Guest Bio and Links:
Lauren Conlin is a pop culture and true crime podcaster, known for her work on Primetime Crime and her appearances on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She provides unique insights into criminal cases, blending her investigative skills with pop culture knowledge.
Listeners can learn more about Lauren Conlin at her website, her podcast, and on IG @laurenemilyconlin
Jarrett Ferentino is a federal and state trial attorney with over 20 years of experience in criminal law. His expertise in murder, sexual assault, and drug trafficking cases has made him a sought-after commentator in the true crime space.
Listeners can learn more about Jarrett Ferentino at his website, and on X @ferentinoesq
Watch Prime Time Crime Show LIVE Wednesday Nights 8pm EST on YouTube
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, welcomes two true crime powerhouses: Lauren Conlin, and Jarrett Ferentino. Together, they dive into two of the most unsettling cases: The Kansas City Moms Case and the Karen Read Case. Lauren and Jarrett dissect the shocking events involving a grandmother, Tiffany Adams, who conspired with others to murder Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly. The trio discusses the intricacies of the investigation, legal ramifications, and chilling details that have captured nationwide attention. Lastly, they cover details surrounding Karen Read’s alleged involvement in the death of Boston police officer John O'Keefe. They explore the prosecution's claim that Read accidentally ran over O'Keefe, but they raise serious doubts about the evidence. They also question the overcharging of Read with murder, suggesting that the case may never be retried due to the compromised investigation.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
- (0:30) Sheryl introduces guests, Lauren Conlin and Jarrett Ferentino to Zone 7
- (6:30) Kansas City moms case overview
- (9:00) The murder plot and arrests
- (15:00) Legal strategies & the role of cult dynamics
- (23:00) Lauren's insights into small-town fears about the trial
- (25:00) Karen Read trial overview
- (32:00) Witness credibility and investigation gaps
- (38:00) Lessons for investigators and police academy crew
- (44:00) The commonwealth case gets weaker
- (49:00) Watch Prime Time Crime Show LIVE Wed Nights 8pm EST on YouTube
- (51:00) “Find a group of people who challenge and inspire you and spend a lot of time with them. It'll change your life.” -A.P
- Thanks for listening to another episode! If you’re loving the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to Itunes and leave a rating and review!
Episodes Covering KCMC Case:
Friday Crime Round-Up with Nancy Grace: Sebastian Rogers Latest and Missing Women in Oklahoma
Kidnapping, Murder, or Conspiracy in Oklahoma? | Laura Ingle Part I
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
How do you spend five minutes with Lauren Conlin and
not just fall in love with her vivacious and contagious spirit.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
The answer is, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Because I adore her and I did the moment I
met her. She is a reporter, a podcaster. She's an
expert in pop culture and true crime. Y'all know her
from Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Prime Time Crime, and
Crime con She has covered cases that y'all has just
(00:46):
landed her on People dot Com, l Magazine, and The
Today Show.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Y'all see her everywhere. She knows everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I have never once said to her, Hey, if you
ever heard of she goes, Oh, I love them. She
knows everybody, but y'all. She didn't come here alone.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
She brought a slick tailored attorney. JAREDT. Farantino a federal and.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
State trial lawyer with two decades of experience. He is
a nationally recognized true crime personality.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
He has worked over a hundred.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Murder, sexual assault, and drug trafficking cases. Y'all also know
him from Crime Stories with Nancy Grace twenty twenty, The
ID Network, and Crime Nation. Now I got to tell you,
I am so thrilled they are both here together.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
But something y'all may not know.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Lauren and I have worked a case together a few
where we try to connect some dots and sometimes maybe
find some evidence nobody has seen yet. And Jared and
I have worked a case together that the first time
I met him, I'm gonna.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Tell y'all something.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
It was straight out of a movie that lawyer dressed perfectly,
hair slicked back, smoking a cigar, fully tailored.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
By a swimming pool. I was like, who in the
world is that? And it didn't take me about two
seconds to go, Yep, he's the real deal. So I
want to just.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Tell y'all welcome Lauren and Jarrett to Zone seven.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Thank you, Cheryl, I'm laughing. That was the best introduction
I've ever heard. Jared, what do you think?
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Likewise? Thank you Cheryl, And believe me, meeting you was
a special for me. You were not in a tailored
suitor smoking a cigar, but you were beautiful, southern and
hot on the trail of a killer in South Carolina.
So great to be here with you, and great to
be here with Lauren as always too.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, thank you for having us, Cheryl, and you are
literally amazing. I mean Jarrett and I meeting is essentially
because you.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh well, I love to hear that, because I'm gonna
tell you, I didn't even know the two of y'all
knew each other, and all of a sudden it just
pops up out Wider podcast and I see the two
of you.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
And I'm like, yes, this should absolutely have happened. And
I could not click that thing quick enough. It was
so good, so good.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
We have you to blame. So Cheryl is Cheryl was
my conduit and connection to the Nancy Grace Show, and
then I met Lauren there, so without you, this tag
team would have never happened. So thank you.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I should be thanking y'all. It's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And again I love the way y'all just come at
something from completely different worlds, really, and the way y'all
tag team it. It's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Jared and I connected after Nancy. I had him on
my show The Outlier, and we decided to start Primetime
Crime together, which starts it off as a pre recorded show.
We would throw up the video on YouTube discussing different cases,
and then we decided to make it a live stream
so the audience and people in the chat could interact
(04:11):
and it's been incredible. And I have to say, I mean,
I come from a perspective where I like to ask
the questions that people might be thinking but are afraid
to ask. I genuinely am learning as I go, and
you guys both know that about me. I'm not afraid
to maybe sound silly every once in a while, like, oh,
she should probably know that, well, surprised I didn't know that,
(04:33):
and I'm asking about it, and once you tell me,
I learn. But Jared is incredible because he's able to
break things down in terms that everybody understands, and he
doesn't make you feel stupid about it. He doesn't make
you feel silly for asking. He actually makes you feel
good about asking certain questions in the way he explains them.
So I think we make a really good team. We're
(04:55):
both very aggressive, you know, we have the same goals
we want just for all of the cases that come
across our desk.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Brilliant and Lauren, that's a great segue for me because
one of the first things I wanted to ask is
the case that y'all have taken on, and that's the
Kansas City Moms. So I'm going to start with Jared,
since you tossed me that so beautifully. You know they're
looking at these suspects. There's five of them. Do you
think they're going to be tried together or separately? So
(05:25):
let's just get right into that.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Really, that decision is going to be made by the judge,
and he or she will be in the best position
to make that call once their defense is clarify. If
they start pointing the finger at one another, you're going
to have a hard time trying them together. And that
really remains to be seen. Warren and I have gotten
(05:47):
our hands on every filing thus far. We're starting to
see some cracks in the conspiracy with regard to the
information that's being requested. And again, having done this, having
looked at other cases and Warren two were able to
pick apart those little signs. So as a prosecutor, you
want these cases to be tried together. You could appreciate
(06:08):
the fact that you don't want defense lawyers to have
five bites at the apple over five separate trials. You
don't want to put your witnesses, some of them are
children in this case, through five separate trials. The goal
really would be let's do it together. Judicial economy, you know,
convenience for the parties, convenience for the witness. But it
(06:28):
really remains to be seen either way. It is going
to be a wild trial.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
It is gonna be wild, Lauren.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Can you just give everybody a brief background of what
we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Yes, absolutely, Cheryl. So this case it seriously pulls at
my heart NonStop. I'm close with some of the locals
and even some of the family members in this case.
But Veronica Butler was a I guess you could call
her a single mom. She had two young kids, She
was split from her baby's father, and they had some
(07:03):
issues with custody. So they were going back and forth
with this horrible custody battle where at one point her
I'll just call her her mother in law for all
intents and purposes, even though the baby's father, Wrangler, and
Veronica were never married. Wrangler's mother, Tiffany, stepped in to
try and take care of the children, and she got
(07:25):
a little bit too comfortable. She thought those kids were
her own. She wanted those kids for herself, and Veronica
at the point that she disappeared with another woman whose
name was Gillian Kelly, she was just Veronica's court appointed
supervisor for the day. And actually, what's so heartbreaking about
(07:46):
this whole thing is that there was another corn appointed
supervisor who called out that day, and we still don't
know exactly what made her call out, but she did,
and so Jillian took over. And at this point, Veronica
was seeing her two children once a week. She was
very very close to getting her kids overnight again, and
(08:07):
the court appointed supervisor had nothing bad to say. So
Veronica was gonna get her kids back. And her mother
in law, Tiffany Adams, that is her name, and Wrangler's mother,
she didn't want that. She did not want that at all.
She did not think that that is what's best for
the children. And this is me speculating based on what
(08:27):
allegedly happened next. But the day that Gillian and Veronica
were driving to see the children from Kansas to Oklahoma,
it's you know, their bordering states, you know, they disappeared.
We didn't know where they went. It was the day
before Easter that they disappeared. There was a week long
man hunt for them, and they turned up a week
(08:50):
later on rental property. Unfortunately, their bodies were discovered fifteen
feet underground in a large chest freezer, and we later
found out I think it was maybe two weeks later
that Tiffany was arrested and three other suspects at the
time were arrested, her boyfriend Tad Collum and two other
(09:14):
people other friends, Cora and Cole Twombly. And it turns
out Cora and Cole's daughter gave the most information to police,
and that, along with what police found evidence wise, led
to their arrest. I mean, they had Google searches of how, yeah,
how to get someone to leave their house because they
(09:35):
had planned to kill Veronica months before by throwing an
anvil through her windshield, and they had bought stun guns,
they bought prepaid phones. I mean, it was insane. So
when the car was actually found in this rural area,
it you know, there was pools of blood all around
the car. There was kitty litter around the car. Cheryl.
(09:57):
It's disgusting, Like they're so stupid the thought that would
just soak up all the blood. I'm thinking, I mean,
these are just not smart suspects. So there was another
man named on the affidavit, the original rest affidavit, but
he wasn't arrested until maybe I want to say, three
weeks later that was Paul Grice. And then one of
(10:18):
the freakiest things about this whole thing is that they
were essentially part of a cult, and they called themselves
God's Misfits, and so they would have meetings at friends' houses.
And I think one of the reasons that so many
people are afraid to talk about this case locally is
because there was a lot more than five people at
(10:38):
these Gods Misfits meetings, so that means there's a lot
more of them out there.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Well, I'm just gonna say this about that they got
that name half right. I don't think God's involved, but
I know, gag you know, daggum whale misfits or involved.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Because here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
When I first heard about the cave, and you're looking
at the timeline and looking at what occurred quickly, these
folks leave their house in one state and Veronica and
Jillian are driving just across the border to a meeting
spot predetermined by the mother in law.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And she doesn't show up.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Now, everybody listening to me has either got a family
member or a friend that went through a divorce that
was ugly, and everybody hates their body and everybody you know,
throws shade and talks, you know, bad about somebody. If
that mother in law had been at that meeting spot
and Veronica did not show up to get those children
(11:40):
on one of the children's birthday, she would have been
the first person on social media. She would have been
the first person calling the court system telling everybody that
would listen to her, how sorry and good for nothing
Veronica was for not showing up when she did not
do that baby. That's flag.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I didn't even really think about that, and I if
people are listening that are a little confused as to
why Veronica didn't have custody of her children. You know,
I'm not really going over that in detail because to me,
in my opinion, a lot of it is unclear. There's
I don't want to say rumors. There was some sort
of history that was documented of abuse, not by Veronica
(12:24):
but by a family member. But in turn, there was
also documented potential abuse by Tiffany and even Wrangler back
in the day. But at this point we don't exactly
know what is true one hundred percent true, I should say,
so that's why I didn't necessarily want to go down
that road. But just thinking, in case anybody is wondering
(12:45):
who's listening.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
You raise a really good point. There is an arrogance
to this conspiracy. I believe that there is a justification
in their minds that they believe the ends justified the means.
I think they knew damn well their entire conspiracy was
going to be caught. They are ready for this thing,
(13:08):
and basically they've acted in a way jointly. There were
admissions made according to the affidavit by Gryce and by
Tiffany Adams. But you said it. Tiffany Adams isn't stupid.
She's been in she's been on boards, she's been active
in the community. She knew damn well they'd be looking
(13:28):
for her. And in short order, I believe, as I
look at this and Lauren and I really dig into
this thing, there is an arrogance here, and there is
a preceived justification for their conduct, whether it's wrapped up
in their cult beliefs or some incorrect belief in the law.
But that's what I'm that's what I'm speculating. It was
(13:49):
a bitter custody situation. I believe Tiffany conspired with these
other individuals thing basically, we have to do whatever we
got to do to protect these kids, and the government
and the judge involved are failing these kids. And that's
basically what I think brought about the unfortunate and tragic
end of Veronica Angelians.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Absolutely, And you know, Paul, he was not arrested for
weeks and weeks, and I kept thinking and theorizing the
whole time is because he was flipping. I thought he
was talking. And then when they arrested him and never
said anything, I thought, what in the world then, was
what were they doing?
Speaker 4 (14:32):
That's the first thing I thought as well, And he
has provided statements oftentimes if that was developing while the
arrests were coming down, they were getting information from Paul
confirming what their evidence was showing, and they were negotiating
what to actually charge him with. And it may have
taken time, and it looks that this way they charged
him with the whole kitten kaboodle and may work backwards.
(14:54):
But my approach on any of these cases is, I'm
sure you know you got five defendants, find the weakest
link to make a deal fast, turn them on everybody else,
and in five with five, you're gonna find one.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I want the weak one. I want the dumb one.
I want the one that's scared to death. That's who
you want and that's how you go after, which, again,
is the one that I thought they would have put
the handcuffs home first.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
I everything that I've gathered and researched, and the people
I've spoken to in town, they all agreed that Paul
Grice was absolutely the weakest link out of the five
of them, which I found to be interesting because I
always thought maybe it would be Cora Twombly, but no,
it's all pointing to Paul.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I'll tell you another hero in this thing is the daughter.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Oh absolutely, that's an interesting point too. I would find
something to pull on the heartstrings of the Twombleas and
say the gig is up. Do you want your daughter
to have to testify against the two of you or
do you want to become joint witnesses in this thing?
Stand with her? You brought her into this. I mean,
you're the ones who made her a witness. And the
(16:04):
last memory basically their daughter would have with them as
free people is looking at them in a courtroom in
front of a jury, pointing the finger at them for
the quote unquote mission they were on. That is a
huge component to this case that I think, And if
you look at Cora's filings, the lawyers are doing a
good job. There's a lot of pre trial fighting right now,
(16:25):
but Cora's lawyers have been filing for information related to
the domestic disputes between Tiffany and Veronica, and it seems
to me that Cora's lawyers are starting to get that
information and Tiffany was trying to block it. That's the
first sign of trouble amongst the conspiracy because Cora is
(16:46):
trying to pad her defense with the information from those
domestic filings. So it's clear to me something is amiss
here with the conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Well, we're going to keep following this with y'all, and
I can't overstate that I think this is going to
be something that not only grabs that entire community, but
all of us because this is something that I think
resonates with folks on some level. Again, everybody's been through
it where a horrible turn could take. Because I believe
(17:24):
in this case, you have a grandmama that thought she
was doing the right thing and was able to convince
for other people she was right.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Over an extended period of time to shell like it's
conspiracies are always fascinating. But at no time, and Lauren
made a good point too, this had been going on
for months, the preparation that went into this thing. It's
still gotten messed up. But at no time does somebody say,
you know, this is probably not a good idea. You know,
it's like they were committed to Tiffany and carrying this
(17:56):
thing out, which is fat it's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
And you know, I've got four older sisters and at
one point I think all four of them have made
a horrible romantic choice. However, no matter when the five
of us got together talking about how sorry one of
them was, or how good for nothing one of them was,
nobody ever wound up in a pit with a back hole.
(18:22):
So again for us to be angry one night and
have our sisters back and yes, agree that this person
is the devil. Right at some point, Jared to your point.
The next Monday, the next Wednesday, we're like, you know what,
forget him. You should already be on a date with
somebody else, Like we've moved on from it. You don't
plot and plan and scheme and then have one felled
(18:43):
attempt where you're going to use an anvil like you're
a cartoon character. I mean, the whole thing is just
acdine and sad. But again, I think it's important for
people to learn the facts about the case.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Something that really just kills me inside is that these
women were just so unsuspecting. Veronica and Jillian were, you know,
they just they came at them out of the blue.
The affidavits say Cora and Cole were there to divert
the truck. And since we don't know, we don't know
what happened to them. We don't know what was done
(19:17):
to them with stun guns, with you know, a pistol,
We have no idea. So it just it kills me
to think about the fact that those horrific faces were
the last faces that those women ever saw, not their children.
Jillian had four children, she had a husband, she was
a preacher's wife. You know, Veronica's children were still small.
(19:38):
They loved their mom so much, and Veronica was a
great mom. No matter what Tiffany said, Veronica was a
wonderful mother and that's what she should be remembered for.
But my heart breaks for just the families and the children.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
And you know, That's the reason I think this is
so important because to say there were no flags, absolutely
there were. There were flags that were me by Veronica,
by the court, by the police, by extended family. There's
no way that that mother in law kept her mouth shut.
There's no way she didn't send certain text messages, certain threats,
(20:13):
certain you know, she showed her hand. I can guarantee
you she did. Her hatred for that girl was not
hidden in any form or fashion. And I will say this,
I can guarantee that something was going on with that
birthday party where that mother in law said, no, we're
not doing this, No, you can't pick them up here,
(20:33):
No I'm not available. Then and then all of a sudden,
I bet you she said yes. And I bet she
picked the place they were supposed to meet, the abandoned place,
because there wouldn't be no cameras, there wouldn't be no people.
She did that, and once she started driving the train
should have been a clue, unfortunately to both of those women.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
And I'm sure they'll come out, you know, in the trial,
all of these horrific text messages, if they exist, which
again I'm sure they do. But I just would think
to myself, they wouldn't go alone if they had an
inkling that something was going to happen. I mean, it
was reported that Gillian had a mag but not a pistol,
you know. So it's like, if you were suspecting something,
(21:15):
wouldn't you come prepared or bring someone else? And I
do I get like worked up about it because they should.
They should still be alive and the people.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
You're one hundred percent right. But let me tell you something.
Veronica did go with somebody. She thought she was doing
the right thing. She had an officer of the court
for all intents and purposes with her right, so she thought,
Because here's the thing, Lauren. If you say, hey, I'm
going to go here and meet friends for dinner, but
the only way I can get back to my car
is to cut through two alleys, you.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
May not do it.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
But if it's me and you girl come home, you
all of a sudden feel safer, even though it's the
same level of danger.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
I think there was a lot of and I think
maybe there was a naive key and an immortality belief here.
I'm sure Tiffany was a lot more bark prior to
be invite I think that that's the other thing, And
I think, who in the blue hell thinks we're going
to be brutally murdered in broad daylight when we get there.
I mean, there's a false sense of security here that
(22:16):
kids are being exchanged. At that point, you let your
guard down. Her desire to see her children, I'm sure
trumped any personal concern she may have had for herself,
and you know what, have tremendous ruse and motivation to
get her out there. So it's just so sad. And
that's the fascinating thing too about this case is you
have a grandmother acting this way and her friends acting
(22:39):
this way, which is so be Maybe in our experience
it's not foreign, but to people who aren't in the
murder and mayhem business, it's certainly a foreign concept, correct.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
And especially in a little bitty town. You know, that's
another thing that struck me. You know, you're telling me
that in a two minute period of time, she should
have showed up to shange the children, but she didn't.
But that's the exact same moment a complete stranger, a transient,
happened to intersect with them and kidnap both of them
and take them somewhere not a chance and you got
(23:12):
to see it.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
You got to see the area. I mean, Cheryl, I
know you've seen it, but if anybody listening, you've got
to google this area. You know. It's like, guy, I'm
in Oklahoma, Elkhart, Kansas. It's just so rural. It gives
you chills, you know, when you see these pictures and
you see just how abandoned it is. But I know
a lot of the locals are worried. Not I guess
(23:34):
they're worried about the system. And like you said, it's
it's a small town quote unquote, but simmer And County
where they normally live. Cole Twombly's brother is the sheriff.
Now they're being held in Texas County. But I think
a lot of people are worried that somehow the system
is going to fail. And that's also what worries me
(23:55):
as well. With all these proceedings and all of these
motions and these filings, and you know, if they're tried together,
like Jared, it does it freaks me out to think, like,
could anything go wrong if they're tried together? Could they
try three of them together and then you know, two
of them separately. I just it makes me nervous. I mean,
Tiffany wanted a gag order with the media and she
(24:18):
actually listed Nancy Grace's show because Nancy had a headline
that called her killer Granny. And the judge was like, nope, sorry,
you're not getting it, which is a great sign, but
again it makes me nervous.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Well, she didn't lift us, honey, Yeah, yeah, I just think.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Yeah, obviously there are a million things that can go wrong,
but I'm looking at this. You got to trust the system.
You have to have faith in the system here. This
is a tragic, tragic, brutal case. And I don't care
if you're the sheriff for the president of the United States.
They're going to be held accountable and it's gonna take time.
(24:55):
Though Cheryl Lauren doesn't like when I say this, but
this trialing happened until two thousand at least.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, I'm with you on that one.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And listen, you know, I think we ought to just
move on to something that is non controversial, a case
that nobody's talking about, and that's Karen Reid.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Because you're right, that comes my headache.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh my gosh. And here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
All three of us come from a very different place,
and all three of us kind of have the same
Oh no, And I'm just gonna put mine out there first,
and then I'm gonna let y'all take over. And as
a crime scene investigator, here's what blows my freaking mind.
If there's going to be a retrial. If and y'all
(25:45):
hear me, if you don't have a lead detective. Now,
I don't know how many homicide cases y'all ever sat through,
but in forty four years, I have never sat through
one that didn't have a lead detective. You don't have
a chain of custody. You don't have a confession that
was written down, which in my world means you ain't
(26:06):
got one. You don't have a crime scene that was secured.
You have a law enforcement person on the stand that
said the body was pointed out to me that it
was laying over there.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
What so you don't even know where the body was.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
You don't have an expert that can prove a hit
and run from the commonwealth. And this is when I
think I literally just slumped back in my chair when
the FBI interjected themselves in this thing.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Okay, am I the only one that was like, what
is happening? Right now? How is this a thing? And
then my.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Favorite part is afterwards, all these folks are under an
ia and the scariest part, one of them wasn't even
involved in this scene, which tells you it's broader than
they want us to believe. Jarrett Farantino, take it, Oh boy, of.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Where do you go from this? So all of those
points you made are enough for her to walk out
of that courtroom. That's number one. So it's no longer
any one of those points that developed properly by the defense.
I thought her defense a couple of things. Number One,
I think she's totally overcharged in this case. Okay, if
(27:19):
you believe the prosecution, this is a manslaughter case at best. Okay.
Number two, all of the issues you pointed out on
their own are enough for Karen to be acquitted. Here's
what people get confused about. The truth is important, and
it's paranoun, but it doesn't necessarily matter in that courtroom.
(27:39):
What matters is what you can prove, okay. And there's
more to life than being right when you get in there.
So you have all of these investigative issues okay that really,
if they're not solid, you chip away at that beyond
a reasonable doubt my opinion. Okay, that story about what
may have gone on inside the house and things of
(28:01):
that nature, that is a little bit fantastical to me.
I think she walks based on chipping away at the
integrity of the investigation alone. I believe if she did this,
she hit him, She hit him with her car and
took off, never intending to kill him, never thinking he
was going to fall down and die that night. That
(28:22):
is a major issue if it's retried without that lead
investigator and all the things they did, and how damaged
and compromise the credibility of the police are. I've had cases,
believe it or not, where the FBI was collaterally investigating
individuals involved. In my case, it is a black cloud
that hangs over your trial. It makes you extremely nervous,
(28:45):
and it finds its way into that corporate So the
reality is all of those issues you pointed out. If
she gets another trial, you're going to have a hell
of a time getting a conviction, is all.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I can say. All Right, Lauren, you're on that jury.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
So jered you you do think that she hit him
with her car? Most likely?
Speaker 4 (29:08):
That's what I think. That's the most plausible to me,
explanation all other things aside, but again, I don't know
that they're going to be able to get up that hill.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
You said this to me and it always stuck with me,
and they said it on the twenty twenty episode. It's
called something in Latin. But the simplest answer is the
most logical. What is that called.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's called it's called ass whoopus?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Wait, well whatever? And you know, I thought about it,
and I'm like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. And then
I sat through the trial and I was like, no
way is she getting convicted. I was even surprised that
there was a mistrial based on everything that I saw,
and I'm talking everything from the dufist that is Trooper Paul.
(29:53):
And I'm actually a really nice person, but that was
so hard to sit through. And then, Cheryl, when you mentioned,
you know, they're affectionately known on the internet as crash
Daddy's but Arca, who was hired by the FEDS when
they came in, and I mean, these guys had their doctorates,
they you know, they just they were incredible. They were
(30:14):
absolutely incredible, and they convinced me there was no way
that John was hit by a car. You know, they
convinced me of this, and then you know, I studied
these witnesses and even some of the officers. I mean,
you know, you've got Officer Sarah who did not once
say to the grand jury that he heard Karen Reid
(30:34):
say she hit him, she hit him, she had him, Oh,
I hit him. He did not stay that to the
grand jury. He didn't put that in any reports. And
yet he's up there on the stand saying that he
heard that. And this goes for many other witnesses. And sorry,
I feel like I'm yelling right now because I just
get so I know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Jared. Listen now, Jarreed, you're Italian. You know that's just passion.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
My hands go like crazy, we literally mine are.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
But yeah, you'll have to forgive me. My voice is
very loud. But no, every single witness, in my opinion,
was off. They had something to hide. And Cheryl, it's
your fault for introducing me to Peter Hyatt, because I
break everything down. When Matt McCabe, yeah, who was supposed
to be a friend of Officer John o'keef, is texting
(31:26):
Brian Albert saying the guy never went in the house
and then Albert writes back, exactly, I've said this before,
but this is like what my eight year old daughter
and I do to my son when I don't want
him to have ice cream. I say, hey, the ice
cream shop is closed, and Paisley says, yeah, exactly. And
we're trying to like make this whole you know what
(31:47):
I'm saying, And sure, yeah, there's there's that, there's the
fact that, and listen, it could mean nothing. But if
you don't believe in coincidences, there's too many, right they
sell thirty four Affair of You. The police never go
inside the house or actually, I'm sorry, they went inside
the house, but they didn't inspect the basement or do
anything in the basement. They rehomed the dog. When John's
arm shows up and people say, oh, it looks like
(32:10):
dog bites, and Marie, doctor Marie Russell went on the
stand and said, those are definitely dog bites. I mean,
there are so many things here that to me were like, okay,
I'm not buying it. But then again, the whole conspiracy
of him being in the house getting the shit kicked
out of him being dragged outside, I don't know about
(32:31):
that either. And I've thought of these things in my head,
but it's not really my job to come up with
what tragically happened to Officer O'Keefe. It's not my job.
But still I'm not convinced of either one that he
was killed in the house and dragged as I'm just
not I'm not convinced that that she hit him. I
mean the black blob that one of the witnesses saw, Like,
no one's talking about that either. It's just everything doesn't
(32:54):
make sense. I'm sorry that was long winded, and I
actually probably could go on for another twenty minutes, which
is so sad.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
But do you know what that is. That's a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Oh, it's a lot of doubts.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
And listen.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
And that's why early on I tweeted that this is
Casey Anthony and Mark Furman had a baby?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Is Troop or Proctor?
Speaker 1 (33:17):
And let me tell you why I said that, because
a lot of people didn't understand my reference.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
My reference was.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
One of the first times Nancy Grace ever cut my mic.
Is when I said Casey Anthony was going to walk
out of that courtroom.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
And here's the reason I said it.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
You could not find me a picture of her and
that baby that they weren't happy. That baby was clean,
that baby was happy, That baby was healthy, she was dressed, adorable,
She was playing with something all the time. Casey was
tossing her in the air, she was hugging her. They
were in the pool, they were at the beach. You
(33:53):
couldn't find me anything visually to show me that was
not a happy mama and child. To me, that was relevant.
And the second thing that I could not get away from.
I could ask fifty people, how do you think the
baby died? Everybody has a different answer. It was an
accidental drowning. She accidentally got in mama's drugs. Mamma used chloroform.
(34:15):
I think she maybe fail and hit her head and
Mama freaked out. Nobody can tell me how that baby died.
If you don't know how the baby died, you ain't
got murder. Same with John O'Keefe. If you cannot tell
me how he died, you ain't got murder. And the
thing is, you take that arm, and you show that
arm to one hundred nurses, I guarantee you eighty five
percent are going to say dog bite because they've seen
(34:37):
it that many times. If you look at the injury.
What are the odds? And if you look at the
pieces of the tail, like, you cannot find one piece
that would make those parallel scratches.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
No tailate's plastic, Cheryl, what about that whole thing?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Right?
Speaker 1 (34:54):
But even if you have that, but even if you
have that little tip, it's going to make one scratch,
not two parallel scratches. And then they it's like two
and two and two and two and they're slightly in
different directions.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Not possible. I mean I called it a magic tail light.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
The cocktail loss was intact too, So that's the other thing.
It's like, couldn't have been glass either, and there wouldn't
I mean, yeah, I didn't go into the details, but
there would have been a lot more damage to the car.
I mean, and you know what pisces me off to
is the reason or one of the reasons they upped
the charge to murder is because of the messages, like
the hate messages that she left him after she murdered him.
(35:35):
I mean, right, totally. And Jared, we've talked about this
where I think it was it was like Scott Peterson,
Jody Arius, They're leaving me sweet messages after they you know,
murdered their spouse. The only person that left those horrific
messages was Betty Broderick, and she, you know, she had
some well documented issues and had done a few other
(35:58):
things besides leave messages like that. But I was just
everything just bothered me so much about this, and it
really just grinds my gears about you know, just the
state of Massachusetts, and they just need to get their
act together, my goodness.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
In the end, Cheryl, you make a powerful point. You
take the Casey Anthony pictures and the failure to really
explain the death and the murder. That's really what the
heart of the Karen Reid case is. If you can't
convince them what the hell happened, how can you convince
them who's responsible? What happened? Is question number one? Who
(36:31):
done it? Is question number two. If you can't answer one,
you got nothing.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And question number three should never even get in there,
but it's going to and that is how does three
police departments and fifteen people missed the tail light but
Proctor suddenly found it.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
That's where the Mark Furman comes in. Then I didn't
even mention it.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
In my first little die tribe his text messages, so
you say that till the end. And now they won't
even tell us the rest of what they found on
that phone because they know they know it's going to
blow up. Oh, I don't know, sixteen twenty more cases.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Yeah, like the Anna Walsh case. Proctor was one of
the lead detectives on that. And you know, I was
very shocked because whether you like him or hate him,
Turtle Boy, Aiden Carney and I'm not even talking but
anything else he's done except for this. He did interview
a juror, and this juror did not was not one
(37:26):
of the jurors that went to the defense or to
the state. But this juror said that they thought that
the Canton police were the ones that were not great,
not you know, just not did a horrible job, and
that the mass Date Police did a good job because
they're the ones that found the tail light. So I
was I was shocked at that. I was like, wait, really,
(37:48):
you're not really grouping them as one and doing this
god awful investigation. They actually had more respect for the
mass State Police minus Procter.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
And y'all, I think there's cases he's we've never heard
of that whatever they found in that phone, I mean
the prosecutor flat said, I mean people would be in
danger if they released it.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
What does that tell you?
Speaker 4 (38:11):
That should be a lesson to every investigator out there.
Don't don't be stupid. If oh, could you imagine sitting
in that courtroom with your lead detective reading those texts,
I would have threw a shoe at him.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Let me tell you, I told my chief this needs
to be shown at every single police academy in the country.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Well, I'm speaking at the Pennsylvania State Police Academy in
two weeks, and I promise you there will be a
picture of Proctor incorporated into my presentation.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
And you know, to me, the most damming of the
whole thing is when the defense attorney said, read this,
and then he his own words, he said C word
and the defense startey said, no, no, no, that ain't
what you wrote.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
You know you read what you wrote.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
So that to me, that to me even showed buddy,
that's how bad you know this is.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You don't even want to say it.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Yes, and it's just funny that you said that. Sorry,
it's not funny. I shouldn't say that. But because I've
watched that whole thing so many times, he's looking down
and he says the C word, and then Judge Canoni says,
these are your words, Trooper Proctor, Yes, your honor, go
ahead and say them. I literally I'm like, yes, for once, Judge,
I agree with you. Go ahead and say them.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
I mean, that's what you sent to God and country.
You didn't care who saw it. You knew it was
a possibility that this was going to happen.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
Sure one of the other things too. Another lesson to
be taken from this. You know, go back to your
police officers. I know you talk to police officers all
over the country and investigators like, be smart about what
you're putting on social media, be smart about what you're
liking and sharing. I do that whenever I speak. I
speak at these academies and I tell them, and I
(39:57):
see the same look on their faces, like they're like, oh, shoot,
that text or that Facebook joke that I liked that
could be inferred as racist, or a picture of me
passed out drunk. I say, go clean up your Facebook,
go clean up your Instagram, because all of that is
fair game and it's public. These are the kind of
(40:19):
things you want to wear that badge, and then inevitably
somebody will say freedom of speech. This I'll tell you why.
When you're on the stand and you're in the hot
seat and somebody's bringing up some racial slur you made
up or you made two years ago, I'm going to
yell up from my seat. Remember the first Amendment. I
hope you're happy. You know.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Mark Furman used one word a lot about it. This
man used horrible language, horrible situations. He brought up suicide,
he brought up her medical event, he used profanity. I
mean he hit all the highlights. Because there's nobody sitting
in that jurabox that has not been affected by suicide
in some way. A childhood friend, a family friend, a coworker.
(41:04):
No way, you've escaped that. And then you bring up
such horrible words regarding women. Well, you offended somebody, at
least one. I mean, there was nothing that he said.
And then when he went to her health issues, I
don't care who you are, that is not okay what
he did. So to me, he was just after he
(41:25):
had been discredited and after he looked like a fool. No,
I didn't go to the crime scene. What lead detective
doesn't go to the homicide crime scene. I know it
was a joke, and then no, I don't write it down.
You don't write it down, You don't make sure that
scene is secure, you don't make sure that you bring
in the very best person that you've got. And remember,
(41:48):
this is a homicide of a police officer, not that
they would get special treatment, not that they're going to
get things other people don't get. But you absolutely know
in your heart you're not fixing a call Boston until
tell them you didn't do everything perfect.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
And imagine for a moment if this is one hundred
percent true Karen Reid. This is just for the purposes
of my point. Imagine if it's one hundred percent true
that Karen Reid caused the death of John O'Keefe. Could
you imagine what an embarrassment it is when another officer
is there prosecuting the death of a colleague, of a brother,
(42:22):
and that's what's being read. His disrespectful And here's what happened, Cheryl.
Not only is his he's in he's uncredible. Now his
texts were incredible. And here's why. It shows a level
of immaturity, It shows stupidity, and worse, it shows an
animus in a disregard for Karen Reid and her rights
(42:45):
and all of that that cocktail together spell's disaster for
anybody looking to have faith in anything.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
He's said well stated, And that's why I've told people
they're never going to retry her.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
They're not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
How how do you do it without a detective that
ran the show supposedly? How do you do it with
no new evidence, no decent eyewitness, They've lost the video.
The other video is inverted in backwards. I mean, what
are we doing?
Speaker 3 (43:13):
Yeah, it's really bad. It's gross. That whole department seemed
like they were just so misogynousts and just going back
to like not one person was like, hey, maybe don't
put this in writing. Hey and maybe you know, no
one said don't do that. That's wrong. I mean, it's
just gross.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
And when you look at the internal affairs investigations, there's
some folks that got caught in that net that were
not involved in this case.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
And that tells me all I need.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
It's wider and deeper and uglier than they have let
us know.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Think about Kevin Albert, who Procter was forced to admit
on this stand and also, like all these people drinking
and driving, and like I said, Proctor and Kevin Albert
were forced to admit that they were in a police
cruiser in the Cape drinking and he left his badge
and gun there. I mean, it's just it's absurd. And
all of these people who who it's a blizzard out
(44:08):
and you're at a bar and you're having X many
drinks and you're all getting in your car. I mean,
Karen included here. This is it's just weird. And they
all seem to not care about letting underaged kids drink.
I mean this whole I get it, small town, but
my goodness.
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Taking Rhodies out of the bar to the next bar.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
And that's why I've said the Commonweltz case gets weaker,
it cannot ever get stronger.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
I agree with every passing day. And here's the other thing.
Even if they were to retry this and get her Cheryl,
she's going to remain out on bail with all these
collateral issues out there. The federal investigation that case has
to get through a jury to beyond a reasonable doubt
and survive the rigors of appeals that are forthcoming. And
(44:59):
this federal investigation that hangs over, which will inevitably result
in challenges to the case that was ultimately made if
it's made against Karen Reid. So even if they get her,
Karen Reid does not go to jail.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Well, Jared, I'll say this to you.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
You said that you believe she was overcharged. I think
Casey Anthony was overcharged too. But I think if you
have a second trial and you even attempt to overcharge her,
I think that's an ethics issue because you know you
don't have it.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
A jury has already told you you don't have it.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
Well, and again, I think it's such a political football
and everything out there. I believe she was overcharged, you know,
to take those texts and make it intense. So what
was her plan? To slightly back over him with the
car or knock him down with the car and h
til it out of there. That was her intention, and
that he would die in the snow like a dog
(45:58):
like that would happen. So you would say, Okay, she
was pissed off. This gives her intent. This is the
plan she comes up with. I mean, let me knock
him down, let him die in the snot that's the problem.
Why it's an overcharge. None of it makes sense. They
don't meld together very easily. So if they go to
round two, trial number two, my recommendation would be go
(46:20):
all in on the manslaughter, say this was the way
it happened, was reckless, whatever she took off, and focus
on that. But again, you still run into all the problems.
The integrity of the scene, all of that is still
tested in that scenario as well.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
But they had the chance to. I mean, I think
the state still could drop the two charges, but they
just argued in front of Judge Canoni and she wouldn't budge.
Everything is sticking, So I mean, that is hu. It's
crazy to me, and it's so true, Like you said,
that was her plan back over him while people are
going inside this party, I mean, this house. It's so silly.
(46:58):
And then call him out and call him a pervert
and say you're with his kids? Where is he? And
listen those voicemails. She's pretty truthful if you ask me.
She's pretty damn angry.
Speaker 4 (47:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
But again, you know, y'all mentioned the perfect storm.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
What police officer that has a stranger dead on their
front lawn don't come out of the house, so you're
telling me these police officers did not come outside with
their friend dead in the front yard.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
No, Brian Albert did not go outside, not.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
But the other people didn't come either, Remember, so you
know you let the girlfriend go, but you don't come
Like none of this makes any sense to me that
that would never be true in my world.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
That would never exist.
Speaker 4 (47:45):
Just even if you weren't a police officer.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
They're on your front lawn one hundred percent, one hundred percent.
But there's no way a police officer ain't going out there.
There's no chance. All right, So before we go and
has flown by. So y'all have got to come back
because I didn't even get to the missing people that
y'all highlight and the important work you're doing. Just tell
(48:08):
everybody a little bit more about your show and direct
them to how to get there, because they don't need
to miss this at all.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
Well, let me say this. On Wednesday nights at eight
o'clock on YouTube Primetime crime show Lauren and I Go Live,
I spent the first part of my podcasting life talking
to myself. I wanted to find a partner that raises
the issues and did an independent investigation and ask the
questions that everybody out there had, and Lauren is that person.
(48:40):
I try, with my background as best I can to
break down the law and whatever major true crime big
cases out there. Lauren and I and our conversations and
our guests. Our hope is to contribute to solving some
unsolved cases and really explain to people is our system working,
(49:01):
how's it working? And dispel misconceptions out there, and really
educate and entertain, because, believe it or not, in all
this murder and mayhemon blood and guts. One of the
other goals I have on every episode is to try
to make Lauren laugh.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
So we try to get there, right, Lauren, Yes, So
we get there sometimes, and he also keeps me in line. Hey, Lauren,
that's defamatory.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
No, I'm just kidding, and not get soon.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
Yeah exactly, And I'm not good soon. But no, Jared,
he nails it. But we also we cover big stories
that everybody wants to hear about, but it is important
to us to also cover small stories. And that's why
I think that the true crime community in general is
just amazing, and people might have misconceptions about people that
are into, you know, stories that involve missing people or
(49:47):
missing children, but really it's this community coming together that
helps solve them, which is so incredible to me. I mean,
just tagging reporters, content creators, you Nancy Grace in certain
missing people's cases, and you know Nancy will cover it
on her show or will cover it, and I mean,
you know, Nancy is the queen. She's in, you know,
(50:09):
a different stratosphere than you know, Jara and I obviously,
but it's like we we look up to her and
we see what she's doing, and we would love to
highlight cases like that and and help solve them because
it's just, you know, it's it's it's becoming a thing
now for for cyberus loops and content creators and just
people on the internet to help solve murders and find
(50:33):
missing people. So we want to contribute to that.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
I've had the opportunity to work independently with both of
you extraordinary individually, but together, honey, y'all are own to something.
So I just I can't wait to see what y'all
do next and anything I can do to help call me.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
You know, I won't hesitate, Cheryl. I never hesitated so much, y'all.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Find a group of people who challenge and inspire you,
and spend a lot of time with them. It'll change
your life, Amy Poehler. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is
Zone seven.
How do you spend five minutes with Lauren Conlin and
not just fall in love with her vivacious and contagious spirit.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
The answer is, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Because I adore her and I did the moment I
met her. She is a reporter, a podcaster. She's an
expert in pop culture and true crime. Y'all know her
from Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Prime Time Crime, and
Crime con She has covered cases that y'all has just
(00:46):
landed her on People dot Com, l Magazine, and The
Today Show.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Y'all see her everywhere. She knows everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I have never once said to her, Hey, if you
ever heard of she goes, Oh, I love them. She
knows everybody, but y'all. She didn't come here alone.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
She brought a slick tailored attorney. JAREDT. Farantino a federal and.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
State trial lawyer with two decades of experience. He is
a nationally recognized true crime personality.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
He has worked over a hundred.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Murder, sexual assault, and drug trafficking cases. Y'all also know
him from Crime Stories with Nancy Grace twenty twenty, The
ID Network, and Crime Nation. Now I got to tell you,
I am so thrilled they are both here together.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
But something y'all may not know.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Lauren and I have worked a case together a few
where we try to connect some dots and sometimes maybe
find some evidence nobody has seen yet. And Jared and
I have worked a case together that the first time
I met him, I'm gonna.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Tell y'all something.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
It was straight out of a movie that lawyer dressed perfectly,
hair slicked back, smoking a cigar, fully tailored.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
By a swimming pool. I was like, who in the
world is that? And it didn't take me about two
seconds to go, Yep, he's the real deal. So I
want to just.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Tell y'all welcome Lauren and Jarrett to Zone seven.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Thank you, Cheryl, I'm laughing. That was the best introduction
I've ever heard. Jared, what do you think?
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Likewise? Thank you Cheryl, And believe me, meeting you was
a special for me. You were not in a tailored
suitor smoking a cigar, but you were beautiful, southern and
hot on the trail of a killer in South Carolina.
So great to be here with you, and great to
be here with Lauren as always too.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, thank you for having us, Cheryl, and you are
literally amazing. I mean Jarrett and I meeting is essentially
because you.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh well, I love to hear that, because I'm gonna
tell you, I didn't even know the two of y'all
knew each other, and all of a sudden it just
pops up out Wider podcast and I see the two
of you.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
And I'm like, yes, this should absolutely have happened. And
I could not click that thing quick enough. It was
so good, so good.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
We have you to blame. So Cheryl is Cheryl was
my conduit and connection to the Nancy Grace Show, and
then I met Lauren there, so without you, this tag
team would have never happened. So thank you.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I should be thanking y'all. It's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And again I love the way y'all just come at
something from completely different worlds, really, and the way y'all
tag team it. It's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Jared and I connected after Nancy. I had him on
my show The Outlier, and we decided to start Primetime
Crime together, which starts it off as a pre recorded show.
We would throw up the video on YouTube discussing different cases,
and then we decided to make it a live stream
so the audience and people in the chat could interact
(04:11):
and it's been incredible. And I have to say, I mean,
I come from a perspective where I like to ask
the questions that people might be thinking but are afraid
to ask. I genuinely am learning as I go, and
you guys both know that about me. I'm not afraid
to maybe sound silly every once in a while, like, oh,
she should probably know that, well, surprised I didn't know that,
(04:33):
and I'm asking about it, and once you tell me,
I learn. But Jared is incredible because he's able to
break things down in terms that everybody understands, and he
doesn't make you feel stupid about it. He doesn't make
you feel silly for asking. He actually makes you feel
good about asking certain questions in the way he explains them.
So I think we make a really good team. We're
(04:55):
both very aggressive, you know, we have the same goals
we want just for all of the cases that come
across our desk.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Brilliant and Lauren, that's a great segue for me because
one of the first things I wanted to ask is
the case that y'all have taken on, and that's the
Kansas City Moms. So I'm going to start with Jared,
since you tossed me that so beautifully. You know they're
looking at these suspects. There's five of them. Do you
think they're going to be tried together or separately? So
(05:25):
let's just get right into that.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Really, that decision is going to be made by the judge,
and he or she will be in the best position
to make that call once their defense is clarify. If
they start pointing the finger at one another, you're going
to have a hard time trying them together. And that
really remains to be seen. Warren and I have gotten
(05:47):
our hands on every filing thus far. We're starting to
see some cracks in the conspiracy with regard to the
information that's being requested. And again, having done this, having
looked at other cases and Warren two were able to
pick apart those little signs. So as a prosecutor, you
want these cases to be tried together. You could appreciate
(06:08):
the fact that you don't want defense lawyers to have
five bites at the apple over five separate trials. You
don't want to put your witnesses, some of them are
children in this case, through five separate trials. The goal
really would be let's do it together. Judicial economy, you know,
convenience for the parties, convenience for the witness. But it
(06:28):
really remains to be seen either way. It is going
to be a wild trial.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
It is gonna be wild, Lauren.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Can you just give everybody a brief background of what
we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Yes, absolutely, Cheryl. So this case it seriously pulls at
my heart NonStop. I'm close with some of the locals
and even some of the family members in this case.
But Veronica Butler was a I guess you could call
her a single mom. She had two young kids, She
was split from her baby's father, and they had some
(07:03):
issues with custody. So they were going back and forth
with this horrible custody battle where at one point her
I'll just call her her mother in law for all
intents and purposes, even though the baby's father, Wrangler, and
Veronica were never married. Wrangler's mother, Tiffany, stepped in to
try and take care of the children, and she got
(07:25):
a little bit too comfortable. She thought those kids were
her own. She wanted those kids for herself, and Veronica
at the point that she disappeared with another woman whose
name was Gillian Kelly, she was just Veronica's court appointed
supervisor for the day. And actually, what's so heartbreaking about
(07:46):
this whole thing is that there was another corn appointed
supervisor who called out that day, and we still don't
know exactly what made her call out, but she did,
and so Jillian took over. And at this point, Veronica
was seeing her two children once a week. She was
very very close to getting her kids overnight again, and
(08:07):
the court appointed supervisor had nothing bad to say. So
Veronica was gonna get her kids back. And her mother
in law, Tiffany Adams, that is her name, and Wrangler's mother,
she didn't want that. She did not want that at all.
She did not think that that is what's best for
the children. And this is me speculating based on what
(08:27):
allegedly happened next. But the day that Gillian and Veronica
were driving to see the children from Kansas to Oklahoma,
it's you know, their bordering states, you know, they disappeared.
We didn't know where they went. It was the day
before Easter that they disappeared. There was a week long
man hunt for them, and they turned up a week
(08:50):
later on rental property. Unfortunately, their bodies were discovered fifteen
feet underground in a large chest freezer, and we later
found out I think it was maybe two weeks later
that Tiffany was arrested and three other suspects at the
time were arrested, her boyfriend Tad Collum and two other
(09:14):
people other friends, Cora and Cole Twombly. And it turns
out Cora and Cole's daughter gave the most information to police,
and that, along with what police found evidence wise, led
to their arrest. I mean, they had Google searches of how, yeah,
how to get someone to leave their house because they
(09:35):
had planned to kill Veronica months before by throwing an
anvil through her windshield, and they had bought stun guns,
they bought prepaid phones. I mean, it was insane. So
when the car was actually found in this rural area,
it you know, there was pools of blood all around
the car. There was kitty litter around the car. Cheryl.
(09:57):
It's disgusting, Like they're so stupid the thought that would
just soak up all the blood. I'm thinking, I mean,
these are just not smart suspects. So there was another
man named on the affidavit, the original rest affidavit, but
he wasn't arrested until maybe I want to say, three
weeks later that was Paul Grice. And then one of
(10:18):
the freakiest things about this whole thing is that they
were essentially part of a cult, and they called themselves
God's Misfits, and so they would have meetings at friends' houses.
And I think one of the reasons that so many
people are afraid to talk about this case locally is
because there was a lot more than five people at
(10:38):
these Gods Misfits meetings, so that means there's a lot
more of them out there.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Well, I'm just gonna say this about that they got
that name half right. I don't think God's involved, but
I know, gag you know, daggum whale misfits or involved.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Because here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
When I first heard about the cave, and you're looking
at the timeline and looking at what occurred quickly, these
folks leave their house in one state and Veronica and
Jillian are driving just across the border to a meeting
spot predetermined by the mother in law.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And she doesn't show up.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Now, everybody listening to me has either got a family
member or a friend that went through a divorce that
was ugly, and everybody hates their body and everybody you know,
throws shade and talks, you know, bad about somebody. If
that mother in law had been at that meeting spot
and Veronica did not show up to get those children
(11:40):
on one of the children's birthday, she would have been
the first person on social media. She would have been
the first person calling the court system telling everybody that
would listen to her, how sorry and good for nothing
Veronica was for not showing up when she did not
do that baby. That's flag.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I didn't even really think about that, and I if
people are listening that are a little confused as to
why Veronica didn't have custody of her children. You know,
I'm not really going over that in detail because to me,
in my opinion, a lot of it is unclear. There's
I don't want to say rumors. There was some sort
of history that was documented of abuse, not by Veronica
(12:24):
but by a family member. But in turn, there was
also documented potential abuse by Tiffany and even Wrangler back
in the day. But at this point we don't exactly
know what is true one hundred percent true, I should say,
so that's why I didn't necessarily want to go down
that road. But just thinking, in case anybody is wondering
(12:45):
who's listening.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
You raise a really good point. There is an arrogance
to this conspiracy. I believe that there is a justification
in their minds that they believe the ends justified the means.
I think they knew damn well their entire conspiracy was
going to be caught. They are ready for this thing,
(13:08):
and basically they've acted in a way jointly. There were
admissions made according to the affidavit by Gryce and by
Tiffany Adams. But you said it. Tiffany Adams isn't stupid.
She's been in she's been on boards, she's been active
in the community. She knew damn well they'd be looking
(13:28):
for her. And in short order, I believe, as I
look at this and Lauren and I really dig into
this thing, there is an arrogance here, and there is
a preceived justification for their conduct, whether it's wrapped up
in their cult beliefs or some incorrect belief in the law.
But that's what I'm that's what I'm speculating. It was
(13:49):
a bitter custody situation. I believe Tiffany conspired with these
other individuals thing basically, we have to do whatever we
got to do to protect these kids, and the government
and the judge involved are failing these kids. And that's
basically what I think brought about the unfortunate and tragic
end of Veronica Angelians.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Absolutely, And you know, Paul, he was not arrested for
weeks and weeks, and I kept thinking and theorizing the
whole time is because he was flipping. I thought he
was talking. And then when they arrested him and never
said anything, I thought, what in the world then, was
what were they doing?
Speaker 4 (14:32):
That's the first thing I thought as well, And he
has provided statements oftentimes if that was developing while the
arrests were coming down, they were getting information from Paul
confirming what their evidence was showing, and they were negotiating
what to actually charge him with. And it may have
taken time, and it looks that this way they charged
him with the whole kitten kaboodle and may work backwards.
(14:54):
But my approach on any of these cases is, I'm
sure you know you got five defendants, find the weakest
link to make a deal fast, turn them on everybody else,
and in five with five, you're gonna find one.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I want the weak one. I want the dumb one.
I want the one that's scared to death. That's who
you want and that's how you go after, which, again,
is the one that I thought they would have put
the handcuffs home first.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
I everything that I've gathered and researched, and the people
I've spoken to in town, they all agreed that Paul
Grice was absolutely the weakest link out of the five
of them, which I found to be interesting because I
always thought maybe it would be Cora Twombly, but no,
it's all pointing to Paul.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I'll tell you another hero in this thing is the daughter.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Oh absolutely, that's an interesting point too. I would find
something to pull on the heartstrings of the Twombleas and
say the gig is up. Do you want your daughter
to have to testify against the two of you or
do you want to become joint witnesses in this thing?
Stand with her? You brought her into this. I mean,
you're the ones who made her a witness. And the
(16:04):
last memory basically their daughter would have with them as
free people is looking at them in a courtroom in
front of a jury, pointing the finger at them for
the quote unquote mission they were on. That is a
huge component to this case that I think, And if
you look at Cora's filings, the lawyers are doing a
good job. There's a lot of pre trial fighting right now,
(16:25):
but Cora's lawyers have been filing for information related to
the domestic disputes between Tiffany and Veronica, and it seems
to me that Cora's lawyers are starting to get that
information and Tiffany was trying to block it. That's the
first sign of trouble amongst the conspiracy because Cora is
(16:46):
trying to pad her defense with the information from those
domestic filings. So it's clear to me something is amiss
here with the conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Well, we're going to keep following this with y'all, and
I can't overstate that I think this is going to
be something that not only grabs that entire community, but
all of us because this is something that I think
resonates with folks on some level. Again, everybody's been through
it where a horrible turn could take. Because I believe
(17:24):
in this case, you have a grandmama that thought she
was doing the right thing and was able to convince
for other people she was right.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Over an extended period of time to shell like it's
conspiracies are always fascinating. But at no time, and Lauren
made a good point too, this had been going on
for months, the preparation that went into this thing. It's
still gotten messed up. But at no time does somebody say,
you know, this is probably not a good idea. You know,
it's like they were committed to Tiffany and carrying this
(17:56):
thing out, which is fat it's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
And you know, I've got four older sisters and at
one point I think all four of them have made
a horrible romantic choice. However, no matter when the five
of us got together talking about how sorry one of
them was, or how good for nothing one of them was,
nobody ever wound up in a pit with a back hole.
(18:22):
So again for us to be angry one night and
have our sisters back and yes, agree that this person
is the devil. Right at some point, Jared to your point.
The next Monday, the next Wednesday, we're like, you know what,
forget him. You should already be on a date with
somebody else, Like we've moved on from it. You don't
plot and plan and scheme and then have one felled
(18:43):
attempt where you're going to use an anvil like you're
a cartoon character. I mean, the whole thing is just
acdine and sad. But again, I think it's important for
people to learn the facts about the case.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Something that really just kills me inside is that these
women were just so unsuspecting. Veronica and Jillian were, you know,
they just they came at them out of the blue.
The affidavits say Cora and Cole were there to divert
the truck. And since we don't know, we don't know
what happened to them. We don't know what was done
(19:17):
to them with stun guns, with you know, a pistol,
We have no idea. So it just it kills me
to think about the fact that those horrific faces were
the last faces that those women ever saw, not their children.
Jillian had four children, she had a husband, she was
a preacher's wife. You know, Veronica's children were still small.
(19:38):
They loved their mom so much, and Veronica was a
great mom. No matter what Tiffany said, Veronica was a
wonderful mother and that's what she should be remembered for.
But my heart breaks for just the families and the children.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
And you know, That's the reason I think this is
so important because to say there were no flags, absolutely
there were. There were flags that were me by Veronica,
by the court, by the police, by extended family. There's
no way that that mother in law kept her mouth shut.
There's no way she didn't send certain text messages, certain threats,
(20:13):
certain you know, she showed her hand. I can guarantee
you she did. Her hatred for that girl was not
hidden in any form or fashion. And I will say this,
I can guarantee that something was going on with that
birthday party where that mother in law said, no, we're
not doing this, No, you can't pick them up here,
(20:33):
No I'm not available. Then and then all of a sudden,
I bet you she said yes. And I bet she
picked the place they were supposed to meet, the abandoned place,
because there wouldn't be no cameras, there wouldn't be no people.
She did that, and once she started driving the train
should have been a clue, unfortunately to both of those women.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
And I'm sure they'll come out, you know, in the trial,
all of these horrific text messages, if they exist, which
again I'm sure they do. But I just would think
to myself, they wouldn't go alone if they had an
inkling that something was going to happen. I mean, it
was reported that Gillian had a mag but not a pistol,
you know. So it's like, if you were suspecting something,
(21:15):
wouldn't you come prepared or bring someone else? And I
do I get like worked up about it because they should.
They should still be alive and the people.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
You're one hundred percent right. But let me tell you something.
Veronica did go with somebody. She thought she was doing
the right thing. She had an officer of the court
for all intents and purposes with her right, so she thought,
Because here's the thing, Lauren. If you say, hey, I'm
going to go here and meet friends for dinner, but
the only way I can get back to my car
is to cut through two alleys, you.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
May not do it.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
But if it's me and you girl come home, you
all of a sudden feel safer, even though it's the
same level of danger.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
I think there was a lot of and I think
maybe there was a naive key and an immortality belief here.
I'm sure Tiffany was a lot more bark prior to
be invite I think that that's the other thing, And
I think, who in the blue hell thinks we're going
to be brutally murdered in broad daylight when we get there.
I mean, there's a false sense of security here that
(22:16):
kids are being exchanged. At that point, you let your
guard down. Her desire to see her children, I'm sure
trumped any personal concern she may have had for herself,
and you know what, have tremendous ruse and motivation to
get her out there. So it's just so sad. And
that's the fascinating thing too about this case is you
have a grandmother acting this way and her friends acting
(22:39):
this way, which is so be Maybe in our experience
it's not foreign, but to people who aren't in the
murder and mayhem business, it's certainly a foreign concept, correct.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
And especially in a little bitty town. You know, that's
another thing that struck me. You know, you're telling me
that in a two minute period of time, she should
have showed up to shange the children, but she didn't.
But that's the exact same moment a complete stranger, a transient,
happened to intersect with them and kidnap both of them
and take them somewhere not a chance and you got
(23:12):
to see it.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
You got to see the area. I mean, Cheryl, I
know you've seen it, but if anybody listening, you've got
to google this area. You know. It's like, guy, I'm
in Oklahoma, Elkhart, Kansas. It's just so rural. It gives
you chills, you know, when you see these pictures and
you see just how abandoned it is. But I know
a lot of the locals are worried. Not I guess
(23:34):
they're worried about the system. And like you said, it's
it's a small town quote unquote, but simmer And County
where they normally live. Cole Twombly's brother is the sheriff.
Now they're being held in Texas County. But I think
a lot of people are worried that somehow the system
is going to fail. And that's also what worries me
(23:55):
as well. With all these proceedings and all of these
motions and these filings, and you know, if they're tried together,
like Jared, it does it freaks me out to think, like,
could anything go wrong if they're tried together? Could they
try three of them together and then you know, two
of them separately. I just it makes me nervous. I mean,
Tiffany wanted a gag order with the media and she
(24:18):
actually listed Nancy Grace's show because Nancy had a headline
that called her killer Granny. And the judge was like, nope, sorry,
you're not getting it, which is a great sign, but
again it makes me nervous.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Well, she didn't lift us, honey, Yeah, yeah, I just think.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Yeah, obviously there are a million things that can go wrong,
but I'm looking at this. You got to trust the system.
You have to have faith in the system here. This
is a tragic, tragic, brutal case. And I don't care
if you're the sheriff for the president of the United States.
They're going to be held accountable and it's gonna take time.
(24:55):
Though Cheryl Lauren doesn't like when I say this, but
this trialing happened until two thousand at least.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, I'm with you on that one.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And listen, you know, I think we ought to just
move on to something that is non controversial, a case
that nobody's talking about, and that's Karen Reid.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Because you're right, that comes my headache.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh my gosh. And here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
All three of us come from a very different place,
and all three of us kind of have the same
Oh no, And I'm just gonna put mine out there first,
and then I'm gonna let y'all take over. And as
a crime scene investigator, here's what blows my freaking mind.
If there's going to be a retrial. If and y'all
(25:45):
hear me, if you don't have a lead detective. Now,
I don't know how many homicide cases y'all ever sat through,
but in forty four years, I have never sat through
one that didn't have a lead detective. You don't have
a chain of custody. You don't have a confession that
was written down, which in my world means you ain't
(26:06):
got one. You don't have a crime scene that was secured.
You have a law enforcement person on the stand that
said the body was pointed out to me that it
was laying over there.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
What so you don't even know where the body was.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
You don't have an expert that can prove a hit
and run from the commonwealth. And this is when I
think I literally just slumped back in my chair when
the FBI interjected themselves in this thing.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Okay, am I the only one that was like, what
is happening? Right now? How is this a thing? And
then my.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Favorite part is afterwards, all these folks are under an
ia and the scariest part, one of them wasn't even
involved in this scene, which tells you it's broader than
they want us to believe. Jarrett Farantino, take it, Oh boy, of.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Where do you go from this? So all of those
points you made are enough for her to walk out
of that courtroom. That's number one. So it's no longer
any one of those points that developed properly by the defense.
I thought her defense a couple of things. Number One,
I think she's totally overcharged in this case. Okay, if
(27:19):
you believe the prosecution, this is a manslaughter case at best. Okay.
Number two, all of the issues you pointed out on
their own are enough for Karen to be acquitted. Here's
what people get confused about. The truth is important, and
it's paranoun, but it doesn't necessarily matter in that courtroom.
(27:39):
What matters is what you can prove, okay. And there's
more to life than being right when you get in there.
So you have all of these investigative issues okay that really,
if they're not solid, you chip away at that beyond
a reasonable doubt my opinion. Okay, that story about what
may have gone on inside the house and things of
(28:01):
that nature, that is a little bit fantastical to me.
I think she walks based on chipping away at the
integrity of the investigation alone. I believe if she did this,
she hit him, She hit him with her car and
took off, never intending to kill him, never thinking he
was going to fall down and die that night. That
(28:22):
is a major issue if it's retried without that lead
investigator and all the things they did, and how damaged
and compromise the credibility of the police are. I've had cases,
believe it or not, where the FBI was collaterally investigating
individuals involved. In my case, it is a black cloud
that hangs over your trial. It makes you extremely nervous,
(28:45):
and it finds its way into that corporate So the
reality is all of those issues you pointed out. If
she gets another trial, you're going to have a hell
of a time getting a conviction, is all.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I can say. All Right, Lauren, you're on that jury.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
So jered you you do think that she hit him
with her car? Most likely?
Speaker 4 (29:08):
That's what I think. That's the most plausible to me,
explanation all other things aside, but again, I don't know
that they're going to be able to get up that hill.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
You said this to me and it always stuck with me,
and they said it on the twenty twenty episode. It's
called something in Latin. But the simplest answer is the
most logical. What is that called.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's called it's called ass whoopus?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Wait, well whatever? And you know, I thought about it,
and I'm like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. And then
I sat through the trial and I was like, no
way is she getting convicted. I was even surprised that
there was a mistrial based on everything that I saw,
and I'm talking everything from the dufist that is Trooper Paul.
(29:53):
And I'm actually a really nice person, but that was
so hard to sit through. And then, Cheryl, when you mentioned,
you know, they're affectionately known on the internet as crash
Daddy's but Arca, who was hired by the FEDS when
they came in, and I mean, these guys had their doctorates,
they you know, they just they were incredible. They were
(30:14):
absolutely incredible, and they convinced me there was no way
that John was hit by a car. You know, they
convinced me of this, and then you know, I studied
these witnesses and even some of the officers. I mean,
you know, you've got Officer Sarah who did not once
say to the grand jury that he heard Karen Reid
(30:34):
say she hit him, she hit him, she had him, Oh,
I hit him. He did not stay that to the
grand jury. He didn't put that in any reports. And
yet he's up there on the stand saying that he
heard that. And this goes for many other witnesses. And sorry,
I feel like I'm yelling right now because I just
get so I know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Jared. Listen now, Jarreed, you're Italian. You know that's just passion.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
My hands go like crazy, we literally mine are.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
But yeah, you'll have to forgive me. My voice is
very loud. But no, every single witness, in my opinion,
was off. They had something to hide. And Cheryl, it's
your fault for introducing me to Peter Hyatt, because I
break everything down. When Matt McCabe, yeah, who was supposed
to be a friend of Officer John o'keef, is texting
(31:26):
Brian Albert saying the guy never went in the house
and then Albert writes back, exactly, I've said this before,
but this is like what my eight year old daughter
and I do to my son when I don't want
him to have ice cream. I say, hey, the ice
cream shop is closed, and Paisley says, yeah, exactly. And
we're trying to like make this whole you know what
(31:47):
I'm saying, And sure, yeah, there's there's that, there's the
fact that, and listen, it could mean nothing. But if
you don't believe in coincidences, there's too many, right they
sell thirty four Affair of You. The police never go
inside the house or actually, I'm sorry, they went inside
the house, but they didn't inspect the basement or do
anything in the basement. They rehomed the dog. When John's
arm shows up and people say, oh, it looks like
(32:10):
dog bites, and Marie, doctor Marie Russell went on the
stand and said, those are definitely dog bites. I mean,
there are so many things here that to me were like, okay,
I'm not buying it. But then again, the whole conspiracy
of him being in the house getting the shit kicked
out of him being dragged outside, I don't know about
(32:31):
that either. And I've thought of these things in my head,
but it's not really my job to come up with
what tragically happened to Officer O'Keefe. It's not my job.
But still I'm not convinced of either one that he
was killed in the house and dragged as I'm just
not I'm not convinced that that she hit him. I
mean the black blob that one of the witnesses saw, Like,
no one's talking about that either. It's just everything doesn't
(32:54):
make sense. I'm sorry that was long winded, and I
actually probably could go on for another twenty minutes, which
is so sad.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
But do you know what that is. That's a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Oh, it's a lot of doubts.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
And listen.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
And that's why early on I tweeted that this is
Casey Anthony and Mark Furman had a baby?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Is Troop or Proctor?
Speaker 1 (33:17):
And let me tell you why I said that, because
a lot of people didn't understand my reference.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
My reference was.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
One of the first times Nancy Grace ever cut my mic.
Is when I said Casey Anthony was going to walk
out of that courtroom.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
And here's the reason I said it.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
You could not find me a picture of her and
that baby that they weren't happy. That baby was clean,
that baby was happy, That baby was healthy, she was dressed, adorable,
She was playing with something all the time. Casey was
tossing her in the air, she was hugging her. They
were in the pool, they were at the beach. You
(33:53):
couldn't find me anything visually to show me that was
not a happy mama and child. To me, that was relevant.
And the second thing that I could not get away from.
I could ask fifty people, how do you think the
baby died? Everybody has a different answer. It was an
accidental drowning. She accidentally got in mama's drugs. Mamma used chloroform.
(34:15):
I think she maybe fail and hit her head and
Mama freaked out. Nobody can tell me how that baby died.
If you don't know how the baby died, you ain't
got murder. Same with John O'Keefe. If you cannot tell
me how he died, you ain't got murder. And the
thing is, you take that arm, and you show that
arm to one hundred nurses, I guarantee you eighty five
percent are going to say dog bite because they've seen
(34:37):
it that many times. If you look at the injury.
What are the odds? And if you look at the
pieces of the tail, like, you cannot find one piece
that would make those parallel scratches.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
No tailate's plastic, Cheryl, what about that whole thing?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Right?
Speaker 1 (34:54):
But even if you have that, but even if you
have that little tip, it's going to make one scratch,
not two parallel scratches. And then they it's like two
and two and two and two and they're slightly in
different directions.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Not possible. I mean I called it a magic tail light.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
The cocktail loss was intact too, So that's the other thing.
It's like, couldn't have been glass either, and there wouldn't
I mean, yeah, I didn't go into the details, but
there would have been a lot more damage to the car.
I mean, and you know what pisces me off to
is the reason or one of the reasons they upped
the charge to murder is because of the messages, like
the hate messages that she left him after she murdered him.
(35:35):
I mean, right, totally. And Jared, we've talked about this
where I think it was it was like Scott Peterson,
Jody Arius, They're leaving me sweet messages after they you know,
murdered their spouse. The only person that left those horrific
messages was Betty Broderick, and she, you know, she had
some well documented issues and had done a few other
(35:58):
things besides leave messages like that. But I was just
everything just bothered me so much about this, and it
really just grinds my gears about you know, just the
state of Massachusetts, and they just need to get their
act together, my goodness.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
In the end, Cheryl, you make a powerful point. You
take the Casey Anthony pictures and the failure to really
explain the death and the murder. That's really what the
heart of the Karen Reid case is. If you can't
convince them what the hell happened, how can you convince
them who's responsible? What happened? Is question number one? Who
(36:31):
done it? Is question number two. If you can't answer one,
you got nothing.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And question number three should never even get in there,
but it's going to and that is how does three
police departments and fifteen people missed the tail light but
Proctor suddenly found it.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
That's where the Mark Furman comes in. Then I didn't
even mention it.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
In my first little die tribe his text messages, so
you say that till the end. And now they won't
even tell us the rest of what they found on
that phone because they know they know it's going to
blow up. Oh, I don't know, sixteen twenty more cases.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Yeah, like the Anna Walsh case. Proctor was one of
the lead detectives on that. And you know, I was
very shocked because whether you like him or hate him,
Turtle Boy, Aiden Carney and I'm not even talking but
anything else he's done except for this. He did interview
a juror, and this juror did not was not one
(37:26):
of the jurors that went to the defense or to
the state. But this juror said that they thought that
the Canton police were the ones that were not great,
not you know, just not did a horrible job, and
that the mass Date Police did a good job because
they're the ones that found the tail light. So I
was I was shocked at that. I was like, wait, really,
(37:48):
you're not really grouping them as one and doing this
god awful investigation. They actually had more respect for the
mass State Police minus Procter.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
And y'all, I think there's cases he's we've never heard
of that whatever they found in that phone, I mean
the prosecutor flat said, I mean people would be in
danger if they released it.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
What does that tell you?
Speaker 4 (38:11):
That should be a lesson to every investigator out there.
Don't don't be stupid. If oh, could you imagine sitting
in that courtroom with your lead detective reading those texts,
I would have threw a shoe at him.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Let me tell you, I told my chief this needs
to be shown at every single police academy in the country.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Well, I'm speaking at the Pennsylvania State Police Academy in
two weeks, and I promise you there will be a
picture of Proctor incorporated into my presentation.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
And you know, to me, the most damming of the
whole thing is when the defense attorney said, read this,
and then he his own words, he said C word
and the defense startey said, no, no, no, that ain't
what you wrote.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
You know you read what you wrote.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
So that to me, that to me even showed buddy,
that's how bad you know this is.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You don't even want to say it.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Yes, and it's just funny that you said that. Sorry,
it's not funny. I shouldn't say that. But because I've
watched that whole thing so many times, he's looking down
and he says the C word, and then Judge Canoni says,
these are your words, Trooper Proctor, Yes, your honor, go
ahead and say them. I literally I'm like, yes, for once, Judge,
I agree with you. Go ahead and say them.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
I mean, that's what you sent to God and country.
You didn't care who saw it. You knew it was
a possibility that this was going to happen.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
Sure one of the other things too. Another lesson to
be taken from this. You know, go back to your
police officers. I know you talk to police officers all
over the country and investigators like, be smart about what
you're putting on social media, be smart about what you're
liking and sharing. I do that whenever I speak. I
speak at these academies and I tell them, and I
(39:57):
see the same look on their faces, like they're like, oh, shoot,
that text or that Facebook joke that I liked that
could be inferred as racist, or a picture of me
passed out drunk. I say, go clean up your Facebook,
go clean up your Instagram, because all of that is
fair game and it's public. These are the kind of
(40:19):
things you want to wear that badge, and then inevitably
somebody will say freedom of speech. This I'll tell you why.
When you're on the stand and you're in the hot
seat and somebody's bringing up some racial slur you made
up or you made two years ago, I'm going to
yell up from my seat. Remember the first Amendment. I
hope you're happy. You know.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Mark Furman used one word a lot about it. This
man used horrible language, horrible situations. He brought up suicide,
he brought up her medical event, he used profanity. I
mean he hit all the highlights. Because there's nobody sitting
in that jurabox that has not been affected by suicide
in some way. A childhood friend, a family friend, a coworker.
(41:04):
No way, you've escaped that. And then you bring up
such horrible words regarding women. Well, you offended somebody, at
least one. I mean, there was nothing that he said.
And then when he went to her health issues, I
don't care who you are, that is not okay what
he did. So to me, he was just after he
(41:25):
had been discredited and after he looked like a fool. No,
I didn't go to the crime scene. What lead detective
doesn't go to the homicide crime scene. I know it
was a joke, and then no, I don't write it down.
You don't write it down, You don't make sure that
scene is secure, you don't make sure that you bring
in the very best person that you've got. And remember,
(41:48):
this is a homicide of a police officer, not that
they would get special treatment, not that they're going to
get things other people don't get. But you absolutely know
in your heart you're not fixing a call Boston until
tell them you didn't do everything perfect.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
And imagine for a moment if this is one hundred
percent true Karen Reid. This is just for the purposes
of my point. Imagine if it's one hundred percent true
that Karen Reid caused the death of John O'Keefe. Could
you imagine what an embarrassment it is when another officer
is there prosecuting the death of a colleague, of a brother,
(42:22):
and that's what's being read. His disrespectful And here's what happened, Cheryl.
Not only is his he's in he's uncredible. Now his
texts were incredible. And here's why. It shows a level
of immaturity, It shows stupidity, and worse, it shows an
animus in a disregard for Karen Reid and her rights
(42:45):
and all of that that cocktail together spell's disaster for
anybody looking to have faith in anything.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
He's said well stated, And that's why I've told people
they're never going to retry her.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
They're not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
How how do you do it without a detective that
ran the show supposedly? How do you do it with
no new evidence, no decent eyewitness, They've lost the video.
The other video is inverted in backwards. I mean, what
are we doing?
Speaker 3 (43:13):
Yeah, it's really bad. It's gross. That whole department seemed
like they were just so misogynousts and just going back
to like not one person was like, hey, maybe don't
put this in writing. Hey and maybe you know, no
one said don't do that. That's wrong. I mean, it's
just gross.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
And when you look at the internal affairs investigations, there's
some folks that got caught in that net that were
not involved in this case.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
And that tells me all I need.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
It's wider and deeper and uglier than they have let
us know.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Think about Kevin Albert, who Procter was forced to admit
on this stand and also, like all these people drinking
and driving, and like I said, Proctor and Kevin Albert
were forced to admit that they were in a police
cruiser in the Cape drinking and he left his badge
and gun there. I mean, it's just it's absurd. And
all of these people who who it's a blizzard out
(44:08):
and you're at a bar and you're having X many
drinks and you're all getting in your car. I mean,
Karen included here. This is it's just weird. And they
all seem to not care about letting underaged kids drink.
I mean this whole I get it, small town, but
my goodness.
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Taking Rhodies out of the bar to the next bar.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
And that's why I've said the Commonweltz case gets weaker,
it cannot ever get stronger.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
I agree with every passing day. And here's the other thing.
Even if they were to retry this and get her Cheryl,
she's going to remain out on bail with all these
collateral issues out there. The federal investigation that case has
to get through a jury to beyond a reasonable doubt
and survive the rigors of appeals that are forthcoming. And
(44:59):
this federal investigation that hangs over, which will inevitably result
in challenges to the case that was ultimately made if
it's made against Karen Reid. So even if they get her,
Karen Reid does not go to jail.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Well, Jared, I'll say this to you.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
You said that you believe she was overcharged. I think
Casey Anthony was overcharged too. But I think if you
have a second trial and you even attempt to overcharge her,
I think that's an ethics issue because you know you
don't have it.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
A jury has already told you you don't have it.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
Well, and again, I think it's such a political football
and everything out there. I believe she was overcharged, you know,
to take those texts and make it intense. So what
was her plan? To slightly back over him with the
car or knock him down with the car and h
til it out of there. That was her intention, and
that he would die in the snow like a dog
(45:58):
like that would happen. So you would say, Okay, she
was pissed off. This gives her intent. This is the
plan she comes up with. I mean, let me knock
him down, let him die in the snot that's the problem.
Why it's an overcharge. None of it makes sense. They
don't meld together very easily. So if they go to
round two, trial number two, my recommendation would be go
(46:20):
all in on the manslaughter, say this was the way
it happened, was reckless, whatever she took off, and focus
on that. But again, you still run into all the problems.
The integrity of the scene, all of that is still
tested in that scenario as well.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
But they had the chance to. I mean, I think
the state still could drop the two charges, but they
just argued in front of Judge Canoni and she wouldn't budge.
Everything is sticking, So I mean, that is hu. It's
crazy to me, and it's so true, Like you said,
that was her plan back over him while people are
going inside this party, I mean, this house. It's so silly.
(46:58):
And then call him out and call him a pervert
and say you're with his kids? Where is he? And
listen those voicemails. She's pretty truthful if you ask me.
She's pretty damn angry.
Speaker 4 (47:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
But again, you know, y'all mentioned the perfect storm.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
What police officer that has a stranger dead on their
front lawn don't come out of the house, so you're
telling me these police officers did not come outside with
their friend dead in the front yard.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
No, Brian Albert did not go outside, not.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
But the other people didn't come either, Remember, so you
know you let the girlfriend go, but you don't come
Like none of this makes any sense to me that
that would never be true in my world.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
That would never exist.
Speaker 4 (47:45):
Just even if you weren't a police officer.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
They're on your front lawn one hundred percent, one hundred percent.
But there's no way a police officer ain't going out there.
There's no chance. All right, So before we go and
has flown by. So y'all have got to come back
because I didn't even get to the missing people that
y'all highlight and the important work you're doing. Just tell
(48:08):
everybody a little bit more about your show and direct
them to how to get there, because they don't need
to miss this at all.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
Well, let me say this. On Wednesday nights at eight
o'clock on YouTube Primetime crime show Lauren and I Go Live,
I spent the first part of my podcasting life talking
to myself. I wanted to find a partner that raises
the issues and did an independent investigation and ask the
questions that everybody out there had, and Lauren is that person.
(48:40):
I try, with my background as best I can to
break down the law and whatever major true crime big
cases out there. Lauren and I and our conversations and
our guests. Our hope is to contribute to solving some
unsolved cases and really explain to people is our system working,
(49:01):
how's it working? And dispel misconceptions out there, and really
educate and entertain, because, believe it or not, in all
this murder and mayhemon blood and guts. One of the
other goals I have on every episode is to try
to make Lauren laugh.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
So we try to get there, right, Lauren, Yes, So
we get there sometimes, and he also keeps me in line. Hey, Lauren,
that's defamatory.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
No, I'm just kidding, and not get soon.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
Yeah exactly, And I'm not good soon. But no, Jared,
he nails it. But we also we cover big stories
that everybody wants to hear about, but it is important
to us to also cover small stories. And that's why
I think that the true crime community in general is
just amazing, and people might have misconceptions about people that
are into, you know, stories that involve missing people or
(49:47):
missing children, but really it's this community coming together that
helps solve them, which is so incredible to me. I mean,
just tagging reporters, content creators, you Nancy Grace in certain
missing people's cases, and you know Nancy will cover it
on her show or will cover it, and I mean,
you know, Nancy is the queen. She's in, you know,
(50:09):
a different stratosphere than you know, Jara and I obviously,
but it's like we we look up to her and
we see what she's doing, and we would love to
highlight cases like that and and help solve them because
it's just, you know, it's it's it's becoming a thing
now for for cyberus loops and content creators and just
people on the internet to help solve murders and find
(50:33):
missing people. So we want to contribute to that.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
I've had the opportunity to work independently with both of
you extraordinary individually, but together, honey, y'all are own to something.
So I just I can't wait to see what y'all
do next and anything I can do to help call me.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
You know, I won't hesitate, Cheryl. I never hesitated so much, y'all.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Find a group of people who challenge and inspire you,
and spend a lot of time with them. It'll change
your life, Amy Poehler. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is
Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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