July 28, 2025 • 26 mins
Welcome to Pathology with Dr. Priya | A Zone 7 Series, a forensic deep-dive led by board-certified pathologist Dr. Priya Banerjee. Each Monday, Dr. Priya teams up with Emmy Award–winning CSI Sheryl “Mac” McCollum to explore the silent testimony of the dead and the science behind suspicious deaths. From the autopsy suite to the courtroom, they uncover the truth in tissues, expose investigative missteps, and give voice to those who can no longer speak for themselves. Whether you're a seasoned detective, true crime obsessive, or just curious about what the body can really reveal—this is your front-row seat to forensic pathology in action.
In this debut episode, Dr. Priya reflects on her approach to autopsies, what the body can reveal that others can’t, and why collaboration between law enforcement and medical examiners is essential to justice. With more than 3,000 autopsies to her name—including the high-profile Breonna Taylor case and work with the NSA—Dr. Priya brings both precision and heart to this science. She and Sheryl McCollum break down the John O’Keefe case and walk listeners through what a well-executed forensic process should look like.
You’ll also meet Slice—the puppy with a badge and a calming presence in even the most intense training rooms—and get a glimpse into Dr. Priya’s personal world, where compassion, curiosity, and hard-earned experience converge.
Highlights:
- (0:00) Welcome to Pathology with Dr. Priya | A Zone 7 Series
- (1:00) Who is Dr. Priya? Johns Hopkins, 3,000 autopsies, and an adopted puppy
- (3:30) Inside the case: crime scenes, teamwork, and the John O’Keefe breakdown
- (11:00) What the autopsy can (and can’t) say
- (15:00) Working with families and finding closure
- (22:15) Training detectives—with help from Slice, the puppy with a badge
About the Show
Pathology with Dr. Priya | A Zone 7 Series explores the powerful role forensic pathology plays in uncovering the truth. Each week, Dr. Priya joins Sheryl McCollum to discuss real cases, surprising conclusions, and the science behind suspicious deaths. From overlooked trauma to undiagnosed conditions, the goal is always the same: justice through evidence, and closure through clarity.
If you’ve ever wondered what a body can tell you—this is the show.
About the Hosts
Dr. Priya Banerjee is a board-certified forensic pathologist with extensive experience in death investigation, clinical forensics, and courtroom testimony. A graduate of Johns Hopkins, she served for over a decade as Rhode Island’s state medical examiner and now runs a private forensic pathology practice. Her work includes military deaths, NSA cases, and high-profile investigations. Dr. Priya has also been featured as a forensic expert on platforms such as CrimeOnline and Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She is a dedicated educator, animal lover, and proud mom.
Website: anchorforensicpathology.com
Twitter/X: @Autopsy_MD
Sheryl McCollum is an Emmy Award–winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, and the Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She works as a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department and is the co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute (CCIRI), a nationally recognized nonprofit that brings together universities, law enforcement, and experts to help solve unsolved homicides, missing persons cases, and kidnappings.
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Twitter/X: @149zone7
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
📣 If you liked this episode, don’t keep it to yourself—follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave us a review. Your feedback helps others discover the science, the stories, and the search for truth that define Pathology with Dr. Priya.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I am so excited to bring y'all literally a genius.
I mean, I just don't even know how to call
her anything but a genius. It is Doctor pre of Banergy.
She is a BORED certified forensic pathologist. She did her
residency at the Johns Hopkins. She's an adjunct professor at
(00:32):
Boston University School of Medicine. She has performed over three
thousand autopsies. She has performed over one hundred and fifty
homicide autopsies. She's worked on high profile cases like Breonna Taylor.
She's done military cases and cases for the NSA. She
(00:54):
is a mother, a wife, a cat mom, and a
dog mom. And let me tell y'all, song you know
how you say you could always trust somebody who children
and animals trust. I witnessed this my self. We were
doing a training in North Carolina and there were a
(01:15):
group of puppies. This puppy chose Doctor Priya. It was instant,
it was solid. I've never seen anything like it. We
drove to the training together, and we drove home together
with that puppy because there was no way she could
leave her there. So y'all, we're going to just do
(01:37):
some pathology with doctor Pria. So doctor, welcome to Zone seven.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yes, thank you for having me. That's a very flattering introduction.
I'm smiling and a little embarrassed. I don't know, but yeah, everything,
Thank you for that kindness. And yes, I'm a proud
dog mom, multiple dog momple cat mom and slice right,
Slice and dice. Slice is the newest.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Puppy Slice and dice. And let me tell you you
have an exceptional child. And you know, we all went
on a safari, those of y'all that saw that on
social media, and they were all adults, all experts in
their field. And when I tell you, that child did
(02:25):
not miss a beat with any of them, polite, great conversation. Funny,
I'm like, how old is she? There's no way she's eleven.
But just a great time. And it wasn't like she
behaved for an hour. I spent day after day after
day after day with her in a car for twelve hours.
(02:47):
I know, had a lot of time, so it wasn't
like she was faking y'all.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
So now no, and actually the best part is, I
don't know if I told you, but we're going back.
She said her lifetime bucket list was to stay at
the Giraffe Hotel. So for her birthday and Christmas, and
I would say everything for the year. We're doing that.
In December, I got a reservation.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
That sounds so necessary. She just connected, right, I mean,
she loves animals. You can tell. There's no better birthday.
So that's awesome. There you go, all right, So we're
going to jump into this pathologies with doctor Priya. One
thing that I think is so important, and the thing
(03:30):
that I think I love most about law enforcement is
the teamwork. And you get it from all sides. You
get it from a lot of different places. You get
it from prosecutors and other investigators and detectives, from other
departments and divisions and agencies. But one that is often
overlooked is that camaraderie and that teamwork from the medical examiner.
(03:56):
And I know you and I talked about this, but
I'm going to just toss it right to you and
not wait another second. John O'Keeffe, if he had been
your patient, if you had received that body, walk me
through what you would have done step by step.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Sure, And I think you know you got to sort
of understand. I want to talk about my approach to
autopsies and you know, I'm not that far from the case, right.
I'm in Rhode Island. That's where I practiced over eleven years.
I am in private practice now I don't work for
the state anymore, but I have a lengthy, you know
tenure with the state and the practice is there, so
(04:39):
you know, I used to go to crime scenes and
intimately work with crime scene and homicide detectives. And you know,
at the scenes here it's a small enough state with
multiple jurisdictions. Sometimes even the police she would show up,
you know, definitely the ags. We have attorney generals here,
district attorneys whatever, you know, they're called in their respective jurisdictions.
(05:02):
But it was sort of all boots on the ground
when it was a you know, suspicious death. I didn't
go to every death, but my very well trained investigators did.
But when necessary, I was called, you know, when being
on call. So it's twenty four to seven for at
least a week at a time. You know, I've I've
(05:25):
lost counted how many scenes I went to. And given
that I'm in New England right next door to Massachusetts,
detum Or Canton, I think was only a forty five
minute drive from me, I've testified in the same courtroom
actually with the same judge before, right before the trial started.
In fact, I had another case so unrelated, but exactly
(05:47):
that courtroom with Judge Canoni. So nonetheless, like you have
to look at it in context. What I like to
say is, you know, I actually like crime scene visits,
crime scene work, if you will, because you really get
a sense of what's going on, what's known and what's unknown. Right,
(06:09):
so you're you're right there.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I think nothing takes the place, Nothing.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Takes the place, And you know, obviously we can't be
there at all times, which is why we have amazing
investigators that take detailed reports and report back in the photos.
But you know, I think the biggest thing I always
tell people is I look at the world in a
very different way, sort of effect of my work, you know, like,
(06:33):
and I'm sure you do too. It's like we don't
just walk through the world not noticing what's around us,
what's out of place, what's different. Oh, you know, if
you walked into my house today, everything's a mess because
I had construction going on, you know, so that it's
immediately telling that there's painters tape, and you know, things
are out of sorts. Well, why because there's construction, Like
(06:56):
you know what that means, and that should be a clue.
There's people, Well you know that means there are other
people in the house, right, like normal people that aren't
here are here because construction's going. So then you have
to account for those people. Does that make sense? Like
that automatically leads you down that pathway And so if
we come back to John O'Keefe, what you have to
(07:17):
think about is it's terrible weather, very inexperienced staff, inexperienced
or poorly trained or whatever it is, right, Like, I
don't know if I'm making excuses or the right excuses,
but we know the investigation was poorly handled, right and
(07:38):
I I what really makes me mad is that they
could drive back from a bar in the snow, but
they couldn't go a mile to the police station to
get evidence containers. Right, So it's like, obviously there's sloppy
handling of the scene. But you know, we've all been
in scenes that are less than ideal. I mean I've
had to get into swampy water, use an eight TV
(08:00):
to go into forested areas. Like there's just not you know,
we always joke, right, the crime see never has any lighting.
It's always at dark, it's always in the mud, it's
always in the rain or the snow, always, like it's
Murphy's law. And so that's fine. Like even if it's
the worst case scenario like a snowstorm, they should have
(08:20):
secured the scene. You can revisit it in the daylight, right,
Like you don't have to gather everything, but you make
a barrier, you secure it. And maybe I'm overstepping a
little because that's not my job, right, I mean, we
work collaboratively at the scene, and I would say, hey,
I'm gonna grab the body, photograph it in place, and
(08:40):
then let's put markers so I can come back tomorrow
in the daylight and we can do more searching, right, Like, honestly,
things were frozen in place, right given the nature of
the weather, so it's not going anywhere. You actually sort
of can just barricade it off and have a police car,
(09:01):
you know, guard it overnight and then when it's better
lit and maybe the storm has passed. You know, that
would really be the next best step. So you know,
I've been in situations where it's the first homicide in
ten twenty years in a particular jurisdiction, and they're looking
to me to say what to do, and I'm like, whoa, whoa.
(09:23):
I'm not a detective. I'm here to help you, but
I can't tell you how to do your investigation. I
can make suggestions, right and legally, you know, they don't
have to listen to me because I'm not the one
running the investigation. I'm only responsible for the body at
the scene, like you know, the medical examiner, uh investigator
and myself. If we're at a scene, that's what the
(09:45):
responsibility was. And so you know, of course that's photographed
and examined, but then we whisk the body away and
go from there. Obviously there's so many details about the
body that needed to be examined, and you know, notably
in Massachusetts, the EMMY or you know, that staff doesn't
(10:08):
go to the scene, and mister O'Keeffe, if I remember correctly,
went to the hospital, So there wasn't really what's the
condition of the body at the scene, you know. Nonetheless,
that's where I would start, right like is he dressed appropriately?
You know, does he show any frost bite? Right? Being
in that condition? You know, what trauma is there? We
(10:32):
would X ray him. If I don't know what's going on,
I would have probably gotten fingernail clippings and pulled head
hair just because I'm paranoid. And let's just pull that
trace evidence, collect all his clothes, you know, let's see
what this is about, and document that I think it
was at least one shoe wasn't there, right, So it's
(10:55):
important to know what's there, but what's not there and
relay that information back to police, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And doctor Priya. If I could just be real clear
for everybody, just in case they don't know. When I
work a crime scene, that crime scene belongs to me,
but that body belongs to doctor Priya. So I just
want everybody to understand it. It goes to the medical examiner.
It doesn't I don't process the body in any way.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Right, And I mean, you know, we can have a
collaborative effort in the autopsy suite once the body is
brought back, like I would take evidence and then submit
it to you for further test, you know, submission for testing.
And again that's better done in a controlled situation like
an autopsy suite. Right in the blizzard. I'm not gonna
(11:47):
take fingernail clippings that makes no sense. And it may
be that even I don't you know, I whisked the
body away and then examine it back at the office,
you know, because the conditions are so bad. But it
seemed like there are huge gaps in the thought process
when they handled the case overall. I actually, you know,
(12:11):
truly do believe that the autopsy was done well. You know,
I listened to the testimony of the doctor, the doctors
on the first trial, and the doctor, uh, the primary
pathologist on the second trial. So you know, we've been
through it sort of twice, and I think, you know,
I fall given what we know and don't know, I
(12:34):
actually concur with the conclusions that were made. You just
can't tell undetermined, you know, undetermined, undetermined manner. Now you
know the cause, if you will, of death. So there's
the cause of death and the manner of death. Cause
of death is why did he die? Well, he had
head trauma, right, that killed him, blunt head trauma. Now
(12:54):
we don't know under which circumstances, whether it was a
car strike or a slip and fall or something else. Right,
So that's why the manner is undetermined. We don't know
if it's an accident homicide whatever. But that's okay, I
mean you have to you know, we're not omniscient, We're
this is not TV, and so we can only say
(13:15):
what is defendable in court, right and obviously this case,
you know, exemplifies that that it Every little word you
write is going to be examined and torn apart in court.
And so I think her testimony was excellent, Doctor Sporty Bellow.
I think the autopsy was thorough. But that really shows
(13:35):
you that it's one part of the puzzle, not the
entire puzzle. You can't just rely on the me too.
There's only the Emmy's going to fix a bad investigation
or a lack thereof or a lack of interviewing, you know,
witnesses or ring cameras or whatever was or was not done.
And so that this case really highlights that is, you know,
(13:58):
they wanted to sort of, I don't know, it seemed
like they wanted the Emmy to come and be the
super woman and say, Ahi, I have all the answers
and we know that's not how it works.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Well, you know, one thing that I think is crucial
about the autopsy is the family of the victim. They're
going to get answers, whether it's the answer they want
it or not. But having the truth, having facts, being
able to show somebody this is his a order. You
(14:32):
can see it severed. I mean that you're just gently explaining. Well,
that allows them to have some acceptance, which gives them peace,
which means they can move forward. So when you to
me as a detective, not only are going to dismiss
the medical examiner, but you're going to call her names,
(14:54):
and then you're just going to go in another direction
completely opposite of what she sees, what she's notated, and
what she has explained.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Sure, and really that's communication is really a huge part
of the game. You know, I don't want to say game,
but you know, the actual role that you play. So
whether it comes down to communicating with a family or
communicating to the court, or communicating to detectives, you have
(15:24):
different audiences, if you will, but you're still communicating, you know.
So if I just read you the medical blah blah
blah from the report, no one's gonna understand that everybody
can read a piece of paper. You have to really
help interpret that. And it's interesting you say that because
you know that we're on this because That's really what.
After I transitioned away from my state job because my
(15:45):
mom was critically ill during COVID, I got multiple calls
from families crying on the phone, please do private autopsy.
I don't know why my loved one died. And during COVID,
you know, there was a lot of restrictions on autops
and what the offices could and could not examine or handle,
and procedures changed all throughout. And that, you know, after
(16:09):
I got three calls in one week, I sort of
took it as a signal from above, you know that
maybe I should start doing this. And really, the most
common customer I have are families. It's not lawyers that
want to sue. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like,
that's a minority of cases, and I spend a lot
(16:30):
of time counseling. I probably turned away fifty percent of
my cases because, you know, whether it be the CSI
effect from TV or you know, crime shows, whatever, families
think that we can just tell everything from the autopsy.
So I'm always talking to them. I probably spend half
an hour just you know, asking questions, saying, what do
(16:51):
you want from this autopsy? What is the question to
be answered. What are you know? What is your what
do you want out of this exam from me? I
need to be able to serve a purpose, to really
cut into someone's body, right, I mean, it's still a
very invasive medical procedure. That's why I get permission from
the family, right, I get written permission. Yes, you can
(17:12):
proceed with this. And but you know, once you do,
like what I think is a thorough screening, and you say, look,
I can't tell you you know, did COVID happen first,
or the heart attack happened first, or you know, was
it the cancer or COVID kill him? You know, like
because they're both there. You know, did the pneumonia come
(17:34):
from the lung cancer or COVID? I don't know, right,
because they both affect the lung. You know, sometimes I
can't be more specific, but I can say these are
both really bad, and they're like, ohh okay, like you
know that, Yeah, he was really suffering with the lung
cancer and his immune system was weak and that's why
he got COVID and died. Like, I think that completes
(17:55):
the circle, just as an example, and that's what I mean.
You know, we're not talking about malpractice. We're just talking
about closure, and really that's what they're paying for. And
you know, I hate to say it, there's a almost
like a psychotherapy component to it, right, Like once you
get the autopsy results, like I make it a point
(18:15):
to call my families right after the autopsy. Hey, I
did the autopsy. The body's are going to be released.
These are my findings. Now they're not in a report yet.
That's going to take me time. And if I'm sending
slides or whatnot for more diagnoses, like I can tell
them that you know that this is still in the works.
I don't have all the answers, but you know, there
was times when I found a heart attack, I found
(18:37):
a stroke, I found undiagnosed cancer, and it you know
it almost I hate to say it makes me feel
good to share something when I have that aha.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Moment, and sometimes things can be missed if you're not
given all the information. Let me tell you a true story.
I have a friend, definitely not one of my sisters.
But when Sheila goes to the doctor and he's like,
(19:07):
how you doing, how you feeling great? I feel wonderful,
no problems, nothing at all is wrong. She almost believes
if there's something wrong, he'll find it. But she doesn't
want to complain about, oh my hand feels a little weak,
or I've got tingling in my feed or my vision
is blurry sometimes, like she doesn't want to give him
(19:28):
any roadmap to something wrong.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And that's hard, you know, it is hard because handicapped exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
And my sisters, you know, and my sisters that are
nurses are like, Sheila, you've got a telling that your
side has been hurting for two months.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Because we're not going to see that, right, like right,
And you know, obviously, when I'm dealing with an autopsy,
I asked what state were they in six months ago,
three months ago? When's the last time to take their doctor? Oh?
I've gotten you know, I mean, I think we live,
you know, we do with the Lake community. We deal
with people from all walks of life. Right, And you say,
(20:05):
does he have any medical history? No? Did he take
any medicines? Oh? Yes? And then you're like, oh, well
that's for diabetes, Oh, that's for hypertension, that's for cholesterol.
I'm like, oh my, we have a whole litany of
things going on, even though they don't, you know, so
just digging around but if you don't tell me that information,
I'm not going to be able to find it. And
(20:26):
if he was having I don't know, some sort of tingling,
that's not in the autopsy, right, that's when he was alive,
And so you can't, you know, you try to get
as much information as you can and then go forward.
But I think, you know, I look at it the
autopsy as not just a medical procedure, but like, especially
(20:47):
in my business, like a customer service, does that make sense?
Like I am hired by the family to answer questions
for them, and at that point, it's not just finding data,
but it's also communicating it back to them in an
understandable way. If I tell them, oh, he had a
you know, a rhythmia, this kind of a rhythmia, or
(21:12):
you know, this kind of heart attack that's exactly you know,
eight hours old, they're gonna be like, what you know?
But if I just say he had a heart attack
and then his heart stop beating, they'll be like, oh, okay,
you know. I mean, so you have to make it
understandable as well, And so that's what gives the closure,
you know. And I think when we look at any case,
(21:32):
whether it's personal, you know, whether it's just a family
not just someone's family member died, or something high profile,
which is the other end of the spectrum, like John O'Keefe.
Everybody's just looking for closure. What happened? Right that that's
the big what happened? Why did this happen? And sometimes
that's much easier to determine at the autopsy, and sometimes
(21:56):
it's not right, like in John O'Keefe's case, what has
and was in the sense of the injuries are there, right,
those are easy to document. It's how did this happen?
That was left up to the investigation. And no matter
how many special test X rays specialists look at the
brain the body, we're not going to be able to
tell them more than what was there.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Well, I want to tell everybody that you came to
Atlanta and you did a law enforcement training for me
that was lights out. I mean it was incredible. But
you did two things. One right off the bat, y'all,
she gave respect and honor to every person we were
(22:42):
about to see on a slide. She made sure everybody
understood this is somebody's loved one and they have given
a very private part of themselves so that law enforcement
can be better at their job. And the second thing
you did, you brought slies with you.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I did. I did, yes, because you know, I think
it's heavy, right.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It's heavy, it's heavy. I saw these grown homicide men,
many of them with former military, hugging Slice, holding her,
rocking her back and forth, feeding her treats and.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Then looking at the pictures right, and then looking at
the pictures.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yes, yes, And nobody left there upset. Nobody left there
like man, I was, you know, brought back to a
place I didn't want to go. It made me remember
the hardest case ever worked. All of them are like, okay, slie,
see you next time. You know, it was phenomenal, well good.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
And I do I do want to say that, you know,
I have certain rules, and I think I made it
clear that, like I don't distribute photos. They are real
life examples. That's how you know anything in a research article,
whether it's pathology or something else, it's you know, medicine.
We learned from experience. So all those pictures are made
(23:59):
of anonymous So like even anywhere that I show them,
no one's going to be able to say that's my brother, sister, mother, cousin.
You know, it's it's just focusing on the finding and
making it as anonymous as possible, and still still showing,
you know, the pertinent stuff. So that's really where it's at.
(24:21):
And even when I taught graduate school undergraduate you know residents,
I still teach them. I do not distribute any pictures.
There's always a what I call like an anonymous outline.
You can have my words because the words are mine
the day, you know, explain explanations, but never are the
photographs distributed, and that distributed. And if you recall, like
(24:44):
even at the autopsy of John O'Keefe, you know, even
when things are shown online or you know, through the media,
I think even something like court TV, all those you
know networks are very respect full and not showing autopsy photos.
I agree because that you know, and when it's a
(25:05):
known case, I eat, like this is the trial. You know,
John o'keef's death. We know who the decedent is and
it I mean, I can't even imagine how hard it
is for his family. We saw his mom there and
brothers and whatnot, like they know it's him even just
hearing the words, but to see it visually would be
very disturbing.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
They deserved it better. John o'keef deserved better. There's just
no question about it. Doctor Preadbantagy, I appreciate you and y'all.
She'll be back next Monday. We're going to talk about
some cases that are unusual, some fact find admissions she
was on, some conclusions that she came to that will
blow your mind. And then she'll weigh in occasionally on
(25:45):
some famous cases too. But you know, for the rookies
and the young detectives that are listening, I want to
tell you something. It is okay that there is somebody
smarter than you. You need to be grateful that there
are people out there smarter than you. Otherwise we have limits,
and I don't want to limit. I don't know what
(26:06):
doctor Pria's SAT score was, but I don't know either,
but I'm pretty sure it was higher than mine. So
I appreciate her willing to just share her genius and
her brilliance and her experience because I think we are
all going to benefit. So I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Well, thank you for having me. I love sharing, I
love talking about this stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Well, we'll see y'all next Monday. Own Pathology with dtor
Priya
I am so excited to bring y'all literally a genius.
I mean, I just don't even know how to call
her anything but a genius. It is Doctor pre of Banergy.
She is a BORED certified forensic pathologist. She did her
residency at the Johns Hopkins. She's an adjunct professor at
(00:32):
Boston University School of Medicine. She has performed over three
thousand autopsies. She has performed over one hundred and fifty
homicide autopsies. She's worked on high profile cases like Breonna Taylor.
She's done military cases and cases for the NSA. She
(00:54):
is a mother, a wife, a cat mom, and a
dog mom. And let me tell y'all, song you know
how you say you could always trust somebody who children
and animals trust. I witnessed this my self. We were
doing a training in North Carolina and there were a
(01:15):
group of puppies. This puppy chose Doctor Priya. It was instant,
it was solid. I've never seen anything like it. We
drove to the training together, and we drove home together
with that puppy because there was no way she could
leave her there. So y'all, we're going to just do
(01:37):
some pathology with doctor Pria. So doctor, welcome to Zone seven.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yes, thank you for having me. That's a very flattering introduction.
I'm smiling and a little embarrassed. I don't know, but yeah, everything,
Thank you for that kindness. And yes, I'm a proud
dog mom, multiple dog momple cat mom and slice right,
Slice and dice. Slice is the newest.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Puppy Slice and dice. And let me tell you you
have an exceptional child. And you know, we all went
on a safari, those of y'all that saw that on
social media, and they were all adults, all experts in
their field. And when I tell you, that child did
(02:25):
not miss a beat with any of them, polite, great conversation. Funny,
I'm like, how old is she? There's no way she's eleven.
But just a great time. And it wasn't like she
behaved for an hour. I spent day after day after
day after day with her in a car for twelve hours.
(02:47):
I know, had a lot of time, so it wasn't
like she was faking y'all.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
So now no, and actually the best part is, I
don't know if I told you, but we're going back.
She said her lifetime bucket list was to stay at
the Giraffe Hotel. So for her birthday and Christmas, and
I would say everything for the year. We're doing that.
In December, I got a reservation.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
That sounds so necessary. She just connected, right, I mean,
she loves animals. You can tell. There's no better birthday.
So that's awesome. There you go, all right, So we're
going to jump into this pathologies with doctor Priya. One
thing that I think is so important, and the thing
(03:30):
that I think I love most about law enforcement is
the teamwork. And you get it from all sides. You
get it from a lot of different places. You get
it from prosecutors and other investigators and detectives, from other
departments and divisions and agencies. But one that is often
overlooked is that camaraderie and that teamwork from the medical examiner.
(03:56):
And I know you and I talked about this, but
I'm going to just toss it right to you and
not wait another second. John O'Keeffe, if he had been
your patient, if you had received that body, walk me
through what you would have done step by step.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Sure, And I think you know you got to sort
of understand. I want to talk about my approach to
autopsies and you know, I'm not that far from the case, right.
I'm in Rhode Island. That's where I practiced over eleven years.
I am in private practice now I don't work for
the state anymore, but I have a lengthy, you know
tenure with the state and the practice is there, so
(04:39):
you know, I used to go to crime scenes and
intimately work with crime scene and homicide detectives. And you know,
at the scenes here it's a small enough state with
multiple jurisdictions. Sometimes even the police she would show up,
you know, definitely the ags. We have attorney generals here,
district attorneys whatever, you know, they're called in their respective jurisdictions.
(05:02):
But it was sort of all boots on the ground
when it was a you know, suspicious death. I didn't
go to every death, but my very well trained investigators did.
But when necessary, I was called, you know, when being
on call. So it's twenty four to seven for at
least a week at a time. You know, I've I've
(05:25):
lost counted how many scenes I went to. And given
that I'm in New England right next door to Massachusetts,
detum Or Canton, I think was only a forty five
minute drive from me, I've testified in the same courtroom
actually with the same judge before, right before the trial started.
In fact, I had another case so unrelated, but exactly
(05:47):
that courtroom with Judge Canoni. So nonetheless, like you have
to look at it in context. What I like to
say is, you know, I actually like crime scene visits,
crime scene work, if you will, because you really get
a sense of what's going on, what's known and what's unknown. Right,
(06:09):
so you're you're right there.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I think nothing takes the place, Nothing.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Takes the place, And you know, obviously we can't be
there at all times, which is why we have amazing
investigators that take detailed reports and report back in the photos.
But you know, I think the biggest thing I always
tell people is I look at the world in a
very different way, sort of effect of my work, you know, like,
(06:33):
and I'm sure you do too. It's like we don't
just walk through the world not noticing what's around us,
what's out of place, what's different. Oh, you know, if
you walked into my house today, everything's a mess because
I had construction going on, you know, so that it's
immediately telling that there's painters tape, and you know, things
are out of sorts. Well, why because there's construction, Like
(06:56):
you know what that means, and that should be a clue.
There's people, Well you know that means there are other
people in the house, right, like normal people that aren't
here are here because construction's going. So then you have
to account for those people. Does that make sense? Like
that automatically leads you down that pathway And so if
we come back to John O'Keefe, what you have to
(07:17):
think about is it's terrible weather, very inexperienced staff, inexperienced
or poorly trained or whatever it is, right, Like, I
don't know if I'm making excuses or the right excuses,
but we know the investigation was poorly handled, right and
(07:38):
I I what really makes me mad is that they
could drive back from a bar in the snow, but
they couldn't go a mile to the police station to
get evidence containers. Right, So it's like, obviously there's sloppy
handling of the scene. But you know, we've all been
in scenes that are less than ideal. I mean I've
had to get into swampy water, use an eight TV
(08:00):
to go into forested areas. Like there's just not you know,
we always joke, right, the crime see never has any lighting.
It's always at dark, it's always in the mud, it's
always in the rain or the snow, always, like it's
Murphy's law. And so that's fine. Like even if it's
the worst case scenario like a snowstorm, they should have
(08:20):
secured the scene. You can revisit it in the daylight, right,
Like you don't have to gather everything, but you make
a barrier, you secure it. And maybe I'm overstepping a
little because that's not my job, right, I mean, we
work collaboratively at the scene, and I would say, hey,
I'm gonna grab the body, photograph it in place, and
(08:40):
then let's put markers so I can come back tomorrow
in the daylight and we can do more searching, right, Like, honestly,
things were frozen in place, right given the nature of
the weather, so it's not going anywhere. You actually sort
of can just barricade it off and have a police car,
(09:01):
you know, guard it overnight and then when it's better
lit and maybe the storm has passed. You know, that
would really be the next best step. So you know,
I've been in situations where it's the first homicide in
ten twenty years in a particular jurisdiction, and they're looking
to me to say what to do, and I'm like, whoa, whoa.
(09:23):
I'm not a detective. I'm here to help you, but
I can't tell you how to do your investigation. I
can make suggestions, right and legally, you know, they don't
have to listen to me because I'm not the one
running the investigation. I'm only responsible for the body at
the scene, like you know, the medical examiner, uh investigator
and myself. If we're at a scene, that's what the
(09:45):
responsibility was. And so you know, of course that's photographed
and examined, but then we whisk the body away and
go from there. Obviously there's so many details about the
body that needed to be examined, and you know, notably
in Massachusetts, the EMMY or you know, that staff doesn't
(10:08):
go to the scene, and mister O'Keeffe, if I remember correctly,
went to the hospital, So there wasn't really what's the
condition of the body at the scene, you know. Nonetheless,
that's where I would start, right like is he dressed appropriately?
You know, does he show any frost bite? Right? Being
in that condition? You know, what trauma is there? We
(10:32):
would X ray him. If I don't know what's going on,
I would have probably gotten fingernail clippings and pulled head
hair just because I'm paranoid. And let's just pull that
trace evidence, collect all his clothes, you know, let's see
what this is about, and document that I think it
was at least one shoe wasn't there, right, So it's
(10:55):
important to know what's there, but what's not there and
relay that information back to police, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And doctor Priya. If I could just be real clear
for everybody, just in case they don't know. When I
work a crime scene, that crime scene belongs to me,
but that body belongs to doctor Priya. So I just
want everybody to understand it. It goes to the medical examiner.
It doesn't I don't process the body in any way.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Right, And I mean, you know, we can have a
collaborative effort in the autopsy suite once the body is
brought back, like I would take evidence and then submit
it to you for further test, you know, submission for testing.
And again that's better done in a controlled situation like
an autopsy suite. Right in the blizzard. I'm not gonna
(11:47):
take fingernail clippings that makes no sense. And it may
be that even I don't you know, I whisked the
body away and then examine it back at the office,
you know, because the conditions are so bad. But it
seemed like there are huge gaps in the thought process
when they handled the case overall. I actually, you know,
(12:11):
truly do believe that the autopsy was done well. You know,
I listened to the testimony of the doctor, the doctors
on the first trial, and the doctor, uh, the primary
pathologist on the second trial. So you know, we've been
through it sort of twice, and I think, you know,
I fall given what we know and don't know, I
(12:34):
actually concur with the conclusions that were made. You just
can't tell undetermined, you know, undetermined, undetermined manner. Now you
know the cause, if you will, of death. So there's
the cause of death and the manner of death. Cause
of death is why did he die? Well, he had
head trauma, right, that killed him, blunt head trauma. Now
(12:54):
we don't know under which circumstances, whether it was a
car strike or a slip and fall or something else. Right,
So that's why the manner is undetermined. We don't know
if it's an accident homicide whatever. But that's okay, I
mean you have to you know, we're not omniscient, We're
this is not TV, and so we can only say
(13:15):
what is defendable in court, right and obviously this case,
you know, exemplifies that that it Every little word you
write is going to be examined and torn apart in court.
And so I think her testimony was excellent, Doctor Sporty Bellow.
I think the autopsy was thorough. But that really shows
(13:35):
you that it's one part of the puzzle, not the
entire puzzle. You can't just rely on the me too.
There's only the Emmy's going to fix a bad investigation
or a lack thereof or a lack of interviewing, you know,
witnesses or ring cameras or whatever was or was not done.
And so that this case really highlights that is, you know,
(13:58):
they wanted to sort of, I don't know, it seemed
like they wanted the Emmy to come and be the
super woman and say, Ahi, I have all the answers
and we know that's not how it works.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Well, you know, one thing that I think is crucial
about the autopsy is the family of the victim. They're
going to get answers, whether it's the answer they want
it or not. But having the truth, having facts, being
able to show somebody this is his a order. You
(14:32):
can see it severed. I mean that you're just gently explaining. Well,
that allows them to have some acceptance, which gives them peace,
which means they can move forward. So when you to
me as a detective, not only are going to dismiss
the medical examiner, but you're going to call her names,
(14:54):
and then you're just going to go in another direction
completely opposite of what she sees, what she's notated, and
what she has explained.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Sure, and really that's communication is really a huge part
of the game. You know, I don't want to say game,
but you know, the actual role that you play. So
whether it comes down to communicating with a family or
communicating to the court, or communicating to detectives, you have
(15:24):
different audiences, if you will, but you're still communicating, you know.
So if I just read you the medical blah blah
blah from the report, no one's gonna understand that everybody
can read a piece of paper. You have to really
help interpret that. And it's interesting you say that because
you know that we're on this because That's really what.
After I transitioned away from my state job because my
(15:45):
mom was critically ill during COVID, I got multiple calls
from families crying on the phone, please do private autopsy.
I don't know why my loved one died. And during COVID,
you know, there was a lot of restrictions on autops
and what the offices could and could not examine or handle,
and procedures changed all throughout. And that, you know, after
(16:09):
I got three calls in one week, I sort of
took it as a signal from above, you know that
maybe I should start doing this. And really, the most
common customer I have are families. It's not lawyers that
want to sue. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like,
that's a minority of cases, and I spend a lot
(16:30):
of time counseling. I probably turned away fifty percent of
my cases because, you know, whether it be the CSI
effect from TV or you know, crime shows, whatever, families
think that we can just tell everything from the autopsy.
So I'm always talking to them. I probably spend half
an hour just you know, asking questions, saying, what do
(16:51):
you want from this autopsy? What is the question to
be answered. What are you know? What is your what
do you want out of this exam from me? I
need to be able to serve a purpose, to really
cut into someone's body, right, I mean, it's still a
very invasive medical procedure. That's why I get permission from
the family, right, I get written permission. Yes, you can
(17:12):
proceed with this. And but you know, once you do,
like what I think is a thorough screening, and you say, look,
I can't tell you you know, did COVID happen first,
or the heart attack happened first, or you know, was
it the cancer or COVID kill him? You know, like
because they're both there. You know, did the pneumonia come
(17:34):
from the lung cancer or COVID? I don't know, right,
because they both affect the lung. You know, sometimes I
can't be more specific, but I can say these are
both really bad, and they're like, ohh okay, like you
know that, Yeah, he was really suffering with the lung
cancer and his immune system was weak and that's why
he got COVID and died. Like, I think that completes
(17:55):
the circle, just as an example, and that's what I mean.
You know, we're not talking about malpractice. We're just talking
about closure, and really that's what they're paying for. And
you know, I hate to say it, there's a almost
like a psychotherapy component to it, right, Like once you
get the autopsy results, like I make it a point
(18:15):
to call my families right after the autopsy. Hey, I
did the autopsy. The body's are going to be released.
These are my findings. Now they're not in a report yet.
That's going to take me time. And if I'm sending
slides or whatnot for more diagnoses, like I can tell
them that you know that this is still in the works.
I don't have all the answers, but you know, there
was times when I found a heart attack, I found
(18:37):
a stroke, I found undiagnosed cancer, and it you know
it almost I hate to say it makes me feel
good to share something when I have that aha.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Moment, and sometimes things can be missed if you're not
given all the information. Let me tell you a true story.
I have a friend, definitely not one of my sisters.
But when Sheila goes to the doctor and he's like,
(19:07):
how you doing, how you feeling great? I feel wonderful,
no problems, nothing at all is wrong. She almost believes
if there's something wrong, he'll find it. But she doesn't
want to complain about, oh my hand feels a little weak,
or I've got tingling in my feed or my vision
is blurry sometimes, like she doesn't want to give him
(19:28):
any roadmap to something wrong.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And that's hard, you know, it is hard because handicapped exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
And my sisters, you know, and my sisters that are
nurses are like, Sheila, you've got a telling that your
side has been hurting for two months.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Because we're not going to see that, right, like right,
And you know, obviously, when I'm dealing with an autopsy,
I asked what state were they in six months ago,
three months ago? When's the last time to take their doctor? Oh?
I've gotten you know, I mean, I think we live,
you know, we do with the Lake community. We deal
with people from all walks of life. Right, And you say,
(20:05):
does he have any medical history? No? Did he take
any medicines? Oh? Yes? And then you're like, oh, well
that's for diabetes, Oh, that's for hypertension, that's for cholesterol.
I'm like, oh my, we have a whole litany of
things going on, even though they don't, you know, so
just digging around but if you don't tell me that information,
I'm not going to be able to find it. And
(20:26):
if he was having I don't know, some sort of tingling,
that's not in the autopsy, right, that's when he was alive,
And so you can't, you know, you try to get
as much information as you can and then go forward.
But I think, you know, I look at it the
autopsy as not just a medical procedure, but like, especially
(20:47):
in my business, like a customer service, does that make sense?
Like I am hired by the family to answer questions
for them, and at that point, it's not just finding data,
but it's also communicating it back to them in an
understandable way. If I tell them, oh, he had a
you know, a rhythmia, this kind of a rhythmia, or
(21:12):
you know, this kind of heart attack that's exactly you know,
eight hours old, they're gonna be like, what you know?
But if I just say he had a heart attack
and then his heart stop beating, they'll be like, oh, okay,
you know. I mean, so you have to make it
understandable as well, And so that's what gives the closure,
you know. And I think when we look at any case,
(21:32):
whether it's personal, you know, whether it's just a family
not just someone's family member died, or something high profile,
which is the other end of the spectrum, like John O'Keefe.
Everybody's just looking for closure. What happened? Right that that's
the big what happened? Why did this happen? And sometimes
that's much easier to determine at the autopsy, and sometimes
(21:56):
it's not right, like in John O'Keefe's case, what has
and was in the sense of the injuries are there, right,
those are easy to document. It's how did this happen?
That was left up to the investigation. And no matter
how many special test X rays specialists look at the
brain the body, we're not going to be able to
tell them more than what was there.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Well, I want to tell everybody that you came to
Atlanta and you did a law enforcement training for me
that was lights out. I mean it was incredible. But
you did two things. One right off the bat, y'all,
she gave respect and honor to every person we were
(22:42):
about to see on a slide. She made sure everybody
understood this is somebody's loved one and they have given
a very private part of themselves so that law enforcement
can be better at their job. And the second thing
you did, you brought slies with you.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I did. I did, yes, because you know, I think
it's heavy, right.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It's heavy, it's heavy. I saw these grown homicide men,
many of them with former military, hugging Slice, holding her,
rocking her back and forth, feeding her treats and.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Then looking at the pictures right, and then looking at
the pictures.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yes, yes, And nobody left there upset. Nobody left there
like man, I was, you know, brought back to a
place I didn't want to go. It made me remember
the hardest case ever worked. All of them are like, okay, slie,
see you next time. You know, it was phenomenal, well good.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
And I do I do want to say that, you know,
I have certain rules, and I think I made it
clear that, like I don't distribute photos. They are real
life examples. That's how you know anything in a research article,
whether it's pathology or something else, it's you know, medicine.
We learned from experience. So all those pictures are made
(23:59):
of anonymous So like even anywhere that I show them,
no one's going to be able to say that's my brother, sister, mother, cousin.
You know, it's it's just focusing on the finding and
making it as anonymous as possible, and still still showing,
you know, the pertinent stuff. So that's really where it's at.
(24:21):
And even when I taught graduate school undergraduate you know residents,
I still teach them. I do not distribute any pictures.
There's always a what I call like an anonymous outline.
You can have my words because the words are mine
the day, you know, explain explanations, but never are the
photographs distributed, and that distributed. And if you recall, like
(24:44):
even at the autopsy of John O'Keefe, you know, even
when things are shown online or you know, through the media,
I think even something like court TV, all those you
know networks are very respect full and not showing autopsy photos.
I agree because that you know, and when it's a
(25:05):
known case, I eat, like this is the trial. You know,
John o'keef's death. We know who the decedent is and
it I mean, I can't even imagine how hard it
is for his family. We saw his mom there and
brothers and whatnot, like they know it's him even just
hearing the words, but to see it visually would be
very disturbing.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
They deserved it better. John o'keef deserved better. There's just
no question about it. Doctor Preadbantagy, I appreciate you and y'all.
She'll be back next Monday. We're going to talk about
some cases that are unusual, some fact find admissions she
was on, some conclusions that she came to that will
blow your mind. And then she'll weigh in occasionally on
(25:45):
some famous cases too. But you know, for the rookies
and the young detectives that are listening, I want to
tell you something. It is okay that there is somebody
smarter than you. You need to be grateful that there
are people out there smarter than you. Otherwise we have limits,
and I don't want to limit. I don't know what
(26:06):
doctor Pria's SAT score was, but I don't know either,
but I'm pretty sure it was higher than mine. So
I appreciate her willing to just share her genius and
her brilliance and her experience because I think we are
all going to benefit. So I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Well, thank you for having me. I love sharing, I
love talking about this stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Well, we'll see y'all next Monday. Own Pathology with dtor
Priya
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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