not just when
(07:49):
you're in court, you'll do it in a general conversation.
But my question for you, with all of your training,
with your obvious gifts to turn a phrase, could you
adequately describe what your daughter means to you on paper?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
It impossible?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Impossible, It absolutely And my belief and why what we
witnessed was so important is if you really mean something
and you want to communicate, don't tell them, show them.
And we typically phrase it reverse of that, show them,
don't tell them. How do you communicate something? And this
(08:34):
gets a little bit more academic for the nerds out
there when you're talking about trials, trial technique, persuasive advocacy,
being an advocate in your personal and professional life. Show
someone the feelings. Because words suck, they fail. I know
lots of them. I know tons and tons of words.
(08:55):
There aren't the right words to discuss and to completely
communicate those films. It's why we have things like poetry.
What is poetry? It's words meant to evoke a feeling.
Same with music, and I know, Cheryl, you've got those
songs where they turn on and the turkey skin goes
(09:15):
up on the neck and you get all bubbled and
it's like it brings you right, that that's a feeling,
and feelings are very complex to transmit, to share, to
connect with it, and it requires, I believe, some physical
action and the appearance and investing yourself in that moment.
(09:36):
The way that those impact statements came out this week,
and they came out in an organic, natural, varied way,
really did hit the whole spectrum. And notice how no
one ran out of time, Notice how no one was
pressured to wrap it up. That this was a fulsome opportunity,
(10:03):
and you know they spent time on this, and you
know that they went through versions of what they wanted
to say that we're so.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Angry, and it was genuine, it was heartfelt, it was
gut wrenching. It was deliberate. I'll tell you right off
the bat. When the sister stood up and told Coberger
sit up straight. When I talked to you, my head
(10:31):
literally spun around because I'm like, wait a minute, this
is different. Normally they only talk about their loved one.
She's going to talk directly to him and then give
him a directive. I'm like Okay, girl, let's go. I
was all in because again that's what she needed to do,
(10:52):
and I thought she was brilliant using his own words
against him.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Elena really did a spectacle killer job in using those
kind of communicative touchdowns his own words, that connection, in
changing how you're directing your speech. It's not to the judge,
it's to the defendant, it's to the convicted powerful.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
And then we saw you know, Bethany the survivor gilt.
Oh my word, I mean that child when she wrote
why did I get to live and not them?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
And the trauma?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I'm very glad she's thoroughly supported, because really, this is
nothing's the same after this. This is one of those
watershed moments, and I'm glad that she continues to carry
on a story in a legacy, but a profoundly change.
Whatever the meaning in her life was before, it is
different now. And this was a necessary episode for her
(11:59):
to share that growth and development. And I'll say, the
petty part of my heart is happy Brian Coberger had
to listen to it. He can close his ears, he
can ignore, he can prep sitting in his cell at night,
going all you gotta do is just sit there all
you gotta do is just sit there, don't make a sound,
don't say anything.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
It doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Those words are going to echo with him for the
rest of his life, and it's going to be a
life of And I know people are upset about the
death penalty not being applied. I assure you, a life
in maximum security is not.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Just no life.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It is a life of extraordinary discomfort and pain and
sadness and punishment that you really can't believe. I've been in,
just like Cheryl have lots of prisons. Prisons aren't You
can see the bursts of happiness and laugh. There are
(13:00):
individual episodes where you see a little bit.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Of light and love and levity.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
No, most of the time you walk into these they're quiet.
You're not allowed to yell and scream. It's not a
bunch of people. No, the maximum security places tend to
be pretty silent, really really quiet, a lot of nothing
(13:27):
except the standard routine. Because so many of these individuals
are in the basically administry of segregation, twenty three twenty
four hour lockdowns. Their life is nothing but a slot
opening and a door three times a day with a tray.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
You know, I've spent eight years at Rice Street with
the Sheriff's Department. And I'm will tell you there's all
kind of punishment. One you can't ever again eat what
you won't when you want to eat it. You can't
take a shower when you want to, You can't go
(14:06):
to sleep when you want to. You can't make a
doctor's appointment and go see somebody immediately. You can't talk
to family or friends or do any of the just
things you take for granted every day. But I'm gonna
tell you it stinks. It's sterile, it's cold, it's damp,
and a lot of times dangerous.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
He is gonna struggle just looking and knowing so inside prison,
And I know everybody's got all kinds of clap trap
about what they believe in, what their cousin done told them,
and how it is in their state. Physically, people accused
of the sex crimes, of the assault on children. That
(14:53):
that's a bad spot in the hierarchy.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
That's a bad spot.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
CM's there's a million different ways to refer to the
people in that sexualized offender category. Chester yep, Chesters. They
sometimes wear a different color uniform. There's a whole lot.
But I assure you everybody else in the yard knows
everybody's business. And he is a man that is not
(15:23):
what i'd say intimidating from a physical perspective, at least
not compared to most people that are long term prison residents.
And having not seen too much of his personality, but
just reading about it, he strikes me as a kind
of nerdy, academic misfit cast out. And that's a tough
(15:46):
way to go to prison with the same people for a.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Long time, Joshua. Bottom line, there are folks in there
that have been on the street since they were a kid.
They are drug dealers, they are hustlers, they are rapist,
they are killers, they are gang members.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
No compunction to rely on the rules of society, Zpe.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And he has been, for all intensive purposes, a cream puff.
He ain't ready like you.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Gotta understand the fundamental rules of society don't exist in
a maximum security prison. It is all power control. If
there is a weakness, these are the inmates that will
take advantage of it. These guys have more time than
anything else, and they openly do not have your best interests,
(16:38):
and they do not share your morals and values.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
They don't and the warden don't run that place.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
No you kidding me.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Warden's job is to keep the walls as high as possible.
That's really number one. Prevent the guys inside from getting outside.
After that, and it's kind of gravy how well you
run your facility, which is sad and awful. And we
can talk all about the problems in institutionalization and modern
(17:12):
penal policies and how prison rape is a horrific, persistent,
chronic issue that they've never been able to get a
handle on it. I got a bunch of flak because
I said, hey, listen, I appreciate the most offensive humor
in the world, but I don't think prison rapes really
super funny.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Having dealt with a bunch of people who got raped in.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Prison, I totally understand why the family of these victims
would be like, I hope you get raped every day.
I understand that level of anger and fury at murdering
and killing and stealing my loved one away. There's no
bottom to the end of punishment. I hope you get,
(17:55):
but prison, I assure everybody his life is going to
be miss miserable for every minute until he dies.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You know, when Scott Laramie Matty's stepfather talked about quote
the endless void that to me is where he's living.
He's in an abyss of crap forever.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, and really, I'm very proud that this horrifically sad
chapter and story is getting a complete resolution because the
state did its job. Sure there were hiccups, Sure there
(18:40):
are things that can always be done better. They are
aspirational goals for justice that she'll never be met. That's
why it's aspirational. That's why justice is something we all
work towards from our various perspectives. But guess what state
got it done. State didn't know who it was, found him,
found him, and then the investigation to prove it was
(19:02):
him put together a case that on its face could
have very easily led to the client being put to death.
In a lawful manner, client made a really smart decision
considering the very few parts of the case that flowed
in his benefit and took the absolute best deal possible,
(19:25):
which still guarantees he doesn't get to appeal. He's done,
he's wrapped. Stories over, Just go do the time and
we will next hear about this when he tries to
sell a book or when he is getting married to
some person who is more desperate for God knows, because
he is going to be inundated with love letters. But
(19:49):
I'm very proud that this episode showed why the system
worked and the defense didn't let up. The defense had
their knives out until the plague. That's right, And you
got a da proud and strong and confident and had
(20:12):
the character to overrule the legitimate desires of some victims
and many people in the community to be more aggressive
and said, no, I'm going to use my discretion to
make choices that I believe fulfill my duties, and that
includes not spending the assets and creating the exposure and
(20:35):
investigation into these young people's lives and causing additional harms
that are just going to be thrown out of any
Definitely try, I don't care what kind. There's just problems.
They're hard for a reason. Let's make the right decision.
And he did, and he convinced the defense to take it,
and he did it knowing they were going to get
(20:57):
just lambasted by people left right, and said, but he
put justice first above headlines and other more more base.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Motivations.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Well, I gotta tell you something, you and I have
talked about some of the things that the families said
in court, but one of the most power moves I
have ever seen in my life came from the Chapin family.
They did not show up. They refused to give Coburger
(21:38):
any audience. He was not going to have a chance
to see their pain, their grief, or hear any intimate
details about Ethan. I think that was straight up gangster yet.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
No boss power move. And it's like the judge said,
you can tell you to give him agency and attention.
That's power. Let's stop. You know, Scher, When you first
talked to me about about doing this, it was before
the sentence scene, and you and I had a very
serious conversation about, Hey, what's gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Well, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
This could have been one of those victim impact things
that becomes a story into itself because of what happens
at the hearing. We were prepared for it to go
over one full afternoon and into the next day, and
the system, again organically and through these families, made sure
(22:38):
Brian Koberger felt every flavor of feeling people had from
the straight up I hate you, wish I could get
you in the woods wish you were sexually assault murdered.
Kit all that through the grace of faith. And we
had a number of references to faith and how it
(23:00):
is the supreme act of God and creation to forgive.
It is so hard, it is so meaningful, but that's
why it is the highest form of service of faith
in belief is the ability to forgive, because without forgiveness,
we are all doomed. If you do not find forgiveness,
(23:23):
and all you think about is punishment, revenge, society ends,
it never expands or grows because you're always going to
be running out of the next people.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
To attack in her Amen.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
So we had forgiveness of the highest level. And then,
like you said, with the shape and family, I'm going
to rob you, Brian Coberger, of the attention that we
all know he was motivated by, at least to some degree.
They've forced him to live forever without hearing from eth family.
(24:01):
And that's a megaboss move, an absolute foot down.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Screw you. I don't have respect for it. This is done.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
You know, your friendship and your guidance and your leadership
and your humor are something I adore and rely on.
So I'm just gonna tell you you being here for
Crime round Up every week, Honey, it is just gonna
set this place on fire. So here's what I want
to do. You might have already done it because what
(24:35):
you just said was so brilliant and perfect. But as
a lawyer, as a son, as a friend, as a father,
I'm going to give you the last words, and you
you can speak straight to Xanna and Maddie and Ethan.
(24:57):
Sorry I got choked up. I'm so sorry I got
hooked up, but I gotta mention Kayley, I can't.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
You know, staring into hopelessness is the cruelest existence that
anybody can have. And at the same time, Brian Coburger's
his story and his value as a person is not
(25:24):
zero and his actions while absolutely horrific. We're going to
take the legacy of these four absolutely innocent children and
create something by carrying on and using their memory and
(25:47):
using this process. And I know that the pathway is
foggy because we can't predict the future, but I have
absolute faith that the people that loved these four are
going to create good from the memory they leave behind.
(26:11):
That's left behind my people, my family, my faith. We
always say, may their memory be a blessing because when
someone's gone, you know, it's heartbreaking, it's sad, I'm sorry,
I'm sorry. Isn't really something for a death because a
death is part of our cycle and your memory being
(26:35):
a blessing is so all encompassing, an evocative of all
the good in creation, and Cheryl, you and I have
talked about this. There are people that walk through life
on the path, on the journey, looking down, and there
are people looking up. And you will follow your gaze,
(26:57):
and if you look at the world and focus on
the awful, you will find a pathway. There is plenty
of awful for you to explore. You can lose yourself
an awful and it's your choice to do that, just
as it's your choice to instead walk looking up and
knowing that bad happens. But you keep walking forward, You
(27:23):
keep looking up at grace, at creation, at faith, at family.
You look up because that's the only place the positivity,
the light, the love comes from. And it's your choice
tomorrow morning when you get up, whether you want to
(27:43):
look down on your path or if you want to
look up. And even if you are involved in the
trauma of law, enforcement, of criminal justice, of medicine, you
can find that upward looking, forward facing, praise worthy pathway
because it's your choice to do that every single
Speaker 1 (28:08):
I'm Cheryl McCollum with Joshua Schiffer and this is Crome
Round Up.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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