LISK (Long Island Serial Killer) Panel: A Zone 7 Discussion

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
I loved Miss Mitchell, my sixth grade teacher, for many reasons,
but one thing she used to always do for us
made me feel so much more confident on my projects.
About a half hour before the bell would ring and
our projects were due, she would say, now, y'all, get
you a buddy and let that buddy review your work

(00:33):
and they can make two free changes or corrections. So
if you mispelled a word, or didn't have a common
in the right place, or you needed to fix that
dangling modifier, now is your time. And then she would
give you the opportunity to do that with a friend.
And I can hear her right now, she would say, class,

(00:55):
it's time to find the buddy and get a new
viewpoint on your project. A different outlook's important. Let your
friends help you. They have good judgment. This is how
I feel about tonight's panel. They have great viewpoints, They
are solid in their understanding of how these cases work,

(01:20):
how to interpret what's happening, and they have outstanding judgment.
I have asked them to help me with this project
to understand what is going on with the Long Island
serial killer. Now, just to give you all a quick overview,
the first victim Gilbert, twenty four, was last seen May one,
twenty ten. She wanted to be an actress. At the

(01:43):
time of her disappearance, she was working as a sex worker.
Police started to search for her along Ocean Parkway. Shockingly,
four more bodies were discovered over a three day period
of time. All of the remains were in about a
half a mile roughly five hundred feet apart. Now experts

(02:04):
recognize this as possibly a dumping ground for a serial killer.
There was virtually no doubt in my mind that's what
it was. Police began to link some of the other
victims their profession, the area they were taken from, in
the area they were disposed in. Another victim, Waterman, twenty

(02:24):
two years old, was from Maine, but she had been
working as an escort off Craigslist. Three other victims Barns,
twenty five year old from Norwich, Connecticut, another victim twenty
four from the Bronx, another victim twenty seven from Long Island.
They were all working as sex workers. April fourth, twenty eleven.

(02:49):
By now, law enforcement has recovered eight women and one
man who was wearing women's clothing. December thirteenth, law enforcement
announced Gilbert's remains have been identified. January sixteenth, twenty twenty,
police released the first major clue to the public. Now
I'm gonna tell you all right now, I thought this

(03:12):
piece of evidence was going to break this thing wide open.
It was a leather belt, but it almost looked like
an old piece of clothing, something that a grandfather would
have had, and it had letters on it, and nobody
knew whether the letters were WH or HM. But I thought,

(03:34):
there's got to be DNA on it. There might be
some blood on it, but surely somebody's gonna recognize that
in a family, it looked like an heirloom. July thirteenth,
twenty twenty three, unarrest was finally made, and tonight we
have one of the best panels to come together and

(03:57):
look at this thing from a three sixty one vortex.
Like I've talked about in the past, every different possible
avenue that I can think of right now is coming
to the table. I'm lucky enough to not just admire
these folks and get to work with these folks, but
they are genuinely my friends and solidly in my Zone seven.

(04:22):
I'm gonna start with retired NYPD Sergeant Joseph Jackloone. He
was in the Bronx as the head of their cold
case squad. He was part of the cold case task
Force in the homicide Unit. He taught at the Homicide
School for NYPD. He is, without a doubt, somebody that

(04:43):
can take a ton of information and funnel it down
in the simplest form. He is a professor at the
John Jay College of Criminal Justice, and he has a
teacher's heart. You can hear it when he talks and
explains these cases. Has just kind of, I think, blown
my mind on a couple of levels. But you and

(05:05):
I know, and we've talked before, that at a rest
doesn't mean the investigation is over. So can you talk
a little bit about what law enforcement is doing after
they have this person in custody.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
So when you're building a case, whether it's an ordinary
case or a cold case like this with lots of
moving parts and victims, you always have to present the
case as if this is going to trial, because in
this situation, it will. Even when you have a case
that is ten years old and you don't think you're
ever going to solve it, you're always preparing for that
day and you got your eyes and cross your t's

(05:41):
and you have to make sure you have all your
inculpatory evidence and your exculpatory right things that include and
exclude suspects, because the defense attorney is going to be
going after certain things and saying it's not my guy,
which is the defense attorney is already doing right. They
got the wrong guy at somebody else. So that's why
it's very important to make sure you the case buttoned up.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Now we see law enforcement again. They're going to storage rooms,
they're looking at his vehicles, they're digging in the backyard.
They've already identified these burner phones and computer searches and
the guns. As you're kind of wading through some of this,
what do you think right now is the most intriguing
piece of evidence to you?

Speaker 2 (06:22):
Well, right now, I want to know what they found
in the storage facility. Right, So they went to the
storage facility and then a few hours later the a
medical examiner showed up. So to me, that was a
definitely red flag. I mean, you don't call the medical
examiner unless you find something that needs to be examined
by them. So it was a very interesting aspect of things.
And if the anthropologist would have showed up, I probably

(06:43):
would have fallen off my chair. So yeah, the issue
that comes down to is, like I've done a number
of cold case digs. When I was working doing this stuff.
We always had the medical examiner or a medical legal
investigator which people refer to as an MLI at the
scene while we start. But you know, in New York
City there's a lot of different mlis that you can
do it. In Suffer County, it's a much smaller place

(07:04):
and they might not have one available, so that could
have been a reason why they called them after the fact.
But still it is a very intriguing We know from
past cases serial killers could hold trophies back. That kind
of material would be extremely important to this case specifically.
There are a number of other victims that haven't been

(07:25):
attributed to him. That doesn't mean that they will be,
but you know as well as I do, that they
need to make sure that they have the right guy
for a lot of different reasons.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
You and I were texting each other in the instant
message system. I don't even know what it's called, but
we were in live time talking to each other when
the medical examiner showed up, and I'm going to tell
you I about did fall out of my chair because
to your point, he ain't called but for one thing,
and that's for some type of body.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Part, exactly right. So that was a really foretelling kind
of issue for me anyway, And I think, you know,
a couple people picked up on it, But as soon
as I saw that on the TV, I tweeted it
out and the thing went crazy on it because everyone
knows pretty much what that means. We have a lot

(08:14):
of we have a lot of faith right now going
on in this investigation, just from the base of the
quality of the investigation on the digital forensics and the
DNA and everything else. So this was an especially unique
opportunity to see exactly what's transpiring.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Doctor Jonie Johnson, the forensic psychologist, PI author, crime writer.
She's gonna help us maintain this balance that all of
these cases have at least two sides. All right, doctor Joni,
I'm gonna come to you pretty quick out of the gate,
because you got to tell us about this guy. How

(08:52):
do you function as a professional, raise children, maintain a marriage,
and at the same time be this predatory killer.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
It is pretty astonishing how much some people can compartmentalize
different parts of their lives. And this is clearly if
this person is the perpetrator, and there seems to be
a tremendous amount of evidence suggesting that's true. He truly
was a master at it. I mean, this is somebody,
like you said, he's married, he's got children, he has

(09:23):
a successful business, and yet there seems to be this
secret life that is completely separate from his day to
day operation. You know, I've had several police officers, I'm
sure you can relate to this, probably Cheryl, who will
talk about being at a homicide scene and then going
home and hugging their you know, small children and just
having to take off mentally one hat and put another

(09:44):
one on and just slip into a different role. This
is obviously an extreme version of that.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
That's a good point. Do you think we're going to
see the serial killer hat trick? You know, when they
want to control and they want to dominate, and they
want to, you know, just have this whole function where
they're manipulating people and dominating their victims and controlling the situation.
Do you think we're going to see aspects of that
as they go through some of the things that he

(10:11):
has been accused of doing already, and some of the
people that are coming forward telling stories about how he
approached them.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, I think that's interesting that so many people are
coming forward. We have to take that just a little
bit with the grain of salt, because we know that
when we know the kind of outcome of what's happened recently,
it's easy for people to kind of go back and
remember things. But the thing that stands out the most
for me in terms of the evidence so far is
just the amount of sadism and cruelty that seem to

(10:39):
be in this perpetrator, all the way from the pornography
and some of the searches that he was making to
just taunting the family of his victims. I mean, that
is so scary because that suggests that this really is
every person's worst nightmare.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
One thing that stuck out to me is when they're
taking items out of the home. There was one Playboy
magazine and it looks like it's the issue that had
the last pictures of Marilyn Monroe, the nude pictures. If
that's the case, that magazine is from the eighties, and
that's where he would have been a much younger man.

(11:18):
And again there's some people that think she was murdered,
you know, perhaps tortured. So if that's something he's reading
as a young person, and it's something he has kept
in Christine condition, again, this is something that he does
full time.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
Well, I would be very surprised to learn that he
started killing in his forties. I mean, we all know
that murder seems to be a young person's gang for
the most part, and most serial killers start in their twenties,
you know, early to mid twenties, sometimes even their late teens.
So I am hoping that I'm wrong and the evidence

(11:58):
will not such port that, but I would certainly put
a dollar on it that this was not his first
radio in terms of two thousand and seven.

Speaker 1 (12:07):
Y'all know Lisa Rabbikoff, she's been here before, polygrapher, polygraph examiner,
polygraph expert. She's going to figure out whether or not
you're line to the best of her ability, Lisa rabbit Cough,
if he was willing to talk, what questions would you
have for him and in what order?

Speaker 4 (12:28):
The first question I'm not going to ask him is why,
because that's not the answer that he's going to be
forthcoming with right off the bat. It's definitely going to
take a seasoned investigator with an extensive training in interviewing
as well as interrogation to go ahead and reach the
rapport with him to acquire that information. I think that

(12:51):
if more and more evidence ties him to additional victims,
that eventually he is going to start singing and he's
going to start give over some details. But right now,
just taking a look at his booking photo, we know
working in the industry that usually the eyes tell a
story behind a lot of different things. His booking photo,

(13:12):
if you take a look at his mouth, he kind
of has some sort of a smart and a smile
to it, which definitely is very unsettling given the fact
that his first comment in court when his counsel was
assigned to him by the Suffolk County eighteen a felony
panel was is this on the news? So he's more

(13:32):
so looking as I believe in the limelight of what
is my reputation? What do people think about me? And
he's going to care more about the public perception of
him as an individual. The questions that I would focus on,
I would probably start discussing his family. I would start
talking about the relationship with his children. The media has

(13:53):
outlined that he does have his daughter, Victoria, who was
an employee at his firm in the working in Midtown
as graduate from NYIT. She does have a background in
online and technical I guess photoshop illustrator kind of doing
visual effects, which could play into her role at the firm.

(14:16):
But he does have his son, as per the media reports,
with special needs, and there isn't much information that's coming
out regarding him, so I would definitely want to discuss
and play into his fatherly role and get him comfortable
talking about the dynamics. I would also not start discussing
with him his first marriage, because obviously there is a divorce.

(14:38):
I don't want to go ahead and possibly draw bad
blood and get him to shut down and start being
accusatory as to maybe infidelity or reasons that he could
have been at fault for that termination of marriage. But
I would definitely go about discussing his family, his history upbringing,
but also not going into questioning whether or not he
was ever a victim of any sexual or physical abuse

(15:00):
from family members or anyone in his life, because again,
rapport is the biggest thing. When we need to go
ahead and have a suspect discuss anything with us.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
That's an excellent point, and I think, look at his
double life starting with the light that he would not
be in any way hesitant to talk about is brilliant.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, I think from my perspective, Look, so I was
part of a detective squad, and of course the cool
cause squad, I might have taken an approach where having
a female detective do my interview for me and see
how that would go in regards to if he wants
to try to manipulate her or dominate her and that
kind of thing, or really kind of get under his

(15:37):
skin that way too. So I think that might be
a tactic that I would have used, and we don't
know if if they use that.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, I like that all day. We have a special, special,
special guest. We met, we became buddies. She's somebody that
I rely on to kind of keep me balanced in
what I say, because again, sometimes in my world, I
can just see a perpetrator and that's sometimes how I
talk about them, that they're guilty before the trial starts.

(16:06):
But Carrie Rawson is the daughter of the BTK killer.
I think she's one of the bravest people that I know,
because again I'm somewhat guarded when it comes to private information.
I'm not one of those people that shares intimate details
of things. And it always amazes me when somebody so
willingly will just come out and say, this was the

(16:30):
darkest moment of my life and I'm going to tell
you all about it, and she opens herself up I
think in just a tremendous caring way, because she's actually
given us information. I think it's a tremendous help.

Speaker 5 (16:45):
I also would interject to use the tactic not only
of a female, but like you've got to come in
from a level of respect, like like you all know
what I mean, Like you have to wall off that
horror that's going on in your insides. Why you're like
you have to respect them and meet them face to face,
and you almost have to seem almost well by like

(17:07):
what they've done and like you're like, wow, can you
tell me more about that? Like why are they wrapped
in burlap? And you know how you know you don't
make me go to count right away, but like you
show like genuine interests and you can't fake it. But
these guys can see like right through to your souls,
So you have to be like walled off, prepared, and you.

Speaker 6 (17:30):
If you don't know your stuff, they're.

Speaker 5 (17:31):
Gonna just call you out and they're gonna be like, Nope,
I'm talking to somebody else.

Speaker 6 (17:35):
I'm not talking to you.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
And Carrie, that's a great point we also have with us.
Mike Morford, we call him more. He's a podcast extraordinary,
that podcast Criminology. Check it out. It's unbelievable. And tonight
he's bringing all of his brilliance right here for us.
I want to talk a little bit about how important

(18:00):
podcasters have been on this case, the media in general,
but podcasters specifically.

Speaker 7 (18:06):
Well, I think it's important when you want to get
the word out about, you know, a case, if you're
an investigator that's wanting to get this out to more people,
so more people talk about it, shared on social media,
provide clues, come forward with tips. You know, a podcast
is you know, a tremendous way to do that. You know,

(18:27):
you can advertise on TV, you can put it on
all the news shows you want. But you know, if
you're not tapping into something like podcast that millions of
people listen to, you're missing out on a good option
for getting more attention for those cases.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
And I tell people all the time. Everybody has a gift.
Somebody's vocation or advocation could assist in some way that
you don't even know as possible. And some of the
graphics that I've seen, some of the maps, have blown
my mind that Seville, for lack of a better term,
have put together on this case.

Speaker 7 (19:03):
Yeah, there's no doubt that when you get a collective
of people with different skills, different backgrounds that are able
to help move case forward, it's a good thing and
it lends itself to possibly being solved easier because you're
getting that much more attention for it.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Now, Carrie, I want to go back to you for
a second, and I know this is not easy. I
know that you don't take any joy from this. This
is not something you look forward to doing, so right
off the bat, I want to tell you I appreciate
you being here, and I do think you're one of
the bravest people that I know, because you are so
willing to share a part of your life that was

(19:47):
just horrific, but for the purposes of what we have
understood happened on Long Island. Talk to us about that
knock at the door.

Speaker 5 (19:58):
So it's my hope for a Rexist family that. You know,
we were told he was arrested Thursday night. So it
is my hope that they went and quietly notified the
family and gave them Thursday night and then had them
hunkered down away from media by Friday morning. You know,
I'm hearing that maybe they weren't quite ready for media

(20:19):
to break as early as as it did, so there
was a bit of a management scramble, I think on
Friday for Long Island. For in my case, they had
been looking for my dad for thirty one years for
murders from seventy four to ninety one. Then he was
playing games for about a year when he came back

(20:40):
so FBI KBI, which everybody was looking for him, and had
like this massive DNA swabamon and a bunch of insanity.
So they narrowed it down to my dad about a
week before they arrested him due to a floppy disk.
Then they got my DNA and so that came back
that Thursday night that it was match to my dad,

(21:01):
and so the next morning then they had concocted a
plan and they arrested him on his way home for
lunch and then around the block. Then they went and
knocked on my mom's door at the very same time.

Speaker 6 (21:13):
Then an FBI agent notified.

Speaker 5 (21:15):
Me in Michigan and went to went to Connecticut to
notify my brother at the Navy. So they they planned
it with the FBI so that nobody could talk to
each other. And so when I was I didn't even
want to let the FBI agent into my house and
then he literally just dropped the bomb on me that
Dad was BTK and they didn't let us talk to

(21:36):
each other. I didn't even get ahold of family till
like later that evening.

Speaker 6 (21:40):
They didn't. They they needed to.

Speaker 5 (21:41):
Clear us before we could start talking to each other.
So they like they were real careful about that. But
like when you're talking about potentially what long Island's family
is going through, I mean you're just talking about utter
freaking hell and shock, like it just lands on you
like a bomb. And call it the before and the after, right,
And so we have before Dad was arrested and after,

(22:05):
and I still do that. I just have to say
before or after, and everybody knows what I mean.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Sergeant, I want to go back to you for a second,
and I want to ask you, when you're working a
task force like this, how difficult, is it to get
everybody to stay on the same page and move as
one systematic unit.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, that's the million dollar question, right, And this is
just not you know, one department, right. So you had
the state Police, you had the FBI, you have Suffolk County,
you have Nassau County. You have probably the Park's rangers
on this too, because that's I believe that's where the
who's really in control of that landown there. So you
have so many different agencies, so many different egos, so

(22:47):
many different things going on. I think it's just a
testament to the Police Commission in Suffer County, Rodney Harrison,
for putting this team together, inviting the right people, and
being able to control all of that fo of information
and making sure that nothing slipped through the cracks. As
weeks and months and years go by, We're going to
hear a lot more as this case goes closer to trial,

(23:09):
and we will hear about all those investigative steps and
different things, because remember, there are so many missteps that
happened prior to this, over the ten or eleven year
period before it. It's really I hate to use the
word biracle, but it's like pulling the rabbit out of
a hat when you know, if you know the case
very well, this is like, it's really an amazement that

(23:32):
they pulled this off.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
I agree. And how Davin wide and twisted? Do you
think this thing's fixing again?

Speaker 2 (23:40):
Well, I think it's going to get more interesting. Right,
So we have the victor Maureen Brainerd Barnes, who was
the last part of the GILG four. I believe they
were what they said in the press conference, they we're
waiting for forensic tests to come back on that because
the DNA was kind of messed up from being out
in the elements in that area. So I think they're
waiting on some of the new technolo Jesus se if
they can put her with him too. I mean, and listen,

(24:04):
I've said this long ago. You can look back in
the annals of my interviews and I said it was
me doing this. I would I would have focused in
on the GILG four because we can all agree that
they were all killed by the same person. The other
the other seven you know, maybe right, but there's going
to be cases dating back as far as nineteen ninety six.

(24:24):
So you know, as well as I do, a lot
of the forensics wasn't even you know, cops weren't even
aware of it back then, So they're going to have
some difficulty putting those cases together, unless, of course, he confesses.
But New York State doesn't. You know, they have the
death penalty, but they'll never use it and they'll never
hold that against them. But I think they either would

(24:44):
be able to hold that against them to see if
you can come forward or maybe go go federal with this.
I mean, they could still end up going federal on it,
So it's going to be interesting to see what happens
with that.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Doctor Jony. Sometimes I will have a parallel investigation almost
things like your job kind of does the same thing.
So on the one hand, you're trying to profile this guy,
but on the other hand, you may be putting together
a care plan for the perpetrator's family, so it's not
just the victim's side of this case, but the other

(25:18):
family as well.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
That's such a good point, And I know Carrie can
speak to this a lot more eloquently and personally than
I can, but I definitely that it's just so, so truly,
and I'm glad that you brought that up, because you know,
these are victims, and I'm not necessarily saying there are
the same victims as the victims' families, but they will
also be grieving the loss of who they thought this

(25:41):
person was if't is in fact the perpetrator, And so
I think it is important. I've seen really horrendous things posted,
not on this case per se, but on other you know,
on websites and social media about family members. There's always
this I think, belief or this assumption that they somehow
knew and they're protecting this person, or they should have
known or whatever. This need to assign blame, I think

(26:04):
to the whole family, this kind of spillover effect. And
you know, obviously there have been cases where there have
been families who participated, but I think that's definitely the
exception rather than the rule. And often the families are
just blindsided by this and they're just scrambling around trying
to figure out what's going on. At the same time,
the media is descending on them, and you know, people
are sending them hate mail or whatever. So I think

(26:26):
it is important to realize that this family, as Scary
said earlier, does need some protection and some empathy.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Lisa, you're their own long out what is the pulse
like of that community.

Speaker 4 (26:41):
I actually live door to door without traffic, twenty three
minutes from the crime scene. And this case has not
only kept our community and my community, I mean both
NASA and counties which make up half of Long Island

(27:05):
on edge constantly and always. But now that we know
where this individual has been residing this whole time, it's
almost like a game of operation where the game starts
shaking and the pieces get moving and next thing you know,
everything pops. And that's kind of where childhood anxiety comes

(27:26):
from sometimes. But it's just everyone is still on pins
and needles because right now we have an abundance of
victims that we know of. However, we're also taking into
account the fact of the amount of beaches that take
up Long Island. How many other victims are there of

(27:48):
him that have not been accounted for because it's coming
out that he used to be an employee of the
New York State Parks Association or the New York State
Police Parks, things like that. But as a beach worker
in the seventies and eighties, so he's had access to
vehicles beach, he knows the terrain, he's had properties there

(28:13):
pretty much. He's residing in the childhood family home, which
is from his grandparents actually, so he definitely has roots,
he knows the area, and just the overall morale right
now is just still incredible fear for locally, for those
that do live in Massapequa Park, it's, oh my god,
he lived in our neighborhood. The other side of it

(28:34):
is I knew the guy was a weirdo and a creep,
which is why we wouldn't go trigger treating at his house.
The other concern now is everyone finding out that it's
him and taking a look at his property. He's an architect,
why is his house being held up by a two
by four on the front porch. But as the information
is coming out and on things that are being publicly

(28:57):
presented as to money being found downstairs and access to
public records, neighbors are finding out that his house is
in shambles because he's got tax arrears on income tax
on both the federal and the state levels, so he
was harboring money. So there's concerns about just the criminal
activity that not only encompasses the neighborhood itself, but just

(29:20):
the Long Island region in general, and what we don't
know that hasn't been developed already.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
All right, more, I gotta just tell you when I
hear they swabbed leftover pizza Cruss and linked him to
a hare found on a burlap sack with the remains
of a victim, that sounds so unbelievable. That seems like
that's just an episode of a TV show. Tell me,

(29:48):
how do you balance it so that you are respectful
to law enforcement, the pending case and both sides, both families.

Speaker 7 (29:57):
Well, you know, it is sort of a balancing and
I think Carrie and Doctor Joni touched on it a
little bit. That the victims are in this case obviously
the ones that lost their lives or families or ones
set of victims, but you know, you have the survivors
of the of the people that do these crimes, and

(30:20):
their lives are forever uprooted, so you have to be
respectful to them. I've seen post online of people that
are saying, oh, her hairs were found on a belt,
her hair was found on one of the victims. Could
she have been involved? You know, with the most likely
scenario being that you know, his wife's hair was on there.
Because these victims were either in his home or in

(30:43):
his car and it's transferred DNA. So people should tread
lightly when it comes to that end of it. But
as far as the police investigation, you know, I've worked
on you know cases before, you know, the Zodiac case,
the Golden State killer case, where I've talked to investigators
behind the scenes that will you share things and say, look,

(31:06):
we need to get this out there. We want to
help spread the word about this, and they'll give you insights,
but they'll say, listen, you can't disclose this, you can't
disclose that. And sometimes there's some really good nuggets that
you think are interesting, but you know, to protect the
case and not jeopardize the case or your relationship with

(31:26):
these people that are intrusting you, you don't share it.
You don't put it out there. So I think it
is a balancing act for podcasters or any other media, TV, whatever,
to tell a story, but be respectful to everybody involved,
from the police, to the victims, to the survivors.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
Carrie, as you now have become an advocate when you
talk to other families and you reach out specifically when
you reach out to children of perpetrators, how do you
do that? Like how do you maintain your sanity when
this keeps coming up and it kind of you know,

(32:06):
knocks the lid off your own PTSD and all these
memories come back. But yet you have chosen to assist
and to help and to show care and concern for
these other children.

Speaker 5 (32:19):
There's a lot of back end stuff that happens with
a life like mine. You're you're not like I'm an
I'm a victim AVOCA and a trauma advocate and a spokesperson.

Speaker 6 (32:29):
I'm over here living my own trauma.

Speaker 5 (32:33):
I'm back in trauma therapy with a CCTP right now.

Speaker 6 (32:37):
That's just fantastic.

Speaker 5 (32:38):
So a lot of a lot of the day to
day stuff that I'm doing, You're you're, the public doesn't see.

Speaker 6 (32:43):
I'm doing a lot of like backdoor media.

Speaker 5 (32:45):
Work, moving pieces around, like I'm kind of like a
little communication hub with several several journalists, investigative journalists, like hey,
this is going on, like this domestic violence has gone
really bad, and this woman's been gunned down in our house,
and you know, it needs coverage and and so all
I like, I take the Facebook t and my advocate

(33:07):
network and my missing person's networks, and then you know,
I move pieces around where they need to go, and
so that's part of what I do.

Speaker 6 (33:16):
And then when you're.

Speaker 5 (33:17):
Talking about like working with people like me, the reality
is that, like some of us were so high profile
and some of us have been living this forever that
we don't necessarily really lean on each other.

Speaker 6 (33:32):
Some of us don't even really like.

Speaker 5 (33:34):
Work that well together because I don't know, like when
you're all a bunch of like abuse survivors and trauma survivors,
even as great as some of us are like look
like we're doing, we don't always necessarily like mesh together
very well. So, like I am here and I am
open to helping like people like on the high profile

(33:58):
in on the other end, And if I was working
with people like I privately wall those with wall that
relationship off and protect it. So the reality I'm facing
right now is that I'm one person and I'm overloaded
right now with like cold cases and emails, and I'm

(34:18):
trying to work and network and build, like you know,
your zone seven, I need to build my zone seven
to like go tackle the world.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Am in absolutely and I'll tell everybody something else. She
does when she's your friend, like she is mine, she
will check you.

Speaker 8 (34:38):
So in my.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
World I don't always say possibly or accused or allegedly.
I sometimes just say he freaking did it. But she
will sometimes gently and kindly and sweetly say, hey, Mac,
you know he does have children and he isn't time
to do process, so you might want to throw in

(35:03):
he's been accused of something or it's alleged that he's
done something. So every time I get one of those
messages from you, it kind of makes me laugh. But
at the same time, you're right, and we need to
be fair on both sides, and we need to come
with I think love and care and concern for everybody involved.
Because your statement when you said your life is divided

(35:27):
into two sides before and after, that's gut wrench at honey.
I mean, but it's true. But I'm just saying as
a mama here in that it breaks my heart.

Speaker 5 (35:40):
Yeah, but I mean the truth is like, it's been
eighteen years and I was born. Before I was born,
I was a crime victim because my mom was pregnant
with me with the when my dad killed Nancy fox
So on his seventh and so I was a crime
victim before I was born.

Speaker 6 (35:57):
And I mean, you know if you're I say, like,
we can't.

Speaker 5 (36:03):
My friend Laura Kelly, she was a journalist for the
Witchita Eagle and now she does like heavy victims work.
She says, like, we can't heal with things that we
don't talk about, you know, and we can't deal with
things we don't know, right, and so we don't know
these things, and how do we deal in heal with
them and we don't talk about them if we buckle

(36:25):
down and do the Midwest. Oh, we all look fantastic
on the outside with our manicured lawns, and we go
to church in our Sunday finest and we serve the
community and we're a Scout leader. All these things my
father did you know? Then we hide really well, and
we're hiding like our sexual, stadistic, psychopathic, you know, behaviors

(36:47):
that are murdering people. So there's a lot of similarities
there with my data and Rex, and that really just
blew me away. I was cousin something heavy. When I
was reading the Bell documents Friday, I literally cussed on Twitter.
Some high did and make news, but it was not
pretty Friday and Saturday, when I was processing what this

(37:07):
man has potentially done heal and deal and do the
kind of work I do to help people.

Speaker 6 (37:13):
You have to face facts.

Speaker 5 (37:15):
And I'm literally, like right now facing new facts you know,
every day, really like in my own life right now
with my own father. So we're just healing and dealing
over here.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Healing and delon. Lisa, I want to ask you something
with your expertise, I think there's going to be a
lot of people coming forward because this guy, again was
a serial killer full time. It's what he did every day.

(37:48):
And I think he for fun at the grocery store
or the bank, or just walking down the street or
catching a subway, would mess with people, would say things
inappropriate to get a rise of them, to get a
reaction out of them, and I think he was just
playing like cat and mouse. But I do think we're
going to have a ton of people come forward with

(38:08):
real events. But I think there also maybe some people
that might use this to get some attention. So with
your expertise and statement analysis and polygraph how do you
weed out the true reports and the fault reports.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
So right now, from what I've observed your social media
platforms as well as the local news here, that women
are coming forward that he has been on gates with
them previously they were sex workers, and he had been
going on dates to various restaurants throughout Long Island, the

(38:44):
restaurants that I've heard of through these narratives, which of
course I don't have any confirmation as these narratives, but
the details that are being provided by these sex workers
are so specific and accountable four that there really is
a hard time to not believe the narrative that we're

(39:05):
being told. And he's been hanging out on the north
shore of Long Island, one specific location in Port Jefferson,
and I would approximate Port Jefferson from Massive People Park
is probably going to be about a forty forty five
minute drive mostly highway. When it comes down to all
of these people coming forward and whether they're neighbors, whether

(39:25):
they're people that have kicked maybe some of the employees
that kicked him out of Home Whole Foods, because there
apparently there was a situation where he was stealing fruit.
Issues pertaining to neighbors and fighting with them. There was
even a woman that had come forward he had accosted
her in the park even two weeks ago. There is
public knowledge that his wife, who did file for divorce

(39:48):
from him today, which we could definitely talk about. Also,
she was expected to be out of town starting tomorrow
in San Diego, and on the basis of the forensic
evidence that's already been conducted, a lot of the crimes
that he had already been in the process of being
held accountable for was being done when she was traveling.
So there is assumption and or possible thought that the FBI,

(40:12):
as well as the Suffolk County Task Force in conjunction
with the state Troopers and the Parks Police, decided to
apprehend him now because there's a possibility of while he
was under surveillance, these agents and officers saw his negative
behavior and possibly thought that he has the possibility of
acting out again when his wife would be traveling starting tomorrow.

(40:34):
But we can't polygraph everyone the time, and the resources
are just not there right now to go ahead and
do so, So it does come down to again effective interviewing.
I would hope that law enforcement will go ahead and
follow up with these leads because even though they are
not deceased, they still are victims of this perpetrator because

(40:57):
obviously there was intent. I don't know how far the
intentions would be going but they are still going to
be a victim because they still had interaction with him.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
And more if I want to go back to you,
because what Lisa is saying, I think is spot on.
And he was purchasing more minutes for these burner phones,
so clearly it looks like he's gearing up to do
something nefarious. And I also think podcasts can play a
role here again with people maybe coming forward to a

(41:31):
podcaster to say, Hey, this is a safe place for
me to talk about this. You helped me get to
law enforcement, or maybe help me articulate what occurred with me,
or some information that I.

Speaker 7 (41:43):
Know no doubt about it. Some people you don't want
to talk about something, but they don't necessarily want to
share their face on the news. Podcast could be a
good outlet for that. You know, it's a good way
to talk about a case.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
You know.

Speaker 7 (41:58):
I covered the Golden State killer case extensively, and I
talked to several victims of Joseph DeAngelo's who recounted the
horrible things that had happened to them, But at the
same time, they didn't want their faces or their names used.
So it is an outlet to sort of dive into
some of that stuff without you know, exposing yourself to

(42:22):
unwanted attention that you might receive or people knowing who
you were if you want to keep yourself private. But
you know you mentioned talking on a podcast. I think
I posted a reply to you on Facebook. I know
someone through the podcast industry here that has a family
member who was friends with this guy the suspects, and

(42:49):
he was blown away. His mind was just blown away
when he found out this guy was arrested. He had
no clue this guy was like this. And I actually
invited him on the podcast because obviously I and a
million other people want learning the details we can about
this this individual. And you know, he told me a
couple of things, but in the end he didn't feel

(43:09):
comfortable coming on the podcast to talk about it, so
you know, I sort of have to respect that and
not bring him on.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
But you still got intel even if he gave you
just a couple of statements. You know something about this
person that perhaps law enforcement doesn't. And again I tell
people all the time, the media is one of the
best tools that law enforcement has if they know how
to utilize it. There are people that will not talk

(43:38):
to police, that will talk to a reporter or a podcaster,
And I think it is critical that we even let
the people that are listening to this, you know, session,
this episode, whatever you want to call it, You are
free to contact anybody on this panel. Anybody on this panel,

(43:59):
I guarantee you will help you, whether it's this case
or another case. They will help you navigate where you
need to get your information to and they can keep
you anonymous and help you period.

Speaker 4 (44:12):
Joe mentioned earlier about sometimes trinkets and or trophies, and
you and I had discussed offline a conversation regarding this,
and we keep talking about information and the type of
person that this individual is pertaining to the profile that
not only law enforcement has on him, but the profile

(44:34):
that the media is making, plus the profile of individuals
observing this case from the outside. So there's a lot
of characteristics and a lot of traits that sometimes are overlapping.
But again, public perception and opinion do play into it
sometimes when an individual develops their own thought process. And

(44:54):
one thing that's sticking with me is the concept of
trophies and on the basis of the information being seen
and what I'm personally taking in, not only as an expert,
but a resident of the area of where this has
all been occurring. And what I've been following for the

(45:17):
past couple of years is that I don't think and
again this is my opinion that law enforcement, with all
of these diggings, with going through the house, while looking
at his properties in Las Vegas, locking at his properties
in Massachusetts and South Carolina, because again this is now
becoming a multi jurisdictional investigation, that I don't think that

(45:39):
there's going to be trophies. I think what he's taking
away from it would be referred to as metaphysical trophies,
and this ties into the cell phone forensics that we're done.
And what I mean by metaphysical is that he's an
intelligent individual. He's smart, conversational, personable. From what other people

(46:05):
have said throughout the interviews that do know him personally,
I mean apparently his property manager in Brooklyn that knew
him for thirty years referred to him as a gem
to deal with and highly knowledgeable and he was a
big goofy guy, but a little bit on the nerdy side.
So public perception is there, obviously on the basis of
interpersonal relationships. But what I think he's taking away from

(46:27):
the victims that are associated with him are those burner
phone calls to family members in the back end, I
think that he's not collecting or had collected trinkets and
or trophies. I think what he has taken away is
the fact that he made those phone calls to family members,
and that's his trophy. He took the power away from

(46:52):
the family. So the family members now can identify his
voice as the individual that took the life life of
their family member. And so I think there's a very
big psychology component to that. Obviously higher order thinking showing
the fact that he is as knowledgeable and as smart
as he is, and that, to me is probably the

(47:13):
scariest part of what could be this investigation, the fact
that he not only allegedly, and I'm going to use
the word allegedly, despite all the evidence against him, committed
these crimes, but then he went ahead and continued to
revictimize the families on a psychological warfare component.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
I have never heard the term metaphysical trophy. Now you
have got me fixed on that, and I understand completely
because when the sister of one of the victims says
he knew my name, he called me and stated my name,
and he's just psychologically messing with her.

Speaker 4 (48:00):
Yeah, he's just continuing in his mind to further be
the offender that he is, but not only offend against
the victim, but further victimize the family with this psychological
torture and social emotional abuse by knowing the research that

(48:21):
he had already done on them, which is discoverable obviously
through the forensics that was done on the computers as
well as cell phones where his Google search history is
looking into the victims as well as their family members
also some of the other kids that are in the family.
So he really has taken it to such a degree
and so far off the spectrum per se where he's

(48:44):
looking to go ahead and continuously intentionally harm the family,
which is why I think my again my opinion, but
I believe that that's part of the that's his trophy,
that's what he's further taking away.

Speaker 7 (48:57):
And we've seen this in cases before. DiAngelo did the
same thing. He'd call his victims up twenty years after
he attack them, just to terrorize them again. So there's
definitely a history of killers doing this, reliving that moment,
getting a thrill again and terrorizing victims family members of victims.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
It's awful more if you're absolutely right, and Carrie, I
want to ask you a question. I know that you
and I have talked privately, and there are sometimes people,
just general public people that will right your father, and
if he responds to them, they want to contact you
and tell you about it, And so to me, that's

(49:38):
another twisted way that he's trying to get to you.

Speaker 5 (49:42):
Yeah, so I had to legally cut him off a
couple of years ago. Well, so my father's a sexual
statistic psychopath and a pathological liar and a narcissist, and
I have a feeling Rex based on what we know
is right up in that same categories as my father,
very very similar critter creature here. You know, I tried

(50:03):
really hard for years only through letters, and there were
gaps where I couldn't handle it. And I tried. But
then when I started becoming public and speaking up in
the news and was writing a book and stuff, my
dad wanted a piece of that pie, and that narcissism
came back in and I just I would we could
get through for just a tiny bit, like he said,
I understood, you know, I had caused my family to

(50:26):
be victims, and then all of a sudden, it was
like he he wanted control again. My father is a
very controlling individual, down to like a pencil or what.
He had to go to the bathroom from twelve to
twelve fifteen when he came home for lunch at noon
every day. So heaven help you if you need to
go to the bathroom, because we had one bathroom and
three bedroom ranch like live with BTK and like fourteen

(50:49):
square hundred feet, Like.

Speaker 6 (50:50):
Yeah, that's fun.

Speaker 5 (50:52):
So like the reality is with somebody that controlling and narcissistic,
even when they're locked away in solitary, there's are going
to be running their show. And so he called it
his cave and his El Canara, his el Cavera. And
then he has he's the Kansas Pisces. So he's even
taken on new identities now that he's in prison. And

(51:13):
then he has like major league fans and minor league fans,
and then he has people that take advantage of him
that sell.

Speaker 6 (51:20):
Like his letters and his art. He calls them vipers.

Speaker 5 (51:25):
And then I call like people that contact him and
then contact me. I call them his minions and his
flying monkeys. I'm managing all of this insanity on a
daily basis. These people hit my social media and they
email me. The worst ones text me like they wait until,
say they listen to this podcast or if I was

(51:45):
live on YouTube or something.

Speaker 6 (51:47):
They'll wait till I'm all nice.

Speaker 5 (51:48):
And rattled and profiling with like, you know, like brilliant people,
and then they'll wait until I log off, and then
they'll text me something horrible just to rattle.

Speaker 6 (51:59):
Me before I go to bed.

Speaker 5 (52:01):
The question right now is are these people doing this
on behalf of my father's and like, is my father
getting off on it or is it people just bad
people kind of taking advantage of my dad or enjoying like.

Speaker 6 (52:14):
Getting off on like his daughter. That's a big question.

Speaker 5 (52:19):
The reality, unfortunately, is that it never ends. I basically
call myself and the other high profile families like a living, walking, breathing,
never ending crime story.

Speaker 6 (52:31):
Unfortunately, it never ends, y'all.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Here's what I want to do before we sign off.
Any of you have a last thing you want to say,
a SoundBite or a point or a quote, anything you
want to say that we haven't touched on. Now's your chance,
and I'll just start with Lisa.

Speaker 6 (52:48):
If you have something.

Speaker 8 (52:50):
The last thing that I would want to convey to
the listeners of this episode is that there out there
again in the media.

Speaker 4 (53:03):
We need as experts, in addition to viewers of this case,
we need to focus on the facts just because there
are theories, just because there are so many different moving
parts right now. We need to not only focus on
the three victims that he's allegedly being accountable for, but

(53:24):
we also cannot forget that there are other victims. We
have to stick to the facts of what's being there.
And there is no problem with going down the rabbit
hole and being vested and interested in a case from
a learning perspective, But the facts are the facts. DNA's
DNA science is science. There are more than qualified individuals

(53:46):
that are handling this case on the federal, state, and
local levels, and we need to trust them to do
their job efficiently and accurately, because the last thing anyone
needs is an investigation like this being rushed and possibly
someone getting away and not being held accountable for their actions.

Speaker 7 (54:06):
Yeah, I would just say to try and be patient.
I know it's human nature to want to know everything
all at once and have all the answers, and the
truth is it's going to take time to sort through this,
you know, I hope if that if there are more
victims that can be attributed to this guy, I hope
that can be determined because at the end of the day,

(54:27):
there's a lot of victims families waiting to hear what's
going to happen. And I think, you know, especially if
there's people talking online on social media, on you know,
the citizen detectives out there that are sort of working
this case and looking at other cases talking about it online. Remember,
there's there's people lives that stake here. You know, a

(54:49):
lot of these people are survivors or victims who lost
someone and then again in this suspects case, his family
has just had their lives imploded. So you just be
patient and be respectful.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
Just I guess reiterate what Lisa and Mike have already said.
But I guess the other thing I would say is
just remembering that these were young women and they might
have been escorts for a period of time in their lives,
but they're not just quote sex workers. Every person who
was a victim of this person, if again he has

(55:24):
found guilty, have a life story, and that life story
ended up very tragically I just think it's important to
think about the fact that, you know, to the families
and the friends of these young women, they weren't, you know,
just sex workers. And so I think and I've been
very happy that I haven't heard a lot of talk
about that. And there's no question that engaging in certain

(55:44):
behaviors that are illegal can put people at higher risk.
But I just want to, I think, just reiterate that
that you know, what we are much more than what
we do or what we've done at a certain point
in our lives, and it's important to keep that in perspective.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
For the victims and the families out there that are
still waiting for justice, and not just for this case,
but for any cold case out there. Just remember that
there are men and women working hard on these who
live by the model never give up, and there are
people working on these cases diligently, and unfortunately sometimes this
takes a long time, but we can see the fruits
of their work and see exactly what their role is

(56:21):
and how they're going to go forward and try to
help bring that closure to families.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Carrie, I'm gonna give you the final final word, oh Lord,
no pressure, but it's got to be brilliant.

Speaker 5 (56:36):
I just want I just want to appreciate, thank you
all for being in my life and letting me come
in and out and be a trauma victim and survivor
and advocate and teaching me all the Zone seven ropes.
I think, what you know, my colleagues here are saying
is like, we got to be patient. There's a lot
more coming, I'm expecting. I always say things seem to

(56:59):
be like, you know, it's going to get worse before
it gets better, and a lot of aspects here. I'm
really glad that we caught the scritter.

Speaker 6 (57:08):
That's amazing.

Speaker 5 (57:09):
I'm hopeful for these families that will keep clearing these cases.

Speaker 6 (57:13):
There's really nothing better than that.

Speaker 5 (57:16):
I mean, it doesn't change things, that doesn't bring anybody back,
but being able to clear these cases is huge. And
then we just got to be patient, like you know
people are saying. And also we just need to remember
Rex's family and keep them in mind and remember to
respect them as a victim family because that's that's what

(57:36):
they are at this point, That's what law enforcement's telling us.
And seek out the good, the good, the good, you know,
the good people that are trying to stay above the
bar and being factual and.

Speaker 6 (57:49):
I don't know, just like just stick with it and and.

Speaker 5 (57:54):
Be productive and useful, you know, like we were talking about,
like go figure out out some cold cases, or contact
any of us if you have something, and we'll route
it around. We all can keep working together and keep
that tide moving here.

Speaker 6 (58:10):
We just got to do it together.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Seek out the good. I love that, and you know
I tell my own children, love wins. This was one
evil person, but I can literally tell you there are
hundreds of people trying to do something about it. So
love wins. There's more good people than bad. I want
to thank y'all again for being here with me, not

(58:33):
just on this episode, but in my career and in
my personal life. So I'm going to end Zone seven
the way that I always do with a quote. Crime
must be evaluated in its totality. There is no substitute
for experience. And if you want to understand the criminal mind,
you must go directly to the source and learn to

(58:56):
decipher what he tells you. And above all, why plus
how equals who? John Douglas mind Hunner. I'm Cheryl McCollum,
and this is one seven

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Host

Sheryl McCollum

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}LISK (Long Island Serial Killer) Panel: A Zone 7 Discussion