March 5, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator Sheryl McCollum continues a previous discussion on the topic. She is joined for a Part II conversation by Dr. Katherine Ramsland and Tracy Ullman, two crime experts who have spent years investigating and documenting the case of Elmer Wayne Henley Jr.
Today, they primarily discuss how predators manipulate young people. They explore why adolescents are particularly vulnerable, how predators groom not just individuals but entire communities, and the blurred line between victim and accomplice. Lastly, they share practical advice for parents, teachers, and counselors on recognizing warning signs and protecting young people from falling victim.
Dr. Katherine Ramsland is a professor of forensic psychology at DeSales University. She has written over 70 books and appeared in more than 200 crime documentaries. Her work includes interviews with notorious criminals, including BTK (Dennis Rader).
Tracy Ullman is a documentary producer and director who has worked on numerous true-crime series for Discovery and PBS. She is best known for her work on John Wayne Gacy: Devil in Disguise and her recent book with Dr. Ramsland, The Serial Killer's Apprentice.
Elmer Wayne Henley Jr. joins Zone 7 as a special guest to provide personal insight into his mindset during his time with Corll.
Resources:
Zone 7 Part I The Serial Killer's Apprentice | The Story of Elmer Wayne Henley Jr.
The Serial Killer's Apprentice
John Wayne Gacy: Devil in Disguise
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
- (0:10) Sheryl welcomes back guests, Dr. Katherine Ramsland, Tracy Ullman, and Elmer Wayne Henley Jr. to Zone 7
- (1:30) Understanding the adolescent brain
- (5:00) Generational relationships in crime reduction
- (8:15) Grooming the community
- (11:15) The fine line between a victim and an accomplice
- (16:00) ”That's the most just in your face and accurate statement I've heard that if every parent that dropped their child off at the scout meeting could be fooled, how could that child not be?”
- (17:00) The Superbowl is the largest event for child trafficking to occur
- (21:00) Warning signs for parents - what to watch for in at-risk youth
- (22:30) “Education is the answer. Understanding is the answer. Involvement is the answer”
- (26:00) Final thoughts
- (28:00) ”I have to accept that any child, because that's what I was, any child
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Wayne's calling now an inmate at Keelford Units.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
This call is being here and.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
To accept this free.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Call Press one y'all tonight is an important part two.
Tonight we're joined again by the brilliant doctor Catherine Ramslin,
who y'all know is an author, professor and serial killer expert.
The peerless Tracy Ullman, who's the documentary producer, director and
(00:40):
writer and known for her expert research skills. Together Dtor
Ramsln and Tracy Ulmen wrote the book The Serial Killers Apprentice,
the true story of how Houston's deadliest murderer turns a
kid into a killing machine. Ladies, welcome, Welcome back to
(01:03):
Zone seven.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Erry, happy to be here, thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
And we're going to be joined again by Elmer Wayne
Henley Junior in just a little bit. He was the
focus of their book, The Serial Killers Apprentice, and he
has agreed to come back and talk to us about prevention.
How do we help young people, especially young men, from
becoming victims of older criminals. And you know again to me,
(01:33):
all three of you just the generosity to come back
and talk so openly, I just appreciate it. So I
just want to out of the gate say thank you
before we get started. But doctor Ramsley, how are kids
so vulnerable to these predators, and especially if you could
(01:55):
talk a little bit about the adolescent brain.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Okay, well, in the past twenty years we've done a
lot with with neuroscience being able to scan brains and
see developmental aspects with What we do know is that
the prefrontal cortex and the frontal cortex that is responsible
for moral processing, moral information processing, and making key decisions
(02:24):
is immature in kids up to the age of twenty five.
So what do predators know about this? They might not
know anything about the science, but they do know the
kids want things, and kids need things, and kids don't
think too far into the future, especially about consequences, because
(02:46):
kids tend to feel immune, they tend to feel strong
and like they might know about certain situations, but it's
not going to apply to them. So they know that.
About kids. Parental provision is less than when they're not
much younger. These kids are inexperienced, They have a fairly
(03:08):
pliable morality. They can be talked into things that are
called soft limits. They have limits, but they can be enticed.
They have a fear of missing out. Thanks a lot
to social media, and they're willing to go on adventures,
they're willing to do things. If they want money, or drugs,
(03:31):
or alcohol, or or just excitement. They can be enticed
to do things that they might not ordinarily do just
to see what it's like, because they think nothing bad's
going to happen to them. So the predator knows this,
knows how to work them subtly into crossing the line
(03:53):
and then crossing another and another.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I think right out of the gate, you said something
that's so important about until the age of twenty five,
because I think a lot of people think, man, these kids,
I got them to the age eighteen. They're adults. You know,
they're on their own now, but you can't let them.
You're put off the gas until after they're done with college.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Well, age eighteen is it was an arbitrary number picked
and it was picked well before we do any that
we have the knowledge we have now about nerves, science
and the adolescent brain, and now we are beginning to
realize that the choices they make and the ways they
make these choices are very different from that of adults.
(04:37):
And so that age eighteen doesn't really make any difference
in some kids who are highly traumatized. They come out
of difficult homes, they've been afused, they've been neglected, they're
even more vulnerable. So this idea that once they hit
eighteen they're adults just doesn't work. It might work for
a very few kids, but for the most part, that image, sure,
(05:00):
it is physiological and.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Tracy you developed a relationship with Lane's mom, which I
thought was so brilliant. How important are generational relationships in
crime reduction?
Speaker 5 (05:15):
I think generally when I've got three children, and every
child needs to have several adults in their lives to
guide the process for different reasons, different levels of trust,
on different occasions and circumstances that kids come into. And
so I believe that given the specific Henley family dynamic,
(05:41):
where you have Mary who's a devoted mother, but she's
in a perilous situation and her attention can't help but
be misdirected and redirected to all sorts of different children.
She's got four of them, she's got an abusive husband,
she's got a mother she's trying to take care of,
and eventually, if all those adults are caught in a conundrum,
(06:05):
those children are just flailing around they're not getting instruction
about how to behave appropriately, how to socialize appropriately, and
to have a kind of moral base. That's what adults
should be doing for children. A lot of times, it's
just impossible given the circumstances, though.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
And y'all we are going to the source. Welcome back, Wayne.
I appreciate you coming back to Zone seven. Oh well,
I just wanted to tell you your generosity and your
willingness to share just your story and your honesty, especially
(06:48):
in crime prevention, is just appreciated.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I don't think it's not all.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I can do. I don't think it's enough.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Last time you said something that has stayed with me,
you said you don't earn trust, someone gives it to you.
Can you explain a little more about how you feel
about that and how it relates to preventing crime.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Give trust not long, which shows faith in them and
accompetence in.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Them, which which is helps mold it within the help
it within that person. Because if you have faith in me,
I'm likely more likely to try to live up to
that faith, and I'm going to continue to do.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Things that will make you want to trust me.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
It's not something that just happens that's faith when you
get when you give someone trust, you have a faith
in them. It's feel like the pair that no one
hears them. Kids feel like that no one trust them.
Kids feel like that no one respects their judgments. And
the granted that their judgments are often and sure, but
(08:03):
if they feel like that they can talk to someone, someone.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Who has given them, has given them taken them. When
they can trust who they can talk to.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
That someone, they're open to hearing what they have said.
The trusting their their own processes.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And doctor Ramslin, you talk about the predator's eye and
how predators can groom. Can you talk about that and
give maybe some examples.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Okay, the predator's i is akin to what is sports
psychology is called the quiet eye, and that's an enhanced
visual perception that comes from heightened focus and from practice
for items in the environment that they particularly want that
they're they're homing in on. The eye brings them the
(08:54):
most relevant information for them optimal response and it's like
they develop the sixth sense. In the book, we talk
about the murder like like the radar. It's the murder
where they can sense the type of person that they
can bring into their you know, under their control. And
(09:15):
but the way they they do that with victims is
first they'll groom the community first. They'll they'll get a
sense of why they should be trusted with kids. They
make they'll make themselves likable like that's that's how Dean
Coral did it. He was like a big brother. He
got parents of these kids to like him and trust
(09:38):
him and believe whatever he said. He was giving kids
rise to the beach or to to the movies, he
was letting them hang out at his place. He was supplying,
supposedly supplying them with, you know, just fun things to do.
When it back, he was giving them drugs and alcohol
and money for sexual favors. But the pair didn't know that.
(10:01):
And a predator today might come into the community in
a position of trust, like a boy scout leader or
a youth pastor teacher or someone who tutors kids in
their home, and they will always extend themselves as this,
this is a help for parents, this is something good,
(10:22):
and they will will not seem creepy that they will
seem very likable, very trustworthy. They'll come with credentials, perhaps
educational credentials or other side. So it's some credentials that
people that will get people to trust them. So they're
growing the whole community, so that if a child then
(10:44):
wants to complain about something they're doing and bring us
to the attention of adults, the adults are already kind
of primed to say, oh, you know, not that person,
and to not believe the child because they are already
convinced by the predator that he or she is a
good person.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I have never heard it put that way that the
community was being groomed. Myself said, they're con artists. They
did an oakie dough, They pulled the wool over our eyes, whatever,
whether it's a deacon, a preacher, the scout leader. You
talked about teachers, but the way you just broke that down,
(11:27):
were missing it.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And of course we don't want to suspect everybody in
these positions, but this is what predators do. They find
the positions that they know people automatically instinctively trust, and
they put themselves there.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Tracy, you talk about that blurred line between a victim
and an accomplice. I mean that's something that people have
got to be aware of and recognize that for what
it is. Talk a little bit about that for me.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Let's say that all of the things that we're talking
about might have come to a header each of them
where we've got kids who are not being heard. We've
got a predator in the community who has groomed other
adults to believe them and not that child, and their
(12:20):
goals within that whole dynamic are to exploit that child,
either to abuse them or to get them to abuse
somebody else. And so when Wayne enters into that dynamic,
basically he doesn't have the community on his side because
he's being doubted. He has somebody who is focused solely
(12:44):
on his insecurities, low self esteem, all of his doubts,
all of his immaturity, and he is going to be
vulnerable to that predator. So then when that predator says
I want you to go out and get some other
victims for me, or that predator is going to direct
him to do things that are at odds with what
(13:05):
he believed, he doesn't have enough of a foundation to
prevent going deeper into that relationship because that individual, that predator,
has supplanted every other force in his life and he's
too young to know. I'm out of my depth. I
don't understand what's going on, but I don't know what
(13:27):
that is. And so when we're mature, oftentimes we get
the language for situations, romantic relationships, negotiating business. We're able
over time to give ourselves the ability to navigate difficult
situations and negotiate them. When you're at the age of fourteen,
(13:51):
fifteen years old, if you think back to what you
were like, and that's all of us. What we were
like when we were fifteen, did not have the resources
that we have today. And so that partator is going
to win every time.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Sub planted that hit me, both of those you please,
But what Captor.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And and Cursy have both said in that the partative
grooms entire community, not just a child, but it also
sets up a future vision in the afrobat we as
a society. Uh.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
And all three of there dis obmitted that the adults,
adults from the community were groomed, They had too over
our eyes, they were glued, they were printed. Uh don't
we don't deal with the child with pant in mind.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
We automatically assume that the child.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Is responsible, he is cumfortable, he should pay for his crimes,
even though we admit the part of the the community,
we don't admit that he pulls a child.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
And it's longness.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
We're as a society is doing that the child, even
if he has enough.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
To shoot to realize the wrongness, it's easy.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
And what's going to happen to him when he goes
to the police is that it doesn't matter anymore. They
are going to bring the hammer down on me. Why
do we admit that adults can be pulled with the child?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Nott? Why can the adults excuse himself.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Or not seeing the truth that we would give the
child a lot of sentence.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
It makes no sense to me.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Must let Wayne, that is one thing my son hears
on this podcast that he can take to work with him.
That's the most just in your faith and accurate statement.
I've heard that if every parent that dropped their child
off at the Scout meeting could be fooled, how could
(16:06):
that child not be absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
But we don't deal with it like that, I said
not to you are the public that we have no
circumstances consider a child under eighteen, if not under twenty five,
as an adult with prostitution. It topples in my mind.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I don't understand it.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And Wayne, are there other like signals and signs things
that we should be looking.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
For or look for changes in the in the the
young person's normal activities and lifestyle. Look for changes in
their sleep, feeling away from friends and family.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Too much focus on the.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
What the cursor. Uh, And I can't emphasize this enough.
When the when the young person comes and tries to
talk to you, they're gonna be editing. They're gonna they're
not gonna think. They're not gonna be sure of what
I'm trying to say. They're not gonna be sure what's
going on it somewhere trying to talk to.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
You and immediately says, never mind until I forget about it.
It's nothing.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
No, that's not true. You did to respond the way
they they needed you to, and they're immgally gonna fall
back because they're already assure themselves to be aware of that.
So that you can said, don't want to hold time
out restaurant over.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
And can I just say something to further that my
rule in this has been a concern, you know, with
sex trafficking being an aspect of this case. Here we are,
we're coming up to the Super Bowl Game and this
is when the largest event for child sex trafficking occurs,
(18:05):
and a lot of people can't even process that We're
going to the Super Bowl, We're going to have wings
and pizza, We're going to be watching the two best
football teams.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Play in this nation.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
And in the meantime, you are going to have the
most children trafficked and sexually abused at any other than
any other event during the year. And so when you
think about the reality of that, where do these kids
come from? Where do these networks come from? It's understanding
(18:38):
further to the conversation that we're having that you've got
a child who is vulnerable, You've got a community that's
looking the other way, you've got a parent that doesn't
understand the possibilities, and everybody walks into that blind and
it's that child that's going to pay. Certainly that will
have a knock on effect. This case had a huge
(18:59):
knock on effect at the time. But it's kind of
maybe a reminder that, you know, we're finally starting to
recognize human child sexual labor trafficking. When we sit down
in the restroom on a plane, we can see that
signage that says, if you're a victim of human trafficking,
(19:21):
feel free to tell you somebody on this plane and
you know, we need to be a little bit more aware.
I think during this period of time, it just never
occurred to anybody that we had a massive sex trafficking ring.
And it's only later buried in documents, government documents that
(19:41):
are hundreds of pages long, that you see the recognition
that this case is tied to a sex trafficking ring.
And I find it just very important to then understand
how small when Henley is in this equation, how much
money is being made by all these traffickers.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Well, I want to I want people to understanding it's
not just to get them girls.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
They're being packed.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
We were treated to think that, you know, because when
you think of when people speak of human crafting, they
speaking the girls being major prostitute themselves. They thinking girls
being made.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
To sell grums.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's not just the girls, and it's.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
It's every bit uh the boys. The boys are used.
The boys are abused, uh, and even more scared to
talk about it than the girl because their manhood is involved.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
And they feel like that I saying well you know,
I yeah, I was handled down at you. It's like
a girl that somehow know their manhood is going to
be forever punished, so we have to be aware with it.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Some boys too, and Wade, do you think the internet
and people blackmailing young people saying that they're going to
publish something, post something, how does that factor in?
Speaker 3 (21:06):
I would think when he didn't. Of course, again, these
are these are young adults. There kids, but they're they're
also young adults who are trying to establish themselves, who
are trying to get people to see them and say
envisioned themselves as society tells. And they're supposed to go
in through and you want someone come and says, you
(21:28):
know what, I'm gonna FicT your work. Everybody knows that
you are have.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Always been this when you've almost done that or that's
scary for a young person, and kids especially are aware
and you've heard the times to intergate it forever. That's
about afficting.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Them now, Doctor Ramslin, y'all, I added a checklist at
the end of the book where you offer tips to
parents and teachers and counselors. Can you give us a
few of them?
Speaker 4 (22:01):
But yes, I have a long list, so I won't
go through all of them, of course, but certainly you're
watching the kids for certain signals like app changes and
appetite changes in sleep, seeming to be troubled about something withdrawing,
So those that's one of the things. But you're also
(22:22):
you have to be aware of adults who spend most
of their time with kids and don't invite other adults
to be part of that, because that is what we
see a lot with these predators who are going after kids.
Teach the kids about growing behavior and the importance of
(22:42):
telling somebody if it happens. So you talk with them
about the idea of harmful secrets and that adults would
not be asking them to keep secrets like this, because
that's one of the predators moves is don't this is
our secret. If this gets out, something something bad's going
(23:03):
to happen to your family, or something bad's going to
happen to your sister or you know, subth like that.
And so you discuss with kids the concept of respect, consent,
and gut feeling, so that the kids know how to react,
know how to react early in the process, and try
(23:24):
to get it stopped.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Wayne, I'm going to give you the last word. You're
the ultimate expert here. You got pulled into murder when
you were a kid. Right now, you live twenty four
to seven with criminals who try to con other criminals,
especially young and weak inmates. So I'm just going to
ask you, how do we save them?
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Well, person's got to answer. Education and ad answer, understanding
of answer and call them with your answer. They coming
here and it's we're having it's it's what it will.
Just still be quiet, mindful business. That's not the it
works the ganger.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
The other predators are randoms and they continue what they
were doing in here.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
So no, some young young people, person's not the answer. Uh.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
And you when I was kid and I want one,
we're all kids.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
If you'll remember, h if a young guy, a boy
was continuing to get in trouble you in the military,
you remember that because jut opportunity in vitory military. That
was a good answer.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Maybe not to be maybe we could do better. But
but persons not the answer. You offic not to answer.
And we we we need to teach the young people
because if had I known where you.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Now, I would have want police. The vast majority of
police aren't the pantcast that you see on t V,
after the hard asses that you see on TV.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
They're just other people.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
In the community, kinder to keep the community ship, go
to police.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Because if anyone understands what's going on with you, it's
gonna be a cop said, I don't know. I don't
know the one answer.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I think it's gonna be a whole lot of different answers.
But the first and promotion is going to read we
as a society, we as individuals must be involved. Doesn't
matter if somebody else's kids, does matter that you don't
have any kids. We must be involved. It was never a.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Trite uh saying when you said raised the children's community prayer.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
It is amen, and I can't agree with you. More education, communication,
and involvement right on dramsling any last well, I think the.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
Book, when we decided to write this, had a lot
to do with Wayne wanting to get this message out
because clearly, despite being an accomplice to a serial killer,
he was also a victim pulled into it, leveraged into it,
and he did try telling people they did not listen
(26:20):
to him, and that's I think one of the most
important parts of what he has wanted to get across
is you have to listen to the kids, even if
it goes against somebody who seems to be a great guy.
Have to listen, you have to investigate, you have to
explore the possibility and be open to it. And I
(26:42):
think that's a lot of this could have been avoided
had somebody listened.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
Yeah, that is definitely true. I am just very happy
that this story is getting out. I think that it
has a lot of lessons for today. This is not
just lost to history in the nineteen seven is very current.
And you know, I think that the longer you know,
I exist as a person in the world, the more
(27:10):
I realize that human connection, that love, that respect, It
is just so essentially at the base of our existence
and our happiness. And I think that people have somehow
traded that off, you know, in some ways, and it
really is an inescapable truth. And I think that further
(27:31):
to Wayne's point, you're bringing children into this world. If
you are you know, somebody who is responsible for children,
you know, you are their guide to the rest of
their lives, and it's just so important to take that seriously.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
And Wayne, I'm going to tell you and I are
both in our sixties, and I got less in front
of me that I got behind me, you know what
I mean? And It is just a wonderful thing that
you are choosing to try to help people in the
situation you're in, the history that you had, the mistreatment
(28:10):
that you received. So I again just want to tell
you thank you for using this part of your life
to try to save somebody.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I appreciate that, but.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I don't think that there's not much anybody's life. You
have one minute last you turn out contributing to to
the people around you, and it doesn't matter whether you're
in prison or or.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
A convent or beds.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
You can contribute to a better life for everybody who
you should try, and I appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Giving me a chance to try.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote. I have to accept that
any child, because that's what I was. Any child could
be manipulated. Given the right buttons were pushed, and Dean
pushed all my buttons. Wayne Henley on the Zone seven podcast.
(29:15):
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
Wayne's calling now an inmate at Keelford Units.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
This call is being here and.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
To accept this free.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Call Press one y'all tonight is an important part two.
Tonight we're joined again by the brilliant doctor Catherine Ramslin,
who y'all know is an author, professor and serial killer expert.
The peerless Tracy Ullman, who's the documentary producer, director and
(00:40):
writer and known for her expert research skills. Together Dtor
Ramsln and Tracy Ulmen wrote the book The Serial Killers Apprentice,
the true story of how Houston's deadliest murderer turns a
kid into a killing machine. Ladies, welcome, Welcome back to
(01:03):
Zone seven.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Erry, happy to be here, thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
And we're going to be joined again by Elmer Wayne
Henley Junior in just a little bit. He was the
focus of their book, The Serial Killers Apprentice, and he
has agreed to come back and talk to us about prevention.
How do we help young people, especially young men, from
becoming victims of older criminals. And you know again to me,
(01:33):
all three of you just the generosity to come back
and talk so openly, I just appreciate it. So I
just want to out of the gate say thank you
before we get started. But doctor Ramsley, how are kids
so vulnerable to these predators, and especially if you could
(01:55):
talk a little bit about the adolescent brain.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Okay, well, in the past twenty years we've done a
lot with with neuroscience being able to scan brains and
see developmental aspects with What we do know is that
the prefrontal cortex and the frontal cortex that is responsible
for moral processing, moral information processing, and making key decisions
(02:24):
is immature in kids up to the age of twenty five.
So what do predators know about this? They might not
know anything about the science, but they do know the
kids want things, and kids need things, and kids don't
think too far into the future, especially about consequences, because
(02:46):
kids tend to feel immune, they tend to feel strong
and like they might know about certain situations, but it's
not going to apply to them. So they know that.
About kids. Parental provision is less than when they're not
much younger. These kids are inexperienced, They have a fairly
(03:08):
pliable morality. They can be talked into things that are
called soft limits. They have limits, but they can be enticed.
They have a fear of missing out. Thanks a lot
to social media, and they're willing to go on adventures,
they're willing to do things. If they want money, or drugs,
(03:31):
or alcohol, or or just excitement. They can be enticed
to do things that they might not ordinarily do just
to see what it's like, because they think nothing bad's
going to happen to them. So the predator knows this,
knows how to work them subtly into crossing the line
(03:53):
and then crossing another and another.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I think right out of the gate, you said something
that's so important about until the age of twenty five,
because I think a lot of people think, man, these kids,
I got them to the age eighteen. They're adults. You know,
they're on their own now, but you can't let them.
You're put off the gas until after they're done with college.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Well, age eighteen is it was an arbitrary number picked
and it was picked well before we do any that
we have the knowledge we have now about nerves, science
and the adolescent brain, and now we are beginning to
realize that the choices they make and the ways they
make these choices are very different from that of adults.
(04:37):
And so that age eighteen doesn't really make any difference
in some kids who are highly traumatized. They come out
of difficult homes, they've been afused, they've been neglected, they're
even more vulnerable. So this idea that once they hit
eighteen they're adults just doesn't work. It might work for
a very few kids, but for the most part, that image, sure,
(05:00):
it is physiological and.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Tracy you developed a relationship with Lane's mom, which I
thought was so brilliant. How important are generational relationships in
crime reduction?
Speaker 5 (05:15):
I think generally when I've got three children, and every
child needs to have several adults in their lives to
guide the process for different reasons, different levels of trust,
on different occasions and circumstances that kids come into. And
so I believe that given the specific Henley family dynamic,
(05:41):
where you have Mary who's a devoted mother, but she's
in a perilous situation and her attention can't help but
be misdirected and redirected to all sorts of different children.
She's got four of them, she's got an abusive husband,
she's got a mother she's trying to take care of,
and eventually, if all those adults are caught in a conundrum,
(06:05):
those children are just flailing around they're not getting instruction
about how to behave appropriately, how to socialize appropriately, and
to have a kind of moral base. That's what adults
should be doing for children. A lot of times, it's
just impossible given the circumstances, though.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
And y'all we are going to the source. Welcome back, Wayne.
I appreciate you coming back to Zone seven. Oh well,
I just wanted to tell you your generosity and your
willingness to share just your story and your honesty, especially
(06:48):
in crime prevention, is just appreciated.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I don't think it's not all.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I can do. I don't think it's enough.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Last time you said something that has stayed with me,
you said you don't earn trust, someone gives it to you.
Can you explain a little more about how you feel
about that and how it relates to preventing crime.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Give trust not long, which shows faith in them and
accompetence in.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Them, which which is helps mold it within the help
it within that person. Because if you have faith in me,
I'm likely more likely to try to live up to
that faith, and I'm going to continue to do.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Things that will make you want to trust me.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
It's not something that just happens that's faith when you
get when you give someone trust, you have a faith
in them. It's feel like the pair that no one
hears them. Kids feel like that no one trust them.
Kids feel like that no one respects their judgments. And
the granted that their judgments are often and sure, but
(08:03):
if they feel like that they can talk to someone, someone.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Who has given them, has given them taken them. When
they can trust who they can talk to.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
That someone, they're open to hearing what they have said.
The trusting their their own processes.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And doctor Ramslin, you talk about the predator's eye and
how predators can groom. Can you talk about that and
give maybe some examples.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Okay, the predator's i is akin to what is sports
psychology is called the quiet eye, and that's an enhanced
visual perception that comes from heightened focus and from practice
for items in the environment that they particularly want that
they're they're homing in on. The eye brings them the
(08:54):
most relevant information for them optimal response and it's like
they develop the sixth sense. In the book, we talk
about the murder like like the radar. It's the murder
where they can sense the type of person that they
can bring into their you know, under their control. And
(09:15):
but the way they they do that with victims is
first they'll groom the community first. They'll they'll get a
sense of why they should be trusted with kids. They
make they'll make themselves likable like that's that's how Dean
Coral did it. He was like a big brother. He
got parents of these kids to like him and trust
(09:38):
him and believe whatever he said. He was giving kids
rise to the beach or to to the movies, he
was letting them hang out at his place. He was supplying,
supposedly supplying them with, you know, just fun things to do.
When it back, he was giving them drugs and alcohol
and money for sexual favors. But the pair didn't know that.
(10:01):
And a predator today might come into the community in
a position of trust, like a boy scout leader or
a youth pastor teacher or someone who tutors kids in
their home, and they will always extend themselves as this,
this is a help for parents, this is something good,
(10:22):
and they will will not seem creepy that they will
seem very likable, very trustworthy. They'll come with credentials, perhaps
educational credentials or other side. So it's some credentials that
people that will get people to trust them. So they're
growing the whole community, so that if a child then
(10:44):
wants to complain about something they're doing and bring us
to the attention of adults, the adults are already kind
of primed to say, oh, you know, not that person,
and to not believe the child because they are already
convinced by the predator that he or she is a
good person.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I have never heard it put that way that the
community was being groomed. Myself said, they're con artists. They
did an oakie dough, They pulled the wool over our eyes, whatever,
whether it's a deacon, a preacher, the scout leader. You
talked about teachers, but the way you just broke that down,
(11:27):
were missing it.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And of course we don't want to suspect everybody in
these positions, but this is what predators do. They find
the positions that they know people automatically instinctively trust, and
they put themselves there.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Tracy, you talk about that blurred line between a victim
and an accomplice. I mean that's something that people have
got to be aware of and recognize that for what
it is. Talk a little bit about that for me.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Let's say that all of the things that we're talking
about might have come to a header each of them
where we've got kids who are not being heard. We've
got a predator in the community who has groomed other
adults to believe them and not that child, and their
(12:20):
goals within that whole dynamic are to exploit that child,
either to abuse them or to get them to abuse
somebody else. And so when Wayne enters into that dynamic,
basically he doesn't have the community on his side because
he's being doubted. He has somebody who is focused solely
(12:44):
on his insecurities, low self esteem, all of his doubts,
all of his immaturity, and he is going to be
vulnerable to that predator. So then when that predator says
I want you to go out and get some other
victims for me, or that predator is going to direct
him to do things that are at odds with what
(13:05):
he believed, he doesn't have enough of a foundation to
prevent going deeper into that relationship because that individual, that predator,
has supplanted every other force in his life and he's
too young to know. I'm out of my depth. I
don't understand what's going on, but I don't know what
(13:27):
that is. And so when we're mature, oftentimes we get
the language for situations, romantic relationships, negotiating business. We're able
over time to give ourselves the ability to navigate difficult
situations and negotiate them. When you're at the age of fourteen,
(13:51):
fifteen years old, if you think back to what you
were like, and that's all of us. What we were
like when we were fifteen, did not have the resources
that we have today. And so that partator is going
to win every time.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Sub planted that hit me, both of those you please,
But what Captor.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And and Cursy have both said in that the partative
grooms entire community, not just a child, but it also
sets up a future vision in the afrobat we as
a society. Uh.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
And all three of there dis obmitted that the adults,
adults from the community were groomed, They had too over
our eyes, they were glued, they were printed. Uh don't
we don't deal with the child with pant in mind.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
We automatically assume that the child.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Is responsible, he is cumfortable, he should pay for his crimes,
even though we admit the part of the the community,
we don't admit that he pulls a child.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
And it's longness.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
We're as a society is doing that the child, even
if he has enough.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
To shoot to realize the wrongness, it's easy.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
And what's going to happen to him when he goes
to the police is that it doesn't matter anymore. They
are going to bring the hammer down on me. Why
do we admit that adults can be pulled with the child?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Nott? Why can the adults excuse himself.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Or not seeing the truth that we would give the
child a lot of sentence.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
It makes no sense to me.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Must let Wayne, that is one thing my son hears
on this podcast that he can take to work with him.
That's the most just in your faith and accurate statement.
I've heard that if every parent that dropped their child
off at the Scout meeting could be fooled, how could
(16:06):
that child not be absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
But we don't deal with it like that, I said
not to you are the public that we have no
circumstances consider a child under eighteen, if not under twenty five,
as an adult with prostitution. It topples in my mind.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I don't understand it.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And Wayne, are there other like signals and signs things
that we should be looking.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
For or look for changes in the in the the
young person's normal activities and lifestyle. Look for changes in
their sleep, feeling away from friends and family.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Too much focus on the.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
What the cursor. Uh, And I can't emphasize this enough.
When the when the young person comes and tries to
talk to you, they're gonna be editing. They're gonna they're
not gonna think. They're not gonna be sure of what
I'm trying to say. They're not gonna be sure what's
going on it somewhere trying to talk to.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
You and immediately says, never mind until I forget about it.
It's nothing.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
No, that's not true. You did to respond the way
they they needed you to, and they're immgally gonna fall
back because they're already assure themselves to be aware of that.
So that you can said, don't want to hold time
out restaurant over.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
And can I just say something to further that my
rule in this has been a concern, you know, with
sex trafficking being an aspect of this case. Here we are,
we're coming up to the Super Bowl Game and this
is when the largest event for child sex trafficking occurs,
(18:05):
and a lot of people can't even process that We're
going to the Super Bowl, We're going to have wings
and pizza, We're going to be watching the two best
football teams.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Play in this nation.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
And in the meantime, you are going to have the
most children trafficked and sexually abused at any other than
any other event during the year. And so when you
think about the reality of that, where do these kids
come from? Where do these networks come from? It's understanding
(18:38):
further to the conversation that we're having that you've got
a child who is vulnerable, You've got a community that's
looking the other way, you've got a parent that doesn't
understand the possibilities, and everybody walks into that blind and
it's that child that's going to pay. Certainly that will
have a knock on effect. This case had a huge
(18:59):
knock on effect at the time. But it's kind of
maybe a reminder that, you know, we're finally starting to
recognize human child sexual labor trafficking. When we sit down
in the restroom on a plane, we can see that
signage that says, if you're a victim of human trafficking,
(19:21):
feel free to tell you somebody on this plane and
you know, we need to be a little bit more aware.
I think during this period of time, it just never
occurred to anybody that we had a massive sex trafficking ring.
And it's only later buried in documents, government documents that
(19:41):
are hundreds of pages long, that you see the recognition
that this case is tied to a sex trafficking ring.
And I find it just very important to then understand
how small when Henley is in this equation, how much
money is being made by all these traffickers.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Well, I want to I want people to understanding it's
not just to get them girls.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
They're being packed.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
We were treated to think that, you know, because when
you think of when people speak of human crafting, they
speaking the girls being major prostitute themselves. They thinking girls
being made.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
To sell grums.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's not just the girls, and it's.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
It's every bit uh the boys. The boys are used.
The boys are abused, uh, and even more scared to
talk about it than the girl because their manhood is involved.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
And they feel like that I saying well you know,
I yeah, I was handled down at you. It's like
a girl that somehow know their manhood is going to
be forever punished, so we have to be aware with it.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Some boys too, and Wade, do you think the internet
and people blackmailing young people saying that they're going to
publish something, post something, how does that factor in?
Speaker 3 (21:06):
I would think when he didn't. Of course, again, these
are these are young adults. There kids, but they're they're
also young adults who are trying to establish themselves, who
are trying to get people to see them and say
envisioned themselves as society tells. And they're supposed to go
in through and you want someone come and says, you
(21:28):
know what, I'm gonna FicT your work. Everybody knows that
you are have.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Always been this when you've almost done that or that's
scary for a young person, and kids especially are aware
and you've heard the times to intergate it forever. That's
about afficting.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Them now, Doctor Ramslin, y'all, I added a checklist at
the end of the book where you offer tips to
parents and teachers and counselors. Can you give us a
few of them?
Speaker 4 (22:01):
But yes, I have a long list, so I won't
go through all of them, of course, but certainly you're
watching the kids for certain signals like app changes and
appetite changes in sleep, seeming to be troubled about something withdrawing,
So those that's one of the things. But you're also
(22:22):
you have to be aware of adults who spend most
of their time with kids and don't invite other adults
to be part of that, because that is what we
see a lot with these predators who are going after kids.
Teach the kids about growing behavior and the importance of
(22:42):
telling somebody if it happens. So you talk with them
about the idea of harmful secrets and that adults would
not be asking them to keep secrets like this, because
that's one of the predators moves is don't this is
our secret. If this gets out, something something bad's going
(23:03):
to happen to your family, or something bad's going to
happen to your sister or you know, subth like that.
And so you discuss with kids the concept of respect, consent,
and gut feeling, so that the kids know how to react,
know how to react early in the process, and try
(23:24):
to get it stopped.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Wayne, I'm going to give you the last word. You're
the ultimate expert here. You got pulled into murder when
you were a kid. Right now, you live twenty four
to seven with criminals who try to con other criminals,
especially young and weak inmates. So I'm just going to
ask you, how do we save them?
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Well, person's got to answer. Education and ad answer, understanding
of answer and call them with your answer. They coming
here and it's we're having it's it's what it will.
Just still be quiet, mindful business. That's not the it
works the ganger.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
The other predators are randoms and they continue what they
were doing in here.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
So no, some young young people, person's not the answer. Uh.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
And you when I was kid and I want one,
we're all kids.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
If you'll remember, h if a young guy, a boy
was continuing to get in trouble you in the military,
you remember that because jut opportunity in vitory military. That
was a good answer.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Maybe not to be maybe we could do better. But
but persons not the answer. You offic not to answer.
And we we we need to teach the young people
because if had I known where you.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Now, I would have want police. The vast majority of
police aren't the pantcast that you see on t V,
after the hard asses that you see on TV.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
They're just other people.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
In the community, kinder to keep the community ship, go
to police.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Because if anyone understands what's going on with you, it's
gonna be a cop said, I don't know. I don't
know the one answer.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I think it's gonna be a whole lot of different answers.
But the first and promotion is going to read we
as a society, we as individuals must be involved. Doesn't
matter if somebody else's kids, does matter that you don't
have any kids. We must be involved. It was never a.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Trite uh saying when you said raised the children's community prayer.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
It is amen, and I can't agree with you. More education, communication,
and involvement right on dramsling any last well, I think the.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
Book, when we decided to write this, had a lot
to do with Wayne wanting to get this message out
because clearly, despite being an accomplice to a serial killer,
he was also a victim pulled into it, leveraged into it,
and he did try telling people they did not listen
(26:20):
to him, and that's I think one of the most
important parts of what he has wanted to get across
is you have to listen to the kids, even if
it goes against somebody who seems to be a great guy.
Have to listen, you have to investigate, you have to
explore the possibility and be open to it. And I
(26:42):
think that's a lot of this could have been avoided
had somebody listened.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
Yeah, that is definitely true. I am just very happy
that this story is getting out. I think that it
has a lot of lessons for today. This is not
just lost to history in the nineteen seven is very current.
And you know, I think that the longer you know,
I exist as a person in the world, the more
(27:10):
I realize that human connection, that love, that respect, It
is just so essentially at the base of our existence
and our happiness. And I think that people have somehow
traded that off, you know, in some ways, and it
really is an inescapable truth. And I think that further
(27:31):
to Wayne's point, you're bringing children into this world. If
you are you know, somebody who is responsible for children,
you know, you are their guide to the rest of
their lives, and it's just so important to take that seriously.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
And Wayne, I'm going to tell you and I are
both in our sixties, and I got less in front
of me that I got behind me, you know what
I mean? And It is just a wonderful thing that
you are choosing to try to help people in the
situation you're in, the history that you had, the mistreatment
(28:10):
that you received. So I again just want to tell
you thank you for using this part of your life
to try to save somebody.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I appreciate that, but.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I don't think that there's not much anybody's life. You
have one minute last you turn out contributing to to
the people around you, and it doesn't matter whether you're
in prison or or.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
A convent or beds.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
You can contribute to a better life for everybody who
you should try, and I appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Giving me a chance to try.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote. I have to accept that
any child, because that's what I was. Any child could
be manipulated. Given the right buttons were pushed, and Dean
pushed all my buttons. Wayne Henley on the Zone seven podcast.
(29:15):
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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