July 2, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of Zone 7, CSI Sheryl McCollum brings together a powerhouse panel to unpack the news that Bryan Kohberger has agreed to plead guilty in the murders of Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen, and Kaylee Goncalves. Retired NYPD Sergeant Joe Giacalone, journalist Susan Hendricks, and defense attorneys Linda Kenney Baden and Kirk Nurmi break down what this plea deal means for investigators, prosecutors, and, most importantly, the families. From the strength of the evidence to the emotional toll of avoiding trial, the panel gets real about trauma, strategy, and the search for justice.
Joseph L. Giacalone is a retired NYPD sergeant, criminal justice educator, and nationally recognized expert in policing and investigations. With over 20 years on the job, he now teaches criminal investigations and appears regularly in the media to weigh in on high-profile cases. He’s also the author of two widely used textbooks. Connect with Joseph at his website and on his podcast True Crime with the Sarge.
Susan Hendricks is an investigative journalist and host of Headline Crime. Known for her fearless reporting, she brings national attention to overlooked cases and failures in the justice system. She regularly covers courtroom developments and advocates for victims. Find Susan on IG @susan_hendricks or X @SusanHendricks.
Linda Kenney Baden is a former prosecutor and veteran defense attorney with decades of experience in high-profile trials, including Phil Spector, Casey Anthony, and Aaron Hernandez. She contributes to Law & Crime and the Huffington Post, and co-hosts legal coverage on Justice Served TV. Connect with Linda Kenney Baden at her website and on X @KenneyBaden.
Kirk Nurmi is a former criminal defense attorney, author, and speaker focused on justice reform, ethics, and personal transformation. Best known for representing Jodi Arias, he now shares his experience through writing and public speaking. Find him on Instagram @nurmiunchained_ and at kirknurmi.com.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome to Zone 7 – Sheryl introduces the panel and the gravity of the plea deal
- (1:00) Joe Giacalone reflects on the investigation and law enforcement response
- (3:45) Susan Hendricks shares how Ethan Chapin’s family is coping with the plea deal
- (8:30) Linda Kenney Baden on defense optics, plea motivations, and the hidden cost of a trial
- (10:30) “He becomes the stalked, not the stalker” – life in prison without protective isolation
- (12:30) Kirk Nurmi opens up about the emotional toll of defending capital cases
- (16:45) What the defense may be trying to keep hidden from public view
- (18:15) Why the lack of answers may make this plea deal harder to accept
- (20:30) Behind the scenes: how mitigation packets influence plea negotiations
- (22:30) The ripple effect: how this case has impacted prosecutors, families, and even journalists
- (25:00) Kohberger’s plea may protect his family—but will he ever tell the truth?
- (27:45) “There is no punishment medieval enough.” – Cheryl on the impossibility of true justice
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Brian Cooberger has agreed to take a plea deal, y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
He will plead guilty to.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Murdering Xana, Ethan, Kaylee and Maddie. Now, a lot of
folks are shocked by this, but you know, we've been
talking over and over and I've said the same thing.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
The defense has nothing.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
They have zero that can counter the evidence against it.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
The DNA, the knife, sheep, his car, his cell phone.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I mean, it just goes on and own and they
cannot get rid of it no matter what they've tried.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And y'all, I just the group we've got tonight. I
am so grateful.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
But we have got Sergeant Joe Jackaloone, NYPD, retired side
cold case, and I want to start with him.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I cannot help but think of so many people involved
with this case. But the detectives, they have been on
this case for years. We all know the investigation does
not stop at a rest.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
What do you think they thought when they got the news?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Oh boy?
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Yeah, Just from personal experience, the initial stages when you
get when you get notified by the district attorney about
something like this is frustration, even somewhat anger, because you
work so hard that puts this together, and like you said,
it just doesn't stop when you made the collar. You
just you keep on going. And now you're preparing for
court and they're studying, they're getting their their you know,
ducks in a row, and then the kind of have
(01:46):
the carpet ripped out from on them. But you know
what it's, it's it's frustrating, but it's also fleeting in
a way because a win is a win, and I
think that's you know, even though the district attorney takes
the plea and he gets that in his column, the
detectives have to pat themselves on the back too because
they made a prosecutable case, basically ironclad, So they should
(02:07):
be proud of themselves too.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
That's true. I mean, a killer is off the street
at the end of the day.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah, I mean, and he's a quadruple killer too. I
mean when you think of it that way, and from scratch,
from nothing, they were able to put this whole case
together through you know, surveillance, video, cell phone records, and
Internet records, right what I refer to as the three
forensic Horsemen, and it's and this case actually becomes you know,
part of a textbook lore and in regards to putting
(02:34):
together a prosecutable case with all these different aspects of
it and being able to make something out of nothing. Right,
when this case originally first, there was a lot of
people thought that this case would never be solved, let
alone and in a conviction.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
And that's the other thing about the police work. He
had no connection to any of the victims, and they
were able to locate him and arrest him in seven weeks.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
That's pretty extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Yes, And I remember the day, the day before they
made the arrest, I was doing a news nation and
the chief was sitting in a chair and he was
sitting in there. He was leaning back, and I actually
said right there and knew. I said, that's a man
that doesn't have any worries. I think they have an
arrest coming soon. And it was just from the you know,
the nonverbal communication. I mean, this was a very stressful
case and then all of a sudden, the chief was
(03:21):
very relaxed. So listen, they need to pat themselves on
the back of the cops did a great job they had.
They worked well with the state partners, and they worked
well with the FBI. Unlike you see in television shows
where everybody's fighting and trying to take over. This was
a great collaboration. They put this case together, and like
I said, they made something ad enough. And and here
we are today talking about him taking a plea and
(03:43):
going to jail the rest of his life without an appeal.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Amen, and y'all we've got reporter podcaster offer Susan Hendrix
with us. Now, Susan, I got to ask you you're feeling,
but not as a reporter or a podcaster or an author,
but as a mama. I mean, the worst possible thing
(04:06):
has happened, and you gear yourself up for this trial
where you're going to face this monster and read a
victim impact statement and try to articulate what he took
from you, and then you get an email.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah, the way they were notified, I can't imagine that happening.
Getting ready to go to this trial.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
We saw it.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Cheryl in Delphie, day in and day out, being excruciating.
And as you know, Cheryl, each family heals in their
own way. If they ever fully heal, they don't. I
was lucky enough to get to know Ethan Chapin's mom, Stacy.
I reached out to her in twenty twenty three. I
was on a panel with her at Crime Con and
just a wonderful person, wonderful family, and she said, Susan,
(04:54):
we literally dropped the kids off at school and my
husband and I they were triplets and Hunter, and we
high fived and said we did it. And she said
and then of course the most horrific thing that no
one ever imagines. She said, we'd watch the news that
happens to other people. It doesn't happen to us, but
it does. And to turn it around, she said, look,
(05:17):
what we want to do is remember Ethan. And she
described him to me as kind and sweet and fun loving,
and that reminds me of Jack. So my mind immediately
goes there my son, who's nine years old, and you think,
how would I feel to get this news? And I
do know that her family because we were talking in
twenty twenty three, and I know obviously things have changed.
(05:41):
I believe she would have been there at the trial.
But she said, I nothing will bring Ethan back. So
she is going tomorrow with her family and they support
the plea deal. How they were told is horrific. But everyone,
it's hard to kind of guess how you would be
in that situation, and hopefully none of us feel that,
(06:03):
But we don't know. Would it be to not see
Brian Coberger's face face of evil, or would it be
to face him head on as we saw with Kaylee's dad.
So it's difficult to tell, and every family heals in
a different way, but the way it was handled and
so fast, I don't even think all the family members
can get there tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
But you know, I remember sitting in the court in
Delphi and me and you and my sister Charlene, you know,
we all three have children, and we watched the families
just you just I don't know your heart breaks for them.
It's unimaginable. But I know Charlene, she was not prepared
(06:49):
for Richard Allen to be standing right there. Like when
she realized he was less than six feet from her,
just standing talking to people, she couldn't believe it, Like
why is he not almost in a cage? Why is
he not like, you know, in one of those masks
where he can't see anybody or talk to anybody. She
(07:10):
just was stunned by that. And I think in some ways,
the family's been spared, that they've been spared a trial
in the stress of testifying. They've been spared having to
watch that monster. They've been spared publicly, having to hear
about autopsies, no chance for a mistrial, no chance that
(07:31):
you're going to have a hung jury. I mean, this
is a slam dunk. He's gonna be found guilty of murder,
four of them. But at the same time, I mean, Susan,
come on an email.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
I know, And would I wonder, knock on wood, that
I ever have to feel that? But would I want
to face him? Would I want to scream at the
top of my lungs why Although we never really get
the right answer, never ever ever makes sense because that's
what people want to know, why and exactly what happened.
And that reminds me of Beth Holloway with she wanted
(08:09):
answers and she got that, and that was healing for her.
Allegedly she got it from Jurin Vanderslope. But everyone heals
differently or not, not only heels or not heels, but
gets through. It is able to get out of bed
because I remember Stacy saying it'd be easy to curl
up in a ball. I can't do that. I have
two other kids. They deserve a mom, so she had
to keep going obviously for them.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I'll tell you, y'all.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
We also have the great feigned defense attorney, Linda Kenny Bowden. Linda,
I mean, I just got to say it. His defense
attorney did her job, didn't she?
Speaker 5 (08:47):
Uh? She most certainly did. She asked for a deal
and they got the deal. According to the letter that's
been shown from one of the parents to some of
the news reporters. Quite frankly, it's a little bit, although
it doesn't Here's why it surprised me from the very beginning, Cheryl,
and I think I mentioned this to you today, is
(09:09):
that the optics of her defending him from the first
day in court were not good. She sat very far
away from him. She didn't touch him in any way.
If you look at the optics, and I think I
talked to you about this, and when I sit next
to my clients, I'm not scared of them, it looked
like she was scared of him. So I didn't think
(09:29):
the optics were very good. But she brought in a
lot of people that could help her, and I think
she also had some aces in the hole. And this
is that number one. Several of the families would not
want to see their children's visation again in the courtroom,
the blood letting in the courtroom, the brutality in the courtroom, right,
(09:52):
so you know that the families felt differently about that.
I think the other thing is you had those young women,
especially the one young woman who saw Brian Coburger leaving.
We do not know what her life is like. It
is possible that testifying for her could actually destroy her
life even more than it already has. We don't know
(10:13):
where she's at psychologically, we don't know where she's at
in her healing. And so I think that the prosecutors
understood that and that if they can get a deal
that puts him away. And this face that's scary to everybody.
I don't think any one of us is ever going
to forget his face. I mean, Ted Bundy looks like
a choir boy next to Brian Coburger. They put him
(10:35):
in prison, and he's not going to be a celebrity
in prison. He is going to be persona non grata.
He is, in my opinion, in the category of Jeffrey Dahmer,
Whitey Bulger, the pedophile priests. That's where he is. So
every single moment in prison, he will be looking behind
him and he will become the stalk, not the stalker.
(10:58):
And I think the prosecutors know that, they understand that,
and whether or not to satisfies all the families, they
decided that this is the best resolution.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
No, I think you make a great point. And I've
said the same thing about Jeffrey Dahmer. If Brian Coberger,
thanks taking the death penalty off the table has saved
his life, he could absolutely be incorrect.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
Oh yeah, oh yeah. And you know, this is we're
telling the truth here for people that don't want to
hear it. This is this is what happens, and this
is the truth. We're not saying that we want him
to be the victim in a prison assassination. We're just
saying the reality is he will be targeted as a
as somebody who has been in the news, a high
(11:42):
profile defendant who killed four innocent people, and he's going
to go into a prison system god knows which one,
but there's going to be gangs, there's going to be
a white supremacist, there's going to be different different factions
in that prison, and he may not have the protection
he thinks he has.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
That's right, and if he had been convicted with the
death penalty, he would go on death row and have
a sale all by his self.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Now, he doesn't have that protection.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
That's right. That's right. You need to have a lot
of more protection waiting for that firing squad that would
eventually happen when his appeals would eventually be denied if
he didn't die of old age first.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
And y'all, we have the one and only defense attorney,
Kurt Nurmi.
Speaker 6 (12:30):
How are you, honey, I'm doing awesome, Cheryl.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Well, I got to tell you I want to hear
from you because a lot of people don't understand the
aftermath for the defense attorney. I mean again, cases like
this affect everybody that touches it.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
It's not like you go.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Well, I saved his life, good for me, and you
move on. You have information and facts and horrific knowledge
you can't get out of your head either.
Speaker 6 (12:58):
Yeah, you know, And there's so many different moments that
come to mind when we've had this discussion. We talk
about this because you know, I dealt with the death
penalty exclusively in a death penalty hotbed of Maricopa County
here in Phoenix for several years, and I remember, you know,
(13:19):
one of my first weeks there in the death penalty
unit having to go talk to a father whose child
had not committed any other crime in his life that
his son was facing the death penalty. And I've sat
in the rooms with the defendants telling them that they're
(13:40):
facing the death penalty. And you know, going into a
case like that, that the death penalty isn't charged if
the prosecutors don't have strong evidence, they just don't seek
the death penalty, if guilt isn't presumed. The other reality
of it is, Cheryl, is that a death penalty qualified
(14:02):
jury is more likely to convict than one that's not.
So you go into this proposition with the number one
goal being to save a life. And Linda talked about
some of the attorney, you know, relationship that Brian had
with his attorney, and I think that one of the
(14:24):
things that cannot go without being mentioned is the fact
that in order to save a life, in order to
get this outcome, there has to be a relationship between
the attorney and the defendant because whatever awaits him now,
(14:45):
whatever the ills we're talking about, Linda mentioned in prison,
what have you, You've got to convince him that you've
done everything you can. You've got to show him that
you've done everything and that it if he goes to trial,
his fate will probably be death. Grow he has got
(15:06):
to trust you. He's got to believe he or she
has got to believe that every bit of work you've
done has been on their behalf. And there is an
investment in that that comes at the expense of the attorney,
right because you know, you're looking at you know, Brian Kolberg.
(15:27):
You're talking to his parents and his family and his
loved ones and maybe and I know people don't think
about this, but maybe his second grade teacher, maybe his
best friends from high school, because they could be mitigation
witnesses and there becomes an investment there that is long lasting.
And you talk about you know, one of the things
(15:49):
that happens in a lot of death penalty cases that
go to trial is a lot of the jurors have
PTSD because of what they see. They see crime scene photographs,
they see other things that they wouldn't otherwise see, and
the attorneys and the police officers and whoever different role,
(16:09):
they see a lot of that and they have to
talk about that and they have to be you know,
the police make an arrest and interrogate the defense attorney.
That's building that kind of relationship with the client, one
that hopefully leads to them taking a life. Plead is
one that really, you know, gets you close to madness,
(16:31):
close to sociocopy, whatever you want to call it, for
a long period of time. Because keep in mind, I
can't remember how many years this case is going, but
some of them extend years. And you're in that situation
with a person like Brian Colberg for years, and you
don't just wash that off and go home.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
I had heard that he made a call to his
mama after the murders, and then of course we all
know the car trip he took with his dad going
back home. They would have to testify. So I believe
exactly what you're saying. To save them from having to
do that, he has another reason to take a plea.
Speaker 6 (17:15):
That's exactly right, because you know a lot of defendants
in that situation, you uncover a lot about their life.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Right.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
We don't know what got Brian Kolberg or to the
point where he is now, and a lot of that
means digging into some awful, dirty clauses that people don't
want to open up and don't want to see exposed
in the public light, and that can be a motivating
factor as well. But going back to my point earlier,
(17:45):
the attorney has to be willing to go there. They
have to be willing to talk to these people, talk
about how Brian got there. And you know, there's some
amazingly sad stories that you hear and you connect with
on both sides of the aisle because you know, you
know on the other side that there's some grieving families
and what have you. But your job is to save
(18:08):
that life.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
The interesting thing about this to me, though, is that
if what we've seen is true, the the Coburger team
came to the prosecutors and said, you know, if you
take death off the table, we will you know, we
will plead guilty. Usually you'll sometimes see the reverse, You'll
(18:31):
see the prosecutors say, if we take death all the table,
will you plead guilty? So I don't know what it
was in the that the prosecutors felt they must felt
they must have some kind of possible weak link, And
I don't think it would be a weak link. I
think it's a concern link. For some of the witnesses
(18:52):
on that prosecution side, and maybe if I were the prosecution,
I'd say I'd accept that, but I want I want
a complete statement of accountability. I want to be able
to just like you mentioned, Holloway, I want to be
able to grill your client before because my understanding is
he's not going to have to elocute and say that
(19:14):
the project that his team will say something, or the
prosecution will say something that he sees pleading guilty, but
he's not going to have to do that full elocution
confession in court. And quite frankly, the one thing that
if I were the parents I would be wanting to
wanting is I'd want answers to my questions as to
how exactly he picked my child, how exactly my child died,
(19:39):
why did he do it, what made him do it
that night, what was it in him that caused him
to grow up like this? I'd want those answers to them.
And that's one of the things that could upset as
you see two of the families with regard to Coburger.
I had a friend, Andy Astroy. He is a well
(20:01):
known author and a producer, and all his wife was
murdered Adrian Shelley, and he actually went to the prison
after about ten years where the killer of his wife
was incarcerated, and specifically asked those questions. It was heart wrenching, heartbreaking, terrible,
but he hadn't gotten them early on and he wanted
(20:23):
to know the answer. So I think that the families
not only had their laws, they have that and that's
one of the things that's going to It won't blow
off the steal, but it's going to make this steal
harder for everyone to swallow because two of the families
aren't behind it.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Linda, that's an excellent point, Kirk, you want to weigh
in on that.
Speaker 6 (20:41):
Yeah. One of the things I was going to say,
what's common to my experience is that what typically happens
in a case like this, and we talked about the lawyer,
is that once the lawyers, if the lawyers can convince
their client, the defense attorneys can convince their client to
accept a plea offer for life, which is the most
(21:03):
typical resolution. What is delivered to the prosecutor along with
that plea is all the mitigating evidence that they have
researched that and by all the mitigating evidence that means
they basically are required to research their client's life from conception,
(21:23):
because there's any in utero issues, drugs or alcohol, feed alcohol,
cynem etc. All the way up to the day of
their sentence. They put that together is what's called the
mitigating mitigation packet, and the real issue isn't related to
the case, the underlying case. The real crust of this
(21:43):
is you might not be able to get the death
penalty because of these issues. Therefore, here's a resolution that
we have with our client, because generally, in my experience,
prosecutors aren't going to offer life unless they know that
the client is willing to accept it. So that there
is a reaching out process from the defense attorneys with
all this mitigating evidence, and then the prosecutor will go
(22:07):
to the families and some of the answers that we're
talking about. If there's psychological analysis, which there would be
in typically a mitigation packet, the prosecutor is going to
have some insight on that and certainly shouldn't be done
through email, but could obviously share that with the families
as well. So it's a little what I've experienced is
(22:28):
a little different than what Linda referenced and you.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Know, Susan, I worked with a man, John Crass, and
he was so fantastic. But he told us once we
had a real bad case coming up, and he said, listen,
sometimes you never know what happened, and sometimes you know
exactly what happened, and they're both horrible, Like there's no
(22:55):
winner if you never get an answer or if you
get an answer. And I have found him to be
absolutely accurate on that. And you know, for you, you
know you're going to be sitting in court. You're always
in court. You're you know, sometimes chasing these cases. And
I agree with what Joe was saying earlier. You don't
(23:16):
get out of this thing unscathed either. I mean, look
at how your life changed with Delphi. You went to
cover a story, fell in love with a family, and
then watch them navigate this horrific trial where they were
even accused.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Of doing it exactly.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
And I mean, that is such another level of the
world we live. And I always say, the good thing
about having a podcast here, a YouTube channel is everyone
has a voice. And the bad thing is is that
everyone has a voice. And it's just pathetic that they
are able to do that. And that's a whole other
layer of this. And I'm friends with Kirk and got
(23:55):
to know him well, and of course we covered the
Jodi Arias trial. But as you were talking, Kirkham thinking,
oh gosh if this was being set in court, because
my gut reaction is to say, I don't care about
what his child was like. I don't care if he's
afraid to face his mom who may take the stand.
(24:15):
And I know you weren't defending him, but you were
speaking up about specifics of the law, as was Linda.
But I'm just infuriated to think, what a coward, you
know what, what a coward? You're not scared and I
believe he's guilty and he's pleading that. Now you're not
afraid to slaughter for innocent people, but you are afraid
of death. Wouldn't you want it or not? I mean,
(24:38):
so the anger for me is brewing. I wonder what
it will be like tomorrow when they have to go
in and see I did hear. I was watching Brian
Enton online and who's a fantastic reporter, and he was
talking about how he wasn't sure but he heard that
Kaylee's father may not go in tomorrow. So everyone has
their own barometer of what they can take and when,
(25:02):
and of course the family thinking of his dad. We
all saw Cheryl as he mentioned that car ride with
his father. I mean, it's not their fault, but just
to look at him and you know what, I would guess.
He doesn't say a word. He says what he has
to say, the minimum amount, and he goes on his
merry way.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Well, I'll tell you one thing, and let me be
extremely clear. If you dance with the devil, he will lead.
Brian Coburger, if he takes this deal, is self servant,
whether it's to protect his mama or daddy from having
to testify against him, whether it's keeping his sister from
telling what he was like when he was a kid.
(25:42):
Because Brian Coburger is the type of person. If he
were to be in a bar and Susan, me, you
and Linda go in to have girls' night, we all
instantly know he's a weirdo.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
He's a creep.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
That's not something he hid, that's not something I don't
think can argue with me about. You can see it
in his life since high school. So, like Linda again,
you mentioned things sometimes sound callous, but here's the bottom line.
For the family. And this is the part that is
kind of I think, throwing people, and it does sound
(26:17):
callous and horrible, but at the end of the day,
this is the prosecution's call. And Kurk, let's talk a
little bit about the the opportunity that he may or
may not be given to give facts. The first person
I thought about was Btk. I mean, he stood and
told it, this is what I did, this is how
I did it, when I did it, and too who
(26:38):
I did it. So do you not think that's going
to be on the table here?
Speaker 6 (26:43):
Well, I think it depends on when we're talking about Cheryl,
because he will, you know, enter a change of plea,
which is typically pretty routine. There will be a factual
basis laid either by the prosecutor his defense attorney, or
perhaps the judge just will say, well, list the elements
of offense and he will agree that he did those offenses.
(27:06):
I think that's all we're going to see at a
change of plea hearing. The question will be when he
gets to sentencing and has a chance to elocute, to
address the court, the families and the victims have a
chance to you know, say their piece, make him listen
to what they want him to hear. He can respond
(27:30):
in his elocution by in any method he wants to,
or he can remain moved. So that is all up
to him.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Y'all have such varied backgrounds, but your opinions are so solid.
And here's what I really hope. I hope people can
hear what we're saying to say. Look, he ain't going
to be that safe. He's trying to pull an oak dope,
but it might end up biting him in his own ass.
That's just the bottom line. And Jeffrey dahmeran the only one.
He's just one that I know. People remember what he
(28:03):
did and then what happened to him. So here's one
thing that I kind of struggled with. Nancy asked me
this morning about if this had happened to one of
my children, what justice am I looking for?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Well, here's the bottom line.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
If you're saying what could happen to him, that would
be justice for Huck or Caroline. Nothing what you would
take from me, There's not a chance of restitution. There
is no punishment. Mid evil enough, heinous enough for him.
(28:40):
And I understand, you know Kaylee's dad, I do he's
been mad from day one. He's going to be mad
the day they put him in the ground.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I mean I've often said y'all that if something happened
to Hunt Caroline, I'd burn this town down, and.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
I would happily.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
You know, they'd be like, is that a fire behind you?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
You damn straight as a fire behind me?
Speaker 6 (29:01):
Right?
Speaker 5 (29:02):
I bro the toundown if it happened to my.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Dog, That's what I'm saying to you.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I media forget my child, and Linda, I would help you.
It's like if somebody says, why do you love Walt?
I mean, when people say, oh, he's my best friend,
it's more than that. It's so much more in that
I can't even put it into words.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
And that's how I feel, even if it's fake, like.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Me and Linda, I mean, just bring some matches and
y'all join us, because that's what's happening. We write it down,
We write it down. So I'm just gonna ask the
three of y'all because Serge had to leave, but you know,
Linda and Kurt and Susan, how do we advocate for
this family? They feel slighted, They feel like we were
(29:47):
all geared up for this fight, and we wanted justice
for Xanna and Ethan and Kaylee and Maddie, and now
we're Dad Gummet not gonna get it.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
I think back to Delphi and I remember the day
of victim statements, and they were the most powerful statements
I had ever heard from Becky Kelsey's was read. Also
Abby's grandmother Diane, and that mattered, and they needed to
do that, and that was healing, and I saw it firsthand.
(30:17):
I believe at the end of July, when they will
have the chance the families to read victim impact statements,
I think that's when I would like to watch his
face and look at that frightening face. And I remember
something that always stood out to me where Libby's sister
Kelsey said, I wasn't in the beginning, of course very
depressed because she dropped the girls off at the bridge
(30:38):
and of course losing her sister, and she said I
wasn't going to let him kill me too. And I
think that that's what I got from meeting Stacy saying
I'm not going to let this person kill me. My
husband and his siblings, Ethan's two siblings, Hunter and Mazie,
and So I do want to end on this that
there is a foundation called Ethan's Smile and she started
(31:01):
it and she aworeds scholarships to other kids Ethan's age
in his honor, and that's how she says what keeps
her going. So it's all about what keeps you going.
And of course I'm not saying by any means do
I know that it's easy to heal. I have no
idea what these families are going through, and everyone deals
with it differently, but you can't let them kill you too.
(31:22):
And I think, and I hope that you are right, Cheryl,
that this nothing will ever be easy, for this evil, disgusting,
just human, barely human. So I think at the families
and I hope that the victim impacts statements on that day.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
That that does help them, Amen, Kurt.
Speaker 6 (31:43):
What a lot of people don't think about is how
even if the data Idaho achieved the death penalty, even
if they were to get that verdict, that the appeal
would last on average statistically ten or fifteen years, meaning
the case would go go And that fifty percent of
death penalty sentences are overturned based on some form of error,
(32:08):
whether that's error on the part of the judge, the prosecutor,
or the defense attorney. My hope for the families is
that getting to that point of having a victim impact
statement and knowing that it is truly the end can
help give rise to closure and healing at a much
(32:32):
faster pace than do they have to deal with appeals
for the next ten or fifteen years.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
Linda, I don't think anything we can say to them
is going to make them heal. But I think as
a society, the one thing that we talk about a
lot and we never follow through is how do we
end up with these people like the Ted Bundys. And
I'm not talking about the Parklands shooter. I get that,
(33:01):
how he ended up with the you know in Florigna.
How do we end up with this what we perceive
is just plain evil of the Brian Cobergers, And we
don't have an answer. And until we get that answer,
there's going to be other families who are going to
feel like this. And it's not like I'm not saying
that one death is more important than another, because every
(33:25):
homicide victim, murder victim's death is important to their family.
The family are the ones who are greeting more. The
children are kind of out of their pain. They don't
even know now what happens. The families have that pain
until the day they die. So we need to find
out how we eliminate this evil from the world so
(33:45):
that future families don't have that pain. And I think
that we have to look at it in that broader scope.
And if I'm the family though, however, I want to
be able to have access to him, to ask my
questions to him directly. I want to know until the
day I die, I will seek that truth from Brian Coburger.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Well stated Joe, Susan Kurk, Linda, thank you, thank you
so much. You're going to just share so much light
on this for so many people, and I appreciate all
of you. I'm going to end Zone seven the way
that I always do with a quote depression, no interest,
in activity, constant thoughts of suicide, crazy thoughts, delusions of grandeur, anxiety,
(34:33):
poor self image, poor social skills, no emotion. When I
get home, I'm mean to my family. This started when
the visuals snowed it. I felt no emotion, and along
with the depersonalization, I can say and do whatever I
want with little remorse Brian Coburger, May twenty eleven. I'm
(35:02):
Cheryl McCollum and this is zone seven mm hmm
Brian Cooberger has agreed to take a plea deal, y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
He will plead guilty to.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Murdering Xana, Ethan, Kaylee and Maddie. Now, a lot of
folks are shocked by this, but you know, we've been
talking over and over and I've said the same thing.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
The defense has nothing.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
They have zero that can counter the evidence against it.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
The DNA, the knife, sheep, his car, his cell phone.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I mean, it just goes on and own and they
cannot get rid of it no matter what they've tried.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And y'all, I just the group we've got tonight. I
am so grateful.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
But we have got Sergeant Joe Jackaloone, NYPD, retired side
cold case, and I want to start with him.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I cannot help but think of so many people involved
with this case. But the detectives, they have been on
this case for years. We all know the investigation does
not stop at a rest.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
What do you think they thought when they got the news?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Oh boy?
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Yeah, Just from personal experience, the initial stages when you
get when you get notified by the district attorney about
something like this is frustration, even somewhat anger, because you
work so hard that puts this together, and like you said,
it just doesn't stop when you made the collar. You
just you keep on going. And now you're preparing for
court and they're studying, they're getting their their you know,
ducks in a row, and then the kind of have
(01:46):
the carpet ripped out from on them. But you know
what it's, it's it's frustrating, but it's also fleeting in
a way because a win is a win, and I
think that's you know, even though the district attorney takes
the plea and he gets that in his column, the
detectives have to pat themselves on the back too because
they made a prosecutable case, basically ironclad, So they should
(02:07):
be proud of themselves too.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
That's true. I mean, a killer is off the street
at the end of the day.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah, I mean, and he's a quadruple killer too. I
mean when you think of it that way, and from scratch,
from nothing, they were able to put this whole case
together through you know, surveillance, video, cell phone records, and
Internet records, right what I refer to as the three
forensic Horsemen, and it's and this case actually becomes you know,
part of a textbook lore and in regards to putting
(02:34):
together a prosecutable case with all these different aspects of
it and being able to make something out of nothing. Right,
when this case originally first, there was a lot of
people thought that this case would never be solved, let
alone and in a conviction.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
And that's the other thing about the police work. He
had no connection to any of the victims, and they
were able to locate him and arrest him in seven weeks.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
That's pretty extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Yes, And I remember the day, the day before they
made the arrest, I was doing a news nation and
the chief was sitting in a chair and he was
sitting in there. He was leaning back, and I actually
said right there and knew. I said, that's a man
that doesn't have any worries. I think they have an
arrest coming soon. And it was just from the you know,
the nonverbal communication. I mean, this was a very stressful
case and then all of a sudden, the chief was
(03:21):
very relaxed. So listen, they need to pat themselves on
the back of the cops did a great job they had.
They worked well with the state partners, and they worked
well with the FBI. Unlike you see in television shows
where everybody's fighting and trying to take over. This was
a great collaboration. They put this case together, and like
I said, they made something ad enough. And and here
we are today talking about him taking a plea and
(03:43):
going to jail the rest of his life without an appeal.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Amen, and y'all we've got reporter podcaster offer Susan Hendrix
with us. Now, Susan, I got to ask you you're feeling,
but not as a reporter or a podcaster or an author,
but as a mama. I mean, the worst possible thing
(04:06):
has happened, and you gear yourself up for this trial
where you're going to face this monster and read a
victim impact statement and try to articulate what he took
from you, and then you get an email.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah, the way they were notified, I can't imagine that happening.
Getting ready to go to this trial.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
We saw it.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Cheryl in Delphie, day in and day out, being excruciating.
And as you know, Cheryl, each family heals in their
own way. If they ever fully heal, they don't. I
was lucky enough to get to know Ethan Chapin's mom, Stacy.
I reached out to her in twenty twenty three. I
was on a panel with her at Crime Con and
just a wonderful person, wonderful family, and she said, Susan,
(04:54):
we literally dropped the kids off at school and my
husband and I they were triplets and Hunter, and we
high fived and said we did it. And she said
and then of course the most horrific thing that no
one ever imagines. She said, we'd watch the news that
happens to other people. It doesn't happen to us, but
it does. And to turn it around, she said, look,
(05:17):
what we want to do is remember Ethan. And she
described him to me as kind and sweet and fun loving,
and that reminds me of Jack. So my mind immediately
goes there my son, who's nine years old, and you think,
how would I feel to get this news? And I
do know that her family because we were talking in
twenty twenty three, and I know obviously things have changed.
(05:41):
I believe she would have been there at the trial.
But she said, I nothing will bring Ethan back. So
she is going tomorrow with her family and they support
the plea deal. How they were told is horrific. But everyone,
it's hard to kind of guess how you would be
in that situation, and hopefully none of us feel that,
(06:03):
But we don't know. Would it be to not see
Brian Coberger's face face of evil, or would it be
to face him head on as we saw with Kaylee's dad.
So it's difficult to tell, and every family heals in
a different way, but the way it was handled and
so fast, I don't even think all the family members
can get there tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
But you know, I remember sitting in the court in
Delphi and me and you and my sister Charlene, you know,
we all three have children, and we watched the families
just you just I don't know your heart breaks for them.
It's unimaginable. But I know Charlene, she was not prepared
(06:49):
for Richard Allen to be standing right there. Like when
she realized he was less than six feet from her,
just standing talking to people, she couldn't believe it, Like
why is he not almost in a cage? Why is
he not like, you know, in one of those masks
where he can't see anybody or talk to anybody. She
(07:10):
just was stunned by that. And I think in some ways,
the family's been spared, that they've been spared a trial
in the stress of testifying. They've been spared having to
watch that monster. They've been spared publicly, having to hear
about autopsies, no chance for a mistrial, no chance that
(07:31):
you're going to have a hung jury. I mean, this
is a slam dunk. He's gonna be found guilty of murder,
four of them. But at the same time, I mean, Susan,
come on an email.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
I know, And would I wonder, knock on wood, that
I ever have to feel that? But would I want
to face him? Would I want to scream at the
top of my lungs why Although we never really get
the right answer, never ever ever makes sense because that's
what people want to know, why and exactly what happened.
And that reminds me of Beth Holloway with she wanted
(08:09):
answers and she got that, and that was healing for her.
Allegedly she got it from Jurin Vanderslope. But everyone heals
differently or not, not only heels or not heels, but
gets through. It is able to get out of bed
because I remember Stacy saying it'd be easy to curl
up in a ball. I can't do that. I have
two other kids. They deserve a mom, so she had
to keep going obviously for them.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I'll tell you, y'all.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
We also have the great feigned defense attorney, Linda Kenny Bowden. Linda,
I mean, I just got to say it. His defense
attorney did her job, didn't she?
Speaker 5 (08:47):
Uh? She most certainly did. She asked for a deal
and they got the deal. According to the letter that's
been shown from one of the parents to some of
the news reporters. Quite frankly, it's a little bit, although
it doesn't Here's why it surprised me from the very beginning, Cheryl,
and I think I mentioned this to you today, is
(09:09):
that the optics of her defending him from the first
day in court were not good. She sat very far
away from him. She didn't touch him in any way.
If you look at the optics, and I think I
talked to you about this, and when I sit next
to my clients, I'm not scared of them, it looked
like she was scared of him. So I didn't think
(09:29):
the optics were very good. But she brought in a
lot of people that could help her, and I think
she also had some aces in the hole. And this
is that number one. Several of the families would not
want to see their children's visation again in the courtroom,
the blood letting in the courtroom, the brutality in the courtroom, right,
(09:52):
so you know that the families felt differently about that.
I think the other thing is you had those young women,
especially the one young woman who saw Brian Coburger leaving.
We do not know what her life is like. It
is possible that testifying for her could actually destroy her
life even more than it already has. We don't know
(10:13):
where she's at psychologically, we don't know where she's at
in her healing. And so I think that the prosecutors
understood that and that if they can get a deal
that puts him away. And this face that's scary to everybody.
I don't think any one of us is ever going
to forget his face. I mean, Ted Bundy looks like
a choir boy next to Brian Coburger. They put him
(10:35):
in prison, and he's not going to be a celebrity
in prison. He is going to be persona non grata.
He is, in my opinion, in the category of Jeffrey Dahmer,
Whitey Bulger, the pedophile priests. That's where he is. So
every single moment in prison, he will be looking behind
him and he will become the stalk, not the stalker.
(10:58):
And I think the prosecutors know that, they understand that,
and whether or not to satisfies all the families, they
decided that this is the best resolution.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
No, I think you make a great point. And I've
said the same thing about Jeffrey Dahmer. If Brian Coberger,
thanks taking the death penalty off the table has saved
his life, he could absolutely be incorrect.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
Oh yeah, oh yeah. And you know, this is we're
telling the truth here for people that don't want to
hear it. This is this is what happens, and this
is the truth. We're not saying that we want him
to be the victim in a prison assassination. We're just
saying the reality is he will be targeted as a
as somebody who has been in the news, a high
(11:42):
profile defendant who killed four innocent people, and he's going
to go into a prison system god knows which one,
but there's going to be gangs, there's going to be
a white supremacist, there's going to be different different factions
in that prison, and he may not have the protection
he thinks he has.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
That's right, and if he had been convicted with the
death penalty, he would go on death row and have
a sale all by his self.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Now, he doesn't have that protection.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
That's right. That's right. You need to have a lot
of more protection waiting for that firing squad that would
eventually happen when his appeals would eventually be denied if
he didn't die of old age first.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
And y'all, we have the one and only defense attorney,
Kurt Nurmi.
Speaker 6 (12:30):
How are you, honey, I'm doing awesome, Cheryl.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Well, I got to tell you I want to hear
from you because a lot of people don't understand the
aftermath for the defense attorney. I mean again, cases like
this affect everybody that touches it.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
It's not like you go.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Well, I saved his life, good for me, and you
move on. You have information and facts and horrific knowledge
you can't get out of your head either.
Speaker 6 (12:58):
Yeah, you know, And there's so many different moments that
come to mind when we've had this discussion. We talk
about this because you know, I dealt with the death
penalty exclusively in a death penalty hotbed of Maricopa County
here in Phoenix for several years, and I remember, you know,
(13:19):
one of my first weeks there in the death penalty
unit having to go talk to a father whose child
had not committed any other crime in his life that
his son was facing the death penalty. And I've sat
in the rooms with the defendants telling them that they're
(13:40):
facing the death penalty. And you know, going into a
case like that, that the death penalty isn't charged if
the prosecutors don't have strong evidence, they just don't seek
the death penalty, if guilt isn't presumed. The other reality
of it is, Cheryl, is that a death penalty qualified
(14:02):
jury is more likely to convict than one that's not.
So you go into this proposition with the number one
goal being to save a life. And Linda talked about
some of the attorney, you know, relationship that Brian had
with his attorney, and I think that one of the
(14:24):
things that cannot go without being mentioned is the fact
that in order to save a life, in order to
get this outcome, there has to be a relationship between
the attorney and the defendant because whatever awaits him now,
(14:45):
whatever the ills we're talking about, Linda mentioned in prison,
what have you, You've got to convince him that you've
done everything you can. You've got to show him that
you've done everything and that it if he goes to trial,
his fate will probably be death. Grow he has got
(15:06):
to trust you. He's got to believe he or she
has got to believe that every bit of work you've
done has been on their behalf. And there is an
investment in that that comes at the expense of the attorney,
right because you know, you're looking at you know, Brian Kolberg.
(15:27):
You're talking to his parents and his family and his
loved ones and maybe and I know people don't think
about this, but maybe his second grade teacher, maybe his
best friends from high school, because they could be mitigation
witnesses and there becomes an investment there that is long lasting.
And you talk about you know, one of the things
(15:49):
that happens in a lot of death penalty cases that
go to trial is a lot of the jurors have
PTSD because of what they see. They see crime scene photographs,
they see other things that they wouldn't otherwise see, and
the attorneys and the police officers and whoever different role,
(16:09):
they see a lot of that and they have to
talk about that and they have to be you know,
the police make an arrest and interrogate the defense attorney.
That's building that kind of relationship with the client, one
that hopefully leads to them taking a life. Plead is
one that really, you know, gets you close to madness,
(16:31):
close to sociocopy, whatever you want to call it, for
a long period of time. Because keep in mind, I
can't remember how many years this case is going, but
some of them extend years. And you're in that situation
with a person like Brian Colberg for years, and you
don't just wash that off and go home.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
I had heard that he made a call to his
mama after the murders, and then of course we all
know the car trip he took with his dad going
back home. They would have to testify. So I believe
exactly what you're saying. To save them from having to
do that, he has another reason to take a plea.
Speaker 6 (17:15):
That's exactly right, because you know a lot of defendants
in that situation, you uncover a lot about their life.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Right.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
We don't know what got Brian Kolberg or to the
point where he is now, and a lot of that
means digging into some awful, dirty clauses that people don't
want to open up and don't want to see exposed
in the public light, and that can be a motivating
factor as well. But going back to my point earlier,
(17:45):
the attorney has to be willing to go there. They
have to be willing to talk to these people, talk
about how Brian got there. And you know, there's some
amazingly sad stories that you hear and you connect with
on both sides of the aisle because you know, you
know on the other side that there's some grieving families
and what have you. But your job is to save
(18:08):
that life.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
The interesting thing about this to me, though, is that
if what we've seen is true, the the Coburger team
came to the prosecutors and said, you know, if you
take death off the table, we will you know, we
will plead guilty. Usually you'll sometimes see the reverse, You'll
(18:31):
see the prosecutors say, if we take death all the table,
will you plead guilty? So I don't know what it
was in the that the prosecutors felt they must felt
they must have some kind of possible weak link, And
I don't think it would be a weak link. I
think it's a concern link. For some of the witnesses
(18:52):
on that prosecution side, and maybe if I were the prosecution,
I'd say I'd accept that, but I want I want
a complete statement of accountability. I want to be able
to just like you mentioned, Holloway, I want to be
able to grill your client before because my understanding is
he's not going to have to elocute and say that
(19:14):
the project that his team will say something, or the
prosecution will say something that he sees pleading guilty, but
he's not going to have to do that full elocution
confession in court. And quite frankly, the one thing that
if I were the parents I would be wanting to
wanting is I'd want answers to my questions as to
how exactly he picked my child, how exactly my child died,
(19:39):
why did he do it, what made him do it
that night, what was it in him that caused him
to grow up like this? I'd want those answers to them.
And that's one of the things that could upset as
you see two of the families with regard to Coburger.
I had a friend, Andy Astroy. He is a well
(20:01):
known author and a producer, and all his wife was
murdered Adrian Shelley, and he actually went to the prison
after about ten years where the killer of his wife
was incarcerated, and specifically asked those questions. It was heart wrenching, heartbreaking, terrible,
but he hadn't gotten them early on and he wanted
(20:23):
to know the answer. So I think that the families
not only had their laws, they have that and that's
one of the things that's going to It won't blow
off the steal, but it's going to make this steal
harder for everyone to swallow because two of the families
aren't behind it.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Linda, that's an excellent point, Kirk, you want to weigh
in on that.
Speaker 6 (20:41):
Yeah. One of the things I was going to say,
what's common to my experience is that what typically happens
in a case like this, and we talked about the lawyer,
is that once the lawyers, if the lawyers can convince
their client, the defense attorneys can convince their client to
accept a plea offer for life, which is the most
(21:03):
typical resolution. What is delivered to the prosecutor along with
that plea is all the mitigating evidence that they have
researched that and by all the mitigating evidence that means
they basically are required to research their client's life from conception,
(21:23):
because there's any in utero issues, drugs or alcohol, feed alcohol,
cynem etc. All the way up to the day of
their sentence. They put that together is what's called the
mitigating mitigation packet, and the real issue isn't related to
the case, the underlying case. The real crust of this
(21:43):
is you might not be able to get the death
penalty because of these issues. Therefore, here's a resolution that
we have with our client, because generally, in my experience,
prosecutors aren't going to offer life unless they know that
the client is willing to accept it. So that there
is a reaching out process from the defense attorneys with
all this mitigating evidence, and then the prosecutor will go
(22:07):
to the families and some of the answers that we're
talking about. If there's psychological analysis, which there would be
in typically a mitigation packet, the prosecutor is going to
have some insight on that and certainly shouldn't be done
through email, but could obviously share that with the families
as well. So it's a little what I've experienced is
(22:28):
a little different than what Linda referenced and you.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Know, Susan, I worked with a man, John Crass, and
he was so fantastic. But he told us once we
had a real bad case coming up, and he said, listen,
sometimes you never know what happened, and sometimes you know
exactly what happened, and they're both horrible, Like there's no
(22:55):
winner if you never get an answer or if you
get an answer. And I have found him to be
absolutely accurate on that. And you know, for you, you
know you're going to be sitting in court. You're always
in court. You're you know, sometimes chasing these cases. And
I agree with what Joe was saying earlier. You don't
(23:16):
get out of this thing unscathed either. I mean, look
at how your life changed with Delphi. You went to
cover a story, fell in love with a family, and
then watch them navigate this horrific trial where they were
even accused.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Of doing it exactly.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
And I mean, that is such another level of the
world we live. And I always say, the good thing
about having a podcast here, a YouTube channel is everyone
has a voice. And the bad thing is is that
everyone has a voice. And it's just pathetic that they
are able to do that. And that's a whole other
layer of this. And I'm friends with Kirk and got
(23:55):
to know him well, and of course we covered the
Jodi Arias trial. But as you were talking, Kirkham thinking,
oh gosh if this was being set in court, because
my gut reaction is to say, I don't care about
what his child was like. I don't care if he's
afraid to face his mom who may take the stand.
(24:15):
And I know you weren't defending him, but you were
speaking up about specifics of the law, as was Linda.
But I'm just infuriated to think, what a coward, you
know what, what a coward? You're not scared and I
believe he's guilty and he's pleading that. Now you're not
afraid to slaughter for innocent people, but you are afraid
of death. Wouldn't you want it or not? I mean,
(24:38):
so the anger for me is brewing. I wonder what
it will be like tomorrow when they have to go
in and see I did hear. I was watching Brian
Enton online and who's a fantastic reporter, and he was
talking about how he wasn't sure but he heard that
Kaylee's father may not go in tomorrow. So everyone has
their own barometer of what they can take and when,
(25:02):
and of course the family thinking of his dad. We
all saw Cheryl as he mentioned that car ride with
his father. I mean, it's not their fault, but just
to look at him and you know what, I would guess.
He doesn't say a word. He says what he has
to say, the minimum amount, and he goes on his
merry way.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Well, I'll tell you one thing, and let me be
extremely clear. If you dance with the devil, he will lead.
Brian Coburger, if he takes this deal, is self servant,
whether it's to protect his mama or daddy from having
to testify against him, whether it's keeping his sister from
telling what he was like when he was a kid.
(25:42):
Because Brian Coburger is the type of person. If he
were to be in a bar and Susan, me, you
and Linda go in to have girls' night, we all
instantly know he's a weirdo.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
He's a creep.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
That's not something he hid, that's not something I don't
think can argue with me about. You can see it
in his life since high school. So, like Linda again,
you mentioned things sometimes sound callous, but here's the bottom line.
For the family. And this is the part that is
kind of I think, throwing people, and it does sound
(26:17):
callous and horrible, but at the end of the day,
this is the prosecution's call. And Kurk, let's talk a
little bit about the the opportunity that he may or
may not be given to give facts. The first person
I thought about was Btk. I mean, he stood and
told it, this is what I did, this is how
I did it, when I did it, and too who
(26:38):
I did it. So do you not think that's going
to be on the table here?
Speaker 6 (26:43):
Well, I think it depends on when we're talking about Cheryl,
because he will, you know, enter a change of plea,
which is typically pretty routine. There will be a factual
basis laid either by the prosecutor his defense attorney, or
perhaps the judge just will say, well, list the elements
of offense and he will agree that he did those offenses.
(27:06):
I think that's all we're going to see at a
change of plea hearing. The question will be when he
gets to sentencing and has a chance to elocute, to
address the court, the families and the victims have a
chance to you know, say their piece, make him listen
to what they want him to hear. He can respond
(27:30):
in his elocution by in any method he wants to,
or he can remain moved. So that is all up
to him.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Y'all have such varied backgrounds, but your opinions are so solid.
And here's what I really hope. I hope people can
hear what we're saying to say. Look, he ain't going
to be that safe. He's trying to pull an oak dope,
but it might end up biting him in his own ass.
That's just the bottom line. And Jeffrey dahmeran the only one.
He's just one that I know. People remember what he
(28:03):
did and then what happened to him. So here's one
thing that I kind of struggled with. Nancy asked me
this morning about if this had happened to one of
my children, what justice am I looking for?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Well, here's the bottom line.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
If you're saying what could happen to him, that would
be justice for Huck or Caroline. Nothing what you would
take from me, There's not a chance of restitution. There
is no punishment. Mid evil enough, heinous enough for him.
(28:40):
And I understand, you know Kaylee's dad, I do he's
been mad from day one. He's going to be mad
the day they put him in the ground.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I mean I've often said y'all that if something happened
to Hunt Caroline, I'd burn this town down, and.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
I would happily.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
You know, they'd be like, is that a fire behind you?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
You damn straight as a fire behind me?
Speaker 6 (29:01):
Right?
Speaker 5 (29:02):
I bro the toundown if it happened to my.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Dog, That's what I'm saying to you.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I media forget my child, and Linda, I would help you.
It's like if somebody says, why do you love Walt?
I mean, when people say, oh, he's my best friend,
it's more than that. It's so much more in that
I can't even put it into words.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
And that's how I feel, even if it's fake, like.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Me and Linda, I mean, just bring some matches and
y'all join us, because that's what's happening. We write it down,
We write it down. So I'm just gonna ask the
three of y'all because Serge had to leave, but you know,
Linda and Kurt and Susan, how do we advocate for
this family? They feel slighted, They feel like we were
(29:47):
all geared up for this fight, and we wanted justice
for Xanna and Ethan and Kaylee and Maddie, and now
we're Dad Gummet not gonna get it.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
I think back to Delphi and I remember the day
of victim statements, and they were the most powerful statements
I had ever heard from Becky Kelsey's was read. Also
Abby's grandmother Diane, and that mattered, and they needed to
do that, and that was healing, and I saw it firsthand.
(30:17):
I believe at the end of July, when they will
have the chance the families to read victim impact statements,
I think that's when I would like to watch his
face and look at that frightening face. And I remember
something that always stood out to me where Libby's sister
Kelsey said, I wasn't in the beginning, of course very
depressed because she dropped the girls off at the bridge
(30:38):
and of course losing her sister, and she said I
wasn't going to let him kill me too. And I
think that that's what I got from meeting Stacy saying
I'm not going to let this person kill me. My
husband and his siblings, Ethan's two siblings, Hunter and Mazie,
and So I do want to end on this that
there is a foundation called Ethan's Smile and she started
(31:01):
it and she aworeds scholarships to other kids Ethan's age
in his honor, and that's how she says what keeps
her going. So it's all about what keeps you going.
And of course I'm not saying by any means do
I know that it's easy to heal. I have no
idea what these families are going through, and everyone deals
with it differently, but you can't let them kill you too.
(31:22):
And I think, and I hope that you are right, Cheryl,
that this nothing will ever be easy, for this evil, disgusting,
just human, barely human. So I think at the families
and I hope that the victim impacts statements on that day.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
That that does help them, Amen, Kurt.
Speaker 6 (31:43):
What a lot of people don't think about is how
even if the data Idaho achieved the death penalty, even
if they were to get that verdict, that the appeal
would last on average statistically ten or fifteen years, meaning
the case would go go And that fifty percent of
death penalty sentences are overturned based on some form of error,
(32:08):
whether that's error on the part of the judge, the prosecutor,
or the defense attorney. My hope for the families is
that getting to that point of having a victim impact
statement and knowing that it is truly the end can
help give rise to closure and healing at a much
(32:32):
faster pace than do they have to deal with appeals
for the next ten or fifteen years.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
Linda, I don't think anything we can say to them
is going to make them heal. But I think as
a society, the one thing that we talk about a
lot and we never follow through is how do we
end up with these people like the Ted Bundys. And
I'm not talking about the Parklands shooter. I get that,
(33:01):
how he ended up with the you know in Florigna.
How do we end up with this what we perceive
is just plain evil of the Brian Cobergers, And we
don't have an answer. And until we get that answer,
there's going to be other families who are going to
feel like this. And it's not like I'm not saying
that one death is more important than another, because every
(33:25):
homicide victim, murder victim's death is important to their family.
The family are the ones who are greeting more. The
children are kind of out of their pain. They don't
even know now what happens. The families have that pain
until the day they die. So we need to find
out how we eliminate this evil from the world so
(33:45):
that future families don't have that pain. And I think
that we have to look at it in that broader scope.
And if I'm the family though, however, I want to
be able to have access to him, to ask my
questions to him directly. I want to know until the
day I die, I will seek that truth from Brian Coburger.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Well stated Joe, Susan Kurk, Linda, thank you, thank you
so much. You're going to just share so much light
on this for so many people, and I appreciate all
of you. I'm going to end Zone seven the way
that I always do with a quote depression, no interest,
in activity, constant thoughts of suicide, crazy thoughts, delusions of grandeur, anxiety,
(34:33):
poor self image, poor social skills, no emotion. When I
get home, I'm mean to my family. This started when
the visuals snowed it. I felt no emotion, and along
with the depersonalization, I can say and do whatever I
want with little remorse Brian Coburger, May twenty eleven. I'm
(35:02):
Cheryl McCollum and this is zone seven mm hmm
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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