September 2, 2025 • 19 mins
Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of a recent school shooting involving children, including descriptions of trauma, autopsy procedures, and emotional reactions. Listener discretion is advised.
In this episode, Dr. Priya Banerjee and Sheryl McCollum respond to the devastating school shooting in Minneapolis that claimed the lives of two young students and injured many others. Speaking as both a forensic pathologist and a mother, Dr. Priya walks through the real-time impact of mass shootings, from the chaos at the scene to the procedures carried out in the morgue. She explains how that space becomes a place of both science and sorrow, and why every wound, detail, and decision plays a role in honoring the victims and supporting their families.
Highlights
- (0:00) Sheryl McCollum and Dr. Priya open the episode with initial reactions to the Minneapolis school shooting
- (1:30) Dr. Priya reflects on the events of that day through the eyes of both a mother and a doctor
- (4:00) Chaos, triage, and the painful task of confirming a child's identity
- (7:00) Why autopsies matter, even when there's no case to prosecute
- (8:00) Supporting survivors while documenting a chaotic, still-active crime scene
- (9:30) How emergency contact forms and school records aid in identifying victims
- (10:45) The external exam: wounds, measurements, and heartbreaking details
- (12:45) Photographing and documenting every wound in detail
- (14:15) Motherhood and the job: how parenting reshaped their work, their lens, and their limits
- (18:45) Sheryl and Dr. Priya close the episode with final thoughts on responsibility and resilience
About the Hosts
Dr. Priya Banerjee is a board-certified forensic pathologist with extensive experience in death investigation, clinical forensics, and courtroom testimony. A graduate of Johns Hopkins, she served for over a decade as Rhode Island’s state medical examiner and now runs a private forensic pathology practice. Her work includes military deaths, NSA cases, and high-profile investigations. Dr. Priya has also been featured as a forensic expert on platforms such as CrimeOnline and Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She is a dedicated educator, animal lover, and proud mom.
Website: anchorforensicpathology.com
Twitter/X: @Autopsy_MD
Sheryl McCollum is an Emmy Award–winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, and the Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She works as a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department and is the co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute (CCIRI), a nationally recognized nonprofit that brings together universities, law enforcement, and experts to help solve unsolved homicides, missing persons cases, and kidnappings.
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Twitter/X: @ColdCaseTips
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
📣 If this episode resonated with you, please follow the show, share it with someone, and consider leaving us a review. Your support helps others discover the science, stories, and heart behind Pathology with Dr. Priya | A Zone 7 Series.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
At approximately eight thirty Wednesday, August twenty seventh, in Minneapolis,
a shooter open fire at children sitting in church pews
during worship service at their school. Two children were killed
and eighteen others were injured. The killer, Robin Westman, twenty three,
(00:30):
died of a self inflicted gunshot wound on sen He
had attended the same school as a child. He was
armed with an AR fifteen, a twelve gate shotgun, and
a nine millimeter handgun. The two murder victims were Fletcher Rkle,
age eight, and Harper Moyski, aged ten. Police recovered one
(00:56):
live round from the handgun, most likely malfunctioned, three shotgun shells,
and one hundred and sixteen rifle rounds.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This nightmare didn't end at the school. For the parents
of Fletcher and Harper, they had to go to the Morgue,
Doctor Priabanergy, I'm going to turn it right over to
you because one thing people I don't think realize in
the aftermath are the levels that occur, the system that's
(01:30):
in place, the things people have to do, and then
how it affects you.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm out a little bit out of a loss for words,
which is a rarity but Wednesday was a very emotional
day for me, as it was my birthday, it was
my daughter's first day back to school, and she's eleven.
She goes to a Catholic school. I don't think you
can draw more parallels except you know, we were blessed
(02:02):
that there was no incident at our school. Here I
can't say the same. You know, there's no words for me.
There's no medical training that prepares you to speak about
this kind of tragedy. So if my words seem ill
fitting or not flowing as well, it's because of that.
(02:24):
All day, all I wanted to do was run to
my daughter's.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
School and make sure she was okay.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
They're not allowed to have cell phones or anything, so
I couldn't text her. But that was an irrational response, right.
That's not the medical examiner side of me talking. That
is the mom side of me talking. All I wanted
to do was run. And her school starts at eight,
so eight thirty wasn't that far off, and it's a
(02:52):
big transition year for her going to middle school. And
all I could think about is I wish I could
just go hug my daughter and make sure she's okay,
And the whole day instead of sort of celebrating and relaxing,
which is what I was supposed to do. I sort
of had this edge on me. And it wasn't until
she came home and as a mom, a doctor, a human,
(03:14):
you know, I don't know how else to qualify it,
but nothing but the most sincere condolences, you know, of
the biggest loss of their lives for these two families.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I mean, it hits you at every level.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Every level. And the other thing that I always say.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Professionally, I'm going to put my professional hat on now
because I can never really reconcile this tragic loss of
life for kids. So there's nothing I can say in
two hours, five hours a year that will cover that loss.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
But when I put my I leave, my mom had
a side and sort of switched to the professional side.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
You know, it's utter chaos.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
They don't know who these children are at first, right,
there's I mean, you can imagine the scenes and you
could probably talk about it too. One hundred and sixteen rounds.
I mean, there's so many. It's you know, there's one
crime scene if you will, but I'm sure it's multiple
rooms in the school outside inside, like you know, the chaos.
(04:21):
That's their evidence is probably getting shifted around just by
the movement of the people. And I actually I want
to step back.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I think I had.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Heard there was eighteen that were injured, so that doesn't
I mean, thank god that they are alive, but I
don't know the extent of their injuries. And let's not
forget about the mental toll. We're talking about physical injuries,
but every single child, every single teacher in that school
will not see life the same, you know. And the
(04:54):
guts it takes for parents of surviving children to send
their school you know, kid to school the next day
or the week after is beyond me in any case,
like looking at it as a crime scene, and then
the bodies, I mean, eighteen people have to be taken
to the hospital. I'm not an er doc, but just
imagine the volume, you know, it's flooding the er, right,
(05:15):
They're not always ready for this many patients. Luckily, Minneapolis
is a big metropolis, so they should have you know,
at least one level one trauma center to deal with
the injuries. And then those patients are going to be triaged.
Who's critical going to need to go to the surgery?
I mean, you can imagine the domino it effect it
has on the living people and the you know, doctors,
(05:40):
my colleagues in the er and surgeons who are taking
care of them, flipping to.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
The met office.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
I mean, really, what happens is, you know, grabbing the
bodies of the two children, making sure they're secure, and
then the real work starts, you know, at the autopsy. Right,
it's do we even know who these children are? Usually,
like my daughter's uniform doesn't have her name on it
(06:08):
or anything, It just has the school name. So you know,
you have to get someone reliable to id these. You know,
before you can call the parents in and say your
child has been murdered, you have to know who they are.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So there's you know, we call that.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
We sometimes have them as a tentative or unknown child.
You know they'll be not that they're gonna be unknown permanently,
but we have to treat their ideas unknown at that
immediate chaotic moment that they're pronounced dead and then being
taken to the morgue.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And then you know, these are homicides, and.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I think I want to step back and just look
at the global picture. Well, we know that the shooter
is dead as well, and I think many might ask,
what's the purpose of doing autopsies on two murdered children
when we know who the shooter was and the shooter's dead,
so there's no potential prosecution. But it is our due diligence,
(07:06):
like why would you work that crime scene and collect
all that evidence if we know sort of what happened?
You know that so it can go. I'd like you
to talk about that as well. But from my perspective,
any homicide needs to have an autopsy. We treat it
no different as a as a medical examiner. We don't
(07:29):
really look at what's going to be the legal outcome.
Does that make sense? We don't say is this going
to go to court? Is this not going to go
to court? That's not how we triage cases or or
you know, define what needs a very detailed workup. Any
homicide gets the full work up, and whether it goes
(07:50):
to court, whether there's a plea deal, or whether it's
a closed case. You know, because the shooter is dead,
that's not our jurisdiction, that's not our judgment.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Well, I know, for me, you mentioned the word chaos,
and you're absolutely right, But at that moment, even though
you have an adult person dead on scene with magazines
and firearms near them. We don't know if there's a
second shooter. We don't know whether or not he had help.
So even though it is chaotic, there's some things we
(08:21):
absolutely know to do, and that is get the victims
to you.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I think first and foremost it's take care of any
living oh.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Right, yes, yes, yes, of course. But I'm saying if
I know I've got a you know, a murdered victim,
I know they go to you so that I don't
have to think about yes.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Right, And so that's the thing. It's, you know, it's
maybe a dual pronged approach.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
If you will get the living injured to the er,
get the you know, tragically murdered kids in this case
to the morgue, and like really, then.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
The other evidence is static.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Right, you can take hours to process the you can't
really work around you know, having the bodies there, having
injured victims there. That really complicates your work, probably even more.
You know, I've done a lot of crime scene work
myself when there's murdered victim or victims at the scene,
(09:19):
and really the police just you know, it's a dual
pronged approach where we are there photographing the victim at
the scene, but then after that, let's you know, bag
them and roll, you know, roll out of here. And
then once we're in the autopsy suite, you know, what
we're doing is we're X raying the bodies. We're trying
(09:39):
to my investigators are now working on identifying these kids.
You know, maybe at the scene we can get a
lead on a name, but think about it, kids aren't
going to have fingerprints in the system, right or a
driver's license or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So we're really working with basic you know who is this?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Is there a school administrator, a school fo kodos that
can help us get a lead. And you know what
did I do Tuesday night? I filled out an emergency
contact card for my daughter.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
When she started school Wednesday.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
So I hate to say it, that's going to come
into play because once we know that, you know, that's
how you contact the parents.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
And the reality is you've got parents rushing to that school,
and you've got two parents that are not being met
up with their child.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And I hate to say, you don't want to be
left in that, you know, process of elimination, because then
we know the horrible ending, you know, And I.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Was like, who do I put on this card?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Right?
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Oh my god, They're having me fill this out year
after year. Why everybody knows me? Everybody knows dia. But
this is why we do it, right, the emergency contact
the kids' allergies. I mean, it may come that the
parents aren't able to contact the I'm talking about the
living individuals, right, but sometimes the kids might not know
(10:59):
what they're They're so young, they might not know what
they're allergic to. But that information can be provided to
treating physicians. Think about it, wounds, meat, antibiotics and stuff
like that. So even that like medical history you give
to the school can come into play.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
For the living kids and you know staff.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
So what happens is, yeah, we'll start from like coming
through the door of the morgue. We're gonna first anytime
there's trauma, we're gonna get X.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Rays, full body x rays.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
And then what we're gonna do is, really this is
a homicide, So there's gonna be trace evidence. I mean,
if they've been shot, I don't know, if there's shrapnel
like on their body, We're gonna bag their clothes. We're
gonna clip their fingernails for any DNA. Potentially, we take
(11:50):
full sets of fingerprints for every homicide victim, you know,
document all their clothing and heartbreaking it's probably a school
uniform given that it's a Catholic school. And then we're
going to do the same thing we talked about in
episodes past, right, it's a very systematic approach. Now in
(12:10):
this case, the external is even more complex because there
are injuries. Okay, and by injuries I mean gunshot wounds.
And let me step back though, you know, you don't
want to just go back and sort of look at
the obvious, like the gunshot wounds. You know, I don't
know if these kids were crawling or they fell or
(12:32):
anything in the process of being shot. It's a horrible
way to think about it. But they can sustain other
injuries other than gunshot wounds too, right in the process
of the of the chaos. And so I always say that,
you know, I testify in court it's my job to
document every nick and scratch on the body. Doesn't mean
(12:54):
that that's a lethal injury, but that's still an injury.
So the external is very thoroughly done basically with a
you know, very systematic approach very uh, you know, head
to toe, like I told you, I always do, then
the right side of the body, the left side of
(13:15):
the body, and then the back of the body.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
But every time we're doing this, we're looking for.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
A bruise, a cut, any external materials they're broken glass, metal,
you know, anything that was shot through that kind of
fiber evidence. And then then what we're doing is once
the body is undressed, taking photos of every single gunshot wound.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
There I take at least three.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Photos per gunshot wound, like a distant one, a medium range,
and then a close up. Then each of these gunshot wounds,
we measure from the top of the head and right
and left of midline, so we can you're giving coordinates
if you will, on the body to exactly place where
(14:01):
these are located. And remember these are children, so like
the measurements are.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Going to be smaller, you know what I mean. And
that's what is really heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Well, let me ask you something, because you mentioned something
a couple of times and it's the most accurate thing
ever in a situation like this, I used to be
able to work cases, move on, come home, not think
about them, and then I had a child. I'm going
(14:36):
to tell you something. The first child case I worked
after that, I was pitiful.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah, it just.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Something happens, right, I mean all those switches, like I'm
reprogrammed in a way, you are reprogrammed, and you can't
stop it. You can't help it, you can't see it
the same as you used to. You can't be just
detached anymore. It's like I have two grown children, they're
both in their twenties. I can be at a grocery
(15:07):
store and hear a little child say Mama, and I'm turning.
I'm turning around.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Who needs me?
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I know it ain't my child. I don't have a
little one, but I am, just as you say, programmed,
who needs me? And the idea that I am running
to a school where I cannot find my child, and
then I've got to drive to a mord to identify them,
only to learn exactly what happened in such a horrific manner.
(15:41):
I'm gonna tell you I don't like to go pick
up evidence at a MORD. I will pull in the
parking lot, i will survey are there any personal cars here?
If it's all police cars and medical examiners cars, I'll
go straight in. Yeah, But if I say a bunch
of personal cars, I'm a wait a minute, because I
(16:03):
know what's happening inside there. And one, I think they
need all the privacy in the world. And number two,
if I see it or hear it, I can't forget it.
So for you, you not only have to work this crime,
you have to deal with the parents on a level
that most people won't ever have to deal with them.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
So that is, yeah, I can. It's a very loaded,
you know response for me as a mom. So I
went back to work at eight weeks after having my
daughter and probably so three months so when she was
an infant three months of age or four months of age.
I had my first infant autopsy after coming back from
(16:48):
maternity leave and pregnancy leave, and they actually and my
chief definitely stepped up and said are you okay to
do this? And I remember thinking that is she was
a woman who also was a mom, and that was
a very sensitive like question, and I said, yeah, I am,
you know, And I think first of all, it was
good for me to be back at work wearing that hat, right,
(17:10):
And for me, I always treat children. I'm pretty obsessive.
I mean, I'm pretty obsessive about a lot of things,
but type A as people like to say. But I
got called hawkeye in my fellowship because I would pick
up and subtle details. And I think that is the
(17:33):
level of analysis I bring to any child death, you know.
So being a mom, I think gives me more ownership
and be like, Okay, I got to do a damn
good job, you know, like there's no message around, and
I think that's what allows me to push forward, okay,
(17:54):
because if you get lost in emotion and I and
I do learn to come part mentalize, right, Like that's
the whole point. Just like they say, you don't treat
your loved ones if you're a surgeon or a doctor,
because you can't remove yourself emotionally. You don't autopsy anybody,
you know, because it becomes emotional. You know, you can't compartmentalize.
(18:18):
But when I have to put my doctor hat on,
especially God, I can't even imagine in a tragedy like this.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
It's on.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
It's on, like uh you know for those some listening
on like Donkey Kong, it is. You know, we are
working and we are not messing around. And that's how
I look at it, because I owe these parents every
answer I owe this child. I'm the last doctor this
child is seeing and you know, God help me, it
(18:48):
is going to be a detailed report. I'm not missing anything.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Awesome, Doctor Prea. Thank you for your service, thank you
for this information today, and thank you. Thank you were
just being who you are. You were a friend of everybody.
And you know, I know this case hits you different.
We talked several days ago. Uh we even talked this morning,
so I know what this case means to you. So
(19:16):
I just appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I'm gonna go hug my daughter right now. Amen.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
You know that's all you can do, and you know,
be put some good into the world to fight this evil.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
No one deserves it.
At approximately eight thirty Wednesday, August twenty seventh, in Minneapolis,
a shooter open fire at children sitting in church pews
during worship service at their school. Two children were killed
and eighteen others were injured. The killer, Robin Westman, twenty three,
(00:30):
died of a self inflicted gunshot wound on sen He
had attended the same school as a child. He was
armed with an AR fifteen, a twelve gate shotgun, and
a nine millimeter handgun. The two murder victims were Fletcher Rkle,
age eight, and Harper Moyski, aged ten. Police recovered one
(00:56):
live round from the handgun, most likely malfunctioned, three shotgun shells,
and one hundred and sixteen rifle rounds.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This nightmare didn't end at the school. For the parents
of Fletcher and Harper, they had to go to the Morgue,
Doctor Priabanergy, I'm going to turn it right over to
you because one thing people I don't think realize in
the aftermath are the levels that occur, the system that's
(01:30):
in place, the things people have to do, and then
how it affects you.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm out a little bit out of a loss for words,
which is a rarity but Wednesday was a very emotional
day for me, as it was my birthday, it was
my daughter's first day back to school, and she's eleven.
She goes to a Catholic school. I don't think you
can draw more parallels except you know, we were blessed
(02:02):
that there was no incident at our school. Here I
can't say the same. You know, there's no words for me.
There's no medical training that prepares you to speak about
this kind of tragedy. So if my words seem ill
fitting or not flowing as well, it's because of that.
(02:24):
All day, all I wanted to do was run to
my daughter's.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
School and make sure she was okay.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
They're not allowed to have cell phones or anything, so
I couldn't text her. But that was an irrational response, right.
That's not the medical examiner side of me talking. That
is the mom side of me talking. All I wanted
to do was run. And her school starts at eight,
so eight thirty wasn't that far off, and it's a
(02:52):
big transition year for her going to middle school. And
all I could think about is I wish I could
just go hug my daughter and make sure she's okay,
And the whole day instead of sort of celebrating and relaxing,
which is what I was supposed to do. I sort
of had this edge on me. And it wasn't until
she came home and as a mom, a doctor, a human,
(03:14):
you know, I don't know how else to qualify it,
but nothing but the most sincere condolences, you know, of
the biggest loss of their lives for these two families.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I mean, it hits you at every level.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Every level. And the other thing that I always say.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Professionally, I'm going to put my professional hat on now
because I can never really reconcile this tragic loss of
life for kids. So there's nothing I can say in
two hours, five hours a year that will cover that loss.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
But when I put my I leave, my mom had
a side and sort of switched to the professional side.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
You know, it's utter chaos.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
They don't know who these children are at first, right,
there's I mean, you can imagine the scenes and you
could probably talk about it too. One hundred and sixteen rounds.
I mean, there's so many. It's you know, there's one
crime scene if you will, but I'm sure it's multiple
rooms in the school outside inside, like you know, the chaos.
(04:21):
That's their evidence is probably getting shifted around just by
the movement of the people. And I actually I want
to step back.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I think I had.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Heard there was eighteen that were injured, so that doesn't
I mean, thank god that they are alive, but I
don't know the extent of their injuries. And let's not
forget about the mental toll. We're talking about physical injuries,
but every single child, every single teacher in that school
will not see life the same, you know. And the
(04:54):
guts it takes for parents of surviving children to send
their school you know, kid to school the next day
or the week after is beyond me in any case,
like looking at it as a crime scene, and then
the bodies, I mean, eighteen people have to be taken
to the hospital. I'm not an er doc, but just
imagine the volume, you know, it's flooding the er, right,
(05:15):
They're not always ready for this many patients. Luckily, Minneapolis
is a big metropolis, so they should have you know,
at least one level one trauma center to deal with
the injuries. And then those patients are going to be triaged.
Who's critical going to need to go to the surgery?
I mean, you can imagine the domino it effect it
has on the living people and the you know, doctors,
(05:40):
my colleagues in the er and surgeons who are taking
care of them, flipping to.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
The met office.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
I mean, really, what happens is, you know, grabbing the
bodies of the two children, making sure they're secure, and
then the real work starts, you know, at the autopsy. Right,
it's do we even know who these children are? Usually,
like my daughter's uniform doesn't have her name on it
(06:08):
or anything, It just has the school name. So you know,
you have to get someone reliable to id these. You know,
before you can call the parents in and say your
child has been murdered, you have to know who they are.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So there's you know, we call that.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
We sometimes have them as a tentative or unknown child.
You know they'll be not that they're gonna be unknown permanently,
but we have to treat their ideas unknown at that
immediate chaotic moment that they're pronounced dead and then being
taken to the morgue.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And then you know, these are homicides, and.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I think I want to step back and just look
at the global picture. Well, we know that the shooter
is dead as well, and I think many might ask,
what's the purpose of doing autopsies on two murdered children
when we know who the shooter was and the shooter's dead,
so there's no potential prosecution. But it is our due diligence,
(07:06):
like why would you work that crime scene and collect
all that evidence if we know sort of what happened?
You know that so it can go. I'd like you
to talk about that as well. But from my perspective,
any homicide needs to have an autopsy. We treat it
no different as a as a medical examiner. We don't
(07:29):
really look at what's going to be the legal outcome.
Does that make sense? We don't say is this going
to go to court? Is this not going to go
to court? That's not how we triage cases or or
you know, define what needs a very detailed workup. Any
homicide gets the full work up, and whether it goes
(07:50):
to court, whether there's a plea deal, or whether it's
a closed case. You know, because the shooter is dead,
that's not our jurisdiction, that's not our judgment.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Well, I know, for me, you mentioned the word chaos,
and you're absolutely right, But at that moment, even though
you have an adult person dead on scene with magazines
and firearms near them. We don't know if there's a
second shooter. We don't know whether or not he had help.
So even though it is chaotic, there's some things we
(08:21):
absolutely know to do, and that is get the victims
to you.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I think first and foremost it's take care of any
living oh.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Right, yes, yes, yes, of course. But I'm saying if
I know I've got a you know, a murdered victim,
I know they go to you so that I don't
have to think about yes.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Right, And so that's the thing. It's, you know, it's
maybe a dual pronged approach.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
If you will get the living injured to the er,
get the you know, tragically murdered kids in this case
to the morgue, and like really, then.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
The other evidence is static.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Right, you can take hours to process the you can't
really work around you know, having the bodies there, having
injured victims there. That really complicates your work, probably even more.
You know, I've done a lot of crime scene work
myself when there's murdered victim or victims at the scene,
(09:19):
and really the police just you know, it's a dual
pronged approach where we are there photographing the victim at
the scene, but then after that, let's you know, bag
them and roll, you know, roll out of here. And
then once we're in the autopsy suite, you know, what
we're doing is we're X raying the bodies. We're trying
(09:39):
to my investigators are now working on identifying these kids.
You know, maybe at the scene we can get a
lead on a name, but think about it, kids aren't
going to have fingerprints in the system, right or a
driver's license or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So we're really working with basic you know who is this?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Is there a school administrator, a school fo kodos that
can help us get a lead. And you know what
did I do Tuesday night? I filled out an emergency
contact card for my daughter.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
When she started school Wednesday.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
So I hate to say it, that's going to come
into play because once we know that, you know, that's
how you contact the parents.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
And the reality is you've got parents rushing to that school,
and you've got two parents that are not being met
up with their child.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And I hate to say, you don't want to be
left in that, you know, process of elimination, because then
we know the horrible ending, you know, And I.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Was like, who do I put on this card?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Right?
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Oh my god, They're having me fill this out year
after year. Why everybody knows me? Everybody knows dia. But
this is why we do it, right, the emergency contact
the kids' allergies. I mean, it may come that the
parents aren't able to contact the I'm talking about the
living individuals, right, but sometimes the kids might not know
(10:59):
what they're They're so young, they might not know what
they're allergic to. But that information can be provided to
treating physicians. Think about it, wounds, meat, antibiotics and stuff
like that. So even that like medical history you give
to the school can come into play.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
For the living kids and you know staff.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
So what happens is, yeah, we'll start from like coming
through the door of the morgue. We're gonna first anytime
there's trauma, we're gonna get X.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Rays, full body x rays.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
And then what we're gonna do is, really this is
a homicide, So there's gonna be trace evidence. I mean,
if they've been shot, I don't know, if there's shrapnel
like on their body, We're gonna bag their clothes. We're
gonna clip their fingernails for any DNA. Potentially, we take
(11:50):
full sets of fingerprints for every homicide victim, you know,
document all their clothing and heartbreaking it's probably a school
uniform given that it's a Catholic school. And then we're
going to do the same thing we talked about in
episodes past, right, it's a very systematic approach. Now in
(12:10):
this case, the external is even more complex because there
are injuries. Okay, and by injuries I mean gunshot wounds.
And let me step back though, you know, you don't
want to just go back and sort of look at
the obvious, like the gunshot wounds. You know, I don't
know if these kids were crawling or they fell or
(12:32):
anything in the process of being shot. It's a horrible
way to think about it. But they can sustain other
injuries other than gunshot wounds too, right in the process
of the of the chaos. And so I always say that,
you know, I testify in court it's my job to
document every nick and scratch on the body. Doesn't mean
(12:54):
that that's a lethal injury, but that's still an injury.
So the external is very thoroughly done basically with a
you know, very systematic approach very uh, you know, head
to toe, like I told you, I always do, then
the right side of the body, the left side of
(13:15):
the body, and then the back of the body.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
But every time we're doing this, we're looking for.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
A bruise, a cut, any external materials they're broken glass, metal,
you know, anything that was shot through that kind of
fiber evidence. And then then what we're doing is once
the body is undressed, taking photos of every single gunshot wound.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
There I take at least three.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Photos per gunshot wound, like a distant one, a medium range,
and then a close up. Then each of these gunshot wounds,
we measure from the top of the head and right
and left of midline, so we can you're giving coordinates
if you will, on the body to exactly place where
(14:01):
these are located. And remember these are children, so like
the measurements are.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Going to be smaller, you know what I mean. And
that's what is really heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Well, let me ask you something, because you mentioned something
a couple of times and it's the most accurate thing
ever in a situation like this, I used to be
able to work cases, move on, come home, not think
about them, and then I had a child. I'm going
(14:36):
to tell you something. The first child case I worked
after that, I was pitiful.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah, it just.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Something happens, right, I mean all those switches, like I'm
reprogrammed in a way, you are reprogrammed, and you can't
stop it. You can't help it, you can't see it
the same as you used to. You can't be just
detached anymore. It's like I have two grown children, they're
both in their twenties. I can be at a grocery
(15:07):
store and hear a little child say Mama, and I'm turning.
I'm turning around.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Who needs me?
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I know it ain't my child. I don't have a
little one, but I am, just as you say, programmed,
who needs me? And the idea that I am running
to a school where I cannot find my child, and
then I've got to drive to a mord to identify them,
only to learn exactly what happened in such a horrific manner.
(15:41):
I'm gonna tell you I don't like to go pick
up evidence at a MORD. I will pull in the
parking lot, i will survey are there any personal cars here?
If it's all police cars and medical examiners cars, I'll
go straight in. Yeah, But if I say a bunch
of personal cars, I'm a wait a minute, because I
(16:03):
know what's happening inside there. And one, I think they
need all the privacy in the world. And number two,
if I see it or hear it, I can't forget it.
So for you, you not only have to work this crime,
you have to deal with the parents on a level
that most people won't ever have to deal with them.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
So that is, yeah, I can. It's a very loaded,
you know response for me as a mom. So I
went back to work at eight weeks after having my
daughter and probably so three months so when she was
an infant three months of age or four months of age.
I had my first infant autopsy after coming back from
(16:48):
maternity leave and pregnancy leave, and they actually and my
chief definitely stepped up and said are you okay to
do this? And I remember thinking that is she was
a woman who also was a mom, and that was
a very sensitive like question, and I said, yeah, I am,
you know, And I think first of all, it was
good for me to be back at work wearing that hat, right,
(17:10):
And for me, I always treat children. I'm pretty obsessive.
I mean, I'm pretty obsessive about a lot of things,
but type A as people like to say. But I
got called hawkeye in my fellowship because I would pick
up and subtle details. And I think that is the
(17:33):
level of analysis I bring to any child death, you know.
So being a mom, I think gives me more ownership
and be like, Okay, I got to do a damn
good job, you know, like there's no message around, and
I think that's what allows me to push forward, okay,
(17:54):
because if you get lost in emotion and I and
I do learn to come part mentalize, right, Like that's
the whole point. Just like they say, you don't treat
your loved ones if you're a surgeon or a doctor,
because you can't remove yourself emotionally. You don't autopsy anybody,
you know, because it becomes emotional. You know, you can't compartmentalize.
(18:18):
But when I have to put my doctor hat on,
especially God, I can't even imagine in a tragedy like this.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
It's on.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
It's on, like uh you know for those some listening
on like Donkey Kong, it is. You know, we are
working and we are not messing around. And that's how
I look at it, because I owe these parents every
answer I owe this child. I'm the last doctor this
child is seeing and you know, God help me, it
(18:48):
is going to be a detailed report. I'm not missing anything.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Awesome, Doctor Prea. Thank you for your service, thank you
for this information today, and thank you. Thank you were
just being who you are. You were a friend of everybody.
And you know, I know this case hits you different.
We talked several days ago. Uh we even talked this morning,
so I know what this case means to you. So
(19:16):
I just appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I'm gonna go hug my daughter right now. Amen.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
You know that's all you can do, and you know,
be put some good into the world to fight this evil.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
No one deserves it.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.