April 2, 2025 • 27 mins
This is a three-part podcast series dedicated to understanding how serial killers form, and how we can stop them before they strike again. Hosted by award-winning crime scene investigator Sheryl McCollum, each episode features a guest expert who brings unique expertise into the psychology, behavior, and patterns of serial offenders.
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, sits down with Phil Chalmers, a seasoned criminal profiler whose life’s work has taken him face-to-face with some of the most notorious killers in American history. Phil shares what it’s really like to sit across from people like Charles Manson and David Berkowitz, known as the Son of Sam. Today, Sheryl and Phil go deeper than infamous names; it’s about understanding why people kill. Phil breaks down the roots of violent behavior, pointing to patterns like fatherlessness, childhood trauma, and relentless bullying. He also challenges long-held assumptions about what a serial killer looks like, arguing that the modern offender is often far from the stereotypical white male.
Guest Bio and Links:
Phil Chalmers is a 40 year American Criminal Profiler, true crime writer, and host of the Dennis Quaid owned podcast “Where The Bodies Are Buried.” His live trainings are legendary in the law enforcement world, as he trains police officers, the FBI, probation officers, school administrators, and many other professionals. You may have seen Phil on A&E’s Killer Kids, or Fox’s Crime Watch Daily. He has interviewed hundreds of violent killers, including serial killers, school shooters, mass murderers, family annihilators, and spree killers. Names you might know on his interview list include Charles Manson, The Son of Sam, BTK, The Hillside Strangler, The Gainesville Ripper, The Zodiac Copycat, The Smiley Face Killer, and the Amityville Horror Killer.
Listeners can learn more about at Phil Chalmers at his website, on IG @philechalmerprofiler and his podcast - Where The Bodies Are Buried
Resources:
Inside the Mind of a Teen Killer
Serial Killers: The Experience Tour
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
- (0:20) Sheryl introduces guest, Phil Chalmers to the listeners
- (2:00) Phil gives a brief background of himself and his work
- (3:00) Inside the mind of a serial killer
- (5:00) Twelve myths of serial killers
- (11:00) Bullying and the path to school shootings
- (12:00) 13 reasons kids kill
- (13:30) The number one reason teens kill
- (15:00) Myths in serial killer profiling
- (18:30) Phil discusses reasons he works with serial killers
- (20:30) Background of Amon Pressley
- (23:30) What to look for to connect serial killer cases
- (25:30) The signature vs. MO distinction
- (30:15) ”The MO changes.” - Phil Chalmers
- Thanks for listening to another episode! If you’re loving the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to Itunes and leave a rating and review!
---
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stor
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
People say to me all the time, Mac, it must
be incredible to have a seat on the front road
to the greatest show on Earth. It is, and tonight
y'all get to take my seat. Buckle up. Our first
(00:29):
guest in a three part series is Phil Chalmers.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Now, y'all, Phil is a criminal profiler.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Y'all know him from hosting the Dennis Quaid owned podcast
Where the Bodies Are Buried. His live trainings are legendary.
He's trained local law enforcement, probation.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
The FBI. He's even doing one for me in Atlanta.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
You've seen him on A and E's Killer Kids. You've
seen him on Fox's Prime Watch Daily.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Y'all have seen the list of.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Folks he has interviewed, from The Smiley Face, Killer, Charles Manson,
The Son of Sam, and The Games Will Ripper, just to.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Name a few. Tonight he's with us. Feel welcome to
Zone seven.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
How are you doing? Thanks for having me U?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I am doing fantastic? Are you kidding? I got you?
And then two other special guests waiting in the wings.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Tonight is gonna be epic for me and I just
appreciate you. I appreciate your willingness to come on and
you know, bring your expertise in a special guest with you.
You know, I think it's so important what you have
to offer. And you and I have talked off air some,
(01:51):
but I do want to talk about serial killers, their causes,
some warning signs, and some triggers. I'm just gonna let
you take it away, and whenever you want me to
ask you another question, I will.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
But I want people to hear from you.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah. So I've been doing this for forty years, Cheryl,
I've been I've been at this since nineteen eighty five.
And my first faced face meeting was a was a
juvenile serial killer who sacrificed three people to the Devil
Sean Sellers. And then soon after that I met with
son of Sam David Berkowitz, talked to Charles Manson, and
(02:28):
it was kind of like things were set what I
was going to do with my career. And after about
twenty years of research, I started training law enforcement. A
I put out at book and I just I needed
a place to you know, present, and I started with
law enforcement, and I expanded to all different types of occupations, teachers,
probation officers, counselors, judges, you name it. The first twenty
(02:51):
years were really focused on juvenile killers and school shooters.
I wrote a couple of books about that, and then
now I'm kind of focused on serial murder, and so
I figured out why kids kill, and I came out
with all that and the causes, warning signs, triggers, and
now I'm really working hard on well, how to become
a serial killer. I'm just about to put the raps
on my first serial killer book with Wild Blue Press.
(03:15):
What I'm finding with serial killers a little different than
the juvenile killers is it has a lot to do
with their family, their you know, obviously their upbringing, but
it comes down a lot to their relationship with both
of their parents. You know, if they were wanted, if
they were loved, if they had bonding relationships with their parents.
A lot of these guys I'm seeing, even if they
(03:36):
came from what we would call a normal family, they
didn't have a bonding, loving relationship. You know, a lot
of the parents told them, you know, we should have
never had you. You know, ed Kemper was locked in
the basement at night because they they were afraid he's
gonna rape his sisters. I mean, some really weird upbringings
like that, and there's not a whole lot of warning
signs with serial killers. You got to be really good
at catching them because they don't have a lot of
(03:59):
warning signs. You know, they get arrested for raper child
molestation or peeping tome stuff like that along the way,
but they pretty much have to make a mistake. So
you know, in defense of law enforcement, it's very hard
to catch somebody who kills strangers, and it's able to
you know, target random victims. And especially if you're a
(04:19):
truck driver, you know, you're dumping bodies two states away,
you're dumping clothing two states away. The biggest thing I'm
dealing with this new book is the miss of serial Killers,
and I think that's going to be a bomb drop
on people. Is everybody thinks they know who serial killers
are because you know, we we watch the news and
we watch some of the movies and stuff. But yeah,
(04:40):
I've got twelve miss of serial killers that were coming
out with in this book, and there's a couple real
bangers that are going to shock people.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Okay, well twelve is a pretty big number. Let me
go back just a second and ask how you got
into the first interview, Like what made you contact them?
How did you contact them? How did the son of
Sam respond? How did Charles Manson respond? Like?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
How did that happen?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I started this company in nineteen eighty five. I started
working with trouble kids, and I quickly found out within
the first five years of doing that is if I
was going to help these kids, I needed to find
out why they were committing these violent crimes. And I've
just always been thinking outside the box, even you know,
(05:28):
as a young person. And I said, well, I think
I have to go to prison and talk to the
killers to figure this out. And so there was this big,
big case in Oklahoma, this Sean Seller's kid. He was
a young white male. He killed his parents in a
circle k clerk at sixteen years old, and he was
on death row, which is back then you could get
(05:49):
the death penalty as a juvenile, and he was actually
executed for his crimes. So I heard about his case
and I was like, what the hell, I'll send him
a letter and you know, see if he responds. And
he did respond, and he allowed me to come in
actually not just meet with them, but we did a
really big camera interview and they made a movie out
of it called stuck in a nightmare. The crazy part
(06:10):
about it, and this was my first of many, and
I talk about this in my shows is he was
super nice, super humble, super soft spoken. And I tell people,
quite frankly, he was nicer than me. I was not
as nice as him. I have very troubled upbringing as well,
in the city of Cleveland, and you know, violent alcoholic
father and all this stuff. So I was like wow.
So that was my first eye opener. I just interviewed
(06:32):
a satanics. He was a Satanist and he was a
serial killer, and he was nicer than me. I was
like wow. And then when I was young, I think
the movie came out nineteen seventy something, the Helter Skelter
movie about Charles Manson was on TV. My brother and
I watched it with my mom and I slept on
my parents' bedroom floor for like four nights. And it
(06:55):
was weird that twenty years later I was actually, you know,
talking with Charles mans I couldn't believe that. And again,
he was a little bit more normal than you expected
him to be. I mean, he wasn't as crazy as
he appears on TV. Basically, he would send me nice cards,
he would send me Christmas cards. I still have some
of the Christmas cards he sent me with a swasti gun.
(07:18):
You would autograph him with a swastika. So it was
just weird that I was talking to that guy, the
guy that was the monster in my dreams as a
little boy. You know. Then I met with Suda Sam
and the same thing. When I left the Son of
Sam interview, I drove home and I said, this guy's
nicer than my dad. The whole thing is surreal for me,
you know, like it opened my eyes really quickly that
(07:41):
these killers are not what they seem to be, like,
they're way more normal than I thought. I expected to
walk in and see a monster sitting.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
In the meeting room or the interview room or wherever
I was at, and I would look over and see
this old guy sitting there, or see this young guy
sitting there, and I would say, there's no way that's
the ripper, the wrangler, the stabber, the slayer, And sure
as hell it was right, always them.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
And Son of Sam was very nice. He prayed for me,
He still prays for me. He emails me once a month.
He's still alive, been very kind to my wife and
I and he's very religious.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Now he and I have had some communication just over
you know, writing letters, and he has been nothing but
polite and kind and like you said, you know, all
friend prayers and advice and different things on cases.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
And if you just read.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
The letters and did not know who they were from,
you would never ever think it was from anybody violent.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
No, And people ask me, what's the one thing these
serial killers have in common? And I tell him, I said,
the one thing they have in common is they're all different.
And until you understand that, it's hard to understand serial
killers because they're all different. You can't put them in
the Damer Bundy Gacy box. You know, they're all different,
they all have different upbringing, they all they all act differently,
(09:01):
they all responded, they all killed differently, they killed for
different reasons. And a lot of people are stuck in
the early FBI profiler nineteen seventies research, and that research
is fifty years old. I mean, you know, we have
to update it. And that's that's really what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Is your upbringing? What got you into it?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Like you wanted answers for these kids, but did you
want answers for yourself?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Yeah? I mean I was raised in a pretty dysfunctional home, poverty,
inner city Cleveland. Rob done the way to school, you know.
And when I got out of school, I went to
college for two years and I took accounting, and after
two years of accounting, I said this is not for me.
So I said, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna do what
(09:46):
I really am passionate about. I'm going to work with
troubled kids because I could relate to those kids, you know,
I know exactly how they were raised. I could relate
to them. And that's how I got started. And then
it became a mission to figure out why, you know,
why is this in the good news? I figured it out,
and I've talked to almost every school shooter and oh
my gosh, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of teen killers
(10:08):
and studied it for ten years. When I wrote my book,
Inside the Mind of a Teen Killer that's two thousand
and nine, and that's when I started trading law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
In that book.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
I love the way you bring up bullying because I
don't think people expect it, and I don't think they
expect for you to talk about it the way that
you do.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Can you talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yeah, I mean, bullying is very dangerous and it's a
big part of these crimes. And I'm not sure what
you're referring to in the book, but you know, bullying
is the number one cause of school shootings even today,
and it's been the same for my whole forty year career.
And I'm always really encouraging schools to take it serious
(10:52):
and to have you know, serious consequences and eliminated at
the school because almost every school shooter I've talked to,
I would say or bullying, it's the causal factor of
those crimes.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah, that's what I want you to talk about, because
a lot of people try to say that's not it.
They're just claiming that now. And I think you know
in your book you highlight it so well. I just
wanted you to mention that since yeah, you said it,
it just made me think, hey, we need to say that.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah. I mean, there's no question about it's the number
three cause of why kids kill. There's sixteen reasons why
I'm sorry, thirteen reasons why kids kill in my book,
and bully's number three. So it's up there. It's the
number one cause of school shootings. It's still the top
three of why kids kill. When I see you doing
my live show, boy, have the Santana, California kid call in.
(11:40):
Charles Williams shot people at his San Diego school and
he was beaten, punched, They stole his money, They poured
salad dressing on his head. They sprayd him a lighter fluid,
set him on fire, tried to drown him in the
pool of the school. I mean a lot of people
are like, well, you know, it depends on what bully
is listening. I only use help pulls. I he was
(12:01):
where we know it's bullying. You know, we know what
bullying is, and we use those examples. And you know
a lot of kids say they're being bullied and maybe
they're not. But the ones I'm talking about were definitely
bullied and they eventually retaliated and what they do this
is kind of an interesting piece of the school shooter.
A lot of people ask the school shooter live in
my training, did you target your bullies? And they say
(12:23):
they usually say no, I was killing everybody. See everybody
wrong that kid at that school. The bullies did, the
friends who laughed, the friends who didn't help, the classmates
who didn't help, the teachers who didn't help. Basically, everybody dies.
Everybody's guilty of this crime. That's why I tell teachers
(12:44):
when I do teacher training. Listen, man, when these guys
come to school, everybody's a target, you know. I mean,
everybody is potentially in danger. They don't go hunting for
their bullies, they just start killing people. And that's what
we see.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Now you said there were thirteen reasons, I have to ask,
what's the number one reason teens kill?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
So number one reason why teens kill, and also number
one reason why serial killers kill it is the fatherlessness connection.
They have no father. That's the number one reason why
kids kill. No daddy, And there's a ton of studies
about that. No daddy can lead to a lot of things, prison, poverty, pregnancy, death, suicide,
(13:25):
a lot of things, but it does lead to to homicide.
And if you show me a juvenile killer, show me
a school shooter, pretty much they don't have a daddy.
And that's a big one. That's number one. Number two
would be the unstable, dysfunctional, abusive home, which most people
think that's number one, but that's number two. And then,
(13:46):
like I said, number three is bullying. So a lot
of it is what's done to those kids growing up.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
They do.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Well.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
You have spoken to so many of the serial killers
that people know, but you've also spent a lot of
time with serial killers people have never heard of.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
And I think some of.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
The information that you've gotten from both groups is unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Most people think serial killers are white males in their
mid to l eight twenties. That would be your typical profile.
If you even asked your local law enforcement officers that
your department, that's going to be what they say. And
if they use that profile, they're going to arrest seven
percent of serial killers. And the reason is most serial
killers are not white, they're black. Sixty percent of serial
(14:35):
killers today are black. Only thirty percent are white. And
they're much older than we thought thirties, forties, even up
to fifties. So we're missing the point. If we're just
looking our suspects are just white males in their twenties
even thirties. That in mind. In my new book, I
have one thousand and thirty six black serial killers. Now
(14:58):
most people can't name one. These cases are as crazy
as their white counterparts, just that nobody knows who they are.
And I think we're going to have one of those
people called today. People just don't know him. And the
nicknames are crazy, the crimes are crazy, how they operate
is crazy. I mean, it's a shame that people don't
(15:18):
know these cases. And I think after this book comes out,
it's going to be a bomb drop because people are
going to have a whole new wave of serial killers
to study. Then what has there been about twenty Let's see,
in the United States, there's been about I think it's
thirty four hundred serial killers, so where about a thousand
(15:39):
are black. So you know, almost a third of serial
killers are black in history, but in the last ten
years it's sixty percent black. So it's a very high
population and that's the reason they get away with so
many murders. Like Sam Little America's deadly a serial killer,
killed ninety three people. He's a black male.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah, Wayne Williams in Atlanta.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah was Atlanta. Berta Edward. I think he named Berta Edwards.
She killed thirteen in Atlanta. She's back in the day,
but she's the America's deadliest female serial color. She killed thirteen.
He's miss Miss Atlanta, Atlanta's Miss Bluebear Orberta Elders name sorry,
and America's youngest serial killer, Craig Price. Warwick Slasher killed
(16:21):
four victims by his fifteenth birthday, stabbed him fifteen times each.
So these are people that nobody knows you know, and
are not many people know. So it's gonna be a
it's gonna be a really nice I can't wait for
the book to come out.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Well, I know one person that you have dealt with
a lot. You will call in a little bit.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
But one thing I was interested about is when you
started working with Presley he confessed. Did you find that
easier to gain information from him since he had already
told everybody he did it?
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah? I mean I usually don't work with the guys
who claimed to be innocent. Once they say I'm innocent
in my crimes, I say goodbye because there's no reason
for me to work with them. Presley. I like Presley.
I like talking to Presley. Oh. Number one goal is
always to find cold cases and locate bodies. So that's
always what I'm digging for. So, okay, Aim and Presley,
(17:17):
have you killed anybody else?
Speaker 1 (17:18):
You know?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Are there any bodies you haven't give it up? So
you know that's my first thing. That's always the first
thing I do. What's something you've never told anybody before?
Those are the questions I ask. And then once I
get past that, it's you know, tell me why you
did this, tell me how you got away with it?
What can law enforcement learn from this? Presley is very
(17:39):
well spoken. That's why I like him. He can explain
Like a lot of guys can't explain why they did it,
he can explain his mentality, and it's it's it's unbelievable
actually to listen and plait it. So I have a
good relationship with him, and I have a really good
relationship with a lot of guys like him. And it's
(18:00):
like going to the zoo. I'm the I'm the lion
tamer and Presley's the lion. And you wouldn't go meet
with him on the streets of Atlanta. That would be
kind of dangerous. But he's in a cage now, and
I'm going to bring you into there and kind of
show you how. You know, how he operates and you
know how he responds to stuff, and that that's kind
of what it's like. We're going to open up, open
(18:21):
up the prison door and let him come out and talk,
and you know, give your listeners a little view into
the mind of a guy that walks around killing innocent
people in Atlanta for no reason. You know, luckily he
got caught. He would have killed a lot of people.
He made a great, big mistake, and he got caught
early on after I think just four murders, four or
(18:44):
five murders.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I agree with you.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I think he would have gone on a spree that
would have been catastrophic.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Oh yeah, he was on his way. Yeah, he was
what he was doing and there was no turning back.
He'll tell you that he was not going to stop this.
In fact, the reason you know that he never got
rid of the gun. And just to give you a
little preface on Aiman Presley, you can look him up.
Just look up Presley, serial Killer Atlanta. He was an
actor and he was successful actor. He had acted in
(19:13):
some big commercials I think Church's Chicken, and he was
on a couple TV shows like Ti the Rapper. TI
had a TV show he was on there. He had
done some things and he hit hard times. He went
to la and acted, came back to Atlanta and then
basically he had hard times and he bought a gun
to start robbing people and for some reason. He explains
(19:36):
it that homicide took over him. Let me just lead
into another one of my miss Cheryl. People think serial
killers kill up close and personal. They think serial murder
is you know, if it's a serial killer, it's got
to be up close and personal, strangulations, stabbing, that's how
serial killers kill. That is so nineteen seventies overwhelming right now.
(19:58):
The number one way serial killers kill is shit shooting people,
which is what Presley did. And we've just arrested several
shooters in the last two years. DC snipers were not alone.
There were tons of people like them. So serial killers
shoot people. That throws off law enforcement because they think
it's gangs or drugs and they don't really work it
like a serial killer case. Right. Another thing is people
(20:21):
think since most serial killers are men, ninety three percent
of serial killers are men. There's been about two hundred
and twenty female serial kims in the United States, and
people think since serial killers are men, they're obviously killing women.
Well that's not really the case either, because a lot
of serial killers are not lust killers. They don't kill
for sexual reason, their anger retaliation. Presley is one of
(20:45):
those non lust killers. He never had sex with any
of his victims. When you're not a lust killer and
you're just out to kill people, men are just as
in danger as women. So basically, for the men out there,
you are just as in danger of being a victim
of a serial killer as a woman. And it's fifty
one percent of victims are female and forty nine percent
are men. You know, Gacy Coral Domer, you know these
(21:08):
guys bone it up in California. They kill men.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
What is the number one thing you would tell people
when they are looking at a case, a detective, a
young detective especially, but when they're trying to connect cases
that seemingly have no connection, what do you tell them
to look for?
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Well, first of all, you can sometimes tell by looking
at the crime scenes if it's a serial killer, a husband,
a robber, a burglar. There's different types of crime scenes.
So when you see my training Cheryl coming up here,
you'll see we'll show a lot of crime scenes and
you'll see, Wow, that's what a serial killer crime scene
looks like. That's what a husband, that's what a you know,
(21:54):
a random crime scene looks. So that's first thing. Serial
killers love to see page they love to do weird
shit to their victims and you'll be able to it
stands out. But one thing I try to tell my detectives,
FBI agents, whoever, is two things you need to know.
The signature, the serial killer signature. The calling card never changes.
(22:18):
So the one way you could connect the cases is
what is the serial killer signature? BTK always bound the
victim's knees. I've never seen anybody do that. They buying hands,
they buying feet, They don't buy knees. Okay, Denis Raider
always used a clove hitch. Not every time, he every
time he drew, and every time he drew, tighten out.
(22:41):
So the signatures are the calling card and they connect
all the cases. The problem with law enforcement another one
of my miss is law enforcement believes the mo O
never changed, and that gets us in trouble because the
mo often changes. So if a young detective believes the
nineteen seventies research that the mo the modus operandi never changes,
(23:07):
they get thrown off. When they have three victims. Let's
say there's three white females killed in Atlanta. One is strangled,
one is bludgeoned, and one is stabbed. They're going to
have trouble connecting those three cases. And I would say,
wait a minute's three white females in the same vicinity
of Atlanta all killed and dumped, you know, in random
(23:30):
vacant lots. It's the same guy. He just changes mo.
And you have to learn that that they do change
your mom Things happen, things go south, or the victim
fights and puts up a fight. There's always a reason
why it doesn't go down like they wanted to. That's
what I tell my young detectives.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, I agree with you on hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah, try to find the signature. Know that the MO changes.
Study the crime scene. Catching a serial killer is difficult.
And the one thing we'll see what serial killers is
towards the end of their crime spree, they do step
up and speed up their amount of murders. So they'll
kill someone, they'll kill another one in six months, they'll
(24:11):
kill another one in three months, they'll kill another one
in one month, and they'll kill one in two weeks.
And it's bang bang bang. And then they get careless
and you know, Bundy grabs a little girl off of
a playground and yeah, dahmer, lets a guy get loose
with a handcuff on and dumb ass BTK sends a
floppy dis to the police department. It's traced right to
his church. I mean they make mistakes. Sure Gacy grabs
(24:33):
a kid at his local pharmacy, I mean that's crazy.
So you know you have to wait until that happens. Sometimes,
you know, they're hard to catch unless you get some
sort of DNA hit or some sort of video footage
or something. You know.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well, normally at the academy, if I'm teaching young detectives,
I will use Bundy as an example, because here you've
got a guy that is strangling with Penny hoose, he's
bludgeing in with logs and some of them he's beheading,
and you would never think that was the same guy.
And to your point, if you're only going by m O,
you'll never catch it.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
I do a serial killer evening show now, it's called
serial Killer's Experience at Wineries, Breweries, country Clubs, and we
talk about some kind of cool stuff in that show,
and we talk about why do serial killers cannibalize, why
do they necrophilia? You know, why do they dismember and behead?
Bundy was one of the ones that would take the
head home as a trophy, which is really horrific, and
(25:27):
he would take it home to have sex with it,
which is And I say to people, can you imagine,
I mean, imagine how twisted you are they have sex
with the dead woman's head. I mean, that's it doesn't
get much crazier than that, you know, but that's the
things these guys do. And it really makes no sense
some of it. But a lot of them are in
(25:47):
a necrophilia. Bundy was in a necrophilia. A lot of
them have sex with their victims after they're dead. And
they always tell me they do that because the victim
doesn't scream, the victim doesn't fight, They can take their time,
they could do what they want to do. It's less
stressful for them. And I try to keep a straight
face when they're telling me these things, like oh, okay, yeah,
(26:08):
makes sense, it makes sense, and as I'm secretly interiorly
horrified about what I'm hearing.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
But you know how important is that? It's it's invaluable
to law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
I always ask law enforcement questions to see what they know.
And I know it's important when I'm doing because a
lot of people don't know this and and I don't
expect them to know it because it's pretty specific information.
But I'm glad to be speaking at all the chiefs
and sheriffs conferences around the country and you know, doing this,
(26:44):
and it's been it's been really nice. It's been really cool.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well, they need to hear it and listen.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
I just want to tell you how much I appreciate
you joining us, your straightforward information, giving us a little
bit of your new look on the myths. I think
people's jaws are gonna draw, there's no doubt about it.
But I just want to personally tell you I appreciate it.
I appreciate you coming on Zone seven, being a part
of my Zone seven, and Honey, I.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Cannot wait until you hit the stage at my department.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I can't wait for that. It's gonna be fun looking
forward to that.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
How do you have a traffic listen, There's not much
we can do about that, but you know, maybe we
can get somebody to pick you up with a blue light.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
That'll help a little bit.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
But I do want to tell you I appreciate it,
and I just want to end this segment like I
always do, with a quote, and that is the mo
changes Phil charmers, thank you so much.
People say to me all the time, Mac, it must
be incredible to have a seat on the front road
to the greatest show on Earth. It is, and tonight
y'all get to take my seat. Buckle up. Our first
(00:29):
guest in a three part series is Phil Chalmers.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Now, y'all, Phil is a criminal profiler.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Y'all know him from hosting the Dennis Quaid owned podcast
Where the Bodies Are Buried. His live trainings are legendary.
He's trained local law enforcement, probation.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
The FBI. He's even doing one for me in Atlanta.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
You've seen him on A and E's Killer Kids. You've
seen him on Fox's Prime Watch Daily.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Y'all have seen the list of.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Folks he has interviewed, from The Smiley Face, Killer, Charles Manson,
The Son of Sam, and The Games Will Ripper, just to.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Name a few. Tonight he's with us. Feel welcome to
Zone seven.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
How are you doing? Thanks for having me U?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I am doing fantastic? Are you kidding? I got you?
And then two other special guests waiting in the wings.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Tonight is gonna be epic for me and I just
appreciate you. I appreciate your willingness to come on and
you know, bring your expertise in a special guest with you.
You know, I think it's so important what you have
to offer. And you and I have talked off air some,
(01:51):
but I do want to talk about serial killers, their causes,
some warning signs, and some triggers. I'm just gonna let
you take it away, and whenever you want me to
ask you another question, I will.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
But I want people to hear from you.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah. So I've been doing this for forty years, Cheryl,
I've been I've been at this since nineteen eighty five.
And my first faced face meeting was a was a
juvenile serial killer who sacrificed three people to the Devil
Sean Sellers. And then soon after that I met with
son of Sam David Berkowitz, talked to Charles Manson, and
(02:28):
it was kind of like things were set what I
was going to do with my career. And after about
twenty years of research, I started training law enforcement. A
I put out at book and I just I needed
a place to you know, present, and I started with
law enforcement, and I expanded to all different types of occupations, teachers,
probation officers, counselors, judges, you name it. The first twenty
(02:51):
years were really focused on juvenile killers and school shooters.
I wrote a couple of books about that, and then
now I'm kind of focused on serial murder, and so
I figured out why kids kill, and I came out
with all that and the causes, warning signs, triggers, and
now I'm really working hard on well, how to become
a serial killer. I'm just about to put the raps
on my first serial killer book with Wild Blue Press.
(03:15):
What I'm finding with serial killers a little different than
the juvenile killers is it has a lot to do
with their family, their you know, obviously their upbringing, but
it comes down a lot to their relationship with both
of their parents. You know, if they were wanted, if
they were loved, if they had bonding relationships with their parents.
A lot of these guys I'm seeing, even if they
(03:36):
came from what we would call a normal family, they
didn't have a bonding, loving relationship. You know, a lot
of the parents told them, you know, we should have
never had you. You know, ed Kemper was locked in
the basement at night because they they were afraid he's
gonna rape his sisters. I mean, some really weird upbringings
like that, and there's not a whole lot of warning
signs with serial killers. You got to be really good
at catching them because they don't have a lot of
(03:59):
warning signs. You know, they get arrested for raper child
molestation or peeping tome stuff like that along the way,
but they pretty much have to make a mistake. So
you know, in defense of law enforcement, it's very hard
to catch somebody who kills strangers, and it's able to
you know, target random victims. And especially if you're a
(04:19):
truck driver, you know, you're dumping bodies two states away,
you're dumping clothing two states away. The biggest thing I'm
dealing with this new book is the miss of serial Killers,
and I think that's going to be a bomb drop
on people. Is everybody thinks they know who serial killers
are because you know, we we watch the news and
we watch some of the movies and stuff. But yeah,
(04:40):
I've got twelve miss of serial killers that were coming
out with in this book, and there's a couple real
bangers that are going to shock people.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Okay, well twelve is a pretty big number. Let me
go back just a second and ask how you got
into the first interview, Like what made you contact them?
How did you contact them? How did the son of
Sam respond? How did Charles Manson respond? Like?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
How did that happen?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I started this company in nineteen eighty five. I started
working with trouble kids, and I quickly found out within
the first five years of doing that is if I
was going to help these kids, I needed to find
out why they were committing these violent crimes. And I've
just always been thinking outside the box, even you know,
(05:28):
as a young person. And I said, well, I think
I have to go to prison and talk to the
killers to figure this out. And so there was this big,
big case in Oklahoma, this Sean Seller's kid. He was
a young white male. He killed his parents in a
circle k clerk at sixteen years old, and he was
on death row, which is back then you could get
(05:49):
the death penalty as a juvenile, and he was actually
executed for his crimes. So I heard about his case
and I was like, what the hell, I'll send him
a letter and you know, see if he responds. And
he did respond, and he allowed me to come in
actually not just meet with them, but we did a
really big camera interview and they made a movie out
of it called stuck in a nightmare. The crazy part
(06:10):
about it, and this was my first of many, and
I talk about this in my shows is he was
super nice, super humble, super soft spoken. And I tell people,
quite frankly, he was nicer than me. I was not
as nice as him. I have very troubled upbringing as well,
in the city of Cleveland, and you know, violent alcoholic
father and all this stuff. So I was like wow.
So that was my first eye opener. I just interviewed
(06:32):
a satanics. He was a Satanist and he was a
serial killer, and he was nicer than me. I was
like wow. And then when I was young, I think
the movie came out nineteen seventy something, the Helter Skelter
movie about Charles Manson was on TV. My brother and
I watched it with my mom and I slept on
my parents' bedroom floor for like four nights. And it
(06:55):
was weird that twenty years later I was actually, you know,
talking with Charles mans I couldn't believe that. And again,
he was a little bit more normal than you expected
him to be. I mean, he wasn't as crazy as
he appears on TV. Basically, he would send me nice cards,
he would send me Christmas cards. I still have some
of the Christmas cards he sent me with a swasti gun.
(07:18):
You would autograph him with a swastika. So it was
just weird that I was talking to that guy, the
guy that was the monster in my dreams as a
little boy. You know. Then I met with Suda Sam
and the same thing. When I left the Son of
Sam interview, I drove home and I said, this guy's
nicer than my dad. The whole thing is surreal for me,
you know, like it opened my eyes really quickly that
(07:41):
these killers are not what they seem to be, like,
they're way more normal than I thought. I expected to
walk in and see a monster sitting.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
In the meeting room or the interview room or wherever
I was at, and I would look over and see
this old guy sitting there, or see this young guy
sitting there, and I would say, there's no way that's
the ripper, the wrangler, the stabber, the slayer, And sure
as hell it was right, always them.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
And Son of Sam was very nice. He prayed for me,
He still prays for me. He emails me once a month.
He's still alive, been very kind to my wife and
I and he's very religious.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Now he and I have had some communication just over
you know, writing letters, and he has been nothing but
polite and kind and like you said, you know, all
friend prayers and advice and different things on cases.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
And if you just read.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
The letters and did not know who they were from,
you would never ever think it was from anybody violent.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
No, And people ask me, what's the one thing these
serial killers have in common? And I tell him, I said,
the one thing they have in common is they're all different.
And until you understand that, it's hard to understand serial
killers because they're all different. You can't put them in
the Damer Bundy Gacy box. You know, they're all different,
they all have different upbringing, they all they all act differently,
(09:01):
they all responded, they all killed differently, they killed for
different reasons. And a lot of people are stuck in
the early FBI profiler nineteen seventies research, and that research
is fifty years old. I mean, you know, we have
to update it. And that's that's really what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Is your upbringing? What got you into it?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Like you wanted answers for these kids, but did you
want answers for yourself?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Yeah? I mean I was raised in a pretty dysfunctional home, poverty,
inner city Cleveland. Rob done the way to school, you know.
And when I got out of school, I went to
college for two years and I took accounting, and after
two years of accounting, I said this is not for me.
So I said, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna do what
(09:46):
I really am passionate about. I'm going to work with
troubled kids because I could relate to those kids, you know,
I know exactly how they were raised. I could relate
to them. And that's how I got started. And then
it became a mission to figure out why, you know,
why is this in the good news? I figured it out,
and I've talked to almost every school shooter and oh
my gosh, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of teen killers
(10:08):
and studied it for ten years. When I wrote my book,
Inside the Mind of a Teen Killer that's two thousand
and nine, and that's when I started trading law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
In that book.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
I love the way you bring up bullying because I
don't think people expect it, and I don't think they
expect for you to talk about it the way that
you do.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Can you talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yeah, I mean, bullying is very dangerous and it's a
big part of these crimes. And I'm not sure what
you're referring to in the book, but you know, bullying
is the number one cause of school shootings even today,
and it's been the same for my whole forty year career.
And I'm always really encouraging schools to take it serious
(10:52):
and to have you know, serious consequences and eliminated at
the school because almost every school shooter I've talked to,
I would say or bullying, it's the causal factor of
those crimes.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah, that's what I want you to talk about, because
a lot of people try to say that's not it.
They're just claiming that now. And I think you know
in your book you highlight it so well. I just
wanted you to mention that since yeah, you said it,
it just made me think, hey, we need to say that.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah. I mean, there's no question about it's the number
three cause of why kids kill. There's sixteen reasons why
I'm sorry, thirteen reasons why kids kill in my book,
and bully's number three. So it's up there. It's the
number one cause of school shootings. It's still the top
three of why kids kill. When I see you doing
my live show, boy, have the Santana, California kid call in.
(11:40):
Charles Williams shot people at his San Diego school and
he was beaten, punched, They stole his money, They poured
salad dressing on his head. They sprayd him a lighter fluid,
set him on fire, tried to drown him in the
pool of the school. I mean a lot of people
are like, well, you know, it depends on what bully
is listening. I only use help pulls. I he was
(12:01):
where we know it's bullying. You know, we know what
bullying is, and we use those examples. And you know
a lot of kids say they're being bullied and maybe
they're not. But the ones I'm talking about were definitely
bullied and they eventually retaliated and what they do this
is kind of an interesting piece of the school shooter.
A lot of people ask the school shooter live in
my training, did you target your bullies? And they say
(12:23):
they usually say no, I was killing everybody. See everybody
wrong that kid at that school. The bullies did, the
friends who laughed, the friends who didn't help, the classmates
who didn't help, the teachers who didn't help. Basically, everybody dies.
Everybody's guilty of this crime. That's why I tell teachers
(12:44):
when I do teacher training. Listen, man, when these guys
come to school, everybody's a target, you know. I mean,
everybody is potentially in danger. They don't go hunting for
their bullies, they just start killing people. And that's what
we see.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Now you said there were thirteen reasons, I have to ask,
what's the number one reason teens kill?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
So number one reason why teens kill, and also number
one reason why serial killers kill it is the fatherlessness connection.
They have no father. That's the number one reason why
kids kill. No daddy, And there's a ton of studies
about that. No daddy can lead to a lot of things, prison, poverty, pregnancy, death, suicide,
(13:25):
a lot of things, but it does lead to to homicide.
And if you show me a juvenile killer, show me
a school shooter, pretty much they don't have a daddy.
And that's a big one. That's number one. Number two
would be the unstable, dysfunctional, abusive home, which most people
think that's number one, but that's number two. And then,
(13:46):
like I said, number three is bullying. So a lot
of it is what's done to those kids growing up.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
They do.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Well.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
You have spoken to so many of the serial killers
that people know, but you've also spent a lot of
time with serial killers people have never heard of.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
And I think some of.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
The information that you've gotten from both groups is unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Most people think serial killers are white males in their
mid to l eight twenties. That would be your typical profile.
If you even asked your local law enforcement officers that
your department, that's going to be what they say. And
if they use that profile, they're going to arrest seven
percent of serial killers. And the reason is most serial
killers are not white, they're black. Sixty percent of serial
(14:35):
killers today are black. Only thirty percent are white. And
they're much older than we thought thirties, forties, even up
to fifties. So we're missing the point. If we're just
looking our suspects are just white males in their twenties
even thirties. That in mind. In my new book, I
have one thousand and thirty six black serial killers. Now
(14:58):
most people can't name one. These cases are as crazy
as their white counterparts, just that nobody knows who they are.
And I think we're going to have one of those
people called today. People just don't know him. And the
nicknames are crazy, the crimes are crazy, how they operate
is crazy. I mean, it's a shame that people don't
(15:18):
know these cases. And I think after this book comes out,
it's going to be a bomb drop because people are
going to have a whole new wave of serial killers
to study. Then what has there been about twenty Let's see,
in the United States, there's been about I think it's
thirty four hundred serial killers, so where about a thousand
(15:39):
are black. So you know, almost a third of serial
killers are black in history, but in the last ten
years it's sixty percent black. So it's a very high
population and that's the reason they get away with so
many murders. Like Sam Little America's deadly a serial killer,
killed ninety three people. He's a black male.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah, Wayne Williams in Atlanta.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah was Atlanta. Berta Edward. I think he named Berta Edwards.
She killed thirteen in Atlanta. She's back in the day,
but she's the America's deadliest female serial color. She killed thirteen.
He's miss Miss Atlanta, Atlanta's Miss Bluebear Orberta Elders name sorry,
and America's youngest serial killer, Craig Price. Warwick Slasher killed
(16:21):
four victims by his fifteenth birthday, stabbed him fifteen times each.
So these are people that nobody knows you know, and
are not many people know. So it's gonna be a
it's gonna be a really nice I can't wait for
the book to come out.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Well, I know one person that you have dealt with
a lot. You will call in a little bit.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
But one thing I was interested about is when you
started working with Presley he confessed. Did you find that
easier to gain information from him since he had already
told everybody he did it?
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah? I mean I usually don't work with the guys
who claimed to be innocent. Once they say I'm innocent
in my crimes, I say goodbye because there's no reason
for me to work with them. Presley. I like Presley.
I like talking to Presley. Oh. Number one goal is
always to find cold cases and locate bodies. So that's
always what I'm digging for. So, okay, Aim and Presley,
(17:17):
have you killed anybody else?
Speaker 1 (17:18):
You know?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Are there any bodies you haven't give it up? So
you know that's my first thing. That's always the first
thing I do. What's something you've never told anybody before?
Those are the questions I ask. And then once I
get past that, it's you know, tell me why you
did this, tell me how you got away with it?
What can law enforcement learn from this? Presley is very
(17:39):
well spoken. That's why I like him. He can explain
Like a lot of guys can't explain why they did it,
he can explain his mentality, and it's it's it's unbelievable
actually to listen and plait it. So I have a
good relationship with him, and I have a really good
relationship with a lot of guys like him. And it's
(18:00):
like going to the zoo. I'm the I'm the lion
tamer and Presley's the lion. And you wouldn't go meet
with him on the streets of Atlanta. That would be
kind of dangerous. But he's in a cage now, and
I'm going to bring you into there and kind of
show you how. You know, how he operates and you
know how he responds to stuff, and that that's kind
of what it's like. We're going to open up, open
(18:21):
up the prison door and let him come out and talk,
and you know, give your listeners a little view into
the mind of a guy that walks around killing innocent
people in Atlanta for no reason. You know, luckily he
got caught. He would have killed a lot of people.
He made a great, big mistake, and he got caught
early on after I think just four murders, four or
(18:44):
five murders.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I agree with you.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I think he would have gone on a spree that
would have been catastrophic.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Oh yeah, he was on his way. Yeah, he was
what he was doing and there was no turning back.
He'll tell you that he was not going to stop this.
In fact, the reason you know that he never got
rid of the gun. And just to give you a
little preface on Aiman Presley, you can look him up.
Just look up Presley, serial Killer Atlanta. He was an
actor and he was successful actor. He had acted in
(19:13):
some big commercials I think Church's Chicken, and he was
on a couple TV shows like Ti the Rapper. TI
had a TV show he was on there. He had
done some things and he hit hard times. He went
to la and acted, came back to Atlanta and then
basically he had hard times and he bought a gun
to start robbing people and for some reason. He explains
(19:36):
it that homicide took over him. Let me just lead
into another one of my miss Cheryl. People think serial
killers kill up close and personal. They think serial murder
is you know, if it's a serial killer, it's got
to be up close and personal, strangulations, stabbing, that's how
serial killers kill. That is so nineteen seventies overwhelming right now.
(19:58):
The number one way serial killers kill is shit shooting people,
which is what Presley did. And we've just arrested several
shooters in the last two years. DC snipers were not alone.
There were tons of people like them. So serial killers
shoot people. That throws off law enforcement because they think
it's gangs or drugs and they don't really work it
like a serial killer case. Right. Another thing is people
(20:21):
think since most serial killers are men, ninety three percent
of serial killers are men. There's been about two hundred
and twenty female serial kims in the United States, and
people think since serial killers are men, they're obviously killing women.
Well that's not really the case either, because a lot
of serial killers are not lust killers. They don't kill
for sexual reason, their anger retaliation. Presley is one of
(20:45):
those non lust killers. He never had sex with any
of his victims. When you're not a lust killer and
you're just out to kill people, men are just as
in danger as women. So basically, for the men out there,
you are just as in danger of being a victim
of a serial killer as a woman. And it's fifty
one percent of victims are female and forty nine percent
are men. You know, Gacy Coral Domer, you know these
(21:08):
guys bone it up in California. They kill men.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
What is the number one thing you would tell people
when they are looking at a case, a detective, a
young detective especially, but when they're trying to connect cases
that seemingly have no connection, what do you tell them
to look for?
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Well, first of all, you can sometimes tell by looking
at the crime scenes if it's a serial killer, a husband,
a robber, a burglar. There's different types of crime scenes.
So when you see my training Cheryl coming up here,
you'll see we'll show a lot of crime scenes and
you'll see, Wow, that's what a serial killer crime scene
looks like. That's what a husband, that's what a you know,
(21:54):
a random crime scene looks. So that's first thing. Serial
killers love to see page they love to do weird
shit to their victims and you'll be able to it
stands out. But one thing I try to tell my detectives,
FBI agents, whoever, is two things you need to know.
The signature, the serial killer signature. The calling card never changes.
(22:18):
So the one way you could connect the cases is
what is the serial killer signature? BTK always bound the
victim's knees. I've never seen anybody do that. They buying hands,
they buying feet, They don't buy knees. Okay, Denis Raider
always used a clove hitch. Not every time, he every
time he drew, and every time he drew, tighten out.
(22:41):
So the signatures are the calling card and they connect
all the cases. The problem with law enforcement another one
of my miss is law enforcement believes the mo O
never changed, and that gets us in trouble because the
mo often changes. So if a young detective believes the
nineteen seventies research that the mo the modus operandi never changes,
(23:07):
they get thrown off. When they have three victims. Let's
say there's three white females killed in Atlanta. One is strangled,
one is bludgeoned, and one is stabbed. They're going to
have trouble connecting those three cases. And I would say,
wait a minute's three white females in the same vicinity
of Atlanta all killed and dumped, you know, in random
(23:30):
vacant lots. It's the same guy. He just changes mo.
And you have to learn that that they do change
your mom Things happen, things go south, or the victim
fights and puts up a fight. There's always a reason
why it doesn't go down like they wanted to. That's
what I tell my young detectives.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, I agree with you on hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah, try to find the signature. Know that the MO changes.
Study the crime scene. Catching a serial killer is difficult.
And the one thing we'll see what serial killers is
towards the end of their crime spree, they do step
up and speed up their amount of murders. So they'll
kill someone, they'll kill another one in six months, they'll
(24:11):
kill another one in three months, they'll kill another one
in one month, and they'll kill one in two weeks.
And it's bang bang bang. And then they get careless
and you know, Bundy grabs a little girl off of
a playground and yeah, dahmer, lets a guy get loose
with a handcuff on and dumb ass BTK sends a
floppy dis to the police department. It's traced right to
his church. I mean they make mistakes. Sure Gacy grabs
(24:33):
a kid at his local pharmacy, I mean that's crazy.
So you know you have to wait until that happens. Sometimes,
you know, they're hard to catch unless you get some
sort of DNA hit or some sort of video footage
or something. You know.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well, normally at the academy, if I'm teaching young detectives,
I will use Bundy as an example, because here you've
got a guy that is strangling with Penny hoose, he's
bludgeing in with logs and some of them he's beheading,
and you would never think that was the same guy.
And to your point, if you're only going by m O,
you'll never catch it.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
I do a serial killer evening show now, it's called
serial Killer's Experience at Wineries, Breweries, country Clubs, and we
talk about some kind of cool stuff in that show,
and we talk about why do serial killers cannibalize, why
do they necrophilia? You know, why do they dismember and behead?
Bundy was one of the ones that would take the
head home as a trophy, which is really horrific, and
(25:27):
he would take it home to have sex with it,
which is And I say to people, can you imagine,
I mean, imagine how twisted you are they have sex
with the dead woman's head. I mean, that's it doesn't
get much crazier than that, you know, but that's the
things these guys do. And it really makes no sense
some of it. But a lot of them are in
(25:47):
a necrophilia. Bundy was in a necrophilia. A lot of
them have sex with their victims after they're dead. And
they always tell me they do that because the victim
doesn't scream, the victim doesn't fight, They can take their time,
they could do what they want to do. It's less
stressful for them. And I try to keep a straight
face when they're telling me these things, like oh, okay, yeah,
(26:08):
makes sense, it makes sense, and as I'm secretly interiorly
horrified about what I'm hearing.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
But you know how important is that? It's it's invaluable
to law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
I always ask law enforcement questions to see what they know.
And I know it's important when I'm doing because a
lot of people don't know this and and I don't
expect them to know it because it's pretty specific information.
But I'm glad to be speaking at all the chiefs
and sheriffs conferences around the country and you know, doing this,
(26:44):
and it's been it's been really nice. It's been really cool.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well, they need to hear it and listen.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
I just want to tell you how much I appreciate
you joining us, your straightforward information, giving us a little
bit of your new look on the myths. I think
people's jaws are gonna draw, there's no doubt about it.
But I just want to personally tell you I appreciate it.
I appreciate you coming on Zone seven, being a part
of my Zone seven, and Honey, I.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Cannot wait until you hit the stage at my department.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I can't wait for that. It's gonna be fun looking
forward to that.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
How do you have a traffic listen, There's not much
we can do about that, but you know, maybe we
can get somebody to pick you up with a blue light.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
That'll help a little bit.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
But I do want to tell you I appreciate it,
and I just want to end this segment like I
always do, with a quote, and that is the mo
changes Phil charmers, thank you so much.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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