February 1, 2023 • 26 mins
18-year-old Brittany Phillips is last seen on September 27, 2004. Just before 10 p.m., she dropped the friend off at home and then drove to her own apartment on 65th Street. The following day, Tulsa Police find Brittany raped and murdered in her Tulsa apartment. In 2019, DNA led to a possible suspect. That person was cleared.
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, brings Dr. Maggie Zingman, the mother of Brittany Phillips back onto Zone 7. They discuss the latest evidence discovery in Brittany’s case - a letter mailed after Brittany’s tentative death timeline. This changes the timeline of the case and gives even more reason to reinterview friends and suspects, re analyze all evidence and dna in Brittany’s unsolved murder.
ANYONE with ANY information about the murder of Brittany Phillips murder or latest evidence contact the Tulsa Police Department Homicide Unit at 918-596-9135
Show Notes:
- [0:00] Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum. Sheryl speaks of new evidence in Brittany’s case
- [0:15] Caravan to Catch the Killer: Dr. Maggie Zingman’s Devotion to her Daughter
- [4:03] Sheryl welcomes Dr. Maggie Zingman, the mother of Brittany to Zone 7 back to Zone 7 to speak on behalf of the new evidence discovered
- [11:00] “If I mailed something for someone, and she was murdered four days later or three days later. I'm sure as hell gonna remember it.”
- [15:14] Sheryl breaks down Brittany’s autopsy report
- [19:57] Reasons the case needs a completely new start
- [20:29] Letter leads to a new timeline in Brittany’s murder
- [20:48] If you have any information about the letter that is new evidence in Brittanys unsolved case, please contact the Tulsa Police Department Homicide Unit at 918-596-9135
- [25:04] “Do not give up. Leave no stone unturned. Look for signs of loved ones, but don't look hard. They'll show up when you're not expecting it.” -S.L
- [25:34] Next week on Zone 7 Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum will talk with Clay Bryant
- [26:06] Thanks for listening to another episode! If you love the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to Itunes and leave a rating and review! How to Leave an Apple Podcast Review: First, Open the podcast app on your iPhone, Mac, or iPad. Then, hit the “Search” tab at the bottom right-hand corner of the page and search for Zone 7. Select the podcast, and scroll down to find the subheading “Ratings & Reviews”. and select “Write a Review.” Next, select the number of stars you’d like to leave. Please choose 5 stars! Using the text box which says “Title,” write a title for your review. Then in the text box, write the review itself. The review can be up to 300 words long, but doesn’t need to be much more than: “Love the show! Thanks!” or Once you’re done select “Send” in the upper right-hand corner.
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Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award-winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a collaboration between universities and colleges that brings researchers, practitioners, students and the criminal justice community together to advance techniques in solving cold cases and assist families and law enforcement with solvability factors fo
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We recorded with Dr Maggie Zingingman in early January, and
from that short amount of time from when we recorded
to the release date of her episode, some developments have occurred.
Maggie came across some new key information that I believe
(00:21):
needs to not only be discussed here, I think it
needs to be added to our existing knowledge of this
case for Brittany. It might go to time of death,
It might add a potential witness, It definitely adds a
place of interest. This additional information has got a specific location,
(00:45):
a specific day, and a specific time frame. Some people
may say, well, she shouldn't be talking about it, she
should wait. It might hurt the case. I don't know
how it would hurt the case to bring this out.
Because it is bringing it out, we're gonna be able
to find out if somebody did a favor or ran
(01:06):
an errand for Brittany. This particular piece of evidence is
critical to put in the public to plead for somebody
to come forward. One thing that I know I inherited
(01:27):
from my mama is I love tom capsules, messages and
bottles and these letters that are sometimes lost for long
periods of time and then delivered. I remember there was
a letter that was written by a young soldier in
like nineteen forty five that was delivered to his with
(01:51):
a and it had been lost all that time. I
think it was a letter that he wrote to his mom,
and somehow the postal service came up with it. And
of course his mama was long gone. He was also deceased,
so his wife's who they delivered it to. And I
(02:13):
just love stories like that. Cold cases are a lot
like a time capsule. Everything stops when a crime happens.
The victim doesn't get any older, they don't go back
to work, they don't go back to school, they don't
contact family ever again. That foul is encased and preserved
(02:35):
and locked away, and sometimes it didn't open for years
or decades. And just like the long lost love letter
that gets delivered fifty years later, we have a letter
that was either mailed by Brittany or somebody mailed it
on her behalf. We've just learned about it, but we
(02:58):
know that changes the timeline. It adds a place, that
specific post office, It adds a person again, either Brittany
herself or somebody for her. Maggie has held this in
her hand like a time capsule. She's read it. She
(03:19):
stared at Brittney's handwriting. The memories have come flooding back
to her and the questions where did she get this envelope?
When did she write it? Where was she when she
wrote it, who mailed it? When did they mail it?
But it's put into play now tonight we have news
(03:40):
that has just kind of blown my mind. I'm bringing
back Dr Maggie Zengman to talk about some evidence that
was just discovered that has busted this timeline wide open
and given us, in my opinion, not just a piece
(04:00):
of evidence, but a critical time stamp in real time
of when Brittany may have been alive. Maggie, welcome back
to his own seven. What in the world has been discovered?
I don't even know where to start, but leave it
(04:21):
to say, about four days ago, my ex husband, who
I really have not talked much since Britty's murder, called
me and he said, I need to send your picture
of something, and he sent a picture of an envelope
and he said, look at the time stamp. What he
told me was that he had received, like he did
(04:46):
every year, a letter from my daughter asking him to
forward a birthday card for her grandfather, his father, and
every year she would do that no matter where she was, Florida, Tulsa.
And he said, so she sent it to me and
I got it a week after she died. That's sort
(05:08):
of earth shattering enough. But he said, look at the
time stamp. The time stamp said, it's said September twenty night,
which theoretically we've always been told that she was killed
sometimes September through the morning of. So you talk about
(05:31):
a letter from the past, This letter from the past
could be telling us so many things. I mean, I
got him to send it to me, and he fed
ex it to me a day later, so I did
have it in my possession. I know when you sent
it to me, it leaped off the page to me.
(05:51):
Somebody went into a post office or went to a
kiosk and got a stamp printed. It's not like a
post stamp, and then later it's postmarked. This is one
of those stamps that has but they call it a
cancelation and and they have a meat a meter mark.
And when he first told me, I thought, oh, she
probably got ahead of stamp, and she probably put it
(06:14):
into her post office, I mean her apartment mailbox and
so it didn't get picked up to a day later.
So I expected to just see, you know, a stick
and peel stamp, But this is a mechanized stamp. It's
a mechanized stamp that has the amount that it costs.
It's printed out and then the postmaster or if you
(06:37):
bought it at a kiosk, it is then it's already printed.
You just stick it on the envelope. And not only
was the date September twenty nine that I think of
like three pm I forget, but the cancelation where you
buy it at a kiosk, you put it through the
(06:57):
slot after you put the stamp on the cancel a
and was the same day also correct? And you talked
to her on yes? Yeah, like I said, you know,
I talked to her that night because she was really
upset and having some medical issues, and I told her
we get it all, um put together. And you know
(07:17):
I called her on the mean on the six that
was sorry, I'm erase that um but um, yes, I
talked her on the and then I tried to call
her on the but per their timeline, she was already dead.
And I wasn't surprised that she didn't call me back
(07:39):
because she rarely called me back on Tuesdays and Wednesdays
because she had a late school so was Tuesday, but
the twenty nine was Wednesday. This whole thing. So what
I was trying to say earlier is it even has
a QR code on it, so some of these numbers
that are on it, you know, we can find out
(08:00):
the exact location. But y'all, this is so new to us.
We're still in the process of trying to do our investigation.
Owned the envelope and owned the stamp. We're not even
there yet. We're working on it. We've got some really
good people on it. We even have a postmaster helping.
But right now we don't know if it was inside
(08:22):
a post office or at a kiosk. We just know
it wasn't like she had a stamp in her drawer
put it on there and went to a postbox and
dropped it. She had to go in somewhere to get
this printed off to put on there. And charl you know,
it's not like we're not looking at the other options.
Because you know the multiple conversation you and I and
(08:45):
the rest of the group have had, you know, one
of the things was, well, you know, Britty was busy,
she wasn't feeling good, so maybe she gave it to
a friend to mail, and so I took it upon
myself even before I gave it to the Tulsa police.
Two talked to the five people that I knew who
were closest to her. Her best friend, the young girl
(09:08):
that she went to school with and who came upon
her apartment, the young lady that she stayed with when
she first came back from Eckard College in Florida, and
her brother who saw her that night at school. And
then another friend, a friend who she visited in Texas
that for various reasons, we were looking at some of
(09:29):
the people that that friend knew. So those were the
five people who had the closest contact with them, And
I asked them, do you remember mailing a letter for
Britty right around the time she was murdered? And they
all said, no, that's five people the closest people to her.
(09:50):
That doesn't mean there's not other people, but there's a
problem in how to find those other people. Well, here's
my problem with that. If somebody is close enough to
you that they say, hey, can you mail this for me,
which is kind of like a little mundane type of air,
and sure I can do that. And then days later,
if not hours later, you find out they've been murdered.
(10:13):
You are never going to forget you ran that errand
for them, that would be so etched in your memory
that the last time I saw her, she gave me
a letter to mail to her dad. And then I
get a phone call from a friend, or a fellow student,
or a co worker or a neighbor, somebody that tells
(10:34):
me she's not just dead, but murdered. I can't believe
that person hasn't come forward, well, you know, them coming
forward again. So many of her friends were young and naive,
so I sort of can understand that, but yeah, I
would have. But what I don't agree with is that
some people are saying, who's going to remember mailing something
(10:57):
eighteen years ago? And like you just said, if I
mailed something for someone and she was murdered four days later,
three days later, I'm sure it's all going to remember it.
Every single student that knew those four students in Moscow,
Idaho are never gonna forget where they were when they
(11:18):
found out exactly. There is no way anybody would forget
doing the last favor of that child ever asked somebody
to do. And my point is, especially now, this whole
time they were saying, well, she could have been killed
on the or or the twenty nine, I'm shocked that
(11:39):
person didn't come forward and say, well, it couldn't have
been on the because she gave me a letter on
to mail if it was a friend, absolutely right, So
we have it could have been a friend or it
could have been her. So if she mailed that letter
earlier in the day, went and got something in home
(12:01):
and there was somebody either bum rushed in waiting for
knocked on the door, she thought she had a delivery
and show open the door. Somehow they gained the entry
without forcing their way in, and then she was murdered.
But this changes the entire timeline, And a timeline is
(12:22):
investigation one oh one. You need to know exactly what happened,
exactly when it happened, so that you can get you know,
your suspect pool reduced because if somebody gives you an
alibi for the and you clear them, but then you
find out she might not have been killed on the
(12:44):
Now we have a whole new gotta star from ground
zero because the timeline has just changed because we got
a US posts stamp with a data sale of oh
nine four that we cannot ignore. Tell them what else
you got? So where do you want me to start?
I mean, this is one of those things, honestly. I mean, well, Maggie,
(13:06):
I sit here and I'm thinking all of these years
two thousand five, two thousand seven, two thousand twelve, two
thousand twenty, I mean all these years that you're waiting.
I mean, I'm waiting and waiting. And then you know,
we had this DNA and the DNA was compared to
hundreds hundreds of suspects. Jeff Felton was endless and trying
(13:27):
to figure them out. And then in two thousand nineteen, C. C.
Moore with Paramon not only draws a phenotype picture, but finally,
after a year of searching all the genealogy charts and everything,
makes a direct hit to a person that they interview.
But they say he's not our killer. That's when they
(13:50):
should have gone back to ground zero, you know, and
gone back over the autopsy and gone back over the
evidence and stuff. But was pick and choose, and I've
keep sending them tips all the time and stuff, and
so but I was hesitant when I got this because
I thought, once again, I'm going to give them something
(14:11):
that could mean something, could mean nothing. But I'm really
afraid of what they might want to do or what
they won't do. Rather, here's the bottom line. They can't
clear people based on alibi on They have to factor
this letter in period. They took the evidence from me. Yes,
(14:34):
they didn't ask me for the list of the five
people that I've checked with, as I've checked with my ex.
They haven't contacted him about it yet, and they told
me that they didn't think it was going to mean anything.
One person in particular told me that he didn't think
(14:56):
anybody could remember mailing anything at eighteen years But they
were going to take it and look at it and stuff.
But they didn't have time to sit and listen to
the people I've talked to or listened to my other
concerns about a meat. Okay, well you recently got the
autopsy report, so let's just jump in this thing. So
(15:18):
now you have a letter mark nine. According to the
autopsy report, she had food in her stomach. They list
very clearly. It resembles brown meat, a tomato, and green vegetable.
If you still have food in your stomach. That's usually
four to six hours. So that timeline is going to
(15:41):
get narrated even more now. So if we go off
the assumption theory one she mailed the letter, got something
to eat, and then was murdered within four hours, we
might have a real tight window now compared to three days.
It's not gonna be three days anymore, It's not with
(16:01):
this case. I I really don't know what to believe anymore,
you know, But all these things are just strange. You know,
I had seen autopsy years and years ago, but of
course I had no concerns back in two thousand nine,
two thousand and ten, you know, I mean, because everything
was being looked at um. But you know this, and
it just doesn't seem like to me. And again I'm
(16:24):
still naive. I don't know everything, but I've been learning
a lot over eight ten years. It doesn't seem like
certain evidence that I was told was done and taken,
like swabs and different things. It's not listed in that
autopsy report. It is not listed. Maybe they didn't send
me the full one. I don't know, maybe, but it
(16:45):
is odd. There should be a list of things that
were done the evidence should be listed. Clearly, there was
something found under her fingernails. We swabbed her mouth, we
swabbed her vaginal area. That should be in there. And
here's the thing that when you look at the time
of death, the time of death is not listed. When
(17:05):
you're walking through a homicide scene, you know that death
occurs in stages. So dying is a process. So one
of the first things you want to look for or
you know, is there any bugs, Is there any rigor mortists?
Is there any color? What are the eyes look like?
What's the temperature like? All of these things should happen
(17:28):
to tell you where this body is in this process.
This autopsy is very clear to me. They say there's
no rigor mortis in the jaw. They say that rigor
is mild. So now you're talking four to two hours.
So if you've got mild rigor mortis on top of
food in her stomach, Maggie, this changes this timeline to
(17:52):
such a massive degree that it needs to be ground zero.
You start over today based on what you know. Now,
let's put the word out. Was there somebody else that
did a favor for her? Was a neighbor going to
the grocery store in the post office and did you
(18:13):
know Brittany just say hey, can you mail this for me?
And they've never even talked to that person, but maybe
they'll hear your plea to say, wait a minute. I
did that. I didn't think it was anything. The issue
is that when I was talking, I said, well, you know, here,
I've got four or five people who were closest friends.
They said they didn't mail it. I can give you
(18:34):
those names. He goes, you know, we'll get that later.
But then I said, you know, but I'd really like
to send this to media because that's a way to
really rule out real quickly. Did somebody mail the letter
for her? And words were, you can't do that. That
would ruin the case. That would hurt the case. If
you share that, you can't tell me it's not worth anything.
(18:58):
And at the same time tell me, well, you're going
to ruin the case. I know certain evidence was taken
because I was told that early on by both then
head of homicide and by the then detective. I know
they were given the timeline by the m E. They
didn't just make it up out there their minds. So
(19:18):
that's why I find it so odd that it's not
written on the autopsy. I think it's unusual when they
say there's no injuries to this part of her body
or that part of her body. I think it's odd
that the evidence isn't listed. I think it's odd that
there's nothing notated of what they sent to the state
crime Lab. And again is did they send me the
(19:40):
whole record? I mean, it seemed like it was pretty complete,
but I don't know. I guess it read as though
it was complete, but there was some things I would
certainly like to have seen on there. But here's the thing,
in my professional opinion, the timeline has changed, so some
(20:03):
of these folks that they have cleared, I believe they
need to speak to again just to get clarification. Is
there a possibility she was alive on Is there a
possibility she mailed that letter herself? We have to know that. Now.
I've been sending emails and requests saying, you know, so,
(20:26):
what are you going to be doing with the card?
You know? Are we gonna look at the timeline? You know,
I've not got in any response. It's certainly something we're
going to do. So we're gonna pinpoint where this was
mailed from. Was it a post office or a kiosk.
We're putting the word out. Does anybody have any information
(20:50):
of how this got mailed? Did Brittany ask somebody to
mail it? Did she ask you a week before to
mail it and it was in your car and then
you saw it in the visor and decided to mail it.
I've done that myself. If I put something in the
sun visor, I may not see it for a couple
of days. So again, you can help us with this timeline.
(21:11):
If nobody comes forward, then we have to stay that
it must have been Brittany that mailed it. It's just
every time I think this case can't get more mixed up,
it does, you know. And it both gives me hope,
you know, and I'm finding myself, you know, and having
this anticipation and that at the same time I'm so
(21:32):
concerned that it's still not going to answer anything. I Mean,
this really seems like maybe we've finally found one of
the reasons there's such a block in this case. Well,
here's what I believe. I believe there is DNA. I
believe something is going to come from that from some
of the testing that we believe, prayerfully is being done
(21:55):
that you have asked repeatedly to get done. I think
some answers are coming. But I believe this is such
a message in a bottle type moment. I know. I mean,
it's it's like, you know, I often, I don't know
what I believe in, you know, but it's often I
often that's pretty, you know. I just say please, please,
(22:17):
to somehow affect, you know, something, to turn up or
to lead us somewhere. So maybe, Mama, I don't know
what more she could have done. I know, I know. Well,
it's like you know when people say, oh, the Lord
works in mysterious ways, does he? Because this is in
your face, Brittany could not have done more to say,
(22:41):
all right, mama, you wanted me to give you a clue.
Here it is from my own handwriting to my own daddy,
and he sent it to you, somebody you don't even
talk to. He reaches out to you because he finds this,
and he notices the post stamp, and I mean, game on,
I mean that to me, it's powerful. Well yeah, and
(23:02):
then inside the card are worth these words of because
it was a birthday card to her grandfather for her
dad to give to him. And she went, you know,
I love your granddad. I'm sorry this is late. You know,
It's sort of to me, was sort of saying, you know,
I'm sorry, I won't see you again type of thing.
(23:23):
But but you know what it says to me that
she was even more in a hurry to mail it.
She already knew it was late, so she wanted it
to get to the post office. Well, I think a
lot of good evidence has come out with that. Just surprised.
I think they're gonna look at this and say, Okay,
we gotta make sure that we're gonna look at this
(23:45):
timeline one more time. We're gonna make sure that these
alibis line up now with this new possible significant lead.
And I think that whether it's state lab or a
private lab, I think we're gonna have some answers real soon.
(24:05):
And Maggie, I mean, you are a warrior. And I
know you're sitting right now in a hotel room by yourself,
and you're trying to process all this and you're doing
the best you know with it. But I admire you,
and I am telling you in my gut this is
such a sign from your child that I ain't gonna
(24:26):
ignore it. I'm not going to either let's help law
enforcement by spreading the word to encourage witnesses to come forward.
The phone number for the tults of p D it's
night five nine six nine one three five. So I'm
(24:51):
gonna end Zone seven like I always do with a
quote from somebody from my Zone seven, and tonight it
comes from is in Leaving the Mama of Sean Gelieving,
Do not give up, leave no stone unturned. Look for
signs of loved ones, but don't look hard. They'll show
(25:15):
up when you're not expecting it. I'm Cheryl McCollum and
this is on seven. Y'all better buckle up for next week.
(25:37):
Not only are you gonna hear from one of my
friends from my Zone seven, but he is also one
of my mentors. He is a living legend in the
law enforcement world. Clay Bryant will make you think he
came right off the pages of To Kill a mocking Bird.
(25:58):
He is a law man with the heart of gold
and enough horse sense to capture professional criminals all by himself.
We recorded with Dr Maggie Zingingman in early January, and
from that short amount of time from when we recorded
to the release date of her episode, some developments have occurred.
Maggie came across some new key information that I believe
(00:21):
needs to not only be discussed here, I think it
needs to be added to our existing knowledge of this
case for Brittany. It might go to time of death,
It might add a potential witness, It definitely adds a
place of interest. This additional information has got a specific location,
(00:45):
a specific day, and a specific time frame. Some people
may say, well, she shouldn't be talking about it, she
should wait. It might hurt the case. I don't know
how it would hurt the case to bring this out.
Because it is bringing it out, we're gonna be able
to find out if somebody did a favor or ran
(01:06):
an errand for Brittany. This particular piece of evidence is
critical to put in the public to plead for somebody
to come forward. One thing that I know I inherited
(01:27):
from my mama is I love tom capsules, messages and
bottles and these letters that are sometimes lost for long
periods of time and then delivered. I remember there was
a letter that was written by a young soldier in
like nineteen forty five that was delivered to his with
(01:51):
a and it had been lost all that time. I
think it was a letter that he wrote to his mom,
and somehow the postal service came up with it. And
of course his mama was long gone. He was also deceased,
so his wife's who they delivered it to. And I
(02:13):
just love stories like that. Cold cases are a lot
like a time capsule. Everything stops when a crime happens.
The victim doesn't get any older, they don't go back
to work, they don't go back to school, they don't
contact family ever again. That foul is encased and preserved
(02:35):
and locked away, and sometimes it didn't open for years
or decades. And just like the long lost love letter
that gets delivered fifty years later, we have a letter
that was either mailed by Brittany or somebody mailed it
on her behalf. We've just learned about it, but we
(02:58):
know that changes the timeline. It adds a place, that
specific post office, It adds a person again, either Brittany
herself or somebody for her. Maggie has held this in
her hand like a time capsule. She's read it. She
(03:19):
stared at Brittney's handwriting. The memories have come flooding back
to her and the questions where did she get this envelope?
When did she write it? Where was she when she
wrote it, who mailed it? When did they mail it?
But it's put into play now tonight we have news
(03:40):
that has just kind of blown my mind. I'm bringing
back Dr Maggie Zengman to talk about some evidence that
was just discovered that has busted this timeline wide open
and given us, in my opinion, not just a piece
(04:00):
of evidence, but a critical time stamp in real time
of when Brittany may have been alive. Maggie, welcome back
to his own seven. What in the world has been discovered?
I don't even know where to start, but leave it
(04:21):
to say, about four days ago, my ex husband, who
I really have not talked much since Britty's murder, called
me and he said, I need to send your picture
of something, and he sent a picture of an envelope
and he said, look at the time stamp. What he
told me was that he had received, like he did
(04:46):
every year, a letter from my daughter asking him to
forward a birthday card for her grandfather, his father, and
every year she would do that no matter where she was, Florida, Tulsa.
And he said, so she sent it to me and
I got it a week after she died. That's sort
(05:08):
of earth shattering enough. But he said, look at the
time stamp. The time stamp said, it's said September twenty night,
which theoretically we've always been told that she was killed
sometimes September through the morning of. So you talk about
(05:31):
a letter from the past, This letter from the past
could be telling us so many things. I mean, I
got him to send it to me, and he fed
ex it to me a day later, so I did
have it in my possession. I know when you sent
it to me, it leaped off the page to me.
(05:51):
Somebody went into a post office or went to a
kiosk and got a stamp printed. It's not like a
post stamp, and then later it's postmarked. This is one
of those stamps that has but they call it a
cancelation and and they have a meat a meter mark.
And when he first told me, I thought, oh, she
probably got ahead of stamp, and she probably put it
(06:14):
into her post office, I mean her apartment mailbox and
so it didn't get picked up to a day later.
So I expected to just see, you know, a stick
and peel stamp, But this is a mechanized stamp. It's
a mechanized stamp that has the amount that it costs.
It's printed out and then the postmaster or if you
(06:37):
bought it at a kiosk, it is then it's already printed.
You just stick it on the envelope. And not only
was the date September twenty nine that I think of
like three pm I forget, but the cancelation where you
buy it at a kiosk, you put it through the
(06:57):
slot after you put the stamp on the cancel a
and was the same day also correct? And you talked
to her on yes? Yeah, like I said, you know,
I talked to her that night because she was really
upset and having some medical issues, and I told her
we get it all, um put together. And you know
(07:17):
I called her on the mean on the six that
was sorry, I'm erase that um but um, yes, I
talked her on the and then I tried to call
her on the but per their timeline, she was already dead.
And I wasn't surprised that she didn't call me back
(07:39):
because she rarely called me back on Tuesdays and Wednesdays
because she had a late school so was Tuesday, but
the twenty nine was Wednesday. This whole thing. So what
I was trying to say earlier is it even has
a QR code on it, so some of these numbers
that are on it, you know, we can find out
(08:00):
the exact location. But y'all, this is so new to us.
We're still in the process of trying to do our investigation.
Owned the envelope and owned the stamp. We're not even
there yet. We're working on it. We've got some really
good people on it. We even have a postmaster helping.
But right now we don't know if it was inside
(08:22):
a post office or at a kiosk. We just know
it wasn't like she had a stamp in her drawer
put it on there and went to a postbox and
dropped it. She had to go in somewhere to get
this printed off to put on there. And charl you know,
it's not like we're not looking at the other options.
Because you know the multiple conversation you and I and
(08:45):
the rest of the group have had, you know, one
of the things was, well, you know, Britty was busy,
she wasn't feeling good, so maybe she gave it to
a friend to mail, and so I took it upon
myself even before I gave it to the Tulsa police.
Two talked to the five people that I knew who
were closest to her. Her best friend, the young girl
(09:08):
that she went to school with and who came upon
her apartment, the young lady that she stayed with when
she first came back from Eckard College in Florida, and
her brother who saw her that night at school. And
then another friend, a friend who she visited in Texas
that for various reasons, we were looking at some of
(09:29):
the people that that friend knew. So those were the
five people who had the closest contact with them, And
I asked them, do you remember mailing a letter for
Britty right around the time she was murdered? And they
all said, no, that's five people the closest people to her.
(09:50):
That doesn't mean there's not other people, but there's a
problem in how to find those other people. Well, here's
my problem with that. If somebody is close enough to
you that they say, hey, can you mail this for me,
which is kind of like a little mundane type of air,
and sure I can do that. And then days later,
if not hours later, you find out they've been murdered.
(10:13):
You are never going to forget you ran that errand
for them, that would be so etched in your memory
that the last time I saw her, she gave me
a letter to mail to her dad. And then I
get a phone call from a friend, or a fellow student,
or a co worker or a neighbor, somebody that tells
(10:34):
me she's not just dead, but murdered. I can't believe
that person hasn't come forward, well, you know, them coming
forward again. So many of her friends were young and naive,
so I sort of can understand that, but yeah, I
would have. But what I don't agree with is that
some people are saying, who's going to remember mailing something
(10:57):
eighteen years ago? And like you just said, if I
mailed something for someone and she was murdered four days later,
three days later, I'm sure it's all going to remember it.
Every single student that knew those four students in Moscow,
Idaho are never gonna forget where they were when they
(11:18):
found out exactly. There is no way anybody would forget
doing the last favor of that child ever asked somebody
to do. And my point is, especially now, this whole
time they were saying, well, she could have been killed
on the or or the twenty nine, I'm shocked that
(11:39):
person didn't come forward and say, well, it couldn't have
been on the because she gave me a letter on
to mail if it was a friend, absolutely right, So
we have it could have been a friend or it
could have been her. So if she mailed that letter
earlier in the day, went and got something in home
(12:01):
and there was somebody either bum rushed in waiting for
knocked on the door, she thought she had a delivery
and show open the door. Somehow they gained the entry
without forcing their way in, and then she was murdered.
But this changes the entire timeline, And a timeline is
(12:22):
investigation one oh one. You need to know exactly what happened,
exactly when it happened, so that you can get you know,
your suspect pool reduced because if somebody gives you an
alibi for the and you clear them, but then you
find out she might not have been killed on the
(12:44):
Now we have a whole new gotta star from ground
zero because the timeline has just changed because we got
a US posts stamp with a data sale of oh
nine four that we cannot ignore. Tell them what else
you got? So where do you want me to start?
I mean, this is one of those things, honestly. I mean, well, Maggie,
(13:06):
I sit here and I'm thinking all of these years
two thousand five, two thousand seven, two thousand twelve, two
thousand twenty, I mean all these years that you're waiting.
I mean, I'm waiting and waiting. And then you know,
we had this DNA and the DNA was compared to
hundreds hundreds of suspects. Jeff Felton was endless and trying
(13:27):
to figure them out. And then in two thousand nineteen, C. C.
Moore with Paramon not only draws a phenotype picture, but finally,
after a year of searching all the genealogy charts and everything,
makes a direct hit to a person that they interview.
But they say he's not our killer. That's when they
(13:50):
should have gone back to ground zero, you know, and
gone back over the autopsy and gone back over the
evidence and stuff. But was pick and choose, and I've
keep sending them tips all the time and stuff, and
so but I was hesitant when I got this because
I thought, once again, I'm going to give them something
(14:11):
that could mean something, could mean nothing. But I'm really
afraid of what they might want to do or what
they won't do. Rather, here's the bottom line. They can't
clear people based on alibi on They have to factor
this letter in period. They took the evidence from me. Yes,
(14:34):
they didn't ask me for the list of the five
people that I've checked with, as I've checked with my ex.
They haven't contacted him about it yet, and they told
me that they didn't think it was going to mean anything.
One person in particular told me that he didn't think
(14:56):
anybody could remember mailing anything at eighteen years But they
were going to take it and look at it and stuff.
But they didn't have time to sit and listen to
the people I've talked to or listened to my other
concerns about a meat. Okay, well you recently got the
autopsy report, so let's just jump in this thing. So
(15:18):
now you have a letter mark nine. According to the
autopsy report, she had food in her stomach. They list
very clearly. It resembles brown meat, a tomato, and green vegetable.
If you still have food in your stomach. That's usually
four to six hours. So that timeline is going to
(15:41):
get narrated even more now. So if we go off
the assumption theory one she mailed the letter, got something
to eat, and then was murdered within four hours, we
might have a real tight window now compared to three days.
It's not gonna be three days anymore, It's not with
(16:01):
this case. I I really don't know what to believe anymore,
you know, But all these things are just strange. You know,
I had seen autopsy years and years ago, but of
course I had no concerns back in two thousand nine,
two thousand and ten, you know, I mean, because everything
was being looked at um. But you know this, and
it just doesn't seem like to me. And again I'm
(16:24):
still naive. I don't know everything, but I've been learning
a lot over eight ten years. It doesn't seem like
certain evidence that I was told was done and taken,
like swabs and different things. It's not listed in that
autopsy report. It is not listed. Maybe they didn't send
me the full one. I don't know, maybe, but it
(16:45):
is odd. There should be a list of things that
were done the evidence should be listed. Clearly, there was
something found under her fingernails. We swabbed her mouth, we
swabbed her vaginal area. That should be in there. And
here's the thing that when you look at the time
of death, the time of death is not listed. When
(17:05):
you're walking through a homicide scene, you know that death
occurs in stages. So dying is a process. So one
of the first things you want to look for or
you know, is there any bugs, Is there any rigor mortists?
Is there any color? What are the eyes look like?
What's the temperature like? All of these things should happen
(17:28):
to tell you where this body is in this process.
This autopsy is very clear to me. They say there's
no rigor mortis in the jaw. They say that rigor
is mild. So now you're talking four to two hours.
So if you've got mild rigor mortis on top of
food in her stomach, Maggie, this changes this timeline to
(17:52):
such a massive degree that it needs to be ground zero.
You start over today based on what you know. Now,
let's put the word out. Was there somebody else that
did a favor for her? Was a neighbor going to
the grocery store in the post office and did you
(18:13):
know Brittany just say hey, can you mail this for me?
And they've never even talked to that person, but maybe
they'll hear your plea to say, wait a minute. I
did that. I didn't think it was anything. The issue
is that when I was talking, I said, well, you know, here,
I've got four or five people who were closest friends.
They said they didn't mail it. I can give you
(18:34):
those names. He goes, you know, we'll get that later.
But then I said, you know, but I'd really like
to send this to media because that's a way to
really rule out real quickly. Did somebody mail the letter
for her? And words were, you can't do that. That
would ruin the case. That would hurt the case. If
you share that, you can't tell me it's not worth anything.
(18:58):
And at the same time tell me, well, you're going
to ruin the case. I know certain evidence was taken
because I was told that early on by both then
head of homicide and by the then detective. I know
they were given the timeline by the m E. They
didn't just make it up out there their minds. So
(19:18):
that's why I find it so odd that it's not
written on the autopsy. I think it's unusual when they
say there's no injuries to this part of her body
or that part of her body. I think it's odd
that the evidence isn't listed. I think it's odd that
there's nothing notated of what they sent to the state
crime Lab. And again is did they send me the
(19:40):
whole record? I mean, it seemed like it was pretty complete,
but I don't know. I guess it read as though
it was complete, but there was some things I would
certainly like to have seen on there. But here's the thing,
in my professional opinion, the timeline has changed, so some
(20:03):
of these folks that they have cleared, I believe they
need to speak to again just to get clarification. Is
there a possibility she was alive on Is there a
possibility she mailed that letter herself? We have to know that. Now.
I've been sending emails and requests saying, you know, so,
(20:26):
what are you going to be doing with the card?
You know? Are we gonna look at the timeline? You know,
I've not got in any response. It's certainly something we're
going to do. So we're gonna pinpoint where this was
mailed from. Was it a post office or a kiosk.
We're putting the word out. Does anybody have any information
(20:50):
of how this got mailed? Did Brittany ask somebody to
mail it? Did she ask you a week before to
mail it and it was in your car and then
you saw it in the visor and decided to mail it.
I've done that myself. If I put something in the
sun visor, I may not see it for a couple
of days. So again, you can help us with this timeline.
(21:11):
If nobody comes forward, then we have to stay that
it must have been Brittany that mailed it. It's just
every time I think this case can't get more mixed up,
it does, you know. And it both gives me hope,
you know, and I'm finding myself, you know, and having
this anticipation and that at the same time I'm so
(21:32):
concerned that it's still not going to answer anything. I Mean,
this really seems like maybe we've finally found one of
the reasons there's such a block in this case. Well,
here's what I believe. I believe there is DNA. I
believe something is going to come from that from some
of the testing that we believe, prayerfully is being done
(21:55):
that you have asked repeatedly to get done. I think
some answers are coming. But I believe this is such
a message in a bottle type moment. I know. I mean,
it's it's like, you know, I often, I don't know
what I believe in, you know, but it's often I
often that's pretty, you know. I just say please, please,
(22:17):
to somehow affect, you know, something, to turn up or
to lead us somewhere. So maybe, Mama, I don't know
what more she could have done. I know, I know. Well,
it's like you know when people say, oh, the Lord
works in mysterious ways, does he? Because this is in
your face, Brittany could not have done more to say,
(22:41):
all right, mama, you wanted me to give you a clue.
Here it is from my own handwriting to my own daddy,
and he sent it to you, somebody you don't even
talk to. He reaches out to you because he finds this,
and he notices the post stamp, and I mean, game on,
I mean that to me, it's powerful. Well yeah, and
(23:02):
then inside the card are worth these words of because
it was a birthday card to her grandfather for her
dad to give to him. And she went, you know,
I love your granddad. I'm sorry this is late. You know,
It's sort of to me, was sort of saying, you know,
I'm sorry, I won't see you again type of thing.
(23:23):
But but you know what it says to me that
she was even more in a hurry to mail it.
She already knew it was late, so she wanted it
to get to the post office. Well, I think a
lot of good evidence has come out with that. Just surprised.
I think they're gonna look at this and say, Okay,
we gotta make sure that we're gonna look at this
(23:45):
timeline one more time. We're gonna make sure that these
alibis line up now with this new possible significant lead.
And I think that whether it's state lab or a
private lab, I think we're gonna have some answers real soon.
(24:05):
And Maggie, I mean, you are a warrior. And I
know you're sitting right now in a hotel room by yourself,
and you're trying to process all this and you're doing
the best you know with it. But I admire you,
and I am telling you in my gut this is
such a sign from your child that I ain't gonna
(24:26):
ignore it. I'm not going to either let's help law
enforcement by spreading the word to encourage witnesses to come forward.
The phone number for the tults of p D it's
night five nine six nine one three five. So I'm
(24:51):
gonna end Zone seven like I always do with a
quote from somebody from my Zone seven, and tonight it
comes from is in Leaving the Mama of Sean Gelieving,
Do not give up, leave no stone unturned. Look for
signs of loved ones, but don't look hard. They'll show
(25:15):
up when you're not expecting it. I'm Cheryl McCollum and
this is on seven. Y'all better buckle up for next week.
(25:37):
Not only are you gonna hear from one of my
friends from my Zone seven, but he is also one
of my mentors. He is a living legend in the
law enforcement world. Clay Bryant will make you think he
came right off the pages of To Kill a mocking Bird.
(25:58):
He is a law man with the heart of gold
and enough horse sense to capture professional criminals all by himself.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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